A Farewell to Boccaccio

Transcript

Thank you, Boccaccio. Two almost 2 years of doing ZeroX together. We've had periods where you ran the show, where I ran the show, where we did it together, and it was a good time all the way through. Well, there were some periods where it was dog [ __ ] and there were some periods where it was really good, but I think on the whole it was mostly pretty good. >> Nothing said on ZeroX Research is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Boccaccio, Ryan, and our guest may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed.

What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of ZeroX Research. Today, I am joined by Danny, Carlos, and Toma. Carlos and Danny, well, Carlos from the Blockworks Research team, Danny from general Blockworks podcast. And Toma from Blockworks Advisory. How the hell are you guys? How are you feeling? >> Feeling nostalgic. >> Very good. >> Doing great. >> Excited for my first and last ZeroX Research.

>> Is this your first ZeroX Research? >> Yeah, I think so. >> Well, it won't be your last cuz we're keeping the show going. But I won't be on it, but it'll still be on. Just let everybody know. Danny, how are you feeling? >> Doing good. >> Feeling happy to be sidelined today. >> Yes, sir. I can't believe they had everybody posting about Zcash, Zcash, Zcash, and then they nuked it. I guess couple questions here. Uh I wanted to ask did anybody expect this, but I realized that if anybody did expect this, then they would be in jail.

So, I don't I can't imagine anybody expected this. Um but it's not just Zcash, broader market is also very down. I just think a lot of people were hiding in Zcash and it nuked 60% so people stopped hiding in it. I guess first question is is anybody here not zide-lined? No everybody nobody here who held Zcash? >> I held it end of last year okay, but I sold. >> Okay, it's fine. That's good. Um, and how's everybody feeling about the general market I guess it's another broader question.

Everybody was hype hiding in hype. It's gone. One thing Danny very astutely said today was you actually don't have to hold crypto coins all the time. You can hold other assets. >> Yeah, the general equities were not spared today. We had a bit of a to to put on and take off the macro cap in in one statement and then we can go past it but it seems like it's one of those times where there was a bullish jobs report or something for the market and that and the bullish news is actually bearish news because people want bad data because they don't want the Fed to hike rates because the data is too good. So we're in one of those like good news is

bad news type of scenarios it seems like so the whole market kind of ate [ __ ] today. That's what it seems like. >> I was looking at BTC like ETF data and so far in June which is like four days five days it's been like 1.4 billion dollars in outflows which is already like the third or fourth fourth like worst month ever for the BTC ETFs and we're just like four days in. So if outflows continue at this pace I would expect it to be the worst if not like top two worst months ever for BTC um outflows.

Um, that said, I think that liquidity is kind of drying up. Like, people are selling BTC to maybe like buying to the idea I kind of mega cops I I P O's. Um, but yeah, I'm just not sure like I have a bad feeling about the market, but probably BTC like the the risk reward of selling like right now is just not it's not it's not that attractive. I probably say we're more close to the bottom than not. Uh, but I'm I'm also biased. >> On Bitcoin specifically are we talking other assets? Cuz you kind of said hype there. Is this hype you think we're close to the bottom?

>> No, I said I think I said sorry if I said hype. I I I was talking about Bitcoin specifically. >> Okay. >> You guys think strategies still selling? They have to be like selling something, right? >> Dude, who's I think talks to it? Yeah. >> I mean there's just today's just correlation like Nasdaq or like Q's are down like 2% today. Like, this is a classic meme of like green day equities, red day crypto, red day equities, really red day crypto. And I think that's kind of what happened. >> I was going to say I think we're also seeing a bit of like what was the IPO that the quantum IPO um, that went live a few days ago as well. And then the SpaceX uh, pre-IPO perhaps also a bit down. You're probably

seeing a bit of like general risk off sentiment throughout. >> Yeah, this was Riley's take as well. He thinks that the IPO's are siphoning liquidity off of other risk assets. I think it makes sense, but also on the other hand you have Saylor who is supposed like a lot of people say did people expect Saylor to never sell? Yes. 100% people expected Saylor to never sell. I think Dan Smith said this. He was like, well, you couldn't have expected him to never sell. I I the market expected him always to not sell.

Right? Like And he has to sell now. And he probably will still have to sell again. I just think it's because he also sold $2 million worth, which he definitely doesn't have to sell $2 million worth. Like let's be realistic. Saylor can find $2 million somewhere. And it just freaks everybody out. It freaked me out. Did you guys see that news and you're like, "Uh-oh, what if he starts selling more?" No? >> It's kind of weird because if you were going to sell and you're Saylor, why wouldn't you sell a lot first? Because you know as soon as you make the announcement that it's going to send some fear into the market because you're the biggest holder of the asset.

So. >> Yeah. Yeah, testing liquidity. You just sell two >> [laughter] >> two million, but >> Let's just sell 30 coins. Like just just let you guys know, "Hey, we sold 30." >> Did you guys pay attention to that Polymarket market of MicroStrategy selling? >> I I can't do this every 3 months. Polymarket something bad happens and we have to say, "Oh, something bad happened on Polymarket." Cuz they just Look, they're in a tough position, but it seems that they're always kind of taking the not obvious like the obviously wrong one. What was the other one that they were like, "Oh, this didn't happen." when like it did happen?

It was something about in this >> It was this It was the jacket. It was the Zelenskyy coat thing and they were mad about it. This is just Yeah, I don't know. I find it very funny. It's like we're I don't know. They're supposed to be building a product that you get paid if you're correct about something and um seems like we need to make a new product that you actually get paid out when you're correct because that doesn't seem to be what Polymarket does. >> Does anyone know what happens to stretch now that it's at $91? Like I was asking Mark because I have no idea how that how the product works, but >> He He has to raise the yield again for it to get to the >> Yeah, that That's what Mark said, but like

doesn't it seem like like it does seem like kind of worrisome now that it keeps dropping or it's fine. >> Yeah, it doesn't work. I mean, that's the problem. He has three It's like It's like you know how he spent all these years talking about how there's this blockchain trilemma and you're like, yeah, you can't solve all three things at once. You kind of have to like have a little bit of give on certain portions to make part of it work. And then Saylor said, let me just create my own trilemma with three different assets and they're all going to go up perfectly forever.

Um and it doesn't really work like that. Like he has to sell one of them to make the other one go up and then he has to sell that one to make that one go up and I think yeah, if you don't want stretch to just be negatively impacted, then he has to raise the yield. And if he wants to raise the yield, then he has to sell something else. He either has to sell the equity or he has to sell his Bitcoin. So, yeah, he's just permanently [ __ ] It's a It's a triangle. Like it's going to bounce around between them. >> It's a triangle, but unlike the the the blockchain trilemma, you can't make like 80 billion dollars from it if you just write a blog post saying we solved the trilemma. No, you just you're permanently [ __ ] No, it is

it feels I will say one thing like I am not a big bottom caller. I'm also not a big top caller. But it does feel like the type of stuff that would be like you know, it's like like at the top it's like, oh, Saylor and the Dats, they're just going to keep max bidding, man. Like, you know, we're only going to go up. And then at the bottom it's like, yeah, Saylor's just going to keep nuking it. And they just keep waiting for the nuke. Like last time it was what was it? People were saying Binance has to fail. That was like the thing. Oh, Binance like CZ has to go broke for it to happen.

Um I don't know if it's the bottom, but I do agree with Carlos that it's probably closer to it. But the other like the counterpoint to that is like, okay, it's the bottom, but do you really want to like I don't know, spend 6 months trying to pick the bottom at BTC when there's the greatest bull market ever known to mankind in Korea and memory stocks and everything. >> Yeah. And to be clear, I don't like I'm not again imply that Saylor >> Saylor >> is going to have to like blow up or unload all of his BTC or anything. I don't think he's forced to do that, but it's more of just like if you're buying any of those vehicles, like you're just exit liquidity for some other portion of his cuz he has three trades going at the

same time. So, if you're buying any of like if you're buying stretch, then you're exit liquidity for another part of that trade. And if you're buying MST like MSTR itself, then you're exit liquidity for him buying BTC. It's just like a you know, ouroboros as maybe Vitalik would say. >> Yeah. One beautiful thing about finance is that there's always a man who comes around and says, I solved it. I solved I've created financial alchemy. I've figured out a way where it's just, you know, it it has to work out. And then you know, something small goes wrong.

And it doesn't work out. Guys, today's episode, as Carlos and Toma are also aware, is actually a new style of episode. It's only going to be live once. Um, but we're going to rotate guests. So, before you guys have to go, Carlos and Toma, I'm going to ask you guys one thing. Um, what crypto tokens would you buy if you had if you if I had a if I had a gun to your head right now and I said you have to buy a single token, which ones would you buy? >> Is there a minimum market cap? >> No. You well, yeah, you can't scam people on the podcast if that's your question.

>> No. There's um Well, I would say hype, but that's kind of boring. There's this other one called >> Steph, you got to cut that bit out. He's shilling dog Steph, you know what? Steph you cut it out, just bleep it. So that everybody knows that he shilled dog [ __ ] but like we're only judging him. Does that work? >> All right, then I'll say hype is boring. It's boring. >> No, hype is good. Carlos, your turn. >> I would say hype like exposure to perps.

Sky like exposure to stablecoins and credit. Then Metadao kind of a small cap or high conviction bet. And then the last one would be probably derive. Just on-chain options. Hasn't sold off as much as the rest of the market. And they keep just crushing it in terms of traction, you know, high volumes having at all-time highs. Um I think options will continue to gain traction, maybe not as much as perps in crypto, but it seems like a good bet.

Those would be my my four options. >> I think that makes I will say one thing. I was looking at a way to sell something through options the other day and I found out that there's no options for it. And then that's when I realized like, oh, I would like some options in crypto. So I think yeah, maybe there is a way to fit it in there. Um your answers were good, Carlos. Tom's answers were kind of embarrassing, to be honest with you. Um apart from the hype bit, but uh appreciate you guys coming on. Um let me see, what does this button do? Oh.

What does this one do? Okay, we have the non-giggle brothers joining us from America. >> Bird Watchers United. >> Birds Birds Birds Birds Birds >> How are you guys feeling? Matt, Arin, how's life? >> Peter Schiff says crypto Black Friday Black Monday to expect. So uh yeah, we'll see. >> We're just monitoring the situation with APX USD, no exposure. Just looking. >> I have Actually, I didn't have any questions for the previous guys, but I do have two questions for you guys because I feel like you would understand how this works. So, one of them is this.

Why are Why is lending getting pummeled to death given the fact that it has PMF as the general cryptocurrency markets participants like say. And the second question is is there a way for Sailor out Sailor to get out without ruining the crypto markets forever? >> I mean, sure it has PMF, but you've seen implied yields continually get hammered across the board as prices have come off and majority of assets are trading even like below their October test low marks. So, you have call it 1 and 1/2 to 2 and 1/2% annualized yield on stablecoin rates

generally across the board. Are you really going to take that smart contract risk associated with that uh yield without, you know, looping? You just naturally have to be a forced looper. And, you know, you have a few protocols depositing supply to to suppress borrow rates to maintain a positive return basis for loopers cuz they're, you know, borrowing stables against stables. So, it's all this recursive unwind that's happening. You know, you saw it with RS ETH spiking borrow rates significantly on Ave and all >> [clears throat] >> and elsewhere.

And so, it's just, you know, people are just, you know, coming to that realization of like, do I really want to be deploying capital and capturing this yield when I could be getting a similar return profile off-chain in high-yield savings accounts or just through short-dated T-bill exposure. >> One follow-up here I have is I don't know if you guys do both of these or not, but so I know obviously you guys buy tokens um angel or like VC back etc. So you have like token exposure. Do you also do DeFi positions?

Or is that something that you guys really actively do or not? >> Like like like like yield generation? Yeah. Yeah. >> And then now with everything coming up I think the Zcash thing is is probably the first obvious example of this of like AI very very um I think AI exploits have been going on for a while, but it's going to obviously keep getting more intense. I don't know if you guys saw this, but the US government announced that they used Mythos to um conduct cyber attacks um obviously going to get more and more like how do you underwrite if you're going to be uh

I don't know providing liquidity or yield generating yield on chain. Like is that something that you're even still interested in? Um >> Well, I like I think this is a huge barrier to institutional DeFi adoption and uh I think this is where insurance companies can really move in. I mean sure you can underwrite the strategy, but formal verification of smart contract methods should be a standard in my opinion. And um maybe it was as a kind of lack of need of doing it before that that resulted in it not being kind of as prevalent. Um but ultimately like I think it's going to be a mixture of insurance providers underwriting the strategies and uh downside protection

providers underwriting the strategies and and infrastructure actually going through formal verification of smart contract methods. >> Yeah, I don't know if I would underwrite DeFi strategies. Like if you came to me and said, "Yeah, I'm looping stuff on Morpho, can you underwrite stuff?" I'd say, "Fuck you, dude. Figure it out." >> Yeah, well then that's the um that's the market saying that we're we're not willing to underwrite this sort of behavior. Which is fair. I mean, should you be looping something seven, eight times? Do we see comparable? I mean, yes, we do see comparable, but but that's where we see reflexivity being introduced in traditional markets and that's where we see uh crashes occurring sorry to be and and why should crypto be any different?

>> All right, third question. Is there a way for Sailor to get out of this unharmed and for me to not cry because my tokens keep going down. Either of you can take it. Who wants to? >> I mean, not not investment advice. This is purely my own opinion but um you know, the the degree of leverage taken on through issuance of uh preferred and whatnot, um it's going to become harder and harder for for Sailor to combat that as price falls down. It's a bit of a flywheel. And I mean, you're seeing that with where where STRC is trading right now. You're seeing it where APX-USD has

been trading over the past couple of days. Um you know, past past experience tells me, you know, these sort of things are just better off, you know, if you have exposure, you need to be like considering your like risk parameters and like what the um what what the max pain scenario would would be. Um so, hard to tell when I was not much of an answer, but um as price continues to to bleed on Bitcoin, it's going to put further and further pressure on Sailor, obviously. And I I don't remember where his cost price is. Maybe you three do. I thought it was in the 60s or 65, but I

could be totally off there, but Um it's obviously trading below that price if that is his actual cost. Um And you know the further that goes the harder it is. And like unlike the waterfall, if you will, regarding who gets hurt most, it's kind of hard to tell. But my inclination is that the the the first people to feel heat will be the STRC holders {slash} APXUSD holders. It's just natural too cuz of the um on-chain component of it too. I think you'll see those markets move first versus anything else.

>> Yeah, my favorite thing about on-chain is you you know, you're the one that gets pummeled first. So it's a very good very good way of being. Aryan, what's your And also Matt, on you saying like oh this is probably not a very obvious like not a very clear answer. I will say I think most of the times with stuff like this if you have a clear answer you end up being wrong. And I don't think you can end up being wrong now so >> I'm just hedging myself out. >> Very good. Aryan >> Yeah. No, I mean I share I share views with Matt. I think the only the only way that the only clean exit that's fully available to him isn't really in his

control and that's just Bitcoin ripping to 128 plus um current reserve math. So that's he's got what? A year of at current rates um for STRC. So do we see Bitcoin ripping to 120K in the next year? >> Danny, what do you think? >> Uh I mean if you priced it out I'm guessing the odds are low. We could probably even look at like the options market to see what that looks like and maybe what premium you'd pay, but I think if you made me flip a coin on it I would have probably have to say no.

>> Okay. >> But I'm not I'm not an all knowledgeable being, but I'm sure the markets have a nice price and probability. >> I guess we'll see with the I guess we'll see how Polymarket resolves to these bets. >> I I think the problem is that everything that he can do kind of favors one party over another. And he's put himself in this position of making uh the stakeholders um kind of codependent on each other >> with his success and failure.

>> Yeah, we talked about this before you guys hopped on, but my my broad takeaway here was that he sort of created his own blockchain trilemma for himself by having you know, there's the equity, there's the bit the Bitcoin that he wants to buy, and then obviously now all these preferred vehicles um and benefiting one is typically now at the expense of one of the others or maybe multiple of the others. And so he's kind of like you're saying, he's like stuck in this in this loop. >> Yep. To quantify it, there's I It looks like there's like 40 mil of that against tokenized STRK in Morpho, but the health factor still seems relatively healthy. It's 1.09.

Uh LTV's like 85-ish percent, but there is like a pretty good amount of of exposure. Uh I'm looking at this tweet by Andrew Hong. Shout out Andrew with uh with Herd. Great product. Um and he was saying that there's like 50 plus tokens involved that are intertwined within APX USD exposure across Pendle, Morpho, few other places, too. And so um it is like a pretty widely integrated product at this point in time, which makes it a bit more interesting on what happens exactly should like APX in theory trade sub, you know, 50% discount.

>> Yeah, I remember Luke talked about APX for a a bit. I think that must have been cuz this related to Pendle. He'll only talk about Pendle. Um guys, before I let you guys go, I have one question for you, but I also realized halfway through posing this question that you might not be able to answer this. Um but to the previous batch, we asked um what is one token that you guys would buy? I don't think you're able to answer that, right? So, I'm I will have to redo it. Um okay. >> We can We can answer in terms of like a mechanism design uh approach or or like a structural approach.

>> Uh I think I think Could we do a category? >> Category categories. >> Or or prediction. Either works. >> Any tokens not in the Blockworks transparency reports. >> Okay. I think That's very good. Uh I will make sure that Yano hears that one as well, and he'll be very happy that I put that in the podcast. Aryan, is that also your answer? >> No, I think uh any tokens with real real flows tied to them. Um you know, that represent some underlying >> Okay. I'm going to take this thing hyper liquid because both of these are just hyper liquid. It's Is that Is that fine?

>> I I'll say this. Um I talked about this on a panel in Miami a few weeks ago, which was centered around um how do you align liquidity providers, users, and uh token holders, and you know, at its core, the added transparency measures that have been implemented by by you guys, and then by teams that are self-reporting is a massive net benefit to the space. If you're like me and have used on-chain indexing in the past to try and track flows post TGEs, it's extremely difficult to do that. You have uh tokens that are minted, and then they're distributed by the uh minting address or contract to hundreds of addresses, and it's extremely difficult

to track what's team supply, what's investor supply, what's community, etc., and a clear understanding and knowledge of where those assets sit within specific contracts or EOAs is extremely helpful for the investing community and it's something that is available in the traditional markets and I view that as a net positive to the space and I understand, you know, token prices have been, you know, pummeled pretty hard. You have like tokens that, you know, facilitate a sort of like buyback and burn mechanism.

Um they're down I think around 30 to 40% median and that's really driven by hyperliquid. You take out hyperliquid, it's closer to like 55-60% down and then the tokens that don't have any sort of revenue generation vehicle to them are down closer to like -80% net in the last year. And so it's really like a telling story of um the market isn't really rewarding you for having like a revenue buyback mechanism. There's like factoring out hyperliquid from that cuz I obviously hype is a massive outlier. But the the market's not really rewarding you for that. It's more an instance of like the market is punishing you for a lack thereof. But at the same time we've had this, you know, exciting emergence come about where there's

access to more transparent information on how treasuries interact, market makers, uh team-based wallets, etc. that I think will be uh hopefully, you know, a driving force for adoption going forward. >> But even even something like hyperliquid, I just want to add this. Like with HIP-4 and you guys put out a beautiful report. Shout out Shonda for putting this out. Like we're seeing hyperliquid move away from revenue generation towards capturing the market activity and trade execution volume. I I think that's going to be a prevailing strategy for them in the long run. And so can we even continue to rely on revenue scaling at the same rate that I

think we've seen today from things like H and E3 as as they move towards more H and E4 H and E5 in the future whatever that may be. >> I really like that I asked a very simple question and you guys both gave me a 7-minute answer that I The experience this has always been my experience with the CMT digital guys, but can I tell you why it is? It is because they are actually thinking about stuff. I'm going to add Ian on in like 3 minutes and he's going to say to me like five times in a row. Um on the market maker disclosures wallet stuff not I am hoping that uh transparency like the TTF actually works with that. I think that's like my favorite part of the TTF is forcing

people to submit wallets of where things go. I would like even if you're not tracking flows just tracking what a treasury wallet is or like where fees go is is ridiculous. Like I shouldn't have to do this. I should be able to see it. Um we'll have Ian talk a little bit about his analytics experience in a minute. And then Aryan in terms of hyper liquid H and E3 I think they're going to have to up fees and then I don't know if that's going to actually help revenue. And overall one thing I will say is that it is very very funny that apart from hyper liquid if you still bought back then burn your token your token is still down 60%. I think that is [ __ ] hilarious because a lot of other teams you know, they just ended up holding on to their revenue. The one

thing effort capital now me and effort capital God bless us all. We are we disagree on a lot of things, but one thing I do agree with him kind of on is that probably doesn't make a lot of sense to spend all of your revenue on uh burning it. Um I feel like that that is not necessarily the the best thing to do. Before Go ahead, Aryan. >> Speaking of that >> need Maybe we just need market maturity for um buyback and burn to actually be valued for it to be substantial enough to be valued. I mean early days of companies and buying back their own stocks. Is that going to be as impactful as when they can actually swing their weight around and help it?

>> Yeah, I think that makes sense. It probably doesn't make a lot of sense if you're a year-old project and you're just shipping all of your revenue into into your own token. But we will I can't even stop Noah from making snarky comments even though he's not on the camera. Okay. Aryan, Matt, always a pleasure. Um >> Thanks for joining, guys. >> Thanks for having us. >> You guys were very kind. It's an honor and a privilege. >> We love you guys. Thank you. >> Yeah.

>> On to the next ones. >> I I don't even know who this is now. Okay. I'm going to add They've been waiting the longest. Ian's been waiting for 30 minutes, guy. >> I've got something to say. >> Wait, I don't know if I can do >> Go live. >> I'm so sad. >> All right. Um Jim, how are you doing? >> I'm good. I'm good. Um how are you guys How How are you doing? What's going on here? What's going on? >> I'm good. I'm trying to figure out a way to add people to the show without them being pissed off, but I swear to God I know James is really going to actually I Um >> I'm a positive guy.

>> Oh, you're good then. >> a scene on his last day. >> I'm I have tears in my eyes cuz you're It's your last day. This is so sad. What >> Well, it's actually Yeah, it is really sad. Ian, how are you feeling? Are you upset also that I'm leaving? >> I'm so pissed. I punched like three holes in my wall. He just I just don't really know how to express my emotions about it, so I'm really hoping that I can just find closure on this podcast. >> Okay, let's talk cryptocurrency markets. Um Jim maybe we'll go with you. Oh, what How do you feel about um I don't know, recent launches. We were very We were both very excited about

Mega Eve. What's happening? Do you think it's they just got unlucky? >> Uh, I think it's a bit of a tough time for chains to launch and um uh they've had some they've had some of I think uh own goals. I think as well as some like shots that just like haven't really materialized yet. It's still early. I think they still have some time to turn things around, but um I think overall it's a little bit quieter over there now that the chain is launched and that's like sort of I think probably uh they're they're probably busy trying to

figure out what how to how to do it what like how to improve, but there's a lot of like there's a lot of room for improvement essentially. >> Yeah. I will say one thing. I used Mega Eve a few times. Um it actually feels pretty good as a chain. >> Yeah. >> Um like the actual experience. Uh not much to do, but I do I think that's what they're trying to solve. That's fine. Like there are a few apps like, but it's just not it's not where it needs to be and it's very difficult like there aren't a lot of developers in crypto. There aren't a lot of people building new things. It's on chain is pretty pretty dead right now. Um everyone's excited about RWAs and payments, which like I don't know. Uh >> They're waiting.

>> They're coming they they the institutions are coming soon, um but I mean I just think we need some I don't know. I I don't know. I don't know what to say about it. It's a it's a tough time for crypto natives that were excited about >> That's fair. >> like that. >> That's fair. Yeah, it is kind of a depressing time to be full-time in crypto. With that, Ian, how are you feeling? >> I'm feeling good. Um yeah.

I think I think Jim's right. Like on on chain's pretty dead. Um I think right now if people just like want to trade thing things obviously there's a lot of volatility. So I think that's why that hyper liquid has continued to get a lot of the attention. Um I thought Matt and Aryan gave a pretty good overview on kind of the the MicroStrategy situation. Um but yeah, I think it's every everyone's in kind of like a wait and see mode I guess as well until we see how clarity pans out. Um yeah. >> Traditional markets are also a little shaky right now. Um just these these IPOs coming up are going to be either windfalls or catastrophic and it doesn't seem like anybody thinks it's going to be somewhere in the middle. Um and

market's been ripping like crazy recently and like feels a little bit frothy and so if things start to cool down a little bit in the equity side like my guess is that crypto all this some some crypto goes down when the markets go up and crypto goes down when the markets go down. So uh you know, it's I think it's just a little people do want to trade stuff. You're right, Ian. Like I agree. Like it's I've been on trading a little bit on hyper liquid recently like equity stuff and done okay, but um other than that there's really not much to do.

>> You're saying you've done okay, but I will say Jim, didn't you win a trading competition like 3 months ago or 2 months ago? >> Yes, I did. Uh I was >> You have the sword? >> I have the sword and I have the sword's right here cuz ask me in the office. Who's the sword? >> He studied the blade. Let's go. >> And then >> my favorite arcs. >> Most importantly the Wall Street Journal front page right there my name. Front page.

>> Wow. >> That's >> big. >> That's actually >> that. >> Hell yeah, I would frame that. >> It was Trump, she Jim Cramer low. >> [laughter] >> All the all the big swingers were out. >> That's awesome. >> Ian, one >> Where you going, Bakachio? >> I can't I I'm not allowed to share. >> Anthropic, he's going to anthropic. >> I'm going to anthropic. They're going to make me run their ethics.

>> Amazing. >> Yeah, they're dropping a token and Box going to run it. >> [snorts] >> Uh I'm going to be doing the you know how they have to manage UniD free positions for tokens? I'm going to be the guy managing the UniD positions. >> [laughter] >> I'll move up, move it up. Um Ian, we were talking Carlos was talking about this a lot. Carlos loves talking about this stuff. He was talking about the hot flows into hype. What are the flows? Also, I told Shonda that I was going to sell hype at 75. This dude looked me in the eye and said, "Nah, don't sell it. There's flows coming." I was like, "Okay, maybe I'll wait a day."

And it's at 58 now. So, what are these like dad flows? I know you've become like kind of special interested into this. You get Didn't you guess it to 0.45% or something? Do you know what I'm talking about? >> Yeah. Yeah, so I have I have all of their wallets tracked. Um And I mean, yeah, like so they're buying pressure starting from the same point. It was like the uh day the ETFs went live. They've bought like now more than like 2x uh all of the ETFs.

Um Obviously, I think they had a pretty insane week last week, too. Like there was their largest ever day of volume for like the actual for the ticker per. Um so, I think like they did a lot of like ATM uh selling and clearly they've been buying a ton. Like I'm I'm looking at it now. Like they have like, you know, open flops still. Um but obviously like there's a lot of people that are just trying to exit hype at the same time. Uh otherwise it wouldn't be at 58. So, yeah, I mean yeah, it looks looks fine, but also it's like for all these debts, you just kind of don't want to be in the situation that like strategy is in now, I guess. Um where I think like strategy helped cuz

it was like structural buyer BTC, that drove up the price, people FOMO'd in through the ETFs. Um and then obviously had like large players kind of exit around like 100k BTC. Um also it's like the largest ever uh I'm going to say like block trade of IBIT is like 2 weeks ago or something. I was like one Someone sold like 1 billion of IBIT. Uh kind of before all of like the sailor selling announcements. >> I saw that. >> Yeah. So, I mean obviously he doesn't want it to end up in that same spot, and I think there's been like a There's definitely been a lot of froth on hyperliquid in general like uh I don't know if you've seen that guy at Capital Flows um going around. He's talking about like a gamma squeeze and

stuff. Like gamma squeeze style thing for for PERP the same way we saw for GME. And if you go on like listen to like him on this other guy on this like one podcast, I think it was on the roll up. Um you you it's like peak euphoria. So, got to keep that in mind as well. >> Dog, my dad who was like very financially like he was in finance for some time. But he messaged me about PERP. And like the stock and I I really wanted to tell him that there's a gamma squeeze happening, but I didn't cuz I thought he'd be very upset with me. Um but yeah, it's like the ideal scenario is that though, right? Like idiots pick it up and say, "Oh yeah, there's going to be a gamma squeeze on hyperliquid or

PERP." And he just He might >> The ideal scenario for per holders and capital and call option holders. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah, so I if you go and listen to that pod, I mean you you hear you hear the frost in in their in their words for sure like the they're just pulled up. So, I think like a pullback is probably warranted a bit, but there's like good structural flows coming in still. We haven't seen Coinbase and Circle's um addition to the assistance fund kicking yet.

So, uh watching for that, but obviously that adds a lot of like uh buying pressure there as well. Um Grayscale's ETF is not you know, producing any meaningful flows yet. Um So, we'll see. We'll see how uh you know, people like it at 58. I think a lot of people obviously liked it at, you know, in like mid-60s, high-60s. So, we'll see um what flows look like next week, but for right now I think it's kind of a it is what it is. >> It is what it is. Guys, I am really quick. Not really quick, you can take your time.

Uh I asked this kind of fumbled it for the last one to you guys that I can ask it properly. Um gun to your head, you can only buy two tokens in crypto and it can't be the dog [ __ ] that Zucky showed earlier. What is it? Going forward 1 year. >> Hyperliquid and later. >> That's fair. Those are actually my picks as well, so. Ian, I forgot Ian doesn't invest, he just kind of does it for like his special interest. Like, oh, there's flows coming in. Ian, which flows? >> buy I'll buy into like, you know, when there's um clear trades and stuff like that, but yeah, I think I think Jim is right.

Like, that's the kind of the obvious thing right now. I think LIT is particularly interesting where a lot of their Like, if you look at the amount of their circulating supply that they've bought back and burnt as well. Doesn't really get talked about a lot, but I think at this point it's a little on par if not higher than hyperliquid. Um so like and they haven't had their first uh yeah and they haven't had their first unlock yet. So I like the float is pretty small. I think that's why you see it move so um violently. >> Actually, sorry for 1 year I'm not holding later cuz of the unlock. I forgot about that. Uh definitely not holding that for a year.

>> No, uh you can't change it now. You got to buy it and you got to you got to hold it for a year. You already said it. >> I think um I think I mean JTO looks interesting. I think there's clearly some large buyers of that that have bought like large single-digit amounts of the supply. Um I think that especially is interesting cuz it's like fully decoupled from Solana at this point. Like it was really coupled to SOL for a while. I think they have a lot of proving to do. Obviously the exchange isn't even live. So it's like you're really buying off the idea. You're buying off the vibes. You're buying off the um potential.

And but like a lot of that that float is out there. Obviously there's still some unlocks to happen. Um but yeah, I think like the only kind of clear one is is hype right now, but um Bakhti, you you actually might know, but like I I I don't really understand like what the unlock schedule is like for hype. I feel like there's so much misinformation about that. >> It's it's by design. Don't worry too much about it. Just leave it. >> [laughter] >> Don't [ __ ] >> Don't worry Don't worry about it, kitten. >> This is This is my understanding of how the hyperliquid schedule works, okay? There's a hyperliquid schedule. It exists.

Yes. There is one rogue previous employee that gets unlocked into. You just [ __ ] on him. If there's any hype dumping, you just [ __ ] on that guy. He's been previously employed. And if you post the schedule, Max Fiege turns up and he beats you to death. That's what the hype schedule And then every once in a while hyperliquid posts that they're actually reducing the unlocks by 90%. Um I think all of the unlocks are fully on chain by the way and you can put like all joking aside they are fully on chain and they did I do like the fact that they realized that if they kept unlocking that like whatever it was amount they would they were going to nuke the price so they were like we're just going to

reduce them by X percent. Um, so they did a good call there. Um, not many others would do that. >> Do you think that like uh, this unlock gets sold? Which unlock? This like form that's coming up. Yeah. >> Uh, >> I feel like at 75 people would probably like I want to is like this peak euphoria you're probably going to hold. I wonder if people are will hold at >> Yeah. Uh, at 75 I mean now it's 58 so I don't know but at 75 there were so many like unlocks on the staking queue like massive funds yes they were like yeah we got to unlock like 5 mil hype right now and then to tie up that this is one of my favorite

things that in hyper liquid people do they keep putting on these massive club positions of hype and they're like oh I'm you know I'm buying like 300 million dollars of hype and they put it on for like a minute and then they like screenshot it post it on Twitter and then they cancel the thing. Everyone was like oh whales are bidding don't worry about the unstaking queue. Um, I don't I don't know if it'll get sold. If it's like 55 maybe not I don't know. I think a lot of people already got out like above 65. Um, and the roll up gave them their exit. Um, talking about the purr on the podcast he allowed people to leave.

My honest thought. >> Why is the dev buying top blasting? >> That's the purpose that's >> That's how devs work Jim. >> That's the purpose. >> I mean they they've been so good. I mean it's like one of those things where I they've been so good and patient with the capital and buying at like floors and creating like floors and support and then like I think it happened. I think like like $28 like they were buying at $28. They were They were sitting on cash for a while.

Like >> It's I feel like it's human psychology and then you're like, "Oh, like it's going up. It's going to keep going up. Keep going up. I got to bid more." Like at some point cuz if you're the I don't know how much money the DAO has, but like from my own thing considering myself like if I for example James Christoph sent me a [ __ ] 2 days ago. I bought it, okay, at the lows. And then it kept going up and I was like, "Oh my god, it's going to get away from me. I got to keep buying. I got to keep buying." I imagine that at the DAO there is people feeling that way as well. I think most like at that level they're not checking in each other enough and they just top blasting cuz of that. Like I think it's just

psychological. It's not like they're trying to move it for a price or something. >> But there's a difference between Boccaccio what like hunting into a [ __ ] and I don't know. I I just I assume they would they would be like a floor. They try to create floors versus like >> My hot take is that there isn't much of a difference between the two. That's my I I well because I think human psychology at the fundamental is the same thing and maybe they're not checking each other well enough. But yeah, I agree with you. They probably should have bought into the unlocks.

Right? Like isn't that the whole point of the DAO is that you buy the unlock? And then you make >> They still have um like they have like 141 million in cash in their last reporting like uh last week they had like 160. Uh over the past week they bought like over 100 million. So like they're clearly like I think they're I think they're doing fine, but also I think it's just kind of like a weird structure cuz you don't really they don't really want to give their strategy either. It's kind of weird to broadcast that cuz then I think like the market would react to that. And from what I'm seeing like they're just a they're slow buyer every level like they're not just like um you know bidding crazy like the the tops that they have are like over a pretty decently long time periods.

Um so we'll see though. I mean the guys the guys seem relatively smart. If you go and like listen to those guys talk versus like Sailor and Tom Lee um I think you'll feel a little bit better. And also I think they're uh general float of hype is far less than BTC and ETH so um but yeah. >> Okay. All right. Ian James you guys took 7 minutes longer than your allotted time which should just show you how much I care about both of you. Um I hope you both uh I thank you both very much for coming on but we have to skip over to the to the chosen people. Um and yeah.

>> Uh good luck Papaccio and I hope to see you >> Thanks for coming on guys. >> Take care of yourself. >> Goodbye. >> Okay. Wow, now we're going to really be upset because they're going to All right. James are you okay? Unironically >> I'm going to go to sleep. I really my friends >> Noah how are you feeling? You're muted. Oh no, he didn't install this tech >> mic is dead. Is that an AI rendering of your face?

>> [laughter] >> I know he's got the Snapchat filter on. >> He looks very AI today. >> All right. You guys were rude to me. I only have 3 minutes anyway so let's get it over with. >> Are you serious? How do you We're going Yeah, I got to I told you I got I got to call at 1:30. I can't miss. Um we're going to miss you a lot. >> I'll chat with you then so that you also get the giggle brother experience. Wait, I got to remove >> Yeah. >> No, I'm back. Noah, Steve, can you hear me? >> Yes. >> Please. >> Yeah. Yeah, Steve, I can hear.

Okay. >> I was going to say, actually I'll I'll let James go. I know he has to leave soon. >> We're going to miss you, Bakaccio. Um what do you want to talk about in our last 7 minutes together? And I'm sorry that I left the 0X research chat, but it's it's become too much for me. I can be reached independently. >> I think that's fine. 7 minutes and having is good enough. Um James, give me uh if you disagree with Aryan and Matt's analysis of the stretch situation. And last thing, um maybe like do you think it's [ __ ] Like we can get out of this? And why are you unironically bullish? That was a good mix.

>> Yeah, I think like I've always been a pretty big sailor hater um in the past as I've made abundantly clear to everybody. But like I think with many things like I doubt if and when it fails, it's definitely not going to be like the first time. Um I was actually looking at buying some of the depegged um like Saturn, Apex Finance, like those scammy pended PTs. Um I ended up not buying them, but like they're actually probably pretty decent value now. Um I think one of the things you want to look at is unironically if we get an announcement on on Monday that sailor sold, I think that's probably pretty bullish cuz then like it'll it should re-peg pretty quickly and I think people will be um pretty relieved at that.

Um Look, I think like if you're if you're this is like not rocket science or anything super like brain giga brain, but like if you were bearish on sailor and all that kind of stuff, this is probably not the time to be expressing that at these levels, right? Like if you're right, I don't know why you would be shorting by a strategy or shorting stretch or any any of that. Um and as my title says, like I'll probably actually be buying this weekend a little bit of stuff. Um not like super super bullish, but definitely not like definitely not I'd at all here. I think that's probably the wrong move.

>> I agree with that. Noah, what do you think? >> It's tough. It depends what assets we're talking about, but I agree like did now is not the time to be to to be selling um at like 60k. I think like candidly like 2 weeks ago I was pretty depressed by the market not because it's down, but honestly because so much stupid stuff was going up. And so I was just like are we just going to play this game over and over again? Um and so I I'm happy that things are things are down. They needed to come down. Like they're still on one hand like there is some value in parts of the market, but at the same time the names that I track that I feel like pretty confident on the range of fair values, they're nowhere close yet.

Like down 30 to 50 would get them there. Maybe they never get there, but I that that's kind of my leaning is like yeah, I'm not too bearish here. I'm not going to bet against the stuff or like sell short the stuff that I still think is going to go down another 50%, but like it's hard for me to be like outright bullish. I just think you have all the like negative information come to the market, which is is good and sets up the stage to become bullish and maybe there's like a rebound, but my my base case is like best best case is you know, we have 3 6 months of of chop and accumulation just because like I talked all of these funds and I talked to the desks and people are just selling their entire books right now. And I just think that takes a while

and there's a lot of capital that's stuck into to allow that rotation to occur. >> Yeah, I still think there's stuff that's like completely uninvestable forever, right? Like I think at this point like if you being interested in bidding ETH or SOL like you probably need your head reexamined as compared to other stuff in the market, right? Like the justification for being long those two is versus anything else. >> Wait, I have a question because I I very much understand the ETH thing. It's like I haven't held SOL in a very long time. And I haven't been interested in buying SOL in a very long time.

But, you don't think that it is like ever bid worthy. And then also, I also want to ask about lending markets to you guys, but that's the first one. You don't think it's ever bid worthy again? Even if they fix the inflation problem? >> No, I mean like it's just like it's dumb. Not saying your question is dumb. Like I'm just it's just dumb on Twitter having these same debates over and over and over again. When people say stupid [ __ ] like, "Oh, look at all the revenue GRASS is getting." And like they just all of these tokens and they they talk about REV and all this stupid [ __ ] Like it just does not matter. Unless they're using the revenue to buy back the token and it goes away.

Or all of the revenue just gets air-dropped to the token holders' wallets. Like I don't care. You know what I mean? It just does not matter. >> I On that point, I like I think the the CMT guys were talking about the buyback or like dynamics for tokens that buy back and tokens that don't. And like I agree on the margin that there's some signal there, but I think like it pro- like my main argument is like if you have a company that's buying back their their asset, like great. But ultimately, the value of the company is a function of their future free free cash flows. And so like it's company's buying back its token probably signals that it has some revenue to buy back.

But like in reality, most companies that are buying back their token are not seeing the revenue inflect upwards right now. In fact, it's going down. And I think if you think like somewhat negatively about the next 6-12 months, it's not clear like why things are going to inflect the other way. And so like I think that it's pretty rational for tokens that are like buy buying back their their tokens to continue to go down if you think the revenue is going to go down. And And I think that's like probably the bigger determinant for why they're going down, but it's like the market doesn't care about buybacks. I think it's just like these things aren't priced well. >> I mean, that makes sense. James, we chatted about this a bit earlier, but no, for some reason in my mind, you're always like, "Oh, lending could be

interesting." kind of investor. Are you into lending stuff, or is this am I just completely wrong? >> I'm intellectually interested in lending because I think a lot of the like biggest out by James. Um the like there's a lot of inefficiency in in like broader financial markets as it pertains to lending and like latency, I think is a big issue with blockchains for for trading activity and I can understand why you can remove certain intermediaries like calculation agents via smart contracts. So like on one hand, I remain like fundamentally bullish on the technology, but then as far as like its implementation, like I feel like I was I was talking about this on on a another podcast a while ago. It's like,

"Yes, I can be bullish on lending, but I could also think that like so many of the people that are building in in the borrow lend space have no idea what they're doing, have no financial backgrounds, and like ultimately there are these basic things that need to be implemented that aren't revolutionary, but have not been implemented yet. So I think you have to separate like what could be from reality and the reality is right now is that like the pace of development like it's like, "Yeah, we can have one smart contract upgrade a year." Like, "Oh, we're about to add fixed-term lending." It's just like, "Congratulations, we are building something that has been built in TradFi and we're talking about it as an accomplishment." It's just not. So I it's to to summarize like, yeah, I'm I'm bullish on the potential for on-chain lending. I

just think you need more serious people to to be the ones working at these companies and like understand the pace of development necessary and then also understand like all the problems to bring this to market cuz this is not an easy sell when the stigma of crypto is as high as it is or is is bad as it is. >> One thing I will say on that like one smart contract upgrade a year, I think ETH also kind of suffered from this. It's that if you because these lending protocols hold the most I I would say they hold the most capital in crypto. Like Uniswap, the pools probably have more, but stock [ __ ] tokens, so it doesn't really count.

Um so I think they have to be super careful and people who lend on I don't know, Ave V3, they probably won't even move to V4 until like much much later. >> 100%, but like this is this kind of gets at my my point, which is like there's a way to meet the market where it is today, and there's a way to build towards the future, and those things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. And it just feels like the peer-to-pool lending models were just copied because Aave found traction in 2021, and like they serve a purpose, but they serve an incredibly niche purpose. And like there's a lot of stuff that you can build on top of it or or separate to it as a business where you aren't necessarily impacting the core product today. And like yeah, you know, you can point to like on average, the the revenue capability

of like the aggregate peer-to-pool model being somewhere around like 100 million. And like that's that's not nothing. Like if you're a startup at zero, and like trying to chase after 100 million is interesting, but like it's not that big of an opportunity relative to to venture in general. And so like I I guess the example I'd give is something like Maple Finance where they've built a product to serve a purpose. They did not like build a solution to problem that they created. They are using the technology in a way to provide people with the lending contracts that they want, and they're willing to use like off-chain components if it makes their product better. And so I just feel like there's been so much dog or like yak dogma around like building these decentralized networks. And it's like you can talk

about this all you want, but ultimately if you can't achieve it, then perhaps you should build something that works today, makes marginal improvements on lending, and continue to add to it. So, >> Yeah. >> I like I I hear you on like yeah, there's a lot of risk to like upgrading smart contracts. But you don't even need to upgrade the smart contracts. You can build something an entirely new set of smart contracts. And like yeah, you have to do this migration, but like you're migrating capital that is a relatively small pool today relative to like the brand or like the whole borrow lend market just generally. So, I feel like that's kind of cope for the reality that like these people aren't building as fast as they they need to, and the market hasn't punished them enough to feel like that is the case.

>> Yeah, I think that's a sensible take, and I think another sensible take that you had was that you should just add off-chain components if you have to. Like I think for a while it was a big no-no to to not have everything on chain, but I think now we can realize that it's fine to have some off-chain things if it's just going to help you um build a bit faster. Ian, I'm curious why you're back. I didn't add you. And I don't know how you came back on. >> [snorts] >> I came back to nod in agreement to everything that Noah says.

>> And you're doing a very very good job. Um >> Thank you. >> Noah, I'm kind of sad that your your other cynical buddy left, but uh for you, I guess cuz we're at the hour mark now and unfortunately humanity has evolved to a point where you can't really focus on something for longer than 50 minutes, so we're going to have to try and cut it. Um you could buy gun to your head two tokens, you got to hold for a year or let's say like six months, whatever. We can play easy. What are we looking at? >> Yeah, I I don't think this is going to be a big surprise, but I think Maple so like Serum token and and Meta DAO. Um the pitch for Maple right now it's trading at like 120, 130 million.

They moved to second uh place just behind Tether as far as like centralized borrowing player. Although OTC desks are integrated with them, they are undercutting the market on fees, but still making roughly 20 million of revenue. And like generally in these times of um like high price volatility, like you do sometimes have like a decline in net borrow demand, but simultaneously a lot of the desks are using Maple and so like working capital needs actually go up in these types of a market environments cuz of all the dislocations. And so like Maple's like borrow borrow book continues expand. So you know, trading at six times sales here and I think they could potentially flex up their take rate if interest rates on

chain expand. I think that like they're pretty close to break even if not slightly beyond that. But like there's real operating leverage where if you think they can like double their their borrow base and they're going to be trading at like a sub 20 x earnings multiple. So I think there's like a very clear story as to like why this could trade at like a really easy to understand multiple. And I also think there's like the the 5 to 10 x outcome if if Sid and Joe execute on um like moving into tangential markets like fintech lending. So like that's one and then the other Meta DAO trades at like 50 to 60 million, has 10 million of cash. I think we all generally know the story. Um I I think that like the project got a lot of hype in Q4, justifiably, but it definitely got a bit

ahead of itself. And as far as like Profit and Team, we're only three people. And like they had a really good idea, but I think there were a lot of like th- things that were going to have to be broken to realize they needed to be fixed. And so I think like they've made a number of good hires. Now they're a team of eight versus team of three to six months ago. Um they've built out book building capacity, which I think was a big thing that needed to be done as far as like when a project wants to raise capital, they have the list of all the funds in the space to to set up intros. And I think they're getting into like a groove where you could for sure see them do at least one raise a month. And then there's the optionality of them figuring

out how to like make this a bit more scalable without the human capital side of things. In which case they can do a lot more raises and I think like there's a question on how big this can get. But ultimately, I think that for better or worse, the like token markets are somewhat at like a existential risk of ceasing to exist because they haven't produced anything of value. And like although it's not sufficient, it's certainly necessary for companies that launch tokens to make their tokens represent the value of the company as in Meta DAO does a great job of enforcing that today. And so I could see a world where this becomes a standard in the future.

And I've just noticed how difficult it is to recreate something even though on the surface it seems like kind of intuitive how you would build it. Um and so I feel pretty good about their competitive position and so yeah, right now if they're like 50 million adjusted market cap, they're doing like a million to two of revenue and they can expand the number of launches they're doing by two to three X, then they could trade below 10 times sales and then I think you get in the question of like what are the right growth multiples, etc. But I I think there's a potentially big outcome there. Um it's just a bit earlier and a bit like harder to see than Maple, which I can say like a year or two from now could be trading like a pretty easy valuation multiple.

>> I think that makes sense. I will say I don't love them at a doubt story. I never have, but maybe that's because I just don't get it. Syrup, I've been hurt on three times now. And you know what? I will probably get hurt again. I had Martin on few weeks back with Carlos. Um and then I had Sid on few months back. Um I think with people from Advisor. I like their idea of they're not necessarily trying to go for um a lot of the times when the lending guys come on they're like, oh, we're going to, you know, also go become a neo bank or we're going to like, you know, get really like front-endy and we're going to try and build a product.

They're very much like, look, like we know what our like bread and butter is and we're just going to focus on that. Um and I like that vibe from them. So I think Syrup is probably one that I I will focus on going forward. Um and it's always very, very good to get Noah on to say something positive about something even though you kind of know exactly what he's going to say something be positive about. Like if you would ask me, oh, like Noah's speaking nicely about two tokens, what will it be? Syrup and Meta DAO. That makes sense to me. Like it's a it's logical. Um Danny, do you want to say anything or else I'm going to cut us up?

>> That's not the >> I'll throw out a I'll throw out a token into the mix since you didn't ask me what token I was >> about to go ahead. >> for 12 months. I'm going to just throw one out of left field. I think um, I think BNB is an interesting asset. Um, one, just I think people There's a lot of maybe misunderstanding or dislike from us folks in the West. There's this big West-East divide. Um, and it's just a good business. And interestingly enough, I think they've like historically shown that they're willing to shovel some amount of revenues or like success of the business into the token with the way that they've done buyback and burn for a long time.

Um, so I don't know. I think I could see Binance continuing to do well despite maybe what everyone thinks about hype killing BNB or something like that. Um, I think a lot of these things can go up at the same time and I'd probably be less concerned about the day-to-day volatility, you know, in an asset like that. >> I think that makes sense. I was actually going to ask you all this, by the way, that I knew you're you're You're acting like I don't care about you, but I was going to ask you about this in 3 minutes when everybody else had left. >> No, man. >> All right.

Um, Noah, Ian, Ian, thanks again for coming on and just watching Noah speak. I really like that about He'll just sit and watch. Um, Noah, thank you so much for coming on. Um, always a pleasure. And this time as well has been a pleasure. >> Thanks for having me. >> And Ian, obviously you as well. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank thank you, Dakota. >> I got to kick Dakota. Um, just to end everything off, I accidentally kicked Noah off when I said I got to kick Dakota. Just to end everything off, I want to give three shout out four shout out. I want to give a massive shout out to

first of all, Danny, who is the good host and will always be the good host. Um, Danny, thank you so much. I think 2 years, maybe year and a half we've been co-hosts you guys have been very good. Um Ian keeps joining. Massive shout >> [laughter] >> Massive massive shout out to Steph. Um and Mark who left us, which is okay. Um big shout out to also the listeners obviously. Um yeah, thank you guys for Zero X Research and Yeah, I think that's it. Um >> Thank you Bacallao.

Two almost 2 years of doing Zero X together. We've had periods where you ran the show, where I ran the show, where we did it together. And it was a good time all the way through. Well, there were some periods where it it was dog [ __ ] and there were some periods where it was really good, but I think on the whole it was mostly pretty good. >> Yeah, I would say overall it was mostly pretty good. Um I'm happy. I think it was good. Oh, also massive shout out to my wife. Um because she's in the other room working and I'm still yelling on the podcast.

Um big ups. Okay.