DeFi Summer 2.0 Breakthrough with Smokey the Bera

Transcript

I don't know if I was bribed or I was extorted it was like it might have been a bit of both really is this like a new idea where if you're not returning the value back to apps or back to the users through the apps that that you're not going to get traction like is this a new idea there's so many different ways for someone to enter the system so many different angles to attack it from you could effectively incentivize emissions to a pool two with the lp token of another Pool welcome back to the rollup your home for technical talks and open conversations that shape the modular future nothing on today's show is to be construed as Financial advice you can see our full disclosures list at the roll up.co Ventures sit back relax and enjoy today's episode after a quick word from some of our awesome

Partners Redstone modular oracles are available on 50 plus chains trusted by over 100 clients and over 6 billion in total value secured visit redstone. Finance to find out more all right Smokey we are in Denver eth Denver oh yeah the Chain's real now Chain's real [ __ ] the first e Denver when the Chain's real incredible man it's uh I'm still like expecting to show up to to different events and just be like what the [ __ ] man like why'd you make it real yeah just you know see uh See the the smiles and the the crying and etc etc yeah how was your Q5 overall I mean hey q5's been like decent so far man I mean um I think that it's been kind of

interesting to see the ecosystem just starting to take life and there's there's the kind of interesting part about having built for as long as we did before which is like we also we have both the uh I guess robustness of a pre- chain ecosystem that like you know I think Rivals some ones that have been live for a while and the politics and the baggage that comes with it as well which is quite interesting right and then like you know toen like token's live people have have different opinions of course people have opinions on who should get water who shouldn't get what etc etc um and I think that way you get to see very quickly are the people who are very like longterm oriented and who were like yep like we're riding or dying for this or people who are like just there to kind of start [ __ ] and and you

know catch a hype wave so I think that that has been another interesting thing to study just from like a social dynamics point of view yeah I mean you guys well the numbers don't lie you guys passed arbitrum I believe and I think other l2s in tvl yeah yeah 3.5 3.8 billion 3.5 3.6 I I don't like I I think some of the numbers are still lagging on Def Lama but yeah man like the inflows have been great um you know non-trivial portion of that came from boyco but I believe that uh post launch still about a billion in change is you know son that um and you know under these market conditions I'm like definitely not mad about that in the slightest um so we've just kind of been like running at full speed um doing our best to make sure that the application

ecosystem continues thriving um and I think what's kind of cool is to see like some of these apps breaking into their own classes per se like I didn't realize this until more recently but dude like um like dolom might's a top 10 lending Market by tvall right now and I've been yelling all over Twitter about how they have better borrow rates on like Majors than you actually get on Oiler ET made that which I think is just really cool just like from a growth point of view um you know the the Kodiak guys and the infrared guys are each you know sort of top five within their categories uh from just a tvl and actual usage perspective so lsts and dex's um respectively and then we're just starting to see funky new stuff pop up more and more that I'm just excited to see rolling right like the bur bear guys

Goldilocks doing some pretty interesting new stuff with yield swaps um the barabar guys taking a new take on on sort of uh I guess CD protocols I think we're just we're starting to see the start of it um and then we're also getting to see I think some of the social layer stuff coming out and uh those things that'll look a little bit like games then might actually have more intricate Financial mechanisms yeah so I mean like it is it's it's like that slow Big Bang moment uh in that I think the market itself has been a little bit like you know starved of oxygen so while it's not like the like you know 300 things happening at once I think it's a lot more of a set of controlled small explosions that that we like to see yeah and I think like the core premise here

is this like symbiotic relationship between the apps and the chain itself yeah um and I think that's that is going to bring this like kind of flywheel as you've already seen it in barah and you know bar and bgt that that we'll see that kind of it reminds me of defi summer like it reminds me like when like like the yields there were so good and on the first day and like there were so many opportunities but one thing that I'd kind of like to get your perspective on and I like to talk about kind of like like the entire ecosystem but the pre Vault or the pre- deposit vaults were there was some sort of like kind of confusion there or kind of like different opportunity set than depositing on day one um what like what

what was like the trade-off yeah was it trade-off and like what was your reflection and would you recommend other builders to to do predeposit vaults yeah uh I think that a lot of it is circumstantial um but also a lot of it is depending on what you're you're shooting for right um I think that for us basically the predeposit vaults versus depositing on Main net sort of gave you a couple different sets of preferences uh depositing on Main net right now is pretty vanilla in that like the only way that you earn bgt uh and notably bgt is by providing liquidity on the decks right uh and as full P rolls out in the very near future I.E the next couple of weeks um that's where we'll actually see you know the ability to deposit into different thirdparty protocols which are then approved by governance and have almost any action on

the chain that results in a stable token actually being um you know a recipient of that bgt uh the predeposit vaults on the other hand gave you I'd say a lot more specificity in terms of how you'd want your Capital to be put to work so not just farming or not just in the decks but might be single-sided LPS U might be used as collateral for a CDP Etc might be deployed into sort of more um I'd say actively managed Vault protocols Etc um but you're getting rewarded in liquid Bea right and that goes one of two ways it's like okay do you want to go long on the governance SL emissions token of the system that actually sort of controls incentives uh and becomes I'd say more of a compounding force over time or do you want to exposure to liquid token and perhaps the more vanilla form right um

so I think it allows people to to sort of choose their exposure um to answer the second part of your question is like would I recommend it for people uh I think net yes but I think it's also like it's it's it's a gift and a curse in that one could say okay well would that take away from volumes that float into the chain right but at the same time I think there ends up being a lot of theory crafting which is to say Okay if that volume didn't flow into the chain fast enough would scare off WEA volume Etc right or if it flowed too fast that mean that you just have a massive pullback you know what I mean um I think that right now it strikes me as something that is net positive because on one hand sometimes conversations start in the same way that you did of

saying hey like you guys just passed arbitr and base and that in itself can be a little bit of like a a starting point that and then the conversation becomes okay like what is this TV all doing and how are you actually getting the most value out of it and that that's a part of the equation that we're at now which is to say cool how do we think about not having the blast slmta effect um how do we think about having that be more like you know sticky and and and engraved over time and enshrined and that's actually what po does right it's like hey these teams started by working with us on incentives and actually effectively having um their deposits subsidized to some extent by the chain as part of that launch program well the you know natural extension that our next step is to find ways to use their own

token incentives Etc to keep that liquidity productive and living on the Chain right because once People starts then the validators basically can choose their the validators get to have this other this like Game Theory going on as well while there's while so the really interesting thing here is that every participant is playing their own kind of game with their own beliefs and their own risk tolerances right so like validators can can optimize to earn more Bara they can optimize for bgt they they can optimize for honey for other tokens um if you're a user and or an application you can also kind of optimize for different like streams and and basically if you're if you're more bullish on one thing or if you want to have less risk than others you can kind of optimize your entire setup to to have

that and that's this like this game theoretical component I think makes people who are active in defi summer like excited again like I think that's the niche that you've catered to well um that I think was really yearning for for for that experience yeah I I I think it was the founder of Atari that said what what makes a good game it's one that's easy to play but very difficult to master and I I I think you guys have done that particularly well because there's so many different ways for someone to enter the system so many different angles to attack it from but to really really Master it is quite difficult because you have a lot of moving parts and so that makes a very fun game totally I think like that was sort of the the whole premise right it's you know there's there's someone I think um one of the

guys from hashkey Once wrote an article like maybe a year ago now and he was calling it like a playground for infinite e economic games and I was like that's a pretty cool like tagline of sorts right um and I think it's true because people can very much subscribe to their own like you said risk tolerances and outcomes you can have a validator that chooses to basically only direct admissions and therefore receive incentives from like super low caps that are effectively Venture bets right and say cool like we're going to take a bunch of floaters of these protocols that are at like $510 million market caps that have gotten you know reward vaults Etc um and hope that they make it right uh and then if they do they you know benefit massively if they don't they you know they flame out and they've only just gotten their their Baseline

yields right on the other hand you could have groups that operate a little bit more like ETFs that are focused on Blue Chips and say hey we're going to take all the you know commissions or all the incentives that we get and we're just going to convert it into Bara or eth or Bitcoin or whatever that might be um and then you have other groups that might go like super low risk and be like all we're going to do is take emissions and and take incentives in the form of stable coins right um and you can also sort of see this if you if you look across um you know different uh sort of like incentive or bribing type mechanisms across like defi um most commonly just applied at like the Dex level right but um you'll often see one of two things either people are taking

incentives in the form of like usdc if they're just super riskof or they're taking some wacky longtail [ __ ] that no one token um and then you know I think that the the funky thing is there's like so many degrees of freedom in terms of what one can do there like you could theoretically incentivize you know you could effectively incentivize emissions to a pool two with the lp token of another Pool you know what I mean like you can do weird stacking [ __ ] if you want to um so think it's kind of like Robbie was saying right like you can you can choose to play your own game uh and that's a gift and a curse in that on one hand if that's too complex people will be like man what the [ __ ] are all these moving Parts turned off by it right yeah

like I'm going to check the [ __ ] out right um and that's why I think a lot of the work that we have and a lot of the things that um keep me up right now are basically just simplifying the product making things more oneclick so it's like okay cool like I have this token I want to end up earning bgt you know what is the simplest way for me to do that um and then I think also protocols in the chain are making that easier like infrared is doing a great job of this I think DOL might will do a great job of this a lot of these like oneclick type Solutions um even groups that just like really focus on the ux like Barett toown for example um which has built like both like a really good mobile app um and just sort of a web app as well that

shows all these like core components of the ecosystem whether that be the swaps or the staking or you know some of the daps I've mentioned Etc um where there's just more and more rolling out per day um and then there's also people who are building tools that are almost specifically intended to bring things into the bear chain ecosystem easily so like there's the Shogun guys who I'm sure you guys are familiar with right like you know hanging out with them in Hong Kong guys are fun absolute Lads BM they're they're buying the BM mem coin they they're they're pumping the BM mem coin which I think is [ __ ] hilarious but their product like they're they're they're they're making it easy to go from evm salana anything to Barett right and that's why thing is awesome right even meing like the kaido airdrop they

like I like one of them posted like oh okay this is easy spot from kaido straight to straight to bar like [ __ ] like that yeah and like I think that like you know having those easy inflows and those like okay this is not a a hassle for me to you know get my tokens over here is really nice um I even think think about that from a bridging point of view it's been great working with the layer zero guys Etc um I think in general we've just been fortunate to have like a bunch of partners that are making our lives easier infinex I saw supported you guys I don't know if you bought a patreon if that's what it was the bribe was Kane's just bribing everybody bro k i I don't know if I was bribed or I was extorted it was like

might have been a bit of both but we really like those guys and I think they're they're I think Kane is one of a the few operators I've met who I can understand and could see cutting it in both web 2 and web 3 and has obviously built something massive with before and um I think understands like I I thought Kane was going to be more of a Fed before I met him and then I met him I'm like oh this guy like is down for some some clownery um and I think that this probably also brings back a little bit of the defi summer stuff that that he you know grew up on right um without putting words in his mouth but yeah I think that's that's you know started a great partnership between these teams and I think in general um improvements to ux will be uh you know outsize

valuable for us um because there's already more elements on the table to starts the burden to sort of like understand ucation and yeah exactly right so but I think what you guys have going for you is this uh again it comes back to this symbiotic relationship aocial layer and I'm curious how you've seen this play out right where like because the apps on the network and the validators and the chain while the apps are still going to be competitive by nature for for flows for liquidity for mind share it does seem like there's this baked in kind of more team kind of like this kind of like social layer collaborative feel like maybe like what's that been like so far far since main like how has how how has your technical design created a better

Community yeah it's a good question I I think we'll ultimately get to see this in the next couple of weeks with P because I think that's when like the the real games begin per se um I think that to date it's just meant that there's a lot of people you know talking to each other about how they can actually stack up uh and find ways to effectively be greater than the sum of their parts when P does go on so figuring on okay like how can we have protocol A's Reward Vault also pushing emissions so is there like little clicks forming like camps and Clans and [ __ ] I think there's definitely like you know there's always like subgroups with an ecosystem I don't think we've got to cabal stage yet because I think like we need like I think you just need more in

general to have actual cabals um but I think that we've got like you know you can see that for example like the Yeet guys and the barar drum guys and the Kodiak guys of like their liquidity Trifecta program and whatnot right and I'm sure that we'll see a bunch of people doing like funky like lever looping stuff with Dolomite right we're seeing the bar drum guys fing you know performing more of their own flywheels um we're seing guys who are coming from other ecosystems like concrete and Lombard Etc get more stuck in the Stak Zone team Etc so like I I think that that's actually perhaps the most interesting point which is to see how the ecosystem is receptive to or not uh to Outsiders if you will um and there's you know a couple of uh you know big entrance to the ecosystem that I I can't

quite disclose as of yet but I'm hoping to be able to disclose on Wednesday um that I think I hope will be well received and we want to make sure there's like people around the project who can can help like make it Lindy within the barain Eco because I think the the gift and the curse of a of a community like ours is that they're like a little bit tribal by nature and that's great because like tribes stick together but tribes can also reject people from outside worlds right so it's almost about being able to to lean on the folks who I think uh Curry the most social favor per se at times and be like yo like this is net value created for all of us if there is this you know source of inflow for stable coins or a source of inflow for differentiated bit Bitcoin

liquidity or whatever it might be um because from there you can really say okay like you know here's how this helps your bags and the collective if you will right so um I think so far we've seen the teams like all working together and being very supportive of each other uh even like sort of just like cross-chain cultural groups to some extent like the wasis did like a mint on Bara that sold out recently uh and like we think those guys are great and like very emblematic of like crypto native culture and also have like some pretty cool arts like you know [ __ ] with the vision over there um and then I think that we've also seen lots of teams supporting like different public launches um on like token launch pads on bar like um like Ramen so there's been at least three or four

different groups that have you know had successful launches there and all have their tokens trading in like low midate figures and just doing their thing sweet the predeposit vaults were one really great example of something that you know other Founders and and you know projects can learn from and look at that are looking to go live what what other advice would you have to to those in a similar position pre-t token pre- chain you know ultimately you know going live you know any advice or lessons to be learned yeah yeah um good question man uh I think that like no matter how meditated or how thought out the plans are you know something always is [ __ ] uh for example for us the morning of we were um we we had like a private safe instances right because as different teams were getting set up with those

predeposit vaults they needed to deploy their contracts before the chain was public um and we were basically migrating the uh the website or the UI I forget exactly it was now um from like uh uh from one domain to another and it just didn't work as then as they were migrating it it just like froze and they and you know basically our rpcs are not working and we could not access safe which is quite problematic because we had a bunch of funds in safe that we needed to use to fund the airdrop so for like the hour and a half before we're scrambling like on the on the call with their teams Etc being like okay can we try this can we try that um it's always a [ __ ] show to some extent and perhaps more so in our case than others um but I

also think that the launch one like relatively smoothly all things is considered definitely you know work to be done I think to actually answer your question um one thing is that I'd say that making sure that you have clear CS around like what the intent or what the breakdown of the airdrop is for and and what that really turns into is important uh and doing as much education as possible in the public sphere uh I think that you know people didn't like I I don't think that we did a good enough job of explaining like what the different portions Were Meant to do um I also think that with any large launch you have a bunch of angry test night users like I think that's just like unavoidable um but I also look back at it and I'm like we can actually very cleanly and and you know conly say say

that the vast majority of this airdrop went towards Builders users uh targeted experienced members of the ecosystem as opposed to people who are just trying to extract value and of course there's people who are trying to extract value within that group but they're there right um I think that other things that make sense is I think that especially early it can be very easy for both the team uh and uh and you know like us as Founders to spend time watching the charts and you know like there like I was saying as we got in here right there's a gift and a curse that in that on one hand if you're building an ecosystem there is some degree of responsibility there because uh if your ecosystem dips too hard uh like as in the the the token if you will um then that can also just be something that

holds back everything else for all the the the beta if you will are all the projects launching on the Chain um but if you spend your time watching the charts and ultimately doing things that you can't control like you know it's it's just it's as unproductive um so I think there's a matter of like separation of church and state where you have to be able to like sort of zoom out pull yourself away and be like okay like this is going to go up and this is going to go down I'm going to do my job and look in on this as needed um and focus on the fundamentals um and then I think that a very very important thing that we are just toning in on to the degree that I would like uh and often even has like you know conflicting viewpoints within a

team is figuring out what matters as in like what are the metrics that are important for you as a chain and why like where do they need to be perhaps from a benchmarking point of view and and what needs to be done to get them there and and really what are they right because some stuff is a little bit you know trickier to measure in terms of like net promoter score or like mind share like yes you can do kaido Ender cookie analysis Etc but it's by no means a precise science but the question is okay do you care about app layer Revenue do you care about the percent of your token that is sted do you care about the percent of your airdrop is you know what I mean that's sold like what are the things that determine success and then how do you work backwards from that

because otherwise I think that it's very easy to be moving in like five different directions at once uh and actually not advancing anything so that's like where we are right now I think that is the right way to think about is you you you think about okay what does success look like and that inverts it then by working backwards you can say okay you know picture that reality what are the steps that you know have to precede that and those are easier to accomplish so you know obviously there's a lot of factors but you know what is that North Star what is that success criteria yeah for sure man innovating Finance Global institutional and onchain deep liquidity to Drive Capital efficiency now maximize yields on institutional grade liquid staking with

M unlock trillion dollars of capital via F Bitcoin all of this secured by mantle treasury of billions in stables and E Capital Pools this entire ecosystem is coordinated by a vast network of seasoned BCS that are aiming to create the next generation of Banking and Financial technology this is mantle be chain is basically the first L1 that has a a token in the form of bgt that actually has value flowing to it from the application layer right that that application layer validator bgt interplay is incredibly important so on one hand a very um you know meaningful and valuable metric for us is the amount

of incentives or value being passed back to bgt Holders uh because at the end of the day that's actually value that's going back to the ecosystem as a whole and it's instead of this inflation just you know fleeing the e if you will there's almost an offset right so I think that's quite interesting because it actually gives people a reason to have bgt Beyond just the governance power um another one is really I think a lot about like you know a classic value term of like narrative violations and this is what like Keith RAR would just you know yell a bunch of times without much context um but like there's actually importance in that uh in that I think post token being Live Your Fate almost um I think has a greater a greater impact is more impacted by headlines and things that people would

not necessarily expect whether they be entirely nuanced or Not Right But for us as as bear chain I don't think a lot of people expect things that are more traditional or corporate in nature in many cases they expect the DJ D5 Paradise right um so actually think that being able to say hey like there's this thing coming up that one would not expect for example like if you realize that bear chain actually has either the I think at this point the highest it might be like you know 5 million off or something but the highest amount of PayPal USD on it apart from salana or like it's basically just past Lana the only original Source on e mainnet um but basically like we are becoming the home of P quite quickly um and we actually think there's like a massive uh you know I'd say web 2.5 deeper integration

e-commerce Etc set of rails that that can help power that people don't think about right now total narrative violation right cuz like you PayPal and bears like I think another one is the amount of institutional like basically farmers and investors that you guys either have now or like like I listen to the Pod with Vance and Mike and I'm sure van is is is heavily involved on chain now with his team and other investors are and then soon more will be and so I think like while like the narrative violation of like this defi DJ and onchain Retail kind of crowd but like I I would imagine throughout this year becomes also highly institutional oriented 100% like we've been in touch and or have been reached out to by different firms including like the groups that are like largest borrowers

of ethon a etc who are in many cases managing treasuries or institutional earn programs for other centralized exchanges hedge funds institutions in general um and you know they're seeing the opportunities on the horizon right um so I think that being able to to lean into those narrative violations a bit is interesting uh it's like okay don't lose the spirit don't sell out don't go corporate because I think that would be pretty lame um but also every now and then pop up with something that people are not expecting um at the same time I think a lot about like narrative affirmations um which is to say like you know at the end of the day if we also didn't have cool def5 [ __ ] people would be like the [ __ ] going on right so we got to do that as well um I think a lot

about the fundamentals in terms of like app layer Revenue right like how are the the apps on the Chain sustainable are they you know paying for their own bills per se um and there's a lot of different really good examples of that whether that be the the fees on Kodiak or for example ugaa when the uh basically the go-to aggregator and the ecosystem has done 250 mil of volume I think they had done like 100k in fees within the first couple of days um right so like those are very much like ramping um Dolomite I believe is at one point or is on rate to basically be able to you know fund a full years Runway just based on their their be borrowing like fees like so a lot of these things are are trending quite well directionally from a sustainability point of view um and then

I think a lot about like what actually end up being the the points that pull people into an ecosystem right you need breakout daps you need those things that become ubiquitous or become cycle defining um I think recently those have fallen into one of two categories um one is sort of just like your token lachers with funky spins on them so virtuals on bass and pump right and like you know I don't know if that's where the puck continues going uh I think there's value there for sure and like everyone is short attention span just wants lottery tickets Etc um but I also feel like more and more Capital has been burned by that and is less likely to play those games yeah um the other is sort of like you know stuff that's a little bit more like eggs on Sonic for example or like you know games that

effectively um have a uh a game theoretically optimal way of of engaging with them might have interesting Financial value um but sort of rely on the fact that there will be one group of users that educates themselves more uh and plays that game more optimally than than the other uh and then sort of spirals a little bit right um now I I don't always think that these end up being like net value creative or net positive for the ecosystem in the short term but I do believe that if they draw enough people in and you know enough other things keep them there then they can be bullish yeah and I think like the key thing about uh eggs and Sonic for example is that beain and Sonic are currently I I'm pretty sure this is 100% the only chains that are that are driving value from the fees generated or

from the applications right back to the apps themselves and then giving that back to the users in some capacity Sonic's obviously different just goes back to the apps and they can kind of choose what to do with it um and I think like Sonic's kind of getting a lot of Mind share now because of that bar is as as well do you think that these are like Trend defining ideas that will basically persist into uh kind of in a similar way where you know now if your l1's not cheap and fast it's basically like it's no one's going to use it is is this like a new idea where if you're not returning the value back to apps or back to the users through the apps that that you're not going to get traction like is this a new idea I think it's it's I think it's

almost just like a an obvious thing that's become like more iteration right yeah yeah it's like just over time we've seen more people leaning into it like way back and I think like if I recall correctly I could totally be wrong here I think Sonic is using like a version of like CSR like something similar to Kanto had way back and the whole idea was like you know gas fees and like effectively fees are just like going back to apps which makes sense like right like it can be gamed to some extent where it's like the biggest gas caers per se might have an an outweighted effect there um but I think the whole idea of like you have to allow the application layer to thrive um otherwise everything else loses uh is becoming more and more ubiquitous um and I think that we'll start seeing people

Trend towards that at like the protocol level over time right um I think that like we'll see that with other launches like you know IA they've got like a sort of a a version of almost like kpi proof of liquidity of sorts right we call you know like like fed chain proof of liquidity like they're homies and I think it's kind of cool cuz Zan was in here about a couple hours ago and he said crime is legal yeah well dude like you know when the fight no he said it's illegal he said it's illegal said the community he said the community wants him to do crime and he has to say no oh yeah everyone wants us to do crime bro everyone's like whatever you must do to make the I'm like bro I no got to relax there but like I I do think that um I I

think that we'll see more and more Trends towards value capture at the application user level as opposed to at the infrastructure level so what does that mean for L1 valuation premium going forward right because I think a lot of people thought you guys would launch way higher not that you guys should have or could have or what you know like what happened happened right but like what does this trend towards applications of cream war value mean then for like L1 or Bas layer valuations do you think they start to become more on par or are we still just far out from that I mean uh I I I think I'm still a believer in the L1 trade though I'm probably a little bit biased um for for perhaps somewhat obvious reasons but I do think that we probably see the gaps start to close a

little bit and I think we see Power laws become more and more evident um and that I think like in the same way that many ecosystems are boiling down to like two or three daps and a bunch of random [ __ ] I think that becomes closer and I think that the ratio between the actual like let's say the actual L1 token or L2 token for that matter and it's lead and it's leading daps probably closes quite a bit right like I don't think like the the arbitrum GMX or the arbitrum like Camelot Gap I think that would not exist in a in a newly launched chain if that makes sense right from a from a token value point of view um so I think that one is going to be pretty interesting to track um I don't think it takes away from the L1 though because I don't think

most l1s are valued based on what is even the word because they don't by Nature capture value in most cases l1s are just giving that value to the stakers right and the stakers are not necessarily always like that incentivized to do much but dump it either so I I think it actually might end up being more value creative to those L ones in long term um but you know that's that's a lot of Crystal balling is your is your competition in in your mind is is arbitrum even like part of your competition I mean like they're like the L2 for defi like they've been like you know they have deep liquidity Etc I mean I have respect for arbitr and I think that a lot of the builders that we um interact with or work with have sort of like cut their teeth there in different

ways in the past um but I also do feel like the excitement has died down there a lot and as of recent days like you know I think that there was a a proposal to deploy their treasury or or some part of of foundation resources and that was actually deployed all into like stuff on E midet yeah basically as opposed to our the community wasn't very happy about that yeah like you know tricky look right um interesting so I don't know I think do you have any competition does bar Shan have a competition I I I ironically think the competition is probably salana eth um base to some extent uh I think those are the ones I we think about the most um because you know in some ways like bear chain culturally has has overlap or elements with with all the above I think eth is

just like a base plate right it's like it's very tough to not have competition in some sense with eth I think we're both very evm aligned and I think that like I think it's exciting that bar chain is pretty much as close as you can get to the ethereum L1 even more so than l2s or other l1s for that matter um but I I do think that to some extent they have to be competition because we're all fighting for liquidity for users um and attempting to grow the pie but along the way the pi is also divided internally one one important distinction between you guys and salana is that you have that reallocation mechanism back to the apps users I think especially recently that's what salana has really lacked you know you look at how extractive meme coins and pump fun is I mean all the

revenue they don't you know they're they're making ton great for pump fun you know they're closed loop of team but none of that get gets gets uh you know pass back to the ecosystem 100% And and that goes both ways right I think some teams including perhaps the pum fun team haven't always been um enamored with with Solana's response to them um because I'm I'm I'm sure you can see that weird push and poll like well we brought so many users to you but [ __ ] you you're taking money away like you know what I mean like you know who who is who's the bad guy here or who has the most leverage in the situation right correct correct and and you know um I can probably touch on more of that kind of stuff in the future yeah um but interesting to see how it plays out I I

think that we'll see a lot more people playing the field and and trying to find places where uh they're welcomed if that makes sense yeah well some we appreciate your time I hope you have a great East Denver of course man you're always welcomed on the rollup I will I'll make it out another time and I'll hopefully drag you guys on something at Bear paloa yeah dude cheers man