ETHMilan26 European Stablecoins

Transcript

Good stuff. So, next uh next panel here, pretty excited about this one. It's going to be about all about European stable coins panel discussion and uh we have a few very interesting speakers. From your left to the right, we'll have Pablo Dphano, director of collateral management, Franken Coin Association. Make your way to the stage. Roertus uh Rotenauser, chief commercial officer, all united head of GTM and sales at Dakosa.

Derek David, fun residence Vento and X-Rain. And then lastly, one of our best co-ounder of Milan, Aleandro Raboni. Welcome everyone. >> All right, very excited about this one. Um, just want to give like some uh quick context. Then we'll go around and everyone is going to introduce themselves.

So, um I mean even one year ago, I would say like it wasn't really a thing. Now it's growing like um quick data like still 98 to 99% of the stable coin market is USD denominated. But this year we've seen like some decent growth. We're approaching billion dollar which still very very irrelevant I would say. Uh but we are going in the right direction. Uh we have like just like it's fresh news. Uh Kivalis for those of you that don't know it's just doubled in size. It was like 15 banks uh

couple of weeks ago. Now it's 37 banks and they also have like some international player like Abn Ambro back in them and um so there is a lot going on and uh it's getting very political uh and uh I want to deep dive but first of all let's go around and introduce yourself >> from Paulo. Uh yes, hello good morning everyone. Um to the ones who attended our side event yesterday, I hope you got some nice rest after the operivo. So my name is uh Pao. I'm Italian but I grew up in Switzerland and I'm here to represent the largest Swiss Frank stable coin um which is Frankencoin. So I'm

part of the Frankencoin association. Uh the Frankencoin itself is a fully decentralized overcolateralized and oracle free borrowing protocol on Ethereum. So that means the Frankencoin association that I'm a part of is not the issuer but the nonprofit steward supporting the protocol's development and my particular role at Frankencoin is to expand the collateral base. So by adding more collateral assets for people to mint Frankencoin this uh drives more utility people can use a wider variety of assets and it also diversifies the risk um in the collateral base. So very excited for the panel today.

>> Yes, thank you. My name is Rupus. I'm with All Unity since day one. All Unity was created, founded in February 24 in Frankfurt. Um we have a EMI license under German Baffin regulator being BA compliant. Um and I have to correct um or be a bit more precise to PO they are decentralized we are centralized our business is regulated mica compliant stable coins and I'm happy to answer questions from uh the side of things regarding US dollars and what do we do different from the rest of the world um we have just launched a

stable coin in Swiss Frank as well we have a euro stable coin we bring a Swedish crona stable coin on on June 15th. So we have a a complete um let's say road map uh to add additional stable coins because we are strong believer in the idea of every FX will be on chain eventually. Thank you. Hey guys, nice to meet you. My name is Daniel. I head up all of sales go to market for Dakota. Dakota is a US-based stable coin orchestration platform. Um, our goal is to help move money at the speed of the internet via stable coins. And so quite practically, our product is an API that you ingest into your fintech to essentially issue

virtual accounts, virtual wallets to your end users and allow them to on and off. So, >> hi everyone. Uh, my name is uh Derek David. Um I'm currently a founder in residence um at the venture building program by XR Ventures in Turin. It's called Vento. Uh we're uh we're currently working in the intersection of uh AI and stable coins. Uh before I was uh I was working uh at this um stable coin company called Rain, which is a startup that's now that's now valued at $2 billion. Um they were basically they basically started as like the the Brex for a crypto. now they're becoming like the the stripe uh for for stable coins.

>> Great. Thank you guys. Um so we have like in this panel like uh obviously from u entrepreneurs like uh Rupertus and uh and uh and Paulo from a different angle like you guys are more of an association and then we have like obviously um expert that uh are like scaling things globally and having like more um overarching like view on on the market like you guys from Lakota and Vento. So all the question and X-ray. So all the question is going to be like you can grab it or you can pass it doesn't matter like so first first question is um more obviously for Rupus and and

Paulo. So it looks like it's a little bit of a mess like always in Europe, right? We have like digital euro, we have like stable coins, we have lagard that is against, we have like uh now this kalis uh which we have bankat like it's it's getting very crowded but the market cap is still embarrassingly low. So in my opinion, so how can we scale uh European stable coins and what are some of the use cases you're seeing now that you guys are pioneers like now like you did it before all of them. So what are the challenges and how do you see the next wave of growth? How do we fix it?

>> So I think for Swiss Frank stable coin, it's very easy to answer that one. So what a Swiss Frank stable coin can that a USD stable coin can't is to preserve your purchasing power over time. So if you look at the history of the US dollars um over the last 50 years it has lost about 70% of its purchasing power compared to Swiss Frank. So I think there should be alternatives to such a weak currency on chain and uh I think also the spirit of crypto is that we want to get away from the traditional financial system for which the US dollar is basically the pinnacle. Um it stands for over overspending. Um they're using tether and circles uh USD stable coins

as a vehicle to even fund more of that overspending. So I think we really need to step up and uh give people alternatives on chain. How much time do I have these is you ask um like the mother of all questions and I want to start with the very simple answer. I will be very excited to find out what Kalis does and what it doesn't because so far they have nothing. They have just a company and adding banks. They have no license. They have no regulation. They have no product. They have no tech. They have just very little. So I'm pretty relaxed that we have a good year in in

lead time before Kalis pops up. And then I still don't understand what their business model is. Our business model is very simple and I can explain in two sentences. We couldn't care less if a retail individual is buying his Bitcoin with stable coins or with fiat. Doesn't make doesn't make a difference. not a use case. It used to be a use case in the past when Tether and USDC were sort of alone in the world. Um that's the first thing. The second thing is our main objective is building global payment rails using stable coins and we are the product that is transferred from A to B. There's somebody who converts

fiat into stables. There's somebody who moves the stables from A to B and there's somebody who offramps the stables in the in the destination uh address and we are just the tool in the middle and I couldn't care less once again if it's a digital euro that is being transferred or a digital yen or a digital Aussie dollar. What I do know is if our institution clients such as Daimler Semens do telecom if they send digital euros to Australia the receiver doesn't need digital euros at least not now maybe in 10 years there is enough stables in circulation but right now there is probably very likely that he will off ramp instantly into Aussie dollar fiat and this is what we're building. So, it's all about payment

rails, payment rails, payment rails, adding additional uh digital currencies into the game. Um, and from And why did we originally do it? You're absolutely right. Right now, US dollars daily stable coins represent 99.9% period of the transaction or TVL volume. Yeah. But in the real fiat world these days, the dollar um percentage is roughly 60% and 20% is in euros. So if we simply do the analogy if we move currency onchain and tether and circle were just smart enough 10 years ago to do it and now we have to catch up what they've been building in the past but if this 20% fiat swift payment is somehow moved onchain there's

a tremendous amount of money to be made >> absolutely and you don't have to convince me like I'm a supporter um for you guys from the industry are you seeing like growing demand And what's your experience uh for you Derek? Later maybe even first for you later like what are some of the best design practices? But first u Danielle on >> Yeah. Yeah. Look, I I don't think you can replace the you know the dominance of US dollar stable coins. However, I think there are very specific use cases for euro stable coins. And so if you think about a European business who has revenue in euros, costs in euros, payroll in euros, it doesn't really make

sense for them to use dollar stable coins because they're being exposed to FX risk. And so I think for these specific use cases, euro stable coins are make a lot of sense. Um, and we're seeing a lot of demand for them, but I think it's for very specific use cases. Um so yeah >> Derek from um so you obviously you're one of the founders of Rain founding team I'm curious like what are some of the best practices in terms of design and how did you design the product and what could be beneficial for yours >> this is a very good question actually um I remember in the early days of rain we were um one one of the priorities that

we had is to uh is to is to make the the end users feel like they're they're not using a crypto product at all. So we're trying to make uh you know applying abstraction practices in terms of design um and uh and making sure it's uh frictionless uh smooth uh but at the end of the day uh what we learn and that uh that uh rain is still doing now is is that they they made the they made the design invisible. So the the end users don't feel like they're they're interacting with crypto or stable coins at all. So um and and I remember back in the days we learned a lot from Mercury

and RA and RAMP because uh we we we like their design and it's one of the best UX. So so we uh we we took a lot of inspiration from them then we applied the terrain. >> Awesome. Um want to add like a few more notes for the audience. So um you could ask like why do you need like European or Swiss Frank stable coins but let's focus on Europe because you could think okay digital euro is coming but digital euro is not going to be programmable and they already said that right so there is the space for European stable coins which will be the

only form of programmable money so it's just a matter of I I think we'll see a variety like uh more issues like uh old unity but digital ur again I repeat is not going to be programmable there's going to be an online version an offline version which I'm really happy about for different reasons but there is not going to be any API it's just going to sit in your bank it's going to come probably in 2029 2030 but the rest of forms of money if you want to do some different flow if you want to move money around is not going to be done with digital euro so that's Why again we are talking about this it's a big topic but most people I I know don't know it because the

information is is not very accessible I would say to this day so we have like two different approaches here so one is a decentralized approach the other approach is regulated ma compliant etc. So Sal me your vision for that first. >> Um yeah so I think the regulated versus decentralized approach is particularly interesting for the Swiss Frank stable coin because uh famously Swiss Frank interest rates are negative. So as a centralized issuer if you have to back your stable coin with cash or cash equivalents it's going to be very difficult to scale that. Um so with the

Swiss Frank we see that um the decentralized approach is actually much easier to scale. So um basically the way Frankencoin is backed is instead of being slightly overcolateralized with cash and cash equivalents it's heavily overcolateralized with other crypto assets and the people who are minting Frankencoin they are actually borrowing on chain so they're also open to paying an interest to borrow Frankencoin and that interest can then be passed on to the holders as a yield. So how this works is that a 100% of the Frankencoin that are being minted, they're paying one or two% of interest for these Franken coins to to exist and then about

30% of the holders of Frankencoin are staking or saving those Franken coins in the savings module and the yield can be passed on. So I think one of the big differences is the yield aspect when it comes to Swiss Franks. Um but happy to hear the benefits of of all unity as well. >> I I I can couldn't agree more and we have entered into a partnership with with Franken Coin because we bridge so to say um the easy access path for Swiss Frank holders into Frankencoin. So you can mint all unity stable coins and then you can swap it on the Frankencoin platform because I'm not allowed to pay interest rates. Nevertheless, there is no

interest rates to be shared in Switzerland anyway. But um sharing nothing is still nothing. Um but even in other countries where we have positive yield curves for the collateral management uh I'm not allowed to share any revenue for my car regulatory reasons. So this example in Switzerland where we work together is is a fantastic blueprint how centralized regulated stable coins can drive adoption in the decentralized space because they can create yield as Bola just said we cannot create yield. So we are quite happy about this partnership. Yeah. And and on the other side, Alanto, to answer your question on on on the Euro stable coins, it is it is it is it is a challenge. Um and there we

are not alone and we will for sure not be alone. Um and I share absolutely your idea of there will be many many different ways of digital money. There will be CBDC's, there will be um tokenized deposits, there will be digital monies from the central banks, there will be stable coins though there. But every customer, client, prospect has a certain specific use case and an idea why he needs this particular version of money. If I want to pay uh an invoice when a container ship enters the harbor in Tokyo, you can program the money and somebody breaks the lock and the transfer is instantly done on chain.

That doesn't work with any other company, any any other form of digital money because most of the other digital money formats are most likely on permission chains, not programmable for an internal network. Of course, if if JP Morgan uh Onyx is a is a is a is a is a fantastic example how an internal stable coin and they have since 10 years, six, eight years. Um it works perfectly but they cannot use it to send money from JP Morgan to uh Mitsubishi Bank in Japan.

That that doesn't work. Yeah. So it is always the question of the initiator. What what problem do I want to solve? >> Yeah. Uh that's great. Maybe can you explain or anyone else that wants the difference between a stable coin and a tokenized deposit for the audience because today it's very talked about uh but I think it will be beneficial. Um in a stable coin needs a regulated framework. It needs a minimum of an EMI license. So all unity is a limited company limited by liability. Um we have

applied with an with a base prospectus and a license application to Buffin and the license we received is simply the issuance of stable coins which means first buyer comes in needs to be onboarded sends me money. The machine room recognizes there's money coming in from from an investor, transfers the fiat money into digital money, sends the digital coins to the to the first buyer, and moves the funds into what we call the reserve bank and allocates it into money market funds, cash or cash like stuff. That's how a stable coin is operating. A tokenized deposit is always a bank internal product where you simply tokenize an

account. So out of a classic bank account you create a digital bank account and this is then transferable as if it would be a stable coin on chain is you you simply enable um a an account or a wallet holder of a tokenized deposit to send fractions of his deposit money on chain from A to B but only within that bank. And the difference is so it acts like a stable coin. It smells like a stable coin but it is not a stable coin because on tokenized deposits the bank can pay you interest rates. You still keep your money with the bank. So you receive interest rates which is different to stable coins. As I said you cannot collect interest rates with stable

coins. So a tokenized deposit is a is a digital format of a cash account that enables the transfer of money onchain within a certain closed loop most likely being a bank. So you cannot as I as I described you cannot transfer a tokenized deposit from comments bank Frankfurt to Standard Chartered Singapore doesn't work because they use probably different protocols um different parameters uh different interest rates different FX rates so it's it's just not work it's not programmable it's a it's a proprietary bank alone solution to ena enable onchain transfers and still pay interest rates

So, we have to go backwards to then go forward. Anyways, um I'm curious um Danielle and Derek um what do you think of this product tokenized deposits and also how do you work with um decentralized and also regulated stable coins uh maybe at Dakota and uh for you in general like >> yeah I can touch on we work with fintexs neo banks payment service providers remittances and uh these companies all have compliance teams and so they want to touch regulated stable coins and so we see a big demand for those from our

customers um but there's obvious use cases for for for the others as well but that's what we're seeing at Dakota is a big ask for regulated stable coins and D what's your view on this these new products from banks tokenized deposits um if you want to share like do you think it makes from a design perspective they does it make sense which kind of use cases I think they unlock and which they don't I mean they definitely have potential uh I mean you have to think of like how uh what's uh what's more the reward here than than the risk right so whenever I

see you know like tokenized deposits um you know you can call them some people they don't call them like that but uh to me if uh If it if if it gives the end user more benefit than than reward then uh that's that's more important to me at the end of the day. >> Perfect. Um I want to touch upon like more the geopolitical side a little bit. Um so obviously um the fact that we have the biggest stable coin in Europe is issued by circle. So I think that's a big elephant in the room.

Um and obviously I think uh that you know all of these European initiatives like including digital euro were done in the first place to get away from Visa and Mastercard that again are American issuers and yet Circle managed to uh be the biggest biggest one so far. But how do you see this evolving? I I don't think it's gonna end up uh well I think and that's that's why Kalis is there in the first place but and and probably also all unity etc. So if whoever wants to grab it

>> um you you hit the nail on the head and all a lot of large corporates we talk to simply do not want to engage with the US issuer of stable coins and I believe that um Euro C could have reached Xfalls of TVL if there would not be Americans. Um don't misunderstand me. We love Circle. We are part of the Circle payment network. So they accepted all Unity stable coins on the payment network. So we work with them quite closely and uh but we hear it all the time specifically since the Trump administration took over rain in the US.

Corporate captains get a little bit concerned if somebody presses the red buzzer and payment rails are suddenly disrupted. uh and for this reason people tend to wait or integrate or build a European solution. Which one at the end of the day will succeed or build be superior to the others? I don't know. We pitch for the business as well. Um but the geopolitical aspect is definitely important. But it's not only important compared to the US. I mean even in Europe there's a big competition between does Germany have their own stable coin?

Yeah, we have one. Does the French one have one? Yeah. Okay. They have one as well. Do the Spanish have one? Yeah, they have one as well. Do the Italian have their own stable coin as well? Well, not yet, but maybe soon as well. So, every local regional government is interested in showing, yeah, I'm I'm part of this digital transformation as well. Um, and that's why Mika was more or less implemented and it took seven years, but at least it's and we can have a lot of critics about the Mica rule book, but at least it's something that 27 member states agreed on. Yeah. At least they found some common understanding of how the digital product of a stable coin can be handled. So, but the geopolitical aspect is monster. And I'm traveling excessively these days. I

was in Taiwan two weeks ago. I was in Ghana last week and everybody is in the process of creating their own stable coin regime and they look into Micah as a blueprint. They look into the Genius Act as a blueprint. They look into Hong Kong. They just launched their stable coin regime. So, everybody's going to come. Yeah. And everybody wants to make sure that they're not missing out uh in the big game of digital payments globally in the future. >> Thank you. Great answer. Um, anyone else want to add something else or we move on? Okay. So I I totally agree and I think uh I'm curious um obviously about the future and which

kind of private money like uh do you think we will see like Rupus you you touched like upon like a very good point like you know even in Europe where we have euro we'll probably see some form of competition even like I mean Mika has done a great job to avoid also that but you you otherwise you could have seen like I don't know a form of euro only backed by uh Italian bonds on and then like or uh French euro backed by French bond I I don't think it's possible under mik but um if if not they've done in my opinion a great job the regulators to avoid that um but in for example in the US right where the

landscape is completely different obviously it is more like um a less a fair kind of approach like like we expect. So which kind of private money you we will see like for example in in the US like how is the stable coin landscape emerging in maybe for you Daniel that you talk a lot with the industry. >> Um sorry what do you mean by how is that >> like which which kind of project we will see like big companies issuing their own stable coin. How how do you see that evolving like behind beyond maybe you know circle and and uh because what Roberto said like we we're we're going

to see like a very crowded space right so which kind of projects do you think we will see >> I think um on a larger scale what we're seeing and where we think this is going um especially in the US is like any marketplace we will really want to become become a bank via stable coins, uh, some form of neo bank because if you're touching a lot of money and moving money from counterparty A to counterparty B, think about Uber, right? The cost that they have to move money around and pay all their drivers and take money in from the people that are um, actually paying for the rides. Um, if Uber had its own stable coin, they could earn yield on that um, and simultaneously move money

around much faster. And also drivers could potentially choose to hold their balance in the Uber stable coin, earn yield on it, and then deposit it to their bank account whenever they want to. Um, so we're seeing a lot of this. Um, and and we think that this is like kind of where the industry is going in the United States. Um, and so obviously like US dollar back stable coins for that. Um, are a great solution. Um and so we are actually launching our own issuance um in the coming quarter and so we hope to take a piece of that pie.

>> Perfect. H I mean I um studied the economics right and um when I look at Michael Porter right and I applied is theory to stable coins then I I'm like okay it makes a lot of sense right if I have a power over my suppliers and I can impose my currency then it's going to go a long way so uh and and Derek for you how do you see that like um I'm talking about you know Michael is an economist basically I don't know if you're familiar with it or if you remember it. How do you think, you know, you seeing like stable coin being used to impose power over suppliers, right? Because that's I think

what's going to happen from a design perspective or like any perspective you want. Do do you think that's an interesting use case? >> I would say uh I would say uh definitely definitely yes. uh from a from supplier perspective, there's definitely this um data that supports this trend that we're seeing um since like uh 2024. Uh and as a matter of fact, I've seen new stable coin startups are are working on this type of idea. So um and supporting also to what uh to what Daniel said, um we're seeing a lot of platforms just doing something in stable coins, right? uh we

we saw deal which is this uh uh payroll platform uh launching a stable coin feature to to allow uh employees to get paid with stable coins. So every everyone is just doing stable coins nowadays. Uh you know um and as like you said nobody wants to get left out. Um but also for from a company perspective there's uh there's um you know uh there's the the money aspect right because uh they can be more optimized they could be more uh efficient Daniel you wanted to add something okay then I think it's going to be a wrap soon so just want to go around like if

we talk in one year how do you see uh this space evolving in in particular looking at at Europe but not only that like uh in one year what would have changed for stable coin if we come back here from Pablo to Derek I hope that in one year from now we won't be comparing local stable coins with USD stable coins but local stable coins with local fiat rails the secret of success and adoption in the near and mid-term future depends on the willingness from banks to open their gates and put their shoes from the

brakes. That's the that's the short answer because when we speak to corporate customers and they are they understand the use case and they have a problem they want to solve the first question is who does the coin perversion for me and then I say well it's your bank and then the answer is my bank doesn't offer me coin conversion and then what else do I need to do stable coins then you need a wallet where do I get a wallet from well go to your bank they should be able to provide you a wallet guess what the bank doesn't want to offer them any wallets.

And then it means the cost the corporate has the has the option either he gives up a 50-year-old banking relationship which is unlikely to do because he has got other business to do with the bank not only stable coins and on the other side he's not so hot in starting self custodized wallets and and and metam mask and ledgerano in the pocket in order to enable stable coin transfers. So that is the crucial point when mass adoption will take place is when the trade fi sector opens up and the pressure is mounting every day. And I guess from answer your question in in a years from now I would not be surprised if the the

total outstanding TVL in stable coins have doubled once again because it is happening and and and and Daniela made an example and the Uber type of guys they don't give a they just do it. They don't ask their bank they just do it. Yeah. And there's a bit of a difference. And if if you speak to Revolute or or Robin Hood or Bit Panda or Trade Republic in Berlin, these young NEO brokers, you open a bank account and you instantly get a wallet attached to it. You don't even need to ask for one.

You get one open without you knowing about it. So, it's happening. It's just a question when the trade fire sector will be mature enough to say, "Okay, let's open the gates." Because they're going to lose business anyway. also when Mark Zuckerberg is going back, right? We're all waiting for that. >> Yeah, I think um inevitably stable coin adoption will double over the next couple of years um if not triple. Um and as I touched on earlier, I think workers in general will be more and more comfortable with receiving their pay in stable coins, especially in emerging markets. Um and so yeah, I think that's at Dakota, that's where we think the world's going. So

>> yeah. Um I agree. Um I'm originally from Philippines. So uh I I I can feel the the true uh value of of stable coins. Uh I'm uh and uh and if in case some of you don't know, Philippines is one of the country that has uh the highest remittance uh economy. Uh so I definitely see stable coins uh doubling at least and you know and maybe even surpassing Visa in annual transaction volume. >> All right, thank you everyone.

I just checking if there are any questions from the audience that we might want to to pick. >> How much time do we have for the question? >> We have time for a couple of questions. I asked for time because the question is a bit complex but uh my opinion is pretty interesting. Uh I've been in crypto for six plus years at this point. So I'm always for decentralization and I'm a huge fan of that. But in matter of stable coins, I see this decentralization and how much the liquidity gets from fragmented as

why Europe is losing on the stable coin like shenanigans. Why ted is winning on the dollar like TVL thing. There is no Minnesota USD, Texas USD or whatever. They just have one coin. I mean Europe is Europe. We have Europe. dollar sorry money is the most funible thing like by definition one euro is one euro one dollar is $1 so that's why like on the dichotomy between if we are going to have a regulated stable coin like from Europe from the main banks etc or if we're going to have the decentralized one like a billion different decentralized from France uh Berlin whatever like I think the

regulated one are going to win just Because at the end of the day we we were talking about >> maybe go for the question. >> Oh yeah sorry I I was I was going to ask that but I think I prolonged too too much like do you really think that this decentralized way of doing stable coins are going to win on the hands. We are going to have a billion micronomies like inside our European macroeconomy or Europe is going to say like digital euro is our legal tender. Every other stable coin is just a step on top of it and you need to swap it for the real euro.

>> Gotcha. >> Want to take it? >> Well, it's probably more. >> Yeah, sure. >> It's probably more a question for Holo, but I I I would agree on the fact that um this is Europe, right? You're absolutely right. There is no uh California dollar stable coin and no Michigan stable bitcoin. There is just one US dollar stable coin. Um Europe takes different unfortunately and we have we will have many many different but ideally they all belong to the same mica regulation. So they are funible.

You can swap it at what what is left and I don't even think that there is a liquidity crunch or a split in liquidity even if you have to in a maximum example let's say 27 different euro stable coins from 27 member states at the end of the day it's a riskmanagement decision to say which one I trust. Do I trust a German regulator more than a Cyprus regulator? Do I trust a French regulator more than a Dutch regulator? Who sits in the cap table of this of the issuer? How is the reserve management done? We for example manage our entire reserves only in cash overnight. We do not invest in bonds. We do not invest in money market

funds. We put everything in cash. We're giving up yield for the benefit of instant availability. if somebody wants to redeem because it is simply against the idea of stable coins. If somebody sends me stable coins back instant on chain and then he has to wait. Oh, sorry guys. I need to sell my bonds first and it's Friday afternoon. You won't get your money before Monday. It's nonsense. Yeah. So that's why we it's our golden cow in the room. We do only put our money in reserve cash accounts which are instantly terminated when somebody redeems the tokens. So I believe there's there will be plenty of euro stable coins but all falling under the same regime they will be um uh

exchangeable and uh um and and and the difference will be the risk factor of how is the reserve management done and that every user needs to himself >> just sorry quickly I'll take it then Paulo if you want to add something I think in the US is not that different like you you also have circle that is the equivalent of what all unit is trying to do and the third there is the equivalent of Frankencoin if you want to you know expand it and so you you also went to that process but it's already kind of completed and you went up to Trump and they decided to take a direction and it was easier because when you say okay we are going to open up

this market and they saw the opportunity to uh that we didn't see in Europe we then felt like okay we can just you know print more depth and find new buyers of uh our um our depth using stable coin as a weapon in Europe it was refused to take this approach so that that I think what makes the whole difference and uh I also want to say that uh the biggest civil coin was again invented by Italians like banks so I'm very happy and Pablo please go >> yeah maybe to um explain Frankencoin is more of um equivalent to make a Dow die than to tether. So it's fully

decentralized. You don't have an identifiable issuer and I think that is that the use case of that is uh very much where the use case of crypto lies. So um you don't have to rely on a counterparty to have their operations under control. If you want that um if your compliance department wants that and uh have someone they can call then that's a great benefit. Some some institutions really want that but the crypton natives they kind of went want to get away from that and that's why I think the decentralized stable coins have an other audience to cater to. So in your case is more for a reser value like people get franking coin to have

like front but in the digital version not to exchange Frank to Frank. >> Yes that is correct. Yes it's basically store of value. Yeah. >> Thank you very much to our panel and we welcome our next guest. This is cool.