Ethereum Sequencing and Preconfirmations Call #17

Transcript

hello and welcome everyone to sequencing call number 17 I think this is going to be an absolutely epic call uh you can already tell by all all of the awesome faces that we see here almost like a group picture we have uh over 120 people on the call uh usually it's a bunch of nerds who join about 40 to 80 but uh this is a very unique call um we're going to be extending it to a whole hour and a half um we have uh about 16 or 17 speakers um and uh what I'm going to do is actually start uh by sharing

um a little presentation on my end just to to get things uh kicked off so just a second sorry about this okay so um call call number 17 is very special because it marks uh basically a one-year anniversary for these calls we've really been grinding the very first call that we've had was call zero in uh February uh TW 2024 please make sure to mute your microphones um and um yeah in less than

a year we've been able to to pack 18 calls and actually above and beyond these 18 calls we've packed four separate sequencing days across multiple continents people came to to these big events to these conferences and and spent a whole day just talking about sequencing and we even had a 5-day sequencing week Bonanza uh in Thailand um around uh around Devon now this is not meant to be a technical call like the usual calls that we have this is meant to be more of a social call um and I expect many people to be watching this on on YouTube so I kind of want to zoom out and and go back to some of the of the basics so we have the well computer we have ethereum what

does it give us it gives us multiple services and the most basic service is this notion of settlement uh where you can as an L2 tap into the hundreds of billions of dollars of liquidity that eum has to offer and hopefully in in the near future there will be trillions and then hopefully eventually uh tens of trillions of of dollars um and if you do consume uh eum settlement then you're set to be an eum L2 and that's enough to be part of the family uh that's enough to be part of of eum but if you want to go above and beyond there's three more optional services that etherum offers namely data availability sequencing and execution so

these are services are provided by the validators and that you have the option to if you wish uh to uh to basically enhance or or or customize your your L2 and if you consume eum data availability you're set to be a rollup uh so that's what that's the definition and if you don't consume data vality you set to be a validium and for sequencing we also have a term which is based uh you are a base roll app or base L2 if you use the sequencing that is provided by the validators uh and then finally we have uh execution the evm as a layer which is secured by the validators and if you were to use um the ethereum execution

layer you're set to be native so that's the mental model that I have and if you so happen to choose uh to use all three of the optional Services then arguably you've become one with etherum L1 itself right and eum L1 smart contract is simultaneously based it's native and it's consuming L1 data availability and the lines really start to blur once you have uh all of these three uh properties now if you want to learn more about all of these things rollups Bas sequencing and Native execution there's various writeups there's vitalic rollup Centric road map from about 5 years ago posted on the E magicians there's a NE

research post on based uh rollups superpowers from L1 sequencing there's a very new re um research post uh titled native rollups superpowers from L1 execution this time uh it was posted earlier this week and uh just yesterday we had vitalic kind of double down on this idea of the rollup Centric road map with a post titled scaling a L1 and l2s in 2025 and Beyond and I think you know one of the key takeaways for me is that we really want l2s to be successful and the rollups to be successful and that means really aggressively pushing um blob scaling and also kind of finding ways to to fix some of the you know

fragmentation issues that we've had and this is what uh uh this this call is is is partly about now um the native roll apps concept even though it's been floated around for several years it's been mentioned in amas it's been mentioned in podcasts and actually IDE years date back if you go to GitHub all the way to seven years ago I kind of want to uh tell you what it is just so that you have a sense because it's so so fresh um so it's basically a form of introspection for the evm where the evm can see itself and allow rollups or l2s to make use of the the native virtual machine and this pre-compile takes um

three different uh important inputs and it returns true or false and basically it's trying to make a claim about the execution of this Trace so here we have evm state rout a starting State Route which is called a pre-state route and an ending State Route which is called a a postate route and what we what we're claiming when we call this pre-compile is that the execution of the trace starting from pre-state rout will end in postate route if you didn't understand that that's not a problem but um uh otherwise uh this is what it's all about and it will return true if if this is this is inde a correct statement and it will return false otherwise and then there's

this final input here which is just used for for accounting and and pricing of of gas now usually um you'll hear me kind of shill native rollups and base rollups uh and rollups in general but today I actually want to do the opposite uh I actually want to celebrate in some sense the those who choose to explicitly not be rollups and to not be based and to not be native and this is really I think one of the amazing things that the DM Community has to offer um within itself L2 so one example here uh is Mega E so Mega E chooses to not be a rollup because it uses igen da it chooses to

not be based because it has a centralized sequencer and I also just learned recently that it has a custom tree uh a custom evm tree so it ditched the Patricia merckel tree and that gives them give them a 10x uh Improvement in in right throughput so this is an example of kind of a very end of the spectrum where they've decided to not take any of the optional services and that is a fantastic trade-off for for them to make then we have uh projects like stocket that have you know a completely different virtual machine to the evm Cairo VM and that gives them you know all sorts of benefits it gives them 10x maybe 100x even uh snar friendliness and that's that's an amazing thing to to

to have uh we have project like Aztec that you know are trying to get privacy uh deep into the virtual machine and they have things like like Noir which makes them evm incompatible and therefore non-native But ultimately this is something uh worth celebrating within def Community um we have Eclipse which is you know somewhat similar I guess to Mega but one thing to mention here is that they use the the the svm um instead of this this this C evm with a custom tree uh we have arbitrum that has also been like pushing the the boundaries of innovation um they have a Time boost uh which is the the the sequencer which is

chosen by governance it's a 14 out of 20 Federated sequencer and it has advantages like ultra um low slot times 250 milliseconds and also has the benefit of of not reorg um and so some applications like hyper liquid that are that have attracted billions of dollars of deposits uh from arbitrum you know benefit from the fact that there's no reorg and you can have super fast deposits and things like that and arbitrum has also innovated with uh stylus wasm So within the evm they've embedded wasm and that technically makes them evm a non- equivalent but it opens them uh opens a huge amounts of of potential Innovation with millions of

developers who don't necessarily know solidity who can now make use of of Arbitron we have fuel VM that has a utxo model and uh we have Phoenix which is using like really Advanced fully homomorphic encryption for for the version of DVM and the reason why I wanted to to celebrate this diversity is because um today I don't want to be talking about Native based Ro apps I want other people to do that job instead uh and here is the the list of people that we that we have today it's a absolutely uh huge uh huge list of of amazing people from from

all sorts of of projects many many different rollups we have about 10 different rollup Founders on that list and we have a lot of infrastructure Builders and so what I want to do um today is basically have uh a two-part conversation in the first part I'd like to invite a lot of these these rollup Founders to talk about Native execution or or base sequencing and basically tell them why why they're excited about one or the other and if if they have plans uh for their respective rollups to become based or to uh become native and then in part two um we're going to be talking about this new initiative called fabric which is basically a way for

um to to to standardize a a minimal set of of apis and and pieces of infrastructure that are required for base War laabs to Garner a lot of network effects and then finally we're going to have vitalic just close it off with one of his ideas uh to use native and based rollups to help fund uh public uh Goods so on that note enough talking from me I'd like to open up the floor uh to to Ben our very first Speaker all right what's going on y'all can you still hear me yes cool um okay you know Justin I was a

little insulted when you said normally this call is a bunch of nerds but not this time what the hell but um in terms of attendees I meant not the speakers absolutely and I'm coming here with some slides you know so I think that's only that's only fair um and I think it's kind of necessary guys um we are definitely I don't know if y'all can feel it in the air but I think you can it is wartime and ultimately the message I want to share today is that as we think through these future improvements to ethereum we cannot sacrifice on these values but we also have to acknowledge

that it is time to make improvements in our ecosystem system um and I think that also involves a deeper than before level of collaboration between L1 and l2s so um you know it's truly an honor to be here with a bunch of Brilliant Minds working on these things I think we have to understand that l2s are the path to bring Global adoption to bring the next billion users to ethereum and obviously da is like table sticks for doing that we got to keep bumping those numbers up and I think base and Native uh rollups have a lot of promise to continue to do that um and it's not time for zero some thinking we don't have all the answers I'm going to try to give as much answers and insight as I can from the

perspective of like boots on the ground L2 um but we have to collaborate and unify like it is time okay so those are my little hype slides let's rally rally rally the troops I kind of want to talk about just two things today I know we've got a lot of uh other amazing speakers so I'll go quick but um there's basically two things I want to do here the first thing that I want to do is like sign optimism the optimism foundations like wholehearted support for these efforts like uh we need to be able to support these kind of things out of the box it's like table Stakes that Stacks like the op stack support this um but the other thing that I want to do is talk about the reality that that does not guarantee adoption of these things

product focus is what we need to do if we want to make these act things actually work and um yeah so that's the other thing I want to do is give a boots on the ground perspective Ive of what we think it takes for ethereum to succeed in these initiatives like I said the op stack needs to support these things out of the box like that is very much clear and I want to signal again strongly and loudly that this is the time to move the opos foundation is here to support with time and resources these initiatives and I ALS also really think there's a legitimate path certainly for op mainnet and probably for a lot of other super chain members to adopt um these Technologies if and when we make them the excellent products that they can be

and that is like critical we are not in a moment as a community where we can regress on our products we need to accelerate our products what does that mean we need subsec these things need to be cheap fast we need subs scent these things need to be cheap we need profitability these things need to be profitable for the ecosystem participants that are um building them and we need them to be unstoppable obviously the decentralized ethos of of ethereum is not going to go away and that's some of the key pieces that Bas the native rups bring to the table so we're all in baby but what does that actually mean what do we need to do to have a fantastic experience with base and Native rollups that's the other thing that I want to share we I you know I

spend a lot of time talking to a lot of L2 teams and hopefully I can share some insights on what we think it takes for ethereum to accelerate accelerate accelerate and make these products get adopted and push the L2 and ethereum ecosystems forward so I'll start with base rollups you know I mean in terms of why these things are important decentralize the sequencer is like one obvious M me way to say this using the eth validator set which is very decentralized is a great way to improve the ordering properties the inclusion properties of your chain um but to get more concrete I want to call out like a few of the other things that are relevant Beyond just like the meme of decentralized the sequencer um one thing that's going to that's going

to be awesome for Bas rollups is we can lower the deposit time so right now l2s basically wait uh confirmation depths to ingest L1 deposits um so they don't experience reorgs with base rollups we can do a better job of this we can get those to occur really really quickly um and not be cons as concerned about um reorgs also there's obviously the opportunity to improve the atomicity guarantees across chains and the most obvious one and probably starting point is between L1 and L2 like the ability to do atomic interaction actions or Atomic at least Atomic inclusion of transactions on l1s and l2s is really powerful and even looking beyond that I think there's space for basically cross L2 sequencer coordination to happen via um uh based sequencing so these are

awesome properties so how do they win because that's still not enough it means nothing without feature parody we need subsequent transactions this is not going to get adoption across the globe if we don't have that and I think that's basically just saying we need pre comps but it doesn't go just as far as we need the the the the transactions to be fast we need that to be reliable um and effectively I think what that translates to is like we can't just have a theoretic ability to confirm transactions in under a second we need that to be a reliable inclusion and a reliable uh uh property of the system and so basically what that means is that that look ahead for based rollups um and and pre-com is extremely important like we can't be sitting there with 5% of the

validator staked and a you know whatever percent that works out chance that you're going to get a pre-m and otherwise you're just waiting around for the next block or the next validator that um gets added to the queue another thing that I want to call out is also um that we have to think about reorgs a little bit differently in in the base context there's a lot of room for improvement in this regard um but it's important to understand that centralized sequencers when run well have very very very high uptime requirements and um we have to acknowledge that L1 does have small reorg sometimes and we're going to have to figure out a way to deal with that elegantly obviously the stacks can handle the behavior of reorgs effectively so it's not existential um on the other hand it is a risk if we suddenly get a lot more frequent reorgs

than we're otherwise um you know used to in a central context so that's kind of our take on based Roll-Ups it's like this is awesome but decentralized sequencer while a great meme cannot detract from the legitimate product strengths that we have as an ecosystem right now and this is what it means to keep those properties preserved I think the other thing that I want to really highlight is that base sequencing needs to be profitable for the users and the chains we need subset transactions like obviously da costs and scaling da is table Stakes for that um the other thing we need to acknowledge is that uh we have the uh ability with centralized sequencers and longer Force inclusion

periods to do um more amortization than we may be able to do in the base sequencing context um and we also have the opportunities to smooth a little bit more for the end users than we do um in the normal L2 context so um we need to be accounting for that and I think the other thing that we need to do is we need to understand that the me like landscape like call it the meev supply chain is evolving and I can tell you talking to a lot of teams that are considering building chains and thinking through the ordering policies of those chains that these are not a one size fits all Market there are diverse customer needs and the more customizability we can bake into the pre-commitment and um ordering rules of Base sequencing I think the better

chance we have at more and more l2s adopting them okay so that's kind of my thoughts on on base rollups um moving to Native Roll-Ups why do these things matter is to improve the security model full stop and this is critical like not only is this going to help the l2s move faster but it will also help like accelerate adoption of e like the reality is right now using bridged acids in an L2 brings a degree of multisig risk that is understandable we need to prevent hacks and it's hard to get that right but it also does mean that it is a barrier to adoption and hard Fork mediated proofs do really meaningfully improve over those existing trade-offs like we can make legitimate improvements to these security models by building native

rollups but again there's a difference between why they matter and how we make them win so to make them win we basically in our perspective need two things one thing that we need is we need that security not just to be talk we need it to be meaningful so the reality of rollups is that the execute function is just one part of L2 State transition functions put even if you put aside all the customizability and pre-c compiles which I'll talk about in a second the reality is in the op stack we call this derivation but the reality is that the state transition function of l2s has an entire other part of the scope that is kind of everything Upstream of actually executing transaction payloads it's like batch submission uh decompressing those batches and turning them into to those

payloads so we call that derivation call it what you will inboxes the point is this is also a security critical part of the path um for rollups and if we don't do it right then we'll end up having a multisig for a bunch of other security critical components and having carved out just the one execute function is less meaningful so to make it win we need to be able to ensure that native rollups can actually provide a legitimate Improvement to the security model in a way that is very very very real and I think it's possible but it's not guaranteed and then the other thing to say is that rollups Help ethereum win because we are able to innovate more quickly and Native rollups need to supercharge that Innovation not limit

that Innovation there's obviously you know a to Justin's Point there's a diversity of solutions out here and not everyone is going to be native but if we want to get native rollups truly adopted by the masses we need to be able to have a solution which does not stifle Innovation and basically regress us to a pace that's closer to L1 inov Innovation where it has to be a little bit more um conservative so that's kind of my perspective hope we didn't take up too much time but wanted to share what we feel boots on the ground is the perspective of how to make base and Native rollups win in the market place again I want to just reemphasize we are here to support this it is war time for ethereum and optimism is ready to support there I can see a line of sight the op mayet and other chains in the

super chain truly adopting both of these things but we have to get it right so let's win together thanks so much woo awesome uh Ben thank you so much for setting the stage here and for bringing in uh so much energy and enthusiasm for this and 100% agreed that we need to do it right it's not just a meme being based or being native it is about providing actual utility um and uh there's a bunch of technical issues that we all need to be working on uh together and yeah agree that it is war time and in the last two weeks is definitely been war time for me um and special thanks to all the the coordinators behind the

scenes who uh have helped uh pull this this call off next up uh we have Nick Johnson from name chain if you'd like to come to the stage hello yes H pleasure to be here I am fresh back from uh three days in Cambridge with the linear team uh with representatives from status and metam mask uh and some others and also from uh with Justin himself uh who was there to uh try and persuade us about uh based sequencing and uh Native rollups and as will come as a no no surprise to anybody on this call uh just as an

extremely persuasive person uh so uh we we deeply believe in censorship resistance and decentralization it'll be you know again no surprise to anyone who's followed the the trajectory of ens uh that we have consistently worked to improve 's decentralization and our censorship resistance and to remove human control over things you know whenever they're not necessary um which makes our our decision to move to an L2 a difficult one because up until now uh switching to an L2 is necess necessarily meant a certain amount of uh extra control over upgradeability and so forth

simply so that you can follow along with the L1 so that you can make uh upgrades and security improvements and so forth L1 l2s haven't had the same flexibility uh in terms of uh upgrade mechanisms via Forks that that uh l1's have uh all of that is changed with Native rollups which is one reason they're extremely attractive to us uh with a native rollup we can follow along with the l1's uh upgrades and improvements which at the very least reduces the need for human intervention and multisig and DOW voting in uh upgrades and Bug fixes and so forth and potentially even eliminates the need for it entirely uh so we are

extremely excited about uh Native rollups uh likewise because we care deeply about censorship resistance and uh building a incredibly decentralized system uh base rollups look extremely attractive to us as well uh it's a ground rule for launching name chain that we are going to have some form of uh you know credible forced inclusion uh and we would prefer that to be truly decentralized sequencing so uh I'm here to announce that uh name chain will either launch with based sequencing if we can uh get the cost per block for uh based sequencing to a point where it is cost effective for a chain the size of name chain or uh launch with an

intention to move to base sequencing as soon as it's viable uh furthermore uh well I wish we could launch with Native sequencing uh we sorry as a native rollup um we you know are aware how long L1 hard Forks take so our most likely route will be we will launch and then as soon as native sequencing is available we will be aiming to to Pivot to that uh all of this the full support of the amazing team at linear um so you can count us uh based pilled and and Native pill and enthusiastically on board with all of this thank you Justin wow thank you Nick uh thank you for uh sharing this publicly um it's a a fantastic uh uh to have you on board and

I think uh Bas sequencing in particular is an especially good fit for name chain because name chain does not require pre-confirmation and so all almost all of the complexity of B sequencing stems from pre- confirmations and so hopefully it will be an easy path to uh to get them chain uh to to launch from day one with uh with base sequencing but I I totally hear your points around cost and uh this is something that we will discuss in the fabric section around having network effects where we can share blobs and share uh data compression and things like that thanks again Nick um next up uh we have Jesse Pollock from base Jesse the floor is

yours hey everybody it's Jesse um super excited to be here I am the creator of Base uh I want to share three things that I'm thinking about that are super top of mind for me um and for those who don't know basis ethereum L2 uh you know yesterday we did something like 130 transactions a second um we're seeing a lot of growth in the ecosystem um and uh we're excited about continuing to push this forward the the three things that are top of mind for me of course starting with the the based in Native rollups I think we're really excited about the progress that's being made on the research side and the technology side um in particular uh with the kind of like native execute function it feels like it's both a flexible and

Powerful tool that we're going to be able to use for base uh to make it more connected to ethereum uh and increase the security guarantees that it provides on the Bas side I'm really excited about the interoperability uh that it can give to other l2s um also about the decentralization that it potentially provides but I'll also Echo um Ben's question or not question but the opportunity with based around thinking through how do we um kind of make the value share between the l2s and the L1 um productive and supportive of kind of profitability on both sides of the ecosystem because I think that's what's going to lead to kind of a sustainable equilibrium in the long term so that's my high level thought on um based and Native the second thing is that I really want to emphasize that we are in a

moment of flection uh and the world is starting to come onchain at a faster and faster rate and right now we are not well positioned to capture that demand we are planning to do a 2X increase in blobs uh in the upcoming pectra Fork uh but when we're looking at the demand coming on chain and we're looking at the Timeline to the next increase in capacity it's too long what we're projecting on the base side is something like a 10 to 20x increase in demand this year and with the current timelines for increasing blobs we're going to get priced out we're not going to actually have the capacity to serve those users and that's a really big problem and uh I think I just want to emphasize that um

this needs to be solved if we want ethereum and base and and other l2s to be the center of the onchain economy and so there's urgency in scaling the L1 and the L2 and providing more blobs and making it so that we can actually serve all of these customers who are coming on on chain so that's the second thing and then the third thing is um I love that we're having this call I love that we're bringing everyone together and I also want to remind us that the only thing that matters is delivering products to customers that they love if we don't do that none of this stuff matters and I think candidly right now there's still a ton of opportunity to do that better and when you look

around the whole crypto ecosystem there's actually folks who are leaning into shipping apps every single day uh making it possible for new users to come on chain really seamless experiences and I think that energy of thinking from a user perspective first and foremost and figuring out how do we deliver products that everyday people everyday businesses everyday creators everyday consumers actually want to use that's the missing piece that we need to keep building the muscle for because if we can do that everything else over time will take care of itself and so those are really my three messages it's excitement about based and Native it's urgency around scaling blobs and making sure that we

can actually keep up with the capacity that's coming online right now and then it's a call to action for every single person on this call to not lose sight of the user not lose sight of the person who's trying to use this new global economy and right now doesn't have the tools the products that make it easy and if we we can solve those three problems I think we have a really really bright future ahead of us but we have a lot of work to do and it's going to require all of us buckling down over the next year to deliver it and make it happen so thanks for having me on the call and super excited to see what we do in the the months and years ahead awesome thank you so much Jesse and totally agreed that you know just

because we're making progress on one thing doesn't mean we to starve the attention and not make progress on all of the other things and one of the huge priorities and as an ecosystem is to increase uh da um you know go talk to Franchesco go talk to danat go talk to V go talk to all of the the devs uh that are building out these these these systems um and uh you know help coordinate one of the things that I mentioned is that we're we're we're bottleneck on coordination we have so many moving Parts our ecosystem is so rich and diverse uh that we need um coordinators and um you know I I'm trying to help with that by hiring a couple of coordinators and hopefully we

can switch to the next gear and um and scale things as much as the there is demand and I just want to highlight a message from DC builder of of of world chain he said same thing for World chain we're going to increase uh data usage by 10 to 20x um so wholeheartedly agree uh Jesse let's work in parallel and have separate War rooms U the da war room is not my war room but there will be a war room for da uh and I'm I'm very optimistic about that as well thank you Jesse um next up we have uh toas uh from nevermind uh who is working on

surge welcome toas uh hi everyone great to see all the familiar faces all the new faces um new for me probably so uh definitely n mind is uh always happy to support all the initiatives in ethereum give space for researchers for developers to always feel that there is the engineering team that will buildt with them together uh to feel that there is a lot of acceleration in ethereum that it never feels like just because of the lack of engineering acceleration we have to stop some initiatives and um based base rollups and the native rollups so this is all what we are super

excited about I'll be helping to to build to standardize to explore with uh so surge is one of our initiatives it's for building the template for base rollups that uh our customers will be will be able to use uh that will help our customers to to deploy Enterprise Solutions with to deploy uh fun Solutions with we ourselves will be experimenting with uh with surge and with base rollups and uh with fabric as well so uh all of this is still to to also bring ethereum to experimentations on agentic space like agentic AI I think that we're talking a lot about users we also talk about uh agents very soon and I think we cared a lot about ethereum

being seeing that the trups can come with with ethereum token as say like with ether as the main currency there burning ether be super aligned uh we are super excited to actually think that we can take all the experience of building with different uh layer twos uh we built with with Stark net we built with noses Lena we built with a flashboard steam on me we support base we support Optimus in NE mind client uh and obviously in search we we based everything on the Tao code base and Tao ideas from the on the base rollups uh so so we love to continue all

of this to come with all this experience uh to help teams think about how to standardize it how to accelerate it because I think that many of us when we think standardize we start to fill it doesn't mean accelerate but never mind always felt that it's all about accelerating ethereum uh to more usage more users uh more friendly packaging more friendly for users but also for those Enterprise users that need to feel that there is support stability and uh and that they feel welcome in the ethereum ecosystem they can bring big money so more money flows so actually more users can feel like there's always liquidity there's um always someone that cares about security and then the entire chain feels permissionless open secure uh and we have that collaborative Spirit

from developers Engineers from users uh so yeah I feel it will be great experience to work together on this initiative uh like many others in ethereum space and P rollup feels super aligned native rups feel super in line but also like forward experimentation looking um even like not experimentation but I I feel simply that it's it's very very obvious Direction one of manyy but this one is very obvious and the one is worth supporting so super happy to work with everyone thanks amazing thank you toas and I guess this is a good contrast with bass right where Jesse was emphasizing all of

the users and the applications and you're emphasizing the infrastructure You're Building surge as a technology template to show the world how to build these based and Native rollups uh and I guess never mind as a consultancy is is here to help and and and they'll have a lot of expertise that they can they can share on that topic um thank you so much toas next up uh we have Steven um now unfortunately uh it's Shabbat right now so Steven couldn't make it in person but he has left a video recording or voice recording uh which which I haven't yet heard uh but hopefully we'll be able to to play it uh to the to the

audience Stephen from arbitrum uh Drew do you think we can we can play it yeah let me try this it's it's not me it's hey everyone hey everyone it's so great to be here today although I guess I'm technically not here but thank you so much to Justin for giving me the opportunity to share my thoughts in this format and we are joined here Live Today by other members of my team at offchain Labs who can definitely answer any questions about our thoughts on these really important issues on these really important issues and also uh participate in any follow-up discussions so uh anyway let me start with sharing my thoughts I want to actually um you know reflect on vitalic blog post from this morning which I thought was really

really fantastic and set up this um you know the stage for this tension between these really two important goals in the ethereum ecosystem on the one hand is the desire or maybe actually even more than the desire the the real real need uh for us to have an ethereum together that that the L1 together with all of its l2s feels like a single unified environment and the other hand though is embracing the diversity of ethereum developers researchers and users um and embracing The Innovation and experimentation that has come you know from that if you look at ethereum ethereum has dozens of core development teams ac across the different layers uh dependent teams independently funded teams and no other ecosystem can say

this and um you know I think that's something that's really really important and really value as well and I think that's actually if I had to pick one thing that makes the ethereum community unique it is that diversity um that we have and we never want to lose that and and why why would we lose that well there is a tension here because if you only had a single development team or a single development uh spec or even a single implementation it becomes a lot easier to think about unification and that's what the talic call uh the shortcut way you know where ethereum can just sort of take over uh and build uh scaling in the L1 but I think we lose a lot by doing that you know if you look at ethereum Innovation on the execution layer uh over the years obviously the

evm and solidity came from the ethereum community but so did other Innovations like starkware Cairo like fuels fuel VM like the FH VM uh from the Phoenix team and like our very own uh stylus arbit stylist is the VM that allows you to WR smart contracts in rough and c and C++ so how do we uh build interoperability but also not stifle Innovation and not um you know ENC discourage people from experimenting and trying new and different things and I think the core answer is really working together and coordinating so the very fact that we're here on this call today trying to figure out these issues is um extremely extremely important and then it's you know some of these are technical you

know Concrete technical steps that we can take like chain specific addresses is a really really good one but others are just the commitment to coordinate and find that shared ground and that Common Core that we can work together on and have that desire to build interoperable um ecosystems with one another I think that uh communication and that coordination is really really important so how does it uh connect to sh to uh Native rups well to be honest um a day or two ago or up until a day or two ago I was pretty bearish on the idea of native rollups because my understanding was that you know it was very binary that if you wanted to participate in this you have to basically say we are going only to be you know ethereum equivalent and sign on

to this particular Tech stack and and was stif that Innovation which again I do think might make interrupt easier in the short run but I don't think is a um a good trade-off in the long run if we want that Innovation but you know vitalic in the post really spoke about this extendable version this expandable version which I think is absolutely fantastic where you know the way I understand now um and I think is a fantastic vision is a native rollup is US finding that Common Ground us saying hey let's not all reinvent the wheel let's not all reimplement you know the same features and slightly different way so we just create a you know redundant work but also B um difficulty in trying to connect these components afterwards let's find that Common Ground let's like Factor it out like we factor out so you

know software and code let's Factor it out and let's you know say we can agree on this shared standard even this shared implementation and even better get layer One support for these features that we all need and figuring out what that core and that nucleus is is going to be an important problem but that and some may stop there some may say okay that's all that I need all I want is those core features but other rollups may say we want to innovate on top of that we want to as metalic said bring our own provs to uh you know do the DI on top of that and that to me is a really uh fantastic Vision how can we work together to find those Common Core features um and build a native rollup as you will that has that core that we can all use and build

on top of now I do think um it's a fantastic Vision but it's also early in the research phase to me I have a lot of questions that I think we all probably need to work together to answer which is how do we build this how do we build it in a way that's uh useful uh and advantages and certainly doesn't disadvantage you know any current uh rollup teams how do we build it in a way that we can all get behind it and it works with all of our Tex acts I think these are uh important research questions and I'm very very excited uh for them and excited for this direction um and how how do we actually you know turn this Vision into reality is something we're going to have to work very uh hard to do and we at option and labs are very excited uh to contribute

to to This research research in this direction because ultimately I think despite our differences every single person on this call today wants ethereum to win wants ethereum to continue to be the dominant and best layer one execution environment for smart contracts for building rollups uh and for all blockchain applications and I think that that core shared belief is going to uh Empower us to work together to say how do we find that common ground and uh you know working together on researching and understanding and building a native rollup spec that we can all benefit from um to me would be a fantastic Endeavor so thank you all again for uh listening to me today and excited to hear all the great things

that come out of this call amazing uh thank you so much Stephen uh that was recorded message uh it was not Drew speaking it was uh Drew is just helping out with the with the recording and yes I I wholeheartedly agree that um you know we need to to cherish uh and celebrate the diversity that a fir has and we should try and incorporate it uh in things like the like the precompile um there's ways to have customer custom ability around the pre-compile you can have your custom sequencers your custom fee tokens governance tokens public goods funding and there's also opportunities to um potentially extend the evm so one idea

if we go down the route of ZK risk 5 is to expose risk 5 as a virtual machine and then you can start writing your custom pre- compiles in Risk 5 uh and yet another idea is to have some sort of a hook where when you hit a pre-compile that is not understood by DVM you somehow fall back to a different proof system a different fraud game whatever it is that's specified by the application uh and that might be one way to take um you know Arbitron which is currently not evm equivalent because of stylus because of of wasm and and and have them gracely gracefully fall within the framework of of of native rabs thank you again Stephen for your

recorded message um next up uh we have Hayden now unfortunately Hayden uh got sick recently has the flu um and I don't want to put uh words in in his mouth but uh one thing I I I I will say is that uh I actually spent several days with him uh not not long ago and uh he from my perspective he was extremely enthusiastic about uh Native rollups and I think the reason and you know this is me speaking not him speaking is that you know he wants maximum immutability and security if you look at Unis swap today it's essentially governance free from the user perspective like there's this

one switch the the famous fee switch uh which is under some sort of of governance control but everything else is essentially fully immutable and so this notion of native rollups I think is is super exciting for for Hayden and he seemed to suggest but again I'd like to invite him maybe to the next call to discuss this uh that he he'd like to contribute you know intellectually uh with resources with capital whatever it is to help accelerate this and I think he would agree as well with the the theme of today's uh presentations is that you know we are in war mode like we are um shifting gears and and and and and moving much faster now one thing

that I do want to highlight about uh unich chain is that while it might become native I don't think it will ever become based and the reason is that um uni chain is is a deck and like one of the key Innovations is to try and uh extract the meev from Arbitrage and give it back to LPS and in order to do that you need to move away from the base model so if you have an extremely good reason for moving away from base sequencing then go ahead by all means um and uh this is uh what uni chain is doing and uh it's super exciting to see um okay um next up after aeden who un couldn't make it is fed from Lambda

class fed the floor is yours hi um I'm fed from Lambda uh for those that don't know us it's a startup Studio that has been working in crypto since 2017 on we're very etherum focused because we like a lot that eum is a protocol or not a company uh we already own companies so we we love uh the focus of theum in decentralization on being Community oriented so for the last three years with Lambda we have been building many of the main Al with our partners our um main focus until recently was on ZK elus um I'm pretty happy uh introduction you did

Justin because one of the things that happens is that I have a very good relationship with many of the cosos and CTO of this alus we have been working with on I was worried of what would happen if um we move if like the new rollups become based native what would happen with the previous one so I think it's a very good idea to present it as you did a team provides a different different amount of services um rollups can choose which of those Services they can use uh I think it's very important that we don't alienate on we continue supporting everybody that chose choose uh ethereum uh in on on I mean like that's the core idea of ethereum like it's a place for everyone and we have to support the different use cases and the

different things that that everyone wants to do with the T so uh a year ago uh thanks to Team B support on the Y we started working um they were super open we had a lot of questions we started working on our uh consensus client it was more like an MVP for us to learn uh we did it with two people on in six months we got something working uh because it was not a business thing it was more like for for research on learning it took us a little bit more on last week we managed to uh be live uh on on heski without any big issues and it's something we build with only two Engineers during the course of a year six months ago for business reasons we started creating a minimal L1 execution

client uh that from our point of view will be very interesting it add different things that many of the clients that exist nowadays uh don't focus on uh it's uh already snap thinking uh if I'm not wrong with with hu uh on we're proving it to for del2 with different risk 5 PM like sp1 on risk zero on two months ago we started working with Drew and comit boost we're super happy to have been included uh on that effort uh thanks Justin for introducing us to Drew it has been an amazing experience to learn more uh about theum internals on to accelerate theum so related to this talk a few months ago I shared with the community

on on X or Twitter that we will create a an ALU called Rogue uh cor idea of Rogue it's a it is chel2 that has no VCS no team allocation has a fur lunch for everyone from my point of view uh it's very close to how Bitcoin on etherum started from I'm not interested in creating a company of the frogue it's the other way around like uh we want it to be Community owned uh in the long term I hope not to be not to have any access to the uh verifier we want to create a council of people that that manage that we want to create something that is bigger that our company on on it's not a product it's more like uh completely decentralized to and that's

why for it being it based on Al native is going to be super useful like since I read about Bas rollups for me it clicked in two seconds that that's what we wanted we wanted the interupt on the ability to uh have full decentralization since the project is not going to be managed by a team we want it to like be it should be live all time all time around uh on one of the core premises of Rogue it in some way in this sense it's a little bit closer to bitcoin is that the tokens are mined by the proving you have to prove it real time on the tokens get generated um every eum block on whoever submits the the there there will be either an auction or either it will be

the first person meeting uh approve of the um of of the block of the al2 will get the tokens so that's one one of the rollups that we're doing the second one that I have never spoken so much I will do today uh I did tell I think this suggestion to balic at some point we're working with different I am I am from Argentina uh our like we're we exist thanks to ethereum eum has clear product Market fit we pay our employees we pay our partners thanks to um ethereum on stable coins uh we wouldn't exist without ethereum that's something that uh in many people that come from Europe or the US don't realize on on that on

it's that many of these developers and Engineers all around the world exist or their companies exist thanks to the payment systems that theum enabled so uh we're working since we're from an Emerging Market were pretty well connected culturally with different Emerging Markets across Africa um Central Asia on on southeast Asia and we have been talking and I have been traveling a lot with different countries governments that are um very interested in obviously in doctrines on on rollups on one of the cool things they kept on telling me was that they they were worried that centralized rollups would be an issue so they really like ZK they really like AUM for them on tax I had uh

it's obvious that um AUM is the most decentralized on Fair uh community on on blockchain but something like Bas was missing so it wrecks the client we created for rogue is going to be used for these uh different uh nationalwide initiatives on I cannot share too much for now but hopefully in the next few weeks or months I will be able to share more so those are the two places where we hope to use for sure base RS and very likely to the native feature amazing thank you so much F and I I didn't realize that you were building a second uh based rollup um and the neutrality aspect really um you know

resonates with another thing that I've heard is that if we're going to bring you know nation states and institutions and you know big money think trillions of dollars tens of trillions of dollars we can't have these security councils we just can't have bugs uh we can't have a governance that can just steal everything uh with you know low Economic Security we need to have this like strong trustless um you world security or World War II cre security and um I'm hoping that um you know we can basically extend all the properties of the L1 to the l2s and have these l2s uh really Blossom with with full security uh fed thank you so much

uh for for for taking the stage our final uh speaker in this first section is yeah from uh scroll yeah the the yours sure um thank thanks for introduction and glad to be here uh I'm I'm yeah of scroll um so for those who have a scroll scroll is a layer to solution and they like you know with full event compatibility uh running production um for over a year um so and for us like Bas sequencing is like a important way like our view is that it's an important way to stay in the same economic zone with ethereum and uh because we realize that you know even for lot of applications like even for mem coins and having direct access to a very deep liquidity pool is very very

powerful and it's important to have some level of interal B one and clearly base sequencing has potential to provide some some guarantee for that um and there may be some kind of really good regulation hedge to kind of like make the sequencing become more permissionless um but also like we are because we have been running for over a year so we are very very practical and about like where we are and like you know how we can you know like uh together to to kind of use a more programmatic way to to get there so I think there are some like you know problems which we identify for base sequency and the thing is like uh fragmentation stuff the fragmentation I'm not not talking about like you know liquidity fragmentation or like you know

different you know that like different layer to fragmentation but I'm talking about fragmentation in term of like design philosophy because like you know people's perception for Layer Two is like oh op like optimism based or like AR just optimiz Z op but if you look into detail like they are like their design philosophy is very very different like how the reor happens and whether you reor with whether this layer to reor with L or not whether you use you know like for Z with state for row data and some bridge design foring choices and some derivation function so it's it's actually like different law framework really different a lot like it's not like you can category as it's just a layer tool with you know op or dek it's just like the proof system is just one part but the framework actually matters

a lot so the fragmentation will creates a lot of problem on like how those different like RS can interrupt with each other um so so I think that's one big problem if we really want to unify this effort to create a less fragmented future so that's one thing and also that's why like you know I think I talked with Justin like months ago uh you know we need to have at least a shared high level design philosophy if you want to have anything like unified I'm not talking about spec or implantation but at least some high level alignment on like you know layer Toth Behavior under certain situation that will be you know great to create a more unified uh work and second thing on Bas Rob like the share infra um share blobs proofs and like you know so it's it's it's and right now it's very costly

so we actually need to have those kind of like Network you know if um those infra and network effect build to kind of be practical enough to launch a Bas ROP um so from our view like uh like you know with with all all those concerns uh like I mentioned want to support some research on the share stack and maybe like if there are some value aligned teams who want to kind of build on top of scroll SDK to make that a base happy to support that effort um but that's our that's our current stand like you know like stand Point like the first thing is like trying to align and support this effort on this kind of shared philosophy and then if there are some other teams who want to kind of work around like you know SC SDK to make that become based we

are happy to support that and then like scr Manet like you know we we will see like whe whether B will really become practical enough um to kind of like but we are open to become based but it's actually need to work and work super well in practice because right now like you know scaling and like you know the the product and user still matters more so that's for B sequencing um and second for n um it's always a super interesting idea and like it's super ideal for or to remove the multi which I think Solana and other people complain about like it's a multi and like it's it's not secure um however again like we are also realistic about where we are so there are like still some hurdles like you know really fast they give improver and how you handle like you know deposit and

other type of transactions that are not part of the evm St transation but part of the r of St transation and the St transation function and gas modeling so they are like some of the the hurdles um and also like I actually agree with with what Stephen mentioned like Rob eventually need to go ahead move faster in term of adding new features AA and maybe EF and and and something like that so I think U so they have some kind of idea of how you can potentially do both like in na RO with other stuff but we want to see like you know how that can happen but before that we will um like to support this effort we will like keep working on like real time proving with the KVM to kind of like support this back this up um but uh like you know we

were right now like we are focusing on like you know performance and tons of new features to massively improve the ux and depth for for user and developers um so that's our angle and in upcoming upgrade like we we also like basically I think we are the first one probably like you know moving from a very CVM and coming to moving to a more generic zvm uh we have build the first version with with axum called open VM and to kind of Accel this effort and we believe like you know we we have like the the potential like you know it can become the the fastest and and the F first one to become like real time really real time proving for Lon block to make you know based or like you know native Ro happen um and in in and also like in the

upcoming upgrade we will become even more compatible with the ler one by upgrading our mer potential tree initially we used to be a type two with zk3 but we will upgrade to the same as layer one the MPT and also zvm to like unblock the the last hurdle to kind of you know to a lot of new features so yeah that's basically where we are and U yeah excited to be here yeah thank you so much J um I want to highlight a couple of things that you said one which you said very much in passing was a legal hedge um and the reason I want to highlight it is that behind closed doors a lot of teams tell me about this that they are worried about the security commit or their governance being some sort of a

legal attack Point um and teams members they don't want to go to prison they don't want to be fine they don't want to be in court for you know years and years and years uh fighting fighting these battles uh and so from that perspective I think base sequencing and Native rollups gives them this kind of legal hedge This legal uh peace of mind the other thing that I wanted to highlight that really resonated with me is this idea of homogenity right if we have completely unstandardized Innovation then we'll have this combinatorial explo explosion of of possibilities and it becomes like that much harder to to abstract everything away so um you know

one way to come to standards is to pick shelling points and you know for these shelling points to be really really strong credible neutrality is is something that that really helps with the coordination and as such base sequencing and and Native execution if anything they're just like extremely credibly neutral shelling points and so they will help remove uh that uh that complexity and so maybe they're not in addition to being valuable in and of itself from a utilitarian perspective there's also this meta utility in the sense that they act as a as a shining point and yeah I think this is a fantastic uh transition to the to the next section because part two of this

call is about fabric it's all about coming um to uh to convergence around a minimal set uh of of Standards uh and I'd like to invite uh Drew to present uh his latest project uh fabrick thanks Justin and everyone uh for for listening yeah um Drew have been working on a public good called commit boost for the last year and before I get into fabric uh in no way am I stepping away from commit boost I'll still be probably annoyingly peing majority of you on the call to to help support or test and a variety of things so this is really just an extension of that and and using the sort of uh um construction we've got together around K boost to to work on other projects uh which is

fabric um it stands for fabric to accelerate based roll of infrastructure and connectivity and really I want to highlight up front before we talk about why the timing is right um what it is uh what we've already got done where we're headed just want to highlight fabric is not revolutionary idea it's just an evolution of a lot of work that tons of teams on this call have done and the idea and the reason we picked the name fabric is it's really just a shelling Point uh to coordinate and hopefully help stitch together uh some of the fragmentation we see they're lurking or already out there in ethereum and really poor and accelerant on on the coordinate effort to to align a lot of these things that teams have already highlighted uh you know unced by me uh but uh why the

time is now for fabric we've seen two things take place and really this has been through conversations since changai but l2s uh they've been working for years flourishing uh almost the hitting capacity uh but they are as you've seen on this call starting to lean towards potentially being based as long as the infrastructure is built right and there's there's a benefit and so that's one side of it the other side is there are a lot of teams that have been working on based Roll-Ups for the last year I see in the chat there's you know some teams that have just been hyperfocused on all this and what that's allowed for is us to get to a place where we have some understanding of how we're going to invent this and potential places where we can agree to standardize where it benefits not only the teams

building these things but the overall ethereum ecosystem um and you know we have two base rups already in production today so we've learned a lot just from that uh the other thing is over the last week and a half we've started introducing this concept and there is this strong General consensus that and you you've heard it on this call that you there needs to be an effort like this under the right parameters and threading that needle will be a bit difficult but that's what we're hoping to help uh accelerate um and so what is fabric uh it's four parts uh mostly coordination some development but it it's a coordination to fill the Gap where public goods and standardization across the base stack makes sense and the idea here is to get folks in a room

that are key stakeholders for this and get them to agree on a handful of items that they think should be standardized and can be standardized and get them to agree to build their road maps around that as this progresses and so that's uh the component we work on but we're also going to have developer resources now the point of the development is just minimal viable implementations of these standards uh to serve as a reference we don't plan to ship a rollup or a framework it's just minimal viable implementations the idea is uh you know we can work with I'll just pick on yay because he talked last but we could work with scroll and they could have you know they'll pay you know have some some of their team or pay someone to build like a production ready implementation using the framework or using fabric as

reference implementation so we in no way want what we're doing to to go into production but teams to build around that um and so that's that's the main focus areas of what fabric is what's already been done uh I'm announced maybe a lot of folks on this call but there has already been efforts that are important to base sequencing that are already are getting standardized and this is the universal registry contract uh which is out there teams are working on implenting and providing feedback and then there's an extension to the PBS pipeline to support pre-ms that's been worked on and agreed on uh by a bunch of teams teams are already working on that in implementation and of course there's a side card to allow validators to issue pre- comps um called commit boost which is um getting run in production and and getting supported um so there's already

those things and then the other thing I'll say is we've had conversations with folks uh 20 plus teams have said they'll contribute to fabric and are willing to be part of this that's its own uh shelling point in itself so what's next uh many of you seen the notion doc we got together we wanted to wait till after this call to publish it on E research but that's coming uh we wanted to get all the feedback we could before we um create the conical uh post around that and then we'll start meeting with teams to get their views on where do we think we can standardize and then get everyone together and say hey this is what we found these are you know the handful of items we think we can execute on and then we'll have some some code probably ready by then too to get people to start

responding to so uh that's a little bit about frabic hopefully you'll learn more about it and and the different teams and how they're involved on the following talks but appreciate everyone's time and I'm super excited to to help push this forward Drew thank you so much uh for presenting Fabric and and uh I think everyone here on this call agrees that there needs to be some sort of credibly neutral entity that will do the coordination and uh it's fantastic that we have you know drew that is like extremely credibly neutral outside of the eeran foundation uh he has this not for-profit uh entity that I believe he has set up uh he has no association with you know any of the L2 or anything like

that um I think he just wants to help ifm win in the most uh incredibly neutral uh way possible um fantastic next up we have um Matthew edlin so um very similar to Steven unfortunately Matthew couldn't make it in person and the reason is that he's at school uh and actually I think he's taking exams right now uh Matthew's 17 he's still at school uh and so he left a a recorded message for us uh which uh we'll hear very shortly again this is Matthew not Drew hello everyone I'm Matthew or M team and I'm the co-founder Chief product officer and head of strategy as fire laabs fire

is building a base rollup stack which we call the based stack with support for Next Generation composability sensitive resistance and pre off integration feutures technically we are a for of the op sack with major modifications to sequencing finality and the op node software we are live on internal DEET today and plan to be ready from mayet with limited features in early Q2 throughout the rest of the year we plan to focus our efforts on te proving Advanced composability designs blob sharing Shar settlement Shar deposits and robust and send of compatible sequence or election our goal by the end of the year is to offer synchronous Atomic cross-chain contract calls between a Bas layer 2 and ethereum mainnet all with a seamless developer experience we are especially excited about base sequencing because of its

potential to enable synchronous composability through coordinated sequencing with layer one me boost block Builders all without sacrificing a fast user experience our other product is called a pre-offer and serves as a RPC abstraction layer for easy user and well integration with pre-ops across chains you can read more about the Bas stack and the pre-f rou at Spire dodev personally I'm coordinating the native rollup calls and working on educational and pilling resources to encourage the development of native rups and encourage a layer one hard Fork that includes an execution engine op code as soon as possible Spire is devoting developer hours to researching native rollups and how they can work with base rollups as well called ultrasound rollups and we plan to be ready for with Native rups as soon as ethereum

upgrades to support them we believe that a unified set of standards for the development of based rups will lead to Greater efficiency in development timelines ultimately bring down cost for users and establish a composability zone that includes a diverse set of execution environments that is why we are excited to announce our support for the fabric effort and Our intention to lead standardization efforts like using the Bas STX code as a reference reference implementation for the fabric repo and we are also excited to announce that we will fully open source the base stack by February 28th thank you wow I hadn't listened to this message um and uh yeah super exciting that they're open sourcing this is a team that has really hyperfocused on on

base sequencing um and um you know they've done all of this work modifying the op stack and you know now we have multiple uh you know players from the the super chain that are considering base sequencing and so maybe you know we can all as an ecosystem make use of of of this work uh and learn from it as soon as it's it's open sourced um and again like Spire just like many other teams are gathering so much technical expertise to actually pull this off uh they're not building applications themselves they are technology providers thank you Matthew again and uh great to see you in the chat uh listening uh while you're at school um next up uh we have

Daniel Wang from Tao hey's asking hey everyone can you hear me yes all right um yeah so I'm uh one of the co-founders and the CEO from Tao but I serve actually like a c in in tle because I read code um Justin I want to thank you uh for for giving this technology a name and researching in it and you know presenting the the idea in conferences is um so um a big F I thank you for all the effort to bring base roll up as like one of toot topics uh in in etherum ecosystem uh uh we we launched Tao mayet

uh in last May so we learned a lot from the um you know from the midnight launch uh there are still a lot of issues to be solved um is far from being perfect uh we know that so we started to work with PS um we we work with nine for pre-confirmation and also thanks to you Justin for researching in Pre confirmation uh so we have something uh to to to you know to guide us um we also work with GAA for pre for pre-confirmation previously we thought we need two different solutions but gradually those Solutions merge into one um we have also just formed a partnership with open

zaping and we want to build a a better rollup solution so we don't have a name for it yet so next month we are going to come together to brainstorm face to face to uh to set up to start this new project so you know both teams open Zing and us and even n man they they're also interested so we're all willing to I cannot speak further but I'm speaking for Tiger we are willing to contribute to the fibr project to follow uh standards to to make sure you know we can divide and conquer conquer other other problems rather than like working on something ourself to offer the whole solution um yeah so so that's something I want to

share another thing I want to share is is a challenge that we are we are facing and I think it prop Foundation researchers should uh should have a governance uh like like a work workshop or something uh a for a task uh task force to make sure you we can only we can just research in base roll up technology we don't want to own the governance stat we don't want to have different you know dos to govern different uh Base Road laabs um this is something that should be offered as a like a common service we're happy to give control give ownership back to a doll sponsored or supported by Ether

Foundation uh or L by all of us we don't want to govern it ourselves because if we control the do if the do is not designed well if the doll is not good enough then the rollup it probably is not good enough for for the long run so that's something I want to share so maybe um new rollup mean that they don't have to worry about this um because I I think the the native rollup may come later much later in production um I think that's everything I want to share thanks thank you Daniel um and yeah I guess Tao is like one of two projects where you know the rubber really meets the road because they are live on mainnet they're learning a lot every single day every

single week uh and they're partnering with all sorts of of people with with expertise um which is which is great to hear there's the the nine team uh and this this this new uh Team on the Block open Zeppelin that is uh also helping out Tao which is great to hear uh and I totally hear you know your your your concern to to not have ownership over infrastructure needlessly because ownership is liability and really you want this ownership to be uh in the hands of some sort of a credibly neutral uh institution and in some sense I think this is what uh Drew is is partially trying to achieve with with fabric thank

you so much Daniel next up we have Kuby from gataka hey everyone um I'm Kuby from gataka so we are um an infrastructure Builder mainly focused around L1 block production at least historically um and we have been excited about uh base pre confirmations for a while now um specifically because it just has the promise of better ux and response times that outperform like high performing ecosystems like Solana and doing this while leveraging in the one proposers um is just super exciting to us and um also more recently native rollups um thanks

Justin um obviously better security but specifically also in the context of sequencing um it it just vastly simplifies synchronous composability um so historically or we've basically been contributing to this collaborative effort across multiple teams to make based sequencing a reality for over a year now um back in Zubin we hosted one of the devet to um Helder at ECC to like working with a lot of teams to actually land the First pre-confirmation on mainnet um we have been one of the contributors to commit boost um we have been part of this larger standardization effort to essentially come to an agreement of what the L1 block

production pipeline needs to look like in order to make pre-confirmation a reality and more recently also um working with a bunch of warlocks um to think about a practical road map and steps uh in order to transition to become base if you're already operating at scale um we actually be um releasing a research post next week um all of that to say we have been contributing a lot to the pre-confirmation movement in the past because we think it's very important and very supportive of fabric because um as the movement is getting a lot more momentum there's uh even more of a need to have a better coordination and that's the only way we actually can

make it a reality so very much supportive of fabric overall and also very committed to keep contributing to make it a reality thank you Kuby and for those who don't know by the way uh you know gataka is the entity behind the Titan Builder one of the very top Builders they have a ton of expertise in the muv pipeline they know it inside out um and this is super helpful in the context of basic quencing because you're getting your hands dirty immediately with the with the me uh pipeline um another thing that I wanted to highlight uh which could be hinted at is this incremental strategy to get incumbent uh rollups with centralized sequences to

gradually uh you know have a pathway towards towards decentralization and potentially base sequencing and long story short the way that I see it is that it's a a two-step process step number one is that you add pre-confirmation to the centralized sequencer so if you take a you know project like base they have a 2C slot time that's actually a long slot time um and what you can do is have the centralized sequencer make promises about transactions that they will include in their slot when the slot boundary comes along um and just like base you know is incrementally uh increasing the gas limit every single week they could

incrementally every week just reduce the the ux uh latency and ultimately you can bring it down to one ping time plus a little bit and I think this little bit is on the order of 10 milliseconds uh so if you compare that to Solana which has these 400 millisecond tick durations it's about you know 40x smaller tick durations uh that that we can achieve on on ethereum which is super super exciting and once we've der risked these pre-confirmation and we have Integrations with wallets and we can do tip pricing and all of these things then it's forward compatible uh with decentralized sequencing and in particular base sequencing which has

these really slot long slot durations of 12 seconds but it doesn't matter that they're 12 seconds because from a ux standpoint it's ping latency plus 10 milliseconds um and so the user doesn't even realize that the slot duration is 12 seconds Q thank you so much uh for for presenting this uh next up we have uh Amir from puffer hi thank you Justin uh for organizing the call uh Amir the CEO at puffer um really puffer right now has three products that are alive one is this what we call today LRT but I really like to call it like an e derivative product that uh provides yield for users

and also we have uh been working on on puffer UniFi uh a rollup a based rollup SDK stack that is uh going to be used across many like uh future rollups based rollups or apps that are like preferring to become a rollup also we working on UniFi AVS which is a precon ABS providing economic security for this precon network actually collaborating with kie and Lorenzo uh I like the name that you guys put uh instead of Titan but yes like collaborating with them on that effort as well what what I'd like to talk about here since we're in the social call um I'd like to more talk about a story of how puffer became this like you guys might wonder

like puffer when we started we we were not this and probably paint a picture of like how this journey ended up making us move to this direction um we in when we started like nobody was talking really about blob space uh it was like the company started like two or three years ago the initial concerns were more about the economic side of things about the calization issue on ethereum so we moved to actually provide better permissionless opportunity for anyone to run a node on ethereum more efficiently with less eth U and later extended it to actually tap into aan layer to provide these valuators uh more uh yield once we scaled we moved to bigger scale we were planning to actually adhering to the

rollup Centric road map and also provide more efficient user experience for our users when we were trying to choose a rollup at that time or point there was no dominant rollup we were sort of confused uh which rollup are we going to pick with um in this journey like it was like this there was internet 1.0 which was ethereum and there were like eight other internet 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 and we were sort of like confused which one to pick because uh internet 1.4 told us if you picked us you have no way to then go to internet 1.3 if you want to go there we have this sort of M Messengers which are centralized Bridges kind of like Smugglers they can only bring messages there and you have to trust them to

bring the messages there it was nonideal for us that's where Justin like talk about like Bas stroll UPS was uh very compelling to us and we thought that was almost a no-brainer to create uh an infrastructure that all of these versions of Internet which are rollups or l2s can uh talk to each other can interoperate so we started an effort to focus more on Bas rollups started like more development currently uh puffer unify is a fork of Tao stack shout out to the Tao folks who actually like delivered the first roll up um we worked on a little bit of improvements around it uh including we just worked on a te prover that works based on

TDX We Believe to get to realtime proving maybe ZK uh can be come faster in the future years but realtime proving can be done more pragmatically if let's say we use multi-te manufacturer uh multi proofers this can take away the manufacturer issue or the trust at least bringing us closer to this realtime proving system that's where we are today we are exploring like this SDK to also use like op stack in the future versions as well to actually like see if we can actually uh make it more uh like robust maybe a combination of what is life today Tao or op now in this effort uh we heard about fabric what excited us was

um now if anybody is working on a base rollup they don't have to worry about which version of the base rollup is going to be interoperable with the other one that's why fabric makes so much sense if we just create a sort of a pattern a standard that these rollups can be built then we don't have to figure out how these things interoperate uh down the line so that made a lot of sense for us to support fabric so thank you drew for actually providing that proposal because it really addresses a lot of our worries down the line at a later time now also if you look at uh today a lot of the teams are working on provs um provs of different versions like ZK evm provs snark provs Stark

provs te based provs native rollups just like the tldr was to me that Justin gave to me that I instantly got killed was like so much better to just say Okay ethereum is now have the consensus that the rollups are the way to go rollups are great to have let's provide them with the data availability let's give them better data so the gas fees on them comes lower why not provide them more things from the base layer so it would be easier to run these rollups native Rob rollups were just kind of like the no-brainer let's just provide the state provs from the L1 itself so they don't have to really Su to provide these proving systems or kind of like create like things that might be so far from

each other that why we're supportive of this native rollup effort as well and of course once maybe this year or within the next year they come to fruition uh we can get there what I want to conclude in is if we actually continue to creating these standards and using them then we would finally stop selling infrastructure to the normal day-to-day users that are getting on boarded to the next institution that is coming to come this entire ire Big World computer called ethereum we can then start actually showing the true value of it that's why like these standardization efforts are pretty big we're open to work with more

teams actually on these as well like um if uh anyone is interested in working on based rollups um to be able to get there of course we do not want to forget the main uh also like the effort of like L1 scaling itself but I'm sure like there are a lot of teams that are currently working on it thank you all thank you Amir uh and we are at half past so for those who need to leave feel free to jump but we still have three more speakers uh coming up we're almost done we have Demi Sam and vitalic um a couple things that that stood out for me from uh from what you said Amia one of them is the the real time proving um you know one of the unique unlocks of shed

sequencing is that eventually you know we can have synchronous composability and you know we need this real- time proving but what if we use tees to give us real time proving uh today as opposed to having to wait for for SNS um and uh the approach that puffer has you know makes a ton of sense to me where basically they have multiple vendors they have Intel AMD um and Amazon something like that and then uh if it's a three out of three setup then then it's it's it's extremely robust um another thing that I you know came to mind when you when you said your story is that uh you know a story that I have with puffer is that several years ago

they they implemented one of my research post and you that's that that's uh that was a unique moment for me uh and I'm I'm I'm I'm really pleased that uh you know uh the this this this research you know over the years is is is finally starting to to to enter production Amir thank you so much for for speaking um next up uh we have uh Demi brener from open zevin hi Justin uh thank you and Drew for organizing this and inviting us to participate uh for the sake of time I'll make this short and sweet our mission at open Zeppelin is to grow and protect the

open economy and we see base rollups as a promising path to scale ethereum and board billions of users and doing it in a way that maintains some of ethereum's most important important properties including liveness decentralization and sensorship resistance and also by the way solving ethereum's fragmentation problem with d2s so in line with our mission uh we we at open Zeppelin we want to be an active neutral player on accelerating the adoption of Base rollups by developing common standards and infrastructure similar to what we did with the open zeppin contract Library

where uh it was a community effort back in 2017 that got started to standardize common patterns on Smart contracts uh today there's over 20 trillion dollars of value transacted on open zeppin deployed contracts uh so we want to help to uh in that direction also lever leveraging our experience working with many Els many of whom I see here on helping develop their Technologies and also auditing them on the security front so as part of this also as Daniel from Tao mentioned earlier we're happy to be partnering with Tao to design and

create the Next Generation base stack with the goal of uh accelerating the development ad option of Base rollups and benefiting also the whole ecosystem uh we're also at open zeppin supportive of the fabric efforts and we're very looking forward to contributing with resources and research uh and collaborating with multiple teams here uh on making this happen amazing thank you so much uh davan Damian um and I think the way that you know open Zeppelin got got ped on on on on based sequencing is through one of its employees Gustavo uh you know it only takes one person to inject a virus

in and in fact a whole organization um and it's it's fantastic to see that we have you know such a a respected and neutral brand like open Zeppelin uh join the game and and help help build all of the infrastructure that uh that needs to to get built uh thank you so much uh Damian for your for your message next up uh we have Sam and that will be the last speaker in part two of this call thanks Sam Theo yours appreciate it um hey folks pleasure to be here I'll make this quick um I know you're all patiently waiting to hear from the big dog um so I'm Sam a co-founder co-founder at rise uh if

you're not familiar with us rise is a high Performance Based Layer Two uh and along with it we're building an open source based stack um we're super pragmatic uh hyper focused on delivering high quality product to users and the reason I'm mentioning that is um I'm very confident we can do that with a base stack the Bas can reach feature parody with essentialized sequency um something that's unique about us is that we're building a very very fast chain we're looking at multiple gear gas is what we're targeting um but doing it while delivering low latency preon informations and employing based sequency uh we'll have an OP compatible stat sorry we're building op compatible stat that's essentially Juiced up um on

W uh we will have a base L2 to MVP live uh in the next two months is the target um and it's yeah so it's op stack plus breath uh now I I just want to talk about fabric a little bit so in the way I see it there's kind of two directions uh Bas sequencing go can can go the the ecosystem Direction one is that it looks like the early American Railway where there is little standardizations between regions uh which adds a lot of friction to the transport um to transport out the intersection sections of these standards and then there's Direction two where there are there is appropriate standardization I'm very much against over standardization but here it's it's absolutely critical um where developers

don't have to build adapters for every based cluster they want to integrate with um and now this is just isn't this isn't just application developers building interop it's also throughout the PBS Pipeline and RPC providers Gateway Builder um Reay there's there's lots of spots where we need to have apis um well um standards uh now there's a spar collection of teams who are aligned and agree with Direction two um in fact they they agree that it's very important because the the strong Network effects it unlocks and these teams have been making progress over the past two years sorry 12 months not two years um with uh and through that effort we've designed a

constraints API standard pre- confirmations um and some teams have been doing some great work like M SP and nethermind on on blob sharing um but in my opinion the two biggest challenges we've faced in in trying to pull this off is coordination and credibility um there's a lot of teams working on this um and coordination is just a big job JD has been doing a great job of it um along with Drew but I'm really excited for fabric because it's it's just more it's really taken a lead with it um and then the credibil credibility front just the the signaling from ethereum that this is really the direction um scaling is going is is going to be huge to to pull this off it's going to attract more Builders to contribute to this um so yeah Fabric's going to be super well

positioned to to deliver on this uh so yeah speaking today to to share my support for fabric I think it's an important piece and yeah I'm I'm quietly impatient I think we're we're getting stuff done but I think we could get it done faster and that's why I'm particularly excited about fabric that's going to make that happen thanks guys thank you so much Sam um one of the unique things about rise is that it a base validium it's one of the few that's not actually a base rollup it's using Alda and that gives them the opportunity to have an enormous TPS uh and one question that I asked you know very often is is base sequencing incompatible with high TPS and the the answer is definitely no and the reason

is that it's not going to be the validators on their Raspberry Pi doing the sequencing is going to be sophisticated entities in the meev pipeline think the the block Builders The Searchers the gateways the relays these are the entities uh that are going to be doing the heavy duty processing and all the validator has to do is just sign a simple message over a tiny block header uh and you know under the hood there's like potentially millions of TPS that that that that is happening um so yeah Sam thank you so much uh for speaking uh to rise being this High Performance Based based L2 this concl cludes our second part on infra uh and now we have a closing uh

presentation from from vitalic who will talk about an idea to use uh based and Native uh rollups to help fund public goods alic the floor is yours yes hello thank you guys so it's amazing to see all of this interest and all of this willingness uh to work together on sequencing and inter ability and security and all of these really important topics that are the key to the the the next step in ethereum scaling I think uh one of the other things that is also important to continue to talk about and improve on is economics and this is

also one of those things that I mentioned in my post um yesterday and I think uh the the one the thing that I mentioned more of in the post is the economics of eth and basically making sure that eth as an asset continues to functioning and continues to thrive under a variety of different scenarios for how value acral happens um but another part of this is the public goods funding side of things so the reason why I think this topic is important is that our ecosystem

ultimately thrives on open source it thrives on open re open research and it in it thrives on uh people and businesses acting in ways that are pro-social in various ways some and it's valuable to sometimes have explo incentives to doing some some of those things so that people who work on Public public goods work open source projects Open Standards improving security y um public information and education and all these kinds of topics are not just

relying on either themselves being fully altruistic volunteers or funding from some centralized entity but there's some kind of uh very stable and reliable ecosystem wide approach uh to funding this kind of work and I know that many l2s have already made pledges to donate some like whether 1% or a slightly higher percent of either tokens or fees to protocol Guild and I think you know this is amazing and a big shout out to all of the l2s that have that have done that one of my personal prior is for this year will'll be trying to expand the public

goods funding space to beyond that so protol Guild is very good at what it does uh but L1 protocol development is not the only problem there's also uh problem the challenges around building cross layer layer 2 infrastructure there's challenges around uh building even more like general purpose open- Source soft where there's uh all kinds of different areas of work whether it's development research or something else that are important to ethereum's ongoing growth especially as we shift from being just an infrastructure focused ecosystem to also being an application focused

ecosystem and having more mechanisms that are focused on things that go beyond the existing protocol Guild and having uh some like long-term commitments to fund those things would be extremely valuable and so the way that I personally think about this is that I think uh we do not want to over enshrine one single mechanism uh because mechanisms change we've been through quadratic funding we've been through retr funding we've uh now doing deep funding potential uh potentially doing other forms of uh funding as well and I think it would be valuable to try

to make a pledge into in the abstract to use some portion of funding to support um any ethereum ecosystem of funding for uh public uh open open source work uh through mechanisms that specifically try to not um over Empower like one one closed and decentralized group and I think that's the category that things like uh whether protocol Guild or uh retro pgf or gcoin have all strived for and I think what I what could be interesting is to see guess some

substantial number of l2s like make a similar pledge to that General category and I think over time like we as an ecosystem we should be supporting a plurality of different mechanisms right because the more mechanisms get supported the less the chance that there is someone doing extremely important work this uh uh sort of archetypal developer in the middle of Nebraska who doing some uncompensated thing that actually our ecosystem depends on that just gets passed by completely uh and and so if we can start having an ecosystem that spreads out value value across a a collection of these different mechanisms and be willing to stay within

that Spirit but improve over time then this is something that can also be really valuable to ethereum thank you thank you vitalic um I guess one thing that comes to mind is that you know we have some l2s that have this notion of of public goods funding one of them of course is is optimism that has donated you know many tens of millions of dollars to The Wider ecosystem uh I just learned a few days ago that there's another project status network uh that is looking to launch an L2 uh with a treasury that will fund uh public goods and I guess we'd like to spread that

vibe to the to the to the broader ecosystem oh is that is that stat so like the uh the messaging app or a different one yes yes exactly um yeah so they they act name chain Linea and Status all came to Cambridge where I happened to be uh and we had this this three-day workshop with which was super productive um and yeah I agree that that there needs to be more Innovation on on the mechanisms for public goods funding and one of the things I'm particularly excited is to potentially use AI as a a credibly neutral mechanism if you will uh that doesn't involve too many humans to to make a a book a lot of the

decisions uh and I know that there's uh projects like uh AI 16z that is very much thinking in that direction ction and I I know that uh folks from the FM Foundation are talking about that as well yes deep funding exactly um this concludes uh our marathon uh call uh over an hour and a half um what I'd like to do is if you are a YouTube viewer and you made it this far uh and you'd like to contribute whether you are a builder an educator a coordinator a researcher whatever it is do please reach out uh I Justin Drake all lowercase on telegram

uh you can also reach out to a plurality of other coordinators like Drew uh and uh yeah the future is super bright thank you so much uh for all of the speakers for coming and uh see you soon thank you by byebye guys everyone thanks Justin