Ethereum Sequencing and Preconfirmations Call #0

Transcript

okay fantastic um so I'm hoping to to end uh you know exactly at the hour just to respect everyone's time um I'll stop the recording there but if there's like people who are really Keen to keep on chatting afterwards we can have an extended discussion uh immediately afterwards just stay on the on the zoom call um for now this is just a oneof call but maybe we can make it a weekly call if it's uh if it's prop and um you know for now it's this invite only call which we might make public at at some point um so I guess most of you should be part of the telegram group there's also a spreadsheet if you haven't seen it I've tried to um consolidate a lot of the writeups on on

relevant topics Bas sequencing Bas PR confirmation Shar sequencing all of these things um and maybe one of the best ways to to get added to the group is just to uh to produce a write up I guess if someone's watching this um and is not part of the group already um in terms of um the the focus of the call I think the the scope is ethereum uh sequencing and ethereum pre-confirmation so we have rollups that already consume eum data availability they already consume ethereum settlement and here basically the idea is that they they also consume um ethereum uh

sequencing and when I talk about pre-confirmation I really mean like the the best form of pre- confirmations which is uh pre-confirmation on state not just uh pre-confirmation on on transaction inclusion um I guess there's uh four types uh of attendees and I do want to uh do a round of introduction so we have um me infrastructure people um we have rollup Builders we have investors and uh we have researchers and the way that I think about it is that sure there's a lot of you know very interesting and integrity technical details that need to be solved lots of heavy duty engineering um but my

intuition is that actually the most difficult part of of ethereum sequencing and pre-confirmation is coordination and this is partly like the reason why why we're all here this is a multi-party kind of dance that we all have to play um and I'm I'm I'm happy to kind of help uh Kickstart some of the the coordination infrastructure including the spreadsheet the telegram and and and these calls and I think this call would be a success if we do just one thing which is basically share uh amongst each other you know what have we been doing with base rollups how excited we are about uh base rollups and and sequencing and

um you know what is our level of conviction how much work do we feel we still have to be done who have we been talking to um and also just having more common knowledge on on how much progress has been has been done because uh when I did this spread sheet and started consolidating writeups I was actually surprised myself at how much research has already been done from all sorts of people in the ecosystem and um I I I I think you know the general public certainly doesn't real ize it and U maybe a lot of of you didn't realize that there's you know 20 to 30 teams that have already uh you know done done some work on this um that so if if everyone's okay with

that just kind of focusing on on the social layer for this very first call um and and then the next call can be you know extremely technical um so I guess um I'll start with uh the me infrastru infrastructure people um I want to ask you you know out of 10 how excited are you about base sequencing and Bas prec confirmations what have you done so far what are your plans um you know keep it relatively short give a bit of context on you you know your own personal conviction but also what your your broader team is is is is doing and I guess to keep it really organized I'll just go through uh the the the list on

the spreadsheet uh from top to bottom so uh we have Matt who might not be able to make it so um if you're here Matt let us know otherwise we'll move on to the next person Yuri do you want to tell us about uh your conviction sure um hi everybody URI CEO and co-founder of blo rout most of us know one another um I am extremely bullish on pre-confirmation pre- confirmation as just in said could mean quite a lot of different things pre-confirmation on state is the thing that I am extremely like I spent like a year brainstorming about how you can actually do it my direction might be

slightly different from others so my direction is the thing that I'm very excited about is first come first serve pre confirmation basically making defi look something like Ci that has strong um opposition from the me auction side so these aren't very compatible and so I think it would pay more money if we did that way so it would actually more more valuable to validators blah blah blah don't want to get into that but that's my personal angle did a lot of not a lot of public writing did a lot of like okay drafts around it ran the numbers how this would actually be validator to get a smaller slice of the pie but the pie becomes much bigger because there's 10 times more Val volume

but that first come first serve pre confirmation I assume some people here would say oh I'm just like giving you something like intent or something like that you'll get pre- confirmation on the state and you'll get like an RFQ or something like that so personally very very excited at blockr we're not actively working to promote this Vision it isn't one of our of our main goals I am more than happy to have like okay we're working on this and and like redirect towards it if it's something very practical that could be achieved stopping here perfect thank you Yuri um next we have a chain bound so I guess either Jonas and Francesco can can speak on behalf of of chainbound uh yeah I'll take it hello

everyone um so yeah we're also very excited about pre- confirmations and actually Yuri one of the first uh times that we we really saw it was with your presentation uh about pre-com a while ago um and yeah mainly because well the obvious reasons like lower transaction uh confirmation latency the the applications for base Bas Ro rollups uh the fact that base sequencing is like the most uh resilient type of sequencing in in our opinion uh so it's mainly that and and we've been working uh kind of yeah just seeing how it could be implemented specifically next to PBS because yeah there seem to be some

incompatibilities there uh we're also not actively working on like a preon product or something just doing some research uh and and thinking about implementation uh so that's yeah that's basically it perfect thank you thank you Jonas uh next we have the espresso team so I guess Ben Elio CTIC do you want to go ahead yeah happy to um so I mean you all know espresso as a as an implementation of of shared sequencing um but once these uh proposals about base sequencing uh came out and people started talking about pre-confirmation we realized that that um these ideas are actually quite

close um and that with only small changes um we could actually turn espresso into an implementation of Base sequencing with some additional interesting properties um and so I won't take the time right now but this is the sort of hackmd post that I dropped in the in the in the channel and is in the spreadsheet uh sort of explaining how there are some downsides of um vanilla Bas sequencing that uh generally there's a trade-off between L1 composability and the strong finality that you get from centralized sequencers um H but we were proposing u a way of sort of integrating the core of

espresso which which is a bft protocol that can be run among um L1 proposers that are opting into the pre-confirmation layer to close the gap U and and try to eliminate this tradeoff so we think that this is a um a a very good way to implement uh based sequencing and is perfectly complimentary to uh the pre-confirmation that would be given by proposers right so if other people are working really hard on ways of uh give this sort of promises over intent that's very complimentary and I think we can work together on that amazing thank you Ben uh next up we have the Flash team I guess either Dan

or quintis do you want to go ahead yeah I'll take it hi guys yeah we're um flash watch generally interested in offchain me Supply chains and infrastructure and trying to make that sort of more secure making sure that um so the incentives don't lead to a negative Dynamic so we're here mostly to learn and understand how things could progress forward perfect thank you quentis uh next up we have the ultrasound team um Alex or Nicholas yeah um excitement wise like I'd

say a nine when it comes to like the unlock for the user experience of like an ethereum user what we could achieve here and how the chain as the whole could improve also relative to to others um maybe for me personally more like seven out of 10 just because I feel like I'm still learning and trying to figure out the pieces and see how all this complexity translates into well for example a Relay operator playing a small part of the in the bigger picture right that's fair there's still a lot of exploring and education to do um next up we have L2 beat uh BK yeah hi uh everybody I'm not really sure if I should be in this column anyway but uh having said that uh we're

very excited to see uh thisel development and from our point of view we're trying to make sure that uh we're like ahead of U whatever the interesting angle is being discussed and uh and implemented that will allow us to uh to to better have ourselves prepared so I guess I'm kind of an outside observer in a way but uh I'm very interested in uh in in in in progress and also uh making show that you know any team that actually does something interesting even it's if it's on uh not on the main yet you know like I would love that team to reach out to us so that you know we can be like prepared makes sense uh Nathan from

convexity hey everyone I'm Nathan I'm a Searcher and builder in the me space so I'm really excited about this from an intellectual standpoint I find it really interesting um from an economic standpoint I'd say I'm both um bullish and bearish at the same time so I'm bullish about the possibilities that pre-c confirmations unlock for example Futures markets for Block space markets for risk where we move risk away from protocols into the hands of solvers who are appropriately paid and specialized I'm a little bit bearish about some of the risks of adding um complexity into the intense supply chain that doesn't currently exists and what the implications of that are and also what the potential barriers to entry could be here and what the solver landscape looks

like when you factor in returns to Capital and specialization so this is something I'd love to discuss I think these are important question questions to answer right I guess one of the mental models that I have is that um you know there's a lot of sub problems within pre-confirmation specifically there's also a lot of sub problems within decentralized sequencing specifically and there's also sub problems within shared sequencing specifically and in some sense um base sequencing and base prec confirmations is like a tiny little change relative to like all these other problems they don't introduce that many problems and so what I'm hopeful will happen is that um these sub problems will be tackled individually um and we

kind of get a lot of the R&D for for free in terms of Base sequencing okay uh next up we have uh Sasha from Lio I don't know if he made it oh yeah I can see you hi Sasha hi can you hear me okay yes yeah um I mean I I don't know my motivation isn't primarily Lio driven here it's just um was uh in Costa Rico with Justin and and he pitched uh when he pitched the Bas rollup idea perhaps for the first time and fell in love with it and for me it was like clearly uh you know one thing I've been

struggling with the the current rollup uh the pre-based rollup scanning strategy was the fact that it it felt to me like we were losing what made a theum um incredibly special compared to other um you know other chains and then that's really has to do with this notion of credible neutrality and and this notion of liveness on the um you know extreme scenarios and for me when when Justin pitched the base roll up Ide it clicked that this was actually the way to to scare while preserving what made um what makes the F most special so I'm just here to listen and and think through um um you know possible narratives and and shelling points that can help drive

this forward perfect thank you Sasha uh next up we have nevermind team with with Connor or swap nil hey so yeah for people who are just joining the group I guess I'm sort of the the person who was going down like a pedantic rabbit hole about defining what a preon a pre-confirmation a base pre-confirmation was or like what a pre-proposal confirmation should be um so yeah like definitely was there was a there was a period of time there where I was really trying to Define like the difference between a b a base pre conformation and a BF preformation I think that's important especially for people who don't really understand there's like differences there technicality and economics perspective so important that we flesh

that out um from NE nethermind perspective I guess we're also we're planning to implement prec confirmations uh very soon we were're sort of talking about Tao I'm hope hoping that we can actually maybe put something out there in terms of a POC or an MVP it's actually you get pre-confirmation going Bas pre confirmations oh wow I don't know about that very exciting um and then next we have the EMA team with uh Chris and Pascal yes um so we're pretty new research group with a background interoperability space but also in operations research and economic stuff

um so pretty bullish um I think open questions I see is like in protocol this Auto protocol with see teams like espresso and Austria and like how to solve these um yeah conceptual problems in the best way um from our perspect perspective what we are working on currently is we have quite a focus on execution tickets working there um on the design space for pricing with Barnaby um so also quite interested in like interoperability there with execution block space how can Network um for pre- confirmations um yeah so focus on that there um then in terms of bringing people together we also organizing a suzo style thing um in Berlin where we like to bring a good amount of

researchers in person together so if anybody here is interested to join that end of May after East Berlin and Berlin blockchain week feel free to Ping us um like here on telegram yeah Chris thank you so much for organizing this um I'll probably try and join and and give a talk and if that could be a shelling point for you know base sequencing and pre confirmations then uh that would be a fantastic outcome um I skipped uh George uh sorry about that George you want to go ahead George worri hey guys yeah I'm George I'm co-founder of flme chain who's uh despite your intuition is not a chain we are consultancy trying to help rollups and I'm heading the R&D division where

we have our theory that uh rops are the next best thing that's going to happen especially the uh base rollup so for the last uh I guess two months we have been focusing mainly on base rollups uh on the various writeups around break confirmations we tried uh some ideations of how the different things can work out in order for a rollup to be able to realize u based rollups we are trying to help various rollups with the uh implementations or the ideations around uh integrating uh based or even boost the rollups in their uh system amazing that's that's great to hear uh that you're pushing the the

frontier forward on that um next up I we have Murat from Prime EV Prime app thanks Justin um hey everyone as many of you know I was um part of the meu stewards group at Deon bogot where I was frustrated with all of the searcher request coming to our builder at the time at block native and had this Insight that I can't solve these as a centralized block Builder and we need some sort of kind of um you know shared system P2P network of some sort where these guarantees can be given and this led to the founding of Prim we've been looking at pre-confirmation quite deeply and how we can have an outof protocol approach that is compatible with PBS today we have a a proof of

concept running on Holi uh but we really see this as an environment where us and perhaps folks on the skull can experiment with the various types of pre-confirmation um right now we're focused on transaction pre-confirmation but state is obviously one thing everyone's talking about here uh one thing I'd like to bring the group's attention to is these block pre-confirmation that Builders have asked us for so what if a proposer can kind of um get a three times higher bid like halfway into the slot and say hey look I'll just kind of commit to this bid and then you can deliver the payload at the end of the slot kind of um which uh I believe is a very interesting approach but one we have to very carefully think about because it can have many implications on security in

the auction um so yeah we're doing a lot in this space but there's a myriad of open problems one thing I'd like to also um uh point out is that there's a big kind of design space that can be unlocked by some minimum enshrinement of some problems regarding this particularly around Builder identity um uh some other uh you know aspects of of attribution of uh who did what so that you can design games around pre-confirmation uh so yeah that's a big Preamble from me but please reach out to us if you want to um you know experiment with us uh on Hol ski we're working with Builders and and validators on there to you know coordinate them over this PDP Network and uh make these come true and uh we're very excited to work with folks on this call we think um there's going

to be many types of pre-confirmation and uh they can settle in different ways for different blocks uh through different Technical Systems so uh yeah very excited to be here wow I didn't realize you guys are already on test net uh super exciting uh next up we have Aztec uh with Cooper and Lisa yeah hi everyone uh I'm on the Aztec team we're a privacy first layer two for ethereum uh we plan on launching with a fully decentralized sequencing improving network uh should have a test net in the next couple of months hopefully um we're super interested in L1 pre- confirmations from the perspective of Landing our blocks on chain and our blobs on chain on a regular Cadence uh

and some predictable cost model uh ideally um but yeah happy to be here and excited to uh talk about this and work from it from the perspective of a fully decentralized layer too perfect so that was uh the first project I guess in the rollup category next in the rollup category we have uh David from fuel guys uh I'm David from Fuel and yeah we're um I say this this call is good timing we're actually on our like sequencer offsite um I guess for anyone not familiar with fuel we're building kind of a new stack for for rollups and hopefully planning to launch our first rollup we'll be announcing dates uh

pretty soon hopefully uh but yeah I've spent a good amount of our our day kind of starting our discussion around pre-confirmation so uh it's a good timeing excited to to learn a bit more oh wow W an offsite on sequencing and pre-confirmation sounds sounds great um next up we have a scroll with Sam and mo hi this is Sam jigan from scroll um I would say in terms of H for L1 sequencing or based Ro of design I I'm probably a nine or a 10 personally uh in terms of excitement pre-confirmation which I think is a little bit newer you know complex I I I I don't

to U having a full technical understanding of all the details but I think it's obviously super cool very exciting if we could pull it off so maybe I guess I'd say I'm a seven or eight simply from a lack of maybe full uh understanding there um I think the team more broadly is still in a research phase um but very interested and so there's a I I don't think that there's a a consensus or there's a firm Direction but the the team is is is engaged on the research side and mo in Mo and I in particular uh have been looking at this issue for a while and I you know I think just to Justin's credit I think I always just assumed L1 sequencing was the uh was the instate I think Justin laid out

for me years ago uh you know this kind of broad design so it's always been the default in my mind personally thank you Sam uh next up we have bretch from Tao yep hey uh um so yeah strong strong Believer from in base drups from the start uh and hopefully in the next couple of months we'll actually uh launch uh our rollup as a base rollup um so hopefully that goes okay um because yeah most of the most of the things that we did on our side is mostly theoretical so it will be great to also see it working in in in practice and obviously like afterwards U like prec confirmations for user experience will be like super important uh so yeah very excited about like that it is possible

uh and it's seems like even possible in practice now with like all the research that you guys also did um and yeah I guess like in practice also yeah we had like a grant open uh to help make this stuff and so been working with like the neite people and the lme chain people on on trying to get this done yeah this stuff is possible uh today even without a hard Fork uh and great to hear that um you have this this ground infrastructure and maybe there's something we can talk about after the intros like what kind of infrastructure is there to try and and and push this forward in terms of of coordination and and funding um next up we have uh Brendan from uh

polygon hey everyone uh I'm Brendan uh work at polygon um I'm I would say that I'm very excited about uh sort of defragmenting ethereum and unifying State liquidity um the angle that we're sort of looking at this from is uh from the perspective of agre ation specifically proof aggregation which basically provides we think like a safety mechanism for asynchronous and synchronous composability and um we think that this is really complimentary uh to share sequencing and base sequencing and pre-confirmation so yeah nice to meet everyone yeah Brandon and I had a call uh just before this call um and you know basically my my previous thesis was that

you know we need uh shed sequencing and we need realtime settlement in in order to unlock Universal synchronous composability and I think that's technically true uh but like the the work that polygon is doing with with the agregation which is basically saying as a sequencer of one chain uh my block is only valid conditional on the state of some other rollup also being valid um that actually helps with safety um so um it's I agree with Brandon it's like totally complimentary and um it's great to hear that we have we have this kind of unexpected new piece of safety coming out of the Woodworks uh next up uh we have the sella team not technically a rollup but

maybe some sort of like application specific sequencing um lvic uh Philip tic hey guys um here at Tera we're really excited for uh for um B sequencing we're you know really um thinking about the future that it implies with universal synchronous compos ility a bit of context on what we're doing right now we're building a m resistant amm on ethereum um and we're doing this by batch auctions so we're specifically interested in the last L problem that kind of arises out of pre-confirmation and how to quantify and minimize the um extractable value on the part of the pre-confirmation future um will lead to a design space

where now the thing to be optimized is application specific virtual machines um so in that line of thought we're doing a lot of internal work uh with regards to designing a virtual machine optimized for batch auctions right amazing yeah as soon as we have this Universal secret composability then the long taale of VMS suddenly opens up and they can tap into all the the liquidity and network effects um while still being hypers specialized uh which is super exciting okay so now we're moving on to the third type of people on this call which are investors uh and first up we have Jonah from blockchain

Capital hey uh nice to meet everybody um I think my excitement level on this one is like a nine out of 10 I think it allows ethereum to ensure block space is provided um to those who want it most um I'm currently working on a paper for uh valuing execution tickets um and mapping out all the second order effects um the context on execution tickets is that it's an orthogonal approach to me burn um that will allow ethereum to internalize more meev um and the key Insight here is that capturing me is a pure function of an execution payload Monopoly and what the execution ticket protocol does is separate out the proposer who actually has the right to propose the execution

payload and has actually bid for it um but the effect the downstream effects is that a new entity will now be controlling the execution payload which will affect how pre-ms are designed and how shared sequencers are designed what I like about it is that by actually having people pay for this Monopoly um the ethereum protocol be able to capture all the value associated with giving out pre- comps and shared sequencing and all of that um so it seems to me like a more clean abstraction that allow ethereum to internalize all this new value um so I'm currently working to understand how to Value these tickets um and the second question will be how to price them to actually capture said

value thank you Jonah yeah I'm extremely excited about execution tickets which is a potential upgrade to the L1 a hard fork and what it does is that it decouples the execution proposers from the role of a validator so now validators are no longer sequencing transactions that's a more specialized role and not only do we get a very nice segregation of roles very similar to PBS uh but we we also get this this burn aspect and not only are we burning meev but we're also Burning pre-confirmation uh so it's it's kind of a very uh interesting upgrade next up uh we have drew from brev

Howard awesome great to meet everyone uh here at a personal capacity but uh very excited about any new ways we can use ethereum that we hadn't previously thought about so pre confirm up that alley and what it implies for uh base rollups and sequencing over the last year have written on Builders using pre-con uh Builders using pre-c confirms uh block based feutures which are a form of preon firms and then most recently the relay offering a service to both validators and builders for preon firms so needless to say quite excited about all this and happy to hear and collaborate with everyone here amazing um third investor in the chat we have um cyber fund with autm and

WT hi everyone nice meeting everyone yeah um so uh I'm a researcher at Cyber and we at Cyber are very thesis-driven you know we we think ethereum will be the substrate kind of of digital economy in the future so we're super excited about um kind of all the improvements on the scalability defragment mentation um side and in particular pre-confirmation so um you know maybe from two two angles mainly one is obviously investor angle you know would like to support uh the ecosystem and the projects and the other angle is actually maybe from the intellectual angle as well so I'm diving into um the great

writeups that you all written those are very interesting yeah and yeah about kind of excited to into the details of the design and discuss how we can improve it perfect thank you Autumn um next we have uh David from Rockaway x uh David he had to drop off I think yeah he had to drop out halfway through yeah he did give me a heads up um okay um so the next category of people um is are the researchers um I don't think bonab could make it uh so I'm not sure Alex could make

it gosh the researchers are very busy um oh hey hey hey I give a quick little intro um hey everyone um yeah I mean very excited about both base rollups and you know if that sort of unlocks L1 pre- confirmations um I think pre confirmations like everyone else is saying you know could be like the super great ux Improvement um and yeah I think I'm a little more skeptical on some of the details of based rollups but yeah looking forward to uh keep track of things how things evolve all the great work that everyone else is doing and uh see where this goes perfect uh we also have Julian as a researcher hi everyone um yeah I'm very

excited to hear more about uh the Bas Fe for informations I worked Bas on blood Spas features with Bas Fe as underline uh some time um so interested in how um studies from these two things can align okay perfect uh and we have fundo uh an independent researcher hello everyone can you hear me okay yeah yeah H yeah like I'm pleasur to be here thanks for including me Justin I'm not sure that I have to be in this call I'm feeling kind of flar to hear to be honest H but well my name is fundo I from Argentina I'm just I'm just an enthusiastic trying to understand PR confirmations and like

Bas sequencing as a whole H I used to work at maker da the cor the grow cor unit as an analyst but I left like some months ago H but yeah I'm mostly interested at in this new Meb landscape that pre confirmations introduced because like correct me if I'm wrong but the layer one proposal would have the chance to include several layer two blocks into a single layer one block as far as I understand so users don't have this me protection from private man pool from centralized sequencers like Optimus or ar and although I know there are several several bunch of mechanis to

address this like H execution tickets or I don't know like thr action this is is what catch my my attention the most okay understood thank you FAO and by the way you wrote a great explainer on base roll La so uh that alone warrants you you being on this call uh thank you for the WR up uh next up we have uh Matthew who's also independent researcher hey thanks Justin um I'm Matthew eelin my screen name is MTM 88 um I'm an me Searcher and and independent researcher I'm focusing on the transaction submission phase of Bas sequencing which is how users will get

their transactions through pre-con fers and shared sequencers and um the wallets involved there um in the telegram group I posted a draft for a brief article on that and some of the concerns I have about existing designs um and then one more thing a lot of people here have said that they're still trying to understand everything surrounding Bas sequencing and pre-confirmation and if the people in this call are still learning then I think we need more resources to explain um the benefits of Base sequencing to the average ethereum user so um Justin's bankless episode was a great start and I plan to build on top of that with a few articles amazing that's that's great to hear um so we've covered the whole

spreadsheet in 40 minutes uh Quite a feat um I guess you know today I want to really focus on this the social layer the coordination layer um and I guess I want to open in up to to the audience in terms of what kind of infrastructure have you been working on uh to help this coordination uh I want to highlight a few that we already mentioned so one is Zu Berlin uh where we could have some sort of conference dedicated to based prec confirmations and sequencing um another one is Tao giving out a a grant um I don't know if you're giving out more grants but that'd be that'd be great to hear and again I guess the third one is Def Foundation uh right is a a prolific Grand giving

organization um and I believe we've already received at least one uh Grant application on this exact topic um so if anyone here uh wants to you know I guess talk about any any ideas that they have or or plans that they have to help with with coordination uh please go ahead um we would love to uh this is quite you know aligned with our mission and in kind of getting getting this coordination going for for PBS uh and we have some Primitives that could help um in in you know the chasing of these uh goals particularly they can help in since some other um you know adjacent research areas too we have cryptographic Primitives and uh you know a P2P Network

that can really be focused around around these and commitments um like we we think we have some interesting use cases of this around pre-confirmation but we think folks on this call and others can really come up with really interesting stuff using these primitive so um to that extent uh if there's a grand pathway that would um you know allow us to coordinate better and and formalize this we'll be happy to pursue that and and open it up to the folks on this call and Beyond to um you know run this uh social coordination Beyond this call just to make sure I understand are you offering to give away grants or you you were considering applying for Grant considering applying for one um not necessarily for the funds we can you know redirect the funds to something

else but uh to to get something formal going and and perhaps um to invite others uh who might want to work on this in a in a kind of EF compatible way right I see um so the eim foundation does have a website uh where you can submit grants there's two types of Grants there's the small grants and the that are $30,000 or less and the the bigger grants the the small grants have just less bureaucracy um and due diligence Associated so let's usually easier to to get through as a as a first step um but yeah we give grants of all size sometimes including multi-million dollar grants um happy to uh to chat about the the

grant applications for sure good yeah and t t also has like Grants open for well I guess we have like one specifically for pre informations but yeah if it's something related to Bas rups then yeah we can talk and uh yeah I'll also link it in the telegram group I guess it makes sense I don't have like and yeah I don't have anything that I can offer from the top of my head but from my perspective what would be beneficial for me and I think a lot of the people are kind of you know each is doing their own thing in their small pond and there are a lot of moving forwards maybe doing something like 20 minutes presentation like somebody who's really oh here's the latest on based rollups because I

haven't looked at it for like six months and then oh here's the latest on the sequencing that or precon on Bas like if we could do you know not an hour long conversation but something short and to the point from somebody who knows what exactly what he's talking there I would find it helpful I don't know if others feel the same yeah for sure I mean if you want to lead that then that that that sounds great um in the chat willing to do that I I I that I can do so like willing to to to take point point on this nice uh Dan in the chat says flash BS is also willing to give Grant so we have three grand giving uh organizations uh

already which is which is fantastic to hear um nice and I guess uh one question I have is is anyone hiring here uh is anyone hiring Engineers for sequencing pre confirmations I guess if if we make this call public and people are listening who should they um who should they contact if they're interested in topic inpress Engineers we hiring protocol engineers and protocol researchers well yeah anybody rust based Engineers we're absolutely hiring okay nice I would say Aztec is

hiring on the engineers and also the uh R&D front um and also probably cryptographers we're always Hing cryptographers NE mind's also for the lookout for engineers and protocol researchers okay nice so we have espresso scroll Sorella Aztec and never mind hiring for these kind of roles fuel well and fuel well perfect you can throw Flash in there as well I think pretty much everyone is looking for good Engineers okay everyone is hiring there's so many opportunities here uh for Bas pre confirmations and and sequencing uh that's that that's great to hear if anyone wants to start a

new company too we'll look at funding it also so it's another way to hire people in right anybody looking for a job that's the I guess another topic would be okay this is a multi-party kind of coordination game like what kind of Partners are you missing for example you know in order to get uh base sequencing or base prec confirmation bootstrapped there needs to be like a critical mass of of the validators that opt in something like 15 to 20% you know is that a pain point to try and get the the validators on board what about the builders uh do you have existing

connections to the builders you know as relay as a Relay operator and there's the ultrasound uh Team here as well like we're really well connected to the builders do you need intros there what about the Searchers in order to do pricing of the tips I guess I'd be curious to hear um who you looking to to do partner Partnerships with and and yeah who you're hoping to talk to I don't know if this is the same for PR informations but at least for uh base fee derivatives we see that there are little of companies building these things but then there are no market makers actually trading them and every time like these companies say that there will be some speculators but we don't see any speculators so may maybe like DG or or Market making funds would be

useful yeah I I think the problem here I I've spoken to a couple of these folks is that the this is all very academic um I don't think there's been any material that has translated like all the findings to the key stakeholders so there should be something that explains why it's interesting to have a block space future to a Speculator there should be something that explains why it's good for ethereum user to have a block space future there needs to be material that takes this like 301 level research and gives it in a 2011 manner to like the proper people um so I think from the coordination side it requires I guess articles that dumb it down I guess

so to speak I think the Justin podcast was a was a fantastic start yeah I I also agree on on the on the coordination side I think we can there's an opportunity also to speak with uh applications a new application coming out like sella and other um applications have offchain components I think can benefit a lot from prec confirmations so yeah talking with validators uh more validators would help but also talking with with with new applications that are coming out with new new dynamics of how they work and and see how that would fit in how prec confirmation would fit in inside of

their uh implementation design because we could see a word where again uh application have uh would benefit a lot from this at least from our research we've we've been seeing them as uh potential users of this technology on top of layer tools yeah that makes sense I mean in ter talking about users like having a a proof of concept application that has this real time amazing user experience uh would be a great demo uh and also eventually it would be good to get the the big wallets involved like metamask and whatnot um and that will that will that's part of the coordination game as well uh George you have your hand

up one more thing that's around the coordination game uh is what I've been noticing when we've been speaking with various teams that are looking into base rollups or our base rollups themselves I think everyone in this call and everyone that's ever talked about base throwups and BAS confirmation more uh have very kind of different idea what these are so we are kind of missing an alignment of what actually these are like what is important like one of the teams think that inclusions are important other teams think that committing to post po state is important uh and yeah there is like a massive need for us to start sinking up or converging around some requirements set and I wanted to say great job to default said

chain bound I noticed their link around pre-confirmation implementation TOS they have done a great job around at least starting some requirements list I did something similar myself too but I think if this group can start with one thing eventually is to actually figure out what we want for prec confirmations to be what what do what's theend game of prec confirmations yeah absolutely having some sort of Standards maybe an RC uh the equivalent of erc20 but for pre-confirmation so that everyone can have a shared uh you know understanding of expectations and and and properties that especially the wallets uh that are

going to be consuming these these pre confirmations uh we have uh Matthew who left a message in the chat saying I need a job um and he also has his hand up so I'll the floor is yours Matthew well um other than being interested in maybe getting hired somewhere I'm also um wanting to think about coordinating some like effort to explain base sequencing to like I said the average ethereum user and how we can um uh make it clear like what the benefits are and also what are the changes going to have to be to wallets and um just that like more user facing uh part like what is the um what is the

wallet experience going to look like for users I think we already know it's going to um look a lot more like ethereum did um with only like one uh abstract chain that people are interacting with but is it going to um require configuration from the user how our while it's going to send users transactions to um pre-con fers that's just the kind of thing I'm thinking about so if anyone else is interested in that please reach out to me on telegram okay thank you Matthew for the initiative uh lwi you also have your hand up yeah I just wanted to Echo um franchesco's point about speaking with application designers um from our

perspective at least um there's some doubt on just thinking and having a practical mental model of how this is technically implemented and we're like super keen on exploring various ways that we can benefit from pre- comps but it help a lot to understand um how it actually lays out in practice and I think uh a great way U that we could personally work on that is outlining like a case um case study for example of how we could use it and explain in technical detail um how we kind of get to the point where we can benefit from them so it's really for us at least as application devs um being able to

understand how and what the technical requirements are so we can think about various uh ways we can use right absolutely yeah having some sort of endtoend demonstration uh proof of concept will really help flesh out all the details I feel like I have a reasonably good understanding or at least I feel like I have a good understanding at the spec and then like usually sorry at the at the research level but usually the pipeline is research specs and then like proof of concept and then and then main net um and so yeah I I I I think having like this

accelerationist approach with a with a proof of concept that kind of pulls forward the spec um and helps iterate uh very fast would be would be really cool any anyone else we have five minutes left um so we can you know dedicate a few more minutes to to coordination and then the the next go hopefully will be focused on on ny- gritzy technical details uh Sam yeah so I um I think that just raising the awareness um and getting the conversation going on this is very important so I think this is a this is a great part of that process something I had raised uh internally but I haven't

followed up on yet but you know I think maybe you know somebody mentioned earlier maybe having a small conference focused on this we could also just do a side event whether it's at Devcon or it seems it's probably too early you know too soon to do uh Denver but you know I'm having a day or two before or after one of the regular largely attended uh conferences would be a really great way uh for both people that aren't yet part of the movement let's say uh to join and and collaborate but also where we could have some of these proof of Concepts Etc kind of Target to come and present um so um yeah getting the conversation going

like this and then putting it wrapping it in you know bringing in um on the pre pre-confirmation side you know bringing in shom or somebody from the I layer side uh folks thinking working from that angle I think would be helpful yeah absolutely um yeah there's a lot of teams that are missing from this call I realize we're missing wallets we're missing resters we're missing you know the the hardware accelerators for the the snar proving there's a lot of different uh teams is extremely multi disciplinary and exciting on the topic of conferences um I'm going to be at e London I guess it makes sense for me to talk about this so um if you want to

meet up in person I'll be at e London and just the whole week around it and uh and more more than happy to to chat in person uh there anyone else have any U closing thoughts on uh on coordination yeah I think uh another group that could be interested in this are centralized exchanges uh because they could benefit from uh improving the ux experience for their users in terms of like Pro potentially providing Services of like instant confirmation of a withdrawal or or something like that again theoretically but I think it could be interesting to to discuss with

them yep for sure I mean what I'm hoping to do is like grow the telegram group at a at a reasonable Pace um so that we don't get too too overwhelmed uh and maybe at some point we become so big that we have to to Branch out in more specialized uh telegram groups or calls or whatever whatever whatever it is um anyone else George is the is the idea for this for this group to kind of Branch out on various work groups on the various aspects of the prec confirmations and collaborate and and work on this or what is the general like next steps for this group in general for

this Collective right great question um so I think one of the next steps is to really sync up on the technical details and maybe understand what are the open problems that still need to be tackled and then once we have a clear understanding of the open problems uh we can start as assigning assigning people uh to solve uh these problems and then that here it makes sense to to to Branch out um on that note um I'm pretty pleased with how this this first call went um is anyone here um not happy with making this call uh public uh basically making the recording uh public if if you're not happy with it you can tell me

privately uh with a DM and I'll take that into consideration otherwise you know it would be great to I think to to make all of this information that was shared today uh public in terms of a potential next call um I was very surprised that the the percentage of people who could make it I just suggested this time slot uh kind of at random and uh 90% of people could make it so I'm thinking of keeping this time slot uh Friday at 2 pm UTC uh if that all works for everyone and um maybe having a the a call next week um I think that's a good Cadence at the very beginning you know once per week while we're still learning at such a

fast pace uh and then maybe later on we can we can slow down maybe once every two weeks or once a month or we can specialize in terms of different calls um with all that said uh we've reached the end of the hour so um as promised I want to try and end on time thank you so much uh everyone who who who came um and I guess I I'll see a lot of you on Telegram and next week and if you're really really Keen um and you want to stay on for kind of an informal after discussion um I'll be staying on but um no need to stay stay on thanks everyone uh bye