Exploring Digital Identity in the AI Era

Transcript

GMGM. Welcome to what's going to be another fantastic episode of Devantel. So, if you didn't know, Devontel is a 30-minute podcast held every week allowing founders, hackers, and anyone in between an opportunity to come around the show and talk about their products. And today, I'm ecstatic to welcome Carill Avery to the show. So, Carill is a serial founder, self-taught coder, and holds the title of the youngest solo founder to be accepted into Y Combinator, among other things. Uh so if you stick around for today's episode, uh you'll get to meet Carl and enjoy a candid discussion around digital identity and privacy in the AI era. All right, let's do this.

[Music] >> GMGM, welcome to the show, Crew. Uh thank you so much uh for taking the time out of your day to come chat with us today. >> Good to be here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I know you you have quite the the tenure background for someone uh so young. Uh so it's really amazing to see um people like you and I'm really uh really privileged to be able to to have you on the show here today. And I guess um for folks who aren't familiar um with yourself um did you just want to give a brief uh introduction about yourself?

>> Sure. Yeah. Um so my name is Carill. I I was originally born in Russia and then I moved um to the US when I was a teenager. Um I started coding coding when I was like 11 um or like 10 and uh um briefly like and just uh moved into like building uh mobile social apps um and spent like basically since like I was like 11 building consumer social apps. So I kind of like live through the whole era of like how social and mobile apps and social apps like have been um um how the phases have been shifting and um um when when I was a teenager I I I was I built a um a social app uh which got like 15 million users. It was like

an age trivia but for Europe. Um and uh was pretty fun story. Um I remember like when when I was uh um uh maybe like 16 um I was u I could walk on any major city major major street of of of Europe and then um in Eastern Europe and ask like any girl that would approach me, do you have that app? And um everybody had that app at the time. So of course she would have that app. Um she would open the app for me and um I would press on a specific place uh of the screen and the picture of me would pop up. So it was like an eastern egg where I could like approach any girl. But yeah, I moved to the US and um because I realized that I have like achieved everything I could and also there is like a lot of things

that that politically changed in the country um where I'm from which I now like I've seen before what what and now you kind of like see the results of of like what I've seen um like basically like almost 10 years ago. um and um um got into Y cominator um was was trying to build another social app but then I realized like that the era of social apps has ended that was before AI um so now there's probably like a new window that has opened um and like I've I've I've like was thinking a lot about like what is the thing that is very very important for the world to build and to fix um so I could like serve the society

um and that I would like be actually like willing to do that for the next like 10 to 15 years. And there's actually not too many things in the world. But the the one thing that stands out um from from the spectrum of all the things is um really like ambitious ideas that kind of like you can just like cannot unsee it. And um I feel like digital identity like from the first perspective sounds like something like very um nerdy and uh there's no really like applyable like thing that you can imagine um compared to for example AGI right but actually um it is like a thing that is connected to all the information networks and internet is the biggest

information network that we have. So um and uh and and it is tied to every single use case over there and it is not built correctly. So um from from the appearance the first like inception of the internet and so um that's kind of like was the the the the original idea and and specifically like I was thinking about like the internet based governments like what is now called network states before they were called that way. Um and that this is kind of like our future. Um and but in order for that to happen like there is a lot of like innovation that needs to happen before now and then. So yeah.

>> Awesome man. Yeah it seems like seems like uh you chose uh uh one of the more uh promising uh verticals um to uh kind of deep dive into. um digital identities and privacy are going to be quite um quite lucrative and quite important for um basically everyone who who uses the internet kind of going forward especially now with AI being so prominent and I guess um like with that uh we can kind of get into the the area of digital identity since you mentioned it. So before we kind of like deep dive into it, like perhaps we want to take a step back like what would you um define as digital identity in today's day and

age? >> Um so what would I define today's problem with digital identity? Um I guess the um the main thing is that people actually don't realize what identity is like fully like when you type in your password or your email address um or when you um you can do whatever like when you unlock your phone with with with u face ID um it is all tied to like an an identifier and to your profile which is actually your identity. Um and currently um what basically happened like I think Jack Dorsey like recently gave an podcast interview where he he was saying about

this like in a really like perfect language um was that the internet appeared it was all protocol based and uh there was um multiple protocols um people experimented on on protocols for sharing information um and uh um at some point um um the companies like back in 2005, right? Uh have discovered um that you can centralize a discovery layer and uh because of that you can um uh you can monetize it and then there's like a lot of things you can do with that and that happened because protocols were there in the first place. If that innovation didn't happen that that would not be

enabled. And so the thing that that is happening um with um with identity is like they centralize that layer um and um you can monetize it by selling the data of users um when users are contributors um without actually like users um without paying anything to users like just fully monetizing it on on that. But the problem is not just that. the problem is that people actually don't care about that problem. Um uh so they're totally fine. And then when we talk about privacy, um the u the human nature is to um not kind of look at like long-term problems. And that is

like a really long-term problem because like when you have the problems of like governments seizing like specific um kind of like actions or like blocking specific like parts of the internet, for example, what is happening in Russia right now? Um it is a longer term effect of that, but people don't see that in in the present. And because people don't see that in the present, they kind of don't think about this as a problem. So privacy is like the the main the main right and like ownership self-s sovereign data is kind of like what is missing currently. Um because data any form of data is actually a part of identity stack. So identity is just like the lower foundation of that. Um and so that's kind of like one big thing.

Another big thing with with identity is um you um you can create um a bunch of bot accounts and uh create a lot of misinformation um and that would not be a problem if actually platforms would have a like a good way to fight it but they don't and because of that like you actually with AI have a much like a very steep um kind of like down with uh um the problem of eroding trust. Um and um the example I I can give here is like a bot account is actually someone creates an identity.

Capture is no longer working, right? And um the uh um identity specifically uh is uh uh becoming a thing that is very cheap to to forge. And it was very cheap to forge before. Uh but before that in order to to to manage like the farms of bots you had to like actually sit there and uh have real people behind like write write comments and stuff like that. But now it's just like you don't need to do that. Like it's it's it's like completely um really like just just free, right? So um that's kind of like the thing and um trust is specifically connected to to the

identity. So like that that that all kind of like creates this problem of what is the future of information networks where AI is kind of like uh becoming much smarter um and being used at all the parts of the stack um and how do we actually keep the human connection uh between each other um and at the same time the data ownership is very important because what's happening with AI right now is platforms of AI platforms they are taking the same step towards um what um Meta and and Twitter and all the companies did which is centralizing the the discovery layer. Um so

>> yeah. Yeah, definitely. And and it especially um like you you touched on it just the fact that um the lines between um what's human and what's AI are really starting to kind of blur. Uh now nowadays like a couple years before like you could easily tell like some some like video generated thing or AI voice thing was like AI, right? Like you'd have like the the 10 fingers or something on a on a hand or like some like the voice kind of like came off robotic. But nowadays like you need a very small like real life voice sample to clone somebody's voice or like just a few pictures to to make

like a nice nice uh video image of somebody right so >> um yeah >> there is a very important piece here which is >> I just need to clarify this is not bad this is actually really cool technology and I'm I'm I would I love to see that in the world um and I think AI is great I'm not like a part of doomer people like that are just like we have to stop it or something like that. I'm just thinking at the same time that like like what could go wrong and like how can we like like navigate the humanity to like the right kind of like place. Um that's the only kind of thought but yeah please continue.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely like uh I think it's really um the tech is like really amazing too especially the um how fast is kind of improved just within a few years time. But like like you said, um it's kind of like you need to be able to distinguish still at least in my mind between the two the two. Right. So uh I guess back to digital identities. Um I know that um you mentioned a lot that was kind of um I don't know if wrong is is the right word, but perhaps things that need fixing. Um like what do you think works um with um today's digital identity um solutions?

what today works with them. >> Yeah. Like um what's what's right with them? Um and like I know that you you mentioned there's a lot lot of things to to to fix, but like what do you think works? Like we have um these um digital wallets, like blockchain wallets, right, that act like a a decent layer um like a good next step, but is there anything else perhaps people u people don't realize is already like well established today? >> Yeah, that's a good question. Well, uh I feel like there are some pieces that exist like in different areas of of of the whole like technological space um and both in web 2 and web 3. um that have issues with like thinking about

adoption curve. Like the main problem actually what I see in um if I look at like any link that my friends send me about like new identity project whatever it is like web two web three um is that nobody thinks about like how this thing will be adopted by people um and um or at least they they they think that they will just like pay grants to to different developers that would like build something and then because of that it's it's it's not going to happen like you're not going to like get 8 billion people it right. So uh you need to have like a really smart way to do that and um the um things that do not really work like that things that work specifically I feel like is there are great innovations that are happening uh with

like the the pass keys like technology I think it's still like relatively early um for example for our products we do not use them yet um because we think that it is uh ultimately requires like to use a password manager not Not too many people have that. Um, with wallets, uh, it's definitely like people are are talking and like we're we're talking for a long time that actually wallets are like your identity and, uh, um, and and something like that. There is a there is like obviously like your private key is like connected to to like different activities. So because of that and it is like your your identifier. Um but the

thing that is missing is um actually same question how can like a billion people adopt this and I don't think that just like keeping a private key and just deriving everything from it um makes sense uh fully um and um the uh yeah so kind of like different aspects I think like works um Um I I would I would say that I I don't really think too much about like what is working as like as a founder. I try to like focus on like what is not working. Um >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense, man. Yeah. Yeah. Um and I guess uh I've always like when when this uh sorry when this um when the notion of like digital walls kind of came out, I thought it was really cool. Um, lot of I think you touched on a lot of these like social apps. Um, at least the the blockchain enabled ones. Um, we're really touting >> transferability transferability between between Yes. That >> is like you own you own your data. Yeah. This kind of piece of it. >> Um, the thing is like major platforms are not integrated them. So you kind of like they keep the data with them and uh in order for you to like start suddenly owning like majority of your data um you

need to have the apps that you use regularly to be compatible with that and that that didn't happen. So >> yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And then the the other thing too is um these um these identity solutions they're they're transparent, right? like anyone can can look into it. And the fact that they're tied into money kind of like creates this weird kind of kind of vibe, let's say, around them where it's like, oh, uh, before like I couldn't see into your like your finances, right? But now, like if I know what your wallet address is and like I can see how much money you have, right?

And it's kind of like it kind of defeats the purpose kind of um at least um around that notion of of privacy, right? And maybe this is a good segue um into into that. um like there's a lot of um interesting innovations kind of coming out around zero knowledge um tech and whatnot, but doesn't seem to be landing in the consumer side of of the spectrum yet in the consumer apps. Um like what do you think of of uh zero knowledge um zero knowledge tech in in the realm of privacy and how you think it'll help?

Yeah, I feel like it's still relatively early and specifically like it's becoming cheaper to in terms of computation um it's still quite technically savvy um to do custom circuits uh for zero knowledge um and uh it definitely like requires a lot of like thought process. So um um I think this is a great tech and I think that uh the uh uh we should start like utilizing it in in in more places. I feel like the uh uh big platforms it would be ideal example if they could

like start doing that for authentication or something like that. But um it it is it is it can be used like in in multiple um kind of like dimensions. Um for us for example, we also know like uh internally that uh for example you could use TE's trust trusted execution environments as an like as a as a technology that could be the same kind of like create privacy in the same manner but it's kind of like easier to replicate uh and build. Um um but you can enable like private transfers, you could enable like u private authentications uh disclosure of information um and uh um I think metallic has like a lot of

different things that you can like if you think about the whole stack of like blockchains um uh about like proving something to someone um that that that makes sense. So, um I'm looking forward seeing that more in in like different products that that are enabled today. >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, I mean, one thing that I've I've seen, um, I don't know if you heard of them, but, uh, Nelian, um, they have built a, um, a chat basically kind of like a chat GPT kind of thing, but they've integrated a zero knowledge tech um, into it so that basically um, everything is kind of like encoded and no one but yourself can kind

of see what the the chat history is. So, um I I definitely am starting to see some of it like some of that tech kind of >> there are a lot of products that I've seen like that actually propose your knowledge as the use case but it's not really the use case like that's the problem like it is the use case for like a really nerdy small like number of people kind of like audience. Uh but it is not something that would go wild. Um and maybe this is like the the the the place in in terms of like the like the uh evolution of that technology where we are right now and and then like it it it becomes mainstream after um um while trying all the things. But like I

encourage people encourage people to think more about uh um I guess uh how to apply that and and and like when you find the product market like in a in a nerdy audience of like crypto enthusiasts like how do you get um around and like actually go beyond that? >> Yeah, totally. Uh and I guess this is uh this might be another nice segue here. Um, let's talk about the current state of just like consumer apps in the crypto industry. Um, or maybe lack thereof. Uh, like what are your thoughts on kind of

the the industry as a whole and trying to get away from um basically the infrastructure layer which I think is already well established >> um and into building things that regular folks can use the the non- energy people. I feel like there is a lack of product people in the space and specifically like really good product people um and lack of designers. Um the um there are basically two major audiences um that are building in this space. Um and by the way I wouldn't say that I'm building specifically in crypto like what I'm what I'm doing is I am solving real world problems. It just happens to have like the back end is is is using crypto. And this is like I think the mindset that more people

should take when they start applying that I'm in crypto. Um two things happen like first is there are people who are like really good with like original values of crypto funks and stuff like that. um and and and Bitcoin maximalisms um the uh they're like building the infrastructure uh sometimes it's really smart and and like really like if you go in deep like really beautiful solutions and do not think at all about like how this thing is going to be adopted or like um how users will interact with it or how they get adoption and distribution. Um and uh the other part is uh people who are relatively new and they're coming specifically because of

the money part. Um and they don't care about the whole like decentralization aspect. Like if you see the project in crypto that is like saying oh this decentralization like um coming sometime later um and but this is like should be the core proposition. Um I I always like see that as a red flag potentially. Um but the uh the the main thing is like uh the nothing is wrong with like just being for money but the the the thing is like I feel like this whole kind of like paradigm shift should be moved by the value shift right it's you cannot just like come and use the same approach that you used uh in in in the different industry because it's just like hurting the whole industry um um so there are

two camps and uh I think there is not too many or maybe not at like founders that are uh and builders that are kind of like in the middle between two of those. Uh no I think there are a few but like in general the uh um you I believe that the the best kind of like way about how to get ahead and I will show that in the next few years by the way I I I'm fully like dedicated to to showing it for everyone is like combining the values of of of crypto but also thinking a lot about the product uh and putting the money like a little bit behind because like if you can build a product that is like have a good retention and distribution um with with good values it means that will it will have adoption.

You'll be able to make money no matter what because it's the whole thing is like connects to payments and everything. But think about that a bit later. Um and and and first like try to solve the problem of a user. That's kind of like my uh thinking approach. >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think you hit the nail on the head there. Um, a lot of people, at least from from what I've I've seen, um, specifically in the crypto and blockchain space is, um, they concentrate a lot on, um, the money uh, money part of it first. And usually the money is always tied to some token launching on >> Yeah.

>> whatever the the community is, the product, right? And it's like >> um, a big problem we see. >> I'll tell you. Yeah. >> I'll tell you a secret. I >> Yeah. in a like around a month from now I I will prove you that money for me do not matter okay we'll suck here so this is kind of like a secret uh there will be vivid like kind of like proof uh I'll show you yeah >> excellent yeah uh bit bit of a tease right on man uh but yeah the the uh the thought was like um once that first like token generation event kind of happens like you see a A lot of people are like, "Oh, okay. That's I'm done with this thing now. I'm moving on to the other

thing." Um, and I I think it's um like you mentioned it, it's it's kind of this lack of um like a product vision kind of like after after that main token launch kind of happens like um do you think maybe it's just cuz um these companies are not they hire too heavy too heavily on the developer side at the start and kind of um bring in the product people too too late or um yeah in my opinion I I think like bringing in a a good product person really early on um would >> I thinkated >> I think the the one of the founders should be like product oriented and one of the founders should be technical

ideally if the founders like know both but uh I think like you cannot just like bring someone and say like okay can you do the product uh it's like the core the design and the product is the same importance of of technology there is not no kind of like replacement Um >> yeah. Yeah. Fair to say. Fair to say. Um and uh I guess uh kind of coming back on that little tease. Um a little birdie did say you might have something big cooking. Um is there any alpha or or anything you might be willing to drop uh around that for folks watching today?

>> Yeah. So um I will kind of like share like a secret here that will be like later announced um which is human project that I've been like focusing on for like three years almost um is not is no longer exist uh existing uh it's kind of like uh there were some issues um on u on the organizational level um but it doesn't mean that this is the end of mission and there is a reason behind why I've been like quiet on Twitter for few months there is a reason why I'm becoming less quiet on Twitter now so I' I have a lot of comments like asking

like what is happening what is happening um just trust the process that's that's that's that's my only thing like everything is measured and everything is kind of like thought out I did not like leave the space I I'm I'm I'm 24 years old so I have all intentions to kind of like not burn any reputation things or anything like that. It's it's my kind of like life mission what I'm talking about here. So, um and uh yeah, just stay tuned. Um there's like really really soon going to be some cool news. >> Amazing. Yeah, looking forward to it, man. Uh yeah, so keep uh keep your eyes peeled, folks. Um, and um, for people who want to stay on top of all the things that you're up to, what's the

best way for them to to do that? Um, >> is it the follow on X or >> Yeah, just follow on X. Uh, I I I just posted an article about privacy uh, that I would recommend everybody reading. Um, it specifically touches this the part where like if you verify everyone like a proof of personhood um, online, what happens with privacy? because like the the some people have like this is the end of like anonymity. Um and I'm arguing that it's really not. Um and I'm I'm showing like examples about how this could be like things uh could could be solved. The the the short answer is all about incentives. It's all about the the system design. So um and and we have thought about it and uh I'm going to publish more more stuff really soon. So

um and uh um also some cool videos are coming. Um, so there's going to be a lot of content. >> Amazing. And yeah, uh, I've read the article. It's really good. Um, and we will link it for you, um, in the description, uh, below. Uh, so definitely you'll want to check that out. And, uh, as we're approaching time here, uh, Krill, is there anything, uh, you want to leave the audience with, um, around u, identity, privacy, or anything else? Yeah, I would just say like be more curious and uh um try more stuff that is coming out. Um just pure curiosity and then when you try that like try to feel like what does it

mean for you as a user? um when you try it and uh what does it mean if you think about like your friends that would like kind of try it like what are the problems that are happening uh between and then like just try to apply that framework to everything you use in the in the industry um and uh I think this is quite important to like global awareness um of of the problems and stuff like that and if you if you have a chance to share that with me I my my DMs are always open um so yeah >> amazing man. And yeah, uh we have uh Krill's ex account listed in the description below. So definitely if you want to chat, reach out. And uh yeah, with that, uh Krill, thank you so much

for taking the time out of your day to come chat with us. Uh really appreciate it. >> Thank you so much. Have a good one. >> Yeah. Yeah. All right. Cheers. Yeah. Have a good one, folks.