ETHMilan26 - Institutional Panel Bridging TradFi and DeFi How Institutions Are Entering On Chain

Transcript

Hi. Um so uh welcome to this panel. We're gonna um talk about how institutionals are moving in this bridging um let's say journey between thread fi and fi. Let me first introduce to you our speakers and please guys give a quick introduction about you just couple of minutes what you doing who you are. Yeah. So, Joseph managing partner of Access Group. We're basically a legal, regulatory and corporate advisory firm on emerging technologies predominantly work from with anything from like D5 protocols, centralized exchanges, crypto asset service providers, token issuers, whatever it may be. We work with the likes of Sky, Rain, Ether, etc. Um, and basically like our the main thing that

we do at the moment is help companies within crypto the intersection of crypto and payments enter the European market. Hello everyone. My name is Kian and I've been in crypto I think just over 10 years. I started my career in Deote doing FS capital markets consulting on crypto. I was then in consensus around five and a half years mainly working on MetaMask institutional and Fura staking and a couple of other products. Um after that I was in a small startup for a while doing portfolio and risk management for crypto funds and now currently I'm head of institutional relations and I lead light of institutional. So effectively my mandate is to help grow institutional adoption of steith. So by that I mean different crypto funds, asset managers, ETP, ETF issuers and DATs.

My name is Andre. I for I work for Leedure that's the wallets the world's leading wallet technology provider. I head up the institutional business in Europe and before that I was working for Switzerland's second largest bank where I built the digital asset custody platform. Hi everyone, my name is Kiara Elri Kabi. I am director head of Italy and canonic chino at 21 shares at sur based issuers of ETBs on crypto. I focus on the business development for 21 shares which is the largest platform of uh exchange traded products on crypto. Um our platform offers more than 60 products

listed on the major European stock exchange now also B italana as well as uh many other uh international markets like NASDAQ, Dubai and Australia and therefore our aim is uh to make the access to digital asset simple and secure through um traditional bank accounts or brokerage platform. form. I usually work very closely with institutional clients to support the uh integration of Bitcoin inside their traditional um investment portfolio increasing risk adjust return and diversification.

And last but not least, many of our clients have also expanded into alcoin diversified strategy increasing returns while managing um overall volatility portfolio volatility. Thank you guys. So first of all I would love to um say thank you for how they have managed this amazing institutional panel because we have custody we have compliance we have product with 80 uh piece from 21 shares and um we have of course the metronian mother base which is taking given by a leader uh I will start asking a question directly to you Joseph so we have a very

interesting period right Now for a compliance point of view, we had the Congress talking about the clarity act last week which was pretty positive at the hand and uh so here in Europe with our Mika which deadline is on the 1 of July this year and I know that your company is dealing more than 50% of the Mika passing through Malta. Do you believe is Europe going in the right direction or do we risk to falling behind everybody else? >> So I would say overall we are definitely on a decent trajectory I would say on a balance of probability.

Um the the the main issues in in Europe at the moment are more so we went very heavy on regulated regulating the centralized crypto providers in the industry but we have no clarity whatsoever no pun intended because of the clarity act of course. um on D5 protocols, onchain implementations, hybrid implementations, whatever it may be. So I think when it comes to token issuers in particular, we did a very very good job. I think better than the US permutation at this point in time and we have a very very good disclosure based regime when it comes to token issuers, ICOs, whatever it may be token related. However, when it comes to how DeFi can integrate with the regulatory regime, I still I still think we're lacking behind heavily, especially in relation to the US who already have very

good technical oriented carveouts in particular for DeFi. Whereas we just have a recital that is so ambiguous and so subject to interpretation which is fully decentralized without any intermediary in place which if I ask I think everyone in this room what that means will have different interpretations across the board. So overall good direction but I think if we don't continue especially at the level getting more guidance on certain interpretive provisions that are being interpreted in many many different ways we will definitely risk lacking behind in my opinion.

>> Yeah sure even because um anyways US are trying to make it easier for us to using it. Do you believe Europe is doing the same things or just regulate it and make it let's say this compliance theater even more difficult for businesses to understand everybody? Yeah. Yes. >> Yeah. I think it's definitely difficult. So we're currently landing about 20 plus authorizations in Europe and again we work with like rain etheri startups whatever it may be. I think it's definitely difficult and whenever we tell clients kind of the compliance requirements under Mika some of them always have a panic attack to be very honest with you. It's also not very startup friendly because the costs that you will incur to get your authorization and like the bare minimum. So your

compliance officer and Melo and certain key functions you need about 200k initially to get up and running and that excludes all the technical aspects that you need then you know to get if you're running a centralized exchange to get order book technology and and all that stuff. I think the main risk in the EU is that it is always a bit compliance theater. Let's face it. I mean, we have a lot of politicians and incentives dictate outcomes. They're at the EU so they need to regulate. Um, but I think we need to be a bit more startup friendly especially for on the crypto side which is a very startup oriented industry I think.

>> Yeah, sure. Even because we have no for so far nothing to um dealing with stable coins in AO. Do you want to add to anything guys or just keep going? >> No, maybe what general point from a staking perspective I actually think Europe is quite good like staking has been around in European ETPs for a number of years whereas from an American perspective I think ETHB only went live what four or five months ago. So I would probably give some credit to the regulators in that point. >> Definitely. Andre what do you think it's the biggest roadblock for this implementation? So we talk about compliance. So which are the rules actually and the regulators? How banks can actually do it from a commercial

point of view? >> I think the biggest roadblock is that banks don't know where to start and if they start they usually are just overwhelmed by all the complexity. Um I think there's been a big swift in the past 12 months from should we do digital assets to how can we do it. So right now when I talk to a bank any bank in Europe the question is always how and the question is what do we start with I think a good signal is kales not like they've already done a lot but at least they brought in a lot of movement so all the banks have reached a point where they know they have to get started and they are getting started so I personally think the roadblocks have been the

biggest ones eliminated and now it's just about execution and as Europeans we're usually not the fastest one We don't like to take too much risks. Um so it's going to take 12 to 24 months but all the banks are coming. Yeah. >> Do you believe there is actually all the fundamentals for this real implementation or they're just running because you know there is this hype around cryptos and so they want to integrate the asset as well. >> It heavily depends on the region we're talking about. So, I'm Swiss native and like crypto has been implemented in Swiss banks since 2017. We've had clarity around staking and ICOs for almost 10 years now. Um, but then if you

go up to the Nordics, they're still the banks are still very skeptic of cryptic crypto. So, they go more towards stable coins. So, I would say it heavily depends on on where you actually go, but everybody's doing something or everything. >> Yeah. And u sorry um but do we actually want this merge between the two things like between the two words? Is there something really positive or we just pretend that it is? Personally I'm a big supporter of it. So first of all, I think self- custody is very important and the possibility of interacting directly with DeFi without

any third party um that's very important from a freedom perspective. But I also think for an adoption or to have mass adoption, we need this convergence. And I'll give you an easy example why I think it's important that it happens. Crypto brings transparency. It brings composability um and it brings a technological standard for digital value. But what it lacks is it lacks stability. It lacks risk management and it lacks compliance and I think that's what traditional finance brings in and that why I think um we combine the best of both worlds and then it's going to be an exciting future.

>> Yeah, definitely. Do you want to add anything Joseph? I saw you before. >> Oh, no. To be fair, I'm like in agreement. I think also like a lot of banks at the moment know the why of why they want to get into crypto. Like obviously it's increasing in adoption and they also have a lot of client demand. Some of them obviously don't know the how. So we have this like thing called project get on chain where we basically speak to banks and try to build them on crypto on the offerings they can provide cuz actually Miko also caters for the fact that banks can get a fast track to basically offering crypto asset services. But most of them even when they tell us like we want to offer cards and I'm like okay but how are you going to structure it? They have no

idea. They know why they want to get into it. But then when it comes to the technical nuances on the back end, a lot of them need a lot of help as well. >> I know. And the the market is still super young because we are barely 20 years in. So even the expertise like people knowing what they're doing with 20 probably background 20 years in background in banking are very few of them. So it's it's difficult. K you are the director of Italy. So you are on the stage the only Italian voice that can a bit geocalizing our uh discourse on the Italian market. What do you uh think about the Italian banking system with cryptos?

>> Very nice very interesting question. Um yes I can speak from an institutional investor point of view and I would like to say that at the moment many institutional investors such as pension funds, mutual funds or insurance companies still have a limited participation uh in the crypto market because this kind of institutional investors have usually have a conservative strategy and usually have a longterm horizons and they've limited the participation in the market is one of the key reason because um the price of Bitcoin because Bitcoin

is still volatile. the uh market demand in fact is still driven by you know retail investor or speculative u speculative traders which usually use um um some strategies that uh affect uh the price swing. Anyway, uh the situation is going to change because uh um because uh we can see that uh thanks to the introduction of some uh in of some uh instruments, regulated instruments like DTPS on crypto uh the institutional investor are becoming more familiar with this kind of market and also the

institutional capital is uh going to enter uh the industrial uh the industrial space and we can also analyze in my opinion uh the crypto market at the moment based on two key factor uh the expertise the knowledge on crypto and the assets. The assets are distributed across the market um mean according to uh the investor sophistications following a curve bell structure. If the expertise um if the expertise um gradually increases from retail to sophisticated

to sophisticated investor uh we can see that the assets uh the concentration of the assets tend to peak at the mid high uh expertise segment rather than at the two extremes. Uh therefore we can um classify we can see the crypto market in a relationship in a relation to the knowledge on crypto. First of all we have the retail investor. Then we have the financial investor. We have the private banking sector. Then there is the proprietary trading desk and the hedge funds. But what is still missing is the center of the cube. It means mutual fund,

insurance uh companies and pension funds. And it's really a pity. It's a shame because we have to remember that these players still manage the great majority of saving in Italy and they are not in the crypto market space at the moment. So the market is um concentrated is it's still a niche market concentrated at two opposite ends of this cure bell. On the left side there are the retailers which is uh which are who are uh not sophisticated, not so professional and on the other side we have something different uh which is a

few highly sophisticated investors who are very specialized on crypto and they represent the next generation of the Italian investor. Sorry maybe I was too long but it's a very complicated conversation >> even because 21 share is already a bit bridging between the two words giving ATPs to >> yes Italian market by everybody >> in fact about this conversations taking custody self custody uh they are all very interesting but in my opinion the Italian investor are not uh prepared at the moment they are not ready they are they are looking at this world but they are not

We are not very famous to be investors. We are more famous to be savers. Um uh this is actually true. And my um next question will be for Keen because who for who doesn't know Lo is the world largest right uh staking protocol managing over 40 billion dollar right >> I think right now with the price it's probably around 20 billion. Um I think 10 billion of ste is used as collateral on DeFi today. So 40 is a good number. We'll take that. >> All right. And no um so uh if the compliance part so the makeup will pass through and everything will actually be approved this open up the to the traditional

finance uh word some product that right now are just for crypto world. Okay. How will the stake um the staking protocols will evolve in this case if all the issuer for example Van that already has proposed something Black Rockck can actually enter it and be a player active player in the market what's lead proposition >> yeah so like you mentioned like Van has filed for the S1 that's currently in progress in the US so we speak to the VANC guys quite regularly on that topic um the one main product that's live in Europe right now is the wisdom tree staked ETH ETP.

>> Um that product launched with a $50 million seed. It's already grown I think 25% in the past 6 months. So like there's clearly significant demand for a staking product like that. Um when we typically speak to investors and we had a a nice lunch yesterday with 40 Italian private banks and family offices like one of the big things they're looking at is what the staking reward rate of the product is. So for example, most of the European ETPs right now typically operate on a 40 to maybe 50% staking ratio and the main reason for that is they have to keep a significant proportion liquid for redemptions because the execute for staking can fluctuate. These issuers typically operate on a T+1 or a T+2 redemption

requirement. So with native staking that doesn't exactly meet that requirement. But from a Lido perspective and what Wisdom Tree has done successfully with Lido is they have a liquid staking product and that's the first product globally that it's a 100% state and I think there's benefits in that obviously from a Lido perspective. We're driving the centralization. We're bringing on board new institutional users but it's also helping decentralization. So for context like Lido is a middleware. Nothing is actually staked with it. On the back end there's 900 different node operators. So when I speak to a lot of I suppose heavy crypto degen types for lack of a better term they would typically kind of criticize Lido for being centralized where it's

actually the exact opposite. There's a huge amount of work happening to make sure Ethereum remains decentralized and we're doing and my team I should say are doing a huge amount of work of bringing on institutions to help them support decentralization. Where I would actually become more concerned is if you have a custodian/node operator where it's just one entity. Suddenly centralization can be quite a big concern. So the likes of the the coin bases of the world, they're just one single node operator. The one custodian, they're not exa exactly driving decentralization.

So when I speak to institutions, I may not use the word decentralization. I tend to use diversification because that's a word. >> Exactly. They're comfortable with that term >> which is the same things at the end. >> Exactly. And it's helping driving decentralization and then from their perspective it reduces risk. So there's no single point of failure in that regard. >> Okay. You don't believe that there's going to be any chance that the staking layer will be let's say integrated into the the ETP's layer in a future? >> Well, like ETP is just a wrapper. So it's a very easy way for these institutions to get exposure to staking.

So I think again one of the big things for these institutions is like what proportion of the product is staked and the other thing I would say is like ETPs are just convenient like you go and you use a wisdom tree product like the list product they manage the custodian they manage the index provider they manage the insurance and they charge 50 pips >> and they already know how to do it which is was the problem that we said before they don't know how to do it now. Yeah, exactly. >> True, true, true. And please guys feel free to interrupt each other and say whatever. Um, so uh coming back to Kiara for the ATP sector.

Um, which is a product that you will see in the European market, not just Italian market because it's too small so far for what we um said before. um which kind of investor we will wait for this kind for this next uh HPS product or which kind of product we're waiting for the next months. >> So maybe not in the next months but in my opinion in the next 12 or 24 months we will see a big shift. we will see that the institutional investor will look for a transition because in my opinion the great majority of the traditional financial asset will be uh

tokenized. So we will uh move we will uh have a transition from closed financial instruments uh to uh digital uh fractionalized and 24hour on seven tradeable assets. And we can already see some signals from the market now. For example, we can see some uh big platform like Robin Hood or Kraken uh which are experimenting with tokenized bonds or uh for example also major institution in the institutional investor um environment like JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, Deutsche Bank they are working on the tokenization of bonds and

in addition there are also some initiatives uh linked to linked to the market index uh they are working with the standard and 500 on infrastructure like hyperlquid and in my opinion it's completely normal because we w we live in a digital in a um always on mark on word the word uh a digital world where we can buy we can purchase we can travel 24hour on 7th and this trans this transaction is uh is the future. So it will take times maybe not 12 months but uh in the next four or

five years probably uh the the product will be the tokenization. >> Okay. So we keep going on the real world asset tokenization and following for example the ono strategy which tokenized the US market and do you believe that this is going to be the next product for the next let's say cycle in 12 24 months >> yes probably >> okay Andre >> well I think we can differentiate between three things one thing is cryptos as an investment class and I think there we need to make the product smarter like the times where you buy bitcoin you wait for the price to pump and then you sell again. I feel like we've been a bit past that. So now we

talk about how can you actually use your assets to to get yield. Especially when we talk to institutional investors, they're very used to have their their assets work for them. So talking about lending, borrowing, staking and so on. So I think that's that's one side. I think buy and hold will not be enough especially not in the institutional sector. Then the second thing and that's what's driving adoption right now I would say is all the treasury use cases because their speed matters. So we have we heard it like JP Morgan they run their whole tokenized deposits book around the world. So their corporates actually send around tokenized deposits.

They've been doing that for years already. They just didn't say they were doing it until it became cool. Um so that's where we see a lot of traction. stable coins go into the same thing because their speed matters so much um on the whole tokenization of real world assets like securities and so on. I'm a bit bearish in the next one or two years because if you know how finance really works like if you've been to a big bank and you see the whole plummeting behind how these markets work, it's going to take a lot more than just one year to tokenize that. And the other question then is talk to a trader like do you even want instant settlement for your securities? Um because that means they need to preund it. Right now if you

trade you usually don't have the assets and you need to get them before you you have to do the the settlement T plus one or T plus2. So it's actually also a big mindset shift that comes with new friction and new risks and costs associated. So I think the third pillar like token is tokenized real world assets will not really become mainstream in the next 12 to 24 months. >> Yeah, we actually say something with you Joseph before that um from a European point of view we are ready for let's say enterprise big enterprise as a side but we are not ready for small things for startups for smaller investors. Yeah, I would say even if you look at the at the amount of companies that have gotten authorizations in Europe, most of them

are from the US anyways. So we lack quite a bit from a like percentage point of view European native like crypto asset service providers in part in in particular like even our client base is predominantly from the US or Asia in particular. But on this particular point I think D5 protocols the large ones the lidos the skies etc. at some point they kind of realized oh okay institutions will not just spin up a wallet and directly engage on chain. So now a lot of them rightly so like the wisdom 380p do you need to create familiar products for them that they're comfortable with from a compliance point of view risk point of view liquidity point of view etc with crypto as the plumbing on the back end and I think there is this trend already emerging we see it initially because we started receiving like the

past quarter most of our inquiries were anything from tokenization securitization structured nodes call options and these are kind of the products that we need to create for these institutions to actually enter into crypto because they're not going to spin up a multi ing a safe and you know deposit um into well liquidity pool. They want something they're familiar with and they have no issue engaging with crypto indirectly through a trade five product. I think >> do you think that's just a stepping stone until they have the wallets and do it themselves or do you think that's the end game? >> I think it's I think it is a stepping stone. I think it's they want to dip their toes through something which is more risk mitigated. But I think when they realize that potentially their yields can be higher if they directly engage on chain, I think when and when

they do get the technical expertise to actually have proper proper guard railways in place for the stuff, I think that is where them will actually see them like directly engage on chain which some of them already do by the way. A lot of them do. >> K. >> Yeah, it's an interesting one like I always feel from a sales perspective like you mentioned before like when I go into a room of cryptona people everyone knows what lido is. When I mention MetaMask, everyone knows if I go into a room of traditional finance folk, I spend a huge amount of my time selling LIDO and explaining what it is and that ultimately makes the sales cycle a lot longer. Like it's very difficult to go from education to opening your wallet.

They have to be comfortable with it. So like for example with the Wisdomree product, I think we answered something like 450 questions for Wizry over the course of a year. Like we had to get them comfortable with the idea of like what is a DAO like at the basic of levels like that talking about staking like how do you sign an agreement all these different elements which from crypton native people they understand that whereas if I have to explain to them oh there's five people on a multisig that again leads to conversations and topics and then risk departments that's quite difficult or we're speaking to a big asset manager in the states and we tell them there's 900 node operators So then their risk team will come back and say we want to KYC 900 people. That's not feasible.

>> So again there's an education journey that kind of goes with that but it just takes time. >> Yeah. which is something interesting actually because I I want to say something like um one point is going to someone who's into the financial words like banking or any kind of traditional finance and explain to them what's is about the cryptocurrency which is some the word in general which is something already difficult because we are taking out three out of five pillars of the normal finance let's say it's decentralized already you have destroyed all of the traditional finance concept.

But as users, um, we have put it so much we have put so much effort in trying to get people know what's the crypto market is about and teaching everybody. But if we think about it, not even the traditional finance is doing this. Like people are using money every day through a banking system. I'm pretty sure 20% I'm stay large 20% of the people know actually what's going on on their banking account.

So yeah, we are like going for 20 years almost trying to teach people about this but they're keep going using money not even knowing what's money is about like we do need something maybe at the foundation of this for teaching to people. What do you think? To be honest, I've been in the space for quite a few years as well and sometimes I'm confused myself like what what is crypto even? Like we throw everything into that term and if we think about all the cycles we've had in the past let's say five years. It's it's wild like what we did with NFTTS and what we did in the DeFi sector and with the whole meme coins and then even comparing Bitcoin and ETH like it starts there. So it's

it's it's very difficult to even explain what is crypto. Um and that's I think why we've also in the institutional sector we've moved on and we now call it digital assets because that's actually just everything. Um so I often talk to people they don't know what is a token versus a coin and like so I think even us as an industry we need to get better in how we use the language and I think it's also due to the no regulatory clarity that we can just use the words we want which is very different in traditional finance and I think it would help if we have wording and we're all talking about the same things. If I can add something about that, I totally agree with you. Uh

education is uh very important. It's the basic uh in this environment. And from an institutional investor point of view, uh many times when we speak with institutional investor, the main objection is we don't want to do crypto. Sometimes it's not from traditional banks we can do it, but they simple they don't want do it. And it's more a cultural problem than technological or regulatory problem because uh they still see crypto as a taboo topic that they don't want to touch. And this happens despite the clear ma regulation despite now in Luxembourg

uh crypto ETPS can be uh can represent up to 10% of the portfolio despite the listing on Bao Italana and despite many many many things many aspects which are in favor of crypto it's a cultural problem and it's where um issuers like 21 shares or many others have to work on. We have to educate and we have to help this industry to make a mindset shift um to understand that crypto is now established part of the traditional financial markets.

>> Yeah. I think also like another thing is crypto projects sometimes over complicate their products to a degree where no one no institution will ever be comfortable integrating with them. Like I think two years ago layer had come out with like fractionalized collateralized onchain segregated operated by Adam like Jesus Christ no one will ever >> for sure it's not a very easy topics and only only uh people who can get easily this topic are normally engineers or people with math background for the other >> it's still a complicated broad uh topic and therefore we have to help the envir environment to think crypto uh like a technology.

>> Yeah. But every time that there is a new technology, we do have this this kind of problem particularly this time. But we as a human being we used to have this every time. Let's talk about website in 2000. I I wasn't there but they told me that was pretty >> tough as well. So um Joseph since you're dealing with Mika like you're actually do this for different um companies uh do you believe that Europe can actually get a single like Mika for everyone or do we will need in the future so let's say from five years till here uh state like national regulmentation or they keep going doing the like just one all in one

>> I mean the the kind of promise of Mikos to harmonize the regulatory framework for crypto assets across the EU. On paper, that is what it does. Off paper, what actually happened is a lot of regulators across the European Union, their implementation of their supervisory practices in relation to Mika are completely fragmented. If you apply for an authorization in Malta versus Spain, versus Italy, versus Netherlands, you're going to get four or five different approaches to the authorization, >> which is a big big problem. And like a lot of people think of regulators as like these inanimate robots that you know you put code in them and they operate the same like they are people at the end of the day. So like the Spanish regulator in particular like when Mika came into force they panicked because when it comes to like the more complex

product types like we work on authorizations you know RAIN is like onchain centric um smart contract based like cryptocolateralized credit card. Um you go apply for with something like that to Spain they will basically shove you out the door. you go apply for like centralized exchange, it's fine. So although we have harmonization like on paper and that's what it's supposed to do because it's an EU regulation, the implementation from a regulator point of view is completely fragmented at this point in time. ESMO doesn't help because it needs to give more guidance and it doesn't to be quite honest. I hope there's no one from ESM in the room. Um hopefully um but I think this will improve over time like I'm from Malta.

The benefit that we had is that I think like Switzerland in particular, we had one of the first fullyfledged regulatory frameworks for crypto assets in the world and our VFA regime as we had termed it was actually even more complex than Mika. So when it came to us implementing Mika, we actually had to take it a few notches down. Um but what that resulted is we had seven years of a regulator having experience dealing with exchanges, crypto payment providers, etc. other regulators in Europe, this was their first time dealing with these crypto projects. So when it comes to like something that has an onchain element, they deem it too complicated and the process is going to be much longer. So we have harmonization on paper, but I think regulators need to educate themselves a lot more for us to

have optimal harmonization across the board. Yeah, we don't even have the Mika yet like the the final the final >> I mean yeah technically like a consultation paper just came out I think on the 20th of May and they actually like are going to they're soliciting opinions on like staking DeFi whether there need to be any changes to Mika um so it's still not done actually so like the basic primitives of crypto asset services which most of them are influ are influenced by method as always um they're there but I think we'll have some some changes my frustration is Mika has been in force for like a year and a half and they're already starting to discuss Mika 2.0. Like we haven't even seen whether this works. A lot of the applicants that applied haven't even gotten the authorization yet. But you

already want to change it. So that has created some instability I think cuz big institutions want foreseeability. They want to know if they're going to invest for 5 to 10 years. Nothing's going to change ideally too much for 5 to 10 years. I don't think we're helping ourselves in this regard basically. >> Okay. Thank you so much. Yeah. I that's my only question like do actually do we are doing it for us or just because we are risky or we are afraid to fall behind in particular the states. So that's was the um the main question. Okay guys so um thank you so much for this um panel. I do believe that we keep uh we have take out few interesting point for the future and do you have any

question or something else that you want to add or someone in the stage has any question they want to ask to our um speakers please just raise their hands. There is a question. Hey guys, thanks for the panel. I've got a question for Ken at at Lido. So like u if we're looking at at G like we're we're clearly seeing that that's kind of the main execution client for Ethereum staking. I mean here we're talking about close to 90 to 100% on Binance Coinbase and uh at Lido is close to 80% I think

or at least that was uh until one and a half years ago. So do you see that currently has a like single point of risk? Uh are institutional investors aware of that? Um yeah, like that's that's the question. Second question I have for Andrew is um compared to Traaser, you're not open source. Why is that? Thank you. >> So I can give you quite a high level answer but refer you to more technical and more intelligent people than myself.

But I would say like does it come up as a topic of conversation? Yes. Does the tread get pulled on quite significantly? No would be the answer. Um I can say with absolute confidence that like there's no one doing more in the ecosystem than Lido to make Ethereum decentralized and secure and we do have kind of dedicating working groups and people quite passionate about this topic to make improvements and changes. Um, so yeah, at a very high level, that's probably the best answer I can give you for right now.

>> Andre, well, I work on the institutional side, so it's a fundamentally different product. Um, yeah, we can pick it up afterwards, but I think uh I'd rather have a wallet that is not open source, but it cannot be hacked. Um, if you don't know what I'm talking about, watch the YouTube videos of the DOA. Um, yeah. Brilliant. I guess uh it wraps it up. Thank you so much to Kiara, Andre, Kane, Joseph, and Martina.