DeFi by Design EP#97: Why Braavos Wallet Will Surpass MetaMask in 2024

Transcript

foreign [Music] by Design where we talk all things blockchain and cryptocurrency while striving to educate Empower and then enrich what's going on guys welcome back to the D5 by Design podcast episode number 97 here today happy Monday it is May 15th um in the midst of a very important day actually for ethereum because today uh the governance proposal for Lido Finance is getting approved and passed which was is the final step of the upgrade in my opinion for ethereum chappello which is going to allow Lido stakers to unstake

um and basically finalize the last inherent risk amongst many risks of staking with Lido as well as just in ethereum staking environment in general so yeah pretty big day for for this proposal to go through um and it's fitting that we're talking today with Monty from braavos which is a wallet built on starknet to basically scale ethereum and so all these things are happening all kind of that at once and I put a tweet out today and saying that I'm pretty excited for a lot of the building that's happening in the coming years so yeah we're going to dive into Stark net account abstraction some interesting features of braavos what start that's all about

um and and other cool topics so yeah here here with Rob as well of course good morning Rob um it's good to be back good morning indeed it is good to be back we're gonna we're gonna dive right into it I want to hear all about how Bravos is approaching starknet um obviously the uh the ethereum chain is is scaling and layer twos are very core to that scalability thesis um so Monty I'm I'm excited to have you on the podcast welcome and um yeah could you can you tell us a bit about how how you see the uh the scalability of ethereum um both with respect to Stark net and then and then how you approach this with your work at Bravos

all right so thank you rob thank you Andy pleasure to be here um so you know for us as a team and and me in particular we are kind of latecomers into crypto so uh when we came like uh there were quite a few layer ones that uh we can learn from and uh and we started we decided to settle on ethereum and it was clear to us that they team did the right trade-offs in terms of uh decentralization security and scalability so uh opting in for uh decentralization and security but then we have a serious problem with

scalability luckily we have Roll-Ups and when we study the different Roll-Ups then uh we you know we came into the conclusion that a validity roll out so if you want ZK Roll-Ups are a better option than optimistic Roblox and in uh infinitely zero Labs starting tests by far the the most proven technology battle tested technology and have the the best chance to scale ethereum 200 000 and maybe more than that transactions per second and that's why we decided to to settle on stock that we we believed and we still believe that it will it will turn out that the Superior

l2s in terms of uh sailing Theory we've had a super positive experience with the community as well um there's something to be said about that too uh which is that there's there's a lot of um initiatives happening to scale ethereum and there's there's a lot of initiatives around different communities but something about the starknet community has a very very good vibe to it um so yeah I'm excited to kind of see how that Tech um can kind of form form and and come to fruition and and I think what you said about kind of the overall Tech of ZK and start that being better than optimistic Tech um it's kind of like the basis of that community so certainly excited to to to see that come to fruition

um now I'm curious about what your thoughts are as as far as making the user experience um even better as well right now you know a lot of users are using um the OG OG wallets like like a a meta mask and even even a rabbi uh a rabby wallet now but there's still that kind of like problem of why is this not super intuitive um kind of how how do we how do we help this um you know grow to the point where it's able to be you know understood and used by kind of people who are new um so yeah broadly your thoughts on kind of like wallets um and ux and then most more specifically how Bravos is kind of

pushing the frontier there so you know if to be frank I think that uh traditional wallets uh have a very badly yeah uh you know that they put a lot of Burden uh on usual shoulders I know this is uh this is all at least this was out of crypto eaters but but it doesn't work for users and we see that even early adopters in crypto and we thought that in the last full cycle even the 200 million 300 million you can you can name the number uh when they use crypto they didn't use like real crypto they use mostly the

centralized Solutions like the FTX on them all the cells use the block five voyagers so forth and we all know how that end right that uh that's like the opposite of crypto you get in a bank which is unregulated so the worst of Both Worlds but you cannot blame the users because these kind of services they offer them uh a nice experience and experience that they are familiar with the other apps that they used and whereas crypto with the traditional wallets the offer that's very uh and experience with very high friction you know you need to understand about Keys the private Keys

public Keys zip phrases to make sure not to make any mistakes or all your money is gone uh to keep everything safe so you know a lot of things that the everyday users are not custom to and even technical music you know it's a like a like a steep kind of uh Endeavor that you need to embark on in order to to do that right and and you know we just see people most people don't want that and it's certainly for for you know from well I'm looking at things that's certainly not that fast in Mass adoption so and for us that's the the entire world the entire goal is to

give a web to life experience with web free values meaning give the experience that users are used to from the application that they are using today like I don't know Uber and wall with Spotify Etc but without compromising decentralization without compromising self-custody so enjoy The Best of Both Worlds and we chose to work on Stockman because we can Leverage uh starting a significant capabilities in order to achieve that and it has two things which are prominent in this in this uh in this endeavor to to reach a good experience for uh for one at one is it has a count abstraction built into the

whole economy we can dive into account abstraction a bit later and as an ethereum scanning solution it has very low gassy so although it's uh it inherits ethereum security and decentralization it brings a fraction of the cost in terms of gasket and it makes computation very very cheap this basically means that we can do very large amounts of computation on chain uh in a very economic way and if we would try to do that on the tuning base chain it was it would be it would be possible maybe but definitely not an economical like each transaction will cost each even basic transaction will

cost tens of dollars or hundreds of dollars of the deadline here on stock that we are talking about sub one dollar and hopefully it will be sub 10 cents going forward and and that's a key feature in uh in improving ux and and if you like we can we can give some tangible examples so users won't uh won't have to speculate on what is me what what we can do with very little gases and account obstruction yeah yeah please do I think that would be a really interesting to to cover some examples okay so so maybe uh uh let Let's uh dive in a bit about the difference between traditional wallets like the metamask of the world and smart contract wallets

like Bravos uh that uh you know how much the power of account abstraction basically small contract wallets and account abstraction let's use that as a stimulum uh means that each of your transactions goes through an account smart contract so if you look at traditional wallets like the metamask of the world they are basically an application which is what we call only client-side it resides only on your computer or only on your phone it helps you sign transactions and shows you that your your account status on the blockchain but basically everything happens on the client side small compact Wallets on the other hand has two sides it has the application side like

traditional wallets but it also has an account smart contact that is resides on chain and all your transaction goes through this accounts not on track before they interact with any other contract on the blockchain now what that means it means that we can employ a custom verification Logic on your signature and a custom execution Logic on each and every transaction and that's basically you know open uh or a whole domain of uh of things that that we can do as you know as far as we imagine and in browse we really started to harness this power uh with uh with a few things the basic

things is around security if you you look at any webview solution you know even even if when you are assigned into an app and you want to order food you have two-factor authentication right you enter some kind of password and then you authenticate with with your phone another either with with an SMS or with some some sort of authentication up or whatever but in crypto which holds uh a lot of money uh we we don't have a real two-factor authentication you know even if we have two signers uh there are two different uh and there are two different Keys which are eventually

um one form of authentication maybe for the users I will take a uh it's for the listener sorry and you take a step backward and explain the three main types of authentication that use you know in in security at large not necessarily in crypto so when we are talking about authentication the three main types are something you know which is usually a text password a pin code some sort of pattern if something you have which is a physical device so if you have it no one else has it and something you are which relates to you to your biometric identity and a good form of security takes at least two out of this screen

and preferably not the first one not something you know because it consider the weakest one so preferably something you have and something you are but even if not that so at least two and in crypto you know we have uh only the first one like only something you know only these 12 words uh Speech phrase that protects your your money and if you think about it even if you use a hardware wallet the how the wallet itself has a 24 12 or 24 seat frame which is also something you know so if I steal that from you and I buy a new hardware wallet I put that in the New Hollow wallet and I have your own pile of funds and that's that's a very bad form of uh of security and because it's

highly susceptible for fishing attacks that uh it's extremely exposed to malware a user easily forget that and we all know the stories about that people will forget the seed phrase and have uh hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars locked in uh in Bitcoin or in ethereum or in whatever or a few good years and part of the reason that you don't have multi-factor authentication in crypto is that blockchains don't really have a connection with the external the external wall and the the signature skin that they know how to verify

is is limited is it is not compatible with what we have in the external world for example on our security or on our strong security chips that we have in our mobile devices so in progress what we did we harnessed the power of account obstruction with the fact that we can have a custom verification Logic for the signature and we said okay let's take the the very strong security chip that we have in our iPhones and in our Android phones generate keys that no one knows like not the application of the user not the OS not the font vendor no one knows that they are generated in an isolated environment and

once they are generated this the security chip can sign transaction authenticated by biometric and all these packages verified with code on chain meaning it's not just that you entered the wallet app and the identify your biometric that's nice but it doesn't really verify that you sign your transaction with uh with your biometric ID just that you you you were able to access your application and the fact that we that we can do that the fact that we can have custom verification logic allows us to utilize that and use things like face ID or fingerprint ID and and top up the level of uh of security and

present a true two-factor authentication qfa into crypto I think for the first time so so that's one thing and and and that's if you think about that in terms of few weeks you can think that you are signing transaction on the blockchain like you use Apple pay or you use Google pay uh it's as simple as that so you decide to sign transaction you authenticate with your face and uh once you authenticate it then it's time to the blockchain gets verified now that means that if someone stole your C phrase no matter in what way fishing attack malware that you downloaded by mistakes whatever they cannot steal your funds because they don't have your device and they don't have your

Biometrics so so that's uh we consider that as an order of magnitude better security than the traditional way of doing things no it's that's not enough and you want to add an extra layer of security then we have the multi-factor authentication in which you can add an additional device so let's say for your hotline account you don't want to just your phone and authenticate it via your face ID or fingerprint Etc you want uh two signals and two from two different devices authenticated by something you know something you have and something you are and only once you sign on these two devices only then and it's been verified on chain that's uh

it's true only then the transaction goes through and they interact with other contracts on on chain and now now I I feel that this is uh a real jump in terms of both security and user experience when we are talking about Krypton blockchains yeah that's uh there's like that's the pyramid that that braavos is you know has been talking about and marketing just kind of those three levels um you know the basic level right of kind of what a lot of uh a lot of people have which is just kind of like a hot wallet um then you can even move into like a cold wallet then right then you can move

into like social um social verification and um as you said kind of that level of of security with the with the face ID and then you you move even further into kind of like multi-sig capabilities integrated with um other kind of Biometrics and um you know potentially even things like security questions right like um like like we have in uh on like a website like oh like what is your your mom's you know uh dog's name or something like this right um so and Andy think about it that even security question is something you know and as we said this is the weakest form of

security so we rather rely on something something you have and something you are which is much more much much more harder to much harder to to steal or much harder to guess Etc so and think about it even cold wallets eventually this is something you know because I can steal your seed and I can trick you to give me my to give me your seed Etc now here I need to trick you to give me your device and your biometric which is much harder you need to be really aware of doing that and if you had the the multi-factor then I need to trick you to give me two devices and your Biometrics and your passwords which makes it even harder are there any a

non-anonymous users or privacy Centric users yeah who are concerned about the link between their mobile device and the interconnected interconnectedness of all the permissions that they Grant to different applications on their mobile device but they potentially concerned about the link of that the the other applications on their phone to their wallet on the blockchain yeah so there is no link I think that that's the beauty of that so the the data doesn't go up to any server meaning let's say that you use apple or you use Android no matter which and and all those servers go down tomorrow morning it doesn't rely on any server in your uh your your private Keys never lose your

device the more than that the authentication the biometric authentication is done directly from the camera from the fingerprint sensor to this security chip so there is no no application no operating system that's in the middle so your data never leaves the device and as I said earlier no one knows that so even if you want to give it to someone you can because you don't know that if the OS or the vendor wants to give it to someone they can can get that either and if your Cloud account is being hacked then it's not there so you know it's been hacked it's it's not pleasant but it's at least they didn't take your key so the only thing is to to really steal your phone and to

steal your biometric I think it's a really important point to drive home because the the potential concern that I've I've heard from a lot of users is this dystopian uh cbdc social credit surveillance type of system when we start to bring personal identifying information like biometric data onto the blockchain a lot of the um value in blockchain and decentralized applications is the censorship resistance and if you know if um certain biometric data is brought on chain and there is a censorship party that is able to prevent uh like if you

have a certain hair color or if you have a certain eye color or something like that and prevent you from making transactions in your wallet I think that creates a very dangerous scenario but you're saying that's not the case with Bravo exactly okay okay exactly because we we work very hard to make sure that it won't be the case like thinking your private keys to to the iCloud or the Google Cloud would be the easiest solution also you know when we build a feature we need to think about not only in the future as uh like a proof of concept or a demo we need to think how it will uh uh you know continue living when you upgrade your phone to a new device when you lose your phone when your phone is uh breaks Etc so we took

uh you know to a great length in order to make sure that all the edge cases are working and they're walking without any centralized factor meaning there is no no one can censor you that that's that's a key part of the element and another thing it's important to know that your biometric is not being registered on change your biometric is only used in order to allow the security chip to sign the transaction okay so that's and and the keys are bounded to the security check meaning that you cannot leave the security this is why this is something you have if you don't have that you cannot sign no one can sign you cannot you know you cannot

tell anyone your private keys and they can sign for you because as I said earlier no one knows that it's embedded within the within the chip got it yeah that's very interesting I think the uh I think the capabilities of the security here um are are going to be next level compared to anything else that we've seen like it makes it it could make the experience of just transacting on your phone especially on start net which is going to be soap which is currently very quick and cheap and it's going to just keep getting better um it'll likely make the experience far far better than what users are currently doing which like for me personally is like firing up my computer using a ledger and having to physically do all

this transactions and click click click and all this stuff and again the security measure there is what is what I know or basically what I know to to be true that is you know written down somewhere right and so it's so yeah that that capability uh those those security measures combined with the capability of Stark net makes for a very very very powerful storm and I'm excited to see it um kind of come to come to fruition and a lot of things that people are doing right now on Stark net from what I've seen uh and from what you guys are also incentivizing is is the starknet pro score on braavos um that this recent Stark fighter

campaign um a lot of Education around account abstraction and and the security pyramid um as well as preparation for the starknet airdrop um and Stark net governance so um yeah you know I'm I'm curious about what you what you personally are kind of expecting um about let's just say the next three to six months on starknet with uh kind of a lot of projects getting live um you know a lot of users coming on expecting airdrops trying to build up their Pro score kind of what what is your short to medium term kind of view and expectations and then I think once we kind of get a good idea of that we'll

be able to hit some questions and some and some thoughts for sure so uh you know I I think that the country stock net is in a transition so uh stockings is going to a semi-process of Regenesis in which uh there is a move from Cairo zero to Kyle one kyber is the programming language that we write smart contract on stock net unlike ethereum which uh we write in solidity on on stocknet we write in Cairo and now in order for the network to mature we need to move to the next uh the next level of of the Cairo programming language and this will take place in the upcoming months or two and another thing that is

very exciting that will take place in in I believe in a month or two or even less than that is uh um and let's call that stock net speed up I think that we will see a tremendous increase in transaction per second uh and really the like the first um uh the first sign of true scalability of ethereum which is Meaningful like much much more meaningful than anything else that we saw in the industry and that's right around the corner and that's very exciting both for us you know as as a team who's been developing on the chain for for quite a long time and it's exciting from from two from I

think two different aspects uh one uh you know High higher TPS uh means that we will get the lower currency even lower transaction fees and lower transaction fees means that we can have even greater computation on chain and improve the user experience uh even more now we touched previously we touched about the the security aspect that we employ in account obstruction but the kind of fraction allows us to do many more things things like to have a built-in payment cell meaning you can pay for transaction gas fee in any token that you have in your wallet you don't

have to add heat so I think that we all know the scenario in which you want to do something with coins that you have in your world but you don't have enough to pay for the gas fee and that's really annoying because now you need to top up the wallet with each from somewhere but you don't really need daily credit transactions just to pay for the guest so with with the built-in pay Master you won't have to do that uh uh introducing things like daily withdrawal in it like we have having thread try right when you use your ATM card and you want to withdraw from the ATM you have a limit to how much you can withdraw and usually that's a good thing because you don't want if someone stole your your call to be able

to empty the entire bank account [Music] so with the count of selection you can have a daily withdrawal in it and if you surpass that limit then maybe you need to factor authentication or pre-factor authentication or you need to wait 24 hours etc etc so as I said earlier we can program anything uh to the execution logic of of a transaction we can also address the fact of uh I call it the hit by a bus scenario yeah what's happening what will happen if you know I go I go in the street tomorrow and I will get hit by a bus what will happen with all my crypto uh so this is kind of a wheel that uh that I can embed into the account so as you can see like the the

possibilities are endless and you can you can program everything into that and since as we said stock news is is getting mature and starting to move out of alpha having very high DPS and uh level transaction fees we will be able to introduce more and more capabilities into the wallet now you touched upon Style talking to journey and I think this is an interesting problem you know from our community which is like a grown Community I think close to 100 000 people and and growing uh many newcomers that comes to Stockman they are coming they heard about stagnet somehow and but then they say okay we heard about we know about Bravos we install they want to know what to do they want to test the

network and they don't know what to do and for that we create the Stockman Journey the dev gallery that shows all the devs both from testing it and and Main it and with the right links and the right functionality and guides you through the Journey of getting to know start net and once we had that we also created the stock had prospered it gives you the level of your proficiency and within uh within the stock net ecosystem and I think that the feedback of you know the community and especially new users that embark on starting to this uh extremely positive and and we are very excited about that so if if we ever hear

the listeners or viewers that still have nothing about one start with them they want to try that and simply download the download of go to the dub gallery and follow the starting Journey guidelines they improve your your starting for school yeah it's right I think it's a good nice effort for our secret word stark which we will come back to in a bit but um happy to be here of course with the Bravos Community if you guys have made it this far which you guys are absolutely rampant Savages in the best way possible so I know that you have and you are still watching and yeah you made plenty of plenty of good points um you know from from the first user experience perspective using arbitrum

and optimism is like lightning fast and then when I've been using Stark net mainnet it's quite it's quite a bit slower and you can notice it that it's not as fast so I'm definitely excited for that um for for that upgrade for braavos as well as for myself all users I'm excited for that um yeah I mean I think a lot of users are following the pro score campaign kind of listening to what you guys are promoting um in an effort to kind of be on that airdrop list I think a lot of people are excited about that but also I think a lot of you are excited just naturally and organically about Stark net so um yeah I mean Robin and I have been doing our Stark fighter our Pro scores on Bravos we've got our Stark net IDs have got LP positions and Jedi swap 10K swap

getting ready to to to use zkx uh have bought some nfts have made some nfts on brick um I've got like a stark net zombie or Punk or something um so yeah definitely been messing around quite quite a bit and I'm very excited yeah it's good and I think I think we've you touched um a lot about account abstraction and it's a very important concept and and I I think just again differentiating the idea of a smart contract wallet which is more like a hybrid um smartphone versus like a a metamask which is more just like a physical wallet that holds cards and bills um I know it's hard to kind of compare

the two but the functionality is just yeah is is far better and I I can't really foresee a world I think you touched right on the point and yeah I think you touched right on the point and your example is excellent like a smartphone cracked wallets are like smartphones and traditional wallets are like feature phones you know like the old Nokia phones that we used to use so both devices can make calls but in smartphones you can you can do much more than calls so the analogy is that okay so both wallets can sign transactions but with smart contract wallets you can do much more than that uh similarly to what you can do with your smartphone compared to to feature phone and if I were to guess I think that in five years

time all wallets will be smart wallets meaning we won't have any more feature like traditional wallets that all they can do is generate key and sign transaction yeah I'm thinking the same thing I don't understand how any wallet can compete with a wallet which has account abstraction natively integrated into it if if said wallet does not so um yeah I'm definitely excited about that um now what are your thoughts broadly on starknet governance recently Rob and I have put up a proposal to be a starting delegate and I'm curious what your thoughts are about how the stock net

governance has been going so far uh some of the recent proposals and how you guys are going to kind of participate so so the you know we have uh very high respect to the stalker team I think that um they are uh you know extremely smart and well-rounded people and they put in a lot of thought on how to build a foundation and how to decentralize the protocol and and it's I think it's really exciting to to start seeing that in the past few months come into play so you know that uh uh the they announced that the token will be uh minted and it was already minted and then they

announced the structure of the foundation and now the foundation really you know is is coming to life there is a chairman for the foundation there are people who start walking and pushing uh on the community and the network forward and uh this is uh significant steps in uh in the road to full uh full desynchronization and that's great and I think that also the balance that the the stalker team created within stock net and the foundation and giving a voice to the the builders on the platform giving a voice to uh the community delegates giving advice to you know the early

supporters uh back here that helps talking or build the platform it's the it's it's extremely important and I think it really will serve the network in the long run because it will incentivize uh very I would say long-term kind of good behavior or long-term kind of building and thinking about the network how the network is best to flourish than a very short-term kind of the potential for for games and so so you know we see that happening uh really in

these days and weeks and I don't think that there is a finite date for that when uh you know the foundation will take full control over the national but we are getting closer and and maybe you ask also how would we participate so you know part of the foundations the Builder Council and and purposes The prominent a member in the builders council you know we got a wallet and by the way we also have a Decks that we've developed on stocknet and that we are fully um focused on Stockard we we truly believe on the future of the network and

the ability to scale ethereum and even when we got a request from the Italian foundations from the team that is working on account obstruction to come and bring Brothers to EDM chains uh at least from now we are currently very focused on stalking because and we believe it if we it would provide us the best tools that we can to scale and to give the best experience for our users so we try to help and we try to influence within within the Builder accounts and within the you know within the the network that we have uh the people Network that we have within the

community I think it's an advantage that we've started building non-stark net uh kind of from the start we didn't start with bragos you know we wanted to test first like how good stock it is and what you can do on stock net and how frightening is this new programming language the kind of programming language that I mentioned as opposed to solidity um and so we started with something smaller with with the decks which very quickly become became very popular and uh and from that point uh we said okay there there is there is a solid technology there is a good thing there is a lot of things to work with and and we we went all in

wonderful there certainly is lots to be excited about on startnet um it's partly the the value that is unlocked because of the Cairo programming language that allows for account abstraction and then thus you know greater scalability um which kind of brings about all of these applications that are beyond the the traditional Financial Primitives we've seen primarily on evm chains um and as like as Andy mentioned you know we're we're going to be governance uh delegates for starknet so we're we're really interested in hearing like both from the token holder perspective as well as from the project perspective

what starknet could do to facilitate a healthy ecosystem they've obviously done a great job so far um a lot of it is treasury management of starknet um a lot of it is as well kind of cultivating successful Partnerships in the space um so I'm curious you know what what do you do you have any like requests like if you were as part of the the starknet foundation you know what what would you Pioneer what would what kind of initiatives would you lead well we have a part of this but uh I think that um as I said earlier we built here for the long term we are here to escape ethereum

to scale crypto and to onboard the Masters onto crypto and if we will Circle back to the beginning of our discussion then we want to bring the web to kind of experience without compromising on web free values without compromising on decentralization and self-custody and I think for that you really need to think for the long term you need to think about technology you need to see how you improve and get DPS to uh hundreds and then thousands and then even Beyond and I think okay you need to incentivize the building new things cool things not only things that have been built on ethereum and simply

replicate them on the network like like we see in London Redbox but really new things that uh the cheap computation enables and that's the that I think where we as as a community that cares about that worksheet hit pushed for yeah totally agreed and and how how are you guys currently doing that within the uh within the Bravos ecosystem um you mentioned like there's uh you know there's this journey and you guys are certainly cultivating a community um is there a token that is uh is a part of that that journey and then uh if so how do you intend to use such a token uh

to to incentivize members of the the braavos community to build new things um and and kind of grow the ecosystem oh man there's a billion dollar question yeah well hopefully more but uh you probably know it's a fellow question but we cannot really comment about the token what I can say is that um I I think I repeated a few times the world volumes here in uh in the school and we value greatly decentralization we think that's the that's the main reason to be in crypto otherwise let's build on AWS well let's build a new butterfly or whatever the fact that we have crypto is

because we have uh centralization we have censorship resistance no one can you know put the plug off on on anything that we do and this is this is a core part of our value and this is what we believe in and uh and this is where we will strive eventually to be fully decentralized uh so I know it's not completely answering your questions but uh but hopefully in a partial way yeah no that that's quite all right and it is a build strategy for the long term um you know in your answer you basically said like if the token isn't necessary to incentivize Builders to build cool things here it the product speaks for itself the main product is a a

decentralized network of cheap compute um or even even but also the the application themselves has to be decentralized and to decentralize the application themselves whether there are infrastructure applications like wallets or you know D5 or whatever uh that's also a core part of the the process because even if starting is fully decentralized but let's say wallets are not decentralized then you still have um you know a failure point we still have a point in which uh um a strong strong regulator can sensor or uh or or you know anyone who gets control over um well we can consensual and we don't

want that and so when I say decentralization I mean the internal ecosystem has to be decentralized not only stockings itself yeah for sure and guys once again secret word stark um just kind of wanted to come back here and kind of wrap us up it's very excited for the future of Bravos and what you guys are building Matson very much appreciate your time today um I guess just one last question for you that we'd like to ask people is if you had to pitch Stark net to one person in the entire world who would it be and what would you say that's a difficult question um I think that any serious player within

crypto already knows.net so it has to be someone outside of crypto which is open-minded enough and influential in US that uh you know Mike shift the the mindset and and this flower uh to benefit crypto and I would go with great value great dalio nice yeah that's an interesting one I don't think we've had anyone say Ray Dalia on uh on the podcast so certainly unique and uh I uh you know he has he has very respectable opinions amongst the tradfy ecosystem

haven't seen him break into crypto so much yet but with uh starknet um delivering the promise that that the promises that that they've made um and and you've made um I think those types of of uh offerings like web3 applications and all the the benefits of decentralization um with web 2 experience are certainly desirable to uh any any expert of Trad fire Ray dalio uh included so that's a that's an interesting answer cool thanks it was a pleasure having you on thanks guys a real pleasure Andy Rob

um hope to see you again soon come visit uh Austin Tel Aviv and if not we will see each other in Stockton CC yes yes we will sounds good cheers talk soon