EIPIP Meeting 4

Transcript

all right hi everyone and welcome to EIU meeting number four thanks pooja for making the agenda first off is there anyone who wants to lead the meeting I'm perfectly fine doing it but since I haven't been here for the last few if anyone really feels the urge to run it who's been kind of taking lead on it feel free if not I'll be going ahead with it so anyone want to take it up I can do that okay awesome pooja thank you so much so the agenda we have prepared with the discussion in the telegram group so I'm gonna just read

out the agenda item and if somebody would want to suggest something note that they would want to discuss today please go ahead and let us know the first agenda item is how do we keep the official ETM resource up-to-date like white paper yellow paper journal paper etc second one is code of conduct we did some discussion in the previous call on this particular item so if we would would like to continue that the next item is progress on e IP repo cleaner we were having a discussion around how we can see all current GIPS that are in effect so the repo cleanup was one of the primary issue that we would want to

solve in order to get this EAP process right in working perfectly for us fourth agenda item is update on James P are made to AIP one we had some discussion on this topic as well in the previous call you would like to see if there is something more to discuss on it next is process documentation I added this item because I feel that there is a need of documentation although I believe there are not available itself but we might would want to update that or if something is missing might want to create some new documentation that could be helpful for the community next is a review action item from the previous

any other business or the next con so does anybody would like to add anything else I'd like to do the review first so that way I could just get out of the way of my glass call and maybe I just get Hudson up to speed with what we talked about the last couple of calls that's perfectly all right so we should start with the review action item Hudson you can take over now okay great so for the this is the review what was that oh is this for review action items or is this number for James I hope are you talking

about the action item from the previous call or is it from the PIA that you made the previous call okay number six number six oh yeah yeah I can't see the agenda because I'm driving but I had updates from last stop since the last meeting about it okay so let me just go to the so I should go to the action items then pretty much for the last meeting no problem so James Hancock will follow up with Hudson to make changes to the bots for the proposed for the proposal discussed in the EIP IP meeting number

two so for there no problem oh okay so someone asked me on on telegram I forgot who because I'm behind on messages on there just a little bit who made that bot it's Nick Johnson and I believe that someone else knows how to work with it and I gotta find who that is because someone's been making PR changes to it but it's a junk documented robot named well sure Nick Johnson and I ni j o hn s Owen yeah yeah anyone have a contact info for

that yeah he's not on telegram I believe he's on get her in Twitter okay thanks yeah so I can oh yeah he's on github for sure we could tag him and stuff okay yeah I'd like to get involved in that and see what's going on yeah um all right Tim Biko to create a PR to replace the etherium hard fork with aetherium network upgrade in the IP one I did that the PR is live no one has commented on it not I think I mentioned it on the last coordinates call I'm I'm not sure how to move this forward can you send me a link to it today and I'll just say good job on it

in a comment yeah you might does someone want to make a comment that there there was there's near unanimous support but there are some disagreements but that it appears that that's a minority position do we want to say anything like that or just not open a wound that's I think if people if people have a concern against it they're free to go on the PR just posted in the shop okay perfect all right and actually for the first action item with James what the changes to the bots that's from meeting - right yeah it says it's from meaning - okay so

we figured out who would do it or resources okay we can see who's skilled at that or if Nick knows anybody or if Nick can do it yeah I talked with Sam who was gonna help who could help with the website for the IPS but he wasn't interested in doing the bot okay so Sam from the EF right yep okay yeah Winslow okay third item James H to split current PR and - first one would be formatting adding the list of upgrades and merge with Tim's PR and to the rest of the content of the current

PRS Plus suggestions for a better definition of network upgrades contentious network upgrades roadmap upgrades and hot fix upgrades no problem alright next one create a guide for the EIP champions setting expectations and continuation - mentor program that was discussed in the VIP IP meeting number one I don't think anyone's done that that I saw and that might be we can do that in parallel yeah what do y'all think of that yeah we can start some document and keep on adding stuff okay things to reconvene on in general is

upgrades to terminology what's that referring to there was discussion about D all those upgrades definition so if we would like to further define that or if James would want to add that to the PR so it was just like if we would like to reconvene on it and make it more provide more clarity on what terminology that we are gonna use in future for update what kind of afraid mm-hmm alright in the last action item we can take the existing code of conduct available on the e CH repo just change the scope of impact we can continue the discussion this meeting yeah that's why I have added you know in this agenda item as

well but I don't see Donald joining in so maybe they have to skip it for this meeting no problem yeah that's that's a good idea good call alright so let's go back to the agenda items I think unless there was something else I had one more follow-up sure so we talked a little bit on telegram about maybe using source spread on the edge repo and I don't feel like it's a good idea anymore alright I don't recommend that's doing that okay what's the reasoning why I met with the team I had the idea I like their implementation doesn't seem to fit

very well and just in general it was kind of a weird experience okay fair enough anybody have comments on that before we move back to the regular agenda all right pooja you can take it back okay the first agenda item is proposed by Tim how do we keep the official aetherium resources up-to-date sure yeah Luis and I were having a conversation about this where he brought this up like it's true that there's you know there's

often like a big lag in trying to get to get stuff like the yellow paper the beige paper and whatnot up-to-date and it's not like it's not trivial to do but it's also not rocket science so maybe it would be possible to they have either either grants or whatnot from the EF when we have hard Forks or through the cat herders they get to get that updated yeah I'm curious what I guess what everybody thinks yeah I am I am conflicted on number one if it's worth our time and money right now or if it's even in the scope of what we're trying

to do with a IP IP and the reason for that is the reason so first of all the reason that it would be in scope in general for the IP IP is if it's like a requirement for to update the yellow paper beige paper jello paper if you were to make a quarry IP change so that would be one of the only reasons I can think of for us to traverse into that area and then secondly that's like a undertaking in and of itself because there's been long discussions on the all

core devs meetings of which one is should be considered by the community as canonical because if we have people upgrading who can upgrade the yellow paper versus the beige paper versus the jello paper like what like who would be responsible for that and as there's someone we can find that would be up for that and I guess it's very dependent on if we can find someone who'd be up for that and which one they want to do my guess would be the jello paper that would be the one I'd pick because it actually has a way to generate test from I think it's written in K or some other single letter language that would allow

for automated test generation once the specification is entered to two thoughts on this one in general we have a problem that if if someone wants to look at how to make a client you have to crawl through the IP rebo and sort of figure out very deceptive I do they're very de separate information and it's just in general hard to figure out what the IP is blocked what no I was the current state of this Bank

I guess you could say it that way there's not an easy way to get that so as far as making that easier that that would be really helpful I had a second thought oh that maybe this is something that like beauty bounties would be a good idea yeah I think that's fair I think it is something thinking about it a little more in my opinion this is something that we shouldn't heavily focus on as like something that has to get done it shouldn't be necessarily a backburner item but something in between

where we focused mostly on e IP one upgrades and recruiting more e IP editors and some of the other things we have his focus on the agenda or on the previous agendas in this one but if that doesn't get done because we can't find someone or we can't get funding that wouldn't be considered the end of the world that that's where I stand on that other comments yeah I just just wanted to add on top of this that I not aware of different papers I can talk about but one of my sort is can you hear me yes we can hear you sorry my there is no green

under your hood you are enjoy yes so my only thing also I just wanna add I think one of the missing like key thing missing today and if for people to understand is I think Tim I told you about when equivalent to the program Bitcoin from Jimmy song like a book but actually go through every step of what if you're young Easter day and and if like this would be a key element and I think that's a sort of work and project that the EF should sponsored and it would be like a very long undertake to be honest but very important one mastering material because like there is

this core is public but mastering the theory I'm like mastery Bitcoin is quite on the surface in a mini extent versus program Bitcoin you actually get into the deep of like here or the theorization the way you actually sign a message the way you actually construct transaction and stuff like that which is really much into the death that we we need to bring more core dev more more brain into the system yes the other boot program in Bitcoin yes yes from Jimmy song I will invite you to you to have a look it's a terrific book yeah I've

heard of that one before if if we start on this with eath 1.0 and it takes one to two years for us to kind of get this all done would that be kind of all for nothing because it'll be consumed in two eath 2.0 or is there does anyone have a better idea on timelines or how I used to be necessary I think no matter what work we put in in f1 the one it wouldn't be a lost cause because first of all the timeline for each 2.0 is still unknown and until then I don't believe we should stop focusing on each one and even everything we get

we like we will inherit a lot of things from if one int with two and as such the work and the to formalize and teach it we'd already wouldn't be lost good fair point B even ten yeah maybe even they add on to that there whatever we invest into a process like this now would be helpful even in terms of just knowing how to invest in a process like this even if it needs to be redone for East 2.0 but also even even aside from eighth one and eath to the EVM is probably here to stay I mean there will be enough other projects out there and it could be that it's worth us thinking somewhat altruistically that whatever we invest into eath one will probably find uses in other places also yes and I just want to

point out about the VM that Thomas the nevermind Accord the dev Korolev already had a print a day-long plantation that he he does in the U in in London explaining the the intricate bits of the Lybian we should probably return to him to see if he wants to extend it or even participate in such an effort that all sounds like a great idea to me my mind has changed we should pursue this at least to some level whoever wants to take this up as a sub part of the CIP IP process

ok is there anything else on that urgent item ok so moving on the next item is code of conduct I don't see down here but does anybody else would you like to discuss anything on this topic or if not then we can make it a next meeting can you elaborate in what what do you mean by code of conduct yeah let me first give this context of this particular item in the previous meeting we were discussing about what should be the code of contact for you know in general to be

implemented or enforced on the all hold of gator or any other public platform where people are interacting like how we can limit people I mean to avoid any kind of you know bad behavior bad communication and if people does that we can just keep them out of that particular Gator or telegram or any other groups so we have a TCH the etherium cat herder we have one code of conduct written by I'm sorry I'm missing Charles sometimes backs so we considered that as the baseline and we're trying to change the scope because that was specifically for the cat herders so we

were discussing if we can change the scope and make it in general to be applicable in the oil colder and similar channels of communication I William you wanted to add something I thought it was je la vie oh I'm sorry Indians I just reflecting on some experiences with and then just in general my github has certain features that I think would be good to establish some forums around that because the EIP repo is not the traditional way you would use github they didn't design it thinking

it would be a governing body for some amount of specifications so that I didn't really know what to do it I want to go like I don't want to we can just wave until Daniel comes but that my thinking was around Wow what how do we deal with github features in a way that maintains the spirit of what the IP repositories trying to do because people could do things that are not intended that wouldn't be comfortable for the group fairly easily sounds good so yeah I mean like we can take up this item in

our next meeting as well and probably will think around how to change the scope and as you mentioned that we should be considering github as well in mind while creating the scope for this the next agenda item is progress on e IP repo cleaner so this item we we are actually considering it from the very first meeting and I was thinking about it and I would like to share my screen and discuss a proposal that I have in mind that might help us I mean that's that's my thought process so I'm just gonna share my screen here is it visible now yes okay

so I was looking into this EW s dot ET m dot o rj / all it shows that we have about 180 VIPs those are in draft status by draft status it means that the initial tr4 they have been approved but they never moved from draft to any other state to understand this properly I was actually working on this presentation I'm just saying it please correct me if if my understanding is not correct at any point of time so these

are basically the types of VIP we divided into three categories three types meta standard informational standard is further divided into code networking interface and ERC as per the definition of COI IP my understanding is like we are gonna include core that comes from the standard track plus some of the metal a IP and rest all a IPS can be considered for the non core a IPS so based on this ap one and my understanding I created this process flow that is there for quarry IP what we talk about here is like right from the

idea to the draft state like idea is something that anybody any champion or anybody would like to share that I would like to draft any IP around this is it a visible idea community would support or not and that could be that could be the first stage so when when they get enough approval they write a draft and submit it and submit it as PR when this draft I'm talking about the quarry IP here and assuming that this is the current process James you can correct me if I have put the efi at the right place so my assumption is when it comes to draft a PR is submitted that is brought to the

all chordoma and we discuss about if that could be included for the EFI list or not eligible for inclusion list earlier this efi was in between accepted and final state where clients used to decide if we would like to implement it or if they would like to include it for the upgrade or not but now the process has changed and we are trying to put efi right after the draft status there are some VIPs which was started as draft but their champion decided not to pursue and those are categorized at abundant for now the AIP status of abandoned can be changed

at any point of time if some other champion comes into pictures and would like to first you this Eid once this efi once that is there in the efi list it has further further accepted as draft that is the first draft and when it comes to at this state this is being listed here as draft earlier than before this it is only a PR and cannot be shown over here so when we accept the first draft we can further improve it and keep on changing by requesting the full pull request every time but any change still we believe that AIP is matured enough so that it can be pursued once it is done and it and an author

believes that this EAP is completely mature we can put it into last call that lasts for 14 days and after the 14 days that can be changed the status can be changed to accept it if it is a kori IP they accepted one is where we need at least three clients should agree to implement it we try to enforce that these are the major clients so that most of the notes are updated accordingly and once this is accepted we can move on to final only if it is adopted or any upgrade is is deployed some of the IPS can remain there for forever after

forever life and their status cannot be changed the example is a VIP one which is again a meta ap but its status is live forever and is active after some time some AIP is maybe superseded by another AIP and these VIPs should be actually you know changed from the status of final to superseded to clean up the EIP repo that's my thought process and once it is superseded we cannot change the status of it any further similar similar process flow is designed for the non-core AIP now what I am proposing here is like we have this list of 180

IPs we know this we know these all of these are in the draft status and what as a cat litter or the people who are involved in the etherium improvement proposal cleanup of the EIP IP process they should be working on like first decide the types subtypes of these and what status they can get into by what status i mean like you know depending upon the duration or in the state or the process defined between these two states we can actually propose what should be the next stage for these particularly IPs and for that the to do that I can

think of is to create a checklist for each category of AIP by each category I mean the core networking interface ERC and whatever type of it is if we create the checklist based on that checklist we should be able to propose the new status for DCI piece and that should be a way to help out clean up of the EIT repositories does anybody want to comment on this or such as something yeah so I think that's a great idea I think one other column you might want to add to the excel document that has the type subtype and propose status is if we've communicated with the author and

what they have to say because I think to figure out the proposed status that's gonna be integral and additionally I saw just a few really small things I wanna propose to correct and some of the way you've categorized this very simple things you've got it like 95% 99% right the main ones are that active is not followed I don't think active has ever been followed by final so active is like its own little bubble so it doesn't have that arrow from final to active unless we want to propose that and then the

other thing is on slide 2 and what what we'll do pooja is if you send me this over email I'll add comments to it since it's a PowerPoint so you don't have to write all this down right now but informational es are separate than any of the other networking interface or ERC's so they shouldn't be in that dotted line informational e ip's are its own thing kind of in its own world or bubble yeah this dotted line what I am trying to represent here are the non-core VIPs I'm sorry because of this particular design it's not reflecting properly but the dotted line includes the EAP which would follow the non-core

EAP process Metta and core will follow the core EAP process because by the definition of Cory IPP standard try Cory IP plus meta a IP should follow the Corey IP process that is process flow that I try to you know picturise and slide three and four okay cool yeah I'm gonna share this document with you and then yes we can improve it further dad anyone else who wants the document I'm sure you can just ask pooja so I I didn't follow a hundred percent could I ask you just for the like is it possible to maybe summarize like exactly right I

guess could I ask you for a summary oh yeah so uh what I'm proposing here is like I think it's a need to clean up the EIP github to clean up the EAP Gator we need to go VIP by EAP whatever is there I see there are 180 IPS which are in draft status and I'm not sure if they would come in like author would like to pursue it or that may have been superseded on may have been rejected but they are still lying there so the proposal was to use this excel sheet and rightly come you know you're using this excel sheet we categorize it what type and subtype is

there and what can be the proposed s status family like if say for example a ip3 I know brent has been in touch with Martin with regards to a IP 3 so if before head and add that like where does this VIP stand is it something that Martin would like to pursue or is it something that Martin would like to close or has it been superseded by some other a IP so we can add that status here and following the process of the EIP if say it is corey IP then following the process of corey IP we can actually change the status from draft to any other status wherever it feels say it if

it is like superseded or you know it will is rejected we add that and just remove that from the list of drunk the idea is to minimize the list of VIPs in the list of Josh I see you not you're not proposing a change like a change in the whole flow of VIPs you're just proposing okay alright got it yeah I mean I just tried to picture eyes whatever is there any IP one there is no proposal from my and in the change of the process is just that yet textual information and I think visual information would help a lot so I just converted into this presentation no great great I just yeah yeah that presentation really help thanks for them

yeah that was great I have one concern if throughout the EIP IP process we decide to change any parts of that flow then would that be bad for the fact that we are changing drafts as we're changing the process and what I mean by that is like what if we decide to take out abandoned and make it something else like some kind of weird default State or what if we add a state to that like some intermediary state then we've just gone through and to 180 drafts and made them the old method when we have this new

method in progress that might not be a big concern that's just something that came to mind okay I think I'm not sure if it is only me or somebody else might have mistaken here the abandoned earlier I thought that abandoned means that AIP is not particularly in use and like you know it's like rejected kind of thing or on something similar to that but going by the EIP one I realized abandoned mean the EIT thought that was a good idea has been approved by you know by community they submitted the draft of the EIP but somehow the champion or the author

decided not to do that maybe they don't have time or something of funding or something like that so they are categorized and abundant but this special thing about this abundant status is it can be changed if somebody else comes into picture and would say that okay I want to pursue this AIP they can go ahead again and start moving that AIP so this abundant is not that it is gone forever because most of the cases like if it is superseded the state cannot be changed if it is rejected the state cannot be changed but if it is abundant the state can be changed ah I see I see and so if someone were to take over someone else's the IP the author on the

EIP would change the status would change and probably even the text of the EIP would change but it would but there might need to be something in the metadata at the top of the EIP to reflect that it was taken over so you have original author and then other authors and then it like a champion or whatever yeah that's what it means you okay cool we'll need to put in some changes to the EIP one template then the one that kind of says you need all these things on the top of your EIP like your name and the date and stuff like that to add if there are previous authors or previous champions just to make sure that that stays within the

history of the EIP okay there is one thing that I would like to highlight here is the quarry IP process flow that I just have made is as per tick current like there is no mention of efi in a IP one which James is trying to propose there in his PR to e IP one so earlier I was a I was raising some concern about adding that to a IP one directly because the e IP which talks about EFI is itself in the draft process that's a meta IP that contains some information but that

is still in the draft process so my recommendation here was to first change that see IP which reflects the efi or final and then it should be added to a IP one because as per the present a IP one with no change this efi section does not come there it comes in between accepted and final state of a IP so this is the slight change that we are proposing that is actually being followed for Berlin so it has been accepted by all cold air so we can add that any 81 great that sounds awesome

there to two things the for the author zinc for the author problem I've actually had run into an issue where there's a champion that was intersex sexually you're my my suggestion for fixing that one to have a champion section in the header of PID people who talked to talked about P IP and then you have the authors list anyone who has an author in reverse

chronological okay so actually we do not have template for each you know a standard EAP each category of a standard IP so what we can do is like create template for that and add it over there and in that we can actually suggest like whatever the chronic chronological order of author us has we can add it over there so the to do things that I can think of is like we need to create a checklist for each category of a IP so that we can decide if an EIP is enough and is in a position to change it to status because we have a lot of the IP that marrieds a change of strategy

number one number two we need a template for each category of standard e IP that is not available any IP one I mean I could not find that maybe I am missing out something so these two things if we can figure out I'm sure it's gonna help us a lot great that sounds awesome okay any more thoughts on it yeah good so I I just was that my my suggestion for having a champion section from other people so in the header there's authors this discussion too as far as authors of

champions to have a section that is that his for champions and update the Opera section to tell peak when I'm writing a piece it gets weird cuz you're like what order do I put things into I put myself on the front I put myself in the bag or just be more useful to see the authors in reverse chronological orders the oldest it was one servers the older ones are lower on the list so whenever it on an offer is added you add to the list whenever if I need to make or something or theaters need to change the IP to other person's hands all they have to do

is change the champion status which I'm much more comfortable yeah that makes a lot of sense yeah like 1559 ian is taking over as champion but I can't just magically Stoppers and he may not want to actually be an author they just want to be a champion but there is space for that so if there was a a separate item for champions then I would be a lot more comfortable adding that yeah this new person wants to take over you know that

makes a lot of sense that means that whatever AIP that has been in the status of abandoned we are trying to keep the original author as author and if somebody volunteers to champion that we are just at the champion and continuing with the AIP Brett did you have something yeah I just wanted to comment on AI p3 and 107 I've contacted those authors and I got a chance to talk with with James while he was in Salt Lake and he pointed out a little bit different way than I was proposing to change from draft abandoned and so I did implement that for

GIP three and at the bottom of VIP there was implemented section but since it hasn't been implemented I changed that to abandon I in X at the bottom and I put all the abandoned information down there and that's ready to do a poll request on which I was going to do I just wanted to let everyone know that I can put the link to that seeing in the in the chat but I just wanted everyone to know unless anyone has information about how I should do that different I plan on doing that poll request for that sometime in the next day or so and then I'll continue working on 107 and in finding more and and and working towards cleaning up the rest just want to let

everyone know that I would like to share this excel sheet with you as well in people who are contributing this to this process may keep on updating on the e8 is that way we would not be reaching out to say Martha already he had author of this Amy IP and yeah should that be a Google sheet instead yeah I would change it yeah I would then I can add like you you're gonna add the column to has the author been contacted I can put that kind of information in there as I do that okay perfect yeah what James is mentioning I think for the champion

section it might be good just to leave it as a single section not show past champions and current champions in the same section if we assume that there's only one champion currently and then I guess it would just be a top but if there if there's a possibility that could be both all champions at the same time we can label them as current compiled in parentheses or something yeah I would agree that the the author list is the history of contributors the champion should just be who is the current champion and if they're removed they're removed if they don't that they weren't added as author it would also

help when I was helping with late to be I was being a community champion for but I didn't know the tag stuff so I didn't want to be an author because I didn't write this specification so I would have loved to have been able to just be in the champion list and like have all that other stuff happen and then now I'm just rambling so all God do that yeah great so yeah what are one or two as champions didn't you yeah questions regarding to champion actually should we have

expectation in term of a tendency and and and like some requirements like time consuming requirement as in sort of a way to to protect against the IEP that gets you know little discussed because the guy is never here that make sense recommendations portion to have a champions are suggested not attended Stanford of calls that big good thing to put in Epione and also I would want the wonderful requirement requirement and /i

sort of yeah in the principle in requirement I would want the champion to also declare the interest in this a IP getting pushed because as we saw in part one of the problem that when you have people pushing ap without having direct interest it creates sort of a conspiracy theory or the idea that there is something hidden that doesn't get publicly discuss do you mean adding like a conflict of interest section for the champions it's it's a conflict of interest in no more like a reason why they wanted its themself

sort of a tithe motivation which is slightly headbutts motivation can also add you can easily hide either motivation and my point is that we should have clear reasoning why is this person is pushing this Pacifica brain and I'm going just to give you an example so the one I worked on which was white 20:28 I start where we clearly benefit from it because our proof like cost is finished by half and I think people as long as you provide clear and honest argument for why this is a cubicle

network but also thing while you are putting the effort to prove it to the network in the community I think it's sort of a requirement for anyone to believe that you you do it for action for the sake of a system I get where the curious um I'd have to think about it more cuz I'm on the fence like yeah yeah I like the idea of where it's it's good for people to be clear to know clearly

where people are coming from as far as the IPS and why well we have an annotation section for that yeah but usually the motivation is more like a technical motivation and less about why am i spending the effort to push it what would be the benefit of people knowing the reason for pushing it outside of a technical way so like enough yeah I mean it brings the like the transparency report saying you know I care enough because this and it's not completely useless because of this and also in the case of work by like

because it annoys it around the I'm sorry for that in the case of purpo the people will push into the court the court that didn't have direct interest in the sort of a look like from make look like on the outside of their window when some low be beyond it that didn't get disclosed it's also true for for things like like to and also the reason why I'm talking about leg two is because the fact that the person two motivations one person pushing it wasn't like you know it wasn't clear and oh don't I mean I know it's was you know that's and I think for a big to be but there was an issue there were I believe we because you you didn't have the technical

requirements you some people couldn't ask some specification that was so if you think that didn't get perfectly in line in my opinion I yeah and I think that I think a good compromise here or solution really is to expand the motivation section to include subsections of technical and non-technical when would that solve that slightly I think people should just be transparent to why there's been energy you know but for instance you are pushing technically interesting thing I think it's transparent you know why

you're you're someone unknown you work for a company and you pushing something very complicated then maybe we should know why it's interesting for you I mean just from the local neighborhood cynic putting a section into the IP doesn't mean that people will use it honestly I mean no one's gonna write my non-technical motivation is because I want to attack the network and subvert everything and make a 50 percent attack I mean I hope so I mean having it there means that it only will be used as well as the people who are using it care to and are capable of I'm not saying that's necessarily a reason not to do it but it isn't necessarily going to be a silver bullet either also this is a technical

standard this isn't a that this isn't I mean I don't know if technical standards I guess knowing a person's intention or suppose that intention shouldn't have an effect on technical standards beyond I want to use it for this use case which would be under technical motivation so I think we're kind of going down a slippery slope if we start including things that are non-technical and a technical specification in my my other general thought is we just coming to terms with that if someone is suggesting

it's because it benefits them somehow otherwise they wouldn't be the product now think I got all a I P authors suggested something that benefited them or they would never suggest it yeah yeah I think that's true like yeah and they do all the work and they do all of this stuff like they come to the core devs and they say hey I want this change it's a little R it's a little non realistic to say that everyone should do should not be doing something that benefits them individually somehow because that's the whole system kind of works that way like was like start where's he IP the

matter labs he had the zkg IP the random specifications and standards were all designed to benefit like the author did that because they thought it was better in a I'm looking at your comment Louis it doesn't mean that it's benefiting them in a bad way I don't know this dark where like the technical aspects of stark where's EIT but the IP I'd assume is there in order to help build the algorithms or the underlying platform in a way where it's easier for them to implement CK snarks or Starks I mean that's not bad it's good but I mean especially if we're gonna put this in

like a really strict sort of games your economics outlook yeah I mean anytime anybody invests effort and anything it's because they assume there's a certain level of utility that they're gonna get out of it so I would I'll go ahead uh maybe place like that would be more appropriate in the discussions to section with an introduction to a new champion if they're changed yeah that could be something that we can highly recommend in the discussions to link so not in the header stuff but like when you have a discussions to link like to the atheria magician's forum you include that in the etherion magician's forum post that'd be a great thing to add to

the recommendations yeah but an author needs to introduce themselves and their why they are why they are stepping up to champion okay yeah yeah I I like that idea I think we might need to know her yeah does that kind of fit in the realm Europe looking for that to go Louise sorry just I didn't catch your last but I mean those of us right now so let me I

think we should discuss HCC and just to to skew okay so we have reached and I'm not sure if you could cover any other agenda item any further but if anybody would like to bring up anything really quick oh wait see is it gonna run into our next meeting its next week oh never mind okay um maybe I'll just put the post this is a sort of open-ended personal question I mean I guess I sort of hope it's

relevant for other people also um a lot of the sort of action ish items that are coming up like maybe efforts to revise any of the various colored or jello papers or things like that I'd be interested in contributing to but I don't really know where to start or guidance for for EIU proposals or championship proposals or championship rolls have any good ideas about what sort of like method there might be for people who aren't capable of doing something fully on their own to be able to contribute talk in the telegram channel and someone who is more familiar

with the process can help you out is my recommendation so just say I am trying to accomplish this but I don't have a I don't have the knowledge - can I jump on a call with someone and I I would take that up some of the time and like I'm sure pooja James Tim other people who might be more familiar with the EIP process can help Brent Brent also alright cool great that's it the next meeting can be in two weeks from now yes sounds good to me there was some reference to maybe some people getting together by UC

see I see Tim just just left but I know Tim Tim's gonna be there is there anybody else who's interests of you mentioned maybe wanting to get together bye-bye Paris should we try and schedule something now I would say make a telegram chat of all the people who are gonna be there because you'll need one anyway to do more coordination than just made it make a date a time you'll need to also find a place all right great all right so then maybe so maybe a maybe I'll try and get in touch with people initially on the IP telegram and we'll try and work it from there yep that sounds great awesome thank you thank you bye