DeFi by Design EP#92: Scaling blockchains for the next mass adoption wave w Eclipse

Transcript

welcome to D5 by Design where we talk all things blockchain and cryptocurrency while striving to educate Empower and enrich it's your boy Andy and welcome back to the D5 site YouTube Channel smash the like button on this video that really helps us out and sit back and enjoy the content thank you very much what is going on D5 slate fam welcome back to the D5 slate YouTube channel we are here today with the co-founder of eclipse we're going to talk all about modular Roll-Ups and how they are uh really bringing kind of this next era of blockchain application so I'm super excited to talk to Neil somani founder of eclipse there's tons of building tons of innovation happening all around the

ecosystem and Eclipse is really a Trailblazer in the space of modular Roll-Ups and scalability so I'm happy to introduce Neil I'll pass it over to you and let you uh get started and and kind of tell us what what you're building over at eclipse yeah well thanks for having me Rob so I'm Neil founder of eclipse started Eclipse back in June uh I had some previous experience over in the Terry ecosystem Terra depacked and I spent some time thinking about what the future of blockchains would uh look like I was in Chicago so I was talking about the Solana core folks I was chatting with uh the Celestia team and basically came to the conclusion that the only path to scaling crypto is via Roll-Ups because right now every time we want to scale we

have to spin up another layer one blockchain which basically means that this blockchain has to resecure itself has to get more computers on that board if it's proof of work it has to stake a value if it's proof of stake but either way there's almost so there's only so much security to go around whereas for Roll-Ups you get to all share this very decentralized base layer and you all benefit from that same security so that's the conclusion we came to ultimately Belgium Eclipse we're offering customizable modular Roll-Ups starting with the Solana VM as the execution layer will allow for other execution layers in the future so you can customize that part and you can customize the base layer so you can choose to deploy this to ethereum for example or Solana we're starting with Celestia uh you can use polygonal bail

and we took grants or funding from any of these ecosystems so I was building an evm Ontario so that's a way to run ethereum code on the Terra blockchain and the thinking at that time was uh I saw the success of aurora on near Finance smart chain to some degree succeeded because it was ebm compatible so we basically wanted to bring the same thing to Tara and when Tara collapsed I realized that my project basically lived or died by Tara's hand and when Tara was no longer at the same level that it used to be then it really made no sense to continue building the evm so I wanted to build something and basically solve that concern for developers and now we're starting to see in the Solana ecosystem too unfortunately where a lot of projects feel like they want to move off the Solana L1 and they really have

nowhere to go question and also I want to take a step back and like talk a bit about like execution layers versus consensus so for a given blockchain the execution layer when we were would refer to it it's usually the part that actually runs the code but then there's also the part that provides security for the blockchain so in a proof of stake Network everyone has to like vote on the blocks for example so that's something that um that you can kind of decouple and typically these monolithic blockchains have not decoupled them historically but in the future with the Roll-Ups you can actually separate out that execution layer and the Solana VM is really fast highly parallelized there's great tooling for it such as Helios there's sea horse Lang which lets you write python programs for Solana so all that and this tooling continues to

develop I think people want to like preserve that execution layer because they like it so much but they just don't want to necessarily be on like Solana consensus so that I just wanted to start with that and the second part is like how do we provide all these different base layers because if you look at like optimism or Arbitron these Roll-Ups basically only exist on ethereum if you deploy to optimism you're stuck on ethereum and that's because they do this part called settlement on the ethereum L1 and the settlement process basically determines uh let's say you run a bunch of transactions in the roll up and then you put the result on ethereum settlement is a process of determining whether you ran those transactions correctly because like the ethereum has no visibility on that a roll-up is like executing transactions somewhere else and then it

posts the result only and then in the case of a zero knowledge roll up it provides zero knowledge proof and optimistic Wallops have their own methodology but that that's like the key part that ties these ethereum Roll-Ups to the ethereum blockchain so for us in order to let you deploy your roll up to any chain we can't do settlement on the L1 and instead we have to provide our own settlement layer which does that sort of process on our with our own methodology and it just uses the layer one to store data so now if you want to like move to another blockchain you just start storing that data on a different blockchain instead awesome yeah the the data availability um obviously comes from the data that is stored on on these independent blockchains and the execution occurs on uh these these independent blockchains

on the actual app chains and the settlement all rolls up onto the settlement layer of Eclipse which draws from this data that's available from all these other blockchains and is available to uh the eclipse settlement layer through Celestia and I think Celestia was it was in the news quite a bit when they were first kind of uh breaking ground on their data availability Concepts can you talk about how Eclipse incorporates Celeste last year to bring data from these blockchains onto eclipse the settlement layer yeah it's really cool so Celestia is largely the inspiration for eclipse and that's why we're starting with Celestia as the first base layer because it's basically built for modular Roll-Ups

like this so the the way that we interact with Celestia is as you describe the execution layer so the app chain generates some block of data and it stores it on Celestia and from there anyone can pull that block of data and also get a datability proof so you don't even have to read the full block but you can get some sort of assurance that the block is actually being properly stored and you can use Celestia in other ways too such as for a D5 protocol on Eclipse you can store large Oracle data on Celestia and you can reference that within your roll up and typically it's prohibitively expensive for an actual layer one to do because if you want to store let's say Commodities tick data every few seconds the power price is updating uh that would be or well it's usually every really few minutes but uh

yeah the power price is updating that's a lot of data that you have to store online uh or on on chain but this way you can just store it on some some chain that's basically specialized for storing that amount of data yeah and and that may refresh every few minutes but when you start to take into account Commodities Data stock data bonds all of this data that foreign exchange maybe currencies exactly all of that adds up and the just the different uh sections and categories of this data grows exponentially that it it's like you said prohibit prohibited um to store that much amount of data on one on one chain because it's just it's such a massive uh amount of data that now Celestia brings the data availability availability to layers like Eclipse which is super cool I mean that

that unveils like just this new era of blockchain applications that wasn't possible before these levels of scalability um is there is there blockchain applications or a certain industry that you see is particularly unlocked as a result of this new uh like new Echelon of data availability I think consumer apps is going to be the most interesting in this next wave especially gaming given if you had like a fully on-chain game doing thousands or even millions of transactions per second the only way to really scale that is through a roll-up and throwing all that data off chain in some sort of data availability layer like I think that uh what is it like opcraft

optimism made a version of Minecraft running fully on chain uh which is awesome and that amount of data would not have been possible to store until we had these data availability layers so that's one Avenue another is more like Trad five type applications in D5 I think right now we have a lot of crypto native D5 applications but a wider variety of oracles to bring that kind of data that we're describing such as Commodities data or foreign exchange take data things like that I think are is going to be really interesting too and then the last category is just traditional consumer and I don't want it to be as simple as just Twitter on chain because that's not really a crypto native idea and you'd have to break the network effects of Twitter but just an entirely new blue ocean type of idea that uses crypto in a novel way and I I

can't stay off the cuff what that might be but um but I want people to start thinking about these very like social applications and things that almost like a web 2 type of application but uh but now you can finally run it on chain yeah yeah and that that brings together kind of like the best pieces of the internet so far is the scalability of something like web2 that has allowed social networking and applications to to run with the transmission of uh money as a piece of information now we can transmit value over the blockchain as easy as we can submit like uh like a text or a WhatsApp or something over um over the Internet it's just as easy to to submit value which is super cool when uh we start to kind of like let our

imaginations wander to like the types of applications that uh could be built I'm sure you know there's there's stuff that we haven't even thought about that is like probably in position to take the World by storm um once uh these applications start to become more clear uh yeah it's like the invention of JavaScript for the internet like JavaScript enabled so many new types of interactive applications and if people thought in terms of web one or something and they just made static pages with maybe just like a JavaScript dongle then we wouldn't have seen those types of like fully interactive applications such as like Facebook as you're scrolling it's just constantly updating the feed and it's a seamless user experience that's just totally different than anything that existed before

yeah and another piece that Eclipse adds to the equation is blockchain composability from if I'm not mistaken you have now you have data availability from each blockchain that's rolling up through Celestia into Eclipse does that bring ethereum on-chain data together with Solana and Cosmos and these other blockchains so that eclipses this one house of data that that's on chain and all these other uh independent blockchains so each execution chain gets to pick one data availability layer so like a chain my pixel Austria or they might pick ethereum or something and they can communicate to each other through our settlement layout so it is like a little bit more interoperable and

to be fair Celestia doesn't really have Smart contracts to begin with so it doesn't really make sense to like like there would never be like a bridge that just like directly connects to Celestia but um but yeah that that is that's like basically one one advantage which is that now application but Eclipse basically acts as a bridge in that case like our settlement layer it provides bridging and it also provides that sort of functionality that I was getting at before which is ensuring that the execution was done correctly so that like the settlement layer has two functions got it okay the uh the settlement layer has uh bridging as one function I think I think that's a pretty well understood concept and what was the other the second function is like let's say the execution

layer produces a block of data and stores it on Celestia uh Celestia doesn't actually verify that that block of data was executed correctly so that's what the settlement layer basically does you'll ask it hey um how much money do I have and the settlement there will say according to the valid like the set of valid rules uh we looked at the blossom chain this one's not valid so we ignored it this one is like produced by the wrong person so ignored it and finally it'll come to like what the it'll apply those State transition rules until it gets to what is the correct um state awesome yeah so it's almost like a verified or validator in a certain sense of the data that's uh executed on certain blockchains yeah for an

optimistic op yeah it's like a it's a verifier that's that's exactly what it's called cool so so the the optimistic role of that that you mentioned you know I think that really touches on some of the some of the Styles and Frameworks that existing Roll-Ups are are moving forward with um and obviously optimism right is the optimistic roll up that everyone kind of knows and loves and we have ZK roll ups and other types of Roll-Ups as well how does eclipse take the the work that these existing Roll-Ups has have done and kind of bring it to the next level yeah so we take the uh results from arbitrum and we apply that same bisection method to the Solana virtual machine the trickiness with Solana so

let's say you want to um let's say you disagree with someone and you sit here like hey that guy executed that incorrectly and now I need to prove on chain that uh or I need to prove in some way that they executed it wrong you basically need two things one is that you have to verify that the inputs are all agreed on so you have to say okay these are what the accounts look like beforehand and then the second part is you need to actually verify that when you apply the state transition that the result is different than what that person said so on the first part that's that's the tricky part for Solana because in ethereum There's an actual like Merkle tree that represents the state and you can say hey this part of the state um like I can give like a proof like a I

can give a series of hashes that basically implies yeah this is this is like the starting state for this account here's like the starting state for another account whereas there's no way to do that for Solana so we actually have to change the way that the data is stored in the Solana VM in order to facilitate that very cool very cool and is that a result of uh Solana's consensus mechanism it's actually like an X it's a totally separate so Salon has a bunch of different optimizations they made one is like with consensus they have this like proof of History thing they have sea level which is the paralyzation this is referring to their memory model I think it's called Cloud break okay they're memory model got it so that that's uh that's almost how the transactions are verified uh the

parallel in in the ethereum world is a Merkle tree for validating those inputs and there's not really a uh yeah it's not a Merkel trade for Solana exactly yeah it's just like every account is stored they do have caches for those accounts but the state route isn't really like it's not like a Merkel tree root got it got it okay now just kind of like taking a step back um I have I have questions kind of all across the map I you know I I'm not a computer Scientist by trade I'm kind of curious actually what uh like your personal background is kind of how you got into into crypto um before we before we uh kind of Trace that history um the question that comes to mind is

kind of one of of stateless uh machines because it sounds like now Solana is um you know how how these blockchains trace the root of the state is a little bit different so I'm curious kind of like in terms of the most modular um implementation for these blockchains that that you know is going to end up being the the composable interoperable one um how does this how does this relate to kind of the concept of a stateless machine that's super modular um and and kind of from there I'm curious on your on your history in in uh in crypto and kind of how you got started yeah July so I guess like two

totally separate questions I'll answer the first part uh in terms of like our opinion which is that so for all these different execution layers like Solana or if you look at Aptos and sui they have move ethereum has the evm you could just factor out the virtual machine Ultra altogether and there's actually this library in Ross called Solana underscore rbpf rbpf Ross to BPF Ross birthday packet filter uh that's the name of the Solana that's like the official like nerdy name of the Solana virtual machine it's a Berkeley packet filter uh with some extensions so like these virtual machines could be factored out all together and all these other optimizations that people are making uh should basically be thought of as separate uh and in the case of like the memory model for example if you need to re-implement the memory model in some

other way you can actually preserve the virtual machine and almost its entirety uh and just like Implement that as a separate module within that execution layer and a totally suffered from that would be thinking about how you implement consensus and like Solana has its own like optimizations to its consensus protocol a cosmos uses tender man so we want people to be able to mix and match these parts and as far as just like separating execution from consensus that's something that Cosmos really pioneered through ABCI uh you can specify like an ABCI client implementation and that's how we got Atmos for example they implemented the ethereum virtual machine as like the ABCI client then you can swap in whatever consensus you want which is typically tendermen but theoretically it could work with other consensuses too so

um so that's in terms of like how we think that uh blockchain should be built in terms of these like modules and even within the execution layer itself you could sort of mix and match pieces such as for Solana there's no mempool whereas we want people to be able to introduce their mempool if they want to and there's some reasons why you'd want to do that because say you want to do like an Mev auction so you want people to be be able to capture Arbitrage opportunities and return that to their own protocol that's something that typically requires a mempool and we're working with skip protocol in order to implement that so um so that's like the first question second question on my background uh so I'm an engineer by training I did uh for undergrad I did CS math and business at Berkeley I was

brief I was a software engineer over at Airbnb and then I joined Citadel where I worked as a Quant in the Commodities group and I did power power gas things like that which is why I was like thinking when I mentioned when I claimed power was recalculated every couple seconds I was like that's just like not true uh because I used to like do all kinds of stuff with power and uh and then after that I left uh in March of this year was briefly building in Tara as I mentioned that Deepak started this thing and my four way into my far away into crypto was I bought crypto like several years ago uh I saw it go up and I was like oh that's interesting then I was like this is all fake this is a scam and then my friend started sending me

white papers so a lot of them answered crypto nationally and then I got interested again and I was like this is actually a really interesting space where a lot of cutting edge problems are being solved and then I was motivated to actually enter it very cool so so engineer by trade you know we have a lot of guests on the podcast who are kind of entrepreneurial and spirit and they they've worked maybe for some other projects and have gone through a few startups um to ultimately get to the place where they've settled in in crypto as a startup or otherwise and it sounds like this is kind of your first startup business um how's it going you know like what it what do you uh uh like what's changed in your mind from kind of like the nine to five lifestyle at Airbnb and Citadel to

like you know full-on crypto Degen yeah I mean totally different types of roles like over at Airbnb that's like the cushiest job you can imagine everybody when I joined it was like as big as Google you know or not as big as Google but it's like that kind of Lifestyle it's like you show up you like people show up kind of late-ish you kind of leave whenever it's a lot it was largely remote right during covet so it was a very relaxed lifestyle that it always more intense where we actually still went into the office even throughout covet just did like a covet tests and things like that and I actually kind of liked that because it's like a Work Hard Play Hard lifestyle I think that matches my energy where I like to work long hours but I also like to have a really good time

which I think people in finance really understand and I also feel like people in crypto understand that too so that's why I feel like this industry is like naturally just consistent with my personality uh and then on entrepreneurship I think the big difference was just the level of ownership you get uh you're like very invested in every aspect of the project because if you don't do it like no one will whereas instead of all it's like maybe you're working on a desk or something and yeah like you're going responsible for like some bug or something like that but it's not like um there's no existential risk like Citadel is not going to die just because like 1pm doesn't do like doesn't perform that well whereas your startup literally well like if you don't actually like like hit the ground running and make sure you're constantly pushing on every front then

some other guy's gonna eat your lunch so and then your there will be no company anymore so that's kind and I kind of like that it like puts a flame under you uh it's like a chronic state of anxiety but but I also think that like I I just I'm a strong proponent of crypto believe in the market for the long run so I'm excited about it very cool awesome so so how is the how's the company going so far how is Eclipse like what's the um what's the state of things at this point in terms of maybe the development cycle of the product and you know do you guys have some traction that that you're starting to you know see some projects look to deploy with Eclipse uh yeah we'll probably answer it the other way around so yeah we have like 50 to 100

projects I think it's something like 70 or 80 right now uh that are going to be deploying to a collapse the low hanging fruit is is already deployed on other blockchains yeah so a lot of them are some of them are very early and they're picking Eclipse because it's just the only implementation that makes sense given what they're building so for example if they're they require like just crazy amounts of throughputs maybe they have some special sequencer requirements so they need to see they need the actual execution layer to do something special uh then eclipse is the best solution for them so that's most of the pro most of the projects though are just coming from Solana so that's one Avenue but I feel like that's one kind of uh that's not really a huge priority for us uh we also like are pretty friendly with Solana we

pass a lot of projects back to the Solana L1 because we're like this is just not a good fit for our architecture and it makes more sense to be on the L1 but uh the kinds of products that I think are really interesting are one uh other like networks such as layer ones or maybe projects that want to somehow offer a Solana VM compatibility so that's like the injectives of the world folks like that uh they right now they offer a web assembly VM now they can offer a Solana VM as well so that's really interesting to me and the second is like the Enterprise use cases like Disney Channel or uh like Spotify chain something like that uh where you could stream continuously and we have all we brought on how to Beaty recently has more of an Institutional background those are the kinds of Partnerships that

we're really interested in given that those kinds of applications don't really make sense on other chains given you they want to like they're a lot of the time these web Q scale applications have Niche requirements they can't be supported by an ordinary layer one but because we can develop that bespoke infrastructure for eclipse of the execution layer um that it actually made and they also don't have to worry about security because normally you'd have to spin up your own layer one if just secure the network and you have to also maintain the liveness which is something that Disney's not going to do whereas if they get a spin up their roll up and borrow the security from ethereum or something now it's much more feasible so I I think that's really interesting yeah yeah they can borrow that security as well as some other modules that that come as a part

of the ethereum blockchain and then kind of customize from there as you have done to the Solana VM um and this is kind of just um a question about like your your path to where you are now going going through um the Solana and the cosmos ecosystem you've clearly seen uh plenty of turmoil right Solana has it has had its difficulties uh Cosmos has had its um were there their projects maybe that came along they were very enthused to deploy on eclipse and then they had to kind of backtrack based on kind of like the events that happen on the respective chains

um you know my my question is rooted um for anyone who's listening who is a developer and looking to deploy some some application on you know a relatively scalable chain you know what's the process like to you guys um you know what what's the process for someone who's looking to deploy on a chain and is maybe already deployed or looking to deploy on one of these other chains um how does that process differ when they when they deploy to Eclipse yeah so one of the biggest early Pioneers for Eclipse was zebic zebic is a streaming payments protocol they're onboarding hundreds of thousands of users onto zebic and you can imagine if all these users are spending like it's a streaming payments platform so if you get paid

like 2 000 bucks a month or something now it's streamed continuously throughout the month instead if you had like hundreds of thousands of users that's hundreds of thousands of transactions per second uh with the way that zevix architecture streaming architectures don't always require that and like on uh like super fluid or for example these these other architectures don't but that's that big as architecture that way so as a result um they they wanted something like eclipse over the last like couple of months we basically I mean even before all this stuff happens on a we're basically targeting this use case where if people wanted to move off theoretically then they had that option it's a good go to market tactic it's not really the long tail as I was mentioning but um but yeah that's why like over the last couple of

weeks especially with all this FTX stuff we've seen this huge imbalance in an influx of projects that are coming over and the the reason why it makes a lot of sense for a Solana project is because there's a minimal lift they're already they've already written their code for Solana all they have to do is point the CLI to the eclipse Network and deploy it like usual so for some projects we've given them early access to our private testnet but we're launching public test Nets in q1 of next year awesome very cool so uh that that gives that gives me a sense in all of all of our listeners a sense of like the the path to mainnet essentially where like you said uh public test net quarter one of next year um our community can get involved by reaching out I believe on you know

Twitter Discord and kind of like understanding the eclipse architecture um and then from there start to experiment on testnet um and there's there's you know tons of tons of benefits of of deploying on something like Eclipse um you know you mentioned uh some of these apps that are uh really high throughput and have many many transactions per user as they scale up in users then that's going to exponentially scale the amount of transactions that is flowing through that chain you know we we saw um kind of like some numbers that came out on daily active users in in the metaverse right and it was surprisingly low um that you know I expect that that to shift just as crypto becomes more user

friendly and the user experience improves what's your take on kind of like the load like daily active users that we've seen in some of these uh specialized environments and and how do you think that that Trend continues um in the into the future yeah I think the issue right now is a lot of the people are in crypto because they're trying to capture some kind of yield opportunity but the issue is that that yield needs to have a sustainable source and that source needs to be people that just use crypto for fun or there's some reason why they're using it so there's some consumer application that they enjoy using and that's what they're willing to pay for and the yield is always Downstream of that so the I think that's like the main reason why there are so few users that one is that the

infrastructure just isn't there yet and we need infrastructure that can support those consumer use cases and the second is that the kinds of users that do exist are pretty much mercenary uh and that's because they're and also just if you don't have a sustainable source of yield that yield will go away and when it goes away then the users leave too uh those users but but actual like true users that are enjoying the application and they get some sort of other benefit out of it will stay so uh so that's one shift that I think needs to happen uh and then as far as like the advantages of an eclipse type architecture I think the biggest Advantage is sovereignty so they can always leave an ecosystem they can swap out the L1 uh they could even swap out the execution layer in the future we're going to offer a move

execution layer and then the second benefit is customizability and like it's sort of a downstream effect is that um of course you could customize it and choose a super fast execution layer and get all that throughput but you can also customize it to have slower block times if you're an nft project and you want to control a mint maybe you want uh you want to introduce a mempool like we were talking about you want to charge gas in your native token or just have gasless transactions for governance all sorts of customizations and I think would be prohibitively difficult to do every time you wanted to set up a new layer one but every time you're splitting up a new um like roll up I think it's more feasible got it got it and that that's the path that infrastructure seems to take is almost uh uh an evolution of

infrastructure into uh the consumer facing apps when those like layer three four or five whatever you want to call an app chain starts as an infrastructure layer for its application and then evolves into its kind of siled off execution environment we kind of see like this this path that a project takes from infrastructure to um application and and consumability um once it kind of goes through that that Evolution um yeah it's also interesting to see how like each of these infrastructures often has a flagship product like for example uh Terra even though we don't like Jesus example but uh anchor protocol which offer 20 yield was I mean it was I don't I don't even know whether we want to

call it a use case or what but it was a quote-unquote killer use case for a stable coin they're offering 20 yield for something that looks kind of like a bank account or something like a savings account if you look at uh Solana there's like Serum is like a central limit order book that could have only existed on Solana or like magic Eden for example it's a nft use case and the fees are super low compared to ethereum so it makes sense to trade nfts on Solano what are you excited about in crypto and blockchain aside from eclipse uh let me think one really interesting thing is just uh zero knowledge effect outside of zero knowledge Roll-Ups so generic zero knowledge tag especially stuff that impacts social so playing around with identity maybe types of um like communities or uh maybe types of

labor for example where you can just reveal relevant traits about yourself and hide the rest uh and maybe like ways you can destroy your identity altogether if needed that that stuff is interesting to me another area is um like applying ML and like putting machine learning models on chain with the reason being that a lot of ml models are censored and if you look at like Twitter's recommendation engine I personally think that like it's changed a little bit and like my feed's just been trashed lately and maybe that's just you know just a bad bad couple weeks or something but uh but it's also interesting to add transparency to machine learning models and actually add uh like a lot of people to customize things if they want to yeah another area that's interesting uh sorry go ahead I was commenting on the

ML on chain and open source ml could certainly level up quicker than it than it is now um I didn't mean to interrupt so you you were starting to talk about some D5 Primitives as well I can definitely see that uh when we start to build composability and interoperability across blockchains uh some new D5 Primitives popping up yeah totally like infrastructure hedging I think is an interesting idea because there's so much infrastructure risk especially in bridges these Bridges get hacked uh and if you could get maybe pay some regular insurance and then if a bridge gets hacked you get a huge payout and that compensates you for whatever money you lost sort of uh like D5 pandas like that I think things like um zero slippage zero slippage amms are like not interesting

at all to me like I think there are these like old era of like quote-unquote innovations that weren't really super Innovative in my opinion and I think we want to start seeing things that are they're like really like zero to one thinking almost in the same way like the first amm ever like or just like the unit swap so the unit swap was like the first of its kind that's a that's a zero to one and that's a new idea back then but like there's no reason to be like doing these tiny little adaptations on that when we could build like the next unit swap you just have to look in a totally different area so yeah I think that'd be that'd be nice to see very cool yeah and with with the the new levels of scalability those types of applications are going to look

completely different right where maybe it takes like a certain level of of throughput and then uh that application kind of reaches that height unlike uniswap which was kind of some um some novel concept on how exactly it would require it was because because they're limited by throughput that's why they made uniswap like if if fees are trivially low then you can just make an order bug yeah yeah exactly so now now these applications are going to start to pop up where uh you know it'd be like well why didn't someone think about this before right yeah and I I can see someone popping up like a Twitter that doesn't really look like a Twitter and some novel social networking application um and you mentioned tons of uh tons of

zero knowledge uh you know applications as well outside of Roll-Ups um and I'm putting putting this uh you know combinent combination of applications onto infrastructure that has uh like new levels um I think we're I think we're in a really exciting time of crypto and it's like not really I mean I hear from from just like normies you know crypto's dead right so um this is really an exciting time I think in terms of innovation because we can see what's at the base layer and uh it's almost like it's almost like we're like uh just you know scrapping away all the noise and at the bottom is like a uni swap right a zero to one I totally

agree it's we've thrown away all the crap and the only stuff that's gonna stick is stuff that actually works and and that's awesome yeah yeah and when we have just like a few of those things in the room it's like okay then we can really start to combine these things because there's not very much noise uh that occurs on each of these applications yeah agreed yeah I think also there's still some room to innovate on uh like more liquidity efficient Bridges I have a lot of thoughts I I wish that I prepared an answer for this question if there was uh maybe next time I can hop on and we can talk about some ideas because I have like lists of consumer ideas that I'd love to see and maybe we can share some of those I I'd be more be more careful about maybe I might have

already committed to someone building one of these ideas I might have handed it off to someone so I don't want to like steal their Thunder but um video oh yeah one last area that I think is really cool is token incentivized physical infrastructure things like helium pollen seeing the like uh decentralized battery networks such as this product called react uh they basically given my power background I just like find this interesting but in California we have super cheap power prices during the day and in the evening it's very expensive because the sun goes down you can't use solar so you need batteries to take that power from the from the daytime and use it in the evening but building big big batteries is difficult in like Moss Landing for example uh I think this is like earlier this year maybe last year like the one of the

batteries literally lit on fire they had to like close down the Plant for the for the week or something so the way that a to solve that is that consumers can all just like plug batteries into their I don't know into their wall or something you can decentralize the storage of this power and it makes the grid more efficient yeah right because then we then we can kind of like uh Power share depending on who's using the power and who wants to give it up for some extra yield um yeah there I mean there's so many applications right and it kind of seems like they're all kind of trending on chain for one reason or another um either to tie in the data availability um that's already existent on on the chain or the security um that that exists on chain what do you

and and you know we're kind of getting close on time so so in these last few minutes what are you um seeing in the in the blockchain space that has advantages over uh web 2 and some some you know more uh familiar but also prehistoric uh types of Technology Stacks yeah I think removing trusted third parties is the most important part uh it's something that I think consumers tend to care less about it it's not enough to break a network effect but for example I think that teleport is really interesting uh teleport is Uber on chain it's on Solana uh and what's cool about teleport is one they've removed the intermediary of uber

which is you know you can make an argument against it which is that the main cost and overhead that Uber that Uber has is primarily regulatory uh and it's like marketing like expanding in these new regions and decentralizing the network doesn't really solve that but the offsides of teleporter that I actually think at the Uber price is incorrect and I don't really get where the money's going because for me I see a really expensive price the driver says they're being paid almost nothing and Uber says they're not profitable so like that doesn't really seem to make sense um but of course like they could just be pouring it into like Regulatory and marketing and things like that but um but yeah I think like removing that and having a more transparent pricing mechanism and you can even do like a more maybe I like can provide a more

efficient price as a Trader like for example there are times when I can book a ride in an hour I'm like this is a steal because I know it's going to rain in an hour I want to be able to go like long a thousand Ubers in one hour and then dump it like in an hour from now when the rain starts and that can also help like make the market more efficient yeah teleport derivatives did you uh did you go to their party in Miami I unfortunately flew out on Saturday afternoon because I didn't know I thought that art basil was a conference and it turns out art basil is just a big party and it was a it was it was fun but I think it was a little much for me after a couple of days yeah yeah Miami uh Miami will Aid you 100x the actual

I'm still recovering it's been like a week it's crazy it's not yeah that they had a super fun uh party and we took a Teleport there and it was super easy um you know they were they were doing kind of their incentive program so it was only a dollar to actually take it and they uh they offered to pay in usdc or some other payment options um and they obfuscate all of the uh all the mechanics behind a user interface that looks you know very similar to Uber um and and you know as you describe all of those uh payments go directly to drivers without an intermediary like uber that is spending it on regulatory or marketing or you know yeah and what's awesome is I was over in Lisbon for a

break point and they also had this like teleported setup program it's a free teleport but I got in this and I just thought you asked the drivers to like what other platforms did you drive on is like uber left she's like I only drive for teleport which is crazy I mean it means they're actually breaking into new markets and some of these people aren't even really familiar with Uber and Lyft teleports their first entry into ride sharing in the same way that web 3 was often People's First entryway into like trading or Finance in general yeah yeah very much so they're they're breaking ground teleport specifically and web three companies in general that are removing intermediaries and ultimately constructing this more efficient system as values transferred directly to the end user or the end consumer of that

value rather than some intermediary Revenue uh you know rent seeking and kind of profit cutting um that kind of keeps that value for themselves and and centralizes um so uh Neil I mean is there anything else I felt like we went you know kind of zero to one ourselves in this podcast is there anything uh that uh you want to touch on for uh for the community listening uh is uh just follow us on Twitter for updates it's eclipse fnd on Twitter and we're going to be launching our brand new website within the next couple of weeks so there's gonna be a lot of documentation on the clips you can read through get details on our architecture and you can reach out with any questions awesome cheers Neil this was uh absolute pleasure thanks for joining great thank

you