EIPIP Meeting 2

Transcript

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you hello hello oh there's someone here hey James hey Brent good morning yeah same you are you east coast or west coast I'm Utah so almost West customer oh nice I just wasn't you Utah not too long ago oh cool how about you I'm right now in California you're not near Salt Lake are

you I'm sorry say that you're not near like Salt Lake City are you yeah well sandy is a suburb of Salt Lake more or less oh my goodness I saw my my sister lives in Orem and my brother lives in Layton I think is what's called yeah yeah yeah so I've been driving in between those two houses for like the last three months oh that's a good Drive yeah yeah so I've been passing you yeah we'll have to get together next time I'm in town yeah yep ping me do lunch or something like that

dinner yep I actually went to Newmont University in 106 out 400k like nine months many years ago Wow so you grew up here then I did a I did middle school there in Salt Lake okay enter you in Northern California right now I mean yeah near your San Francisco but my mom's just here so I'm visiting see how Hudson and puja recovering can't

- without them yeah well we can get something good talking I'm gonna go grab a drink really quick but I'll be right back you

you herve you hi William you you [Music] my mic yes man is

mr. Tim oh now we're now we're cooking with gas everybody hey Pooja Maureen Tim good morning I am [Music] see if I can grab text from something I wrote earlier which I don't see yes we give it a little bit and then move

forward yeah I should we put a link in the awkward ends chat yes I think we should and we should probably should try and do that like a day early like we do for the Corps desk all going forward yeah you're right I can do that [Music] [Music]

evening in it Jamie hey hi James hello the condom emission columnist lexical quick afternoon we morning good afternoon the

gym yeah we'll do 30 more seconds and then let's go does anyone else have some for the things for the agenda if we have to emit it at the end puja and Hudson we're talking about knocking off a couple of VIPs working through to clean up some of them but I've done some of that work and I could make a little report of what I've done so far and see

if I'm going in the right direction yes that sounds like a great idea let me pull up the gender how do you mute telegram then you want to do that just like the desktop there we go I'll close the app like I would suggest uninstalling it

that's the radical that's what we need all right so I have the agenda here this is the e IP IP meeting I am hosting it Hudson isn't able to make it today after being sick the general purpose of this meeting is to improve the EFT process and thank you for everybody who's joining we have a really we have a three point agenda and then I have something I have some ideas I was to present on things that I've been thinking about by just articulating some of the things

I've been thinking about and let me just look through this just and just to clarify for me and then what he's listening afterwards and this is a very much a meeting of coming together about ideas and and proposing things this isn't proposals or official ones all of those will go through its own kind of a IPP IP and we just want to accelerate discussion around them so we can have a little bit more momentum to implement or during the first or during the most important issues to address

dividing into teams to come up with ideas for solutions and three the next call I'm not sure the best way to do that let me just share my screen here get the right button you have some Tim no sorry I am YouTube accident but yeah we still can't see your screen okay so I

guess we can just go into them my idea is there something else someone wants to bring up or something else to put on the agenda we can I don't know and we have a short meeting today that's fine and if anyone has other things to present please let that be known so going into EIP one there is kind of a lot going on and then just thinking in in general what is my experience over the last while is the important

information in AIP repository is sort of all over the place so if I want to find if I want to look at the hard fork I have to go into here and stew the hard fork many IP and then that tells me information about it there's an EIP for the process of art Forks which is another AIP then I there's the e IP that tracks if I which I wrote which it hasn't gone through yet and one of the reasons is is that it's it's it's confusing to have all of this different different information in different places does this the page you're on now that's a IP e3 morgue does that update from the e I really IP or is

someone maintain this and keep them in sync yes so the the IP repository if I make a pull request to this e IP that changes this text website will be remade okay cool so any any VIP that has been accepted into these statuses like after has been accepted as draft then it will show up on this website right okay yeah one of the ones I have is ready to push to UM abandoned and so I just wondering we're curious about that really possible to also add the the like the creation time in the last update on this page the creation time on the IP yeah

yeah when the acip was created and when he was the last updated and the reason I'm asking is because I've been on this website many time and you don't know when you look there directly you don't know if you said it has been replaced or supersede or whatever and it can be easily helped in term of schemings through the through the content yes so that that one of the reasons I think that's not there is because part of what part of what happens with any IP is we have we should Mart also mark that as something to put in and I think I have a way to integrate that or a way to make it so more of us can keep can update

that information in a timely more organized manner because the reason why stuff like that falls out is because the only people that can edit this text is the IP editors and then these authors so if no one last updated we could have a bot updated but oh but if we were to have someone updated it would have to be one of these people and the IP editors are already doing way more like they're over their load as more and I would I think that they're what they're required as far as like information in specialty

should be focused on other things then a lot of kind of keeping track of that information at the same time all that information is really important for people who are approaching the EIP and the repository so they can understand what's going on at a quick glance so that currently there isn't a good way to handle information like that I would say it's it's kind of like meta information about the EIP itself and there isn't an easy way to update it without relying on the authors who aren't doing it you so that's kind of what we'll get back to that as if there's any other comments or questions what people are going through

I'm happy to be interrupted and ideas about things to be put in I want to make sure you get on the list for people to talk about what about adding hard Forks into the upper side when it's all core networking interface information so having the meta so we I think the only men are apes are basically the hard works ones no yeah there's the standard there's the formal process for hard works with Alex Road

which is what's the old system the efi will be in here will be somewhere in here then they we have a whole bunch of hard Forks and EIP one to me that seems right like it seems like you know mehleb basically means upgrades you know and I think it's good that the process is listed there and if we actually change the process which I mean we have that it makes sense to also see the old process there I think this actually works my only you'll sort of quibble and I posted about this an awkward EV is like your efi list is still not merged James but I

think as soon as that's done it would show up in there right yeah and the reason it has been merged is I've gone back and forth with Alex a couple times about it and when it was first proposed and when I was first thinking about it and and Alex is thinking as well is that it really should be a registry like only a registry and let me see if I can pull that up nice lucky that came that's so fast so in in the EIP text for the eligibility conclusion when I went to provide it out I just wrote this list here yeah is like

a registry of the eligible II I piece and people who are authors are able to edit that when I was writing it I realized no one has any clue what any of that means or what the whole process is so I wrote it out here in this simple summary and abstract and such forth and someone who is just coming to the repository isn't going to know to go to efi to read the efi part and then go to IP one to get the other part yes so all of this all of this information should be i'm pointing but you can't see my fingers all of this information should be any IP one yeah I agree with that I think I still think we should probably merge this sooner than

later because right now we don't have like a hard for command list to point people to you and that's been like a problem like I don't know I talked with like the EEA for example and they're like oh what eats are being considered and I basically send them to your PR so I think I agree it's not perfect yeah I guess yeah I think if we merge this because everything GI q1 is probably like okay take weeks if not months that's been my experience trying to get like small pr's in it so if it's like a significant refactor I don't think like it's gonna be done in a matter of days or weeks so it's probably good to just have this list that we keep in the meantime yeah I agree and I think the

reason I saw I saw your Nolan law Oracle all Chordettes about this discussion URL being the the barrier so yes we should dis include included as far as like administration stuff we should do this soon talking about how do we improve the process process of the process it's how do we get this information into everyone so both let me share a different screen okay can you guys see this now yep yes

do we have the EPI one you know the intro you have a table of contents that posts that points to different parts of VIP one that has all the things and then in net are lists that go to registry IPS and those registry IPS only have like the so in the case of the if I list it has the lips of the FI so it doesn't have information about how the if I process works to read that you would read here any IP one somewhere and this this would get pretty long but I think that's okay because it's it's better to have everything in one place so stuff doesn't get fragmented conceptually yeah I agree we should be much more sort

of liberal with linking stuff in the IP one like every time there's like a new fork matter we should have it there the FI lists yeah yeah and this and then so the way we extend the functionality of the IP one is the authors of these different registries can be whatever they need to be to make them work because right now we're pretty limited something I'd like to add is this con like a another list so something extending this is by going back to Louisa we don't have a good way of seeing some of this import met

information and we don't have a good way of editing it as a community or a good process for it is to have like another registry IP which is just people who can edit a certain part like call I call them I'm thinking of them as a IP maintainer and their goal was just to maintain the repository and keep information up to date that isn't on the same level as needed of needing understanding like any IP editor would I was probably a lot of words so I'll get into like a more kind of concrete example of what I mean so going back to Istanbul I made this Google document that tracked like the more fine-grained

process that the EIP was going through as a way just to figure out where we were on each one so we could know which ones we need to work on because there was something like 35 that was that was that applied and then how do we go from 35 to the fork was just a big mystery did you fall screw that I can almost read that table that's okay if you don't accept if you don't really I didn't it's just stuff that would be nice to track specifically about any IP that an author doesn't need to because I wasn't the author of these any of these e IP ease so oh I guess I'll just make

it bigger yeah well let's do this so is there a PR was it formatted correctly has been reviewed and merged is there a reference client testing plan reviewed on the El Cortez called last call like all of those things an author doesn't need to do and an e IP editor doesn't need to track either but it's good to track and it could show the progress of the IP itself so how do we make it so this kind of information can be tracked and my solution to that is to have a list like a group of people like us and I assume many of us would join it of maintainer x' that have access to editing this information as part of any

IP so in kind of real life example oh that's kidding if I go to DMV to get my driver's license I have this form then I fill out that has all this information and if you think of an EIP kind of like this form and having questions that need to be answered and then the specification is like that that's all done by the authors but there's also this part of the form that is the office use only and they are the author doesn't edit this the people at the counter or whatever when they're doing stuff does so we could at some somewhere like at

the bottom of an EIP we could have a blank spot that is that anyone on the meta yeah at the anyone who's on the meta EIP for the maintainer x' could have access to edit without the permission of the authors and without needing permission from the editors so we could create a footer of things like last updated or where they are on the efi process or really anything at all and take the easiest way technically would be that just have a section of the footer be need to exist and that any changes to that footer could be done by anyone who is on the minute register v4 as a maintainer

Howard permissions be handled would be handled by the EIP bot so currently if I make a if I'm an author on the IP and I make a PR to the to the yeah repository the the EIP Auto merge bot checks that I'm only editing stuff within that I'm an author too and if it's true they'll just merge it it doesn't need any permission from an editor it doesn't need anything else because I'm an author I'm enlisted as an author on that page then I can edit that EIP it gets Auto murder so you could do a similar check we're in the bottom footer

any if someone submits a PR that edits the tracking footer a check are you a user in this registry of yep EW maintainer Zoar whatever we want think about calling them and if it's true then it can just accept it and no one else needs to make any other things that would also restrict the permissions that if maintainer would try and sort of maliciously merge or anything like that the bot would be able to stop it yeah you wouldn't be able to edit any other parts of the EIP that's super cool so you have this you have this little

part of the form here and as long as you're living in that form we could make it whatever we want it could be pretty I want to be able to make it kind of a updatable not like get us into a certain format but just have it a and my thing the first thing I would think would be nice it's like an EFI tracker or last call we can that stuff as soon as we have a system where we have a group of people that can actually make the edits them then we can kind of get rolling or update or change on whatever whatever ends of me at this point I think I'm rambling so I should probably pause and say where people were kind of confused yeah sometimes because I've made a

change to EIP 3 in my own Fork repository and I wanted to show you the direction I was pushed pushing but but yeah would now be a good time to look at something like that cuz this is exactly the kind of stuff I need to know cuz the author I contacted the author when I had his name sit here but anyway I contact him he says yeah that let's close that one down he was and he was happy that I was willing to help with that so um and and so I have a pull request ready to submit but I wanted to show you guys and make sure I'm doing the right pull request are doing the right process or whatever that's a little that's a little bit of a different compensation but I'm

happy to have it okay yeah if it's if it's later that that's great whatever but because the the problem you're running into is kind of part of one of the things I want to help solve right and again this is all just this is all ideas for us to this isn't a hey let's do this it's a I want us to think and talk about it and discuss right to decide so you updating the status you're not able to actually do that because you have to do the PR and then get someone to approve the change which in the case that a change is like substantial to the EIP itself then an editor should

approve the change if it isn't that he doesn't need to we're just adding in extra steps and don't dive in early yeah this one's here is going from draft abandoned so that's pretty that would be and that would be one that it would be good for an editor to do so that that would make sense so when you say editor to the PR me do the PR and get an editor to approve it yeah you an editor approving your PR so I do the PR first or sent it to him find an editor or something like that yeah you make the PR I've started on a PR it's just a draft and I'm sure it won't be the final one but I can show you in this so this one I have so this is my PR

I made for the EFI and once I made it it shows up and it gives like the poll to 378 you can't see it because I'm now sharing the wrong screen so this is my poll request that I made uh-huh maintain patch five to aetherium master perhaps like doing just a workshop of this is a good idea we should add we should add that as they gay a thing to do like yeah I just

showed a linked to the modification my fork modification of the EIP to this to the chat channel if you wanted to click on that and I can just show you I don't have a turn my telegram off so we're not Norton the zoom chat follow the zoom yeah I think we should add a okay like a workshop of anyone who wants to work on going through the process of just doing a pull request EIP that kind of cool do you have a particular conference in mind

with that no I just think of like a call would work an online call yeah basically what we're doing right what I'm talking about with Brent right now but open to more people and more explicitly saying hey let's dive in Jesse this is how you make a pull request to the IP repository that's my question so this is your e IP here yeah yeah it is a fork I do haven't merged it or you haven't made it a pull request oh yeah of course I'm just practicing on my own fork until I can get it and see I added that you can see I changed the the status is to abandon that's one change in made and then I

added that abandoned statement since it isn't Martin that's it's gonna do this pull request but but anyway I was just thinking along lines but make that set I'm probably sure I need to do it's different than that but so this is this is totally right yes I would put in like if we had a section I'm talking about of having yeah yeah as you said that ago yep they're like it would be perfect to have something like this where we could say oh yeah this is the substantiation for something that happened and just put it in the put it in the the footer for right even managing it that'd be perfect it wouldn't fit in the abstract but it should go somewhere that's it's good to have just better information in general

is good okay so going back oh yeah sorry we now go ahead no if you have a question go for it it's sort of like a moving forward thing so I'll just sort of throw it out and I'll see if this is constructive for conversation or if you'd rather move on to what you were saying there was some talk before about the difficulties of making changes to IP one itself I was wondering if it's useful to make a distinction between historically IPS and future he IPS as in

if you were going to change the IP template I guess for the future as an only free ip's after whatever would that make it easier would that expedite being able to make a change to the IP process versus only changing historical ones or maybe it's the exact opposite I just basically wanted to throw out the idea if there's if it's a useful distinction to make a distinction between a IPS that have already been made and at changing the IPS for the future the intersection of where it so on one hand it doesn't really matter at all because the github file is a github file is a github file

and it could be whatever it wants so you could you could reorder and do everything completely different where there are some limiting factors is the bot they the Jekyll program or whatever that creates the website is looking for certain things and expects a certain format and if it doesn't get that it breaks yeah so any so so really more or what you're saying is any changes that break that format we need to make along with updating the web to be able to handle the new format I actually I I mean that's great also I hadn't meant

that actually from a technical standpoint I meant it more from I don't I feel reluctant to use the word political but just in terms of getting consensus for acceptance so I think for that part it's kind of hard by design like I think it should be hard and especially going forward because what you're saying if you're changing you know the way it works for future eats you're kind of changing what's like the rough consensus on the theory I'm about you know how we actually make changes which is a pretty big deal so I think you know it's okay that this is like not the quickest process because the last thing you want is for this to change and then people to feel like you know they didn't have a

say in it and the things are happening behind closed doors so I think we should really try and make everything explicit and give like time for people to comment and give feedback um yeah so I don't think that's like particularly a bad thing one thing I've been thinking about this you know it seems like the process for quarry IPs and other AI pieces is like very different and how we make that more explicit like we already have kind of the efi you know process and we probably don't want the efi process for non-core a IPS and and if that's the case it's like we probably need just a better or a clearer separation between quarry IPS and non-core where we

probably leave the process for non quarry IPS unchanged you yes and going something else I remember you saying earlier Tim was like the the EIP process as far as the chords and coming to decisions and then making them actually works pretty well what is lacking is the EIP repository it lacks significantly so it doesn't follow very well the decisions that are made and when they're made or what the consensus sorry my Internet's terrible I kind of

missed the last bit that you said that the like the way the court would the wake the all court have calls or go through any IP works well what is what does what is missing is the EIP repository doesn't really follow it very well doesn't follow the yes okay yeah that I agree yeah and and and I like your idea around like yeah this sort of office use only part like that I 100% support I think and so I think yeah those are like two different danger I think the process tracking we we probably should try to get done as quickly as possible because it's not really doing much except just providing

more visibility but this first bit like you know slice two and three on your proposal like that's seems like a much bigger undertaking that's all I wanted to highlight I just want to react on the unrecorded decision-making while I completely agree its overhaul works pretty well I did put at least two case of where the there was a like of sort of well-defined process and because of it he created some you know like a floating time where we didn't really know what was going on and how to push or not push the case forward the first one was thinking is the one from the the one that relates to Blake

to be yeah Blake to me that's gonna say Blake to be I mean I'm going to say bluntly I feel it was not in the Polly and and and the reason is because the people who were pushing it sort of like whether their uncle and they we wouldn't eat the court have continued pushing it because there was no one to say to reject it but the same time there was no one there to defend it and he went on and on and on till the time we realized that the the Specht were actually not fully defined and what this says and what the spec we're doing was slightly different and that I think should be addressed before so that was the first example and I have another

example but I don't find it out and I'm just wanted to say this way there is a sort of VI people are also outside of the court of course here for various reason because it involved like advanced math where you involve skill set that mind recording may not have and those one should have a processor that needs to be a better discuss and and and and and define in if if I mean I figure I will maybe discuss it in more specific cases with visually but but I do have a few example there and that would be good examples of stuff that would be great to

fit into a section in the IP wand everything we could have linked in the table of contents but some some help I would really look forward to your help on that and clarifying some of those fully and then getting some language that that the court has to agree with because I can say on the other side of the blade to be having helped get that through and I'm not blaming and then blaming the blade to be he worked I mean the probably break to be that I feel if he was have been bitter dislike only one of the I think he's it's out of the scope of today but I have like a discussion for the what people what the the champion of the IP should be doing

for the time out of scope but in the pace of like to be yes I wonder I think there was something wrong here in the sorry Jeff well I think yeah one thing I just want to add to your currently with I how do you % agree with like eeap's that are very technical and and and the problem with the process right now is they get treated very differently so like take specific examples you look at like eat 1962 which is being proposed now you know there's a lot of concern by developers it's like you know we might not be able to evaluate it properly because it's kind of advanced crypto and it seems like there's I would say there's like general consensus but there's like some consensus around okay if you have two different

implementations and they kind of give out the same things that's probably good enough and not it would be nice it's not here we're gonna get it whereas if you look at Prague pal right because it had this added element of like you know political contentiousness it's like you won't even get discussed unless there's an audit even though you know it had a working test net and whatnot and it felt like it kind of had a higher technical burden because of its like political implications and and and a lot of people on the corners call you know felt like the auditor is just kind of a distraction to push the can down the road and so yeah III agree there's probably a lot of value in trying to get

you know what yeah what's like the the rigor we demand for each and and and you know like recently also when Rich Dudley came on the call he wasn't sure for 1559 right like what is the sort of rigor that we should demand for a change like that which is not maybe as technical but has like wide-ranging economic implications and I don't think we I don't think there's an easy answer to that question but I think having some answer is probably better than our current or current status quo I definitely agree with this and the only example you took where exactly on spot and oh and weirdly enough they actually

ordered requiring my opening different answers they are yeah yeah yeah yeah and we need but we need to find what's like the right level of you know like do we so to put it bluntly right do we expect any sort of major eat like that to pull in you know ten to a hundred thousand dollars for an audit right whether it's a technical audit and economic on it and if so you know we should make that clear and and you know the downside is it obviously discouraged is anybody who can't afford or can't raise those funds to propose like such an EP there is something rated I think there is other ways to to make it it also in my opinion

depend on the on the sophistication and the and they on the other eye in persistence one that can be implemented by the client like when when Eva can be defined and or made by the client like beg to be probably doesn't require or not it's that long because it's if it's broken then it's I mean the client knows what to do it's there is their job you seen some extent and I said job I mean like it's Airy they know how to react to that for IP like Prague pal for you free right there if something's wrong for whatever reason it happens to be there either an attack vector somewhere and and independently of the particular aspect then what should they do and that is the sort of a process we need to put in place to to to

allow for either to act like to stay to have a clear path to acceptation and also a fast path to to withdraw because I think that is I most likely the biggest burden for me for many VIP browser I think the fast no is better than languish yes so maybe yeah I agree that make sense I also agree if there was some sort of expectations I mean it's a it's a healthy relationship with people like if there is expectations at the time things go way better versus doing stuff and then figuring out oh I was wrong about that when the entire time both people wanted to do what was right they were just

doing what they knew then it just keeps going so it's so it sounds like we're on agreement that to see if I can summarize summarizes here but there are certain things that it would be good to articulate around expectations for people who are doing a certain complexity of VIP okay let's say yes yeah and then how you set that bar is an exercise for the reader yeah so articulating it recording it similar and that I think is going to

be one of the longer sounds like a long process a long thing to get right it probably will in any will also be needs to be an adaptive in upper case scenario but he should have at least sort of guidelines of expectation in terms of independent limitation independent review which would set the bar pretty high enough for or endure the rest of the edge cases to buy on the cool yep so it kind of sounds like a subgroup forming maybe that's something you would be interested in and

being Louie is kind of figuring out some of the language around that I'm not sure I know how to do it but if I if anyone wants to take the lead I would be happy to join you discuss I'm just not sure how you would want it to be I mean I'm just thinking of dividing into teams and coming up ideas for solutions with it's just one part of the agenda this is a clear place we could create a team that could be like I need to think about it because but let me think about it I'll get back to you offline yeah yeah and I would be interested in joining that team as well

if there was a team for freedom for figuring that part out sure be very happy to I need to think in terms of schedule with my due dates taking something a bit thanks yeah yeah so as far as stuff that I was gonna present today it's really kind of those three things reorganizing yeah yeah I wanted to being the canonical place for everything informational pushing all of the permission things that need to be edited on two different registry IPS another one that would be nice would be doing a

registry for e IP numbers so we have analogical numbering system I think that kind of system is pretty extensive extendable and also approachable for people doing the system adding adding in like starting this idea of what is it that a IPA editors don't need to do that a group of us could do and manage which is kind of around this idea of any IP process tracking flavor which is like the Foreign Office use only par and and if that's the right way to go or if that's kind of something we agree on how

do we put how do we develop that into the EIP bot to make it work nicholae sounds great good more feedback on the idea or ways that it could be Thank You Kuja which is a great idea in the text I think so I agree yet this all looks good one thing maybe like a fourth idea but that we should start discussing is how do we add more AIP editors and I know this has

been like brought up again and kind of dropped a bunch of times but it feels like something where you know we have this huge backlogs of VIPs and it you know and it's you know the people we have are kind of overworked to do that at the same time there's a pretty high bar that you need for to give access to those people so it's not an easy question either but like yeah what's like a process we can have to add a IP editors that you know but that makes sure that the people who end up being there don't like abuse that privilege how are the current AIP editors what made them a DAT editors they were all

basically working at the EF and like I don't know 2015 ish so like when when aetherium started and I think at that point the project was small enough that it was easy to get a set of editors but it hasn't really grown since the people we're eating the IPO are the same people were there in 2015 not exactly but like yes more or less or like all people you know like Epson Alex B Nick Johnson from ENS so they're all kind of to my knowledge like maybe there's some exceptions here but like most of the editors are just like very long-standing if you're in community members um which should be fair I don't

think it's a bad criteria right like I think you know it's probably something you only want to have people who've been part of it community for a long time but we have it like added like a second or a third wave of editors and yeah looking at that list right like people like vitalik obviously don't have time to to do this right it's you know not saying he should be removed per se but like he just doesn't contribute as an editor which makes sense um and so it's like yeah how can we not a growth list none of those people it seems to have the time to do it to be honest yeah exactly right and to be fair some of

them do and and it's great that they do but like yeah we should find a way to help them and at the same time we should still keep you know a very very high bar for people to be added to that list and how you make that explicit this is hard just a brainstorming idea for how to do that kind of stuff at Canon ours are we algorithm we have what's called a peer ranking expert system where peers can rank each other and so that gives you a quantitative measure of their rank in the community and that could possibly we could set something like that up where everyone could vote people and then the peers rank each other and then you get a quantitative score and if you

meet a certain bar then you can become an editor just an idea I mean so much kind of those are sort of a mechanism because ranking people for section for not technical from thing that are sort of abstract is like something I'm not very comfortable with but I wonder if the EF would have like some sort of like some funding to pay for like this more tests like having I'm sure we could find people if they were meaning they were paid for like even not a lot of money but just something to contribute for their their effort and I think we'd probably find that other people unpaid

if we had a clear list of criteria of what what they want right I'm a bit cautious of adding like a tool or like a dependency in this process I feel like it has to be had a half you know explicit criteria half rough consensus probably from the current VIP editors but yeah I think we probably definitely need more people so I when I was talking with Alex earlier one of the IP editors like he they spend some time trying to find more by any other ones I previously like did it at other times and one of his feedbacks was finding people that

then really are active I kind of say it another way what we don't want to have happen is create a system that finds the best dpip editor but then never shows up by being qualified and technically wanting to do it and also doing it are three sides of a Venn diagram that all yeah yeah and I think you know frankly like the only people can probably do this without getting paid more or like people who work on a theorem full-time so either you know they work for like consensus or the EF or someplace like that or or another company where it's like their job gets them to work on it here in full-time and this is just part

of like the open source work they do and then the challenge is also how do you so puja I know like you mentioned like an X I in the comment which probably is technically qualified enough and whatnot but then it's like is it the best use of that person's time right like what's the Venn diagram of like the person could be writing code to contribute the etherium or approving eeap's and other people who are just like technical technical enough to do the each part and it's maybe not like that big of an opportunity cost for them to actually be doing this work guys I need to leave you thank you very much for the call I keep I would touch keep in touch with the rest of your sign and

I will listen to the remaining of the call after thank you very much right thank you sir coming on yep two different conversation and one is what is the bar for becoming any IP editor the other one being how do we get people def Allah and start working on it what oh sorry just one other thing I I've actually talked about this internally with people at consensus to get their thoughts and one question that people had is you know what's the commitment right like if they're an EIP editor what are they actually like timewise and responsibility wise you know what are they agreeing to do and I

think if we could say something like that you know it's like I don't know five hours a week or whatever ten hours a week and and these are the things you actually have to do that might help find fine people yes the other the other kind of interesting thing is you don't technically anything that an EIP editor does you can do without being an EIP editor most as far as responding to PRS making comments saying hey you need to do this okay this is good to go I think so we're just hitting the merge button

so I think there's kind of parallel things that can happen if we can take some of the stuff and put it into this things that that maintainer x' can do or like the office use only form things that need to be tracked there can be done by them so we're offloading what we can from the IP editors to find what the IP editors do then define by what the bar is for any IP editor this is sounding like another group is forming more like a group idea around defining this then through a system more people participating in lists

uh in like the prostrating Peter footer or being a maintainer you can see someone's being active then it's pretty easy to see oh yeah this person if he was an editor great uh-uh I'm not saying that exactly right like how do we get people to start participating I instead of saying hey let's find people and then get them to participate just get more people participating and then turn them into editors that makes sense yeah III think that's probably just doing a better job you know like the CIP editor responsibility is kind of buried within the IP one so it's like how do we find

it like me and the cat herders can probably help with this and I know I think William and Brent if I recall correctly had done a bit of this was like yeah how do we just make it clear what people should be doing and and can do and just yeah market that only Brent I feel bad taking credit oh okay sorry my bad yeah and there is some disagreement already among the IP editors about what that is themselves so that is kind of another thing to work through hi there's something someone is making

you known in the chat oh sorry it was just a joke I can't see it why for some reason I can't see it a chat anymore I just said it was great that the EIP editors are also disagreeing within them amongst himself oh yeah on warning more editors is one of the things discussed in last call like so maybe we can reach out to frequent EIP submitters like Alexi to check they would be interested Alexi to me would be one of those individuals that needs to not be an EIP editor it could be but as far as time goes and this is just such a hard thing because

the bar high means you're a high contributing member there's an old American joke about jury duty just I since I don't think this is all in American crowd I'll explain it in about 10 seconds jury duty is completely of like people are randomly picked to be jurors in court cases in America so there's an old famous line that anybody's smart enough to serve jury duty is smart enough to get out of a I mean I sort of feel like this is a similar kind of paradox anyone good enough to be any IP editor is necessarily going to have demands on their time it's just trying to figure out exactly where to find a good equilibrium in that chaos okay well so we're like at three I resist this is an

hour right right so we're at we're at like three minutes left I think submarine is it anyone have opposing thoughts to the having a processed tracker with some maintained errs that have the ability to edit it and read for me I people and like that kind of stuff any other feedback for concern question is what now like what can we do now like is there anything actionable

right now of actionable is if we think it's a good idea then we figure out how to get the bot to do it in just the auto thought of mod bot to be create a space that does this who does that like who controls the bot no one control Levada I mean it's someone should have permissions encoded No yeah yeah yeah so I see what you're saying the permissions are the IP editors so and I Hudson saying that kotor from that was interested in

participating in this from the f that like a web developer so would be about getting in touch with someone having them excuse me having done mickey make a PR to modify the bot and getting that merged like that's that's the that's what we're looking at right now yep and then that the the web site would need to be able to render it so two parts autumn up the autumn merge bought would need to be able to need to

support it and then the Jekyll will builder would need to be able to render it and deploy it and other than that you're saying there's no there's no sort of consensus issue in the way like Oh basically all you need to do is get in touch with this person who's willing to program the bot they programmed the bot and then that's it yeah and the consensus part is we would bring it up on hanno on all quartets call and figure out how some of the other things fit in with that wait does that need to happen first so I mean like as in what what's what's the next step the next step is all core devs or its

programming the bot finding someone to program the bot I misunderstood I thought you said you had someone oh there is someone that Hudson and but I don't know who he don't remember who he is and I don't know what level he's involved but I remember him saying there was a web developer that was interested in participating so that person could do it it's figuring out is it possible through the system that I described technically and then if it's possible kind of get it done at the same time make sure everyone's ok with it so we're not just deciding it right now okay so I mean

I so basically what we need to do now or I've get I get it sounds like this is mainly things that you yourself are doing James correct me if I'm wrong but we need to find someone who's good bike who can handle the the code for the bot to see if this is even realistic and you want to simultaneously try and propose to the core devs the various like change ideas going on now yeah cool I would bet the bot could pretty much do anything you want as long as you clearly spec it out it's that detailed suspect that I think would be a hard part yeah we'll have to talk to the editor

about that what someone who's helping as far as redoing VIP one in this kind of format that's just a matter of making the PRS and then having people talk about it enough it will take a long time but it makes sense and I think I mean that's it for me are we scheduling another another meeting now oh yeah schedule another meeting should we do one week or two weeks I like it consistent time every two weeks or something like that yeah I think two

weeks is easier than one week okay two weeks from today then sounds good to me same time same place yeah awesome all right so yeah I guess the I guess that's that done and is there any other any other items you for me alright so yeah I guess that's out of them hey that's it all right fun great one

AB great to everybody yeah you thanks everyone thank you all you you you you you you you

you you you you you