EIPIP Meeting 5

Transcript

all right I just fix YouTube hi everyone thanks for joining and today let's jump right into the agenda does anyone want to run the meeting I can run it if no one wants to going once going twice okay first one is a proposal by Sam to migrate VIP content aetherium org so Sam do you want to kind of just go over what this what this proposal is and then we can discuss it very sure and hello everybody my first time here I'll just

introduce myself quickly yeh so my name is Sam I am a web developer at the etherium foundation so I mostly focus on aetherium org which is primarily on just education improving onboarding particularly for developers entering the ecosystem previously I've just worked you know at various like web agencies doing a lot of SEO and like user testing and web design so this is like an exciting area for me to help out ideally with this game community so what I was asking about in telegram and like why I

wanted to chat with you guys it's really not so much about changing any of the like VIP process per se it's really just focused on like is there opportunity to just increase exposure and overall awareness of the EIP process and like a IP content I linked out to a github issue which shows a lot of the context of like where this proposal started and came from and it was really just around like can we improve SEO and discoverability of the like existing a IP website which I think like is an excellent resource for people to you

know find a specific IP they're looking for or browse existing ones and see what their current statuses but the TLDR is just that website does not rank at all like if you search any given yeah if he it probably won't be on the top two pages so the thought we had was well what can we do to improve that what we've tried so far is just a lot of like optimizing meta tags on that site to just be more targeted in terms of like the keywords that it's going for and we've also added links from the core etherion org domain like in the footer for instance on various resource pages

to try to just like push organic traffic that way and signal to Google and all the other you know search crawler BOTS of the web that hey this this website exists and is important that it's valuable so far that really hasn't accomplished much so the proposal I'm putting forward is hey what if we you know keep the existing a IP repository as is it's great for what it does but merely mirror or migrate that content so that with every new VIP that's merged we could set up an automated process that would push that to a page on a theory or

and I listed out a reasons of why I think that's cool and exciting but the main ones are really just what I mentioned of just increasing exposure and awareness and discoverability of like EW content and growing awareness of the process itself and hopefully to just increase the UX of that experience for people trying to learn and read about content and some background on that like with aetherium org we fortunately do have the resources like we're currently working with a contract designer to roll out some design updates to that site we are actively working on features such as you know site search that exists and I

think there's a lot of those aspects and like feature development that week benefit from if we were to kind of merge to these sites together so I guess what I'm looking for you folks is just like what your overall thoughts on this proposal are what information you might like to know what like concerns or doubts or questions you have and just like what are my blind spots because I'm coming at this from a very particular angle you know I'm sure I have a somewhat biased opinion given that I'm already working on this website hey it'd be great to add this and have this but yeah looking for her I guess there's

just much feedback as possible on what we think of this and how we might go forward or how I might gather additional input from the community so with that I guess I don't know how these meetings work but I would open it up to questions yeah that works whether in the chat or yeah or here yeah I think my general feedback is like this is a great idea and I have like some specific I guess implementation details questions but like with it conceptually like you know highlighting AI piece on a theory about org feels like and like like all-around win I don't know I guess in terms of specifics is it like too much to like

move all the eeap's website they ethereal org or you know maybe we could have like or do you want to have like a page you know on ethereal dollar that kind of explains you know the TLDR like what I PR what VIPs are and then kind of linked out to the actual EAP website and so I can try to see a case you're both just because it's like a bit of information overload to go on the EIP website so maybe if you had like a you know like a one-page explainer and then perhaps like the newest VIPs or the e IPS that are just like associated with the upcoming upgrade or something like that like a subset of them that's kind of curated and that's a bit harder to do

because you need to take carried them somehow um but it seems like it might just be more valuable because this way people aren't like just looking a list of 150 IPS without any context totally yeah that's a great question and the short answer I would say is both like whether or not we do decide to migrate the EIP content to a theory or like I absolutely think on etherion org we should have a like beginners introduction to hey this is how like changes to the protocol happen this is the EIP system so I think that's something we can and should accomplish

regardless and then I would kind of probably envision that resource after an introduction probably linking to you like the most common of like you've probably heard of these standards of like the ERC 20 and 7 21 but yeah I think that yeah that'd be really good and maybe you know like the the intro page - I think I'd etherium the Lord kind of links a bunch of videos that talk about this so maybe like linking you know a few of those and whatnot and and just like yeah giving some feedback on what it is forgiving some information on what it is and then providing the option to like dive into the details

yeah I have i I've been I talked to Sam a little bit about this and definitely support doing all of this I would be this may sound extreme but I would rather I would I would go for replacing the e ip's page entirely and redoing that and having it be done having it be done and and the reason comes from more a practical sense of when things like I try a proposal to change the header to add a champions field to the EIP a barrier to that as someone needs to then update the EIP site to be able to render it but we haven't had anyone to do that historically so then it just it's like well I guess no one's gonna be able to

do that so not having people behind the web side is holding back the EIP updating the EIP process side and then and in general just isn't really very usable and without people who are focused on usability you just won't ever get anywhere I agree and I think that this is a great idea I would say as long as we have redirects from the old EIP site to the new one because that's heavily linked out also we need to separate this although we need to keep this in mind we need to separate the translation effort from the overall proposal that you put there because

that's a big effort the translation project however you should design the new site so that it can easily be translatable I guess so maybe integrate Crowden but don't use it until we want to use it I mean we could maybe do both at the same time that's more for the next meetings discussion I guess once this is more fleshed out but I know you were probably looking for kind of an up-or-down before this was more fleshed out I'm guessing yeah and would definitely be looking for you folks on some guidance around like what next steps would be like I'd be happy to put together a more formal proposal at this point it was kind of just like hey I'll

link out to the github issue so you guys can see the discussion and get some contacts well yeah definitely open new ideas on where to go from there so I think one thing that we want to do as like a next step I agree I like more formal proposal is really good but just gave the buy-in from like VIP editors like there's the Guillory IP Channel all right and I think that's like they're all people who will have good opinions on this stuff ok and trying to link you and a lot of them don't even visit that some of the time so I'm gonna talk to the editors because I'm an editor and I can just reach out to them as well we should also I mean also go to that get a

repo and then post to see it who responds but I'll also reach out to people yeah that seems like a great idea and I have chatted with a couple like Hudson I know we've talked about this I did have a call with Nick Johnson who is like had some sceptic points that he brought up but was overall not opposed to it but I definitely agree worthwhile just getting everyone's input on it the other thing is would you reuse Nick Johnson's bought improve on it or completely scrap it do you know so at least to start my thought would be to like not touch or change that aspect of

the process like I think that we can keep as like an isolated piece of the system if you will the way that I imagine at least initially implementing this is like anytime an EIP document is merged into the EIP repo we have some like Travis or automated github bot watcher that just grabs that same markdown file and copies it over into the like it's named org website repo which is also like primarily generated from markdown content so definitely open to like helping out improving that bot I've heard there has been some issues with it but I think that could kind of

be like its own standalone initiative I think the bot needs to be improved importantly because I think it shouldn't be its own standalone initiative and the reason for that is it whenever you submit an EIP so like I'm writing any IP and I have it and it's just a brand new fresh VIP pull request right what it does the bot does is it checks the header file for compliance and then if it's compliant it ships it's a draft and then if you get further along in the process and editors approve of it then it gets put to accept it or whatever the next step is but it always checks that header file so if you're gonna make a

bot that does that anyway I think reusing and upgrading his would probably be a faster and better process because then we'd have two BOTS going that we'd have to upgrade simultaneously whenever something new happened with the header file or whenever you know it's already grabbing and converting it to markdown so most of the works already done on that bot I see okay yeah that sounds fair it's putting it in a Jekyll file but you can do whatever you want with it in fact once we would probably have the bots push to both sides until we switch over and then once we switch over we'll just disable the bots for the old site and we can get Nick Johnson's approval for all

this sorry I'm kind of clueless but when you say old site are you talking about yipe es area morgue yep exactly yeah I don't think already calling it the old site it's the current site yeah the current site sorry what was that number it yeah I just don't think there should be two of those because when I first turned in figure out what i PS were it's hard to find where is the official stuff oh yeah another not two of them for a long time like two of them I should have been more specific what I mean is I don't want to end one site until the next ones up that's just to trim a

normal website transition thing that you go yeah I should have been more specific on that but otherwise yeah overall it's sounding like everyone's for this if you flush it out a little bit more Sam then we can pick apart the pieces maybe set up a different telegram group of people who are super interested in doing this so it can move along faster than these IP IP meetings um that's that's my suggested next step formalize and then connect with us you're in the EIP IP telegram group right I am correct yeah just tell us when the next steps done and we can set up another telegram room and get some of us who want to be super

involved in any web site meetings that would be dealing with this cuz it sounds like this would be this would flood into the etherium dot org meetings that happen with part of the community right right and yeah we are moving towards like monthly community calls so I'd be happy to yeah sure that info with all you guys okay anyone else have comments on this it's it's also to supercede github or for sure the IPS are still being submitted and give not supersede github from my understanding okay the old EIP site on aetherium gorg

exactly okay so I I had that clear great if if you feel it like that Sam like to get more visibility and get more feedback on this we would love to include that in our newsletter to share with the community to get more feedback about this process and then probably you can share the proposal I'm going to share that to ya Thank You that'd be great I think the more eyes on it and input the better so um just as I've been thinking about things that would be really big value

adds that it could offer in particular around the EIP centric process and highlighting where things are as far as efi and sort of a like something that was has been requested from the community recently as a visual way of seeing the e IPS going through the process and we have-we don't really have a way to do that at the moment mm-hmm Oh like a little map or something at the top of the EIP page that's just like like maybe even a little animation that's like SVG or something like that that goes from draft and like has an arrow pointing to the next step but that next step is yellow or something I'm kind of visualizing it off to write it

down and MS paint or Photoshop or something the even more specifically on the the EF I like things that are in the that are eligible for inclusion and where they are in that process and just seeing it and then seeing where things are and what the next step are so we don't get another all this e IPS in what status nobody knew yeah the biggest hurdle with changing the EIP process that then gets reflected on a IPS theorem org is the fact that Nik Johnson's bot doesn't have documentation so only those who really dive in like know how to do anything with it but like if if if we up to

upgrade the bot like for kit make it better and then have documentation with it someone like me or James or someone with Python knowledge could go in and do it yeah I took a stab at that I gave up pretty fast you know I do know a little bit of Python so I could actually help with that I'm not amazing at it but that was my old my old life was a Python life nice or not I mean yeah Sam who's who's on the etherium dork team that does Python do you do it I it's been a few years but I would be happy to take a look I mean that's part of this investigation I assume like you said it

sounds better to just kind of work off the existing BOTS improve that add functionality to copy over this content to a theory morg so it's definitely something that I could help look into and real quick just for my knowledge is this a Jekyll base side or is this something completely proprietary what's what's it doing in theory morg yes and then also what the EIP site would be since then I'm guessing it's more of an extension of it than a whole new thing so I believe the current IP site is a Jekyll I mean yeah sorry I meant if there's a new one being created no so if theory morgue is a view press

site so it's based off of UJS but it's very similar to Jekyll in the sense that it it's a statically generated website so like from markdown source files it will create and build actual HTML output so like the fortunate piece of that like is that they're very compatible together and I think could work well without too many surprises okay sounds good any other comments or questions go okay thanks so much Sam we'll do the next steps I talked about earlier and thanks so much for bringing this up this

is gonna be a real good change for every everything awesome yeah thank you for the feedback guys I'll try to get like a more formal proposal to you guys at some point next week great um to up or agenda item two is the code of conduct referring to the etherium cat herders code of conduct I didn't make this agenda item could someone tell me if this is a change to the e CH stuff or if this is a thing for the core devs that actually carry over from the past two meetings that we were trying to come up with the code of conduct for general etherium platform the gator or the other

telegram platform it is just a carry over and it was initiated by channel but I don't see him again in this meeting so if anybody else has any update on it on like how to proceed on that we can go ahead discuss it or maybe in the next meeting I will bring it I think agenda I'm usually written oh go ahead James Oh mine mine is less on doing a code of conduct and the etherium in in this like porting over and figuring out what ports over but I do think it would be good to have some guidelines written around how github works that sort of doesn't exactly work well like there are certain

things that github can do that we've had normal we've had like a normal expectations around how to manage those features but that's because it's github wasn't made to be do the EIP repository kind of work it was made to be a code repository so like some examples would be it would be good if it was a norm for AIP editors not to approve their own AI piece to draft yeah yeah or it would be good that other editors that editors don't change people's poll requests don't like don't edit them on behalf of other people without permission because technically you can because

usually you're in a code environment but this is like a standards environment so there I think there are certain things like that it would be good to clarify I completely agree with James and I said I'm saying that if the person who made this part of the agenda is referring to making a code of conduct for discussing a ip's within the repo I think that should be low priority because most of it civil and most of it is outside of the EIP repo into a theory of magicians where they have their own spoken or unspoken code of conduct and they referee that so yeah that should be low priority in my opinion except for

James's idea but that's more of a that's less of a code of conduct and more of an instruction guide I'd say right James yeah it's like a expectation and standards for the okay so I'll get in touch with Donna and with James and we'll try to work on this agenda item and see where does it go so we can probably move on to next agenda item great number three is progress on change in EIP status and repo cleanup the first sub sub item is Brent's PR change to the status of a ip3 yeah I did speaking of code of conduct I did the

pull request to change that status and I had some stuff that I had included on the bottom in detailing some notes of what I was doing why I was doing it and whose approval I got and everything but but someone else I'm not sure who accepted it but they totally changed all that and basically all they did has changed the status from draft to abandon but there was discussion going on that it shouldn't go to abandon but anyway it got accepted in that state so that was kind of confusing to me because I didn't have any control over that they totally overrode my pull request and just they just basically just changed the status but anyway so I didn't know if if I did it wrong or if that person really did

the right thing or what is the process but anyway but anyway so that's the it's been accepted and the change and the only thing that changed is the status changed from a draft to abandon so I'm not sure I'm kind of thinking pooja and I were discussing it shouldn't go to abandon because that can be resurrected but she was saying maybe it should go to superseded and I did so and the original author says yeah it might be superseded by the 6465 rule stuff and I try to do some research on that and it looks like EW what 50 might be a superseding to that but anyway I'm I'm just kind of lost there yeah and I think part of the reason this is gonna be difficult at

first and we might want to put a pause on it in my opinion is because if we're redoing rules for EIP one what we're gonna end up doing is changing a lot of these statuses and then going back and having to readjust ax Phi or at were sorry change the status again once we come up with you know a definitive status process we have you know the ones we have right now are probably gonna stay for the most part is my guess but we might need to include especially for ERC's a better word for one of them and then go through all the e IPS and change it so I I think that it might be good if until we get like new editors who are

like and there's like an actual like onboarding process for editors where that we have like some of the expected rules about discussing this with people on a PR and we have the new AIP one stuff that we kind of wrap up on over the next hopefully six months because I know these things can go slow sometimes I we might put this on pause but I want to hear what you think Brent cuz you've been working hard on this and if you think it's worth it or not yeah that sounds great exactly because when that happened with that one I basically put all my work on pause cuz cuz I want to know what the way it's supposed to be done so that I could help do it right and and and tell me know what that is I definitely am okay with waiting yeah

let's just do that I'd say anyone else have comments yeah actually I just want to add some thoughts here like this started from the list of the IPS that we started to you know kina and as per our discussion has been mentioned that Martin was the author and Martin said that it should go for superseded by don't get lost somewhere so as you are suggesting that we should be working on the new AIP editors I try to kind of list some selection criteria and I was thinking of you know creating a Google Form that may

be distributed among the coders who would like to be a part of VIP process or would like to be an EIP editor to support the process so I have kind of listed some questions here and would have feedback from people and know how we can proceed like this is something of very high priority to get more EIP editors on board and I'm looking for these steps the process is that we should be following here okay great okay and this is for selection criteria okay I like yeah I had seen this she Google sheets before but it has more stuff now great yeah I mean like I found

that there are some VIPs that is the next item there are some VIPs which are in final call for like about six months or so and I am also getting lost like how we can make these things moving how dcpip should be changed because I'm not sure if these VIPs listed here in the final call are still a valid IP that's number one and if it is why it is not in the final or accepted States how we can change the state got it okay yeah so I guess the consensus here is put those put the clean up and changing the state on hold and focus on both

improving EIP one until we're satisfied and onboarding new editors and coming up with a process that the old editors agree upon Nessa not necessarily but that would make it easier because although I I technically have ultimate authority from a settings and github and technical perspective to add editors I'd like to have the buy-in from the editors we currently have before doing that so yeah that sounds like a great idea so like we should be focusing as we should be focusing on idioms for the EAP one and just on the onboarding more AIP

editors so any further ideas on this onboarding process would be great to have not if not in this meeting that maybe in next meeting we would like to discuss something and on priority yeah set up an assessed state of priorities for you means set up a state of priorities for each thing we're doing yeah and also some of them are gonna require an order like most things in my opinion are on hold until AIP one gets edited and the reason I'm saying that is like for instance the EIP bot it's gonna have to have new features based on feedback from e-i p1 and the changing and cleanup VIPs it's gonna have to wait until a IP one and the role of editors is something that is any IP one and will

want to change before we bring on new editors so I think if we spend the next month or two months focusing on e IP one and also getting a clearer understanding of how we can approve those PRS that we're going to talk about in a few addenda items from now I think that would be valuable sounds great other comments there there's one thing I would say I would get thoughts on from the group that could be something we do in the shorter term that I've been trying to work on for a while which is I've got buy-in from most of the EIP editors at this point is that a IPS that haven't been touched for six months should go

inactive and having the bot do that automatically and in fact having the bot do that for all of the IPS at once and then having that be like a starting point for a lot of these discussions interesting so why would that explain your thoughts behind it being a starting point for for this stuff because if things if the bot came in and changed your EIP to abandoned I would I might be upset if I haven't abandoned it but if if bot came in there's a lot of stuff that just kind of disappeared and a lot of people that aren't even around anymore and hard to find so going into eg IP and trying to

figure out the status of each one is gonna be a ton of work and some of that is more more directly like will will lead to something and then some can be kind of somewhat just lost into trying to find someone who never even cared about it anymore so if we have the first step be a everything that's older than six months that hasn't been touched it's moved to inactive than anyone that cares about their status can say oh well actually and then it makes room for people to interact with the process and and have that be a standard moving forward where if something doesn't happen on any IP for six months it gets

moved to inactive that isn't a value judgment it's a it's a part of the process and it can always be moved to wherever else it ends up going yeah that sounds really good is it active currently in the IP one I'm blanking on that okay so we can't do that step two the IP one has changed right I guess that one part a VIP one I think I'm not sure if a complete overhaul of the IP one would be but just adding in one status that all the IP editors agree with feels like a easier thing to do then try to change some of these other things yeah and we can change the IP one

incrementally that's another thing to kind of discuss if we need an big pr2 overhaul a lot of aspects a bunch of PRS to overhaul various aspects or a combination but I agree with you that this change can be put in and then whoever wants to get used to the bot this can be their first task to be able to get the bot to make everything inactive or something like that yep in a community bounty for that I think would be how I've been thinking a good way to yeah we could do a we could do a github or uh what's a call not get going get coin grant specifically for this EIP

initiative let's add that to the agenda for next time cuz I need to flesh out that idea in my head but whoever's taking notes let's add that to the agenda next time and yeah that's kind of it for me as far as those thoughts who has comments it might be good to announce that to current big holders a new piece of creditors authors before that gets executed but that's a good idea mate yeah it sounds like James talked to them and if they like it then we need to have it at least you know at least a three week discussion on the PR about it and try to advertise it on

Twitter and read it but that's that's more for procedural stuff like it's probably gonna get approved but it would be unwise for us to just assume that we should go in and improve it without a last call phase and without a few other things so the big thing is these decisions that we make about EIP one and other stuff that like it most things need to go into last call including the IP one so that's gonna be a not a strike that's just gonna be a slowdown variable other comments yeah I think that'd be great it'll especially clean up the main ethier name.org site

because there's a lot of abandoned ones on there that's a lot of noise makes art need anything on that page not knowing great I I may have a question over here maybe to to James like we are stopping the cleanup process for now in the cleaner process we were initially considering the EAP that has changed the first attacked like from WIP to draft or at least they are in draft so when this board is going to change them to all inactive so what would be the next step then like do we need to reach out to the editors of all the inactive one and then

start working from there or how is it going to affect the entire process the next step I would for that I would say is when we do it we have a reach out to here if you have if you have any thoughts or want to talk about any IP that you bring so that anyone who says oh hey I want to X then they know exactly where to go to so as and then have that be sounds like like some people on the other side of that to be there to help them do whatever it is that they want to do with their IP is there any role of the telegram that is there for change of status to accept as a draft that that is recently been

created I'm not sure I understand your question I'm talking about the telegram group that talks about the EIP for just let me rename the merge to draft one that I made that's what I'm referring to is it something that is playing any significant rule here because I'm asking this question because I may have been the one of the editors who's EIP is there not a teacher sodium may have been one of the authors who CIP is there it is inactive for past six month and I'm kind of lost like where to move it it was I I submitted the PR there was some discussion going on and I have to flash it more and then move it to draft so what is the next step for

people like me um generally right now the bots if you're you can try to merge wait let me look and see there the bot should do something automatically I'm not familiar enough with the bot - no but I know drafts get automatically added as a draft but are you trying to get it to accepted no no - the draft is it a PR or an issue it is in 1925 let me go to it and see what what's up I may have been missing the pier number but

yeah fine I will take it offline with James and you okay that sounds good just to give my thoughts on I created that the channel as a kind of a test to see what happened the hope was that if we get all of the PR drafts to into one place then the IP editors would have an easy way of finding it I don't know if anyone here knows this maybe I should give background on the time grew my announcement group I mean so so do you want to you know publicize this so people if they want to get their draft to be you know I mean of course it is in the oil called F meeting so people would know about it but is it is it something that you are looking forward to getting

it publicized or is it something that needs to be not very open to public what is the idea there publicized okay if someone wants their IP did their polar press to be put there I'd be happy to help get it to their the idea was to collect all of the drafts all of the requests for merge of drafts into one place so that they don't get lost in all the other places where they are because right now it's kind of hard for ap editors to find them so my my my thought was if we remove as much friction around that as possible to where EP editors can just sort of click look okay great approve and merge as being an an easier way to help some of this process move

along yeah dad basically answers my initial questions thank you so much all right any other comments on that and if people have feedback on that or ways I can do that better or just thoughts I'm also would like to hear that you great so the next one selection criteria for any IP editor we went over that a little bit that's just basically Puja looking over that section of the Google Doc and leaving comments right yeah that's correct any any other comments on that okay change status of e IP 233 and 223 78 which is the upgrade meta EIP and the

efi from meta to informational I can be EAP gator discussion one of somebody they suggested that they are not willing to accept I mean not willing to some day they think it is not right to be updated to e IP one because they seems it seems to be more of you know informational and I do agree to it like metal 2 3 3 is kind of a template that is provided for all the upgrade meta going forward from Istanbul and before that we did not have

this kind of template again the two three seven eight that is e IP for EFI they'll that lists all the EIP that has been eligible for inclusion so we think that it is something that should not be labeled as meta EEP because meta makes it mandatory to be followed and we cannot just kept it and informational just make it optional there so efi is good for the quarry IPS that it that we are following right now but EAP 2 3 3 we are trying to follow but I think it's more I mean my my thought is it's good to be on information and that was again the thought coming up in the EAP kita

but would love to hear from other people what are their though I think those should be an active status I think the active status was made for ones that are going to be living documents that are changed including EIP one oh yes and and the the hard fork meta one the ideal from for me would be for all of the information in those to go to e IP one because that's where that information should be the actual registry of what is efi and what isn't and where their status is it would be a active everything so yeah that sounds good

so the formal process for hard Forks that EIP you want the whole thing transferred into the IP one or do you want a reference in the IP one to it i so I've already done a PR to write the context like the contents of of it of what a hard fork is and why and all that stuff in there in di p1 what we would leave there would be the template okay intro or or we could move the template into yep you one III just I see value and having any information all be put into one place so we don't so we all know exactly where the single source of truth is for everything VIP related fragmenting it out means people won't be

able to find it yes so I think I think you're I need to think about it more but initially I agree with you that having definitions especially for what some terminology means should be any IP one if it's very important like hard fork slash network upgrade and so yes but then the template itself because it's a little bulky might need to stay in 233 and then we can just say go to 233 to see the template or whatever yep yeah something like that yep great oh okay any other comments the next time just says next steps and

we already talked about that a little bit for the Sam's next steps are to make it a little more make the plans a little more formal get more information on it and then talk to us in telegram and make another telegram channel probably for people who really want to help potentially make a get coin grant once that's more formalized in the next meeting we can talk about specific steps like they get coin grant and stuff like that and then put a pause on cleaning up the EIP repo and then additionally working on getting editor by and for some of these steps while we do changes

to the ip1 so that's how I understand what the next steps are for like between now and two weeks from now what about what about you all number three but yeah that covers all so yeah we're good great all right it's just an item number four is survey on AIP process target audience - core devs yeah I can talk about that - yeah so the these meetings are called improvement process for VIPs improvement just kind of assume change

change in a positive way there's two fundamental ways to do that you could either move towards something move towards something like a goal or set of values move away from something moving towards usually called goal setting moving ways called problem solving and then there's all straight alternatives to that where you set up a system that solves problems automatically or set of set of conditions that create a produced result but I think in the first meeting Hudson started by asking frustrations from the group I think that's good that's a good way to identify problems to start solving them I think a

good idea would beat six than that two more stakeholders and a easy quick way to do that is with the simple survey so I was suggesting that we create a Google form and send it out to cordobes IP editors and past authors it's just to get a general feel for what the state is currently for the IP process and things that can be improved on problems that resolves um my suggestion would be just two questions what are your current frustrations with the EPI process and ordering fears with the OB process that would be a good indicator what could be solved it sounds good to me I don't see

a downside we might want to add do you want to be involved in the EIP improvement process group and I I would like to get background information for each person that is submitting a survey and I don't mean like super extensive what I mean is like what role are you in the community which would be e IP editor I P writer community member Kaur dev ERC writer and then reference if they have written an EIP what's an example of an EIP they've written and then a name and the reason for that would be to rank so like we would be and so someone who's

never interacted with the EIP process we want to take their opinions lighter than someone who has I think but I'm I'll defer to Edison on that because I think you have more experience on that I think that's a good idea weighting them by past experience with the process I think would be very valuable for that kind of surgeon okay sounds like a good idea any other comments I think it's a great idea as well and I can I can like advertise it across stuff as well as everybody else on the call and we could put it in the newsletter and cat herders Twitter and then I could have the etherium account retweeted yeah

I can I can help make this survey or make this make the forum I guess my I would need help with who descended out to as well as everything you just mentioned which is great cool I think of those Google surveys that can get converted to a CSV or like a Google sheet that you can then share with people okay perfect next up update on proposed changes to e IP one to reduce dependence on all core devs that's a PR by Brian or Bryant Bryant

I think FUBU lubu during the great prog powder baits of nineteen twenty nineteen to twenty twenty it became clear that the approval of core devs free IPs to move Pro forward in the process okay so this is just someone seeking comments for any IP he should have really put this on a etherion Magicians post but so I might suggest that as a comment since this is a process improvement that's at

a technical level well I guess it's political to you I don't know what do you all think I don't know yeah you have to look at this more we can just skip this one and bring it up the first of the meeting next time I have a question here I'm like well creating this agenda item I was trying to gather information and the topic that was under discussion in some of the other forums so is it something that we should be continuing in future or is it something that can be drawn because I thought that this is some improvement suggested to EIP one and we may give it a look of an like the group may give it a look and discuss something about

something good that we should become Denis or we can just skip this one I think for the purposes of our meetings and improvements we should skip it I think this goes too deep in the weeds right now for what we're trying to do okay the next one change hard fork to network upgrade that's Tim yeah except like overall I think people were generally favorable for it yeah I'm not sure with the Deaf is I like the idea as long as the first time Network upgrade

is mentioned in any document it has a KA hard fork in parenthesis why I would kind of disagree like I feel we have like this conversation last time on the on the call but it feels like a hard fork is a potential result in our grade but they don't all need the hard Forks I guess but I don't see them as like I saw them as synonyms okay because like it always in my opinion on a technical level anytime the network upgrades there is always a hard fork because there is always a split in the network even if it's for a second and there's already there's always at least one block mind on the other chain and so that means the

other chain continued on for X amount of time detail I think I think if we have the aka hard fork its kind of I don't know yeah I think we lose I was on this I was on your side of of technically it is a hard fork but I came over to Tim side and the way of always calling it upgrades and the reason part of the reasoning that got me was that there's a while there's a technical definition of hard fork there's a community

expectation and I see it all the time that a hard fork means there's a net there's a community split putting or a new coin is being made which hasn't happened with any of the upgrades so specifically in Bitcoin culture a hard fork doesn't mean means that there is a community split I think the definition is changing over time I need to look into and convince myself if that change is here not yet yeah but yeah great points um I'll personally think about it more other thoughts did I represent that well Tim yeah I think you did I think Hudson you know I don't want

to rehash this whole conversation because we have two minutes left but if you listen to the recording of that call where we discuss the EPR I think you'll get a lot more nuance there perfect yeah I do need to look back on that was that the previous meeting or okay sounds good we only have about a minute or two left should we let's go to adding table of contents to e IP one and then I think we should skip six and seven but what's the usual way to go about this because I've missed enough meetings that I don't know that's fine I mean we were just like

most of their action item has been already been covered so yeah we can just discuss the PR by James that should be fine great go ahead I why it's a it's a PR it's in there but I don't know the path of getting it it's an it's an it's a yeah if you want to edit that doesn't have a clear way of getting it into an estate that it gets merged is it just making a table of contents and that's it it's the table of contacts and I added the stuff from the hard fork meta EIP about hard Forks and I up great and I changed the vented network upgrades so some of those could be split out which

has been on my to-do list just like the general path it doesn't make sense to make any IP to make up some of these changes or I would say we shouldn't do that but then what do we do I think it would be nice if oh it's already it's already okay nevermind I see there's a description in the conversation a section for the EIP centric model the thing I would have taken with is this the EIP centric model is that well is that well-defined yet because have we even gone through it once technically the parts that are well-defined I included okay I I almost wouldn't define the EIP centric model in

the IP one rather I would link to ideas around it until it's more fleshed out and it's gone through an iteration or two because then we'll have to just go back in and change it and if we're bound to EIP one then it'll be complicated yeah the the reasoning I went I did I moved in d1 was Alex Bruce Aussie didn't what recommended before I merged the e I've the EFI to draft that I move it into yep u1 and so that's where this kind of limbo started happening got it okay

maybe split this out so that the IP centric model is its own PR and the other two staying because the other two are not controversial at all from what I can see it's just porting content I have something here to say that I discussed in one of the meeting so that was related to this IP centric model itself my I was trying to encourage people here to add this process because this e IP centric model is the model that we are going to do for Berlin I'm not sure if we are going to continue or do a change because for forests and bulb I did something something else and it is

highly probable that we should come up with some some new or be better alternative for taking this upgrade forward so my suggestion here was to add a motivation section in the metal AP of upgrade and in that we explain the process that is being followed for that particular approved upgrade because etherium is you know it's something one of a one of a kind we keep on experimenting and every time going back to EA p1 and changing may not be a good idea but what we can do to give this constant information to make this constant information available to community is we keep it adding on the meta if for an update in that we mentioned the process

that we follow don't be changed we don't have to go back and change the ap1 okay so you're saying 'hey i p1 should include maybe maybe a reference to the EIP that's a like an informational IP let's let's I guess this way would be the IP one says the the phrase a IP centric model for the chart that has the the hard Forks baby no the Jim James yep PR already proposes something in which they are categorizing all the upgrades that has been done in aetherium so far so I'm assuming I mean I think I saw I'm not very sure of it but I saw that they

are also gonna add meta if for the Berlin that is coming up and in that meta EEP of Berlin we just mentioned the number of meta if they're saying that for Berlin we are gonna refer this my type that will list all the e IPS that will go into the upgrade so what my suggestion here is when we are creating this meta EEP for Berlin we should add a section of motivation which was missing in all of the previous upgrade but was present in the Muir glacier that James did and it was really a good thing to explain why we are doing it how we are doing it and everything in one place because for every upgrade community will go to the meta if of that update that is

the central information for one particular upgrade and EIT one will contain the name of that upgrade plus the meta if for that upgrade so we may not have to change it every time we will just keep on adding as we go sounds good to me the I would I would rather work on getting a process for keeping the IP one up-to-date so part of that I think I would push back on one concern here is like if we do that then the previous thing would get lost somewhere I so I know we're going a little bit over time

also I'll try to keep this so there is a there is a reason to not have things be sorry I'm taking care of my nephews at the moment when as you nice yeah they're super cute the reason I don't want to necessarily have a IPS that have part of this the history of things is because there is a certain loyalty to the process that happens and I saw this in the et Cie repos around the EC IPs where there was a lot of discussion about whether or not something should happen but a lot of the people had strong feelings because of the process and not actually from a looking critically like they were they were so strong on the

idea of immune ability that they didn't have a critical discussion about the topic at hand they were talking about a meta version of the thing of the meta version and it just became really not a an intractable way to have some of these conversations interesting okay I'll need to think about that more I'll leave a comment today on that EIP that you made yeah and I got the feedback from your glacier that we shouldn't have this is from the from yet the editors that that information shouldn't be there it should be any IP one for like my whole like context about why I proposed near

glacier and stuff might the feedback I received was that's not that's irregular and not normal to power the caucus to dope so I'm not saying that is that we should do either one it's like we should decide which one we should be doing I probably we can think around it election to matter you have to keep this information contained somewhere because I think that the information about the schedule based upgrade that we did for Istanbul is lost it's very difficult to find it anywhere it's not mentioned in the meta EEP of the upgrade or neither in the EAP one and if we keep on changing we are never going to get the

history of that I see both sides all right let's discuss it later again yeah let's discuss it again and and the EIP and maybe on the meeting later too with that let's end the meeting because we're already over time and thanks everyone for coming we will meet again in two weeks and less yeah wait what's that day the 25th the end of things going on then that I know of because all the conferences are canceled forever so we will see all in two weeks thank you all Thanks