The End of NFT Scarcity | Analyst Round Table

Transcript

so rug. fun it's like a competition between these tokens and the number one token in the pool and the number 10 token in the pool both get launched into a liquidity pool and the rest get rugged if there's 50,000 meme coins launched a day it's impossible to have any Edge in picking which one of these animal pictures from Myspace in 2006 is is go up sounds like a skill issue yeah turo they might put me in jail cuz you mentioned rug do fun on the podcast brother before we get into today's episode just a quick disclaimer the

views expressed on this podcast by I or myself or any guests are their personal views and do not represent the views of any Associated organization nothing in this episode should be construed or relied upon as Financial technical tax legal or other advice all right let's jump into the episode what's up guys welcome back to another episode sort of ZX research uh we have something new and exciting going on today I'm joined by the page one crew bofin turo and tols um we're going to be trying out a new format like going forward we're going to do conversations with other analysts researchers participants Etc from time to time before we get started tols turbo bothen do you guys want to give a little background on yourselves and how you guys got started in the

space I'm gonna have to okay uh I'll kick it off um I got into it I got into crypto in like 2021 fall 2021 I had been like crypto adjacent like I had some friends who were into it and I was just watching like nft sales basically and I just kept seeing like Punk selling for absurd amounts of money like the dumbest stuff in the world and I look at it and I was like okay like I'm just going to try this and if I if I lose this money like I probably deserve to lose this money and so one of my buddies

from uh college was in Moon overlord's Discord and so he sent me an invite there and I basically just sat in the one from August until like perpetually um and so everything got shoveled through there just every pile of garbage and also every Diamond like it was September and and who went on to be the product designer of treasure was like just kept telling us to buy like treasure nfts and I was like dude I don't want I don't want to buy

your your white words on black background like and then that took gol we basically saw like everything from there and it just kind of evolved from there yeah so I came in um obviously through Moon overlords Discord too that's kind of where we we all ended up meeting um but I came in kind of more through the uh daily fantasy sports and sports gambling Avenue I was playing um uh daily fantasy sports pretty much as the sole income leading up to co and then obviously Co happened and sports were shut down and I was very aware of crypto because um I mean through through gambling sites and and whatnot it was kind of a uh a background topic here and

there and and I was never deeply interested in it until Co hit obviously Sports were done so um it was really kind of 2020 that I just fully dove in and and never looked back um so I've been aware aware of it since I'd say probably 2017 like I remember um some bch just showing up in my uh in my coinbase account at the time I was too dumb and just and soed and and never uh never decided to look deeper into into the space but yeah so I've uh I've been around kind of observing for I'd say probably close to seven years now um but fully since uh 2020 with football like fantasy football I guess fantasy sports wait I need to

let bofin introduce himself and then we're going to dive into that I think it's kind of hilarious though that the law keeps adding on no okay like I've been in crypto since 20 12 like on and off where I was I think mining do coins I think I 2013 actually but no um I've been kind of on and off since 2012 2013 but I've been fulltime in crypto since 2020 or so when I kind of founded my own blockchain startup to do with like infrastructure and then sold that to a c and then in the meantime that's like my professional side but the Curiosity side was being on Twitter and CT and then I think as T and TOS have said joining kind of moonover server for nfts and kind of meeting the

guys there and getting the market sentiment so on and so forth so yeah know that that a very quick background I thought the one was set up by you guys and not Moon Overlord but I guess you guys all joined and met there yeah yeah that's where uh where we where we all started started linking up there um and that's kind of how page one came together that's where when me and turve started uh talking in there and posting in there um I think we sent the first couple ones just in the Discord like in a separate Channel there to link out and then we started um publishing off of that yeah it was basically like it was like January 22 and I was talking to one of our buddies who was a mod about I was like

Hey like if you if you leave for a week like if you're on vacation or something you come back and everybody's talking about something completely different and at the time there wasn't I guess there might have been and I just wasn't as exposed to it but there I feel like there wasn't nearly as much independent crypto reporting in 2021 2022 as there was even in like even in the bare Market it's like there were a lot of people like like nft threaders and stuff started popping up a lot more and when we started page one I was just trying to make like the thing that I wanted and it wasn't really available um there were definitely some

people like lucky Trader was still around and they kind of they grew out of daily fantasy sports too um and so they're still around Tyler and Logan are awesome and but I was like What if I just wrote like a weekly recap I think I started off as like daily and it was like okay that's impossible but then eventually it evolved and then we picked up tols he started doing everything that wasn't uh just pictures I was the picture guy I'm not you know I don't think about defi protocols and stuff like that's that's his realm and then a couple months after that probably like March or April we picked up bofin and

he's our esoteric essayist um but yeah that's kind of how page one started yeah I um I feel like I definitely agree with you that there's this been this popup of like Freds even like if you just look at airdrop Fring it wasn't this big and now it's like information asymmetry is getting so so small since everything is just out there all the time um talking about esoteric writings both and I read your I guess like your gaming essay criticism and I kind of wanted like we already talked about this in DMS but I want to ask you like where you see how

you would divide um current games out there right now cuz like I think a fantasy dotop is a as a game not a social fight I feel like a lot of people claim it's social fight I don't think so and like then there's projects like pixels and then Prime like parallel TCG how do you spend your time looking into these things do you think it's like worth looking into everything or like what's your mental model behind that that's all good question I think starting with fantasy top I think it can be both it can be social F and the game at the same time because like gamification I think is kind of inbuilt into it where you have to tweet out and you have to collect cards and stuff I'm

not personally on there um I think I I passed I'm very early on to be H it to be like oh it's just Twitter CT people how big can it get and that's kind of biit me in the ass right now but I think aside from that it's it's interesting because it creates a sort of connection between the person who is the card so to speak the Creator or the K if you want to call them that and then the fans subscribers collectors or whatever so there like an it's a positive enforcement Loop sort of going into it where hey you got to be active otherwise we get points so on and so forth and everything incentivized it's like a nice kind of loop going on there and that can be one type of game and it's like a social Community game but then like you

said there's other games as well like there's pixels there's parallel and prime the bigger exles but I think there's also like a third set of games people don't talk about that's like more like um on chain games so you have I think Redstone is one of them and there's other stuff like you have Sky Strife you have uh there another one there's one reason today I think it's called like D D or D yr D E A which basically like you have to connect to a different kind of optimism chain and it's like an onchain gaming but it's very it's cheaper kind of to use and that's also interesting because onchain gaming isn't explored as much as people would like it to be if that makes sense but then the background the background

or the alternative side of it is it's it's it's too simple in that regard or like it's too Niche for people to even know about these things and that's coming from just like a lot of noise everywhere and all sorts of things like I said like threading is huge now you have air drops air drop threaders you have like normal threaders you have at one point there was also wh threaders if we've seen that but the Divide between them is interesting because you you see things like you have web three gam which I say are not that good it's basically taking strategies which already work in gaming before and in the bad way and then putting them in web 3 which people already hate so you're combining the hatred of AAA gaming and how the

companies already monetized and then adding them to a to a tech which people also don't like and that's just giving everything a bad example but then you have other stuff which kind of use blockchain stuff on the background and then power it in a way that kind of makes sense like parallel but because it's got that dirty blockchain word attached to it it's not going to do well in the social Norm so to speak so I mean it's interesting right like there's there's so much stuff going on but there's not enough attention on it and the attention that you do get you get like YouTubers like JN I think his name is where he will kind of talk about being a gamer and tring out actual crypto games and most videos are completely fair and valid where the games are not working they not online or

like they need nfts to go into them and that is kind of the lens that people view crypto games from because a lot of people realize that games in crypto aren't isolated to just games in crypto they also have to compete with the actual big games like the the IND the Indie titles or the triaa games and if your product is not kind of lining up to that expectations of the norm they've established and it's just kind of really cumbersome to use and not that good and then you add in the blockchain and be like Oh but you need this nft as a battle pass or you need this nft as a land to kind of work people are going to do that and at the same time they used to cost so much anymore like it's all relatively dead right now but no I think

it's it's it's yeah I mean that's that's my yapping about the entire topic yeah I mostly agree with you I um apart from the onchain gaming bit I tried out a couple of those games like I spent yesterday and like I I guess like all weekend to play sky strife and it's just too simple because I think it's like all meant to be on chain so it is too simple but I also don't want to midwit something at the very very beginning of like a narrative because it might just end up working out and they might be able to build like more complex stuff like you said they're like making it super cheap now Redstone has like I think it's cheaper than l2s um which is good like that's what you want but I'm still like I guess going to midwit it I

don't know I I mean I don't know if TLS turbo you guys play any onchain games or if you're like interested in these like new fully onchain games at all but I just I can't seem to play them for longer than an hour max yeah I mean personally I'm not um I was never really the biggest the gamer growing up so um but I I I mean I keep eyes I try and keep eyes on the space I mean as far as as you know kind of like funding and development to mind share goes like the Mind share that that gaming has now you know obviously a lot of people throughout really the past three to four years have been really excited about just kind of the crypto gaming sector in

general and we obviously had actually come out of that but really the past I'd say year year and a half two years I mean you have Prime which has I'd say a good amount of uh of Mind share but outside of that I mean it's been relatively quiet um but with I mean the axi example like if there is something that that sticks like that you see how quickly the momentum can grow so um it's something definitely to keep eyes on but um personally like right now there's nothing um really outside of parallel Prime that that has my attention unless I'm missing something buffing um no I mean you have like other games that people like this like um shrap was the other shooter that people

talk about as mavia mavia I think how we pronounced that basically in in a nicer way of saying it's like a reskinned Clash of Clans but with tokens in it like you you have stuff like that but like there is no no not and pixels obviously have pixel as well isn't um Dead Drop is the one what's the guy's name bofin guy yes and that one's kind of interesting um it's I think the onchain games like that type of game just has a limited Market even in regular gaming you know it's like the most popular games are ones that are just fun to play easy to pick

up because even with parallel it's like there are a lot of people who are actually very passionate about playing parallel and very much enjoy it who you know it's like I see them on Twitter sometimes and it's not like these people are you know onchain adeps like me and like like they're more focused on just parallel or just this that the other thing and I think that's where you'll get to see more development in onchain gaming is when there are just more options for people to play um but I think the comparison of fantasy top to a game versus social fi is very accurate just because like it's

very much like daily fantasy sports in that like because you see like de and Andy and them talking about it and then you see people who are running like these spreadsheets and stuff and it's all the same type of thing as daily fantasy sports so in in many ways it's closer to that than it is social th but it's you know it kind of mixes it it's I'm really interested in seeing how it develops just because like there's a lot of there's so much power in the Creator's hands right now it's and like they're they've done a good job so far of managing Supply like that type of

thing I think the mechanics that are in place it's not you know it's not like I've conducted a economic study of this game economy and that's kind of bof in steel more than is mine but I've been impressed with the so far lack of dilution but it's like as they continue to add more people in as they continue to develop more tournaments this that the other thing it'll be very interesting to see just how the economy develops in it because I don't there's there's so much power in them being able to tweak something and then it changes all these

Dynamics but at the same time a lot of people so far aren't like like I said the people who have these fantasy sports like style spreadsheets and they're analyzing like oh the variance of this card and the inflation it's like I saw de talking about these things I was like dude I have no idea what this means but there's a level of complexity to it that gives it the opportunity for it to be somebody's main focus and I tweeted like the other day that the nft market is kind of at least you know like the nft market as we knew it in 201 21 2022 even into 2023 like when I was

writing page one it's like you can go back and read these page 1 nft Recaps and there's probably 15 projects a week between updates new projects and upcoming launches and largely they're very similar you know it's like okay on somebody's doing this type of thing and somebody's got a different skin on it over here but at some point it was kind of boring and I so I tweeted that that volume and those participants have gone towards things that are more complex that are more interesting because they're more complex like fantasy top and friend Tech and also towards things that are more interesting because they're simpler like

meme coins and it's like there's you know there's some level of complexity in nft markets because like if you're Cyrus and you know absolutely all of the board ape traits and it's like oh I see this one in nfx in the pool and I know that this is a rare trait and I can sell that it's like but that's almost as deep as like being an nft Pro goes whereas with fantasy top there's more things that you can look at there's more opportunity for somebody to remain interested in it over time time versus nfts where it's really

just like you know Meme coins with pictures and there's only so much you can do there before you need to provide users with something more interesting yeah I agree I mean we'll talk about nfts a little bit I think later um but I kind of want to touch up on that thing you said about the dilution and how they made the card Dynamics work like they're basically running back FIFA Ultimate Team but as like fantasy football right cuz the pack opening system is exactly the same like the RAR Etc and I think like it's also I'm not sure if it's the right word to use but it's kind of like gotcha

mechanics and both of them was talking about this um I think two days ago basically like verifying on chain about like Rarities and stuff and that's kind of what you were mentioning as well turbo where it's like you don't know they might tweak something and then it affects the whole balance and we saw that happen with crypto valleys where like it died out because they changed the sage mechanics and that's kind of like one issue with these I'd say like really like Fast dying out game five projects like I'm not sure how long fantasy. toop will last um like agreeing I agreed with you both and like initially I was like oh this is like very CT native I this probably doesn't do that well for that

long um but like these quick I don't want to say quick but basically like def some form of Def elements wrapped up in pixels these types of games that like you expect to die down relatively quickly at least like maybe two months three months they have to like they need those dilution mechanics can really like kill them especially if something B like the dev tweaks one thing and people are like okay well this is not worth my time anymore but in terms of like is it more interesting than nfts 100% at least like you get to do something with it that's it yeah it's something new and and different so I mean that alone is is worth you know something I mean me and

turf talk all the time like you know just some type of minor addition I forget exactly how you pH it phrase it iteration yeah some type of sufficiently iterative it's what we saw with nfts how they kind of you know they would iterate and then it got to a point where they can't and it's not to say that you know what fantasy top has done is like you know the the greatest thing ever but but it's an iteration and then something else can be built on top of that so I'm glad to see that that is at least you know it's it's a different game in a sense that we haven't really seen it and I agree there are certain you know dilution elements and mechanics that in I mean really like kind of similar to in-game economies like that

stuff needs to be meticulously managed because one wrong tweak like you said Bach can kind of um I mean it can can tarnish the the whole ecosystem so um it is something different and and it's interesting um but yeah I mean as far as kind of like the defi elements in in the spreadsheet aspects go like it gets to the point where you can start modeling it out and then obviously the the blast rewards and gold and everything else in there add a lot of different elements that that people are figuring out so I think that's kind of why it's exciting as well is there's kind of you know three four five different mechanics and in fact that go into the equation and a lot of it is kind of a guessing game so that's what you know gets people excited

when you can you know it's kind of your assumptions verse the other Market participants assumptions without a lot of known details so in that sense it's it's exciting and we'll see you know where it goes over the the next few weeks and and a blast eventual launch and how that'll you know impact stuff and the volume there but in the in the short term it's it's exciting and it's something different and I'm always for exploring that and um supporting that at least in the short term yeah yeah those guys also made they made 9 mil last week apparently like just based off these which is ridiculous like these social F whatever consumer social F game five products they they they've been making

bank fch fch too yeah yeah well frch is another I mean it's it's interesting that I mean the token's been down over the past couple days but I mean it was kind of interesting how obviously the 100% air drop like I mean I love racer for that everything he he did was was awesome there but it was kind of like when I was anticipating the launch and then it's kind of like this is just a pull to token like I don't know how much you can go up because the market is so I feel like kind of the participants left in the market like they're so used to what that entails and generally you know that entails the the main token just going down only because it's essentially farmed so um it's a difficult balance that's for sure and I

mean it's you know a lot of this stuff like we said have we've seen before yeah um like throughout the bear those pool to like whatever form of rapping they did on pool two mechanics it was like oh this is like actually not pool two anymore we're doing like V free fre farming or whatever it's just been down only we don't have that nobody believes in stuff at this point and it's just been pain for all of those types of coins I think on that point it's interesting that you mentioned crypto valleys and how it died very very quickly compared to everything else and I was having this conversation with a friend I think a while back and the idea or the the my well the main core of it

basically came down to every single cycle or every single time there's this new tech which is novel and it's interesting to use and the next time someone tries it after hasone already tried it just doesn't work so you had the three3 with oh go super absurdly high because it was the first of its kind you had um DF defi kingdoms was the initial one that went really high you had I think Yen was I think the first kind of pool two type yield farming thing that went really high as well and every time you get a reskin of these things and like oh but rather than doing some X than burning something we're doing Revenue sh so on and so forth people are sort of used to the idea that it's not novel anymore and that's why I think it's almost like the the curtain has been lifted so to speak

and every time someone does the same thing again it just doesn't work as much as it should because people already know why how it should work or how it already does work so like I said I think I mentioned it a couple days ago that there's a lack of innovation in cryptospace as a whole that makes things interesting and because there is nothing happening like there is nothing to kick start people kind of coming and showing off so defi kickstarted the entire like 2017 wave like could argue then you had nfts part of the entire thing we're like oh it's kind of it's pictures on the blockchain but hey we can do token gating we can do X we can do y we can do Zed we have like royalties or creators and all these different things and then you had open additions and all these

different things and recently there's just been nothing like that it's always been just reskins of stuff that's existing it's like oh yeah like we have reaking and stuff like that but that's not interesting for most people right it's like it's interesting people who are Crypton native who get yield on the assets they already have but then for the person coming in why should they bother if that make sense the only thing that's happening right now well the collective was like me salana or base with pump. fun right you have all these different things happening so if there's something new that's kind of even somewhat interesting and it kind of gets mind share it's going to be much more interesting but right now because all these things have been tried and tested and by a test and I mean mostly gone

down any new attempts of the same thing is not going to go as far as people would like it to yeah I I think that's a large portion why I like this entire kind of social fi like name started taking off is partially because it was something that kind of hadn't really been done before and obviously I mean forecaster stats and what they've built are are amazing and um frch like I mean it's there's some novelty like in the platform there and you know the benefit that goes to graders and then fantasy top too but I kind of feel like everybody wants to I don't know make the social five thing kind of happen because it hasn't really been done um but really when you kind of you know strip away some of the pieces a

lot of it looks you know similar to some of the the Defi and you know kind of aspects that that we've seen before but um it's like I said it's still exciting and it's something different um and foraster I mean turve can speak on on foraster more than than any of us here but um what they're doing there I think is probably the most sustainable by far just because you know I mean obviously when you put off the token and there is no token that's you know tied to the name obviously people associate djen with it um but that gives it more more staying power and I mean some of the user metrics they have there I mean they speak for themselves so I think that's the the most exciting um social fi thing to me right

now yeah and I think one of the one of the overarching themes that are kind that's rather new is all of this is kind of connected to creating an onchain reputation in a way that people didn't do as much in like 2021 or 2022 like you know there's what's his name the bread guy who was uh tracking people dumping their friend and that this that the other thing but farcaster is definitely one of the most interesting for that just because if you're in a channel and they're getting to the point where like

you can gate channels based on nfts held or this that the other thing based on your FID your forecaster ID and then you look at friend Tech and it's like they have the snapshot of Key Club holders or key holders and all of those things are kind of building towards and then yeah for fantasy top does it as well where it's like you can go on the leaderboard and it's like I can see like my friends in the in the top 20 like Twitter accounts that I know and I think that is cool because it adds a level of transparency I guess and it's like obviously there

are still ways where it's like if you want to be unknown on the blockchain you can but I think we're reaching a level of normalization of onchain reputation that provides another layer of opportunity for people to create and distribute things on chain to people who they have a reason to give it to you know it's like and dgen is dgen and other forecaster tipping tokens are very interesting in that regard because like with a traditional meme coin like somebody can go in and buy up the supply like I tweeted two or three days ago or something about how like Yes Meme coins

are fully diluted but a lot of them are just like you know in Insider Fest at the beginning and it's like it's kind of it's kind of necessary almost in a way to break something out from amongst all the possibilities but now with d gen it's like you know I've gone on Plenty of rants on forecaster about the Tipping culture and like people you know you need to like speak with your tips for what is right because anytime you provide Human Social incentive for profit it's like it's just going to take out it's just going to bring out the

worst in them yeah classic but the fact that dgen is distributed to people who are actually doing something is you know it's almost like a um like social Mining and I think Pac moon on blast does this as well where it's like depending on your content creation and I'm not I haven't been super into the blast scene um but depending on like your content creation you get you know distributions and that type of thing and the potential for like you know anom airdropping all his key holders keys to the club that he made and it's

like those things provide opportunity for distribution that we were that it kind of started with like airdrops 2 nft collections you know and that's the same type of thing where it's like okay instead of picking your distribution based off like this are artificial like oh did you use this swap or whatever like were you farming Z K sync and blah blah it's like you can actually put more thought into how you're Distributing things and how you're rewarding People based on onchain reputation and I think that that's going to be something that we continue to see develop through all

of these things forecaster fantasy top friend Tech Etc yeah I agree with the distribution mechanics I feel like the NFD airdrop wave that we had like a couple months ago was the first iteration of that and then now people are realizing like okay maybe Actually I don't even think people have realized that it might make more sense to do this to like because social F users especially those who are active are like people who are the most onchain and I feel like that's who you want to I mean we can talk I don't know if that's who you want to drop your tokens to I feel like every time I have people on the podcast were talking about air drops but um

people love tokens yeah people love tokens yeah what do you guys think how do you think like the recent I guess like airdrop meta has been working out because that's like where I was going to be headed but I'd rather not say the same thing that I've said over the past on yeah I think me and tokes talked about this well a couple weeks ago as well Well we I'm like a hardcore my lady and Tok like a hardcore madlad so it's like different chains but then madlads has been one of the most on of air dropped collection and my ladies are sort of kind of gaining the Mind share of the sense that hey it's a my lady owned protocol we don't sell air drops and stuff like that and a lot of the people I think now or a lot of the um

Developers for Protocols are sort of realizing well not realizing they're experimenting with the idea that if we can kind of Target these cult like pfp collections where people historically haven't sold their nfts or like they like the art or like they have a certain allocation to them or whatever that's going to gain more mind share because looking from 2021 to now it's like most of the collections are dead right like the they most of the nft have gone down like down only and there's been a very select few that have survived and have even gone up in value and all of us kind of have those nfts right now like you have puppet know your noddings were recently

hot right now but like regardless like this it's got this vibe to them madlads has always been I think the premier salana nft and then you have kind of my lady which is kind of it's literally like an ethereum cult so to speak with like ramilia rilio you have rad Bros and all these different things so you have these entire incentives kind of working as a collection of okay these guys don't do a certain thing that expected of most people so they won't sell the airdrop so on and so forth and even pudy Penguins is the other one that has a lot of D5 Builders and have gotten other drops before so I think toes and out I think the rest of the stuff to that as well yeah I mean that's that's one of the first reasons that I was so bullish on

madli is just CU I mean really the idea was that they're building the backpack exchange and eventually you could potentially get the backpack airdrop and then um there was a ton of other I mean the jto um Wormhole there's Dimension there's been plenty and that was kind of the entire thesis behind that and it goes back to what tur was talking about the onchain social and I mean aird drops they're never going to be perfect like you know you give people tokens like free money essentially out of thin air like it's going to be some of it's going to be sold but what I think a lot of people are realizing is that there's you know certain nft communities that I would say it's not even so much about

the community but maybe like the standing in the broader like CT Community like they have more more reach you know they have more social capital and it it kind of becomes like a compounding effect to reward those type of people because of you know the the reach that they have and again like the social capital and it's just better for for the token overall so I think work generally in the earlier stage of kind of nfts being used as a distribution mechanism um and then going back to what Turf said again about you know forecaster and and fantasy top and all this you know the onchain identity like

all of that stuff is still kind of in the earliest stages to me and obviously you know we want you certain levels of of privacy but you can have you know certain addresses that you have Assets in and that that's you know like a public wallet like like an ens and it's kind of like an iteration on top of that to me um and being used as as a distribution method like it just it makes all the sense in the world and it's way better in my opinion like orders of magnitude better than um you know farming some random you know some l2s some random decks like and rewarding the users who are on their cyal swapping over and over and over like yeah you can have multiple nfts but at least there was it it's a higher barrier to entry

than you know like the industrial cyal farming yeah I think the I agree with you like anytime people are complaining about air drop Farmers on those like let's say on ZK sync or other like Bridges and stuff it's mainly I don't think people care that much about like the individual uh Cil Farmers those can get weeded up pretty easily it's like the industrial ones that have they've bought like 400 Mac Minis and they're like clicking um using selenium and stuff and like faking these transactions really well or paying yeah I mean even paying people like I I don't think you know I mean it's talked about here and there but I don't think people realize the level of I mean you saw it

with the Stark net like you can just look at their transactions and user after the token launch like you know the the l2s and and the stuff like that like people don't realize that a lot of those metrics you know it's there's serious Capital behind the ability to to farm this stuff so yeah using some type of onchain identity and I think the purest form that we have of that right now is certain nft collections so it just makes all the sense in the world that they'll continue certain ones will continue to be rewarded through distribution because I mean at least if I was you know Distributing a token like there would be certain that that's the best way I can think of to you know distribute it and again like there's no perfect way to give out you know x amount of

essentially free money like some of it's going to be sold like you know it's a marketing expense whatever but that there has to be a better way than than what we've seen yeah um both and you mentioned something interesting nfts have been down only I this is like when I asked about what should I ask turbo talks and both and this was like 30% of the questions is what you guys think of um e nfds what we think if they'll like and I guess like my main I also have an add-on question to this aside from the general crowd like Mal ladyes puppets these I don't want to say esoteric but slightly esoteric nfts have been doing really well um and like the traditional I don't know how to describe it but just like

pfp nfts where it's like I don't know good example like the gods or UTS like these forms of of nfts they just haven't been doing particularly well what do you guys think about that like how do you see e nfts evolving over the or like in general all nfts evolving over the say six 12 months I think one of the so off that tweet about where nfts nft Market volume and participants move to things that are both more interesting more complex and simpler I think a lot of the projects like I was saying like if you go read through page one it's like you know mid 2022 a lot of these projects like wanted

to be like a street wear brand or this that the other thing and it's like at the end of the day that's and so my follow-up tweet was that a lot of these a lot of nfts were simple ideas that are masquerading as complex ideas and it's like when you're building your community around like oh we want to be the next Disney like we're going to do this that the other thing we have this big road map and it's like those the road map nfts are really the ones that we've seen die out you know it's like we don't see that you don't see road maps anymore really and it's like the things that have been

successful are the ones that never promised you anything and that you know had their own communities form around them regard L of how insane they are Pudgies is a different example because they actually executed very well on the complexities that they said they were going to do and they're kind of building out that environment but at the same time that's also about the fact that they had the real community and it's like what we really saw is this you know the ones that were selling you a vision are nobody's buying that anymore and so it's really just the ones that have people who are interested

in them regardless of price because if you look at pudy it's like they were down bad um what's what's his name former founder Cole you know sold them and then on the rise back up it's like Luca bought them but when he bought them it's like even then there wasn't that many people who believed in them it was it was a group that was formed around these core Believers and with whether or not we're going to get we're ever going to get back to the point where like because when I got into crypto like I was sitting on icy tools I had the icy tools mint Page open like every single day just at work like just waiting to see what would pop up and

it's like those that has transitioned that is now pumped out fun you know and so that's where that volume's kind of gone and the things that we see take off now I mean I don't even remember what was the last winning nft mint on eth like um Pandora I say would be the other one right yeah except it went down only after that exactly it's like um and it's like you know 404s are an interesting thing and I feel like we'll probably get back to playing around with that idea but the nfts that have been successful Salon nfts have been down only a lot of

eth nfts have been down only and we've kind of made a transition towards ordinals being where you can store you know a just something that's just a profile picture and I think that that probably continues I do think there's a lot of opportunity like you can feel it on base and on blast like the opport for a mint season to happen in terms of like something just going crazy but those are both for different reasons as well it's like on base these a lot of the communities for the nfts that have been successful are formed on farcaster around actual communities like anchang

gas like tiny base toads frogs like um far cats was one there's there's a bunch of other farcaster native nft Collections and then blast is kind of like you know just because blur is great at incentivization and these types of things and I'm very curious to see how that happen how that progresses once we get into past the first airdrop because I think it's you know I would be incredibly surprised if they didn't do a season two type uh points for program deal like they did with blur but I am

skeptical that we will ever see a mint season C you know allaha 2021 2022 on eth M net I think a lot of that volume will either move towards it it moves towards things that are more interesting like social fi it moves towards things that are simpler like meme coins and then it moves towards ordinals where it debatably makes more sense to create a collection that you want to kind of stand the test of time and that's I think the Art Market is a different beast and we've yet to see a you know a huge amount of the Art Market move from

eth to ordinals or to Soul or to l2s well besides Zora Zora L2 is very cool there's a lot lot of artists on there um but a lot of the art infrastructure is still on eth Main net yeah and I I think it'll probably just be more of the same more built around community and like actual Psychopathic cult like holders and who are just passionate about this thing for you know next to no reason it's not because there's a road map and I don't think I would be very surprised if we ever made it back to the point where road map nfts are popular yeah I I

definitely agree with that and I mean to the Providence thing I'm more bullish on like ordinals and Ethan FS are kind of stuck in like between a rock and a hard place because like Turf said like you would think that the if it's you know a pfp for or some nft picture and you want the Providence like ideally I mean like you can make the case that I mean BTC is obviously the oldest chain it's more lendy so you would assume that stuff would move there if the argument is Providence and I do think that the Providence argument has a lot of weight because I think there's a reason that uh nfts on l2s never really ever took off despite the numerous attempts and you know people kind of waiting for certain

aspects of eth to move to uh l2s and it's because the high value stuff there's no high value nfts on l2s because you trust the Providence of eth and you don't have to have trust assumptions that come with l2s so if that's the reasoning to why they haven't been on l2s then why would they not move to BTC because you would you know think you have higher trust assumptions there um so as far as eth nfts like pfp wise like I agree that I don't really ever see you know kind of the wave that we have come back because I do think um I mean coins have captured a lot of that um what I do see kind of expanding eth nft wise is going back to the programmability that BTC can't afford

nfts and stuff that has been talked about forever about you know you see arcade doing some interesting stuff with like the tokenization and lending against you know Rolexes and luxury items and things like that like that stuff is very slowly making its way on chain and the volume's going up and then you know you have all the pie in the sky ideas of essentially like an nft is just you know it's it's a wrapper of a one-on-one item so you know whether that's like you know a car house deed whatever like I'm still kind of a I guess like again like pie in the sky like believer in that stuff and that's more where I think eth nfts are headed to where you bring higher value

um I guess assets on chain and then you you know you have the The Lending and and borrowing and all of that built around it and that type of programmability is still yet to kind of be facilitated on BTC so that's kind of like the market to where I would see eth nfts going if that makes sense more of like the functionality and then the programmability around them verse the strict um you know pictures or or or gambling kind of those ends of the barbell Spectrum are you know move into mem coins and then I'd say BTC and then everything else in the middle around programmability and tokenization and rwa type stuff that is still really good on eth because it's you know flexibility

and programmability yeah I um you know that take the Providence take that's also what suzu talked about like three episodes in a row on the ox St thing and I do agree with him it's like if you're gonna and I agree with you as well it's like if you're gonna hold a high value nftd you want to hold it on BTC or E like Solana's great but I don't want to hold it on Solana I don't know why um it just feels more patriotic if it's on you're not turo you brought up Zora and they also have like kind of a salana equivalent drip

house and I was bringing up um I brought up nfts on a work call and people were like surprisingly excited for Zora and drip house and that's new wave of like I guess creators selling their I don't know if you call these open editions as well but like these Mass um identical FS on these new apps I don't really see the vision but I mean apparently like as far as I've seen zor is doing incredible volume they they're they're earning quite a like quite a lot in fees as well but I I don't know like I feel like I'm mid witting I just don't really see why it's that popular I think a lot of there's been kind of a shift in and like you can see

it with eth I don't know which term I want to use for this like but like eth heads just do eths on foraster and there's kind of been a shift from like onchain scarcity to like onchain abundance and I think that that is kind of is what's powering a lot of like drip house and Zora is ease of access for both creators and collectors it's it is interesting and I think we will continue to kind of move towards this onchain abundance idea and because it kind of started in like early

2023 with the open Edition meta and just artists being more willing to do things like that where it's like okay maybe you're seeing this shift where it's like artists are not as um hesitant to Mint things because like I remember cuz I collect me and bofin both collect a bunch of stuff just as just for fun and it's like yesterday I minted something from Aman it was in the um art of the metaverse collection and it's just an open addition but I think you see more people who are just happy

to collect things from people they enjoy and I think that that's a culture will kind of move towards or we're seeing movement towards where it's like it creates more connection between the creators and the collectors when it's more accessible and and again it goes back to onchain reputation stuff where it's like okay I can see that you on drip house I can see that you're on Zora and it gives creators another layer of distribution again and I think that the idea that things need to be scarce to have value is kind

of being shifted in the nft world yeah anytime you can have fun when you're collecting stuff I guess that might be the reason that people like it um I I signed up for some drip out stuff I went on there it was mostly like Alec Monopoly type of art when I logged in maybe it's improved a bit um but I don't think I like spent enough time maybe to figure it out yeah I haven't either just dove in enough to fully understand drip house but it's like there's dgen poet who has basically like kind of made a career off his drip house stuff and it's cool to see people who again it's like with fantasy topic gives you something

where you can buy into this and follow along with it it's like people log into drip house every day and like are just happy to collect a piece from the person that they enjoy and but yeah it's like moving towards onchain fun you know I think there's a lot of that yeah tols you brought up um putting I guess like assets on chain I know that like you guys wrote something on figal assets do you want to like kind of give your page one feces on this um I disclaimer the only like fital asset stuff that I looked into was what you mentioned which

is like watches and stuff on chain that was for like real world assets just to see like how well they're doing they're not doing particularly well and Mina swap which is supposedly like meant to launch and it was like difficult to even acquire information on them yeah the the fidal piece is is bofin so I'll pass it to him in a minute because I'm um I'm generally like you Bach I'm not too much too deep into that um that Arena um but as far as like you know the asset tokenization stuff like again the volumes are they're relatively small but just the fact that you know you're using the programmability of of eth in like a in a global distributed fashion to wherever you are in the world to you know put a a Rolex or luxury item

on chain and you can borrow against that with obviously you need the the liquidity on the other side and somebody to to provide the loan but the potential that that can be done in you know say two minutes three minutes verse what that would take to take that physical item somewhere and and get it appraised and and you know alone against um so that space I'm I have eyes on it like I said the volumes are they're they're relatively small but that's something that that I'm monitoring as you know as um as time goes on because I think that that space is only going to grow um but as far as yeah like the actual fidal aspect B and I'm sure you have some some thoughts on that yeah sure um I think digital assets are sort of interesting in in the light

that there there's two ways you can go down and you can go down the the hyper luxury route which a lot of the web 3 startups are trying to go down in like you have like a merch you have um 9d Double C by G money and all the other things which are very vigital and interconnected I think is the entire point they're going for where each garment kind of lives in its own network and then he can talk to people who have the same thing and connect with them and then on the other side you have like putting ual assets on chain so like we have arcade by cash team where you have like your Rolexes you have your Pokemon Collections and then I think at one point they had like all of these um the Supreme T's and they had like an entire

collection of them which they kind of they put on chain and then you have the other the the bigger opportunity which I think tradire is going to push for forwards with like assets like you have stocks you have like your Commodities like gold and other stuff on chain and this all sort of leans into the programmable nature of eth right which other platforms or other chains can't really compete with in the sense that the biggest developer Market which is also on eth and its l2s while also having the bigger sort of audience base in that regard and tokenization is interesting in that manner because you can also look into the stuff as okay so

we have arcade you have all the other thing is that a meaningful volume for the idea because the first ones to do it at the same time they're doing it in a way that's very front end if someone was to kind of develop these Solutions like the let's say a Rolex second market like loan service right what I want to call that but if they did it in a way that made everything kind of on the back end and all you had to do was essentially authenticate or S send your Rolex and someone authenticates it and says Yep this is this Rolex and we can kind of get you this value and do you want a loan on this or not that's collateral and just do that without touching on blockchain stuff but on the back end it's all blockchain authenticated and back I think that's going to be a big

opportunity in the in a very similar regard to how I just see blockchain in general where it's very good for the provence stuff but then the provence stuff needs to need Providence if that makes sense where I I why okay so like I've said in the FAL piece where like if I have a Nike shoe and I have like a rare Travis Scott Travis Scott um Nike I can't remember the names now say say have rare shoe unless I'm selling that shoe to someone else or unless I'm collecting It For the Love of the Game I don't really care if it's authenticated or not because I'm wearing it it doesn't matter if I am accessing it or from on the

financial markets that's when I start caring about all the other stuff like that so if you're just doing stuff for the fun of it I don't think it really matters but there is a growing demand for a market that wants more assets and wants more liquidity in general and that's where I think tokenization really really shines through for all other stuff where you have like R comic books you have like your shoes you have watches you have paintings and all the other stuff and nfts have sort of proven this concept a lot with digital art and and like its physical counterparts so to speak so tokenization in that regard is very it's very new like it's not being experimented enough in like of course we can talk about oh we have like stock

trading for 24/7 but done on the blockchain so it can't be fudged with but that's not inherently interesting if that makes sense like the stock markets just open up for a longer time that's how cryptos have always been but the programmable nature of it like we've talked before like you have the ERC 404s where you can have like a full token as an entire nft but then you can have the same token into hundreds of thousand different units which you can kind of split apart and give to other people and then kind of make an economy out of that that's going to be more interesting and that kind of goes into the more experimental nature of what eth always has been about yeah that makes sense um what do you think will like how do you think

tokenization will I guess develop over the next I don't know if you have like a strong take on this but I agree with you I I'm not like a huge fan of tokenized stocks and like frankly I don't think anybody is if you look at the volume that they do it's very low like nobody at this currently let's say it might get better eventually but right now it's not really particularly popular but I like that like I remember when I first read about minus Swap and I don't know if this exactly fits into Figo tokenized assets um but I was like semi excited because it's I feel like we talked about this like all throughout the Pod but it was new and and it's like kind of exciting um but I'm not sure like where we go from here what do you think is like or like what do you think is like a

valid attempt at tokenizing more and more collectible assets um I mean okay there there there's a really there's really PC take there really hot take right and also start with the with the with the more D digestible take right now I think after Co once you had like all the things shooting up in price like Pokémon cards and mag Gathering Cards and Comics and the stuff that sort of died down to preco levels because people didn't have anything to do right they didn't they knew of these things but they weren't forced to do them in that regard so kind of tokenizing hobbyist collections will always be very Niche and it won't hit

mainstream because those things are mainstream as a whole which was the entire point of kind of nfts as social social status item in the metap I think that was the the go-to nft in 2021 to kind of have the entire things where like that hasn't worked out in the way it has because as we already know like the metaverse isn't huge or like there isn't anything that kind of gains Peak popularity You Can Count Roblox that's popular but that's kind of the metaverse without nfts and working fine for the Roblox company right the more cynical take or the more hot take for tokenization both Theses would essentially be that the traditional

Finance system is very exploitative and it is very very um deceptive by its nature but because of how it works it's sort of like a if you keep it hush I keep it hush as well and then we can both profit from this if you were to add tokenization of assets and stocks like that it sort of creates a a medium that can be manipulated and it can't it can call people out on the [ __ ] right where you can be like you have stuff in Tradition F like dark pools which basically is semi Anonymous trading about like how we can like dump our stocks very quickly without notifying the people or other other participants so on and so forth and people are always

trying to look stuff like that and then you have the now defunct London interbanking exchange rate or the liel as it was which was in massive scandals back back when they were like fudging the numbers up on how like Bank mortgage and stuff work like I said very boring stuff in that regard but then it sort of opened up an entire gauge way to the stuff that we don't even know how the systems work and they can be colluded with other participants to basically get the most money out if you were to put these things on chain right and then you were trading off of that the blockchain as a whole can't be manipulated and it would then act as a sort of trust verifier or like a transaction verifier that isn't controlled by anyone one and

that's a lot more interesting to kind of work with and then you have companies like JP JP Morgan having like their entire blockchain n having entire blockchain areas which they are building like one of them is called um Onyx which basically is getting these assets on chain and then for these high high net worth individuals or businesses where they basically say hey put your stuff on the blockchain and then we will B basically do the kyc and all the other stuff for that and they're going to be getting more and more market share I know black rock is doing the exact same thing I know Fidelity was also kind of working on this on the on the back end where they basically want to put all of

their assets on chain as a verification purpose tools rather than having to manage databases or collude with other parties so as a sort of no [ __ ] filter against other people who Al want who also want to make more money in that PVP setting tokenization makes a lot more sense than it would and this would never affect 99% of participants right it's only for the people back then on the more hobbyist side is still a very Niche thing which I mean we will gain traction don't get me wrong like once we have when we have periods of high net or high generation making of money like let's say we have the co stimul the co stim check as we call it was a thing

where people made lots of money then you had like the ball Market before that things like you'll always have people spending money on hobby items and that's a fair enough like business model to have but it's it won't be as mainstream as people want it to be because those things inherently AR mainstream perfect um yeah you know that thing you mentioned about verifiability in the blockchain and like how black rock and fidelia are moving on chain I um actually like I was look there's quite a few countries issuing Bonds on CH now this isn't related to verifiability but it's more like the other uh tokenization like feces which is like liquidity which is something that you also mentioned

um and there's it's just like have Singapore you have Italy moving their Bonds on Chia I read about that yeah I think it was like Philippines and maybe also Hong Kong um also a few companies as well before we move on to more questions let's have a quick word from radiant thanks to our fantastic sponsor layer zero all right guys for this week's layer zero segment uh we have Isaac the director of project management and Communications at radiant and Omni chain borrowing and lending protocol uh thank you so much for coming on Isaac hey excited to be here thanks for having us um just to kick us off what is radiant and how do you guys fit into the current money market landscape radiant is a leading uh landing and borrowing

protocol with the aim to unite to unify the fragmented liquidity in defi so basically uh making it possible and seamless for any us user to deposit on one chain borrow on a different chain and repay on a third chain and we're getting there with our current B2 and B3 launches very good um how does layer zero fit into radiant well layer zero is at the backbone of radiant radiant was built on top of layer zero we started using for V1 Stargate stable router so basically uh any user could then deposit on arbitrum and Bridge uh The Borrowed funds they wanted to borrow over to any of the supported chains Avalanche

polygon and so on now for v2 uh we went one step further and we integrated layer zero as part of the protocol in essence our own rd&t native token is now an ofd token which makes it super simless to move it around the three chains we're currently live on that's Arbitron BMB and mainnet and in the future we will integrate more assets as ofds uh in the money markets to be able to move them seamlessly so that users don't need to know what's happening under the hood they don't need to understand about l1s l2s bridges different wallets they just move the token seamlessly deposit on one chain borrow and repay on different chains yeah I think that's the ideal setup given that there's millions of chains now and you have to deal with a

lot um I'd love to hear more about what you guys are planning on working on over the next six to 12 months do you have any exciting updates absolutely well yes I have some updates exciting updates for the six uh next month months coming down the road but I also have some Alpha for you you guys today uh basically we will be launching new assets on our core market so uh some lrts we're already launching rap e for example uh we will also be uh launching on new chains uh Bas will be the first one if I da approves uh uh an important Alpha is that we're thrilled to be working on nonm chains that's salana uh so uh well that will be uh probably end of this year beginning of of next year and the

most important feature that we're launching for radiant B3 is RZ that's uh how we uh call our isolated markets that stands for radiant Innovation zones that basically uh think that will allow us to uh include to add to the protocol in an isolated risk fashion any tokens from lrts rwas memes any of the hot narratives in crypto and that's going to boost radiant and the last uh thing that we're going to add will be dual emissions so we will be able to stream rewards paid in any of the exciting tokens that are going to be air dropped soon so that's going to be added to radiant too perfect that all sounds really exciting thank you so much for hopping on Isaac okay we're thrilled to be here thanks for having us cheers all

right we're back um guys before we like end it and wrap it up do you guys want to kind of talk a bit about what you guys are looking forward to over the next six to 12 months like narratives particularly the meme coin super cycle idea which is something that I disagree with but I want to hear your takes on it as well I think there's um there's been that graphic about pump out fun and just the number of tokens that have been created in the past two months it's like there's been more tokens created on eth and l2s in the past like month than there was in the past like three years and then salana is making like 20,000 new tokens a day or something and I just tweeted

this morning about how it's incredibly difficult to differ iate between these tokens like it's it's even harder than it was like three months ago and it's like the probability of you finding the next whiff or the next Mei like is just going down down every day so I think we'll probably I'm curious to see whether or not we get some form of iteration with that and more there was a worm created uh rug. fun right yeah rug. fun is like the type of thing that I think has an opportunity s to succeed because so rug.

fun it's like a competition between these tokens and the number one token in the pool and the number 10 token in the pool both get launched into a liquidity pool and the rest get rugged and so it kind of creates like a taste making sense to pump. fun or to yeah to pump. fun and it kind of gives people more opportunity like more selection more Focus because and I think there's opportunity for that to continue happening just because if there's 50,000 meme coins launched today it's

impossible to have any Edge in picking which one of the animal pictures from Myspace in 2006 is is going to go up sounds like a skill issue yeah turbo they might put me in jail because you mentioned rug do fun on the podcast brother it's it's a good it's a good protocol run is very fun I think the first one had like over 200 coins and there was there was like $500,000 one for like the first and the last place like it's ridiculously good it's a like that's a that's a good idea for crypto native thing which is experimental and it kind of leans into the idea that oh hey if we are truly in the mem coin super cycle why not kind of fully go into it with like a meme of

like what's the midw and what's like the the the left and the right right like it's it's it's a fantastic idea and the stuff like that and I think I'm just like yeah so what the Bish thing I'm on basically more experimental stuff happening where like you have onchain games doing stuff that is really like esoteric right like there was this one game and I forgot the name of but it's a onchain game where you are basically missing body parts right and then you have to basically type in commands to get your body parts to connect with other bionic stuff and it's this entire like law building thing and it's it's simple enough but then these kind of things don't get made in general so to return to a bit of a weird Niche thing where hey we're just experimenting with

the medium is always more interesting to me so pump. fun very interesting you have rug. fun which is also great then have like onchain games and then you have I still believe 40 fours for eth will come back at a certain point because yeah I was going to say four course as well I think like it's they've got too much going on that people aren't experimenting with enough because all the attention right now is on Meme coins and the thing with 4 fours is they trade like a meme coin if you wanted to but then they are the individual tokens as well so you can basically trade your way up to having this one nft so to speak and then you can have an enre economy created around just this one token so you don't need something like oh you

have an nft and then we're airdropping you this other erc20 token it's just like it works together and there's not enough experimentation going on with it I know a couple of people have already made some tokens around this SL asterisk was one um which I kind of had for a while and then you have all the the stuff but I think in general because there's so much attention on just meme coins 40 fours I think will probably bring bring back the NFD Market on eth more than anything I think because of because of their experimental programmable nature of them yeah I feel like we re I agree with you that 404s will come back and I I like this like it feels like every let's say six months we try to do some new NFD liquidity thing I know like four or four Fe is a bit

different because it's like actually tokenized but we also had pseudo Swap and then before that we had like a bunch of increasing nft liquidity or like doing something interesting with uh trading nfts uh rizing them Etc so I am excited for that I but I mean the first iteration always dies out so like you said I'm I'm looking forward to what they're gonna be ending up building on it over let's say like a couple months talks um yeah I mean as far as I don't know the mean coin super cycle like that it's it just the context I don't know I think there's a lot of like a lot of things in life like the the gray is much better than just saying yes or no to that

thesis um I don't think the volume and number of meme coins launched like I don't think that's going anywhere I would bet on it going um pretty much up only just because I don't I don't know like it's it seems like very clear product Market fit to me but what I will say is the dispersion of the number of meme coins that are being launched is just Insanity um so maybe the heights that they reach like you know people obviously see Doge and FY and you know like with Pepe going over four billion recently like that obviously the next targets become 10 billion and then faky and then Doge and then you have whiff like like the scale goes up so what I

think will probably happen is there will be the heights to which they can reach are kind of capped because there's endless new ones coming online so the liquidity kind of shifts yeah um similar to what we've seen with like altcoins really I mean with the amount launches like people are kind of scratching their heads this cycle about where we are and whatnot because it hasn't played out to how they would think about how money flows from BTC to eth and then to altcoins and we kind of skipped over that and I think a large part of it is because of this the dispersion and the valuations like yeah and so I think those Dynamics will be very similar um in meme coins so I'm kind of in the middle ground on the super cycle thesis and I don't think they're going anywhere

I think the volume is sticky and it'll be here for pretty much ever but I think the you know the heights that they can reach I don't think people have kind of come to the fact that as the number grows and as you know you have more between the 100 to say one billion range like that liquidity was all focused on to say three or four or five in previous cycles and once that dispersion is just I mean it's increased every day because the number of launches that are happening um so that's kind of how I'm generally thinking about it yeah that's also fair I um yeah I I'm not sure I I agree with

you that like liquidity is fragmented but I feel like we're now having so much stuff kind of appear that could potentially support this like mcoin super cycle fees like you guys mentioned there's that new there's like actually people are trying to build stuff on top of meme coins there was like that world thing that launched a couple days ago that's kind of like a meme coin as why say even though yeah it's not necessarily um also like vanck launched a meme coin index I don't know if you guys saw that but are you calling top what are you calling top because of that no I'm never calling top especially on the podcast man they'll clip it and they'll R for weeks um but yeah overall guys I want to thank you very much for

coming on this was the first time that we did something like this and it was an incredible time and I really appreciate you guys for hopping on always a pleasure yeah thank you for having us thanks for having us anytime by [Music]