EthCC 3 – Flash Loans and Elbow Bumps

Transcript

hey there Sebastian here you know the podcaster lives in a relationship is too unbalanced you know us a lot better than we know you and we want to narrow that gap so please do me a favor and answer our audience survey it takes four minutes and it will help us to continue producing content that informs and inspires you you can find the survey at epicenter rocks slash survey and at the end I'll tell you how you can get a free Kiki Hardware wallet courtesy of shape-shift - thank you for your time so thanks in advance and on with the show hi welcome to epicenter my name is Sebastian Cuchillo this is the first of

a series of bonus episodes and bonus content that was recorded at the etherion community conference in Paris from March 3rd to March 5th in this episode feta and I sat down towards the end of the conference to have an informal discussion with Gonzalo Salle co-founder and security researcher at consensus diligence Jerome - tshe president of aetherium France and Cassidy Daley the token designer at centrifuge we talked about the topics do jewel and the things on everyone's mind at the conference including the issues with centralization and defy and token governance the security complexities of composability attacks like the ones we saw recently which leveraged flash loans and of course the corona virus now just in the last few days we've discovered

that people who were at the conference have tested positive for kovat 19 I was in contact with some of these attendees in some taking the advice of health officials and Friends and quarantine myself for the next few weeks and monitoring my situation as it evolves if you think you've been in contact with someone who's tested positive for kovat 19 or if you're showing any of the symptoms please refer to your local health authorities for the proper course of action in your area I think it would also be helpful for everybody to be transparent at this time so that people can take the proper precautions if they think they might have been infected we're here ECC ECC is about to end and we're speaking with three very lovely

panelists the first one is Gonzalo from consensus diligence then there's Shivan who organized this conference and then there's Cassidy who token economics for centrifuge and with me is Sebastian so maybe you can do a super-short round of interactions and maybe talk about the talks that you gave well we're going to give he had ECC I can start hi my name is Gonzalo I've been with consistent diligence I'm one of the co-founders I've been there for three years and I'm also director of hugs at consensus that's an official title of mine I'm Jerome I'm the president of interim France we organize at CC every

year the first week of March and I had exquisite pleasure to receive a lot of hugs and a lot of and had to saw lots of sponsors that are recurring knows this is one of them so thank you so much again and it's a real pleasure to have the whole community gathering in France every year every year my name is caste working at centrifuge which is connecting businesses to financing giving them greater access and unlocking value that has previously been inaccessible yeah tell us about that talks you gave so I give one talk just about centrifuge chain and why we're building it today which is I think less controversial more visible talk to us to

explain what is we're doing and why we think it's interesting and I think the more interesting talk I gave was yesterday together with a beet it come who's working at radical and we talked about how we can start putting the D back in defy so we've looked at a few d5 projects and analyzed them and showed that actually they're really not actually decentralized they're pretty centralized and then we talked about how dows can be used to start opening up different layers of the system in what ways are they centralized I'm glad you asked would be great if you also checked out the talk because you really don't to this I mean I think you can have a really vague definition of what decentralized means and what defias as a result so there's

everything from bank the unbanked to really getting into basically taking away intermediaries and so not having central control of basically like things like admin keys for example but there's also an element of transparency as well and we think that dows are really good for and basically tackling both of those things so decentralizing the control of the entire infrastructure but also bringing a large degree of transparency to the whole process yeah I think I think when people say defy they all are they often mean self custodial and that's often enough so it doesn't really matter how decentralized the protocol itself is or whether there's any owners

to the protocol whether people can make changes in upgrades and so on yeah the safe custodial is is usually the thing that that qualifies the things as defy right but I would I would argue that a lot of these projects they are just completely recreating what already exists today in the financial system and not really adding a lot of value on top especially when just taking control of some projects maybe they say okay we use a multi sig for our contracts oh that's great but like you're still one company that controls this multisig like what does that actually decentralizing you know so I really don't like the acronym defy I think it's misleading it's not

decentralized finance is more disintermediated finance at best or recent relies on one single party that people can audit but at yet-to-be I had at that time too watched all of the talks like being the event organizer I just running and don't see anything but I saw your talk on the couple of what's happened in today Graham group saying oh this is actually great thank you so she said I'll do this and this year the defy track was one of the most submitted track we had a 100 or something different submission for the defy and we kept something like 40 so definitely one of the big movements in the in the space right now yeah I'm gonna blame Jerome

now for my talk earlier today that did not happen because of the zero people that were in the room so never give a talk during the last day of a conference in the first slot no but I yesterday was in a really good panel well with the with the alpha team so Stanny also tom from a stack about privacy a lot of talk about insurance and flash loans obviously that is that for me has been the theme of the conference um were we're at a point where everybody's starting to get already annoyed by the topic whatever but we've we've talked extensively about

it how that ties into into insurance companies are popping up like Nexus mutual and whatnot so that as we've we've been having some really really really interesting talks about that I'd like to come back to what you were saying about how defy isn't actually decentralized and I think it the nuance between like decentralized and disintermediated is interesting you know would it make sense for the ecosystem as a whole to start thinking about sort of the guidelines and best practices in this space so from you know custody but also who holds control of like you know servers and things like that like do you think that it would make sense for the

space to start thinking about about that collectively to sort of set standards for like what defy should be your ought to be yeah I definitely think so I I hope that's where we were starting with our talk yesterday is trying to bring up what we think some of the initial standards could be and one interesting case study that was really perfectly timed was compounds governance token and I think it's it shows that they're also thinking about this and they're tackling specifically a few different areas in terms of starting to open up access to really controlling compound as a user so the the positive side is that they're

opening up access to to make these decisions on where the protocol is going to go but the negative side is that there's choosing who they're giving this access to in the very so I think it would be nice to start having conversations about I think like something that's really close to me is what is this initial distribution of power going to look like is it right to actually just choose yourself who the initial stakeholders are and give them the power from from the beginning and what it how does that affect to centralization of these decisions going forward as well so as someone who has started a dhow before it's enormously difficult to actually find a good

initial distribution for voting power in dowse so basically because you want to give it to people who care so as not to make a tax too easy because most people who phoned for vote I mean if you just give it to random people it's like that's a non-starter so you need to give it to people who are interested and then you need to measure to a certain extent how interested they are and they need to convey the interest in some way or other and it's super difficult to find a a workable way of doing this so what do you suggest I mean I actually I loved what Dax Dow tried to do I thought that was a really good example of how to do it in a way where you're really considering giving both open access as

well as access to people that care so you targeted people who are already using touch x and you said okay if you if you're using aetherium or one of the other tokens on touch X if you're an active user then we're giving you the opportunity to self-select to get power in this governance and I thought to mean that that made more sense of an initial model then top-down just selecting as compound is doing our investors and basically just giving it back to the VC whales that already exists in projects like maker so I by no means do I want to say that compounds model is good or you know fantastic or I should be emulated a lot but with the DX now so basically you

could get a reputation in the Dow by trading on the Dutch X but you could also get reputation by just essentially locking up ether or other tokens that are listed on the Dutch X which which was by many people as starting a plutocracy in a way because basically you give power to people who already hold a lot of funds yeah it's a difficult problem I'm gonna make a plug for something that a colleague of mine just put out two days ago actually more Elian because following all the things that we that we were seeing all the attacks with bzx with with a bunch of like composability in defy we thought there must be a guideline for people to be able to

assess these things right more from a security perspective obviously not not purely from a governance one but the the first point in that blog post is exactly admin privileges right so knowing that something is not decentralized from the moment that it is deployed should be really important to the end user yeah no I think that's true just wanted to come back on the the criterias that be used for this especially for voting I had an interesting discussion with the guys from from unlock there was their idea so I'm happy to share it so the idea was like okay let's look at how many how many ow well let's count the addresses that they are interacting with

the contract in the address that I interact the most should get better better voting power because the interact and also wait that with the with the number of the total number of transaction that they are done the nonce so as to consider that voting is it's actually expensive to vote you need to read what you are going to vote on and you need to make a transaction so at least picking people that do lot of transaction means that for those people they are already a proc Shana blocks in handy they will actually vote which sounds like a terrible idea to just give voting rights to investors because they have investors and they barely move their token and they are barely used there what it's since they got the token

in the first place I mean you've seen this before with maker right so basically the maker governance they were a couple of make aways who by combining their maker tokens or even individually could have pushed any sort of update to the contract without a grace period so I that's now been fixed so basically now there's a 24-hour clock period implemented before things actually follow through but yeah I mean it's a dangerous path I guess we are we are completely experimenting with governance with the Dow's like okay let's set up a governance model and see what it looks like and it turns out that in the real world example of governance there are responsibilities associated to this governance but also the salary

associated to this like when you elect the mayor of the town you gets paid and he gets paid on your own dollar so whenever we will have a be curious to see yeah Adele's started like this like okay this is going to be run as a Dow we're gonna elect some people those people will get money out of the pocket to the users but the users can have a liquid democratic way of just saying like oh you're not my you know the money doesn't represent in me anymore because you're not doing a good job or you're not voting here you you missed two votes guys come on see those empty seats at their departments now it's not fine I just asked if you were trying to build a new country secretively he's starting with a castle we're starting at the

castle oh I'll tell you about the castle if you ask me but there yeah well maybe maybe a bit later but I wanted to come back to something you were talking about earlier with regards to composability attacks you know it's I'm by no means a security expert but how do we teams like consensus diligence find that these composability attacks when no one has executed them and as the space continues to grow and there are more like money Legos like more composability attacks will emerge presumably yeah and so how do we make sure that these things don't just become like commonplace yeah I'm gonna say that there are like two two

sides to these latest attacks it just happened like in February and last week they're like arbitrage opportunities right so purely just trying to get money out of like different exchanges phasing based on arbitrage and there's actual bugs in the code what happened in the first time around so February 14th I thing was that there was actually a bug in the code the sleeper check was not working properly right so that's an actual bug and that's why the second claim to Nexus Mutual paid out now thinking about composability and this is you just gave me an opportunity for a great plug for people to go watch Bernard Mueller's talk from earlier

today a TTC Thursday I don't know 1120 something will link to it great he just presented a new feature that was big thing to me thrill Patrol is one of our security tools so it's a symbolic engine and he's able to pull on chain data and actually attest that there is an arbitrage opportunity so what I think two things the bugs were here to correct and those can be solved atomically someone comes to us with the code base and we can look at the code base and think about like the bugs that are in there and maybe some external dependencies for the arbitrage opportunities we'll start seeing a lot of bots that will start to even out the market and these attacks

will keep happening you know in a much smaller scale until like everything starts getting evened out so one of the tricky things with composability attacks is that it's really difficult to actually pinpoint one specific party who is at fault because basically anytime anyone puts a new you know money lego module on the market are they under an obligation to test this with all other modules or should there be like a stamp of approval by someone else for it right is this actually actually makes sure that this is checked that's a that's a really good hard question that we thought a lot about there should be some sort of like community bullying for this

type of thing and especially when there's things like Ave coming out right like avec comes out flesh loans guys nobody knows what this does everything broke so this was definitely not for of it to pay for anything like like this raid like it was I don't think it was it was average responsibility to pay for an audit for the composability of all these pcs right they just enabled some new patterns some security assumptions were completely broken with blab by flash loans right you always think oh he an attacker would never have this amount of money on how they do so I don't think it's office responsibility I think there should be a way we should find a way but a

community's so hard like it has been so hard for the last three years for I was like II theorem is hard in community in the theorem is harder so I don't know I don't have a good answer for it I mean when you say the hypothesis was nobody would ever have this I mean this much money I mean photo for the POS research between a Casper and the various flavors of Casper it feels like we've been considering every hypothesis and always faking like a but what if what if someone had so much money would it be able to do this to do that so I guess that we did the work on all the topics so it's kind of good that now we get to battle test this kind of hypothesis that

seemed a little bit unlikely back in the days I spoke to the Ave guys two days ago and Mark made a great point said like there's there's 7000 etherium addresses that could have did the one of these attacks what's different about flash loans that we should have had the security assumption that this can happen because there are there are accounts that have this much money yes and no you know a so so yes in the sense that this could have already have happened there are there are whales that would have the capability to perform such attacks but there's the reputational risk of doing so right usually these accounts are not really anonymous in even the

pseudonymity of it is like verse so many times compromised so if somebody would perform an attack like this there would be a reputational hit I think that's the safety factor in there that it doesn't exist anymore because like a lot of like 16 year-olds that live in their mom's basement are now thinking oh I have 10 million dollars that I can use to hack something that's a pretty flaky safety factor I mean reputation especially in the times of tornado cash and makes it look at accounts they could have done that I'm curious to see the data but I guess some of the does most of those addresses are people that got the money in the in the ICO of ETA I

mean Evan touch their accounts so luckily those investors that don't do much with their infra and just sit in hold are helping the security of various protocols but I mean we are we are not completely safe from a shady exchange to be like hey I got lots of money in my cold wallet so why am I not attacking those unfair competition they don't is there or even even centralized or decentralized what is don't know what this is may be somewhat of a contentious point but I actually think the people who are doing these attacks now obviously they're somewhat shady and but you know if they weren't they would they would give back the money but I think they're actually doing the security or

the system a favor because now it's the time you wanna find out about these composability attacks you don't want to wait until there's more money in the system right the attacker of the shanghai attack at least put in their hex data with their partner house it was like attacking the bittern blockchain we've we've insult like go back to your home don't stay in Shanghai is useless see what you're doing with the attacker stay there completely anonymous on the flash don't attack at all I'm not sure yeah I don't think we we have any data on like Oh perform the effort I've heard several people say they know but oh I'd be interested now it's via even still I think there's an opportunity for flesh lumps to make this much more accessible right so like

there's whales have like have an incentive not to break things rate because they are invested in the ecosystem - right it's it's reputational and also they're invested it's their own money they're invested in the success of the network I can not all practically anyth and still carry on these attacks and that's the whole issue here right like I could just like short eath or maybe try to buy a lot of maker and break the fight like a lot of these did the problem is that like even not not speaking flash have a lot of composability problems right they make these arise but even they could be used for something that is

like made to break some defy protocol atomically right isolated siloed they could be used like that yeah and I mean we don't we don't know what they can do right so basically I mean there's so far we've we've seen and heard about two things a Oracle manipulation which is how the pzx happened and then basically this governance hack where basically you buy a lot of maker tokens and then do like attack on the maker system as far as I know those are the only two things we have heard about and I'm sure there others so during the conference we released a private key hidden in a in a video I know if you had time to play this game private key was found in like two hours

and I was following the track of what happens to those efer they went straight to another address and then boom on by Nance I was I was a little bit yeah I was a little bit sad I would have loved to see the z4 being transferred on a compound to another cache something just didn't use it this way I wanted to ask you guys like what do you think about Oracle's and I bet the topics came coming to the discussion because um I've been thinking of maybe proposing that we include some of the relevant information like USD - - if it's apparently a very very well followed pair he was it - Eve directly in the in the extra detail of a

block so it can be used directly in the block and have the miners sign in a way or maybe use the different Oracle's that would sign the data and put this data in the block so it became as available by block directly in the block and not being brought into the production in somewhere else what do you think about it I don't have a strong opinion on Oracle's but i but i but we've been talking to to some companies that are that are getting ready to launch their decentralize options for Oracle's right so stuff like wheat net comes to mind immediately I think that chain link has a lot of head start so let's let's see how this plays out

what do you what do you think is the sort of dissect the response to the attack do you think the community and the space is responding well are taking like the right steps to prevent these things in the future or the thorough discussion and thinking around this sort of thing yeah definitely I think we're getting much better but one thing that has gone much much better is their incident response time as a as a community as a drive like I think aetherium was was very disorganized when I first started getting into the space a lot of things were wrong but then like a

people from older industries industries that are more used to having standards and in proper methodology for for a secure lifecycle of a product and development in general started trickling in they came from the aerospace industry or from the cars industry right from from the automotive industry and they brought such good practices in and I learned a lot like seriously I'm barely a security practitioner myself so I've I've been learning a lot and yeah I think we've gotten much better and this time around people were responsibly disclosing the flaws everything was handled apart from some bzx communications everything was handled

very smoothly everybody everybody got to learn really quick what the implications were and go back to older projects and now this is more from a security auditing perspective everybody got the time to go back to their older projects in check for possible nefarious interactions that's interesting that brings up an earlier point about decentralization in d5 if the incident response also relies on like specific people being contacted and being able to take action on things does that mean that we're approaching you know better decentralization or of course it's great that incident response times are getting better but do we need to move towards a future where specific

people are not required to act on these sorts of things like the attacks that's a real problem I think when it comes down to it you're gonna have to rely on specific people who are able to solve the problems that are there I mean we can't just rely on an anonymous person stepping up to fix something so I think the governance mechanisms that we develop going forward are gonna have to be able to account for responding to things like this in an efficient way and that does mean I guess like you could call it a degree of centralization but I wouldn't see it that way I would see it more as delegation of if a problem comes up we as a community decide who is going

to be able to fix this yeah but I think that should be defined by governance to some extent yeah I like the delegation of these responsibilities fallbacks if such responsible person is not available or you know thing is that it shouldn't be that we're not falling back on someone I think we're gonna need to have specific parties that we go to in order to be efficient if we want to tackle problems like this we can't just leave it until the problem comes up to then decide and have a governance vote just on this specific problem I think that's not going to make sense but so having processes in place that themselves are decentralized being able to have a governance vote around what to do if something like this comes up

beforehand and I thought the response to this was super interesting because I saw a lot of negative responses on one side but I would tend to agree with Frederica a lot more that this is actually a good thing that this came up because it brings up issues like this what do we do if this comes up in the future and how do we do this in a way that is actually in line with our values as a community and then being able to say things like okay if someone can get a flash loan for a ton of MKR and swing a maker vote well obviously that means that the governance there needs to be changed and updated and it's I think great that that's coming up now and it can be changed and addressed now compared to doing this

when it's maybe a much bigger disaster potentially I think that's a real problem to be honest like there's the security community in specific has created a posit or ease of security contacts for several companies and and some of them are still blank like big companies big Treasuries to like have no real way for us to contact them and at any point in time that's pretty scary I'd like to get all of your thoughts on on HCC and if we were to take a snapshot of the space at the moment you know what would we see in that snapshot where are we at I think I've always loved ECC as a conference

because to me it seems really focused on just being able to talk about issues which is what we we've done today and I really appreciate the conversations that I've had here and I find it's super value valuable as a conference for that I don't feel like anyone's chilling something to me and I think this year was no different than how it's been in the past and to be honest I was a little worried that it could be because they were in a much nicer location this year which is actually what you appreciated the really academic feeling of the last year's but it it turns out that we didn't need to be in a kind of rundown academic institution in order to have that vibe no I thought it was it was

wonderful it added to the the feeling that I was there just for the people just to have these conversations I wasn't there for the place and and I think this year it's much nicer and and I've appreciated that but I've had just as many really valuable conversations and even though I wasn't able to go to as many talks as I would have liked I had really great conversations with other people around the conference and I believe other talks have been recorded and have been put on YouTube so it's it's very much on my agenda to watch are the queer talks that I missed at home agreed so everything was life recorded and posted the same day that's really impressive because there are conferences

and I'm not going to name them that take a really long time to post the content I agree with that Cassidy was saying is like if Cece was always the conference that I went to with the strongest technical content year after year the venue changing didn't change anything about it congratulations Jerome it's always amazing thank you for your kind words you'll all be invited again next year so but did the change of the venue we we had a lot of complain less here and the year before that the venue was pretty cool but hard to get around in especially because the the rooms were very apart from each other so sometimes

people got lost and and honestly the school is not managed to gather so many people so when we have the fire alarm or you have any problem it's it's really a mess whereas the venue this here is way more professional owned by a professional company of event organizers like GL event so definitely it looks way more professional but it was also a test for us because the school that we were supposed to host it in the same school was having renovation work so we had to find a new place and we said like well let's let's let's try to ramp up our game and try to see if we if we can host it in a very professional place meaning that it will cost a little bit more money so the tickets were a little bit

more expensive than last year 20 euro more and we wanted to and also we expected to have maybe 20% more attendees so we had we had 700 in the first year 12 already the second year so we were like 1,600 looks it looks feasible so let's let's have a bigger venue and maybe you also planned for 2021 that we keep this same venue and instead of packing everything or in the first three days around just three days let's take the venue for the whole week and unpack the thing on maybe five days and keep it up on the weekend for workshops and all those stuff so that's what we had in mind and as as you may know there was a pandemic outbreak during the demands before and during the

week and I'm glad to to say that we we survived this this dynamic outbreak so far we'll see we'll see in two weeks yeah it's nobody died at HCC yet I hope nobody will die um I hope did off a couple times and I got some looks I was in a booth and I was coughing the entire week so we had we given pretty explicit best practices don't cough on each other don't steal don't don't share the tissues don't share the needles like make sure they say you're really good about like not touching hands though I

mean that like if there's one thing that that marked this conference it was elbow bumping and I wonder if in future in future HCC additions people will continue to do the elbow Buffy me being the the director of hugs at consensus entitle me to an email from the legal department asking me not to hug people I do want to point out that while nobody was was touching and you know that was all fine and good and everybody was like washing their hands and everything everybody used the same spoon to pick up to grab their food again so many challenges everyone's an epidemiologists

and these times isn't I mean and basically people came up to me and they were talking like the elbow bump thing and yours a little bit awkward and then you know after you know like trying this a minute oh you know what come here and then they give you an enormous hug so I'm not sure I'm not sure that uh well you cannot avoid the gun sorrow or grief green all the time at some point you just get Huggins there was also a second external hiccup namely that eath Paris was cancer like two weeks before can we talk about that I mean do we want to get into the drama of it yes so I I heard that actually quite a few people were upset because Eastin were charged so much for their

sponsorships that they felt that there was a run over to eath paris and that the reason why they weren't able to raise asthma as much as they had wanted to be able to host the event was in part due to eath denver charging so much I wonder if you've you've heard the Samer if you totally disagree a oh so I just before jumping into this topic yeah I just want to say one last thing about when a virus if I myself the more pleasant conversation yeah we're just like we had what twelve to thirteen percent of cancellation among the speakers not not counting the one that showed up in the room and the room was empty so they didn't wanted to do the talks we will we will revise the number later so like it's roughly sake so the speakers that didn't come some of them

were very famous ones that we were very happy to have and we couldn't because personal reasons because fear because reasonable doubt about their alpha or because company policy that tell us did not come but nevertheless we managed to have most of them by video remotely we integrate it to the talks it's it's not as good but still we managed to produce the content so that's fine and a lot of them actually had to get up in the middle of the night for that so I mean there were a lot of drugs from the states and they they happen at 2 a.m. local time or something yeah which showed the dedication of those speakers and I'm very happy that we still managed to do that and from from our side we invested heavily on time trying to bring the Chinese

community the Japanese community the South Korean community and the Taiwanese make them aware of the event and in hope that they will come and finally we will bring them to France for SCC because this is what is being what is it lacking it every year and this year we failed miserably because of the virus but nevertheless we'll go again next year yeah I'm I maybe I shouldn't get into this but Verta picking up on what Cassidy said that's entirely true and I've never never met John Paul ever like he got really upset at me on Twitter because I said that there was a lot of centralization in funding the East chapters if global chapters in and I think that's true because like what you

was a company to is that you allocate a certain amount for community efforts right for marketing if one person asks for a big piece of the pie obviously the pieces of the pie that are left for the smaller chapters there are going to be a lot less trade in in we felt that trying to get trying to booty fleas burn up a lot of people back out of sponsoring in some other said that they just simply didn't have the cash to do it after eath Denver and and all the other chapters but there were also companies who actually did not sponsor eath Denver because of that so we actually we had gnosis we thought about it and then in the end we didn't

because we thought we could get much better value elsewhere so each Paris last year was organized by each global and it went very smoothly like well we at eternam France we took the responsibility of the contract because setting up a legal entity and taking the contract and so on we already added so we took a gathering and video and and some of the fees for the venue we took it on our account but we we let each global raise money for the photos from the sponsors and it distribute the walls and let they organize them then what they wanted to do word so right after it Paris like we announced it we're gonna do each CC again and we started to get in touch with his global

on organizing its Paris and weary waited for a long time before having what seems to be a confirmation that we're going to do it and then think they were really committing on doing it so we move forward with other partners and other organizers and other Couture and so on and unfortunately they bluntly decided to not do it Paris in late December and do it London the weekend before instead which was really a huge surprise from us so we were left unorganized and fought like damn we need to find someone to organize a socket on because it's EC is already a big big push to do so in early January the Department of design of this very nicely raised their hands and said

like yeah we're gonna try to see what we can do and unfortunately it was it was too late for them to actually manage to to lend the minimum amount that we required to to actually organize this and I don't know if that's because of it ever but I really think thought of trying to do so and in the end I was just like well people going to London and getting food poisoned that's a never mind and a lot of people from the EF came back from London saying like well I'm super heel and like I cannot do my salt can I be risk at all can I be it's gonna be dead so like I would say it's Karma maybe but in the end we are we are lending at Paris anyway I'm not gonna let anyone tell us that we

cannot do hackathon we are going to do in the hanukkah town so this first next Saturday and I'm gonna announce that this at the end the closing closing speech we're gonna still go to the venue and host workshop on discovering it in room for all the students that applied for it Paris and they are in town and one learn more about the curiam and anyone that wants to have a workshop or present what they are doing they are more than welcome to do so so it's very still happening little like Paris but still at Paris are there any things you'd like to leave our listeners on what's next for all of you where are you heading to next any any other exciting conferences or events that you're gonna attend if they're not cancelled the dealy team will is excited

about the solidity summit in Berlin so I think we'll we'll have the whole team there and we're gonna think about some solidity April 29th and 30th I think so join us for some security fun in Berlin nice I think I'm gonna go to this event as well if I'm allowed to travel I don't know but I'll probably give it because I really love solidity issues and on my side the next step will definitely be preparing for HCC next year and I hope that all the people that hear about it see see or listen to this podcast will mark their agenda as he sees happening every year the first week of March and

we opened the call for speaker around November I'm not really looking at any events in the near future I of course I'm always excited for Berlin blockchain week which is gonna up at the end of the summer but that's pretty far out so in terms of the the near-term I think I'm just gonna be heads down working on our lunch school you know a half of humanity could you know vanished bye-bye then congratulations gentleman putting on this really great event I mean we were super happy to be here and we'll be here next year and the year after as long as I live 20 minutes away I'll keep coming Thank You Jerome yeah thank you as

lovely as always I'm also very much looking forward to Berlin blockchain week so this year it's September 8 to 16 I really like ECC because it's got this community spirit and I think you know from out of other conferences actually Def Con M comes closest to that so basically that's also fatty affordable prices and it's a lot of the development community it's absolutely no sheis so yeah but in blockchain week is where it's at thanks to all of you thank you for joining us on this week's episode we released new episodes every week you can find and subscribe to the show on iTunes Spotify YouTube SoundCloud or wherever you listen to podcasts and if you have a

Google home or Alexa device you can tell if to listen to the latest episode of the epicentre podcast go to epicenter TV slash subscribe for a full list of places where you can watch and listen while you there be sure to sign up for the newsletter so you get new episodes in your inbox as they're released if you want to interact with us guests or other podcast listeners you can follow us on Twitter and please leave us a review on iTunes helps people find the show and we're always happy to read them but thanks so much and we look forward to being back next week [Music]