EB36 – CoinSummit Panel: The ever changing landscape of Bitcoin mining

Transcript

[Music] welcome to epicenter Bitcoin the show which talks about the Technologies projects and startups driving decentralization and the global cryptocurrency Revolution my name is Sebastian K and I'm Brian faan crane on July 10th and 11th we were in London for the coin Summit conference this two-day event gathered approximately 250 investors entrepreneurs and developers to discuss some of the most important issues facing the Bitcoin and cryp the currency ecosystem today's panel discussion is called the everchanging landscape of Bitcoin mining where moderator jez San

is joined by some of the most prominent figures in the mining industry Mark AAS of bit Fury Dave Carlson of MGA big Power teimo Hanka of coin Tera and Navid shawani of panova the discussion revolves around several key topics notably everyone seems to agree the mining industry should move away from the term mining and start calling it transaction processing and you'll hear the reasons why they also discussed the rapid evolution of Asic processors in the last year the importance of improving the overall power efficiency of the network and where Asic production seems to be heading they also talk about a highly debated subject which is the shift from home mining to centralized data centers and the panel ends with predictions on the total hashing power of the network at the end of this year [Music]

yeah yeah so so uh hello again everyone um we have a much bigger panel now so uh I'm joined by some of the uh most successful and um hardworking people in the uh Bitcoin mining world and we've um we we've come up with a with a few um interesting questions but let start with oh we're not going to go around Robin we're going to we're going to be selective what is mining and why is it important for the Bitcoin ecosystem anyone want to take a stab at that one I feel pretty strongly about that one I you guys can hear me okay uh transaction

processing is that's mining mining is basically just the the processing of transactions into the blockchain what could be more Central to bitcoin everybody who has little bit of Bitcoin here a startup business intends to invest they depend on a minor somewhere in the world to add these transactions to the blockchain so I see it as the epicenter of this happening that is Bitcoin um and that's that's what caused me to dive into to Bitcoin mining two years ago yeah mining is certainly the key invention of Bitcoin that allows to have to come to a consensus in a distributed computer network

that's the key invention but well by the way by the term mining we mean at least two things one is the related to the blockchain technology which is the process of uh creating a new block and by doing that clearing transactions that have appeared in the time window since the previous block and uh in terms of the currency it also means the process of creating new currency and Bitcoin so beautifully links the two things together and creates the incentive to actually build the mining Network so miners get revenue from two sources they get the block reward for creating new blocks and they also get a transaction fee so um so miners are compensated um for their computing

power say I think if if we could stop using the word Mining and start calling it transaction processing yeah mining is definitely transaction so I think it really would help the investors it would help the users and it will help The Regulators what we doing because gives a very different kind of a uh a mental image as opposed to what we do I mean we are not mining we are trying to uh process transactions and add legitimate blocks to the blockchain right so that would be my call to uh to the folks would be that let's see if we can invent a better terminology for what we do so in in the past mining was uh done using uh software running on CPUs and eventually that was overtaken by running

the software on on graphics cards and and in the last year or so it's now being overtaken with ASX does anyone want to give a brief history of the Asic um technology maybe I can take a shot at it considering that I have a little bit of a background in A6 I think U A6 started somewhere in last March time frame where people started designing this uh uh in 55 nanometer or 40 n by 55 nanometer these are the different technology terms that we use in semiconductor business to explain how advanced the process technology is and so every few years you know technology advances so so in last year in the beginning of the year people started uh uh developing A6 in 55 nanometer in a

semiconductor business it takes about 2 and a half years to go to the next technology node in Bitcoin world we went from 40 55 to 40 to 28 nanometers in less than I I would say N9 n months or I think some even did 130 110 Nom in between yes yeah so so that is true so so Point really is that I think the advance of technology in Bitcoin is excuse me much faster than in the semiconductor business so today we are at 28 going to 20 and 16 and the reason for the transition from CPUs to gpus to as6 was to become more efficient andow yeah so if you use a CPU for example you're using probably 3% or 2 and a

half% of the Silicon area for doing what you are doing when you're doing a Asic 100% of the area is being used for doing so so uh dedicated Asic is you know much much more efficient in doing so yeah and I think to add to that I think the result of that is is actually that the network has become much more secure as the result of using as6 just to give you a sense already the beginning of this year some computations showed that kind of the combined hashing power on the Bitcoin network was the equivalent of the top 500 super computers in a world combined and that is only result of having those very efficient chips focusing on that it creates stability security for the network over and the competitive nature of the uh of the mining Network encourages people to keep adding this is this this is all brought

on by the the block reward this block reward subsidizes the growth of the network and it's designed inherently to promote extremely fast growth because the faster the network gets very large the faster it's fully secured so one of the controversial uh Topics in the altcoin world is um trying to design proof of work algorithms that are Asic proof do you think that's a good idea in general I don't think that's a good idea because um if we uh well remember the time when uh mining happened mainly on gpus and one problem that we saw at that time was that malware could take

over people's computers and for example botn Nets were controlling a huge amount of mining power hash power and that was certainly not good as has helped that and another reason of course is um to have a secure network you you're afraid that there's some entity that could have a technology advantage and once we have A6 on the um smallest process not available we are pretty sure that no entity can gain such an advantage I think if you do sorry if you do a resistant as they call it uh literally uh you're moving it off of these specialized Asic processors onto

Nvidia or AMD or Intel processor right so essentially you are still you know Hostage to something except that now the revenue has moved away from the Bitcoin ecosystem into the semiconductor ecosystem and that is essentially that has happened and secondly I think the network will be less secure because you have to use lot more of those processors which are more cap expensive in order to do what we are doing so I mean we can do with one Asic which I think would take something like 8900 CPUs to do so I mean so I think the way what the way we are doing it is we are making the network secure at a much lower cost than tremendously less wasteful power and there's a focus on that I mean we want

to be more and more power efficient so that's a that's a good segue so um with Bitcoin mining um being dominated by the cost of power and the price of Bitcoin what is the trend what what is happening to improve that situation yeah just to add to that I think this is the interesting thing right we're seeing this buildup as Dave was saying as well that the network is growing over and overall and as the capacity grows so does the kind of the cost of mining starts to shift not just from investing in um in the servers and the chips but actually running um these large kind of this large infrastructure and the cost that comes with it I think kind of definitely a bit forar one of the things that we're really kind of focus on is

two things how can we actually kind of contribute to kind of generating our own kind of electricity over time kind of continuing to drive the cost down of that and secondly how do we make sure that we actually do something kind of use or recycle the energy we're using so kind of um um as we start looking at immersion cooling how can we recycle some of the energy and even thinking more creatively like if are there any uses um in people's home where they might use heating anyway kind of can we come up with creative products there that actually helps both the distributed nature of of the Bitcoin Network as well as kind of make something useful as from the side product that we're creating with with the kind of processing not mining I agree with you so actually I would say that

finally uh Bitcoin A6 are attracting the right kind of people into the industry which is physics and semiconductor Specialists who are saying wow we have all these ideas that we wanted to try in the microprocessors but they never worked because the microprocessor are too complicated all those wave pip so there are many many techniques in which you can cut down power by a order of 10x but those ideas never worked in microprocessor and other complex chips but they are perfect for A6 that's what we are doing today why because these as6 are very simple pipeline structures that we can apply a lot of these physics oriented ideas I think in the next two years we are going to see a dramatic Improvement in these as6 not driven by

the folks that we have building A6 today but these are the physics and semiconductor professionals who so far we were not able to attract but now we are attracted and I I think in the next uh a year or so we will see dramatic Improvement in power and capex I actually think that by the end of next year we should see 0.1 watt per gigahash kind of machines out there by the end of next year yes I I I agree with that I think but I think that that's where the the the the leveling starts to be to to be seen in the network growth I think the network growth can can simply not be sustained in the in this vertical you know Singularity Style chart that we see right now in in network growth but that's okay I think

A6 chips allow us to scale the network out and secure it effectively um and efficiently and to build on that like you if we know we're in this buildup kind of pH right and there's going to be a point of kind of equilibrium where actually this is where the real competition between kind of us developing on the as6 side starts to happen right the cost curve uh uh is not going to be uh the same for everyone um um and those that are able to come up with the best chips will be able to basically continue to add capacity to network um uh in a way that's still profitable While others that are unable to do that not just on the chip level but increasingly also the data center operations start to become very important um is going to make a big

difference um um and there's going to be a big shift I think between companies that are able to keep at the Leading Edge um and those that are kind of falling behind and the good thing about Bitcoin as6 is that they allow you to use your Crea ity to innovate and to differentiate as well as the process node so um what kind of things are happening in that area and don't want to so I think uh uh although we use the term Asic I we use that to mean that the Innovation is happening at the Asic level at the server level and at the data center level right so when we are building our machines we build at the data center level when you are building at the data center level you are looking

at what happens in an aisle for example when the aisle is cooled down there's a thermal gradient from the start of the AIS to the end of the aisle there's a thermal gradient from the bottom of the aisle to the top of the aisle so if you apply uniformly the same machine across the aisle you have a different thermal profile as opposed to different machines which can be tuned to their location where are there in the aisle so this is I'm just explaining about the several things we're looking at is that we can tune the machine to its location in the aisle and then reduce the power and optimize the performance right so what I want to say is that as we are going forward we have now operated 10,000 machines 50,000 machines now we have to figure out how to uh run 100,000 200

300,000 machines we have to go to virtualize machines so I think virtualization software will take very important we should be able to run entire mine or transaction processing center from a laptop be able to change the temperature performance of a single ASC or a core in a single ASC of aisle to any particular server in the aisle so I think software will also become a very important aspect so so Hardware will uh start evolving in the data center style and software will start in the virtualized direction we have that now the heat optimization we use Post-it notes on the racks to Mark keep track of the temperature always always the low cost the equival what I think is part of the so so I spent a lot of my career in the the telecoms industry right and and

you have these big Network operating centers where you can monitor all things in the infrastructure and I think this is the the phase that we're now entering with mining as well where this becomes a very kind of centralized thing with a lot of flexibility the ability to switch things on and off to move from one pool to the other um um and kind of of create that kind of flexibility and kind of insurance of operational effici so in the past um Bitcoin mining Hardware has been um available for sale to home miners because it's been packaged in you know in computer sized um boxes U but there seems to be a Trend towards building for the data center what happens to the home Miner in that situation I think it's a win for the home Miner because previously home Miner had to buy a machine and then which only

comes in certain sizes then they have to operate it and it depends on the electricity charge that in this area right now if you go to a data center uh concept and do Cloud Bing Cloud hashing concept they have now ability to operate their piece of the hardware because it's a fractional sale at a very low cost and so I think I I don't think it discourages home Miner I think it fractionalization of these data centers will allow just like why how Amazon web services has not discouraged people from working on data centers it has encouraged hundreds of thousands of businesses I think this Cloud mining Cloud hashing kind of concept which will allow people to have Cloud hashing at a very low cost should encourage people to invest whatever amount of money they

have into the transaction processing at the moment I think the economy of scare just uh tends to favor data center installations at the moment because they are more cost effective but uh so there's there's certainly ways despite this fact to keep the decentralization up um because uh it's uh for example possible um to have a uh uh to keep the ownership of the chip by cryptographic means in the hands of a home Miner and um have the chip only accept to work on problems that are actually signed by the Home Miner for example in this way you can have your chip hosted by somebody else and still have full control over U

what it's hashing on that is certainly a a way to combine the concept of a centralized Data Center and decentralized ownership so so kind of to add to that I think the kind of there's been a move from great getting the best hardware to officially kind of basically getting not only the best hardware but getting the best data center location getting the best electricity contract um um and I think that's that's a progression that's increasingly hard for kind of a home minor to do right if you're a rational home minor so there are two things like it is indeed kind of a progression towards manage services contracts for large miners cloud cloud hatching unfortunately lot of the cloud hatching contracts nowadays aren't really economically feasible if you can of to take the calculations on it the

other thing is like and Dave and I were talking about is like there's a there's an element of perhaps nonrational miners a lot of people would love to kind of be involved and add to the network right so I expect and something that we're thinking about can we come up with consumer oriented products in the future that kind of may not necessarily have a great return on it but be great for people to feel that are contributing to the overall Network yeah there's there's definitely uh home miners are definitely interested in in being part of the network more than getting a return on their investment we're finding that uh a step up from the home Miner is the small business entrepreneur who wants to get into mining so part of our Focus focus on on empowering other miners to start up out there is to um is to identify

these these small startups that actually have favorable economics they may not have the power prices that I pay uh but they have maybe uh local subsidy from their local municipality no one has the power price that you pay but but there are economics out there that actually uh justify mining where I didn't expect to find them so we're we're seeing that that There's an opportunity for granted it's not home mining but it's sort of the next level above it's the small business startup mine that that has uh the ability to to make the numbers work so this year there's been a lot of innovation and creativity and and variation among the different Asic from different um

technology companies but there's an inevitable harmonization as The Innovation and the tricks that can be done to improve performance um become the same and then um the process knows there's a limit to where we can go on that so what's going to happen in the future I think in two generations uh 9 nanometer Beyond I think we should be on moods law so I think till that time because of the very nature of the sh 256 we should be able to apply other techniques that were not found useful uh in the normal microprocessor and the chip design so so we have maybe two generations until we hit the moods law

but I think those specialized uh design tricks will be useful in the next two generations I think the interesting thing as well if you would actually do a comparison of of of as6 today there's actually a wide variety of performance man so bitf I think we're very proud that kind of our 55 nanometers is actually at performance doing a lot better than some of our competitors at 28 right and and lot of that has to do with kind of having a bespoke approach to to some of these things and while a lot of others are using kind of preconfigured components um and I think there was a lot a lot still to do as a way of kind of driving overall performance I think we'll we'll definitely have a long long range still where we'll see performance Improvement

that go beyond kind of mors law that people know from kind of general gpus and there'll be a little you see that happening over next three generations or you see that over so what I was saying is that I I see that happening but I think inevitably in two generations you'll get into the same situation that micro processor business and others eventually all the tricks play out and then everybody learns all the tricks and then basically you come on to the moods law and then you go process no to process right now there's been a very low take up in the smaller geometry processes and K&C minor is the first one to use 20 nanometer and no one else has announced that yet and and Beyond um the smaller geometries are more expensive and so there are different tradeoffs it comes down to the financial

incen so Bitcoin prices shoot up to 2,000 you're going to see people going after smaller nodes it's going to accelerate that that that going after those tricks that not being stoping so actually from our point of view we are already working on a smaller node because we believe that there has to be our customers are buying equipment from us and investing in us because not because we have a machine today because we have a road map so we have shared a road map with them on which there is a 16 nanometer machine and there is a 9 nanometer machine so so we have to have constantly have FS available and on our road map to invest in that so it's like any other Semiconductor Company that has to have that kind of a capex there are two ways to achieve low power I mean there's the

there's the go jump to the next node um which is expensive but quick or there's the spend more time optimizing the the the full custom and in the end like anyone who's going to make an investment decision to kind of invest in mining right kind of they're not they're going to look at the total cost of ownership right they're not just going to look at what the price X Y so they're going to look at what is actually my price per gigahash uh dollar per gigahash and whatever and and what I'm going to pay in electricity over a certain period of time right so it's trying to optimize across those M that's a great that's a great prompt so what is the relative Capital cost of buying the hardware versus the operating cost of running it for say a year what what's the what's the balance let me give you examples

today I think it will cost you around $2 million to buy one p hash okay and it will cost you around 1 point I promise you we can buy it cheaper from this guy over here sure sure today manufacture yourself yeah no no I'm just buying so I'll talk about Manufacturing in a moment so let's say it's $2 million let's call a number between $1.5 to $2 million it I think it covers the range right I think I'm covering his range now so $1.5 to $2 million to buy something and I think it will cost you approximately 8 to $12 million to run it for a year these are the two numbers so you're talking approximately 5050 or thereabouts for a little bit more to than to run okay and Dave are you are you seeing the same thing I think the way the way I've been looking at it

recently I guess it's easier to talk about right now because it's in the Forefront of my mind is is over the next two years there's going to be 2.6 million Bitcoin produced that at current prices that's almost $2 billion doar uh Market opportunity to go after so the question is is how how much is it cost to invest to capture a large market share of that $2 billion opportunity it's far less than $2 billion it's you know you could invest $100 million and capture a significant share of that 2 billion so that's kind of how I've been looking at it so the the business model of the mining industry has been undergoing massive change lately and customers are

no longer happy doing pre-orders um aset companies are no longer happy doing pre-orders because customers Arbitrage the price of Bitcoin versus their pre-order and cancel and so on so what's going to happen to the business model of mining yeah I think going of those days where you could use the Preorder to fund your Asic development so I think which which means that the people who will be left standing are the ones who have either already created those funds from their previous mining operations to invest or they have ability to raise funds uh to invest so because uh if you cannot raise the money through the customers the only way you have is these two things I the irony with that is that the home money that complains about

decentralization is actually contributing to the centralization exactly by not ordering Hardware that's right in general I think the pre-order days are gone right but I also think that a lot depends on the Bitcoin economy and especially on the Bitcoin price in general I think the whole Market can turn quite quickly if we see another price Rise um because um that will also make home miners more competitive again and um home miners can react more quickly to this in data center deployment there's a lot of inertia if you want to react to a increase in bitcoin price by deploying more Hardware you can not do it instantly because we're talking about

multiwatt installations and they used to take several months at least well yeah so I think this is one of the competing things going in the future as well I think uh you'll see some announcement of us shortly of you of of new Dy centers that we opening and and I think um increasingly it's not just um competing on designing the A6 but also how quickly can you add capacity and I think that's going to be an increasing um differentiator um again between Miners and and operators helping them and the biggest deal I mean the last year um mining AET companies effectively crowdfunded their um costs which are in the millions of nres by pre-orders or or large customers and that's gone so now I

think we organically grew we did some initial retail sales but then we organically grew everything else to this point but but now we're reaching this point where we're recognizing that if we're going to scale along with the network and try to hold on to our market share we have to find a way to get out to Market quicker and our way of doing that is to decentralize our industrial mining by teaching others how to do it and then remove the uncertainty of the pre-ordered Problem by sending them the hardware with with no upfront costs so yeah very Noble that franchise approach very inel yeah and I think like bit Fury has always taken the choice to not do that kind of prefunding approach and I think um um it's deliberate I think a lot of companies that have gone that

route have actually ended up with sign significant problems it's very dangerous uh it is very dangerous and it's actually bad for the reputation of of Bitcoin overall the interesting thing is it does indeed kind of lead to again kind of an opportunity for separation in the sense that the the amounts that need to be pre- financed to kind of roll out ever bigger volumes are going to going to grow right so I think uh um it's it's incredibly important for specifically those in the Asic production to be very well funded and uh it's not always easy for everyone to to get that now that the stakes are so high um does that mean there are no new Asic entrance because the only ones that are around now are the ones that either had a previous generation and raised some money or Min some Bitcoins or that are VC funded of

which there's very few of those yeah I I think there is a fairly big barrier to entry now yes yeah there's a number of barriers to entry there's uh certainly a lot of uh Capital required and uh uh simply creating the IP also takes a while and uh the IP is actually the the least expensive part of creating an AIC isn't it right but it it takes time to develop it and to catch up with the uh existing manufacturers is a barrier to entry I think the other thing is the customer acquisition I think previously with a crowdfunding model you can open a website and sell to thousands of

customers that's one thing now the customers are more larger customers uh I think one of the deals we announced recently at 3 4 days ago that somebody um uh one of our customers have bought a nine pah hat system from us now developing these relationships is a very expensive Venture right so for somebody to have just Capital 2 as6 is not good enough anymore is to have these relationship with uh different customers which takes a long time which also very expensive will buy these multiple P hat systems from you and you have to have these customers why because if you're spending 5 7 $8 million on Asic uh whole de server development you cannot have you know people buying you half a p hash two P hash know that it won't amortise your cost so that's I think customer

acquisition cost is also very expensive so let's do one more question before we open it up to the floor uh I want to hear a number from each of you today we're on about 140 petahash on the Bitcoin mining Network what's your prediction for the last day of this year no no 140 was the start at the panel let's ask them how much more it has been since started the Pand since we started this conversation okay so let's let's start okay Teo what's your what's your prediction for end of the year last day of the year so I have no better guess than than to um extrapolate the current growth of network which is 1% daily and

that will put at 600 n what do you think I think it's between 350 and 400 Dave I think it's slows down and and we make more than 300 we make maybe 350 400 yeah I think it's just fascinating if you look at the end of last year if you look at like how much the network kind of multiplied over like a 90-day period the end of last year was around but 11 times over 90-day period right that's come down this year gradually to every 90 days or so kind of the network capacity triples but it's gradually coming down so some of the scenarios we've done kind of brings us between kind of 500 to 700 uh year I'm in the 700 Camp myself but yeah I'm probably

kind of we took bad it's always tricky to Pro kind of the point is what other constraints are there right isn't just the production but it's also yeah and it's also like the data center the investment in power infrastructure and is that incentivized by the current price I granted if price goes up next week considerably there will be investment funds available for for the capital but if we were to believe the 700 which means let's say today is 150 550 at 1.5 million per pah has I think which basically we'll have to assume that somewhere in the world there is 780 to $800 million in capex going into going in plus that much into the power so we are talking about is going to do

that so I think it's $1.2 billion so I think there is 1.2 billion dollars I think that is possible I don't think I don't necessarily think there's that much of that required but but I think like just give number I think it's going to be over 600 um um um but the interesting thing is what are the constraints right is it I think it's increasingly on the data center side rather than the uh the production great thank you everyone now we can open it uh up to questions from the floor anyone have any questions for oh there we go microphone coming your way this is a little bit more with regards to pool mining but uh considering this sort of a strange situation where the closer your approach 51% the more you are potentially

damaging Bitcoin yet you have a profit incentive to try and capture as much of the Mind Bitcoin do you potentially see in the future perhaps some sort of cartel where large mining pools or or groups come to an agreement to to uh have a steady percent growth but sort of stay where they are in terms of percentage or someone sort of other agreement to sort of avoid this strange sort of economic situation where there's more that you could make but I think I think that that that we'll always be in competition so um they'll be sort of this coopertition where we'll agree to be responsible in the way that we grow

for example we can decentralize pools out uh in a way that doesn't give one pool operator or one pool entity too much power but at the end of the day we're going to battle I mean to add I think so sometimes I I feel that people confusing the issue a little bit because the no it's in nobody's interest to get it to 51% as such right everybody knows that so everybody here has kind of money at stake to make sure the credibility of the network stays intact so in bit Fury's case like when we saw one of the pools that we kind of participate in kind of reaching that level we made the decision to switch some that capacity elsewhere and we did that deliberately

and as I know that others have done as well with the aim of kind of protecting the integrity and that is just um selfish mining it's kind of optimizing uh people's interest and and it works so so I think uh that will continue to happen great is that it or do we do one more question well it's up to you really is there one more urgent question burning question there's one here right here um yes I think in general people are brainwashed about 51% attacks because you know it's not about owning uh capacity or it's not in anybody interest to like like you say you know but you know um it's only about having this this

has power for like one hour and we have heard here a lot about Cloud mining but Cloud mining precisely facilitates this process of acquiring Hash Hash power from somebody in a very short time uh frame so any comments about this um I don't know how to synthesize this question anyone have a there'll be I think there'll be kind of there there's already at at this form kind of at this panel right there there's enough competition to to kind of keep that going and I'm also I'm pretty confident there will be solutions to also kind of make a distinction over time and I know there are a lot of people thinking about this to not make um kind of the pool being the det determinant of whether or

not a 51% attack can take place so you can even have a split at a data center level of who actually controls uh uh which server is contributing to which pool right or or even use multi- approaches for for some and even with Cloud hashing um the gigahash could be pointed to different pools even in the same network so um you can certainly avoid uh the 51% problem U the cloud hasing itself doesn't contribute to that problem um it's it's more a way of consolidating Hardware into one place to efficiently mine rather than you know where where power is cheap and cooling is efficient and that kind of thing and then selling the contracts to the end users instead of them owning the Box

themselves and when they own the Box themselves it's it's a physical box it has to go somewhere it's quite big it's it's noisy it's it pumps out heat I mean the the modern mining Hardware isn't that great in the home and it's actually better suited to the data and that being said I I'm very hopeful that uh we have a lot of smart people uh in Bitcoin world and we will find a technical solution to the 51% and uh Pi NOA has made a public statement that we will fund or partially fund with other people uh these developers working on this solution so certainly we will we will find a technical solution and I I think we should all hope and I think we a whole bunch of technical people are

working on it so and if you were at the talk in the earlier today uh my previous panel um we said that there's a short-term solution which is convincing the guilty parties to behave more responsibly and educating the community to point their mining power uh in a more decentralized way but long term we'll solve it with the technical solution so I think we'll be fine I think if uh if if regulation comes to mining especially in the US that's that's one of the things I think will be one of the center points uh that that will be discussed is um either either to to avoid 51% or or or if you can demonstrate that you're responsibly uh putting up more than that

um that you can demonstrate that and that that's controlled and and insured by a regulatory agency I'd like to thank H mining panel thank you very much everyone thank you [Music] thanks thanks so much for listening to our coverage of coin Summit if you enjoy this episode please support us with your donation it really helps us traveling to conferences and produce high quality content for you can donate at EP bitcoin.com tips where we have our tipping addresses and also an option for donation subscriptions your support is much appreciated and special thanks to those generous olds who have already donated to the podcast

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