Digital Assets Lifecycle: Issuance, Trading, Settlement & Custody | European Blockchain Convention 9

Transcript

[Music] 3 2 1 go good morning everyone uh first of all thank you so much for coming here it's great to see a full pack house um and my name is Bal Jaffa I cover crypto and fintech for Dow Jones in London and today we're having a really really interesting topic to discuss the digital assess life cycle and nothing better than to have these prominent names with

me on stage because the entire purpose of having these events is not only networking but I do believe that we can discuss some of the most important topics uh going on in the industry and what the future might look like so uh without further Ado um I would like to introduce my panel and starting with you Jonathan please thanks yeah so I'm Jonathan uh I'm CMO and head of platform strategy at swad swad is uh a joint venture formed by the Banks Standard Charter lbbw and deca bank and our aim is to create a financial infrastructure from and for financial

institutions hi I'm Nadia fi I'm head of innovation and development in kesd Depot KES Depot is a French public uh group and a French public bank and we are working on the subject of uh blockchain and digital asset from uh many years now we began to work on that on 2015 and we are also custody a custodian on digital asset for for our public client and working on on the subject of uh tokenization of assets already and on the hi I'm David Cunningham from City Bank I lead our strategy and

Partnerships for digital assets uh across our payments business so we move about $5 trillion a day in that in that business and uh we're we what we do is just explore all areas uh where where blockchain and other Technologies can help accelerate uh what we do to benefit our clients uh good morning all nice to be here uh my name is Rajiv bamra I am the head of uh strategy and operations for Defi and digital assets at Moody uh what my I and my team do is uh we try to identify operational risks and Technology risks and um evaluate how they would integrate with the known Financial risks based on the

methodologies and Frameworks that exist today uh for the traditional Finance ecosystem hello everyone uh I'm Barby Hodgkins I lead strategy and air at block Damon we're a blockchain infrastructure company we run close to 100,000 uh nodes but also provide staking infrastructure as well as uh wallet Tech as well um we're backside by some of the largest financial institutions in the world including City Bank um and Goldman and JP well thank you very much for the introduction um we'll start with like like the most important topic um in in the digital asset life cycle how

important is it for people to understand the segregation of these functions when we talk about issuance when we talk about trading settlement and custody how important is it for people to actually understand these each and every function starting with you Jonathan can you please set some light on it well I think that question um it if you look at this question um how important is to segregate those roles uh I guess uh you see when you look at it at a grand scale and if you want to go into production truly scale you will realize that you still have these roles you maybe have reassigned them in a certain way right because responsibilities have been reshaped uh redistributed but they do not disappear which is quite interesting

um we have realized this in a lot of projects already now and and as well with a few things that we have brought into production as well and um what we have seen is this still an issue there's still someone that is kind of running a registry so for example we have built in Germany a software that is regulatory compliant for the issuance of bonds of electronic bonds and there you again have a regist kind of like an entity that is responsible for ensuring that you always know who's the real owner of the asset yet you still have a custodian right so the the entire setup is getting more efficient and scalable however the roles are still there there so the the responsibility is just redistributed

that's that's our main take on on that one I would say n would you like to shed some light I think what I can add is here it's important to have distinction between the function if you're an is custodian or an asset manager is not the same and uh it's true in the the trade Finance but I think it need to be true here with the digital assets because one of the point that is important is that you you need to secure your clients the client could be retailer or institutional and there is something about trust and confidence if you don't secure the function on the clients and someone

will uh work on all the life cycle it could be sometimes a little tricky and sometimes you can have a lake of confidence on on on the these intermediaries because uh you don't know where they put their interest and there is some Financial Risk also that you need to be to manage uh and so for me it's it's normal and it's important that we can separate the the function uh even in the world of of digital asset after that uh it could be a little U see like a paradox to set that because digital assets and

blockchain make Q or dlts what you want but uh make all the process really useful and you don't need to have a um you can do all the process in in uh in the same way you don't have to cut the the things so how you manage that in a in a fluent process could be difficult but uh it's a question but I think it's important thank you David I would like to have the institutional side explaining all these different functions um when I'm speaking here with uh my one of my colleagues that I work with closely here from compliance I'm

always thinking what can I say where are my guard rails and that so this is what goes inside my head uh but uh I think it it's important to distinguish um that what what's happening in traditional financial services and what's happening today just for an example in this room who here is involved in uh crypto or digital asset issuance trading settlement or custody in let's say in in regular crypto like let's say in the audience how many people does one of those things with crypto so lot good lots of people there's lots more out at the stands there talking about about doing that so

doing this thing with regular public blockchain uh infrastructure is actually quite easy most of you could probably help me to do this in an afternoon uh what we've seen is doing this in really large regulated financial markets is difficult so you know even for ourselves for us to tokenize a dollar let's say as we've done with uh what we call City token services that we launched recently that takes a long long time and lots of conversations uh in order to do that and that allows us to move money 24/7 between a couple of branches remove cut off hours and do do interesting thing around payments um we're doing a lot of

things in the in the digital assets uh in terms of tokenized bonds and securities as well but you know to do this in a regulated environment takes a lot longer than an afternoon so what what I've seen really is which is good news for everybody who has expertise here is is that we're truly seeing large organizations do things at a scale which we haven't seen before using this technology and those who have skills to help Empower regular Financial Market infrastructure and regular players like globally system system systematically important Banks like ourselves to operate in this space we need your

skills and we need your help and uh and I think we're going to see a massive adoption uh you know in the next number of years where this really grows in the in the regulated space too which is really exciting but I think the the key thing about all of this is that every element of doing this in a regulated uh environment takes takes some time and takes some effort and takes some coordination and takes a lot of work in terms of standard standards and standard setting as well so um you know for me I'm really excited to see how this Tech is going to really massively scale over the next few years into many trillions uh of volume and scale on on a daily basis Raju yes I second everything David

said I come from a traditional financial institution as well and he mentioned compliance Moody is all about compliance and risk management so uh totally Echo everything that David said here however I think one thing that may be missing from an education awareness perspective is the understanding of how the process in a traditional world of let's say for example an issuance of security would look in the defi or a digital Finance ecosystem explaining what would sit on chain what would sit off chain which pieces would disappear or the intermed or disintermediated uh and that is something that will that needs to be done by someone at at a large scales maybe a regulator as as part of their guidance um um and the second piece I

think segregation is important because it does uh allow you allow companies like us to manage risks and uh and also follow compliance from the regulations uh perspective uh uh and uh all it would do is bring in operational complexities but at the same time the benefits of a well organized digital Finance ecosystem would outweigh these complexities and risks that putting the workflow in place and segregated roles and responsibilities would uh would bring to the table Yeah B yeah I I very much agree with what Riv just said there about the importance of segregation like I think we only need to look as far back as FTX and what happened there and I think the days of

these sort of bay moth centralized exchanges where you park your digital assets you trade your digital assets digital assets settle on chain and in some instances that firm even issues their own digital asset that then trades I think they're fully or they're gone or they will go certainly not bullish on that and that obviously the segregation of these roles needs to take place and increasingly is happening and I think you see the rise of sort of regul ated custodians in digital asset space is evidence of that um that being said I don't necessarily think it is as simple as just like oh look what's happened in digital assets we need to just take that market structure from traditional

finance and and put it in digital assets so like to take an example for example I used to um sell uh fixed income in my in in my old career and let's say you issue a bond in traditional Finance it then might get issued by a number of issuing Banks it then Falls onto the trading desk the trading desk might sell it to an asset manager but the asset manager will have to be linked up to a clearing house if it's an egb say Euro CLE going forward there's probably in terms of the segregation of things there will still be need for someone to issue that digital Bond but the extent to which say a City Bank could sell a digital Bond directly into the wallet of a we just saw Crystal like a union

investment or a DWS I think that could potentially happen so I think a lot of lessons to learn from tradire in terms of segregation but also a lot of areas of improvement and potential distance mediation if I if I'm allowed to jump in because I really love what uh rajie and David said about uh the the compliance aspect of things because as soon as you move outside of doing a proof of concept and doing a Pock and going into true scale production right so when compliance does not say okay you're allowed to do three or five trades but okay I'm not going to look at it again because it's checked right that's basically the moment where you have talked to your Tech Guys and says well you maybe redesigned it uh we maybe we

mixed some relationships and responsibilities uh it's just what we can do but is it what we should do right and exactly in that moment you realize okay um having a clear set of distributed responsibilities Mak sense um I would NE not necessarily call it segregation um because I think there there's a lot of relationship going on between those roles as well um but it's important that in particular for regulated entities that distributed cannot mean I'm not responsible if something goes south and that's the the the grand issue I would say and as well where where then the blockchain technology itself comes in for example I remember last year being at as well at

the evbc and we were talking about the teral Luna coin uh where just suddenly the blockchain St right because some people were making losses and the validator said oh well that's not that's not convenient for us so let's let's just stop validating right so that's a new relationship as well that is coming in so we need a clear set of distributed responsibilities to truly scale and only then we will be compliant with The Regulators right and that the only way how we can see that this is achievable is via permissioned infrastructures so since David is in the firing line I think we should ask him more questions so David how has the digital asset life cycle ecosystem changed since

institutions came um the kind of discussion that you used to have couple of years ago how those discussions have changed now when we talk about the digital ENT life cycle I'm talking asking from an Institutional perspective and then then I'll move to Rajiv about it yeah well I think it's probably important to figure out where people are trying to to go like why why are we doing this why is anybody interested in blockchain let's say uh so if we take digital assets what what currently happens let's say with with insecurities is you know our security services team you know want to want to enable our clients to buy a particular asset so the order has to go through um then you know

when the payment comes along there's a swift message uh which is sends the data and then the payment goes on a different Rail and let's say for us we we're like the large we are the largest shareholder in Swift for example but but then we still have to use and maintain 280 clearing systems globally it's a complicated thing along comes ethereum and you get the data which would be Swift's role you get the the the asset and the payment all on one Ledger and you get Atomic settlement there of all of these things I think that's where the industry would love to get to because it you know in the area of risk it reduces risk if you can get paid straight away

or you can enable people to get them into their hands so what we've seen is um you know what what might seem a slow progression in terms of solving parts of that puzzle so you know the the the tokenized Securities the tokenized funds that's starting to come in at in a large scale in the in the regulated world or sorry in in the threadly world let's say uh the the the payments being able to to move 247 with instruments that are actually okay with our Regulators that's starting to come too because you know you you could say you know why doesn't everybody use stable coins or why doesn't everybody use crypto just to to do this thing you know our

Regulators aren't big fans slash won't allow you to uh to use a public chain for payment for example because you don't know if the gas fees are going to sanctioned entity or sanctioned country or whatever uh governments also prefer to have sovereignty uh and control over their currency they prefer Sovereign currencies so what we're seeing now is we're seeing obviously cbdcs coming to life but we're seeing tokenized uh Bank deposits and liabilities let's say which are sovereign money on a blockchain that gives the benefits of 24/7 but is with a a legal instrument that countries and

governments are very comfortable with so we're we're starting to see uh great comfort coming and real real things coming to life at scale in the security space in in tokenized Securities in tokenized cash uh and and Regulators being comfortable with it so it's been a journey but right now I feel it's it's just at the edge where it's going to really there's so many large organizations in the regul data space working on this so for ourselves we we collaborate with a bunch of other banks with MasterCard with Swift with the regulator to experiment in things like the regulat liability Network so it's it's just at that Tipping Point where

it's gone from not much of a cycle cuz there wasn't much happening to a lot happening quite quickly is is is my current view as to where things are at and David From tokenization perspective what are your plans going forward expansion plan how would you like to expand your services within that ecosystem of tokenization well I I think for for you know for City ourselves what we've done is we just launched as I said City token Services which which enables cash movement for our clients between two branches just to start with New York and Singapore um just with pilot clients at the moment so it's not it's not fully Fully live uh and and rolled out to

everybody but essentially it's a move in a direction that sees us Ena people to remove cut off hours to remove money trapped uh over weekends let's say in certain areas so it allows for that truly 24/7 money and then we also launched um City token services for trade which tokenizes things like uh letters of credit to make to take them into a smart contract so you're seeing so for so for us this is a you know brings a 24/7 process that sits on top of 24/7 money which is really exciting and and we will will be expanding that I'm not going to go into the details now but but the goal is that this is quite widespread through throughout ourselves

but if I can step away from our immediate road map what you're seeing from large institutions is you're seeing huge benefits from this technology in systemizing paper-based human in the loop fraud prone error prone processes like uh bills of exchange bid guarantees standby letters of credit uh all of these things blockchain is going to really make a huge impact in but once you've digitize those paper-based human in the loop processes if you don't have money that moves 247 you've got a big problem so that's where the industry is moving to the money being 24/7 and the instruments

used being 24/7 that's where I see it going thank you um Rajiv your views institutions impacting the digital asset life cycle no no so David actually covered everything so 24/7 AIS for sure uh time to Market or speed to Market uh operational efficiency cost um asset diversification uh as well as risk diversification on our end but I would just like to turn that turn turn that a little bit and speak from the from the digital Finance perspective um we've seen the market value of digital Finance drop in the past year or so or 18 months or so by about 60 70 % this is duee to the investors trying to move

their assets or their investment from a more um uh risk seeking to a risk averse portfolios in the traditional Finance space with all the interest rates going up and uh and and better portfolios being available and more risk ERS portfolios are being available in the ecosystem this is in a way trying to also showcase that more and more def protocols in the past few months have tried to integrate with the real world econ economy and thereby also working with the institutions to expand their own um asset and product diversification which also as I said diversify the risks so if a traditional Institute were to tokenize a pool of loans on a blockchain

platform they can open it up to the investors in a D5 protocol thereby also sharing the credit and counterparty risks by the investors on both in both ecosystems and vice versa so this also kind of helps institutions to use the technology and the efficiencies the Technologies bring as well as increasing the range of products they can offer by integrating with digital Finance uh ecosystem thank you Jonathan you yeah just just to elaborate and add maybe uh as well to the to the discussion on on how institutional are now shaping this adoption right and how the space has changed uh last week I had a a very funny conversation with a fell from the well I would say pure Bitcoin fan base right and he was asking well Jonathan

I read that in the Savings Banks group you are now already issuing bonds to each other to refinance the individual institution right that's such a boring asset why do you do that and I'm like yeah well because it is so boring we see that we can actually achieve Mass adoption right because it's so simple and plain I want to be financed I issue a bond and this process is so much more resilient than paper based so that's what we see um for example by lbb by sner Charter by Deca by the diverse set of Savings Banks that are on boarding already and have executed trades it's like um we at the point where institutionalsales

so natural digital assets you could say natural digital bonds for example and um so this learning process and this understanding process has gone so far that I am quite confident that we probably next year will be more talking about um which platforms are now in the lead in the regulated space because the institutions are adopting so fast thank you Nadia your thought yes I and I agree with with uh all what said before but um me I'm working for a very very old institution okay more than 200 years and so it's difficult to explain to people that you will change something that it's work already so you need to explain the benefit and the 247 is the one of of the

benefit but it's not sufficient and as you said there is a question of Regulation and if you can explain to institutional that you can work on new things that will help them for example you have a lot of now of regulation of ESG reporting and ESG data and it's growing up I think a lot and uh it will grow again and it's an issue for uh the the the issuer it's an issue for the asset manager it's the issue for the risk entity it's the issue for the compliant and if you use the technology to help them to work on that and

especially for example you can work on the smart contract and provide all the information that you need for for the the green Finance it could help for example and it will more will be more easy to on board them I think it's it's something really uh very important and I'm not sure that for the moment and I agree with the distinction that they will work more and on the the currencies because it's something a little tricky and with something that there is a an area here of risk really uh important uh but if they work on Securities in the beginning like at traditional asset that we digitalize

it's something could be good in a in a first way and working on crypto assets for institutional I think it will be very thin in the beginning because it's the same there is some regulation uh and for example in in what happen on on the the guarantee that are um demanding for B tree for example for Basel it's very huge and complicated for the institutional thank you B yeah I think it's almost um from my perspective the only thing I would add is and it might almost seem counterintuitive given the levels of volume that institutions are bringing or

call it traditional Finance institutions are bringing to the party at the minute but I do think going forward what they they will bring is huge amounts of volume and liquidity that uh genuinely speaking like it isn't there or certainly relatively speaking traditional Finance isn't there so to give an example I used to um sell fixed income repo and we would do billions billions a day and and so you're starting to see Banks like City Goldman JP tokenize the cash tokenize the money market funds or the bonds and do that repo instead of the cash or the bond settling the following day it settles instantaneously so that money can go and be used around their Global operations and the same can be said for the

examples that David gave around the 247 movement of cash so I think once they are rubber stamp by compliance internally at those those sorts of Institutions the genuine volumes you could see could could very much be like a like a hockey stick and so I think the the native cryptocurrency Market is obviously there's been the the um the rally over the last few days but sort of hovering around one trillion you I think you'll quickly see the the market cap and say tokenized Securities tokenized cash um surpass that pretty quickly over the the over the sort of next 3 four five years and when we talk about traditional finance my my next question is that how different or similar the

process is when we talk about the issuance trading settlement and custody of digital assets compared with the traditional assets like equities how what sort of differences and similarities are there starting with you naria oh um differences uh I think uh there is one difference that you are not using the same technology first of all it's really concentrated uh because if you are using Swift swift it's a standard for everyone uh now if you are looking digital asset you can use different protocols so there is no there is different standards but there is

no um even if some are using more what is based on etherum or polygon and others but it's something really different to unify the standards and said we will use only one protocol I think the the war is not finished here so there is there is a commercial War so it's something difficult and um for example for the settlement for the moment if you are not using um uh true um true money you you can do the set you can do the settlement with with a stable coin or or commercial digital bank but you you

are not allowed to go on the end on the finality of the settlement if you don't use uh Fiat money for the moment so there is here something that it's complicated and and a little different and on the custody and as a custodian on digital asset and custodian on on on class on traditional asset financial asset when we launch the offer on the custody we work with the the same entities the compliance the risk blah blah blah and there is a really a difference because today it's a little tricky to uh do your K there to know where is are the going are the asset

where they are going there is a difference because um all the process on custody it's it's less uh STP than than in a classical way and it's difficult to to manage the key and you are not a custodian on the asset concretely you are a custodian on the key and when uh Jonathan was talking about responsibility here there is a responsibility and it could we could have a lake of understanding if we don't know really where is the responsibility who is managing that and this point it's little different I think then in a classical

way yeah David please I'm asking this because there are some traditional Financial firms including Banks who are still not in in the digital asset space so for them to understand the similarities or differences it'll they'll be in a better position to get into this ecosystem so yeah uhy I I think the journey is important animportant I mean look until a year and a half ago I was CEO of different fintech startups reg Tech uh you know some businesses using multi-party computation I know what it's like to be starting as a as an entrepreneur with the idea that anything is possible uh and that's a good place to be for

experimentation I think with so if you're in an unregulated area you know anything is possible to to a degree and you start with that premise in a regulated institution you need to start with the idea that nothing is possible unless you have expressed permission for it even to be remotely possible so you got to work with the larger organizations to say I know this is it's a no-brainer to digitize paper based old instruments that have been used for years like we do something like 40 million letters of credit a year like that's billions and billions of pieces

of paper and humans in the loop it makes total sense to to to do this right but you got to work in stages to get permission for everything and it's very much a ask for permission rather than an ask for forgiveness type scenario so I think it's just important for those of us who are used to you know being in that entrepreneurial world where where anything is possible to just when you're trying to move to traditional finance and regulated kind of areas to get into the trillion so for us at City we we pushed a report there uh in March that talked about about 13 trillion worth of

digital assets by 2030 you know um it it is going to be huge and then you've got the Global Payments uh we just published a report saying that that's a $250 trillion uh prize there so the the prize is large for all of us who have the patience to work and kind of get permission to push things on and to help move in a regulated manner because we'll be working in just a much bigger pie uh rather than you know as Barnaby quite rightly said so what I would say is just for for those of us that are here who are in interested in advancing the use of this technology you know be be patient and try and see how far

you can go and and and help change those standards and let's work together to try and push the standards because the more our Regulators get comfortable with this then uh then the better for everyone R please yeah I mean everything that U that uh uh uh David and Nadia just said uh I would Echo that but um I think it's important to identify the use case and blockchain is not a solution for everything I think uh some use cases are just being put on blockchain why not uh but we need to identify the right use cases have the right uh Assets in mind before even we tokenize it and find the need for the kind of efficiency it would bring if

blockchain is used for that particular asset so that's that's that's one thing but um the difference between the two ecosystems is we've mentioned this before 24/7 availability and accessibility a huge difference I think tradition institutions are going to um use that as much as possible by you know by introducing new products but at the same time uh with digital Finance ecosystem uh being integrated into traditional Finance there is also more Market maturity that needs in the digital Finance ecosystem which exists only in the traditional finance and the kind of products you can issue in the existing regulatory uh framework can only happen on the traditional Finance

side and not on the digital Finance side yet so we already spoke about the benefits of the digital Finance ecosystem but I think there are benefits on the traditional side which the which the others the digital Finance ecosystem can make use of and and learn from and probably the integration will help both sides in the long run B yeah the only thing I would add is um I think it's good I think the custody space and the difference between those two spaces is super interesting and I'm personally very interested to see how that one plays out like the difference between the two at the minut it is one is highly regulated and one is like not regulated whatsoever on the digital asset space so if you're a traditional custodian for every $1 you custody you

have to either be insured for that $1 or you need to hold that $1 on your balance sheet those rules will come to digital assets through Ma and I think the United States is fig still figuring it out but when they come it'll be very interesting to see who sinks and who floats and and and and what firms come out on top because a lot of digital a asset custodians are currently working to a Runway as there a lot of people in the in the digital asset space so they certainly don't have capital on balance sheet and the insurance market for digital assets isn't necessarily mature enough right now to ensure these digital asset custodians so I think that's an interesting space like the way custody of digital assets custody of tokenized

Securities pans out um and depending on how much those native digital asset custodians mature in the next sort of halfer half a decade could play into like who necessarily gets that prize that David alluded to Jonathan well connecting to the connecting to the aspect of key differences right um I I thought um there's one one major key difference that I think uh we haven't discussed yet is actually the the conscious choice of the infrastructure that I'm going to use I mean we briefly touched upon this in in this panel but um the difference between now now and and then was that uh I mean tra traditional Finance for

example of course I can move that on the blockchain and we have all the benefits that rajish mentioned and I would say it's well uh instantaneously right instantaneously I think that that missed was missing in that list um but of course I can as well get a few new use cases even though we must uh agree or must must say um a true product Market fit in an Institutional grade we haven't seen yet from these new cases right um there's always this element of speculation in it um so I think the most probable case is that tread file will be moving onto the blockchain and and and scaling there and there the key difference is now that the regulator um is is making suggestions on how to treat

this from a capital treatment perspective for banks so um if we look at uh Bank of international settlement um we have seen a paper that has been consulted already twice and it's now in the last phase of consultation on cap on the credential treatment of capital asset exposure and with capital asset um they mean actually all assets on crypto uh environments so all blockchains and they say well if you do not want to have additional uh Capital treatment on those assets you must as well evaluate which blockchain infrastructure you're using because and I guess that's something for moodies to evaluate then in the future um is

how does it comply with Outsourcing questions right how is the material risk being managed what if a validator just stops working right um so the current the current perspective that the regulator from uh that point of view is taking is that um unper permissioned is not suitable for a scaled um in production uh grade for institutions and um I think that is a not a trivial choice and um actually must be considered as well by the business units which infrastructure do I want to use and do not leave it with the techies right we have seen that in the past it has been left with the techies because they can build better things on that

environment or better things on that environment but coming back to the compliance part um the question is well should I do it right and I think that's that's the key aspect on them if I can if I can just add a point so uh digital Finance ecosystem brings in uh makes everything cheaper f faster and more efficient cheaper the rois will be seen in a few years time the cost efficiency won't be seen in the near future but it will take a while to show uh from a risk assessment perspective and coming back to compliance digital Finance ecosystem also adds a layer of technology and operational risks when it comes to credit assessment that we do uh at Moody's and that's also the work that we do where we have to look at the platform risks what protocol you're using does it

have business continuity planning so someone mentioned teral Luna earlier and and how the blockchain just just went down I mean that's that's a problem if you if you're assessing the credit risk for example smart contract risks are the new form of risks and the and the most important ones along with how the assets are being represented on chain so I think those are the risks that also need to be looked into when you talk about digital Finance ecosystem it's basically the risk you get by using decentralized setup or distributed setup because you get others involved in your operations right and this risk has to be evaluated somehow and we we see that now the regulator is catching up and saying well these are the following penalties if you're in the wrong setup perfect thank you so much everyone um that was it um

it was really really nice talking to you and hopefully uh we will be able to see a more improved version of digital life cycle in the future could could I add one more thing I think just just what I think we need to look at is what future we see do we see a digital asset Network and then a trfy network or do we see the two interacting you know and I think regulators and lawmakers struggle with one that's totally blockchain and having to regulate that in something else and I think for for us what we're doing here

today which this conversation has been great part of is trying to figure out how do we upgrade the financial Market infrastructure globally to take the benefits of blockchain to upgrade the existing one because I think I'm not sure that there will be two uh but I one I'd love your thoughts on that I don't know we I think we've got 50 seconds or so but but I think that that's my view is that like if we can work together to upgrade the existing uh I think that will uh that will be a huge pie for all of us to work in yeah I think if you can find aor sorry I agree because it will never be two because if there is two there is one that will die

because there is no Market here and we are always running on the market and the benefit on the market and the point of the regulator is not a point of regulating a technology but regulating a market and I think we don't need to opposite that and if the digital asset market and the blockchain market could uh show that it's possible to have dist straty on this those infrastructure and there is benefits it will work but if we cannot show that there is benefit it will not work I think already thank great job on moderating the panel by the way thank you thank you thank you every thank

you