Exploring Taiko's Vision for Unified Onchain Experiences and Shared Validity

Transcript

welcome back to the rollup High Roller Community as always nothing on the rollup is to be ConEd as Financial advice we are Educators in the defi space toss us a quick like give us a share a repost send it to a friend who may want to watch this and finally give us a sub or a follow it means the world to help support credibly neutral educational content in def5 we're here to educate Empower and enrich you and let's jump in [Applause] yo what's going on guys welcome back to

the rollup I'm just going to talk right to the camera today because uh you guys are you guys are maybe watching this at home maybe didn't see Dev connect um but we're bringing all the content right to you and uh we're going to have some fun today cuz this has been a blast of week it's been a it's been a chaotic week for sure but there's been tons of knowledge spraying around the space do you guys see what's on Andy's shirt let's hear from him did you see this like I've got polinomial on my shirt and dve like David what do you have to say bro I'm just chilling man know I got to stay comfortable I got the hoodie I got the PJs like I just got to stay East Coast boys the East Coast boys we just buil different so what where you from uh I am

from Virginia actually yeah East Coast so yeah Rob and I are from Florida I don't know if you do any surfing out there in Virginia but uh I've heard that it's pretty nice yeah yeah a lot of a lot of like uh trees forests like good hikes and stuff like that yeah nature guy huge nature guy oh yeah I'd love to uh if you could introduce yourself and uh explain what you're what you're doing to a 5-year-old all right all right to all the 5-year-olds out there um so that sounded weird but uh yeah yeah my name is Dave um I'm a devell at Tao um and yeah basically what I'm focused on is

like a lot of times trying to give like really good education for people about like what Tao is um also just like about like what ethereum and rollups are in general like I really enjoy just like casually talking about it not getting like too crazy technical about stuff and uh yeah just trying to make Tao you know the um try to give the best developer experience we can for Tao for like the developers and users and uh yeah it's pretty much what I what I work on yeah so um before we dive into uh like some of the some of the rollup uh like conversation you can tell us like a little bit about your background and like how you how you found the space all right yeah so uh I worked as uh so I I studied computer science in

school like I was always just into like computers and stuff growing up I always liked you know making stuff and uh yeah so I studied computer science I worked as a software engineer for a little bit and then um I actually ended up working at GameStop you guys you guys know about the whole GameStop out of secret yeah yeah yeah yeah uh yeah I was there on the blockchain team yeah yeah that's actually how I got into it like um exactly that's how I met Matt at GameStop and then uh um yeah yeah from loopbr exactly um so yeah I was working there as engineer and um uh yeah so uh then I just moved on to like Tao and I kind of wanted to try something new like I just found out like when I was working

at GameStop that I really liked uh the the architecture of the product like I like looking into the system architecture and like documenting it and I was like I wanted to kind of get deep into ethereum like learn more about ethereum so uh yeah and I and I I with mat so like I just want to like show yeah it's got to be a personality typ that is like building you you just want to build right right right yeah yeah big Lego guy right no I yeah I love Legos growing H too he he knows it all so so jam stop is definitely familiar to like probably everyone who's watching like are they launching a rollup like just from the inside out like could you tell us a little bit about like the alpha that's

happening right now at GameStop and like or while you were while you were there like what was the transition that they were that were they were going uh yeah so while I was there they were they weren't building like a rollup they were just building a two products like an nft Marketplace and also like a a wallet extension um yeah both of them were like honestly really nice products uh but yeah no rollup they were just building on top of like Loop ring and I think IM mutable X at the time um yeah ready deck guys that was SE just czy was it a DEX I swear it was a DEX R sh Dex and it was a l to see at that time like just pure just big companies coming in and be like yo we want part this is yeah stop

was huge right right it's coming off that whole like Med ch right right yeah you were reting something would have happened there yeah yeah yeah yeah oh no oh no not with not during kind of like the meme uh Madness and everything but like yeah during like the last like bull run like the nft kind of Bor I was I was there yeah yeah knows yeah that the atmosphere must have been crazy yeah yeah St everyone was like holy crap what is going on yeah so so you had a a passion to build things pistal things Legos I was a big Star Wars Lego guy myself okay then you kind of turn that into like wanting to do computer science like building the

abstract yeah yeah like is it a is it um is it something that you still do a lot as a DE is is there is there Engineering in your day-to-day was mostly working with there oh yeah that's a good question it's it's like um I think it's kind of when you work at like uh an infrastructure layer kind of like Tao like um a lot the devell experience is like maybe different than if you had like a really I don't know it's like what we're delivering is like a kind of like a very technical thing for like developers it's not as much as like uh it's not the same type of devil experience I think you get at other companies where you're doing maybe like more marketing trying to get like more people on your product like this is like very educational like very technical so

like yeah we have an opportunity we don't do like engineering like writing code dayto day but like we have to understand like the protocol and the architecture well so that um yeah because that's like really what you know the product is that we're trying to deliver a great experience for and also write all the documentation so I would say no there's not like like direct engineering in terms of like writing the protocol code or the client code but there's like still that sense of like um I think a lot of people on crypto have or you're just trying to figure out how to design something in in the best way you know I mean like what's the best way to kind of like figure this out and the team's still like small enough to where it's like yeah everybody kind of wears that hat of trying to figure out the

best way to do things a lot of the the building that like we do and I I take it that uh like developer relations at either at Tao or a lot of the projects is like building relationships which is a ma a major part and it's still very much like a constructive type of practice and like maintaining that right because you're kind of like the the middleman or the Gateway from like you know people who don't really understand engineering and development to like the depths right and so you kind of have to be like this almost like layer of osis or something like middleware type book like yeah so do you embody that like that role yeah yes it's uh honestly that's what makes Devo like really challenging and it's like it's just it's

something that needs to exist because it's like if you you need to have that inner layer and I think the most important thing that a Devo can do I think almost anyone but it's especially important for devell is like you just have to be able to filter out certain things so that you can focus on like the core product the most important experiences and everything like so you have to be kind of systematic organized and like just know what are the right things to focus on because otherwise it's very easy to get pulled all around and just have so many different like UH responsibilities when you're when you're serving that kind of middle layer you know like you you'll be doing everything from like going to conferences and like giving talks to like yeah actually like

almost auditing your the protocol like reading through the code and everything and it can just it can be super wide so you have to know like are you doing like the most impactful work like the things that just drive the most value is there a general pattern that yeah like is there a general pattern that you could suggest to other like devr maybe BD like what what are some of the like General practices that you find are helpful to filter out what's not important like what do you find commonly are like some of those things that like the misconception people might think that they're important but they're really not the most impactful and then also like what is the most impactful yeah so honestly if I were to give like one piece of advice it would just be to use whatever product you have like at least I don't know once

a week or at some Cadence like we do at least once a week but like just whatever you have like whatever product it is just use it just just consume it like even if you're giving talks and stuff like we're doing stuff like this right just watch your content or walk through your own tutorials and guys just use it and it it's like I don't know you have to do that you know even you I think all of us have like a lot of Pride like in our work and everything like that so like yeah you you got to be able to like use your product and when if you have a lot of pride in it you'll see the things that are like off you'll see the things that you want to improve and like that's the thing that'll like most directly improve like what your yeah what your

product is like the thing that you're actually delivering right and and and yeah that's the most important thing for Tao it's something like people come to our website uh or Twitter and they come to try to learn about like what Tao is and they try to use it deploy a contract so running through that workflow frequently is is probably the best way that I know how to like do the most important experimenting the also like being your own uh harshest critic you know and that and that's kind of how you grow and how you're able to elevate your your game now um I'm more Curious kind of last question that I have on like the more personal side before we dive into some of the uh base rups which is like like there's been multiple Concepts that

I've heard of in this week that I was just like how I thought I knew so much about the modular and the rollup space and it's just like um but Which languages did you study which programing languag did you study and uh do you know and like do does that help you with your position do you have to learn new languages to to do devil um yeah like in college kind of which ones did you study um so I mean in college I just studied Java so that's what I used and when I worked as a software engineer I used the Java as well which honestly good language yeah uh in terms of like uh you know back in like web to uh a lot when you're trying to like interview for

like companies and like get into like you know these like Fang companies and stuff like that you end up doing a lot of like Puzzles and um yeah I would always use like python because python is like a very easy language to just do whatever idea you have you can just like do it in Python like very easily uh very fluidly so yeah python JavaScript C stuff like that and then all is a lot of the stuff now solidity based with go in yeah right right exactly a lot of it is solidity based uh two languages that I'd love to learn that I think would be useful is like go and also rust is like very popular because a huge if you think about what ethereum really is it's these clients that are written and the major

ones are written in like go and rust so um that's something that I have like on my my my my bucket list like that I want to like dive deeper into and and learn more about but yeah solidity being one well it's time to dive into the weeds boys I was I I jumped into uh epic eth INF for day where where our boy had a talk here um and he pulled out a term uh precompilers which is an interesting term in in uh you know the world of of zkm specifically if I'm not mistaken just kind of Roll-Ups in general so we're going to leave that one for about five more minutes so definitely keep watching but let's talk about based Roll-Ups and what that means uh I had a

talk with Justin Drake I was watching a talk and he was talking about that based native Roll-Ups as well which is kind of perhaps a second layer there um I don't really recall and by the look of your face you I'm not sure if you know either all right well let's just start with Bas rollups and why using like L1 sequencing um and kind of L1 properties uh is is uh can be seen as having advantages so yeah I guess uh for a 5-year-old uh let's talk about base rollups um so a base rollup is uh yeah for the the new members of the audience uh it's basically just means that like um you for any roll up someone needs to

post these transactions that everyone wants to do uh to ethereum or Celestia or some data availability layer right like you just need to store that data somewhere and usually this is done by like as it sounds like a sequencer like that you have to put these on that layer at some type of order right so they cuz you know ethereum and and blockchains in general they're State machines right like they they they they go state by state like step by step so there's always a sequence you know what I mean and anyways that's why we have this term like a sequencer a sequencer takes all this stuff people want to do they want to do trades blah blah blah um and a sequencer yeah takes a set of those transactions and they post it to

ethereum or CEST it Etc now for a base scrollup that sequencer isn't like a whitelisted or like specialized Ro like for a lot of the rollups like they operate a sequencer so it has like a certain like ethereum address and only that sequencer is allowed to post the data to the smart contract uh yeah on on ethereum so that's what like having a a centralized sequencer is for a base rollup anybody can just post the data to create the rollup right like so if you want to create a block on Tao you can literally just run it a node like you can go to our docs you can run a node and then you'll have access to that a m pool that just is all the transactions

that um people have sent into the network and you can just take some of those transactions and you can create you can just create a block and tyo anyone can you know so that's what it means to be a base rollup like uh it's totally permissionless like block proposing and um if you think about it like the person who's really putting this on chain uh ends up being the the validator on ethereum right so um yeah and why do we do this why do we do a base rollup like um one thing that you'll Noti is based rollups also end up centralizing in in in interesting way like a lot of people talk about like decentralized sequencers and stuff but uh yeah the thing is is um there's when

there's like Capital available on the table like money available on the table like things will always tend to centralize for that person to get those gains you mean to be able to extract that value so um actually even base rollups end up centralizing a little bit around block Builders um and but yeah it's not actually a bad thing as uh I actually chatted with uh Justin Drake as well about this uh yesterday and when we have like inclusion lists um and block Builders can't really censor transactions it'll be um it'll be fun like it's it's not calization is actually I know I'm kind of going on here but I think one important thing to keep in mind is centralization is like not necessarily a bad thing like it does

my take like we say like decentralization centralization like like they are usually uh you know it's usually nice to have decentralized properties but really what we're looking for is like censorship resistance like liveness of the network like those are the kind of qualities we want but yeah yeah I think just real quick on the uh on on the base rollup side um we saw that there's in in that presentation there's there's less toxic M which is kind of I think a little bit where you're where you're alluding also there's uh less risk of a network reset where um you know say this single point of failure for centralized sequen here goes down there you know you you have a

bunch of downtime and then you know you could risk having kind of this network reset or or these or people leaving um and not coming back um and kind of lose your your uh your uh kind of community or your network effects um and then I think um you know there was a couple other key uh components that you kind of explained there which is yeah I mean it's it's definitely an interesting one so Rob if you if we could sum up base rollups I think you you have a question but um I'd love to kind of hear what your perspectives on Bas rollups so I calling this conception that I had with maybe this was just kind of like along my journey as I was

learning about this stuff was that like if I submit my transaction with like a really high gas even if my transaction has the highest gas doesn't mean that my transaction is going to get post the blockchain first it it's not like that simple whereas like the highest gas gets posted first there is this network of sequencers and they can choose to pick up whichever transactions they choose to pick up um the incentives point to the ones that get the high that pay the highest gas the sequences and the high gas is going to pay the most for that slot in the block but there's all these things like where that transaction is coming from if there is like front running or back running opportunities in that transaction that that may also have

kind of like underneath uh incentives that could also pay these sequenc Series in these validators so I I think that's one takeaway from from these rollup mechanisms is that it's not always the highest gas that that wins the fastest transaction um when it when it and that's uh that's uh characteristic of of rollups in general um because they're these are all transactions that are getting posted to to the L1 with respect to base rollups um my understanding is that there's certain trade-offs um and some of those trade-offs are with security because these based rollups uh and and I'm still wrapping my head around this because I think base rollof

is something that like I heard about like four or five days ago maybe and like I didn't mean to put show on this it's okay so like my my understanding of like why based rollups are special um is because uh they they use the L1 for settlement um and that's not characteristic of all rollups so they they use certain properties of of the L1 whereas other rollups um do not use as much of the L1 maybe it's data availability maybe it's other characteristics of the L1 that's like still very high level because I don't know exactly what charact like what parts of the L1 based rollups you use whereas other rollups may not use that part is it is it the sequencer is it the

data availability part like what what's special and I think you probably know know about this better than I do like what is it about the L1 that based rollups use that other rollups don't um yeah that's a great question so like I'd say there's like two things that come uh off top of my mind I'm sure there's more for the bigger experts on BAS ups but yeah exactly the gigar brains uh like like like our CTO and Justice stuff but the two things that just come right to my mind are like one it's permissionless right so what that means is like anybody can build blocks they can sequence these transactions and I think it um yeah I think that's just a very interesting just a really

interesting thing that ends up happening because we end up having a sequencer it just ends up being a block Builder like it's a permissionless thing um so that's one feature we kind of they get out of it it's like anyone can just come in and like participate in the system extract me um and then yeah become like a block Builder uh the second thing is uh Justin uh talked about in a new eth research post he released a few days ago where he talked about like based pre- confirmations but the basic idea is that like if the validators can opt in like some slashing conditions um they can put up yeah they can opt into those and give like um pre-confirmation to that uh to users that their transaction will be included um so

that's like a feature that you usually can only get from like centralized sequencers um but we can actually achieve that uh with a with a base rollup um quick quick clarification like when when I think about based rollups and and the uh components of the L1 that they used like my understanding is that when I submit a transaction to a based rollup it goes directly to ethereum's mempool is that true essentially yes it's um it it essentially yes but it it there's uh it'll go to an alternate mle um it'll go to an alternate mle first maybe you can send them to ethereum's meole I'm actually not 100%

sure I think I think that would be a little bit uh it did it it could work there could be some shared mle but like the the basic idea is is correct like these transactions will land into a shared M poool for like that the L2 clients are running and then a block proposer anyone who's looking at that mol will just take a um a sequence of those and they'll just submit it into a single transaction in ethereum's me pool so the the Bob the basically use who's a builder on in theor know a right right so yeah so an ethereum validator ultimately or the the ethereum

proposer will pick up that transaction and they're the ultimate sequencer that's why we we call it like uh sequencing by the L1 validators because I mean they can always choose what to do with the mempool they can just not even look at the meole create their own transactions so yeah the base rollup is really just where the sequencing is 100% yeah design uh U decided by the L1 validator all let's get it so in your talk at Epic e infer day a couple days back you were speaking a lot about base to roll up which is uh unique to Tao um which essentially allows uh teams of daps to deploy daps onto l2s uh Tao and others I assume uh without needing to

basically change the code or redeploy uh you can essentially just like almost like Port it over for lack of better term right um so again I'm going to get keep the audience very curious and we're going to come back to the pre-compiler topic which is um basically using these different different types of subsets of uh kind of smart contract programming or code sets that may not be in solidity or in a given language but you're able to kind of Port them in and then uh execute them in smart contracts and so I I think these two kind of go hand in hand uh with you know what you guys are trying to do with base boosted rollups so um yeah how are you guys utilizing these L1 call data uh precompilers and other

precompilers to execute uh based boosted rups okay that was a really good explanation of yeah uh pre- compiles like so the basic idea is just like you said we can um it's a way to add functionality into an ethereum client yeah without like there's basically kind of like two ways to do this like one you can add like an OP code which is like an instruction that's inside of the ethereum virtual machine um or you can add a pre-compile and um that allows you yeah it'll sit at some contract that address and when you call that pre-compile it will execute some code um that can be whatever you want whatever

feature that you want inside of that client so yeah to keep it let's keep it simple let's still keep it yeah like uh simple for 5-year-olds I'd say um the basic idea is this layer 2 clients must be running layer one clients as well they have to be running ethereum notes or have access to one it's uh it's fundamental to building the the the layer two um so we know that for every L2 not just Tao so these precompiled basically take advantage of that property that L2 nodes must be running an L1 node so the idea is can we kind of like combine the two to some degree and

like if if we know that we always have access to the L1 node then can we just like execute things inside of that L1 node and if you can kind of like stay with me that basic idea is like let's say there's just as an example some Oracle data that's on layer one right and let's say you have a smart contract in layer on Layer Two you could like you know like Port like Port it over like like like you know and uh and then read the Oracle data on like L2 but one thing you can do is you can just read that data directly you have the layer one node right there so you can literally read data uh directly from L1 and essentially the way we think about it is you can interact with L1 itself just

from layer 2 um and when we say from layer 2 we just mean that like these are things that are happening outside of ethereum's you know consensus things that people are actually doing there so we're doing all this off chain and yeah that's that's the basic idea we have some pre-compiled that allow you to call that layer one and to get into the boosted rollups and and how those take it how those take advantage of these pre- compiles is I'd say let's keep it super simple the way to the the uh the the basic idea is yeah you don't need to deploy to Layer Two you don't need to uh yeah deploy your ad to Layer Two you just have it on layer one and booster

rollups can just scale your application um the way you can kind of think of it is a booster rollup is like adding extra storage or an extra memory or CPU to your app which is already on layer one and it's it's it's pretty groundbreaking uh I think uh nil is also working on a similar thing with ZK sharding um but which is awesome to see like uh other people in the space thinking the same ideas as we are right like it kind of validates this thesis to some degree I think for dap developers when I try to like empathize and be in their position um they still have both options they can just deploy to a non boosted booster rollup they can can

deploy their application there and get that kind of scale that they are used to um but they're going to have to keep in mind like the security properties are going to have to like Bridge some logic in they're going to have their contract in two places and when I like kind of empathize with the developer to some degree like I think it's really enticing to only have your application in one place on on ethereum and not need to deploy to to any of the l2s and if other l2s like um polygon optimism Etc we're all running gu this like execution client if we can all Implement these kinds of pre-compiled work together and figuring out good ones then anyone can boost their their adaps from layer one

on on any of the rollups you know so it just gives a new kind of development flow um um for for for adap developers so I think it's pretty cool yeah I think it's really cool that that dap devillers don't have to change their contract addresses and kind of make new contracts on on L2 that's like a big uh you know a big step for him often in this like kind of cross chain multi-chain World a lot of daps are trying to be on a ton of different chains which you know it it sounds like this could alleviate some of those headaches and also make it more uh secure and I remember Marson from ZK syc was busting everyone's balls at uh epic e INF and actually I think he complimented your talking I think he said this was really cool and I was like

wow did that guy just give out a compliment to to H for his talk uh and on another note we actually just interviewed with uh Misha from nil um and they mentioned how you guys were collaborating in some extent to kind of push this space forward yeah um which I think is super cool my first question on the boosted rollup side is uh is are these boosted rollups uh are they going to only be app specific rollups or is it is it possible to have a general purpose rollup with you know 20 different daps that are all hosted on L1 uh but all can interoperate on a general purpose role or is this only for app specific yeah that's actually a really good question and it the answer is it

could be both like you could have a booster rollup um that and remember a true booster rollup this is like where the naming gets a little uh weird but I'll try to explain it like a booster rollup is one that perfectly mirrors ethereum so and anyone can use this like all the contract addresses every contract address proxies to its it's layer one um there's the other idea that Kai talked about where you could have a booster enabled rollup that's where you can just take a roll up like uh you know op main net or something like that right you implement these pre-compiled and then they can suddenly access L1 State they can deploy these Proxes and and they can do it too but it's not like every it's not like the the rollup is a perfect mirror of layer one uh yeah so

um wait I kind of L specific and general right right um so yeah it could be that you use a booster rollup and um you could have like a bunch of different daps using that one booster roll up um or you could take one of these things and this this like perfect mirror of the L1 and you can just run your own booster roll up and and and and yeah you can just kind of have that beat it's kind of like an app chain to some degree but yeah and then is is that the plan for Tao is Tao going to be a based boosted rollup um and if yes or no why or or why not and kind of what's the uh let's dive into the DAP ecosystem that you guys plan to launch with as

well uh yeah so uh for us like we really just want to like we can't really assert exactly how things are going to look so what we want to do is like just be as enabling as possible for developers and see what they decide to pick up on decide to use so that's why I kind of said there's no downsize to the booster role to some degree because you don't have you could scale your application just regularly and in that case you know the kind of daps that we're looking for are like yeah the ones that just like are the most enabling for the ecosystem um things that you know are related to like account abstraction privacy uh things like that uh are things that are very important for us like they just enable people to build like whatever

they want on Tai go um so yeah and then in terms of like I mean one a vision I think everyone kind of has some degrees like it would have been like if you try to turn it all the way back like what we really wanted in the first place like really ideally is that ethereum is just a single chain like itself right like we actually didn't really want all these like l2s and stuff like it would be nice if like I mean in the really ideal case you just have the ethereum RPC node like so RPC provider like RPC ethereum.org or whatever and that's it it just it's it's not not expensive to use there's no l2s there's no like sandwiching attacks all that's too optimistic but I I say that

because that's still the vision that I think all the l2s honestly are strived for right we don't want this to look like there's all this fragmentation all these different Chains It's like weird for users so there's an idea at Tao where we want to have these based booster rollups um and all of them share a validity they they they they share validity on layer one this is something you can do um when you have a shared sequencer a based Ro sequencing is actually considered shared sequencer because um yeah it it uh the validator can insert blocks to any of these rollups um so yeah we we have an idea to make Tao look like a single chain uh and

yeah and just it doesn't look like a bunch of fragmentation even having like thousands of instances of Tao in parallel so I I didn't see Justin DRS talk on based rollups but um I did catch one of eic's presentations about validium um and we don't have to get too in in into that but I'm curious about like how this model of shared validity like like when all these drups are boosted and they're proxying the state of ethereum and and all of ethereum's addresses um it's easy for the validators to to validate this state because they're all proxying ethereum

state H how it is it too optimistic to think that like these rollups could become validium where they kind of like share the validity of their proxy ethereum State therefore all of uh the rollups are understanding like what's valid at a given point um and like does validium get get us there if like essentially what V was talking about is this like plasma layer that can go on top of rollups and he's also describing how like these rollups can be I think can become validium rollups uh by layering on top this like validity layer um which sounds like it's almost like uh it's like translating the state of all these

rollups into something that ethereum can understand and it sounds very similar to what you're describing by proxying the ethereum state do are you familiar with validium and and if so like how can we like capitalize validium to kind of make a more um like to to keep rollups more consistent between between their states overall uh yeah so I'm a little bit familiar with vums not super super familiar but yeah I think that um and I I did see vitalic post on like plasmus as well I didn't see the talk though I I'd love to check it out but um I think that it does give the general uh Trend

and I kind of agree with this idea too that there's going to be um multiple scaling Solutions not just rollups and I think that these like um these like really uh transaction heavy or like right heavy applications like gaming and things like that um that can accept some like uh lower security guarantees for like most of their operations I think these like validium and and plasmas and stuff will be very enticing um but we're still always going to need rollups as like the golden kind of scaling solution for the more important things like maybe like account management and things that are like more uh security critical so I think that I think we're going to have

like a mixture you know like I kind of Imagine in some way that like dap developers are just kind of like they're just kind of like selecting which one they want right there might be like some some dashboard or something oh I want to like do my dap as a validium or a roll up or this or that like I think there's going to be ways for them to choose uh features that give them yeah lower costs yeah yeah that's that's always how I understood it as well as validium are kind of like a lower a lower security higher throughput kind of mechanism for even for like um data availability and and scaling and kind of all that so um yeah on like the if you imagine like a

line where it's like vums are here and then my rollups would be like up here and it's xais would be like cost or like gas use and why would be like security right yeah they would Al you know they they'd be very cheap so less secure then you have different like um like celes is got like their their data avity layer like that they have like optim optimums or optimums or something uh and then you have like data availability committees and then rollups obviously at the top so yeah gaming or kind of social applications or different things like that uh potentially there as we kind of wrap up here we're going to have some fun and you're not allowed to think you're just allowed to answer okay um and what is your favorite zkm my favorite ZK evm yes uh uh powders powder

powder um can you say something nice about an a different ZK evm based project other than Tao uh yeah I think uh honestly nil Foundation has been pretty cool I like what they're doing and the way they're thinking about things nice um I like I like them all honestly everyone has been chill I mean not to expand too much but like it's so weird like you meet people from like polygon the events people from ZK saying like people from a like they're all just chill like we're like we're all like when we meet up we're just homies you I mean like it's just it's chill so it's the same vision it's the same vision like so we got to beef sometimes you we're going to beef we're going to beef with nil on on Twitter like for sure we got to that's Innovation happens you

know right right right yeah Z rups or op theistic rups Z rollups of course of course I yeah uh Litecoin or Bitcoin cash Litecoin I Ro is is like that everybody hates Bitcoin cash that's just a scary one Bitcoin cash is like run the other way like uh zyink or polygon ZK VM ZK sink oh my God Satoshi or Craig right Satoshi ECC or Dev connect Dev connect I agree it's been it's been awesome it's been sweet yeah uh Ripple or St lumens RI or what

Stellar Lumen xlm Ripple Sheba or Doge Shea Shea Shea the the the new dog on the Block dogs or cats cats okay do you have cats I don't know like I had a cat like uh there was a cat in my in my in my slides you got to check it out but do a girlfriend see I had a cat the C cat was my girlfriend's cat but I don't have the girlfriend anymore and I don't have the kind proof of work or proof of steak proof of steak Yeah BBWs or BBS BBs bbr's for sure Twitter or

Instagram Twitter thanks Ben thank you that was a fun one I like the head man it's been a pleasure man and uh shout out to to Tao keep on keep on pushing on the education the tech side and everything just keep scaling ethereum yeah yeah and thank you guys I mean this is an awesome format and I I would love to do like more of these formats and see more of it just from other teams and everyone as well so really appreciate what you guys are doing in the space as well in terms of Education love to have you on man you're you guys are going to see a lot more Tao content and uh yeah all right it's you thanks