Everything You Need To Know About Sui | Evan and Adeniyi, Co-founders at Mysten Labs

Transcript

ZK login is pretty much what we feel is one of the most Advanced Technologies invented in crypto in the last five six years and this is a scheme that allows anybody with an existing web 2 account to engage with the blockchain without a third party now the great thing about that is you're not giving your private data to some third party who custodies it it's effectively the chain that gives every app in this we because it's on that functionality which means for the first time billions of people with an existing web 2 account can use the blockchain what's up everyone welcome back to another episode of zerox research March is just around the corner and I want to make sure to give you a quick reminder to not top tick your prices of your D London tickets if you use codes 0x10 at checkout you can lock

in a 10% discount on your ticket don't miss out on your chance to get ahead of the curve I'll see you in London welcome back to another episode of zerox research we have a great episode lined up today with Evan and adony co-founders at me Labs which is delivering the benefits of web 3 with the ease of web 2 today is Friday February 9th and as a reminder be sure to use code0x research10 at app. blockworks research.com for 10% off your annual subscription now on to the interview with edin and Adan thank you so much both for coming on today of course thanks for having us all right so I'm gonna dive right into it last episode we had Brendan farmer from polygon come on and he basically started by saying that

no single chain can scale to that of the internet and to kick off the conversation can you say whether you agree or disagree with that and why completely disagree uh and and that's that's it's almost like back in the days when you people are using Di modin and say well you know this is this is like how much more you can do right you can push to you know 1024 right it's like wow right uh you have to think differently right so a lot of the problem with the blockchain limitations all the focus of about scalability is what they doing a lot of thing that's W wasteful uh the architecture doesn't allow you to scale uh the way the kind of web to infrastructure can scale uh if

you use cloud infrastructure you never worry about scalability issue so you know they can they can they can increase uh capacity to meet demand uh this is what's needed for for this industry as well and and the fact right our our steny is well we have architecture we know it's going to scale to me what it's necessary we don't need to scale to millions of transaction because it would be wasteful but when the demand continues to increase the way we know it's going to continue to increase will be right there right you build architecture correctly you break out the box of what blockchain look like and if you look inside s look at the diagram look at the the stages how it process transaction then you understand

um no this is uh very very very much a misunderstanding what technology progress look like yeah probably back that out is if you look at the makeup of our team the background is very steep into building large scale distributed systems systems that power billions of users um Google never turns away um business because it doesn't have the capacity to scale the whole business premise is the ability to actually take all your all your data all your workload and actually run it on cloud so we have the exactly the same progress so our background really talks of that and the technology we have ultimately allows that to happen yeah and and the the one thing that's really really important to point out is while everyone else is still building a

blockchain that basically look the same at a very high level architecturally right so M mle consensus execution then writing the results into authenticated data structure right that of course you're going to write you keep on building a faster di mod you're going to rent out your your her um so we we didn't do that we say okay let's forget about that and this is we want to want to build a architecture is completely different what that also means we have to change other parts of the entire system the data model has to be very different so you expose all the information you need to be able to scale so you expose all the information you need so you don't do wasteful work like

doing consensus ordering of transaction they have no storage and everything yeah yeah so it's not about paralyze execution paralyze the entire pipeline including the ordering part so that that's that's how you do things all right yeah no that's a great followup to my next question there are a lot of next gen l1s out there in the wild such as abas say and probably hundreds of others these days what is sway's primary differentiator from all of these newer chains yeah um so first of all we you're going to see us not really paying attention to the scalability debate uh because it's in your opinion that's solved right uh our background is you

know collectively we build a lot of kind of products and developer platforms truly in the past that reach many millions or billions of devices or or humans we think long term we think more insurances top down right what value we're trying to deliver to the world what changes we want to affect uh and then how do you build the kind of platform that enable the product developers to build new kinds of uh products of business and reach many many millions hundreds of millions of customers we think very differently uh so we build very differently so we want to focus a lot more on the hard problems

the consumer developers are facing which is coordination across you know across lots of different you know kind of functions applications and product right so the way you think about things today is everything is very much a custody kind of model or a silo you enter into a service any kind of large scale service you basically in a way so go ahead and cust my information custody my data I trust you or custody my asset such as my photos my video whatever you can share with my my network and all that you can do whatever you want with it right I have little control over so remember the whole premises of

blockchain is not just to turn everything into tokens right it's it's it's a coordination it's a platform for coordination consumer in the middle and they coordinate with the product and service say you can now you can use my my resource my information for this and we can you somebody else can right you cutting across this The Silo so we're solving a lot of these kind of problems so how do you build these kind of product what tools you need to build this kind of product what is a consumer product experience should look like right that's why we're pushing very hard into latency everybody's have their favorite time to uh finality numbers they all kind of block time right like

that's the first stage of the transaction processing we're talking end to end end to end like everything finalized on the blockchain nothing ever changes right no no no guesses right or any thing we're going to get to two to three round trip depending on the the kind transactions so two two three round trip to so you know roughly 200 milliseconds round trip around the world right between London and and New York right so you're talking 400 to 600 millisecond real finality why is that important is that's consumer experience right consumer don't wait for things why do have things like ZK loging well

onboarding problem solving the problem um you know all these things um that's that's what we're about yeah I want to I want to touch in on that that the the folks you mentioned are just simply building the blockchain where we're building a really large scale development platform that empowers people to build products um TI that enables ownership um now in reality if you look at all the things that we've built yes there's a blockchain and yes we' solved the scalability problemu doesn't have a Max TPS you just keep adding more workers andu scales um infinitely um the other benefit is all the things we're building around developer adoption and also enabling developers to build powerful applications Evan touched briefly on ZK login ZK login is pretty

much what we feel is one of the most Advanced Technologies invented in crypto in the last five six years and this is a scheme that allows anybody with an existing web 2 account to engage with the blockchain without a third party now the great thing about that is you're not giving your private data to some third party who custodies it you're not effectively um it's a blockchain that verifies your your login which is super powerful and very very unique to sui which means every app inui has a power of magic link you don't have to integrate magic link you don't have to integrate some um some third party solution that you charge for it's effectively the chain that gives every app in this we it's on that functionality which means for the first time billions of people with an existing Web Two account can use the blockchain

and the other addition is the fact that we have something called sponsored transactions sponsor transactions allows you to transact on the blockchain without paying gas which means now you can't you nor only can able to log in to um um any of the apps inui using an email or any kind of Facebook account or whatever Web Two account you like but you could also transact inui without ever taking gas which means we've given web 3 Builders the ability to build web 2 ux in the most seamless possible way and now you can have wallets that simply would either sponsor your transactions because they have a partnersh with a DEX or some other kind of um um application EOS system start to build these real kind of relationships between

applications are incentives based and I think that's a real power and you're going to see more and more of these ingenious um um capabilities come to we have a feature coming this year that let you effectively transact on site without even an internet connection that's unheard of these are the levels of of of invention that you need to come up with to make crypto go to billions of users being able to send transactions without paying gas been able to use your email or whatever identity you have to transact been able to send money across the world without ever woring about internet connection these are the things that really set sweet apart while everyone's just building a blockchain in our view well I I want to come back to just the blockchain right part even the blockchain is very different uh so s

with a data model can scale storage which is very very different um so obviously you don't want to store your video on chin but you need to create like vibrant complex asset that represent actual real world asset an asset you know contains a lot more than just a link to a jpack so uh to be able to store onchain uh you know scale storage also have the data model allow you to specify any kind of complex types and for objects asset to be composable um that allow you to build very very powerful very different kind application so the one reason why s starting to take

off recently is because of that developer has figured out like wait this is the level composability permissions composability they never experienc elsewhere so defi Builder are the first one to figure that out how to use programmable transaction blocks to really do this kind of you know code composability across a lots of different protocols and you build better product that's and guess what Traders is tell me to make more money and then every everybody's coming right that's why not only our TV is growing our transaction volume is in 100 million now for a couple days in a row we're in the top four top five now and then the same thing are fig people are figuring out

say wait data composability this is what's about right you can think about almost like in gaming models like you have your arrow they have inventory then your sord can you can add more things to your magic sword to be make more powerful that level composability so there's a lot of things very very different perhaps the way we summarize it is well it's like almost like everybody is 2D we're playing a 3D game kind of thing you know these assets are self enforcing in terms of rules about transfer and everything else so we we we'll talk a lot more about this uh in the coming weeks and months uh but but yeah it it's really is not a blockchain that's other can compare right it's very very different in a lot of different

ways yeah that sounds really exciting esally especially that point about uh not needing an internet connection to I'd love to dive into that later a bit more I think one thing that many of our listeners are probably relatively familiar with is sort of ethereum's data storage model or PR for example sana's account based uh storage model but so it has this sort of like objectoriented storage model so would you mind just briefly running us through that and perhaps also talking about the implications right ethereum is really struggling with data availability layers today there's like a whole host of like other data availability layers does this object oriented model fundamentally mean that for example s needs much less data availability compared to like other type

of like storage models what's the tradeoffs here yeah the way you think about is solidity I mean ethereum or any other chance right now is basically one giant Global state where everything mixed together right so you know that's the same model with processing transactions everything right you have Marco tree uh so so you kind of have you know the the storage overhead as the tree goes bigger and bigger it becomes very significant so then you have to when you reading you also have to tease the part which part of your data you car it's about uh we we have a completely different model where it's not you know a comp base right everybody every you know it's a global sort of Object Store put it that way and it's really each one

of them represent an asset or a smart contract is a asset and how the inter with each other right that's the mental model you have to shift around it's asset based rules are also encoded in the asset rather than being inforced by by human so so all that uh makes the problem completely different when you think about skill you know kind of availability data availabilities and how do you read so one of the things we are going we work you know it's possible with three is uh you know this this the ability for you to only focus focus on the States you care about if you're building application you have a game you have consumer product you know exactly which are the objects that that you care

about you don't care about all the other states so the the Reading part of The Suite can become very different uh you can think about a a like client being construct very differently there is a lot active work happening uh in the area right now on the consensus side of things s has two consensus protocols one for more simple transactions and one for uh transactions that touch the same object can you kind of walk into these two and how they work yeah so so uh to be clear you don't need consensus for owned object think about it it's you know the the easiest way to think about is in in

the real world if I this is my cup and my cup only nobody else can touch it if I want to do something with this I don't need consensus I don't need ordering uh I don't need to worry about somebody else trying to grab the same resource grab my cup it's mine no one can touch it so I transfer to Ed right now it just happens so the process more of a broadcast making sure everybody knows this is happening everybody is okay everybody validate this is a valid transaction and you don't go through the consensus right that's the fast pass uh so so that that's what what works right so uh the pipeline I'm not going to go

into the detail describing it without without whiteboard it's too hard to describe without whiteboard but but it's basically a broadcast and Then followed by if you go if you share object like your your smart contract for minting F everybody can send transaction to that same object touching the same object there's contention then now you actually do need to order them in that case you go through consensus right so it's sort of like this two- stage thing and if you're a fast pass if your own object you just go through the fast pass you don't need to go through cons it's it's important to denote the difference right like Inu there is real asset ownership right what Avers described the fact that he can hold a cup and it's in his hand

is because his keys own that actual asset nobody else does in ethereum the difference is it's a contract that owns the asset and you have to engage with the contract to command and control that asset and you can have you could essentially have the contract take the asset and your screw s very very different the security model allows for actual you know users to own the assets that they that they've they've purchased and Define rules around how those assets are transferred it it also allows us to we have these great mechanisms that enforce royalties as well you know web 3 was promised as this great technology for creators where you can create a piece of artwork and then you can monetize royalties over time because you you know it's it's a new model for

freeing um creators to actually you know monetize um the great work that they do only to have web three rug them and have it be by human consensus as to who pays royalties versus notu doesn't do thatu allows a a Creator to freely Define what kind of royalties they want to whether they want to make it harshly enforce enforcable or not at all so you know if I we have a a standard called sweet kiosk which it effectively allows um designers to build an asset store it within a kiosk and this kiosk will specify what conditions need to be met before the asset can be transferred outside of a kiosk into another so it means now I could specify that this asset will not transfer on Mondays or this asset will not transfer if the

price is above x amount of dollars or this asset would only transfer when a royalty of 20% is paid on a on a on a Net Present Value so you start to have these really complex rules you can build around real world assets and ownership of assets that gives developers a lot more freedom I think you're only going to start to see more and more of these rich interactions on site just because it's not possible to do that on a chain that doesn't enforce ownership as as a key primitive uh yeah I'll touch on the consensus on a couple things right so early on when we talk about scalability why we believe that we have an architecture to skill uh the blockchains like horizontally right think about it you have two smart

contract each one serve for different function one is meting nft the other one is a de there's going to be natur a cluster of transactions that Target that one the AF smart contract another one you know Target the the defi you know uh smart contract these two groups of transactions artistic they have no relationship to each other right so now you have a mental model how you can Pro process including the consensus part these two groups in parallel simultaneously so so that that's that's why right this is why you need to change how you represent data in the first

place to be able to scale in a way that go beyond what conventional smart uh smart contract platform or blockchains can do so so very very different uh way thinking about it another thing I was just touch on right I saw some people saying well you know why do you need to uh add this fast pass right so most of the transactions are going to be shared object uh you know you you you paying the price oh well that's completely wrong we are seeing very very smart Builders are figuring out how to leverage that fast pass that really really fast uh kind of for really really fast you know commitment um you know confirmation of

of trading right blue fin is able to do 28 millisecond I think something around that 28 millisecond confirmation optimistic confirmation but this is the kind of thing allow them to build a very very different kind of product and that's why they blew up right that's why they gave up aratron that's why they say well okay guess what s is better because even though it's a smaller Community right now it's 20 times more Capital efficient for them it's a better product experience so again people too often people are thinking thinking of everything wrong blockchain in the lens of what has been done before

and which want to challenge the audience to to think differenty I would probably argue that a lot of the I guess constraints to blockchain scaling ultimately is hindered by the fact that uh decentralization is something that people value very highly and you kind of have that classic blockchain trma how do you guys think about decentralization and what does that look like inui uh uh I think the blockchain trma is a completely different conversation and probably needs at least a healthy 30 45 minutes if not an hour debate because it's remember that tremi is is created is defining the lens of what a blockchain look like back in the day

when etherum started uh we we're going to challenge that's actually wrong so uh decentralization let's talk about it right the how do you define it right conv people mostly Define as number Aid dator which is completely wrong because it's really about they all run on some kind of Hardware a lot of them if you look at etherum what percentage that actually runs on AWS uh Google cloud and the few big big cloud services so you still actually have like look at how you know they actually quite concentrated as a result so we think about um you know so there's a better better sort of things we can look at Nakamoto ratio is is one's

better right essentially you you at least address the one part of the the the the the equation why do you need care about de centralization is it's basically making sure you're not being taken down by by you know Bad actors right so then you talk about how many notes you you have to go down before you your network lose liess that sort of thing right that's a little bit better but even that it's probably incomplete uh it's a very very difficult right it's there's a trade-off for sure uh in all case the the tradeoff is probably more latency then you have to figuring out what is the right balance uh what is when are you sufficiently decentralized right remember it's about trust right

you don't want to trust a single company behind this you want to trust all these different entities up sort of like keeping each other each other on it right so there's a certain number then it becomes like imprac ice you're decentralizing enough then you add other ways for individuals or business other to verify the network is doing the right thing there's no collusion and no other other funny business going on then you have a sufficiently decentralized system and you can keep on growing it uh you find ways to continue to basically you know sort of like ensuring the the your your platform don't uh suffer the the

risk of attack or over concentrated you on certain kind of a cloud service those things will take time uh so that's the way we think about decentralization and it's it's something that we happy to have a debate about uh but a lot of these kind of different U topics are sort of lumped together and and that's really really not not the right way to think about it uh it's the trilemma there is a trilemma but it's you know we also disagree with with a way that's defin yeah I definitely agree with you I think in general I'm in the camp of sufficiently decentralized like not everything needs like a 100,000 nodes

across the world in every single country well and and to be frank right it's it's about voting power two3 voting power move forward right so you have a lot of redundancy you have thousands of no but most than they have 0.1% of the the voting power actually don't matter right they're they are there that's that's good they have it's its replication fail safe uh but a lot of these it's a bit of a decentralization theater uh you know so you know those things actually don't don't matter much yeah I would agree there on the not of like sort of scate ability right um I think the object model makes it so that it's easier to Shard execution it's

easier to skill storage because you can sh objects by owners and IDs and it's easier to verify the state because you don't need to have a whole view of global state but I know like your guys's definition of Shing is slightly different from perhaps like how diff how how most people in blockchain think of charting for example with near would you mind walking through like what charting looks like most are like near they're talking about stage Shing right so you have uh you know so you you may want to spread them out different distinct shards right then you if you will have uh if you want to compose across to two assets or different shots you kind of have to do some synchronization ahead of time right that's very very hard and I

actually don't know where this where they are right now it's been talked about for a long time there's a reason why State sharting really hasn't taken off taken off or is even being implemented because one it's very hard to get right and and if it's not syn synchronous you have other kinds of problem um the and it's just think about the you know or if you want to do explicitly right do you want want the developer to be aware they are or or not aware uh so so there's a lot of complexity and and think about how hard it is right to write smart contract as it is right you add another dimension you know it's like any developer knows right writing a sequential algorithm is one thing

writing a parallel algorithm is something completely different different level complexity um in three when we talk about Shing it's invisible to the developer for them it's a one giant space where with all these objects one Global you know name space what you want to call it right you all these objects you can they interact with each other you can compose it freely the sharting is implementation detail behind the scene think about each validator itself can become a distributed Network that's a way to think about it Inns of mental model you can distribute your work per validator to multiple machines they may say okay

this machine is responsible for certain thing different function or you can think about they uh they they are you know focus on different H objects and all that right there's a different ways you can do that uh we'll publish more more more on that yeah to touch on that think about the benefits of what we just described namely for a developer it's a better developer experience you you're not you're not thrown it's not thrown in your face the fact that you need to figure out which particular Shard is this particular asset that you're trying to engage with so if you're working on subnets for example you have that intrinsic problem you also start to have issues right where if you're using these things that expose developers to to programmatically the shards themselves you now have fragmented liquidity or do

you even have the ability to bridge assets across across if you wanted to it doesn't create a really good developer experience and actually creates a worse developer experience if anything you know it starts to it's our our thesis is ultimately because these chains don't know how to scale they ultimately just build replicas of the same blockchain and start to create a new world in that new blockchain and you have this inter problem of having to move assets between chains and it's it's a it's a mess and we we don't think it's a way to go we think the inov validated Shoring described here where the infrastructure takes care of the scale the infrastructure takes care of where um workloads need to go and the developer completely not having to think about it that's the way in which infrastructure should ultimately work yeah I mean if

you look at the you know there's how many l2s for ethereum they usually are replications of the ecosystem right different swaps and different der derivative platforms and all that right you don't actually can you can't really compose across l2s right it's a very very similar kind of kind of mental model when you think about sharding even for L1 right if it's explicit it has to be managed by the developer or you know automatic right this is different kind of provins you're dealing with what's up everyone March is approaching fast and I want to give you another reminder not to miss out on D London it is coming it's right around the corner and it's in March from the

18th to the 20th we have three full days of content this is your chance to bump shoulders with some of the world's top Executives and have open dialogue with both attendees and speakers we're going to be focusing on a range of topics that I'll let Ren discuss for you first on the list we have Bitcoin Catalyst the Haring and spot ETF next we have a view from the buy side from invest on things like strategy portfolio allocation and more we also have a topic on Ras tokenization and stable coins which I think we can all agree are going to pay a large vot in crypto future we'll also talk about global regulatory Frameworks like compliance best practices and the evolution of global standards that are shaping the global investment landscape we'll also have someone from the institutional front to talk about infrastructure such as Banking and

payments with financial giants like visa and JP Morgan and last on the list the macro case for digital assets so don't miss out on this Monument mental event seats are limited so be sure to register today by hitting the link in the description and using the promo code 0x10 to save 10% on tickets see you in London I have a quick slightly nerdy question um I was thinking of like Atomic bundles as they are on like either itm or salana and I was thinking hey like what what does it look like on S if someone submitted like an atomic bundle that included like a normal like simple fast PA transaction and maybe like they shareed and a transaction that interacts with a shared object or even like just is there m on say today what

does that look like so C has this um mechanism called programmable transaction blocks programmable transaction blocks doesn't let you deal with just instructions as some people try and do it lets you actually um essentially write um a transaction that can effectively um bundle over 1,24 heterogeneous transactions in an atomic way together so we actually have that today onu if you look at what's happening with flashboards and things like that these are all ptbs so you can in one transaction do a transaction on buy buy um a token on the Dex within that same transaction take the token you've purchased put into a lending protocol borrow do a you know a flash

loan directly against that asset and then do some kind of um you know some optimization trade on dbook which is a central limit order book on on chain and do that all in one single transaction and the user only has to click one button without without having to wait and it's all or nothing if any of those transactions fail or the conditions not met it doesn't if if all you've done is pay gas it's actually very very cheap so it's another way where you know any kind of parallel system needs to have a mechanism for batching right so you can effectively even batch transactions in one go and save a lot on the gas so24 correct so From sw's perspective it's the most advanced scheme that any chain actually has it's not just commands you're talking about I can call

individual smart contracts I could take the input out of one roll into the other and do that all the way through up to 1024 transactions it's really just the limit we've imposed for now there's no reason why it can't be higher but you know that is a scheme that we see it's allowing defi onu to take off significantly you you have this what we call this real composability that you actually get onu now it's permissionless composability you don't need to write a new smart contract you can basically construct this program transaction block you don't need the protocol to give you a hook to participate this they don't even need to know right you can just compose your you know these into one and you can do flash loans and all that we saw that the other day we were like wait somebody who is unknown just did what

400 million worth of transactions using these Bots basically using these flash Longs and and and borrow and then do some trade and then pay back like that right um yeah it's it's really powerful gotcha followup question then when I think of sort of like the object oriented model right um I know it's slightly different but salana has se some seen some headaches with developers that lock accounts because when you write a transaction on salana you need to specify which account you want to lock does sway have problems like that and how is sway thinking about its fee markets today and are there any like problems that you guys are running

into so I don't know know the precise answer to your question I don't know that level details perhaps that's something we can come back with u but what we have is testimony from veteran salana developer saying no this is not like salana you don't have to specify all these things up front the the borderer play code is so much smaller the developer experience is depending on who you ask some say it's say three or four times better some say it's 10 times better than some know um so but we I don't know the details what you're talking about in terms of locking account so I can't answer you um the the fee Market yes we support local fee market and that's only way right so

remember very very important one the design principle we have is predictability predictability cones in two forms one is if I'm developer I want to use your infrastructure I know you're not going to run out capacity on me the other one is that you're not going to surprise me by jacking up the price of the Fe on my fee because somebody else is doing something really really stupid uh so that we have this auction process we have this uh kind of basically stabilization mechanism even if the token price shoot up or goes down right it's just going to be staying stable relative to the FI relative for the EPO right the 24 hours they G to you're

going to know exactly how much you're paying basically more or less like with in a very very small range so uh yeah so so it's it's uh the fee Market wise you you should think about is globally stable locally if you something really really really hot well yes you can have a fee Market say well this is in contention right millions of people are touching on this auction you probably want to check out the price uh so there's mechanism both local and Fe and and and and Global on on the account locking question um it's not an issue in s um PR primarily because s's lowest unit of compute is an object strongly typed object um in s all you deal with is an object you specify the object

you're dealing with and then you put that into a contract or you engage with it directly you don't have to worry about abstract Concepts that are alien to developers like accounts or things like that you simply dealing with strongly typed objects that is a user experience that most developers actually can actually grow very very quickly and which is why people are finding you know to write an application in salana is like eating glass or chewing glass as they say but wrri something in is very very akin to what they used to in any other strongly typed program language so yeah that that model doesn't exist that problem doesn't exist in S I guess following up there uh I think we've heard like pretty good experiences from just like the developers we've talked with some developers launched like similar protocols from from salana

onto stre and they say that the devx is like a 10x Improvement so to followup could you mind would you mind going a bit deeper into why specifically is the devx so Superior on S is it move is it the object oriented data model or something else it it's it's everything right so so we it's a opinionated developer experience uh we take a lot of the things are taken care of you right starting from move right basically intern security defin a way a lot of class of problems that's common in smart contract language right that saves a ton of headache for Developers first off the bat then the object model really allow

you to do things compose things much more freely much more easily uh and that's that's what it's about right so with s move we we did a lot more of of also runtime enforcement uh everything around ownership object right so remember this is a coordination smart contract coordinating who gets to use the assets who's touching it only one it's like all the things you have to do is like making sure you you verify ownership uh right so so you know if you forgot ownership check you you you you're going to end up with reeny attack that sort of thing is taken care of at the run time as well you know at the language level as was

rent right so so the ownership model owned or or you know or not or shared object right the things rules around that is all taken care of the rent so that these all come together object model Mak makes huge difference just in terms of you thinking about programming in the modern programming everybody understand what objects oriented programming model look like whether that's we believe it's a great fit for everything for smart contract because it's manipulating assets right so that model makes it really really easy and you'll have strongly static type you have then you can build better tools uh one thing people may not be aware of is it's when

you talk about Dynamic type versus static type right it's it's it's it's a trade-off between uh speed ease of getting on Bard versus well getting a right right for smart contract because ultimate everything's you you spend all your energy on making sure it's right so this is the right model and this is actually trading off this is not even a trade-off to consider this is better for efficiency for getting things right so and that allow you to build much better tooling because when you have static type information your tools are going to be better can do analysis for you and also the model uh of code and right so in in solity you're probably familiar a smart contract carries

States so the code is actually not reusable right as as opposed to move there's a separation so your code is a bundle you can reuse so reusability also help with modularity also help with develop experience all these things that add up so I'm hearing like 10x Dev experience infinite scalability like all of these things that everyone wants to accomplish in blockchains but candidly setting bias aside what would you say isu's biggest pain point today and how do you guys plan on addressing it well I think getting a words out making sure people understand our design or thinking why we do things a certain

way for people to even be aware the blockchains are very different right you don't take your traditional blockchain and move on top and say all of a sudden he like yes problem solved uh that's incremental Improvement it's a big Improvement but it's not how we design sweet so that's the biggest pain point is to making sure people understand that's you know why we design s this way and why you need to consu and without them actually you know because just so noisy out there right it's just so noisy in the space it's hard to get the the words out people just think about oh paralyzation as if it's all the same thing um you know and and why is this important well it's another thing that's

a real big pain point is like I think this Collective for the whole industry I think we can be honest with ourself like people outside industry a lot that have very negative views about the industry think about bunch of silly stuff or even was you know Bad actors uh and we need to change that uh so we're seeing good progress there but it's not we're not there yet we're not at the point where every big company say okay it's time to use a blockchain to solve our you know customer royalty problem or customer engagement problem even our privacy problem or or or you know all these other problem that's that's perly suit to be solved by by a public budget and people not not really understanding it

sometime they they're like sensitive because all the bad press around it uh so these are the pain point I wanted to spend some time on the consumer side of things adony you mentioned sort of like offline payments and perhaps in like Web Two payment systems like which I pay you have offline payments uh empa in Africa you're able to pay over like sales service how does offline payments on Street work would you mind walking to it do that um there's not much I can share yet we're holding some of that back but I can tell you that our while we're at Facebook our goal was essentially to enable everybody in the world with a phone with a cell phone anybody in the world with any kind of device that has

any form of radio to communicate with one one another so you're going to see us launch this year a scheme that allows any phone in the world any device that has whether it's Bluetooth whether it's vsat doesn't matter to actually transact on the sweet blockchain and you could do that without a full-blown internet connection as well whether you know and then these are the things and by the time you marry things like um you know deepend on top of that it's going to be a game changer we think this is where web 3 really needs to go in taking the technology to where people are everything we've done if you think about ZK login where users are right now is their web two accounts we bring the technology to them now where users are with very basic phones where whether it's whether it's some device that has a

very bad connection it doesn't matter wherever you are in the world we want to ensure that anybody in the world can can gain access to this um Ledger that we've built so you're going to hear some news around that um with some Partners hopefully something this year but our goal is really um to really change the narrative on web 3 be being just purely speculative but a fundamental piece of infrastructure that people use day in day out yeah one thing I'll point out just a sort of almost like a prerequisite for um offline payments to be possible is you need to break this uh interaction model in in crypto payment is like well you need to download wallet on the recipient side you need to tell me your public key yes there are some

apps that can abstract a way but you're not at doing at a fundamentally at the protocol level uh you be Holden to a third party so util lateral payment is the key right this is something back at Novi back at Facebook we couldn't do right we knew that that was a limitation of the technology think about like I just want to know Ren okay give me a phone number I know your phone number I know your email account I want to send a payment to you I don't care if you have a three address or not a wallet or or even three tokens to pay for gas I can just send the payments to you that's unilateral payment and that is what ZK loging and ZK sent has already proven to be possible and that's a prerequisite to

be able to do this kind of offline payment for the masses you mentioned the sweet token there and I find it interesting that you know a lot of projects in crypto are trying to you know provide more utility to their token and it seems like in your guys this case you're almost trying to remove some of the utility by like gasless transaction seamless user experience which I strongly believe is this like the right way to go but I'm just kind of curious how do you see in the grand scheme of things s playing a role in the S ecosystem I mean the gas is always there right gas list means somebody else paying for you right a product pay for you this is not a new model somebody's paying the infrastructure cost it's just not the consumer it's solving the onboarding problem so uh will forever

have lots and lots of this value yes we're not like ethereum like almost arguing the expensive uh overhead or cost is good for the token or some OD weird reason like that's like this is how big the piece of pie you have right and you try to capture as much as a pip we believe in growing the PIP so growing the PIP means yes the gas prices needs to be low the friction has be removed all these sort of thing but ultimately we want what we want to reach is what you can imagine every product every every interaction on the internet may involve a blockchain and transaction on the blockchain and that's the that's where we're going and that we're talking about millions of interaction per second this is even old numbers from 20121

somewhere around 5 million per second so that's where we going so don't think near turn think longterm uh to get to that kind of skill you have to remove all these frictions all the things that that's holding it back so if you think think of think ofu there are limited number of tokens but infinite amount of TPS right of transaction you can do so the goal is to get as much transactions onu as possible that's the goal you don't wantu to be a commodity s needs to be a utility that's something people use on a daily daily basis whether they recognize they using or not that's the ultimate goal and our goals to drive as much um transaction alter Network by the applications who are finding value in

using it as possible andu has that capacity but more importantly I thinku enables people to actually build things that they could not build in web three or web two so we think marry all those schemes together it just makes it for a great opportunity for developers to come in and build some amazing applications I guess as a followup question to that then um NL see the token has a finance supply of 10 billion and that's a very different Dynamic from perhaps other proof of stake networks such as ethereum salana which both have flexible monetary policy if that's the right word would you mind just sort of going through why that design decision and how you guys are thinking about long-term monetary policy or why like a

finite Supply and perhaps how like the storage fund and onchain data requirements plays into those Dynamics I wish we had Alonzo on a call Alonzo is our chief Economist um he designed the entire SC I don't know if you want to jump in I'm happy to yeah I mean it's it's actually a little bit different aary uh this is the part people don't understand right because when you have the storage fund and then later on you get it back but there's a part forever there right so the more you store on chain there actually fewer tokens are actually available in circulation and so over time that's actually a deflationary you know now your traditional sense right you burning tokens but they are essentially locked away in the storage fund um so I think we believe this is a right design

because ultimately you want to get to the point where you you're not almost like a you know like you don't create this artificial incentive for the network participant to just have free money put it that way uh because if you print more you have then then you just basically can just have infinite Subs subsidies right which is probably easier way to go but it's probably not the right thing because you really do right the principle of it is to have the finite number of tokens and and you encourage utility and making sure there's enough activities on chain the utility can can sustain uh the you know sort of the upkeep uh the cost for the

the incurred by by the network participants so that's the general principle it um but the Deary part perhaps is too subtle and we have really haven't talked about it much but that's that's very key as well yeah another thing to consider withu it it actually validators are actively um voting every Epoch to set the gas price and the reason for that is it creates an element of competition but also it actually encourages gas fees to always stay low and if if anything flat with respects to the dollar and that's actually true if you look at sw's gas prices over over time it's actually been flat even in the periods of very high usage when there's inscriptions and other networks and it took people down

sweet it was almost boring nothing happened because the G gas never changed transactions went through the roof but nobody is because it could handle the the load um the reason why we designed it that way is validators every single day have to effectively quote what gas price they're willing to charge and they quote that as close to their cost as possible if they quote too high they earn less fees because others lower will earn a majority of the share if a quote too low they end up Char they basically end up losing money because they're quoting less than the actual cost so we've seen the scheme work really really well over the last eight uh over the last nine months since main there where validators are actively quoting price on a daily basis and the price has actually been relatively stable so it's a it's a

it's a sustainable economic model that we've designed there's a 26 page paper on the sueto economics that talks about these designs including the storage fund that spells this whole thing out as well yeah I mean I think there's two principle you have to remember when you think about Street design is one is with designing with the developers in might first and foremost what they need how they build a sustainable business um you know and then second is the free market Dynamic right we want the market to basically decide for itself through competition a fair open competition uh not you know subsidy can only take you so far uh eventually the market Dynamic dictates everything yeah that makes a lot of

sense and I can admire the fact you're taking a little bit of a different approach than you know copy and pasting what's already been done in the industry so kudos to you guys on that but you mentioned earlier that uh there's a lot of different d ideas that you can think of that really are only possible on site can you kind of dive into maybe one or two of those that each of you guys are excited about and maybe whether or not projects are actively building that idea so what's already started to happen you probably see it soon is every app in this EOS system will allow you to log in using web 2 right every app it's not you have to have a wallet it means blue blue fan in the next week is launching this as well where you can log into the app

with your web2 account and instantly this is a by the way this is a self custodio login it's not a cost you know uh you know one where they take ownership your keys and they have your password it is a self custodial model where you log in with your Google account you'd have you know the ability to trade with $50 for free and start engaging think about what that does for onboarding for web 3 applications we think now apps andu can get a lot more adoption than apps and other ecosystems because they've opened up the door to onboard the next billion users using traditional incentive schemes so that's what we're very very excited about and on top of that you have apps start to give you the ability to transact without ever worrying about addresses so if I want to send money from what I'm trading

on Blue Fin to what I'm doing on na'vi as Lenin protocol you could just use human readable names to do that without to worry about actual on addresses we think the experiences you can build onui will be very different to experiences that you can build on other chains and in web two in web two assets are locked in your Silo now you have freedom of movement of assets users for the first time will have the idea that I have this asset in this ecosystem or in this particular application and I can move it freely between other applications we think that's very very unique um to S yeah another thing I want to touch on is the different right so the category kind of uh applications I want to take a step back and think about what blockchain was meant to do in the first place is

replacing human this intermediation so in a way I can say s is the first one that can dis intimidate human uh what does that mean the problem with say the current model ESC 721 trading afts familiar example you have familiar story you heard everybody stopped dropping enforcement of royalties because the royalty enforcement was done by who human not Cod not software not prever verified software it's fundamentally broken model and that I won't don't have time to go into all the details but but this this interface model defining a a standard that everybody have to come together agree upon doesn't work so you

are fundamentally failing as this intermediation so the other thing we have seen right now is that okay I need a private chain I need a app chain I need a subnet because I want to control everything who are the participant I want to control how the assets have been used and all that also the one we think about is right think about permission assets on top of permissions blockchain what does a permission assets mean it's all these rules you want to enforce if I want to require kyc ml that's permission if I just want to enforce royalty payment that's permission in some way if I want to say you I can only trade this to you be when you know the trade can only complete if you agree to tweet about this uh experience on CH you can

do this so that's the mental model this is what you can build with site because you actually have this asset Centric view these assets are not just token that represent ownership of asset actually live offchain this is fully onchain asset it's automic asset that enforce rules itself and that completely changed the game because now human representation and they can own assets and they can decide who has access to the asset the coordination between human consumers and the products can be done at Large Scale because you can also do permitless permissionless compon

possibility as both at COD at asset level like this really opens up the world so again very very different mental model but that's what we striving for yeah imagine being a to say you could only trade in this pool if you have a JP Morgan account or you have an account with this particular kind of um firm or whatever you can verify the smart contract on chain will verify that in fact the network itself can verify that engagement and allow the transactions to go through it's a new form of model that I just don't think others are thinking about that it's it's enabling that is super interesting and I know we've come up on time so thank you guys so much for taking an hour out of your busy schedules to come on do you guys want to share any closing thoughts or where they can learn more about s or you

know your individual Twitter handles whatever you want to close with uh with the listeners yeah you could go to sweet.io that's the best place we actually have a new um learning s or infro to S um course you could take it's actually very very easy you get to learn more about the paradigms that make S unique and also move as as well we've got a page that's dedicated to move that allows you to learn a lot about why the language is so easy to use and give you some really great examples you can build with um I'm on Twitter it'san abio um and Evan I know if there anything you want to add I'm EV webstream on Twitter easy to remember awesome well thank you guys so much we will be sure to uh bring you

guys back on and you know six months get a check up from you guys if you're free so uh until next time take e take it easy thanks very much folks hey everyone thanks for watching today's zerox research episode I wanted to take a second and remind you about the upcoming 2024 digital asset Summit in London this March seats are limited so hit the link in the description and use the promo code 0x10 to save 10% on tickets see you in [Music] London