Federico Kunze Küllmer: Evmos – The Ethereum Virtual Machine on Cosmos #437

Transcript

welcome to epicenter the show which talks about the technologies projects and people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution i'm sebastian cucchio today i'm speaking with federico kunsei kurma he's the co-founder of evmos the ceo of the company that is driving that project tharsis and he was previously a an engineer over at tendermint he's sort of an og in the cosmos and interchain ecosystem this interview was recorded on a new podcast that i'm launching it's called the interop and it's all about understanding the decentralized economic networks that make up the inner chain the cosmos ecosystem and i hope to get a better understanding of the topology of the

internet of blockchains and the technologies that make it possible this is a podcast for developers and investors and i hope to have really in-depth technical conversations with the people that i interview similar to the kinds of interviews that we do on epicenter but also uh discuss the long term prospects for the interchain and cosmos ecosystem so part of the interview will be released here on epicenter and the remaining third of the interview the last part which talks about uh the recent hiccups around the launch of fmos will be released on the interop podcast and so there will be a link in the show notes of this episode that takes you to the different youtube channels and

uh podcast uh apps where you can listen and subscribe to the podcast and i hope you'll subscribe because it's gonna be a lot of fun and we'll be diving deep into the cosmos ecosystem and everything that's going on there right now before we go to the interview i'd like to tell you about our sponsors for this week periswap is a multi-chain dex aggregator this means that through paraswap you can easily access the liquidity of various decentralized exchanges the protocol automatically finds the cheapest liquidity for you so that you can trade knowing that you're getting the best price for your trade per swap is also gas friendly which helps you keep your transaction costs low they also recently added support for avalanche polygon bsc and phantom and you can use paraswap directly in larger live if you use the ledger wallet

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note as a service offering leverages their highly available and proven infrastructure enabling you to participate directly in decentralized networks head over to chorus.one to start your staking journey today and course one is also expanding their team and if you want to make your career in the exciting field of crypto and staking make sure to head over to chorus.one and check out their open positions and with that here's my interview on the interrupt podcast with fedex welcome to the interrupt this is a podcast about understanding the decentralized economic networks which make up the inner chain and my hope is that my listeners will gain a better understanding of the topology of these networks the technologies that make it

possible and the opportunities that it provides to investors and developers i'm sebastian i'm a podcaster and investor i'm here today with feliko kunsai kulma who's the co-founder of fmos and the ceo of tharsis uh thanks for joining me fedex hey savacion uh thanks uh for having me today really excited to be part of the interrupt and also this new venture that you're starting this is a new podcast it's called the interop this episode is going to go out on epicenter which is my my other podcast but also go out on the interop so it's a bit of a cross promotion here to get people in the epicenter universe

uh to also you know start uh listening to the interop because there's so much happening in the interchange ecosystem right now and i think like there's a lot of interest for it and we've seen that like with all of this new content coming out and what i want to do with this podcast is um bring more technical discussions so the kinds of conversations that we have on epicenter you know the very deep technical discussions but that also go like kind of high level and looking at the ecosystem um you know i i like a 10 000 feet level i want to have those conversations about about the inner chain and the cosmic ecosystem but yeah for for listeners who aren't familiar with you i mean you've been in the tendermint uh and cosmos uh kind of ecosystem for a really long time you were like an early employee at

tendermint um tell us a bit about like you know how your background i think also sunny is the person who um kind of got you hired at tendermint or introduced you to the tendermint organization back in the day like give us a bit of a background here like how you came into into this world yeah as you mentioned i i was one of the i would say like first employees uh a tendermint um but more importantly i was also like one of the first interns from tendermint so i was part of um blockchain berkeley as part of my semester abroad that i did on user berkeley and well being at blockchain berkeley

sunny had just dropped out during that semester and he started working at cosmos tendermint and sunny saw my work that i was doing with the blockchain berkeley organization and working with different uh fortune 500 companies developing smart contracts etc and he introduced me to the tendermint team that was working super hard back then uh was post ico so they were like working super hard on uh developing all the functionalities of cosmos back in the day they started working on the cosmos sck they had uh peggy and they also had uh of course etherment which is a precursor

project of atmos and they saw my work and um yeah i applied for an internship and i started working with him and then once i graduated i moved to a full-time position and relocated to berlin yeah because you were initially working from the san francisco office i think and then you then moved to the berlin office where you're now based what was it like in the early days of working at a tendermint um what was the vibe there dude it was super rush there were so many projects going on there was uh peggy which was a former name of gravity bridge as well um

etherement uh tendermint core and cosmos sdk and gaia which initially was only part of the cosmos sdk but then like it uh it was moved to another code base so that you can have like separation of concerns and the cosmos have could uh evolve into its own particular code base with different functionalities etc um like the ones we now see with gravity decks etc um yeah so lots of projects uh teams working on on all these different initiatives um interns working on and everything back in the day

um when i joined full-time i was working on the uh boyjager wallet i'm not sure if you remember that with jordan and fabo they were the first ones to introduce ui for cosmos with the governance they implement we implemented also the ledger um the ledger ui for to connect directly with uh the ledger cosmos applications that had just launched and yeah it was uh exciting times back in the days and when did you start working on putting an evm on on tendermint i think you were part of the first uh kind of team within

uh the tenement organization to start working on that project so i didn't work exactly on etherement back in the days i was mostly working on either voyager peggy so gravity bridge and i also worked on uh the cosmos sdk uh but when so like initially etherman which was his first uh iteration of evm on top of uh the tendermint consensus tendermint core consensus engine um it was developed first as a tendermint application which is the base layer that the cosmos sdk now implements and then

he migrated fully to um like a cosmos application so a cosmos based chain and that took a while and was spearheaded by jackson polling who coincidentally was hired to pm the etherman project and then once once more resources were required for the cosmos hub he switched teams and started working on on that project um we were also working with alex bess yeah bess was the core contributor for a long time and also started working on etherement and then migrated entirely to the cosmos sdk and the rest of the

tendermint core and basically he's he's been working on the full like the full stack of cosmos applications for a while so yeah i i worked yeah but so back to your original question when did i start working it was uh in 2020 when i was a contracting for chainsafe um so after i left tenderman i started freelancing and working for different entities and and one of them was uh [Music] one of them was a chainsafe and i started working on etherman because they had received a grant from the icf to work on internment so

i want to get straight into atmos here and uh you know i i heard you say on a community call i think it was a couple weeks ago that um what you're doing is difficult and um you know i i think you know it's it's difficult enough to build uh to to build applications on blockchains there's all sorts of things that need to be taken into account that perhaps um are abstracted away in you know web development or like more mature development environments there's just the fact that it's decentralized you have to take you have all these stakeholders into account um there's the fact that you know like you have to keep

the the chain secure with like validators or miners and but you guys are adding like an extra complexity onto this which is uh you know like marrying these two technologies that weren't uh made like weren't made to work together initially i think and yeah i'm coming at this with like uh not not a very technical uh eye but like it seems to me that these technologies are are are not um well suited to go together can you break down like why building an evm on tenement consensus uh and and then like integrating ibc in to that technology stack is so complex so

the main problem that we see in integrating not only into the call to tender minutes specifically but to the rest of the cosmos ecosystem is the lack of support for ethereum tools ethereum keys so for example one very particular case that has been super hard for us to like go through and we had to take we we had to make like really tough decisions in terms of like how can we improve user experience was the the lack of support for ethereum keys on the cosmos ecosystem um because cosmos only supports one type of key that is the ones that it's shared

across the cosmos hub etc so like when you create your address it's always in that key format um we see which is sac p 256k one um coincidentally ethereum also implements that uh key but has a different derivation for the private key to the address so the address generated with the same key is different and that results in just imagine you going to kepler wallet and opening your tab and then if you export that private key and then you import it to say metamask you have a completely different key um like a different address so to say that's one case and then the other thing just like

missed things like for example the address format on ethereum is hex addresses like 0x blah blah blah unknown um cosmos you have like bec32 so you need to create compatibility for the user to in order to okay i'm now using a cosmos address i should expect to use the back 32 the bec32 format so like the ones that start with cosmos or ev or mmos in our case or uh osmo osmosis um so you have like all these formats that are different that's more like on the ux kind of thing um and then on top of that

you have the problem that in the in tendermint consensus um it's bfd so fast finality so there's no concept of a pending state so when you have to wait for the transactions to finalize sometimes on ethereum you have like transaction pending on the on on ether scan um like all this functionality that on tendermint is is now there because there's never i don't know there's never been a use case that needs to support handling pending state because like the status is committed to the chain yeah it's not probabilistic like in like an ethereum

or proof of proof of work blockchains so it goes through the mempool the transaction is verified internally and then broadcasted to the rest of the network and then the the transaction is finalized but on on ethereum do you actually need to have a probabilistic finality so like a nakamoto consensus where uh that they there needs to be like confirmations uh for the transactions in order to be included to the to the heaviest um subtree as well i'm not exactly sure how uh polygon works under the hood but my understanding is that polygon is uh

is an evm chain on on tendermint right what's different about polygon and evmos aside from the fact that maybe there's ibc on atmos so the main difference is the architecture polygon was created in a way to entirely support the ethereum ecosystem and to create checkpoints to the ethereum blockchain so you can even though you have fast finality on the tendermint consensus you can you can eventually roll back to the previous uh to the previous uh blogs if um if needed be so the

the approach here is different and then i i think they're working on a cosmos sake but they're still implementing checkpointing this taking the staking approach is different so it's not very modular and i think they're working on like an sdk as well um a polygon sdk so that they can have more uh chains that are evm compatible in their ecosystem but the the modular approach they have is very different from the ones that we can find right nowadays on cosmos because they don't need to run into this issue of like oh compatibility between cosmos and ethereum and and they took the approach of like

creating the or drafting the entire architecture based on ethereum so they don't have to handle any of the cosmos cases okay yeah i understood and when when ethereum starts moving uh when the evm i mean like basically ethereum two is going to be fast finality proof of stake uh are are there aspects of like the e2 evm or whatever that should look like that uh make it easier for evmos to implement where you don't have to take into account this this technical debt that has to do with proof of work um

so most of the components from proof of work we actually are are not relevant to us so for example the on the json rpc then minor namespace or setting the coinbase address for the miner like all that stuff so like the the validator itself is the one that is um like using all these functionality itself and it's all handled through the cosmis component of atmos which is which are the cosmos sdk modules um whereas on ethereum it's all handled through like internal geth architecture or like in this case uh um yeah the the eth2 architecture

so like one big thing is like even though ethereum i evolved to each 2.0 um we still need to ensure that compatibility with some of the existing tooling and so there are two approaches here either you reduce compatibility with say metamasks or other evm explorers clients etc tools or by for example just implementing the evm and you define your own say json rpc endpoints and whatever um which will cause all these clans to

break or you start you need to all the time try to catch up with the latest developments or the latest versions uh supported of maine and on ethereum so there's a double effort in in terms of like supporting all the cosmos ecosystem tooling uh supporting all the ethereum ecosystem tooling and trying to catch up with whatever the latest state of ethereum is and implement new functionalities on top of that so our dream our team which is uh fairly small is able to quickly adapt and catch up with ethereum and implement all this new functionality for the evm uh for the atmospm and also implement new functionality in terms of like token

economics um interoperability etc so we're looking to hire more core engineers and also full stock engineers that can help us like merge and marry these two uh ecosystem into a single user experience that is uh really smooth for the end user yeah so let's let's talk about this like so there's lots of things here i think that need to be unpacked so you know the the user experience the ecosystem of applications the types of features and you know you talked about tokenomics and um evmost had a novel approach to launching the chain which was the wreck

drop it's been covered extensively and i don't want to go like too much in the details here but you know just uh for you know i i think most of our listeners will be familiar with the fact that there was an attempt to launch uh fmos a couple of weeks ago um that attempt um well for lack of a better term it failed and we'll get into what happened later in the interview but what is the current state of affairs and um how you know how does this um affect you know effectively either the the enthusiasm around the network launching and have you seen any uh

evidence that what was like like a highly i think hyped project with a lot of enthusiasm have you seen any evidence that that is going away or is the community you know or is is the community like uh confident and and sort of supporting you and your efforts to relaunch the chain the upgrade as you mentioned didn't go as smooth as we wanted to um there were like different bugs especially because of the the lack of support from different like cosmos tools and uh there were also like some [Music] edge cases that we had to handle in terms of ibc because now besides having like all the

functionality on cosmos the functionality on the evm we also need to handle all these edge cases for um for ivc and yeah definitely and i think the hype has lowered a little bit i am confident that once we launch again and we restart the chain the hype will continue and but mostly because users will be able to claim their tokens um through the dashboard super easy and um will be able to like stake their tokens natively and there are also a lot of projects already trying to build and

deploy navimos and also like a few of them are uh creating earth uh creating um a few airdrops so that the community can also like benefit early on and and i think the earlier the users start to stake and on and use their tokens for lping it's etc um the quicker the hype will return i think it goes also been really humbling for us for the team so then we're not here for the hype but we're also like trying to build as much as possible and try to i don't know improve our processes improve the functionality that we want

to bring and ensure that we implement the changes and this is one key difference with other evm ecosystems i believe is that we are not only tackling this from like core protocol perspective like the infrastructure that supports the smart contracts but we're also trying to push for products that support um the protocol so like the dashboard um we've been closely working with kepler in order to support ethereum signing we are adding for example metamask support for cosmos transactions so then users can use um their metamouse wallet with

cosmos on ethereum so like trying to create this user experience natively and we need to ensure that this is not only supported on the in the protocol side but it's also supported on the product side and i think the the protocol itself was ready i think what was missing was more qa in terms of like the tooling and um the product itself and uh how are you doing through all this uh how are you holding up through this uh this ordeal yeah it was hard during the the first week i think but um our team is also very supportive and the community is

very supportive um i think a lot of people were like super hyped and also the price of the token and whatnot but um for the ones that know us and we we've been working on building for so long and we were the only team that was able to finally launch this after more than more than six years already so [Music] yeah we went back and building to build and be able to support these new functionalities that we wanted to add and and go back to the drawing board and test every functionality that we wanted so i'm yeah i've been able to hold up with the

support of friends family and also the community that is supporting us but i think once we restart the chain it's going to be like the best user experience you will see yeah i'm really uh we'll we'll talk about like the launch plan and everything towards the end here but yeah let's let's dive into uh you know some of the um some of the things that uh evmos uh brings in terms of innovation to the evm like currently or like when the chain launches but then also uh yeah you know into the future and the road map for the chain um yeah can you can you break all that down for us yeah so we now have a bunch of projects

that are looking to deploy to atmos in the first uh week or two after restarting um including ave on other blue chip projects and we have a lot of new projects that are deploying into the fms ecosystem because they saw the potential of like the new token the innovative talking token model that we created so there are multiple branches in terms of like the feature roadmap that we want to implement them one of them is of course called protocol like what is the team going to support in the future besides just avm and on on the default interoperability that cosmos allows you and then the others the other side is like what are we doing in terms of

products in order to support these all these use cases um and in terms of their protocol we've been also like working closely with celestia for seven months and this is something that we're really looking forward to implement and eventually deploy once celestia is ready uh which is um a settlement layer for celestia roll-ups so it's basically i roll up on like supporting evm roll ups on top of atmos evm and that's one thing the other thing is working on interoperability and uh interpretability not only in the sense of transferring assets we are already supporting erc20 tokens um to be transferred

in and out from the atmos chain but we're also looking forward to enable interchange composibility so that chains like somalia or region network who have specific use cases targeting d5 can directly call smart contracts deployed in atmos and make sense of that data by unpacking the events and then um realizing okay like here's here's the event data that was logged uh on the evms smart contract what am i gonna do with that and then like they handle like specific use cases like for example in some earlier they can rebalance op positions or work directly with ave

so this brings a lot of benefits in terms of reduces latency if you're using gravity bridge or any other bridge accessing any existing bridge currently deployed in the ecosystem because ivc will drastically increase the latency and then the the transaction fees will be way lower so i expect a lot of interest in this functionality from other teams um in order to support communication directly with smart contracts and that's one thing the other in particular is nfd uh nfd interpretability we're also working closely with um the stargaze team in order to

transfer nfts from the from the atmos avm into the cosmo awesome environment that they use and so like making interoperable nfds um it's going to be something huge for the rest of the ecosystem and for game fi in particular so that we can support application specific blockchains or us application specific evms that are directly sharing security with atmos for example and be able to directly use this functionality to transfer nft assets and yeah like that's that's more or less what we're doing and in the future we're

also going to be supporting chain nfd like delegate calls from one chain to another and then yeah once you once we implement that we'll be able to share composability between uh evm chains so that uh a chain that is on a smart contract that is deployed on fmos can uh communicate directly with a smart contract that is deployed for example on chronos or other evm chain that will be deployed in the future so um i really want to dive into this uh in this interoperability aspect because i think there's different components of it that um maybe at least i i don't fully understand so if you're used to using

uh if you're used to using sort of like interchange or ibc assets uh you you can move assets from one chain to the other so if you have assets on uh you have like atoms you can move those atoms over to uh to osmosis for instance and then those atoms live there and then you can move them back to another so from the user perspective it's seamless and uh i think like people kind of understand that once they've used it what's that going to look like for evmos so i i pers the way i'm thinking about it is like okay so you'll be able to move assets outside of evmos but these are not uh ibc assets or like erc20 tokens or kind

of evm tokens and then what's the interaction with other evms so uh what you know ethereum or polygon or what how does that uh how does atmos create interoperability also with those chains so the evidence interoperability uh components are yeah there are multiple and the main one of course is ivc in the in the cosmos ecosystem so ivc allows us as you mentioned to transfer native assets from the cosmos from osmosis directly into the atmos

but unfortunately the the native functionality for of ivc doesn't allow conversions of those tokens directly to um to the atmos avm so you need to create sort of like uh a mapping between like your c20 tokens on cosmos ivc tokens so for example like a cosmos uh hub atom or an osmosis token that has been that has been transferred over via ibc how do you represent now those tokens within the avm and how then those tokens are bridged over which is the second component i want to talk about how are

those tokens now reach over uh through their erc20 representation to other chains and that's going to be through nomad and connects and other bridges that we are deploying on atmos so we're gonna see an influx of all these erc-20 tokens from all these different chains uh polygon avalanche and uh ethereum of course um moon river and moonbeam to the atmos and cosmos ecosystem and then those tokens those erc20 tokens will be able to be converted to the cosmos ibc representation so that they can be

transferred over to cosmos travel or osmosis so it's going to create a lot of liquidity so we expect atmos to become the main point of entry from all the evm ecosystem for all these assets to come through these ridges to ethnos and then through this functionality that we're allowing these year c20 tokens to be converted those tokens will now be able to be transferred via ivc to the rest of the cosmos ecosystem okay so let's just take an example here let's say i have uh usdc on [Music] on on ethereum or or even polygon

or like an evm chain that supports usdc uh i'll have to move those through a bridge which will either so right now you've talked about nomad and connects so those are two separate bridges that will be evm have most compatible move those assets into evmos and then from there you can take those usdc assets uh there's a some sort of conversion that happens that you allows you to move them into the native interchain uh assets that we're all used to moving around it's like changing the address format

more or less um you're you're changing the format for how the token is represented on chain either like an erc20 token format or it's a cosmos token format okay and will those be fungible like say you move from from connects or you move them from no bad are those going to be fungible once they're in fmos yeah so there's a direct mapping so uh governance approved uh token pair so that the computer is just a mapping between the cosmos and the erc20 asset so that um there's only one canonical representation for say w eth on ethereum for um

uscc so that there's like uh only one token um so that this ensures fungibility and then this token will be able to be transferred via ibc to other chains okay and is fungibility also ensured so they're insured via these two bridges but is it ensured like is it is a polygon usdc or a polygon wrapped eth equivalent or informable to a ethereum wrapped eth once it arrives in atmos or those still kind of separate tokens so the the the fungibility needs to be

the fungibility between like all these bridges is something that we're currently working with multiple teams frox is already working it's also deploying on atmos and so yeah like as you mentioned there they're going to be like multiple bridges it's the same as with the same as the problem with ivc and fungibility when you relay the same token via via different sort of like ivc routes um the tokens are not fundable because there are different security guarantees in all these different chains that the token has passed through so that someone needs to basically assume the risk and um having

i wouldn't say like economic average because it's not maintained by the team but there's like a preferred way of routing all these different chains it has different options on security levels also helps in terms of fungibility i would expect different also like d5 protocols state like curve or i think it's kinesis the name of the project that is also going to do like stable swat um state a stable coin amm [Music] um so yeah to handle all these fungibility issue yeah i was talking to the kinesis guys uh the other day and it seems like they want to

address this fungibility issue which exists like it's independent of utmost right this exists already in the ethereum ecosystem and there was some debate you know around i think it was a couple months ago where like about which bridges should uh be should be allowed on osmosis and like sunny weighed in with like his opinion which was we need to limit um or like at least for now we can't create an experience where there's all these representations of the same assets which creates like a user experience that's degraded for friend users um like we've seen on ethereum wherever you

have like 20 different representations of usd assets for example like on the same um on the same uh liquidity pool uh or like on the same like on unit swap for instance so why are there two bridges why why nomad and connects and why not like a canonical bridge um so nomad and connects are able to provide it's it's sort of like the same breach under like underlying bridge it's uh connects is using like nomad infrastructure but there are different options for um in terms of speed of the transfer in terms of like because it's an optimistic bridge

and there are different like pros and cons of using like an optimistic bridge in terms of latency or like how like if the transaction is optimistic and then you you have this uh a period that you can uh that you can challenge basically the transfer um so they're they're more or less two sides of the same coin um in terms of like using the same infrastructure by offering different like options to the user okay and will what what about the sort of interchange accounts and the ability for like uh

an address on like on cosmos or on osmosis to control addresses and smart contracts on fmos what what is that going to be possible and what kinds of things does that allow yeah so interchange accounts is a it's a functionality that we're really interesting to work on um we we wanted to implement it for for a minute but unfortunately the the ivc release wasn't ready um so one of the cool things that we want to support is for example like you have all these funds all these evaluators that have tons of atoms tons of osmosis and other chain and other tokens

but how do you how do you manage the token safely uh in an organization right now on on on cosmos you need to create a multisig like a two out of three and there's no ui for it if you've used a costumes multistick you know the paints that i'm that that i'm explaining to you right now because it's it's really hard uh we even we've been core uh core contributors and core engineers of the costumes ecosystem for a while now and even us we have an internal guide of how to make a transfer with the cosmos multisig which only is supported on the terminal cli yeah this is this is a this

is a huge pain point i think in in cosmos it's a huge family yeah and uh one of the big things that we want to support is for accounts on the cosmos have on osmosis to be able to manage and um assets on and for example gnosis multisig so you can have the same assets and and you can just use gnosis multisig for everything um and manage your cosmos uh coins your um your osmosis your atmosphere c20s and yeah like atmos tokens as well so it's it's going to be like improving the user experience is

something that we really care about and using all these interoperability functionalities to also benefit the rest of the cosmos ecosystem i think it's going to be like a key component here yeah i mean that being able to use a product like gnosis multisig on uh on cosmos would be just like amazing i think you know they've really nailed the multisig um ux and and feature set and um i mean i i'm also kind of surprised that no one's built this already on on cosmos maybe it'll come i mean like you got the guys working on dow dow and there's like some [Music] you know multi-sig there but it's kind

of clunky still and the ux isn't great and you can't add addresses and the potential is there but it's it's not it's not a production product yeah i think you can in the contracts but like the contracts support those calls but you still have to do like a you know command line um thing to to get that to work yeah so what what what will be the d5 component what kind of d5 applications will be launched on fmos you mentioned ave earlier uh but are there native projects uh that are uh anticipated to launch there and i think like broadly what what will be the defy experience on fmos and how will

it be different from what we're used to in ethereum and and maybe how is it different from osmosis what does it bring to the table for the team it's more or less the same but now it enables them to so for all these um chains to access the token directly via ivc and for the token to be transferred via ibc which also provides more liquidity to the project additionally you have the token model that allows users and users for these all these protocols to spend 50 of the transaction fee

uh on on those 50 transaction fee goes to the validators and 50 of the transaction fee goes to the develop the developer team uh so the contract owners and so like that is able to fund additional sources um like and provide additional funding for the team that's more like uh like why is it better it's able it has lower transaction fees it has additional liquidity sources so from all these evm chains and also from the cosmos ecosystem and with the new interchange composability components as i mentioned before other chains will

be directly able to interact with these smart contracts via ivc and also the smart contracts on atmos will be able to call at the other smart contracts that are supported on the evm on the fms evm on other chains for example so you don't need you don't need to fragment composability at all okay got it so the the that's one thing i i remember hearing about but i forgot is that um transaction fees can go in in in a d5 application on fmo's transaction fees can go to the liquidity provider but they could also go to

or sorry not transaction fees but the swap fees can also go to the validator yeah so the the key thing here is normally on ethereum and this is this is also a key difference with the rest of the vm ecosystem is on ethereum and other evm ecosystems if you're paying the transaction fee that transaction fee is going directly to the blog proposer either the miner or the validator here instead the main difference is that 50 goes to the developer and then 50 goes to the blog proposal to the developer right to the developer of the

of the of the contract of the contract yeah yes what this creates effectively is a decentralized uh marketplace a decentralized app store where the users that are interacting with the with the product with a defile application are paying 50 of the transaction fee to the developer and 50 of the transaction fee to the block proposer and it's not that they are paying an extra fifty percent it's just that the fee that they're already paying uh same as ethereum or other evm chains is now being split between the two like the two organizations or the or the developer and the blog proposer uh well this ensures like alignment of

with their protocol itself so the dividers still get the rewards that they're generated during the validation of the protocol and on proof of stake plus they gave 50 percent of the transaction fees but now you're also incentivizing all these developers to com deploy their applications to fms and these create a larger it's like chicken and egg problem like how do you instant how do you bring in more users if there are no applications and um through this you're also incentivizing new developers to come in and deploy um through this um what we call the app store model so this is a really

novel uh i think uh functionality in in blockchains generally i don't think that there's any other chain that does this where the smart contract developers are also remunerated for transaction fees um do you think this is something that other chains will adopt like is this something that you could see kind of spreading in the evm ecosystem as well yeah i think there are a lot of i mean so if you think about the way of funding a team right now the teams either um raise funding uh for the company like

traditional sources of funding go to vc go to like early angel investors and they provide like um yeah they they dilute themselves in order to attract new investors and then you also have like the token model where they launch a new token and they disrupt that and the team holds a large percentage of the token um but if you think about it there hasn't been a like a sustainable long sustainable funding mechanism that is directly correlated with the usage of the application so the more users interact with the

application here on mmos the more transaction fees the developer again so it's a long sustainable and it's and it's in parallel to these two other funding models that i i mentioned before but it's a more like it's a healthier one in the long term because it's a it allows to generate uh continuous revenue to the developer team yeah it like totally changes the economics i think for the developer team and um when a developer launches a contract uh are these are these parameters that you can set say okay i want to take like 50 or i can take less or like if i don't

want to have any other transaction like you know different different uh different contracts might have um uh different ideas about how these fees should be uh repetition between the miners or the validators and the and the contracts uh or the teams um is this like by default or is it something that you can set up yeah so it's set by default um or or like this this is something that we need to we need to still analyze with with the core team um but for now the the current specification that we have it's it's set in by default but what you can do as a developer is if you don't want to

actually earn these rewards you can set the address that you want to instead of you the developer team receiving 50 of the transaction fees you could um redirect those uh tokens to the community pool if you want or to the validators itself so you can get the validator address um and then reward the router or if you want to allocate those tokens to like the entire pool of validators you can also distribute them to the entire pool validators um so there are different options here and you can even you can even like set another contract uh developer

address or or fund another contract uh through this mechanism yeah where you could fund some charity or something exactly and uh that's totally up to the developer and they can change the address whenever they want does does that do i mean do you think that so let's say we have developer because then you you it seems like you get in this situation where developers are competing also for their transactions to get processed so like if a developer uh is awarding more of the transaction fees to the validators so awarding less transaction

fees for themselves then there may be an incentive for those transactions to go through um first is that is that something that is is taking into account here or does that not really come into play at the moment so at the moment the trans the uh tendermint mempool only supports uh um first in first out queue so you send a transaction with say a hundred tokens in fees and then you send a transaction with a thousand tokens in fees the one that was processed before is actually executed before unless you run some like fork of tendermint where you modify the

mempo internals completely um it's not currently supported but i think the next major tendermint version is supporting like prioritized q and we'll definitely need to take that into account but the current the current model doesn't support it um straight ahead and but yeah this is something well depending when this functionality is released we'll need to take into account so if we if we deploy this functionality first we don't need to account for this particular um case but once we want to upgrade to the latest uh tenderman version we'll have to we'll have to consider this for sure

okay yeah um and what what other kinds of innovative things is evmos uh does it are integrated in atmos that you know don't exist in other evm chains or what other innovative things that are are are you implementing in the token model so the other innovative thing that we took from existing default applications is the concept of usage rewards so if you read the rec drop token model you can see that we airdrop tokens to users on ethereum based on the gas that they've spent

um which is called the gastro model and the more you spend on gas on different contracts the more tokens you get air drop and so we wanted to implement this on the protocol level for users that interact natively with different contracts so what we're doing is taking the alp incentive model that osmosis has uh so like incentivizing the liquidity pools we're implementing this but for smart contracts so the more gas you spend on smart contracts uh the more usage rewards you'll get so you're incentivizing certain contracts so for example bridging could be incentivized or amm swaps could be or like i don't

know like an nft marketplace could be incentivized and this is all booted through governance so the community votes for which are going to be the contracts that are going to be incentivized yeah you define a number of weeks that you want these incentives to run and then you yeah you're basically incentivizing on all the users that interact with this contract so it's going to be like a growth hack mechanism because now if you have this contract that is incentivized and also the developers are getting transaction fees the users are getting

tokens just for using the application but they're paying with the transaction fees right and then half of those transaction field will go directly to the developer team which will attract more developers more contracts and incentivize and more users interact with their protocol itself so it's creating a positive reinforcement cycle in which you are attracting more developers and more users over time so you know are are you confident that fmos will also act as a growth hacking mechanism for the interchain ibc ecosystem because like you know as a as a developer

it makes sense to go deploy your contract there um there's going to be a number of blue chip uh uh number of blue chip um [Music] ethereum adapts that are going to deploy there like ave is one of them um the liquidity it'll be pretty seamless to move liquidity in and out of fmos yeah kepler is very supported natively with ethereum metamouse is supported natively with traditional ethereum signing plus customers signing transactions through eip 712 which is a meta transaction standard so now with metamask you can sign ibc

so you don't need to add any new functionality to the existing project or to a new york system client you just need to support erp 712 if you are using like a ui for example yeah i think it's going to be huge for the ecosystem because attracting new developers and new pro a new projects in general and new users that are native from the ethereum ecosystem it's also going to attract more tokens more use cases for the interchange ecosystem yeah i i was part of the core ivc team and were close with other teams in the ecosystem so all these functionality that is going to be

deployed on atmos is going to be available to the entire cosmos ecosystem through ibc and this is something that we're not going to try to for example like capture all these values only for the fmos chain but we want all these all this liquidity to come into the cosmos ecosystem all these different use cases to come into the cosmos ecosystem all this new functionality from the ethereum tool used um from this ethereum tooling that already works and is already supported by multiple teams it's going to be available for like the one that i explained with the multisig is going to be available for the rest of the

cosmos ecosystem um through interchange accounts for example yeah and all of the dow tooling and all i mean all the yeah i mean this is just like solidity and the evm have such an advance i think uh like any other other blockchain in terms of tooling um yeah i think this makes so much sense and something i tweeted about um just before the call and then we're really excited to work on is creating like a product um for new products to make it super easy to deploy contracts to avemos but also but also

airdropping new tokens to atmos takers to gas gustler contracts so the same that we implemented for the gas drop on the reg drop mac on direct drop will be available for users to just like select those parameters filter the con fill like select some filters like um leave out some centralized exchanges select a few validators they want set up minimum amount set up a minimum amount of gas they want select ivc transactions governance participation and then you get a csv file or or like a next spreadsheet with all the information of all the addresses that is publicly verified because you

will also get the amount of the list of queries that you can also run manually in order to verify this and then you'll be able to urge up the tokens directly to those addresses by by using it directly on the on the evm okay this this is this this is huge so i mean you you're essentially you've got to build all of this data scraping uh infrastructure to do this right i mean this is a centralized tool that you're describing it's not a it's not an on-chain tool yeah it's essential it's it's uh it's basically it's basically the mechanism that we implemented already for the wrap drop but turning it into a product

not only for ourselves because we already implemented a direct drop mechanism and we also already selected the the contracts the the users from that had uh staked on osmosis from customs hub etc but we are also supporting this mechanism for new projects i wanted to apply to atmos to be able to use this tool without any like it's without thing without just spending months a month into like selecting the contracts and stuff you just need to select the contract address you just need to select like oh what's the minimum gas that i want and then you can run these query

bigquery of course and then you get all these addresses and you get the amount of tokens that you want because you're also being putting the the you also provide them as an input and the amount of tokens so you won and then you yeah you just get the addresses okay that's that's interesting i mean that's that's a that's that's a product that you could you could probably you know uh charge for like a as a separate as a even like a separate product so you know i i i want to i want to zoom out a little bit and talk a little talk about the interchange smart contract uh landscape if you will you know there is like cosmosome has a decent decent sized foothold i think in

the cosmos ecosystem with a juno being you know one of the main chains where people can deploy his cosmos contracts um other chains are also implementing cosmosm yeah yeah terra osmosis club i think is probably also going to do it at some point um or keychain um you know then we have a gorick that a lot of people are you know very excited about and now evmos um i i don't know i mean my feeling is that this fragmentation it could go either way like i mean the fragmentation could be good through the

ecosystem because it creates a lot of uh different types of applications and use cases but i think that alignment also helps accelerate uh development because everyone is kind of focused in on one thing and my my thinking around this is as the ecosystem gets bigger and lots of new people come into the ecosystem is this bizarre approach that cosmos has always uh kind of stood by going to work in creating a a like a competitive ecosystem where people could actually like an ecosystem that can compete with you know the likes

of solana and you know ethereum and some of the other big layer ones i think a lot of these uh chainsaws specialize in different use cases um you have of course a base layer infrastructure like the like the atmos the junos etc but you will also see like application specific chains that have bms that are specifically targeting a use case like osmosis um cosmos environment is probably not going to support say i don't know random uh governance uh smart contracts or

or whatever like nfds necessarily is that's going to be probably stargaze but it's uh on osmosis is going to have cosmo awesome environment for for only d5 so it's kind of like even though they have like the same application underlying application they're kind of like narrowing down on the use case according to what they're already implementing on their chain that being said i think there's there's also gonna be alignment between all these different protocols through ivc um even the even the the ones that not necessarily have the same uh run time like

or same vm like cosmos money on fmos that implements avm so once we implement the functionality for smart contracts on atmos to call smart contracts on juno or any customer wasn't chain like the collaboration we're currently working with stargaze for nfts it's going to be huge because then you'll have the same standard for calling smart contracts on on both chains and that's going to be creating a huge alignment uh where the chains now don't actually need to compete necessarily but they can also access the benefits from the other counterparty chains that are that they're connected to

so so there will be so it won't matter what the underlying run time is accounts on the internet chain are going to be able to control contracts regardless of what the runtime is is what you're saying yeah they will be able like contracts on the evm will be able to call contracts on cosmos and vice versa i think assets like cw20 which is the cosmos representation of tokens are going to be compatible with erc20s on the evm and both of them are also going to be compatible with um the cosmos token format um so the like creating standardization and

creating like interoperability components between all these different runtimes and evms it's also going to help solve many use cases and it's going to be able to provide more uh functionalities like and something that we haven't even talked about is like interchange farming so farming on the interchain is something that i'm particularly very particularly very very interested in and um it's it's a model that i call uh interchange workflows where you set up a workflow for one contract to be called in one chain which calls another contract on another chain

or interacts with osmosis or whatever you create the you get the lp pools and then you're creating the same uh hype that you had on ethereum in 2020 with d5 farming but you are now expanding that to the interchange because of the interoperability and that is going to be huge that is going to be huge and in order for us to support these use cases we need to provide interoperability between like these different evms uh different vms and uh this is something i like our team is personally really excited to work with and and happy to work with any other team and that's why we don't see like

for example juno or any other cosmos chain as like competitors or anything like if you we are able to reach assets and reach contracts through ivc it's going to create so much so many opportunities for all the end users yeah i mean i i i fully i fully am i'm fully on board with the idea that interoperability uh just creates more value everywhere and which is why i'm i'm so bullish on on on cosmos and the interchain and uh what ibc brings in terms of uh you know all these ecosystems being able to um

to interoperate and we haven't talked about like polka dot also like the ability for you know polka dot assets to move uh in and out of the inner chain um yeah i think like interoperability is is uh is the way that we're going yeah and and avamos will be a point of entry for all these polka dots from from us in the um pocket of the ecosystem and also from kusama i'd like to kind of close this part of the conversation um for uh for now and move to you know what happened uh in the uh in the days leading up to the launch and

after the launch we talked about this earlier that the launch has been um now pushed back and so for those of you listening on epicenter uh there will be a link in the show notes where you can get the rest of this conversation so you'll have to come to the interop uh podcast wherever uh wherever you you wanna listen to it whether on spotify or on your podcast player on youtube and you'll be able to listen to the rest of this interview and i hope while you're there also subscribe so that you can get all of the all the episodes as they're released