ep 31 - Communicating in Crypto, and Beyond

Transcript

[Music] welcome to web 3 with A6 and Z they show about building the Next Generation the internet from the team at A6 andz crypto that includes me your host sonal Choy today's episode is relevant to all our listeners and Beyond which is on how to communicate well especially for crypto but also for other technical Industries or distributed and remote and hybrid workplaces especially since crypto involves decentralized orgs which may also apply to the future of work and it's also really about open source and doing things like Community calls to discuss changes sometimes mixed with newcomers and strangers contributing so how do you present information to different types of stakeholders speak spontaneously Andor resolve and recover from conflicts on the spot I invited our

friend Matt Abrams author of the new just released book think faster talk smarter how to speak successfully when you're put on the spot he also hosts a popular podcast by a similar name think fast talk smart which you should also subscribe to Matt is not only a lecture at Stanford Business School but he works with lots of companies and leaders on these topics including strategic communication persuasive communication interpersonal communication and more as a reminder none of the following should be taken as business legal investment or tax advice please see A6 nc.com disclosures for more important info plus a link to a list of our investments and finally while this episode is meant to stand alone it also continues partly a conversation that Matt and I did on the old show I built the a6c podcast back in

member 2020 at the height of the pandemic when people suddenly shifted to communicating only on Zoom so that episode covered more formal communication like how to moderate talks panels meetings as well as non-verbal communication and virtual settings but in this episode we focus much more on informal spontaneous communication as well as more technical communication and while we spend most of the time on specific templates tactics and tools that anyone can use we began the first 10 minutes quickly setting some key context as especially since crypto is not just about code but it's really about people coordinating with each other at unprecedented scale it's a very human thing Matt welcome and could you quickly share why this topic matters

first sonel it is such a pleasure to be back with you and I love the fact that we're going to spend some time having one of our typical conversations but we're just going to let other people in to hear it yeah they get to EES drop on it so as you alluded to communication is all about connecting and making sure that people are on the same page I think that's a really appropriate Focus to have in crypto communication is Central to making sure things run efficiently and effectively and if that's your goal rather than saying it right whatever that is then you're likely to be more successful and that's why it's so important that people develop some skills and put some focus on it so that they can actually do the good work that they're trying to do and not have to fix

the errors mistakes and mishaps that result from not communicating and then the other big unlock for from a mindset point of view is many of us see communication as a threat people are asking us questions they're leveling objections they're asking for feedback that is hard for us to give and we see it as a challenge or a threat instead those are perfect opportunities to connect to explore and it's not to say that people aren't actually coming at us with some spice and some concern but even in those moments it allows us to further the conversation rather than blocking it you know what's great about what you said just to kind of ground it for our listeners even more I know a top engineering leader in crypto longtime

crypto person who whenever I see him in sessions even when we're in like an impromptu setting where like you have an audience Q&A and you're just asking a speaker a question before he raises his hand he'll write his bullet points down on his phone he'll like organize his thoughts and then do it and you're also kind of saying that maybe you can be a little bit more loose and flexible in how we approach a conversation because you don't want to have all this bandwidth where I love the analogy of bandwidth because that's another tech native way of thinking about it why are you unnecessarily loading this BWI that you're actually more focused on organizing it so tightly that you're losing the opportunity to actually really participate and so that really resonates and I bring that up Matt

because your whole thrust of your new book is about spontaneous communication impromptu communication how to speak informally what is the difference relative to quote formal communication so a formal communication to me is a planned pitch presentation meeting with an agenda where you've spent some time in advance really thinking about the detailed content that you want to deliver and perhaps even practice but if you think about it most of what we do in our daily life and in the work we do is spontaneous it happens in the moment somebody asks you a question somebody asks for feedback you're making chitchat or small talk at some kind of Meetup or mixer or we make a mistake and we have to fix that FAA that's what I mean by

spontaneous communication and I've worked with many crypto leaders actually to help them develop the muscles around this whereas they might be great at pitching or they can get through some kind of presentation that they might be giving to customers but when it comes to in the- moment responding to objections that's where Things Fall Apart and it goes back to this notion of you can still prepare to be spontaneous and that's a bit ironic but think of any athletic Endeavor you've ever done you do drills right I mean you dribble the ball around the cones and then in the game the cones are people and they move and you have to adjust and adapt so training for spontaneous communication is something that you can do yeah I want

to dig in on what for just one more minute of how you can actually add structure to spontaneous conversation and you use the analogy in your book of jazz which is probably more resonant for me than Sports because I'm not really a sporty person but I also think it really resonates in crypto specifically because when I think of crypto I do think of it as this really interesting orchestration between innovating under these incredibly hard constraints like you have gas fees you have constraints about bandwidth and scale and Speed and Performance and yet you're finding ways to be Innovative within that so that's another example of that beautiful Jazz that plays out that you can have these guard rails and then you also have this freedom and in fact from a personal point of view Matt I'll share this with you because you're a friend but did you

ever read mine langle books when you were growing up I did yeah yeah yeah do you remember I think it was wrinkle in time but one of the main characters the analogy they used was that life is like a sonnet where you have this very strict form you know 14 lines and you have iic pentameter blah blah blah but then it's up to you to fill in what you say within it which I thought was a really nice analogy for thinking about this balance between spontaneity and structure I love it and it's great that you can take me back to my childhood but but you're right I mean Jazz musicians learn chord progressions they learn what sounds good with what and then in the moment they create something specific to that and and in many ways I think anybody in the crypto space is doing the same thing so

that's what we mean by spontaneity well let's talk about some of the structures for organizing that you devote in your book which I love because we're Frameworks people here in this world and we love sharing Frameworks a lot of specific Frameworks and structures that people can use almost like templates but before we go to types of structures and templates I want to ask you quickly about the art of listening especially since we did not get to cover that in our previous conversations yeah so the more and more I do this work the more critical I am seeing that the role of listening is and the reality is this we listen just enough to get the gist of what somebody

is saying and look for ways that we can then contribute our responses we judge we evaluate we rehearse we're not truly listening and by doing so we miss out on several things one we miss out on connecting we also might miss out on what's really needed in the moment let me give you an example imagine Sono you and I come out of a meeting and you ask me you say hey Matt how do you think that went and I immediately hear sonel wants feedback well son I thought it went okay but I really think you could have done this better we could have done that but had I really listened to what you were saying but also how you were saying it I might have realized that in that moment you did not want feedback what you really wanted was support and by me giving you critical feedback in

that moment I actually did harm rather than good I have a colleague at the business school his name is Collins dos he teaches crucial communication and he uses this framework that I asked him if I could borrow to talk about listening it's Pace space Grace not only do I like it because it it Rhymes but it really helps us listen better so Pace means slow things down when when we slow down it really allows us to connect it allows us to be present and that's where listening happens you have to then give yourself some space and this could be physical space move to an environment where you can actually really hear the person but also mental space Focus your attention on what's being said perhaps

what's not being said and then finally is grace and grace is giving yourself permission to also listen to what's happening inside yourself your intuition so if somebody says something and that doesn't feel right then maybe you ask a follow-up question you know if somebody says oh yeah things are great like that doesn't feel like things are great let me follow up and see what's really going on so Pace space Grace is a way to really look at listening in an active way that allows you to better connect to better be present and ultimately to make sure that you're responding in the right way that's fantastic you know who's really good at this Matt because you know her too and we we both are fond of her is our friend Kim she's a CMO A6 crypto but she's probably one of the

best listeners I know and not in a way that's passive cuz there are some listeners where you feel like they just take it in and you're not really looking for a listener you're just looking for a sponge and they don't really give you any comment it's the exact opposite it's like a real deep listener but she's not like a noisy active listener it's just like a very calm present right listener and she really hears like the intent behind the words too it's quite remarkable actually I think Kim is fantastic for many reasons but her listening is really really in dep without being intrusive and she has the ability of really focusing on what's the Crux what's the key issue being discussed here and that's a skill you can drill you know I encourage my students to listen to a podcast like

this one and pause it and then think to yourself what's the bottom line here what's the key issue or topic that's being discussed and if you drill that and train your brain to really look for that as you're listening it becomes second nature so you can do what Kim does and I actually think you're very good at this too of coming down to what the Essence is that's something we can all develop I'm only good at in these settings Matt I'm terrible in meetings and I want to come back to that impr promptu context but what are some advice you might give about listening that's specific to CEOs and Leaders with engineering and Technical groups and then with like marketing comms Community what would be some advice you might give to Taylor listening in those settings I mean there's obviously these universals but just based on your work with all

these different types of people what are some themes that you've seen this is such an awesome question I want everybody to hear the question that son just asked she just asked how do you listen differently based on the audience that you are listening to we so often if we think about it at all we think about how do you change your message when you are speaking or writing this is a very different question there's a a wonderful thinker and Communicator about listening his name is Julian treasure I love his line he says what is the listening that you are speaking into and that's a fantastic way to look at this and your question gets at that so let me answer the question I like how you said it but yeah tell me more so if

you're speaking to senior leaders a CEO Executives you need to be thinking about when they're listening they're listening from a very active point of view they're are looking for what is it that I can do to help in this circumstance what are the things that I need to be concerned with what are the priorities that I need to be coming away with or providing as a result of what I'm hearing and if that's what somebody is listening for the priorities how they can actually act on or decisions to be made you need to tee that up as your communicating into that so you might come in and say I have three fundamental questions that I would like for us to answer in this interaction because you're setting them up for what they're listening for right

if you come in with just a Litany of challenges and issues you're not helping them you're making them do hard work to figure out what are the decisions to be made what are the priorities to find so with lead ERS that's something to focus on with engineers and people who are building things scientists people who are in the trenches you need to be thinking about their mindset and I hate to stereotype but often engineer scientists like to solve problems so can you tee up your information in a way that's presenting the problems and choices as you see it so they can more easily digested and then respond and then finally if you're talking to sales marketing HR they often are interested in Opportunities what's the potential

here so can I frame what I'm saying in terms of choices of potential and possibility and that will help them again listen in a way that's congruent to what they're listening for so you're absolutely right we need to be thinking about how people are listening and what they're listening for and adjust our communication accordingly I was amazed you answered that so quickly Matt I thought you about to ask me for more time to think about your answer and you just had an answer I I do this work a little bit son yeah you do you do a little bit of me okay let's just go into the specifics now like real concrete tactical specifics and structures so what are some of the best organizing structures that you've seen if you're talking to X you can do y if you're talking to Z you can do a like so on and

so forth well let me start by saying what I mean by a structure to me a structure is nothing more than a logical connection of ideas many of us when we communicate we just list out information we just provide a list and lists are not very useful because our brains are literally not wired for lists our brains are wired for story for logical connection among ideas and so there are many structures that you can use the one that most of us are most familiar with is if you're trying to convince people of something is problem solution benefit there's an issue a challenge I'll describe it I then explain how we believe we can address or fix it and then here are the benefits by taking

this approach problem solution benefit that's a good logical structure if anybody has ever pitched or persuaded you've probably used some version of that similarly if you're having a discussion about a decision that needs to be made you can use comparison contrast conclusion here are two choices here's how they're similar here are the very same choices but here's how they're different and here's the conclusion that I have one of the biggest challenges we have and you laid out a lot of the challenges that those in crypto have being hybrid being in teams that are are spread out all over the place having to leverage different types of Technology one of the big challenges we have is we're being bombarded with so much information if you're not concise and clear it's hard for people to digest

what you're saying so structure helps you package up information for the audience in a way that they can consume it remember it and hopefully act on it oh my God I just realized like I've worked with you over the years mostly for live stage events but I've never worked with you on this because I was just thinking to myself how I'm good at that when it comes to writing and editing in podcast or written form but when it comes to live talking I'm terrible at structure and I've heard from a million people that when I write in unstructured Communications like slacks and emails and live meetings where I have to answer things in promptu I'm terrible at providing that concision I'm just very bad at it and I'm just only mentioning this because if a quote season speaker

like me struggles I can't imagine how other people must feel all the time oh absolutely I call this the F-word of communication and it's not that naughty one it's Focus it's all about focus and Fidelity many of us in spontaneous speaking situations are figuring out what we want to say as we're saying it and so we end up saying a lot more than we mean to yes that's exactly what happens so think of a structure as a recipe if you have a recipe you are likely to make a better meal than if you're just throwing something together it doesn't mean that you're going to say the same thing every time just like if you and I cook the same dish from the same recipe it's not going to come out the same way but we have a better chance of having success for having had that recipe you

know my mother has this saying I know she didn't create it but her saying is tell me the time don't build me the clock you know I've worked with a ton of people in crypto people start building clocks almost from the get-go yes right and you can get lost if you don't know the time first and if people are interested in how you built the clock they'll ask and then you can go into that detail so start from a structured place first that's great yes focus is the word and what's the other one Fidelity Fidelity accuracy you know when we communicate we assume that everybody knows what we're talking about and that's not the case crypto is rampant with acronyms and jargon so Fidelity is all about accuracy and Clarity of what I'm communicating we need to strive for clarity which means checking our jargon

checking our acronyms to make sure that the audience understands I want to push back on that though and add a caveat which is I agree in general because I used have these religious debates all the time with people in the content world around like oh I don't want to quote dumb it down and I'm like you're not you're not taking anything away it's an additive thing you're bringing people along I talk about this in all my talks however in crypto in particular I've been in this space for a very long time there is an Insider jargon that matters and that actually is a way to signal to your tribe and in fact it's also a way to sometimes ensure your conversation is meant to be quote nerd snipy like you're having a conversation to bring more people of a similar ilk to that group and so in those cases that jargon that

lingo that matters so if you make a conscious choice to use terminology acronym's jargon to Signal we versus them or I'm part of you or to draw people in great but that's a strategic Choice here's the problem most people I work with in the crypto space and elsewhere do it out of habit and they do so at an inappropriate time for Their audience and it can work against you so I have no problem as long as it's strategic yeah well on that note one line that really jumped out in your book and this is a great point to prob you on it was avoid the default response yeah and that was a really interesting line because you meant it I think in the context of corporate tees and jargon but can you say more about that because I

think that's also something that we contend within this industry so I could say a lot about this go to town so let me start at the highest levels many of us rely on heris a typical response when it comes to communication one is it is what it is oh yeah the only way to get through sometimes in crypto got to say that but these little sayings actually preclude us from connecting we think we are expressing empathy but we're not we're actually building distance it fulfills the obligation to demonstrate I heard you but it doesn't really add much it doesn't move the conversation along and it certainly doesn't lead to creativity and collaboration the way that a specific engaged well formulated response can so I challenge everybody

when you're in a spontaneous speaking situation to see what comes up and then ask yourself is this the most effective way to accomplish whatever the goal as I have in this moment and maybe it is but at least question it so you don't go farther by the way just do the counterfactual on this what's the worst thing that happens if you say nothing that actually leaves more room I mean I'm curious to hear your thoughts yeah and it empowers the other person to say more you know I take a lot from the world of improv and I've learned from great Masters my co- teer Adam Tobin and somebody else I work with Dan Klein they've taught me so much about improv there's a saying in improv I love it's don't just do something stand there what that's interesting you know it strikes me that this technique would work

particularly well in settings with mixed groups like strangers well so let me just Echo the importance of leaving that space especially when you're in a hybrid setting where there are people in a room who can actually have that engaged interaction and the other people who are remote don't have that opportunity so leaving the silence are actually purposely engaging those folks allows you to hear really important ideas and voices that we might not hear in other words sometimes the most important thing you can do is be quiet I interviewed a woman who also teaches at Stanford Deborah shiffrin she was a former NPR reporter and she said her secret superpower when doing interviews was the silent pause and in that pause one because it was awkward people would say

more or two because they felt like hey I really have the floor and somebody really is concerned with what I'm saying so sometimes pausing sometimes asking a clarifying question sometimes paraphrasing all of those are tools to make sure you're responding in an appropriate way that is addressing the issue at hand and these default First Response knee-jerk reactions get in the way of that yeah the other question I am often asked is how do I insert myself into a conversation that's going on because here's what most people tell me is they want to say something but nobody gives them space to say something and then the train has left the station and and by the time the floor comes to them the topic is now moved away yes yes that happens a ton in crypto yes keep going

so let me give three suggestions on how you do it if you need to wedge your idea into a conversation that's flowing and going and you really want to put your point out there first lead with a question so you could say how could we do that or what are the consequences of if we do leading with a question gives you permission to assert yourself because it's relevant to what's being said that's number one lead with the question anchored there yep exactly the is to lead with an emotion I'm excited about that or I'm concerned about that the emotion gives you permission to speak up at that moment and then finally a paraphrase so you extract something that people said and then comment on it so it's questioning it's leading with an emotion it's paraphrasing those are the politest ways I know to wedge yourself

into a communication that's fantastic you know I have a concrete example here which you should go back and listen to if you're interested in this which is Tim boo of ethereum Foundation we've had him on the podcast that talk about the process of the merge the backstory of the ethereum merge and more but he runs these all core developers calls and they're just like really good what you have is this very deep passionate points of view multiple stakeholders that's a whole model of ethereum like it's a multic client very diverse kind of ecosystem it's just amazing to hear like a lot of these practices you're talking about I don't know if he's ever got any training or if it's just intuitive to him because I imagine some people are just good at that but yeah that'd be a good example to listen to is listen to

those ethereum allcore developers calls and our episode with Tim Boo for a little bit more context on that I appreciate you highlighting that point I think it's really important to seek out good examples of communication and really spend some time reflecting on what the people are doing or not doing that make it good one of the mindset shifts I recommend people consider is what are the standards by which you are evaluating your communication I have so many people who say well you know there's that Ted talk or Steve Jobs and all of those are planned practiced prepared coached if you're applying that as success when you're speaking in the moment answering a question fixing a mistake is the wrong rubric you're making yourself feel bad when in fact

you could be improving if you were to see some of these real world examples as you're pointing out well I also want to highlight your point back what great about that is you find the people that you want to be like you're not trying to be someone you're not but that doesn't mean we can't learn and get better from other people absolutely that's very helpful okay why don't we continue talking about let's go back to their frame RK okay so you shared problem solution benefit where you evoke an issue offer a solution and end by discussing the benefit that your quote solution will confer that's what you have in your book you mentioned it's very common people use it in pitches I want to mention that that's also what people use when they're recruiting candidates or like someone who has a career crisis or they're trying to think

about their next move which is especially true for seniors candidates it's also very true for sales just selling a product selling an idea so I think that's a good example of that framework I don't know if you have any other examples you might say on that one you know trying to convince people to support your effort that you have getting people to consider alternative points of view for decisions that have to be made okay then the other one you mentioned already was comparison contrast conclusion you know Begin by reflecting on the similarities and the differences wrapping up your speech by coming to a conclusion it's funny you didn't mention and I don't think you should because you're not as deeply immersed in crypto for me the example that resonates with the crypto world the conversation happening all the time with Builders around what chain they're going

to build on and how they make their choice of chain which is a topic we've covered on this podcast and it's really fascinating because there's not a clear right answer the only answer this one answer it really depends on so many factors timing consideration of where things will be the ecosystem and when I hear those conversations I actually wonder if more people did the simple classic essay from high school compare contrast conclude it would make their conversations go so much more smoothly I completely agree and even though it's something that many of us learned a long time ago there's a reason we learned it this goes way back to the ancient Greeks you know in terms of argumentation so so it's got some legs and because of that I think we should consider it but there

are lots of structures that can help you the two that we mentioned I think are great there are many other structures that are helpful you know my favorite structure the whole world and we did talk about this it's three simple questions what so what now what imagine you're a crypto developer and you have to give an update to people on a particular feature you're considering adding the what is the feature the so what is why it's important and relevant and the now what is the decision that has to be made or the advantages of implementing it or showing somebody a demonstration so it's a way of packaging things up very quickly and concisely what so what now what think about emails I get emails all the time that are very complex I'm trying to figure out what does the person want if they were to

structure it using what so what now what it would be much more helpful so imagine the subject line is the now what it's what they're asking me to do and then the body of the email is the what they're describing what it is they're talking about and then the so what why it's important to me that helps you can also use this structure to give feedback for me it helps me think very quickly on how to respond and for you it packages it up in a nice way for you to remember it so you can act on it so we come out of a meeting and you really do want feedback from me the what is my feedback I might say you know son in the meeting you did a great job except when you talked about the implementation plan you didn't give as much detail as you did in

the other parts and you spoke quickly that's my what the so what would be and when you speak quickly without detail people might think you're not as prepared as you should be that's the so what and then the now what would be is next time slow down and I want you to include example a and example B in the implementation plan that's the now what so it's a structure that can be used in many many different ways I love that and of course I've heard you talk about that many times for good reason because it's a very powerful framework what I've always loved about it and this is always my pet peeve when it comes to written communication you'd be amazed Matt at how many for get this it drives me insane maybe they're too close to the subject matter Etc they always miss the

why it matters and what I love about your framework is it gets right to why it matters soad is another way of saying why it matters basically that's right I don't want to get too academic here but we have known for for decades that if you make a message relevant and Salient to the people you're talking to they will pay more attention to it they are more likely to remember it and they're more likely to act on it so you really have to focus on what's relevant and important to them and this structure really bakes it in yeah and I'm going to keep going because this is such an important one I think is worth really diving a little deep on the nowat is also critical in crypto I would argue because a lot of the hand waving criticism that people get isn't deserved I think but sometimes it's a mismatch in

styles of communication and people not communicating in these best practices and ways that you're sharing so for instance a great idea but literally no idea not only why it matters but actually what are really the Practical implications where how to concretely tie it to like what's happening now I mean just give you a concrete example like whenever we talk about zero knowledge we always make sure that we talk about this topic at zero knowledge this is what it is here's why it matters it's actually a big thing it means more but it actually has all these practical implications that imply to this this this and this and I think that's a very good frame more people should do that because we do lose our way somewhere and this is a very simple kind of threea play to keep things moving and actually just sorry to

keep pounding this one more time the analogy of the bandwidth applies here too because when I think about the additional friction like actually in edits I call this making the reader make too many inferential leaps yeah you're making them do the work in between the logic and the points you're making when you should really be the one making those as quickly and efficiently for them as possible so that they can free their mind to absorb the big idea the exciting things the things that they can do with this idea versus just trying to make sense of it you are so right we make life hard for our listeners for our readers which works against us now I want to be very clear you don't dumb things down it's not about simplifying it's about making things accessible and

I think this is where crypto really needs to focus because a lot of what goes on when you're talking to people who aren't immersed in the field it can be very complex I was also looking for even like a very concrete example so lots of things you can do you can deconstruct it you can break it down you can diagram it you can use analogies and metaphors these are the ways you make something accessible without dumbing it down I will do you one better and throw a line from your book back out you I love this line that you have which is never lose your tour group yeah and think I think you were a tour guide at one point I was so in college I was desperate for money and it was the highest paying job I could get and they trained us literally for three months it

was very militaristic wow yeah I can still to this day so know walk backwards in a straight line because of that training and talk at the same time but they said the most important thing is never lose your tour group you're a bad tour guide if you get people lost and the same is true in our communication it's so easy to get people lost and we have to keep them together how do we do that we provide a structure we make it relevant for them we make sure they understand our language and the terminology we're using we make things accessible you know so many of us set as a goal for success of our communication just to get through it like the goal is just to get the information out there and if that's your goal you're going to fail because it means people aren't

digesting it they aren't processing it they're not likely to act on it so you end up having to clean up the mess I would much rather the goal be that people actually learn from you they understand they take the information in so that you can get collaborative and actually Matt I don't know if you remember in our last conversation we talked a lot about the usefulness of like a nav and how when you have like a navigation system and someone's sharing directions it's more frustrating for someone to be told turn right turn left without actually saying in about three streets you're going to turn right you're going to look up ahead we're going to make this corner because that actually reduces people's anxiety but it also gives them a little bit of an overview and I remember sharing cuz I use this too editorial I always describe it as a map in the

terrain paragraph where you're orienting your reader into the map and the terrain of the space so they actually know how your point fits into the broader yes landscape and I think that also applies very strongly to your tour group analogy oh absolutely I interviewed for the book a woman who is in editorial for the Dummies book series many of folks that the cool thing about the dummies books is there lots of different ways to get the material they do a great job I think of people finding their way through their book and she calls it wayfinding so the wayfinding you're talking about really really important you know if you're a hiker or Mountaineer part of what we have to do as people who set up our communication is we have to make it easy for the audience to find their way

through our material and one of the biggest things we need to do is we need to connect the ideas together as a former tour guide the place you lose people the most is when you move from one place to the next they literally wander off the same is true in our messaging if you don't connect where you've been to where you're going people get uncomfortable they get curious and leave so this bridging and transitioning is so important so often if we do anything we'll say so next second but that doesn't logically connect the ideas and structure one of the benefits of structure is the structure builds in a connection if I talk about the problem I can easily connect the solution to the problem and keep you with me yeah I love what you just said there though about

the structure builds it in because what you're saying is that it actually it's inherent where one CU leads to the next because they're logically linked I finally understand Matt now why you said earlier that a list is not a structure I totally get it because at first I was like of course it's a structure procon blah blah blah it has logic to it but actually they don't connect to each other they're at the end of the day arbitrary groupings you got it thank you ding ding ding and I'm gonna I'm gonna have to make sure I explained that better I I'm sorry you were confused I mean I get it it's just that I'm a list maker and I love lists and I'm a big believer in the checklist Manifesto and having lists and launch list list very powerful tools exactly but all those examples you just gave are examples for

yourself when I am trying to communicate information to another person giving a list of information is not as helpful it's fascinating by the way because on another podcast I did back in the day with Annie Duke the famous poker player and she also does a lot of decision making work and she wrote a book on how to decide one of her biggest takeaways is a list is the absolute worst way to make decisions too yeah and I can see that fascinating okay so going back now to more structures you have like a whole section in the book like whole chapter devoted to it so we just talked about what so what now what we talked earlier about comparison contrast conclusion we've already talked about problem solution benefit you also have on this list Point reason example Point can you share that structure yes so Point reason

example Point prep is you make a point you give a rationale or reason for that point you give an example and then you remind people of the point so if I am in the midst of a discuss a debate this is a way of really reinforcing the point that I'm making we often assert points or perspective without supporting it and you've actually asked me to do this a few times today where you've asked for clarification or an example because examples really light things up but an example without a connection that is a reason the why behind the what if you will can lay flat so the example helps us to understand the reason helps us to remember and then repetition is always

important so prep is prep as in point reason example Point yeah keep going exactly it's a really good structure when you're having an in the- moment conversation debate or discussion to help you really drive home the points without again it being a list because I can just list my points but that's not helpful but if I follow prep then it can help me make those points really stick with the people I'm talking to great two more really quick yeah you use the example how in the legal world there's a structure that's irac Iraq that goes issue rule apply conclude can you talk about that one and I bring it up Matt because a lot of crypto people are actually rooted in legal or they're dealing with legal and they're often talking about issues resolution just

given the context the environment regulatory even yeah so Iraq again issue and then you give the rule that's the legal Rule and then how it's applied and then give your conclusion so you want to define the issue so everybody's clear on what it is you're talking about you then apply whatever rule precedent law that applies to it and then you want to talk about how has this been applied in the real world you know a lot of the rules in the law themselves the precedent are separate from the how they're applied so you talk about in this case this is how it's applied and then you come up with some kind of conclusion that again repeats what initially started it in the first place which is the issue at hand so it's a derivative of prep if you will yeah but essentially serving the same

purpose got it and when are the cases when you see people using this example like where do you see this happening in our world so I see it in high-tech all the time when high functioning engineering teams are discussing and debating ways to do things if you can make your point if you can explain your reason for your point and then give an example of what it might look like and come back to your point it's a really nice way to package up a discussion or a debate I see this all the time in standups I see this in strategic planning but it really it doesn't mean people are going to agree with you but it certainly means that people understand your perspective better yeah certainly better than arguing on emotion and attachment which is not the way to win convert people persuade them Etc

again I'm a seasoned communicator but I actually struggle with this stuff I'm very passionate but also because I have to tell people sometimes like Hey we're in brainstorm mode and when we're in brainstorm mode I like it to be a little messy and nonlinear and all over the place but then when you're actually in a mode where you're trying to move to a conclusion it doesn't do any benefit to conflate those two modes yeah although that does lead me to a question related to this which is is there room to inject in Motion in all this like is this like talking clinically no certainly I've worked with many crypto companies and a lot of the time when I'm coaching them on their pitches and other things I ask them what's the emotion you're trying to touch here and some are talking about excitement or confidence or insecurity

sometimes it's a burning platform if we don't do this we'll be in trouble so emotion can factor into these structures very easily so take problem solution benefit we've talked talked about that several times if I can make the problem emotional for you so you experience an emotion you feel frustration concern excitement at the possible resolving of it then you're going to pay attention in a very different way and you're going to remember it in a very different way when I use what so what now what the so what can be Laden with lots of emotion this is important because this is our cause or this is changing information it's a passion that infects people it's a movement yeah yeah you know a great example of emotion being used I saw many years ago from Brian Armstrong founder

of coinbase he does a great job of his conviction of why crypto is so important in the financial space he talks about The Liberation that can come through currencies like Bitcoin Etc to really help those who don't have access to financial markets like some of us who do who live in the United States and elsewhere so emotion can certainly play out in the discussion and in the structures that you use great by the way you should print up cards on this because having this as a little cheat sheet in front of me but one last one what about situation task action result star so of all the structures when I ask people about a structure that they use commonly situation task analysis results

the star method comes up very very frequently it is one that I think is taught in universities for interviewing and answering questions or for giving updates you define the situation that you're addressing or the answer that you're giving the tasks that took place or need to take place you analyze the success or or the details of what happened and then you talk about the results it's a very nice way of packaging up and summarizing information it's not one of my favorites personally because it just doesn't feel comfortable for me but you got to find what works for you I'm a what so what now what guy and that's great for me but situation task analysis results to me it's a little rigid and frigid that doesn't have a lot of conversational tone to say

it doesn't have like an emotional heft to it either I mean bluntly Matt I love that you published one of your articles in hbr I'm a huge fan of one of the editors there and some of the articles that like my colleague SC commenters writes there all the time I'm a huge fan I do get frustrated with what I call hbr speak in meetings when you have like these people that talk like business meeting and it's a little like just talk like a real person and I think that last one seems to lend itself a little bit too much to a little clinical analysis versus like just human connection and talk like what so what now what right but all about having a toolkit and there are certain situations where I think that one works really well you want the right tool for the right situation so I

think it's a propriate for people to know it and then find what works for them can you think of an example where people would use it in crypto or Tech more broadly I think when people do project or program reviews and they're talking about challenges they're dealing with it's a great tool and I've seen people use it less of an update and more of a hey here's an issue we're dealing with and here's the status of that issue great okay so now now I'm going to ask you about one of my favorite structures and which you actually referenced in your book as one of the simplest ones which is the most basic storytelling of beginning middle and end I hate the word storytelling that I really do because I hate when people reference storytelling let's do more storytelling I don't think it's a useful word it's become

meaningless it's genericized like God everything's a story like what does that even mean so I think there's usefulness in this idea of story just because if I say tell a story you at least think like oh yeah there has to be some kind of logic and flow it's not just random most stories also have some kind of emotional component but I get what you're saying I mean everything is now about storytelling so much so that there's an anti- storytelling movement it's been used too much but when you think about beginning middle and end that invites oh I have to start somewhere so my audience understands and then I have to end somewhere so I do think this notion of beginning middle end is really useful and and it also invites us to frame things in certain ways let me give you

an example yeah problem solution benefit we've talked a lot about that I can start with the problem but I could also start with the benefit so this makes me think what's the most effective way to start what's the best beginning for this audience if I have a highly resistant audience for example they're hesitant they're concerned it might be in my benefit to start with the benefits get them to buy into what I'm trying to achieve like I could say wouldn't it be great if we could do this more efficiently and everybody's like yes and then I go well here's the problem in the way so by thinking I need to have a beginning middle and end that invites me to think about where do I start and then how do I end especially because if you take another example like an audience that's bought in yeah like in crypto we

talk a lot about the problem so that you can move the narrative forward because they're already bought in and then you can spend a little less time on the benefit like well this is the result we get but now let's actually talk about what we need to do to get there that's great Matt that was a great answer very thoughtful I mean you do know your well than that means a lot coming from you those things can have a generic feel to them yes but you actually did it in a way that made it so immediately like no it's not generic here's why it matters and here's what you can actually do with it by the way as fellow podcasters I will say this because this is something I talk a ton about when I used to train people into podcasting or how to think

about host interview driven shows and conversations a lot of people think like a hallway style conversation that you just put people in a room record and it's great but guess what as you know and I know but not everyone knows who doesn't produce these 99.9% of the time the best way to have a conversation is to actually have like even if you don't have a loose Arc in mind at the outset you can create one in post production right but I always tell people you need a simple beginning a simple middle and a simple end that's it and I often spend most of my edits on written or audio form thinking about the beginning and ending and how it kind of carves out of the material you are so 100% right I am doing so many podcast interviews for the book and I will have done 50 podcast

interviews by the time the book comes out oh you're going to write an article about what you've learned yeah exactly I'm going to write a podcast host view of being a guest on 50 podcasts that's fantastic I can't wait to hear I am learning so much I mean you are and I'm not blowing smoke you are a master of your craft thank you I love that okay so a good note to wrap up on is tour of some of the tricky issues that people may have to deal with you can answer these lightning round style if you like but I'm going to just go down a list literally we talked about this already but just want to call it out a little bit more in Focus which is mixed environments which is so common in distributed workplace you have hybrid workplaces where some people are in

person some people are remote let's talk about all the nuances you might share for that one really quick so a few things I'd like people to think about and I'm going to get very tactical here I love tactics go to tone the meeting invites that you set up for hybrid meetings or or virtual meetings people don't leverage them as effectively as they can so what can you do to bring a sense of camaraderie community in your invite well what you call it the name of the meeting can do it give everybody as part of the meeting invite not just the URL that you log into the meeting for but give them a task ask a question present a challenge and then start with that so people come to it knowing that they're going to collaborate I have a very simple rule start wherever there are fewer people so if I'm in a room and

there are five of us and we've got two people remote I will always start with the people who are remote to remind everybody they're there oh I love that and make them feel connected so wherever there are fewer people start there to bring them in to remind everybody that they're connected try to position if you're hybrid the camera so everybody can see a question you might ask yourself is do you want to use tools like chat for example if only some people have access to that you know only the remote people do maybe you disable it that's such a good point I've seen this all the time right so they're very tactical things you can do to make it feel more inclusive of people and sometimes you know what I would do is if I am the leader and this is a

reoccurring meeting and I physically sit with let's say those same five people and I know they're always to remote maybe every other meeting I actually take it remote even though the other four people are in the room so I have that experience and I'm connected to those people who are more remote so there are things that we can do to make it feel more inclusive that we really need to do because that allows the communication to flow better to be more genuine and everybody feel like they're part of it and I think just asking questions of the people who have not communicated so if you're having a good discussion with those in the room take a moment to make sure you include those who are remote similarly if it's coming from those remote pull the people in who are in the room it's really being an air

traffic controller or perhaps Orchestra conductor is the better analogy of just bringing in the right voices at the right time now how about the case and this is very common in crypto probably more than any other industry because the whole theme is decentralization decentralized organizations trust without having a central intermediary permission list Etc strangers combined with familiars like how do you deal with this unique World we're in where oftentimes we have parasocial connections we have close connections intimate connections and then you have like strangers you're interacting with especially again in the case of Open Source and people around the world you may never have even met I remember that

we talked about that a ton on Club a lot yeah because that's a case where you had a very organic group that would come together it's not all private rooms public people would join people would come up to the stage people would come in at different times which happens sometimes in these group Community calls in open source and other communities really tough because you want to honor those relationships that you have the people you're close with but at the same time you don't want to exclude others so I think part of it is awareness in this conversation in this meeting there are people who are very close and there are people who aren't familiar with each other at all and so I need to bridge those gaps so think of yourself in those circumstances almost as a translator if you have some connection like you and I

have many years of a connection and we can we can cut to the chase very quickly in some ways we can almost finish each other's sentences because we've had conversations before but that excludes others who don't have that so as part of what I would do and you do a great job of this in terms of interviewing when we have one of those moments you'll then take a step back and give a little bit of background or a little bit of a bridge to people who might not be privy to that and I think we all need to take that into account we have to focus on ways to invite people into those conversations so again asking questions these can even be rhetorical questions where we just get people thinking that we want them to be part of this conversation to invite them in and

that's really what communication is all about it's about connecting making common that's literally what communication means to make common and so we can use communication to do that I love that and thank you for that compliment it's funny I hear it a lot but never saw it in myself I think it's because I feel like I'm a traveler across multiple worlds and I always feel that no matter what industry I'm in it's funny when you said way finder earlier with the women who did the dummies books for me it's like world traveler world traverser I always feel that on the flip side though I'll tell you that it's funny because there are people that meet me and they're like um you're not so much like your podcast self or I have people in my life who will actually tell me I wish you were more like your

podcast self I kind of want that person so I think that's kind of funny you know the thing that people tell me the most when they meet me they're all like you look much older than you sound oh no I get that all the time and then when we were in Zoom World everybody's like you're much shorter than I thought you so I get physical things you get metaphysical things oh man I'll take it yeah I'll take that okay what do you do when there isn't a clear leader or facilitator in the meeting and you're kind of doing this in a very organic impromptu informal way like how do you sort of manage that without looking like you're taking over this can be the case with a lot of like decentralized or I mean they do have leaders but they're just like many leaders versus one

central leader but sometimes it can be a little chaotic seeming so do you have any thoughts on that case the chaos can bring creativity so I certainly don't want to dampen that but you also want some momentum towards a goal and make sure that there's Focus here again is where I would really rely on paraphrasing paraphrasing is a soft way to take leadership you're not saying we must move on but you're saying you know sonel I heard you say this and I also heard Jim say that and I'm seeing that we're coalescing around this Point what do you all think so I'm using paraphrasing to highlight and then I ask a question rather than provide Direction and that can keep things moving without it feeling like I'm dictating what needs to come and what needs to happen yeah by the way we often say in crypto that this

is a future of work and whether you agree or not over time we are going to be living in this world more and more I know a lot of people went back to in person after the pandemic some people stayed remote but I do think this is a very important skill so I'm really glad you shared those t tactics mat same so obvious when you hear them but actually when you listen to them like who actually does those things absolutely and those same skills can help you in these hybrid world or also the situations you describe where there's no clear leader and people are just being very creative and brainstorming okay so here's another tricky situation you actually already shared feedback but like how to apologize and recover in a conversation when it's not going the way you want apologies are tricky and I think it's really important that we

apologize quickly I have a structure I like AAA you know here in the United States the AAA is if your car breaks down they come and help you fix it and I think AAA can help you fix these potentially fraught situations so the structure is this you acknowledge what it is that you did or did not do that was offensive you then appreciate how that might have made the person feel or the people feel and then you explain the amends that you will make in the future so acknowledge appreciate amends many of us if we apologize at all we'll say things like I'm sorry I made you feel bad well that's not an apology for the action that's an apology that might have resulted in how the person felt and in fact you make it worse because it's

making it about them and not actually like hearing them it's terrible exactly so I might say something like I apologize that I cut you off in our conversation I know that if I cut you off that might make you feel as if I don't respect your contribution in the future not only will I let you finish but I'm going to paraphrase what you say before I add my contribution so I acknowledge what I did I appreciate how that might have made you feel and then I explain very specifically what I intend to do in the future to remedy this situation and prevent it from happening again so AAA acknowledge appreciate amends can really help you know we were talking about the framing of spontaneous

and impromptu communication and generally about speaking informally not like formal presentations when do you think this kind of thing should happen you said it should happen quickly but should it happen in the moment of like that meeting I wish I could say always do this or never do this yeah you have to ascertain what's going on in the moment so if we're in a critical conversation there are lots of us in the room and the momentum is moving forward I may not immediately do the apology but I might do it really soon after there is something to be said about a public apology so if if I cut you off in a group in a meeting it makes sense for me to apologize publicly you know to have the infraction happen publicly but the apology take place privately I think is in some ways

wimping out a bit now similarly I don't want to make it awkward for you right because if I apologize publicly then you're in this really awkward position so I have to make a in the- moment decision what I think is best for you and for the team or what whoever else is around you know I guess the guiding principle would be how is it going to make the person that was offended feel and how much negative impact will it have on the momentum in the moment of the the room and then make that decision so if you say yeah that really did piss me off and I hope it doesn't happen again then I might ask you you know when this meeting reconvenes I'm actually going to say something publicly because I really do feel bad and then give you the choice if I do it or not so there

are lots of ways to play that I like that especially because what you just said there's implied in there that you can avoid the performative aspect of that which is also a danger in this day and age yes all right last one how to handle a confrontation and what I mean is when you have someone in a group who's like the opposite side of you kind of adversarially positioned any thoughts or advice so I think what's really important in that is to look for common ground I talk about in the mindset chapter this notion of yes and which comes from improvisation and yeah look for areas of agreement where could you say yes and to the person who is on the other side of the debate with you chances are there are lots of bridges look for those and then try to

understand how you can continue to build off those as you try to have the discussion that you want too often we quickly entrench in our position and the other thing that happens is we assume that the other person that we're in conflict with or negotiating with holds the positions they hold as strongly as we hold our positions that's such a good point you know my wife and I do this silly thing and I learned this from a friend when we have a debate or a conflict one of the first things we'll do is we'll rate how important it is to us so let me take something very trit let's say we want to go out to dinner and my wife wants to go to Italian food and I want to go out to Mexican food we could have a fight about it but if my

wife says you know Italian food for me is an eight I'm thinking Mexican food for me is a five there's no debate yeah great point so we should also try to ascertain the level of importance to the person on these different issues we assume it's the same as ours and that's often not the case and that opens up room for dialogue and discussion yeah in a mathematic IAL kind of engineering way I mean it's not quite mathematical but whatever it's statistical but yeah I would put it as putting weights on the factors that's how I think about all things I'm always modeling things in my head and reducing them to various factors and then just assigning them weights I love it I think it works really well and it has certainly helped my marriage be successful well I was actually about to say Matt throughout

this convo I've been thinking in the back of my head a lot of this actually just applies to relationships like personal relationships I mean that is what workplace relationships are too if you think about it even Beyond workplace but for your like siblings significant others oh yeah if I had one big takeaway and there's many takeaways I think what I heard kind of over and over throughout this idea that communication is about connection and finding common in communication that's a very powerful thing to think about in a world of tech and a world where sometimes they can get a little Insider I think that is a wonderful note to end on well sonel thank you it was a true pleasure thank you so much and that's Matt Abrams author of the new book just out think faster talk smarter how to speak

successfully when you're put on the spot thank you again Matt thank you sonel thank you for listening to web 3 with A6 andz you can find show notes with links to resources books or papers discussed transcripts and more at as6 crypto.com this episode was produced and edited by sonal Choy that's me the episode was technically edited by our audio editor Justin golden credit also to moonshot design for the art and all thanks to support from a6z crypto to follow more of our work and get updates resources from us and from others be sure to subscribe to our web 3 Weekly Newsletter you can find it on our

website at a6z crypto.com thank you for listening and for subscribing let's [Music] go