Dencun: The Catalyst for Ethereum's L2 Vision | Roundup

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where I Just Disagree is this like attitude that I feel like this is the third time I've seen it out in Forest like it's only going to be Bitcoin like Bitcoin is the thing that's going to cross the chasm and none of this other stuff is I just I've just seen that disproven so many times I think the other thing that people always underestimate is like okay I miss Bitcoin what's next like what's the next Bitcoin and like that driver for investors is so powerful every single Market happens the same way it starts with Bitcoin and then it goes to ethereum or all layer ones and then it goes to Alt coins it's happening the same time this time around it's just we're at Bitcoin right now hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to the Wormhole Foundation if you're a bell curve listener you know that

transferring across chains can be a massive pain I certainly do I complain about it on this program all the time that's why we are super pumped to have partnered with the Wormhole Foundation the stewards of the Wormhole protocol the Wormhole protocol connects over 30 blockchains and six different run times including salana SOI ethereum layer 2os and more and the cool part about this particular partnership is that they have made custom bell curve nfts which you can get and mint for free you can claim that by just going down into the show notes and clicking on the link all right guys on with the show hey everyone this episode is brought to you by swell a team leading the reaking future with their liquid reaking token R swe now I've talked about liquid reaking on this program before I think it is going to be a massive tectonic shift for ethereum

and I am super super excited about it and I like the swell team a lot goes without saying do your own research this is not Financial advice you guys all know the drill again I like this team and if you stick around I'm going to describe how you can restake your eth in swell earn pearls I layer points and a whole bunch of future rewards so thank you very much for swell for making this episode possible hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to this episode sponsor flood protocol the optimal decks aggregator now if you are a listener of bell curve you know that me is a massive problem which is why we are so pumped to partner up with flood on this season flood is the only gasless and me free aggregator that not only gets you the best execution but also giv gives you

back all the extra Surplus that you create every single time you swap now this is relevant for both swappers and developers but you're going to be hearing all about them later in the program so for now thank you flood and back to the show all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve before we jump in quick disclaimer the views expressed by my co-host today are their personal views and they do not represent the views of any organization with which the co-hosts are associated with nothing in the episode is construed or relied upon as Financial technical tax legal or other advice you know the deal now let's jump into the episode all right everyone welcome back to another round up of bell curve we got Michael's one and two Advance fellas how

we doing I think I I think my cup of coffee is bigger than Michael's we've had big yeah well I've got the double load I've got the this guy and and the cup yeah Micha and I had a sleepover this week I was staying at his house for a while it was pretty funny adorable that's that's really wholesome guys that's the type of wholesome content that people come to bcro for wholesome stuff just drinking beers having fun eating chicken it's been a big week been a big week uh we got danoun so happy dankun day to everyone out there who is celebrating um danoun is the the hard Fork that we've all been talking about

for some time now there are a whole bunch of different improvements that ended up getting lumped in and passed there but 4844 um Proto dang sharting was the biggest one and we're just talking a little bit off air about like what everyone has been very laser focused on is what fees are going to do on l2s and it looks like fees are sub one cent now um but what do you guys think of tenun in general I mean great great accomplishment I think this is the biggest uh hard Fork since the merge so a massive upgrade um seemed to have drawn swimmingly just in terms of the actual process of up in itself Jesse Pollock talks about how his goal for base is to be able to have 1 second transaction time and one less than one

cent cost it seems like they're already there in terms of cost at least from what I've seen a lot of the the transactions that are happening on base are are less than one cent optimism the same thing I think arbitr launches later today uh or maybe it was last night um but basically all the l2s are implementing this New Concept called blobs blobs become a new type of block space where you're basically putting together all of the transaction data all of everything that's happening on the l2s and and submitting that for settlement on L1 um and that process is just a lot cheaper um so I think there's a ton of things to talk about here obviously you know from a user perspective this is the cost that we've been looking for um and from kind of a

an L2 perspective I think there's a lot of opportunity for them to start to build business models around you know where where do the fees go how do the agregate to the sequencer what's the business model of the sequencer um so now that this has happened I think we can kind of move in that direction and we know of a number of different l2s or um networks that are working on building their own l2s that have been waiting for danoun to go in so that they can finally launch their L2 at a not C cost prohibitive level uh so I would imagine that now is sort of the opening of the gates of a bunch of new l2s that are going to be launching and and scal building so I think this is it's a great accomplishment hats off to everybody

that built it um and excited to see where it goes yep I I think the biggest thing relatively to the rest of the chains is now like fees being cheap is not a differentiator uh like if if it's a cent per transaction um I think it takes some wind out of the sales of like memec coins can only happen on chains that are outside of eth now it's kind of like all of the l2s are eligible for that um and keep in mind the biggest meme coins are still on eth L1 uh so I think there is some shifting of the landscape of um what people compete on and every L2 that we talk to has a mem coin strategy so like these meme coins are pretty easy to

create um obviously there's no app behind it that's like the point of a meme coin but all of these l2s are now going to have mem coins whether they be cat coins or dog coins or hat coins or whatever um so I think you'll see that shift in the near- term but I I just think uh now you can't compete on low fees like if someone's like no our fees are like 0.001 Cent and yours are only 0.001 cents it's like that doesn't really make much sense um so positive for eth I also think just like credibility and you know promises made Promises Kept in terms of like this has been coming for I think a year maybe more um and it's just good to see it finally Shi I don't know what the

next hard Fork is but it feels like this is probably the most impactful one that we're going to have for at least the next year for usually I I think maybe I saw someone tweet this something along the lines of you you just have to give it up for the eth core devs here I mean any first of all any one of these these people that are this deeply involved in actually shipping this they could go raise $50 million you know tomorrow with a billion dollar valuation probably make a bunch of money but they're just like True Believers like actually um care about the cause and they built the they built the plane in mid-flight like it's just a really really difficult thing to do there's not like a great analog for it even in uh traditional Tech so I just think it's a massive accomplishment and

shout out to all the e core devs working on this to be honest the other thing I'll say is like it kind of reminds me of uh when maker jacked up interest rates and people were like oh this is really bearish maker and I was just looking at it like this is just going to Moon Revenue to like 600 700 million doll a year and I think the same thing is happening with dencon where people are like yeah it's shipped like sell the news but really what's going to be material is all these new I guess like meme coins and apps that are coming to these l2s and all these new l2s they are launching to Michael's Point there's probably a thousand l2s that are going to come out of the gate in the next year that is the that is the most frequent pitch that we see um is we're building a

new L2 and like you know I think it's getting kind of hard to tell them apart but just the quantity of them is pretty positive for what's going to happen because these l two people are not the same type of people that would be building protocols on Ethel one so it's not like cannibalistic it's just like net new ads well I I think yeah just just to like basically say the exact same thing in a different way every single time that we see fees get cut the per transaction fees get cut what you actually see is you know fee amount of fees times number of transactions equals you know protocol Revenue you see the drop in in fees per transaction you actually see a large larger increase in

total number of transactions that ultimately increases the aggregate amount of Revenue that's flowing to that protocol I think this is going to be the exact same thing you know like the the left of the bell curve take is or or maybe the mid curve take is uh you know fees go down Revenue goes down actually I think it's the complete opposite and we've seen this multiple times before where as you reduce fees it opens up new opportunities for new types of transactions that weren't possible before which far surpasses the drop in per transaction costs and so Revenue we we would expect to increase I am on that page too well what do you guys say I did see a little bit of push back on the timeline about um there's there's uh we don't really know what the new clearing price for transaction on l2s is going to be like a lot of the l2s

haven't implemented denune yet so there's basically it's probably going to be a little bit higher than what it ultimately is today um what what do you guys think about some of that push back on the current reduction in fees that we saw probably true um I think the fees are probably going to Trend to be 10 cents to 1 cent the subsc ones are maybe kind of like in lower gas periods like eth is still L1 at least is 86 way so it's it's like a lot of this a lot of the the block space at least is being uh occupied by just like a lot of price movement you know on L1 and flows being pushed back and forth through Unis swap but I think 10 cents to 1 cent is probably the right way to think about

this um but in my my mind that is enough for developers I I think where we're like where my Benchmark is at least is like can developers subsidize activity for users and I think that's in the range that they can and it might be a couple hundred thousand dollars a year but like if you want to fully abstract gas away like what IMX is doing you're you're now there you can do it I I think also in addition to denune just the point about not competing on the basis of fees anymore is right because one there's going to these like Proto dang sharting eventually full DK sharting but also I think l2s are going to start to experiment and push the limits in terms of uh on like the Computing and execution um that they're

designing to their like there's a whole bunch of I'm sure you guys have probably seen some of these new l2s that are launching right now and they're kind of a lot of them that I've seen are kind of like skipping to the end here and just uh you know they're settling down to eth but they're you know decently centralized decently beefy in terms of the hardware requirements they're going to be like super fast and super cheap and they're probably positioning against kind of like the monads of the world um I think that are launching soon so it's kind of like you're getting fee reductions from two different angles here if that makes sense yep and and and things like bar chain like the the monads and the and the bar chains of the world are like I would say they're they're kind of different in the sense

that like they're a philosophical challenge to the other l1s like that's kind of what the L1 trade is it's like you did it this way but what if you did it this way and this is a whole different Paradigm allegedly I think there's some truth to that though um I think with the l2s and and generally the l1s as well it's like okay you launch the L1 you launch the L2 you get fees to be cheap you build out all the defi Primitives you build out a couple nft collections you build out a couple meme coins then what and I think we're kind of getting to that then what point um where like if you're a chain like immutable X and you have 300 400 games launching on you you're just like you've taken it to different level of

competition where these other chains can't just like slap together a Unis swap competitor and launch it and call it a defi EOS system like it takes a lot of effort to get to where mutable X is a lot of capital A lot of software that is not entirely blockchain related so I mean that's where we think things are going I we also think things are just like extremely bullish in all regards and like you're probably not going to have um this realization of fundamental value for you know the next few months but this year is the year where all these games launch and and when we get to the next generation of applications um and I think it's going to be hard if you don't have like a unique differentiator like if forecaster has an L2 and lens has an L2 and like social really takes off like are you really

gonna be able to compete with social either like how hard is that it's probably pretty hard I think that's a really good point and I don't know there was a there was a period a little while ago where I feel like people are some some of the chains like some of the l1s that like never really found product Market fit or like they relaunched as an L2 trying to buy into this narrative um and I think you're probably seeing that already early stages of that in the reaking world with avss like hey you know it's really everyone's saying it's about Economic Security but like maybe really what you're actually doing is plugging into this sexy narrative around reaking and abss all that kind of stuff and maybe that can work for a little bit but fance I agree with you that I think you got to have something distinguishing

other than just like really cheap because everyone's going to have that if they don't already you yeah and on the ABS point you know someone's going to be able to be the first ABS but everybody after that is going to be the second the third the fourth like you're not g to be able to rely on that distribution Channel as being your core differentiator for a very long time yeah there's I mean even the l2s now are kind of like we're doing svm we're settling to Soul Eesa or whatever that it like they're trying to like Mount this philosophical challenge for me at least that falls a little flat um because for the alt l1s what they have is their own native asset they also have all the Mev that happens on that chain and that is like kind of this economic

amplifier uh and so I think it's gonna be hard for the l2s to mount like philosophical challenges I think they're going to have to mount basically like application challenges um and I think it's going to be pretty obvious when you know like I think this is the year that our gaming thesis is starting to play out like pixels hit a million month active users you know maybe 25% of that is Bots um but when one chain has you know 10 million monthly actives in a few months and it's a gaming chain and all these other l2s are like you know they've got like the the fifth like Trader Joe clone on them like you're going to be able to tell and I think we're getting to that then what point pretty quickly well to your point so what I

would love to see is you know for a long time people are like this is the most common take ever right we have to much infrastructure not enough apps but I think there was really good reason for that you know there has been cheap block space but there was always cheap block space on these kind of shitty chains that you didn't want to be on for the most part now you actually have cheap block space on l2s that settle to ethereum or salana or whatever like there's lots of good chains platform risk is less than it used to be or at least there's like there are ways that you can launch on cheap block space where you aren't taking an enormous amount of platform risk so maybe this maybe this will be the cycle where kind of wake up and realize like hey some of

these um roadblocks that used to exist around on the infrastructure side of things don't exist anymore maybe we should be building apps now you can hope um I mean I think so um I think also like we play the very very long game as do you guys where like our fund is a 10-year life cycle so we have time um and I just find it hard to believe that if you forecast out 10 years like it's going to be just this infrastructure thing um and you kind of got to skate to where the puck is going and I think what we do well is like we invest with conviction and then we just camp out we just post up for even years like chain link took years um many of these things take years Baker obviously is is taken

years endgame was announced two years ago to the day today that's pretty wild the the the other thing I'll say just in terms of like putting a bow on it Vance already mentioned this but just to to push it forward the biggest impediment to growth from a consumer adoption perspective is gas and if you are able to abstract away the gas for users in a way that a lot of the applications that we've seen scale and grow etc etc uh that is going to be the biggest growth Vector possible and so it's not necessarily about like you know what multiple of less than what fraction of a dollar is is your actual gas fees the question is is it low enough and is

there enough usage and Revenue for that application to pay the gas on behalf of the users and if yes then it's going to be a scalable application sign up with a username password email password and never have to even think about the blockchain for 95% of the users that are on it um and so that's where I think Dan actually is approaching that level for for a lot of applications I I posted a joke about like you know we've lowered gas cost to 0.001 cents but what about the people who can only afford 0.001 cents it's like maybe those aren't exactly the right number everyone's trying to ratio me in the replies for you know these people have mental illnesses but like you know like my point is like you you reach a point of

diminishing marginal Returns on cost going lower like I'm sure we could figure out a blockchain construction where it's free that wouldn't open up the market much more than it being like practically free and we're kind of there I agree call to action for new Builders out there look at applications um that would be that would be awesome um maybe we can I know you guys are bringing up maker a little bit um maybe we could transition to that because like maker uh one of the things our analysts were talking about this week is the raise uh so the DSR the die savings rate that got raised to 15% um I I saw some speculation on Twitter that this might have been a little bit of a response to Athena and

the rates that they're paying out so Athena is this like they were a stable coin now they're not a stable coin they're a vault that offers you uh basically Delta hedged exposure to um you know the price of to borrow eth for the most part so I saw some speculation that like maybe there's a little bit of competition there like how do you guys interpret the uh the 15 the raise on the die savings rate the maker side of things on the Athena side um I mean you're going to be able to borrow against esusd on spark and and you know the rate for that will be you know effectively what Athena is yielding at to borrow minus maybe a percent or

something to make it economical for the person who's doing the borrowing so I mean this is kind of what maker has always done in bull runs is there's just some amazing new yield farming offering you know 200% apy and you basically offer die borrow against that and what that allows maker to do is capture all of that yield and in the current endgame Paradigm what's that what that is used for is buying back uh the maker token and so just to go over the broader um kind of interest rate raise interest rates spiked all across crypto and defi so like this wasn't in my mind like an emergency raise for any reason it was like a rates are 20 to 20

20 to 30% and make or borrow was like six so you know when you have that what people are going to do is they're going to borrow die they're going to put it you know they're swap to usdc they're going to put in Na and you have all the economics going to the people who are doing this carry trade and only you know 6% of the 25% going to maker which is like not what maker wants maker wants to capture as much economics as possible at the same time giving people some sort of small spread uh to incentivize them to borrow so that's kind of the general uh perspective of like why maker would raise interest rates and and make is going to have this really interesting thing where it's um t- Bulls in the bear crypto denominated loans in the bull and

when per rat Spike and per rates are not going to spike forever and there's only a limited amount of capacity for this trade you know you can put it in per and and what they're trying to do and this is you know in the Rune doc that he just posted is like seamless transition from t- bills to crypto lending to per you kind of have this like holy trinity of yield um and outside of this what the main the main thing that happened this week was run posted the long awaited update on endgame and when things are launching and he gave a timeline um and it's this summer so you know the the headlines of this are uh there's going to be a new brand reveal in probably June uh or may um

that will Lo last a month then you will have be able to farm uh the new die token and you will be rewarded with uh maker inflation but also spark inflation and so it's going to be like this super high yielding kind of yield farm that will drive additional demand and then you're going to have esusd as well and so I I think you know I'm looking at the maker website this is lower than what we think it is they believe that they have around 200 million of annual profits we' probably put this closer to like three or 400 but that's just going to keep going up and why we bought you know all of our maker forget you know maybe a year and a half ago was we thought it would get to a

billion in earnings this cycle and I think it's going to get there and I think it's going to get there this year and if you have a billion of earnings buying back a token that's worth 2 you know three billion that's pretty crazy and I think you're going to have this virtuous cycle where the yield from pers the endgame inflation um you know all of the above is just going to absolutely make this like it is the number two earnings producing app in crypto behind ethereum it's worth $2.2 billion dollar so obviously we can't express bullish or bearish opinions here but we're not selling our maker yeah not Financial

advice not Financial advice corner I mean these these stats if you're following along via video or looking at the uh the tvl revenue and uh token price of maker in charts and yeah it's funny I mean people always say that um crypto doesn't trade on fundamentals for the most part I think that's true but I mean there's a certain amount of sense like this chart makes a certain amount of sense um and it actually kind of looks like maker is trading on something that looks like fundamental so yeah I mean and just a massive is that jump in revenue is that associated with the that's the DSR hike right or no no no that's the interest rate interest rate hike yeah interest rate hi yeah the other part of this is that the DSR has been raised to 15% right which is pretty

interesting um given that the FED funds rate is at 5.5% so you're naturally incentivizing people to take usdc buy die they'll do that through the PSM that usdc stays in the PSM which is liquidity for shorting the per on Athena or crypto denominated loans or really whatever um but you kind of are entering into this virtuous cycle where I think we're going to see the DSR probably drain and move into these endgame farms and that'll also increase profitability um yeah I mean like I think fundamentals don't matter in crypto until their

BuyBacks I think that's kind of where I've n it out tvl was a meme even Revenue frankly might be a meme but when you have these when you have fundamentals manifesting right now it's 200 million BuyBacks we think that's going to go to 500 to a billion of BuyBacks this cycle like something has to give it's the same thing as the Bitcoin ETFs where like black rock is trying to buy all these coins up every single day but um you know it's one/ 100th the scale of Bitcoin yeah things things I'd add to that are um this cycle it feels like profitable D5 is going to be the thing that takes over the D5 narratives and we're starting to see that you know I I think the governor's proposal ultimately

didn't pass but you saw the movement on the Unis swap side wanting to implement that fee switch that flows to the treasury to the to the Dow um Foundation um you're starting to see this as a recognition amongst a number of other protocols you know that are D5 blue chips or def OG defi 1.0 type uh protocols but profitable defi that deliver value back to the Token holders is going to be the narrative for defi this cycle a and frankly like institutions institutions I guess do have that like Killer Instinct of like whatever has momentum um we should buy the downside of that is like when it works against

you you just look like a [ __ ] idiot and you might get fired but like if you have like this institutional fundamentally driven bull case um and you can always point to these numbers like you probably get to keep your job if it retraces um and so I think these are going to be the natural home for a lot of things I also think the circle IPO I haven't heard what the update is on that recently but like that will be in the background of like you you you know circle is I mean I be interested to see what the circle financials are but my guess is that maker might be more profitable than than Circle do you have a like a sort of mental model for how you think about the market cap of stable coins like I've just sort of noticed that it looked like

advaned I think I saw you Tweeting about this a little while ago but it looked like the usdc market cap bottomed back in around November of last year um and it's been sort of looks like it's recovering um tether obvious like people have sort of been following the financials of that business it looks phenomenal that is just like a oneway up only chart do you guys have a sort of mental model for how people should view the market cap of stable coins just within the context of where we are in the cycle and what people are using it for like what's driving that um I think I mean as as uh as we kind of talked about earlier there is a shortage of dollars in crypto and that manifests in the per rates and it manifests in The

Lending rates of a and like stable coins will grow as people take advantage of that opportunity um and I think that is frankly like more tether than usdc usdc like one of the things you need to realize about stable coins is that they have these massive Market maker incentive programs and basically what that deal is is like Market maker puts you know stable coins on Exchange Y and you know as a part of holding it there and providing that as collateral they earn some sort of yield pass through that you know the stable coin issuer uh has gotten from investing those stable coin Pro T bills and so there are kind of like these levers that

the stable coins themselves the the centralized ones at least can pull to kind of like bottom their supply it's just like Market maker incentives um but at the same time it's hard to deny that some of this growth at least on the usdc side is organic as well because you've seen a lot of stable coin inflows into these uh Define lending protocols to take advantage of these rates so it's it's kind of hard to say um I don't think usdc I think usd's gone up by like six billion from the bottom from like 24 to 30 I think tether I mean yeah like this chart looks good doesn't look amazing um yeah it doesn't look amazing to be honest the tether chart looks like

incredible yeah I agree see that and it's yeah I mean this thing is absolutely just cooking that's that is incredible looking chart if that was a coin you would buy that um there was a non-stable coin coin you'd buy that that's geob Bowden that's Gio Bowden level charts um but yeah I I think generally we're seeing Capital inflows it becomes Financial gravity when you have the ability to earn yield in excess of what you'd be able to get outside of the crypto space and now you

can do that at scale I mean Athena is at at last I check 65% obviously not the most scalable it's got almost a billion of tvl but you're going to be able to borrow uh and lend you know in in ways like a uh a I think lending was at 25% um and that is actually still very scalable I mean you're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars if not billions of dollars of capacity at 20% plus hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to the title sponsor of this season of B curve the Wormhole Foundation now if you are an onchain user which I bet you are if you're listening to belur you know that the cross chain experience in crypto still sucks let's just call it Spade to Spade

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we're doing this with me and we're doing this with Jason my co-founder so help a brother out it's a super cool nft I promise go click the link at the bottom of this episode and fill out your PO app get your free nft and if you're a Dev head over to Wormhole and check out to see what cool cross chain stuff you can build hey everyone this episode is brought to you by swell a liquid reaking protocol in the issue of the ru liquid reaking token now if you're a listener of bker if you know that I am just so fascinated by reaking and liquid reaking I think it is going to be one of the most important Trends in ethereum and I am really excited for the benefit that it unlocks both users and also ethereum the protocol itself now disclaimer whenever there's yield involved in a

product do your own research this is not Financial advice you guys know the drill but swell is a great team they have a non-custodial product and they are mission driven on giving you the best liquid staking experience if you take one benefit away from using liquid reaking make it be Capital efficiency now you can earn passive yield from ethereum you can earn yield from multiple actively validated services that stack on top of that and then you can still use our S as collateral in D5 and because I know y'all are a bunch of Deens there's a points angle here as well but in swell we call them pearls so pearls equal points and if you stake your e with swell you can earn pearls and future IG layer rewards when there's a token generation event you can swap your curls for swell tokens head over

click the link at the bottom of this episode again just pause what you're doing right now go click the link at the bottom of this episode check out swell than you later hey everyone want to give a quick shout out to this episode sponsor flood protocol the optimal decks aggregator now flood is the perfect partner for this episode on the multi-chain future because flood is solving so many of the issues that we're going to be talking about this season and this is relevant for both Traders and devs so if you are a Trader you should definitely head over to flood Swap and start trading because they solve three Mass problems one gasless trading no more pesky trading fees two you don't have to worry about getting front run me free and then three they have excellent order routing so that you know that you are getting the best price

so head over to flood Swap and click the link in the bottom of the show notes we're going to send you right there for the devs out there you can leverage floods flexible hooks allowing you to make swapping a first class primitive by adding custom order types like t- wops or if you're a wallet Builder or something like that you can actually build your own orderflow auction in and start recapturing a bunch of that me if you want to reach out to them go to devs flood. bbid or just jump right in the Discord all right guys thanks very much appreciate you flood want want to get your guys uh or maybe talk a little bit about um uh jeto here for a second as well um so just as a disclaimer I've actually got a small bag of jeto myself uh have been a Lucas Buffalo and jeto

stand for a long time they had a they had a pretty big announcement this week that they ended the mempool um function so as a reminder jto actually started as an me Product pretty sure they actually started with meols uh and then they bolted on a liquid staking product there there's a really interesting intersection between Mev and liquid staking that we actually did an entire podcast on U I go back and listen to old bellur with Lucas and Xavier who's the xci at course one but um the reason that they stopped doing it was because so one of the differences between salana and ethereum is that there's no meol in salana transac s just automatically get broadcast to the leader um block times

are much much shorter the whole protocol is kind of optimized around making shorter and shorter block times um you get four blocks as the leader in salana um you kind of build those continuously and then that's it uh what jto was doing is they had this sort of private menol uh that could run as a side car with a salon of validators and it extended the latency by about 200 milliseconds uh but it acted like a me poool does in ethereum right so in ethereum there's a public M Pool I mean it's less relevant today than it used to be there's a lot of sours of private order flow but you know every transaction sort of get submitted to this this public M Pool you know different it's really Builders today that will build these blocks that are optimized for the amount of Meb that

you can extract that gets passed on through relays to a proposer the um the downside of that is that there's obviously been a lot of to be honest like mcoin and shitcoin trading on salana a lot of it happens through these telegram Bots with retail users that don't understand slippage and stuff like that and what was starting to happen in these GTO M Pools was that uh users were just getting sandwiched to death um and BEC and because uh fees are so much lower in salana um they actually the amount that you can get sandwiched is even worse than it is in ethereum because fees are high on eth main chain and so there's some sort of calculation for Searchers and Builders over there

where like if it's under this amount then it's not really worth it for me to sandwich you anyway because you got to do a front run and a back run with salana because the fees are so cheap the incentive is to just Spam and try to get that front and back run slot and you can actually do it with much more specificity which just means that the users are getting sandwiched all that much harder and I I think yeah which is kind of funny um but the so honestly the the the team at um goto had to make a really difficult decision like do I do this for the good of the network and stop this because there was 100% going to be a cash cow for them um and they made like the really bold I think very uh forward-looking choice to not do that

um I don't know I like just as a Founder that's such a difficult thing to look at this like exploding product line that you have and just say I don't think this is a net good for the entire network and shut it down that just takes that takes balls of steel um and a lot of conviction and a really long time frame and long time Horizon on your company and your brand so yeah I just respect it overall um I think it's a I mean I know you guys are investors in goo as well but I just I respect it we ALS we also have jeto bags I mean yeah they're I think of them as the canonical like salana project like just like an extension of like toally in the foundation and and you know Kyle is also an investor for multicoin um so they're

so ecosystem aligned and frankly they chewed glass when Salon was $8 and now it's at $170 and you know they're kind of still doing the same thing and they're doing what's best for the network which is very different than what's best for eth it's a different kind of scenario uh I also think the other part of this is what they've built is so technically complex that obviously someone else could build you know a way to kind of reintegrate sandwiches and maybe they will um but at this point jeto is the largest liquid staking protocol on salana and they're growing like a weed um so there's just like like a virtuous cycle that's at play here um and yeah I mean I I wouldn't expect those guys to do anything different

honestly right here's why I find this super interesting as well just from an experiment like one of the reasons why I like that there are multiple chains outside of just ethereum is it's kind of like run every experiment and the philosophical attitude on eth around Mev like Mev is probably the thorniest problem in all of crypto right it's just really really difficult like I view Mev existing on a on a spectrum of like frankly private order flow to like users getting screwed I mean like everyone sort of aligns somewhere on this spectrum it's really really difficult to escape that because you know if you sort of rewind to the early days of the way that Mev was getting thought out on eth really forward looking people like Phil Dian of flash Bots realized that hey ethereum we're permissionless we're open

we're public all of that stuff that's great right you don't have these uh make believe barriers to entry that you do and trafy for who can be a market maker and who can trade and all that stuff the downside of that though is that when all these transactions just get submitted to this public mempool anyone can see and there will be really sophisticated actors that like front run you um and users end up getting kind of screwed and the you know the ethereum um I think for a lot of really good logic they I think ethereum adopted basically an accelerationist view of Mev they said unless we want to do private order flow and unless we want to do this collocation [ __ ] that happens in which we do not want um we are just going to accept that users for now are

getting the raw end of the stick they the original solve for like these um sort of PVP I forget like price whatever that happened in the early days with they they created Mev boost which is this offchain auction sort of um uh side car that ethereum proposers would run they did a lot of this bidding offchain um and they returned those funds to the proposer so that was like step one that's a little bit better right it's not just these Searchers that are like raking in profits users are still getting screwed but at least you're turning it to the proposer now the next step on that is eth a lot of you're taking those funds away from the proposer and actually returning them to users so this is what's happening on the application Level in ethereum right now

and salana is taking the opposite perspective to that they are saying we actually want to put the user first if you listen to a lot of the people in Solana like this was a philosophical Mission driven statement where they found that trade off unappealing now the problem is that is they're going to have to deal with Spam and all these other really unfortunate like thr consequences that the ethereum people saw way out ahead of time and they were trying to avoid so it's a big question mark in terms of how they're going to mitigate these unfortunate um external consequences of this but they're just taking a super different path and I'm rooting for them I hope it works it might be the right path I don't know um but if anyone can figure it out it'll be the jeto guys so yeah pulling for them

yeah I think it'll be interesting to see I mean there's going to be so many things that uh they build on top of salana staket you know reaking potentially um it is just like this it's kind of like Lio and Flash Bots combined on eth um and I guess it kind of fits with the whole monolithic thesis of you know they've just kind of vertically built and integrated all these components um so it's going to be cool to see how they keep jugging along but I I think jto is just be a salon of Juggernaut for you know as long as that team is just chewing glass which seems like it'll probably be forever MH and if I'll I'll sh a resource that is the

combination of jeto and Ellipsis um Eugene over Ellipsis and Lucas will write these pieces on umber research so if you want to stay up to date with M happenings on salana I would recommend that it's a a resource for for everyone um last I I want to get your guys take on like we we were talking about this a little bit about meme coins so Vance I was interested to hear you say like I had like some uh I mean this is just such a funny like debate on Twitter you either got some people that are like oh you know these are the worst things ever and it's like horrible for the ecosystem then you've got other people being like Boomer take bro meme coins are [ __ ] great and I like I feel like there's a nice Middle Ground to be had on these

things but I was interested to hear that you you said like every L2 has a meme coin strategy so you what do you guys what do you guys make this phenomenal I mean Avalanche also said they're going to like buy mem coins on the market from the foundation like everyone has invested interest in bringing meme coin to their chain and so meme coins will naturally manifest on their chain um the thing that's interesting about meme coins and why ethereum L1 had a strangle hold on them for so long is if you want to make a mem coin multi-billion on chain you need a lot of capital sitting on that chain that's like ready to buy things and like the canonical example example is like the eth Pepe pair you know like you have a ton of eth on chain people are willing to use it okay eth

swaps to Pepe Pepe market cap goes up and now like just like an experiment could meme coins happen when salana on salana when salana was 8ll no not enough Capital to make something multi-billion if salana is only like you know 10 or 20 billion at that point now it's different and so I think what the prognosis for L2 meme coin season is is like either people start I I personally think it's going to be eth because all these to all these l2s are basically giving their tokens out to get people to bridge look at blast look at arbitrum look at optimism so you pull the eth onto your chain and people are used to using eth they're used to speculating with it um that's going to be the native Capital base that causes these things to go up

and so it's like bullish eth because the eth is transferring it's also bullish eth because those transaction fees are now being generated on the cell to um but I think that's kind of what you're going to see is like a very intentional coin strategy that's powered by eth because it's the biggest asset there's 100 billion in defi um I think the less likely path is the tokens of these uh the native tokens of these l2s are what's used for speculation because again if you think about it like let's say you're an new2 one of the thousands is launching you have to a get people to accept your token as money B you have to get your token high enough where it can use be used to speculate and like make these meme coins go up so like let's just say an now2 launches that two

billion let's say the float is 10% you there's 200 million of capital there that 200 million of capital can't make a meme coin go up not not not to three billion which is what with with had is on today so um it'll be e Centric the asset of eth will be used um and I think you're going to see uh it's not an accident that these things pop up and they're very easy to engineer because there's literally no app behind them and they're very creative to the ecosystem so you kind of have all the in incentives in in place yeah the mental model I have for them is these are the equivalent and not the same and they so many different way reasons why but the equivalent of what nfts were last cycle where you have you know speculative fervor you have you

know really easy to launch these things it's not it's not that hard to put together you know an app uh around them or or like an ecosystem around them uh you know they're they're funny there's like misspelled uh politicians is now the new Vibe and I think the other thing that uh you know is really interesting is there's literally markets where people are betting on how long these ecosystems will last and we're not talking about like months or quarters or years it's like literally hours and like when is everyone going to collectively decide that it's over and then move on to the next one but it's that movement it's that transition that I think is going to drive activity onto these platforms to advance this point like you don't want to just be sitting

there and and earning you know your 5% yield on on state deep if you could be going and jumping in and trading and making 500x on you know a 100 bucks um and so I think that that is what drives consumers in speculation has always been a feature not a bug but it is going to be the next uh it is the next kind of like craze that I think is going to draw a ton of people in the cycle it feels like meme coins have kind of taken the place of nfts this cycle to some extent um you know a way to turn $100 into $1,000 if you're lucky but uh it's just a or or a $100 into a million dollars because there are a couple people who who do that like wh

was at one cent once um and there's always a market for for a lottery ticket uh but yeah I mean I don't think it's a negative thing like Michael and I used to punt new coins back in the day like we we would never tell anybody not to do that I just think it's a little cringe when people try to take it to that next philosophical level of like you know I am George Soros of meme coins or like this is like a philosophical slsp spiritual experiment it's not you're just making money that's okay too I don't care free country do what you want dude I feel exactly the same way about that like I feel you know I look at these people on both sides of this where they're like these are the worst things ever it's like you got to lighten up buddy but I also look at these like

there was one thread I saw it was like a 10 thread thing on like why meme coins are so points like stop just stop it they're just they can be just fun that that is what kills meme coins also is you take too serious that's what kills meme coins is you take it too seriously yeah I yeah like remember when shib was gonna l n to it's like don't try to add utility to this thing this thing is just this thing j Jason calanis Aaron Levy and Ben McKenzie are just so Furious right now watching all of this happen I know jcal yeah I feel I keep tweeting I almost deleted my tweets cuz I'm like I don't know if this is going to do anything but it's just like come on dude like don't I would love to see your

early stage AI bags and like you're poting atto calling it ridiculous like okay dude I was listening to a podcast with him he's like I make 700 Angel Investments a year you make seven you make two a day not counting weekends what you talking that's how many of them do you actually know the name of yeah dude 700 Investments a year it's pretty wild been for 10 years he's got 7,000 Investments he's got an investment criteria as good as Swiss cheese I mean ran prey good luck yeah yeah well I don't know I think that take that he has about pivoting to AI I mean I'm

obviously biased but I think it's GNA age like milk and although it has been funny it's like you can see that like AI any basically anything that's attached to AI in like Trad world it's just getting bit up right now and I feel like like near I don't know if you guys have been like I I don't really know how to interpret this but yeah near hasn't moved in you know forever and all of a sudden everyone sort of woke up and realized that Ilia actually is like a real guy in the world of AI and he did this I guess he did a conference or like a talk or something with Jensen Wang from which is which is why it pumped like right it's like up 100% yeah I think Express this before but like we own tokens to rough we own tokens that are not Bitcoin and East to

roughly Trend the market and what we play for is like the three to four weeks a year where they Rite and I think that's like a pretty decent framework for thinking about things like near where you know you had this amazing you know three or four I don't know how much it went up Pump uh but you're still probably underperforming eth or or like kind of roughly in in you know in kind of neck and neck with it but we'll see I mean my sense of the AI stuff is that it's kind of starting to fade a little bit um I was with Michael and I were both with a bunch of LPS this week the sentiment was like the people who were doing the AI deals are [ __ ] idiots and it's been what you know maybe

24 months or 18 months since chat PT launched I mean either of you use it every day I certainly don't um the I mean and I think that this is the case even for Founders in the space like some of our portfolio Founders who I've talking to it's like they expect that it's going to be years for applications to actually develop granted this is like the speculative firmer that feror that drives adoption on the infrastructure side in terms of just getting capital investment but nobody knows who's going to be the winner who's going to be the category you know how the value chain actually works like nobody has any idea about it it is like um let's throw money darts at these opportunities and see if any of them hit

a bull's eye but we have no idea when or how or if they will like that's that's where we're at right right now and I I think ultimately it it will be a good time to invest just as you know their 2018 cycle was a good time to even look at alt layer ones um but I do think nobody has any idea how it's going to work out and if they pretend to be able to have a thesis around it they're absolutely wrong yeah and like throwing throwing money darts is the job uh and being early is the job um but I think where like and we're investing in crypto AI stuff because you know the might be a little fuzzy but like there's good entrepreneurs and you kind of got to give them a ball and hope that it works um obviously within bounds of reason I

think where people are getting more negative on it is uh like the open AI round at 90 billion the anthropic round at 40 Bill like who knows if these are going to be the winners um and it looks like none of them are profitable and it's like not really even close I my pie is actually why there's a you know AI boom and and yes like the the one I would say shining element of the AI uh fervor right now the crypto X AI is the quality of the entrepreneurs coming in we've got Google deepline people coming in we've got Founders who've been working in AI for the last three four years who actually understand this stuff giving them the ball and letting them try to you know figure things out is kind of where we

are in in the stage and they you know the smartest ones are already like hey we don't know exactly what's going to happen but we're going to stick handle our way through it as we go and and that's you know how we're approaching it but I my thesis around why AI tokens right now are getting you know some boom is because there are very few places to speculate on AI in an open market Y and you can buy Nvidia you can buy Microsoft you know trillion doll companies or you can go off and buy you know billion dollar less than billion dollar assets that are working on AI when you know you to your point bance a 90 billion open open AI round and a 40 billion anthropic round are some of the benchmarks of where these things could go if they rate

eventually and so yeah my my my point is I think people are just thinking like I need exposure to AI how do I get it by the way one of one of my rules of thumb for crypto markets is that uh it's hard for coins that are not bigcoin or E to sustain above a 100 million FTV for for whatever reason that's kind of where salana peaked and Luna peaked and I think Avalanche probably got close but World coins right there yeah yeah these things have seasons you know and like I was I was talking with someone today or maybe yesterday and they were like dude meme coins meme coins meme coins like meme coins and I

was like do you even remember the last narrative or the one before that they're like I can't even remember what that was okay I have a question for you guys so I mean you guys were super active during D5 summer I was not very active during D5 summer but I go I sometimes go back and listening to old pods and I heard this like d dgen Spartan one on Uncommon Core which is worth a listen because he was like super active during that period of time and like you said like one of the things that like tipped him off that uh def5 summer was coming to an end is that the amount of like new Farms that would spring up like the life cycle get shorter and shorter every time it was like you used to be able to farm it was like you had a week then you had

a couple days then it was like a day and it was like a couple hours and you had to be out before it just collapsed and I feel like the the acceleration of New Meme coins is just getting really high right now and just I don't know if there's an analog there but there is there always it's it's what we do it's what we do we burn too hot it's crypto yeah ultimately something something just gets too hot and goes poof there someone demand and then because this especially mem coins cost no money or time to ship we meet it with Supply and this is true for anything like remember all the unit swap clones Sushi and Trader Joe and c and like sure there's room for four but like

we literally had 400 and that affects the valuation of the biggest one too because when they all start to fade then people are like is the category unworkable and if you don't have fundamentals it's like the category doesn't even exist really so I think there is some truth to that um and I think you're going to see probably some of that in re taking especially with the abss um where the ABS quality will be the initial kind of determiner of like which Farm stick around but then it's just going to be like hundreds of abss launching and how do you even tell and you know the category kind of starts to look a little like wonky um but I saw I was watching some person get rugged on a

meme coin yesterday uh the Swifty meme coin on salana where it like literally pumped like 100x like had this like perfect engulfing candle and then went down 95% within like two hours so I think I think uh the timing of these is getting faster that's kind of undeniable totally yeah and they're they're fun but like people I guess like the one the one thing where I can actually see uh meme coins not being super great is uh this people who are in the know understand that this is a game of musical chairs they're like I'm having fun like I'm going to toss some money into this and sort of gamble like I don't know when retail really does end up coming like they don't understand as much um and actually this was like a big argument in the block work slack this

week about well I understand that like Joe Gio Bowden isn't the future of Finance but it's like but people knew that about Doge and people still like you know you hear these stories about people like yoloing their life savings into Doge and I I don't know because I I hate the paternalistic like we should protect retail like that sucks too I think there is some survival bias you remember shib and Doge because they're still worth a lot you probably don't remember safe Moon which for noi aped into it literally the top and then went actually 99% down that's hysterical posting Joe Bowden videos today yeah so yeah I don't I don't care make money on me points like do your thing

100x leverage like knock yourself out but just understand that if you if something happens like no one's coming to save you that's that's the deal you make speak speaking of Doge did you see the uh the leaked video from from Elon talking about how he eventually wants to implement Doge payments for Tesla oh my God this clown is back the cycle the cycle returns also the long the Long Knives are out for musk like I don't know if you've seen the Tesla chart and all the negative press coverage and you know people are coming from on Trump donations now like it feels like we just locked arms and we're like time to cancel this man

yeah I don't want him to be canceled but he's kind of in trouble here yep I've noticed the Tesla chart going down I don't have a great explanation other than Ai and Nvidia but like like it got clipped for 5% today you don't really see things go down five like man this this is a brutal looking chart yeah I mean yeah 5% today that's quite a bit it was pretty invincible for such a long time I mean I I remember like it was right when I moved to New York so it was like 2016 or 2017 um I uh was having drinks with his family friend and you

know she was mentioning she worked at Jim chs's fund and you know he had this famous like short fund which I guess he closed up last year but he but she was saying like their biggest position was short Tesla like that guy just clber clawbert uh must I mean I'm sure he closed it out at some point but I mean that was one of the most popular uh you know mid curve trades in 20 13 14 16 17 like that that short Tesla was the trade that everybody who you know thought of themsel as being you know really intelligent about the market there's no way they're going to be able to deliver the number of cars they're there's no way they're going to hit profitability like car companies can't do this like he he beat them back with the stick now I think it's this is like to to Vance's

point this build is like a larger kind of swath that's coming in and it feels like governmental in in the sense that it's you know the ruling against his pay package the it's you know he he literally came out and said if I own you know a certain percentage if I don't own a certain percentage and basically have control voting control over this company I don't feel comfortable having AI live within this company and and you know that was a big negative and you know him getting him not getting invited to the electric car Symposium even though he's the largest producer of electric cars way just P there so many things but I mean this is worth calling out and I think this is really different from the

last cycle so you know covid hits that's the co low right there that's 2850 then it kind of ranges around 130 around the end of October when things getting get really bullish chonos probably gets blown out around here and then it rallies to 400 yeah and then we're still at 162 this is down more than like eth this down way more like that is a major regime regime shift where he was on SNL he was pumping Doge he was you know pumping Tesla whatever but like he's getting clobber it's really it's really interesting that he's not like riding this

wave dude I think the pay package thing is so messed up I just I understand I know that there's like a legal argument I get it I get it I just no other SE legal a legal argument for a guy who owned nine shares of the company nine shares I just it's such I no other CEO Fortune 500 CEO or probably any other CEO would take the pay package that he got offered it was all up it was all like UNG gameable comps and he took no fixed salary I just there's no one else that would have taken that I thought it was super shareholder aligned I think it's ridiculous so here's here's my favorite stat here's my favorite stat um 65 billion do worth of Tesla stock is supposedly set to be returned to the

company do you know how much the payment uh request from the lawyers who were on the plaintiff side was five billion five billion doll I saw that are you kidding me that's messed up oh yeah we we beat him in t we'll take our 10% please actually we'll cut it down to eight I do think this Elon not participating in this run means something I'm not sure what it means though yeah my my guess is it means he comes back bigger I mean we're yeah we're we're we still got the biggest potentially you know the biggest opportunity company for him has yet to

really kind of go public launch Etc start SpaceX th this is kind of like the Trump thing where people are like oo $350 million judgment he's gonna have to sell some buildings he's gonna have to like you know downsize his house it's like his back Shares are worth $4 billion it's a fictional company that doesn't exist it's it's apparently going to merge with TR so like he's gonna be okay and yeah I think I think to fade Elon here is probably a poor idea but it does mean something that like he's not participating in this yeah can I ask you guys a question diverting from Elon for a second so I saw this uh tweet you know from Naval that just made me he's like the narrative is this cycle is the last

cycle and this is around the time when people start saying stuff I feel like where I've seen some takes like there's the classic like it ETFs put Bitcoin in a league of its own this is different like you know we've never had this Bitcoin buying and I actually there's something to that I think but this is around the time where people start questioning like is this cycle going to be like every other cycle is it going to be different like I I feel like there are some ways that at least to me it feels a little bit tangibly different like I feel differently than I did the last time crypto broke out from its last alltime High I I remember exactly how I felt I felt like a electric shock uh and and if you actually look at the price chart like it when it broke through like it

almost doubled in the last in the month after that do you guys what what are your thoughts on all of this sort of discussion like is it different this time is it roughly gonna play out the same so start with the only thing that people are people are the only thing that people are worse remembering at than how things happened is how they felt about how things happened so I would I would kind of question whether you actually felt like that because you probably didn't own a ton of Bitcoin no and eth took another year to break out and it kind of like lagged for a long time like for me the all-time highs were in q1 of 2021 that's when it was like holy [ __ ] like we're 3x up from the old alltime high the the Bitcoin one

was more like turning on the lights again IND is not going to die um but it does feel feel different and I do think there is some truth to the last cycle idea where it probably is the final cycle of 10x gains for the majors like if you're longing eth in two years from 10,000 to get to 100,000 that's a very different industry in play it's like probably driven mostly by institutions I think like how we think about it is you know our next fund is probably not going to be buying like massive amounts of Bitcoin and E at the highs um like we'll probably have some allocation to that but like the game will change to hopefully D5 value plays

and games that are bringing in massive amounts of users and other things that are generating real economic value um those assets will kind of graduate the Ethan Bitcoins of the world to like the 41k the raas the the trafy kind of complex so I think there is some truth to it but the Cycles always continued they're just always different to your point the game changes so fully agree with all that the the other thing I'd add is I mean it'll look and feel the same like we're going to go through the same emotional cycle it's just going to happen for different reasons this time one of the reasons why I think this fundamentally could be different is because the institutions are here finally and we have that with the ETF we have that with Larry thinkink um but I'd

say even more so we're going to start to see that with regulations and changes in legislature um Vance actually shared this with me but uh yesterday we were looking at the Roosevelt Institute publishing a uh report basically saying that we need to be able to move uh in the direction of positive regulations for this for this industry Roosevelt Institute is a pretty left leaning um institution and no connection and and they explicitly called out no um funding from the digital asset Community whatsoever but they were kind of the first major Think Tank to publish we need to move in the direction of uh positive regulation no more Court battles we can't let this get to the

Supreme Court like it could you know they say leave a whole in Securities Law and so I think we're actually going to see like pretty sensible regulation that becomes bipartisan um you know depending on how everything turns out in November in this next election cycle I think we're going to see a lot of movement and once that happens then it's not just Larry think that's coming in off the sidelines and jumping into the industry for Bitcoin it's actually every financial institution because they they then have a playbook for how to operate and integrate into this industry and and so that I think is probably the most likely outcome for how this becomes the last cycle how we get you know more than a 10x from here but that that I think you know is kind of the the variable that frankly has never even been

possible uh in any previous cycle so I it's going to be it's going to be long and it's going to be uh positive for a while but but I think that's going to be the variable that dictates how you know permanent the cycle is yeah I agree with all that I one thing that I would like push back on pretty strongly is actually some of my favorite new entrance to this cycle have been uh Eric balunis and James safeer over at Bloomberg I think those guy it's awesome to like watch them get to like the this stage in their journey I but where I'm going to push back on both of them and if you guys are listening an enormous amount of respect for both of you but like where I Just Disagree is this like attitude that I feel like this is the third time I've seen it out in

Forest like it's only going to be Bitcoin like Bitcoin is the thing that's going to cross the chasm and none of this other stuff is I just I've just seen that disproven so many times it feels very unlikely to me that people would like do well on their Bitcoin and then be like okay this is like all I'm gonna do I and and I think the other thing that people always underestimate is like okay I miss Bitcoin what's next like what's the next Bitcoin and like that driver for investors is so powerful I just I don't know I just I strongly disagree the idea every single Market happens the same way it starts with Bitcoin and then it goes to ethereum or alt layer ones and then it goes to altcoins it's happening the same time this time around it's just we're at Bitcoin right now

remember when all Fortune 500 companies were going to put Bitcoin on their balance sheet and we were going to go into this like an randan like pipe dream didn't happen all the coins participated so yeah yeah we do this every cycle yeah difference this cycle is that the flows are real in a way that they weren't you you know like the all the Tesla all the Bitcoin that Tesla bought is like two days of inflows at this rate um but it's it's funny and I I noticed this like [ __ ] if you told me there was going to be a billion dollars of inflows every single day I'd be like Bitcoin is it 100K easily but it's kind of just like chugging along and that's what drives

people to do eth and all l1s and allins and like even Matt Hogan the CIO of bitwise had to put out this kind of weird Twitter Thread about like don't worry alt season doesn't mean that like Bitcoin isn't like the only at it's like dude this is going to happen with or without you so it's just kind of the same thing repeats well I can't speak to Matt's perspective on this specifically but even just like in talking to I've like you know we've got London coming up in next week uh and I've been my last three weeks have been like all these prep panel calls with like all these people like a lot of the ETF issuers a lot of the people that work at Banks like I can tell you unanimously behind the scenes

the question like a lot of what's going to come up at this conference it's like okay Bitcoin is great what's next and like it was zero out of like 90 people that I talked to that was like yeah Bitcoin is the only thing it's just I don't know I was willing to my entire reputation on this yeah I just yeah I feel crypto asset yeah Bitcoin like sent Michael that video last night and always always funny to look at it's always relevant it's just Bitcoin is not the only thing in this universe I gotta go J yeah yeah all right all right we can end to here fellas all right cheers guys hey everyone Mike here if you're a bell curve listener you know that transferring assets across chains can be a massive pain I certainly do I complain

about it on this program all the time that is why we are incredibly excited to have teamed up with the Wormhole Foundation the stewards of the Wormhole protocol and the coolest part about this particular partnership is that they have made custom bell curve FS which you can get and mint for free click the link at the bottom of this episode take you get your free [Music] nft