DeFi by Design EP#60: Onboarding Your Grandma Into DeFi with GOGOCoin

Transcript

welcome to d5 by design where we talk all things blockchain and cryptocurrency while striving to educate empower and enrich it's your boy andy and welcome back to the defy slate youtube channel smash the like button on this video that really helps us out and sit back and enjoy the content thank you very much what's going on y'all welcome back episode 6-0 for the d5 by design podcast most people don't even make it that long in life this is our 60th podcast i think there's a stat that says most podcasters quit after two episodes nope nope never us we're gonna make it to a hundred and more and we're here today uh to talk about defy ui ux onboarding the next 100 million users to d5 basically how we can make it so easy

um and how we can all play a part in this in this mission really um to bring more people in to make it easy enough for your grandma to be a part of d5 to kind of go off the bankless saying of the d5 mullet with the nice clean front ends and all the crazy yield farming and apys on the back end that nobody really cares about well except for us and but you know using those and being able to use the technology and make it easy for others have the pleasure today to speak with gary gary is the co-founder of gogocoin.io they are making d5 easy to onboard people into polygon um and putting them into yield strategies that basically um like i said it's a very clean front end but they don't really know what's going on in the background you can kind of

choose your risk tolerance stuff like that so really interesting product here today with rob um to have a good old podcast with our sponsor gogo and gary let's go let's do it yeah nice to have you on gary and uh jumping into onboarding the the next wave of d5 which is uh you know people that may or may not even know that they're using d5 in the back end um we saw kind of to that point ave arc launched in the last couple days which i saw a really interesting tweet from mark zeller basically saying defy is now the back end of c5 um and you know that that can really permeate into a lot of different areas uh high yield savings accounts uh you know these different money markets where people are

interacting with d5 whether they know it or not um and that's really really something that we're we're a part of and making making sure it happens as well so gary awesome to have you on and i'll pass over to you to uh introduce yourself and uh what's going on gogo yeah thank you guys great great to be on here i guess my first uh podcast hopefully the first of many uh yeah so um let's let's give me uh let's i'll just give you a very brief intro about um i guess my background why i've chosen this path uh of enlightenment coming from the dark uh secretive finance and banking

industry um and then yeah sure um i guess um best is if we if we're gonna chat more about um what's so disruptive disruptive about the google protocol what exactly gold coin is doing and and um yeah i guess what's happening in the space in general um so i'm as i said a former banker i used to work in finance as an asset manager for big swiss funds back in london my first day at work or one of my first days at work was when the u.s sovereign debt or the us treasury or or bonds keynotes were downgraded for the first time

so if you if you enter fixed income or bond trading and the first thing that happens is the bonds of basically the richest and most powerful government in the world get downgraded by the credit uh rating agencies that kind of gives you gives you a hint of uh what was about to come and what i experienced um in the years after that so obviously you know after the last financial crisis big financial crisis of 0809 finance changed dramatically and i was i just graduated around that time so it was it was definitely an interesting time to enter those markets and i'd done basically asset liability management which prepared me really for for what i've been doing after that and

partially what we're doing now here at gogo which was essentially by uh you know massive amounts of bonds and fixed income securities to manage the liabilities of this fund this fund was a reinsurance company called swiss re um one of the biggest insurance companies in the world they're similar like berkshire hathaway so they insure other insurers and uh funny enough they actually got a three billion loan uh bailout loan by warren buffett to stay afloat during financial crisis and while i was working there they were still keeping uh still paying the loan back for 20 percent at a twenty percent premium uh that was quite a nice deal no define

needed just a handshake deal and that's how you make 600 million dollars right so yeah um you know seeing that part of finance and threatfi as it's now known um really really helped me to to understand the i guess deeper me the deeper uh allies or or the the meaning behind you know what finance investment banking economics do to to how they influence our lives essentially how they influence decision making politics strategy um and overall the economy and uh yeah then i moved to a bank uh sock chance stage general as a french investment bank i was working on the uh trading for for credit

divert derivatives and credit derivative indices uh so like csd csd swaps and indices of csds uh um you know sorry cds oh my god like i definitely need to refresh my my tradify uh vocabulary thankfully not a don't don't have the need to use that a lot these days right and uh like not that not just it's not just we changed the whole industry we even changed the language right was using uh like a credit default swap term now okay we just call it uh we just call it some other lp token strategy

um yeah it's it's really it's really crazy how things change yeah man um and then after yeah sure no please continue on uh i i have a burning question for you though but please yeah yeah yeah no sure um i'll try to keep it short because i mean we could talk about for ages so so you know don't wanna don't wanna bore anyone uh here too much but uh essentially um i realized banking threat fire is changing a lot so after a number of years there i actually said instead of just watching on the sidelines how finance is being disrupted i actually want to proactively be part of that and that's how i joined actually berlin-based small fintech company back then no one even know what

fintech meant that was like 2014 so quite a while ago and this company is now known as n26 so helped you know build or initiate um i guess most most of the business initially more on the legal and operational strategic side of things they're now one of the biggest banks in the world i guess or even definitely in europe like they're in consideration so you know they have a nice front-end mobile mobile app it's mobile it's mobile first so everything you do you you do on your on your on your mobile app and 2004 back in 2014 that was very disruptive right back then you know

some banks especially in germany they didn't even have online banking if you can believe it so um yeah that really showed me how much potential there is in in disrupting that space um i left the company after launch to build my own company which was called cookies techcrunch called like the venmo of europe so essentially it was a very similar version of venmo but because in europe everything is was a bit slower you know 2015-16 was actually a good time to enter that space even though venmo was already big and i never understood why paypal hasn't pushed venmo into europe uh because the use case makes total sense all over the world right and

in europe you did even until now you don't have like product like a nice app that is not paypal that helps you send money back and forth so so between friends or family so yeah built that business we became like app of the month by apple um scale it quite nicely and then we sold the company to klono which is a buy now pay vader uh fintech one of the other big big fintechs here in europe and then um i built my third fintech company which called fight rate which is essentially um online lender for shopify stores right so really interesting product um scale it's

like 30 million um dollars in revenue and we sold that company just before covert hits to a large uh german bank and i always had this love-hate relationship with uh the crypto right and during during phi i actually asked our our cto is it me who's doing some noise in the background probably right oh now it's stopped okay perfect um so so um i always had this love-hate relationship with crypto and um my back my former cto said no like that's too risky let's not go into that um landing on crypto and we're talking

about 2017-18 right so way before d5 really started taking off and yeah i was i was a bit um sad i guess uh that we that we haven't uh haven't haven't entered that space back then but you know everything happens for a good reason so so you know for sure by 2020 um that's when you know d5 summer hit off and this is when i got pulled into into that and given my background i guess you guys understand that make total sense um for for someone um who's come you know from treadville and then fintech that tooth intact to definitely

go crazy and go go nuts in that space and uh we started actually with an nft collection called cryptogogos it was trending on opencv for a number of weeks when we launched it um just you know based on some aliens that people remember from from back in the day and and they buy and sell and collect them and the community that we built like over a couple of thousand people then on discord at some point actually started asking uh what can we do with those nfts other than buy sell and trade them and this is obviously where goku coined the gold protocol start started to be and this is where i guess the d5 part um was was was was born and our goal or the also the the title of our light paper is google coin um

which is like the blackrock 2.0 meets cryptokitties on polygon so we we definitely see there's this nice confluence of not just web 2 and that three but also of defined nfts right and we see more use cases um uh you know starting off um these days uh that kind of combine those two because i think nfts will tremendously change the way we we think about ownership the way we think about collecting rare items about scarcity about proof of ownership so um yeah and you know if you think ahead in terms of finance you know that's how you can tokenize mortgages that's how you can talk about landing contracts or like

your lending agreement with the bank and then way more so but yeah we can talk about it um after that so i hope yeah that brief intro uh was worth it's awesome long enough it's uh it's it's super cool that you're able to to have so many experiences in the in the in the fintech world and just in the financial technology and just everything that's out there um to be able to experience and bring that you know to d5 that's basically i mean we can see that a lot of the founders in d5 right now who are doing you know substantially well have a you know a pretty similar background so uh kudos on that and just kind of excited to see um how we can continuously take some of these concepts from traditional finance and bring them

to d5 so i'd like to start there um and i saw this tweet the other day that said a new product or here's a here's a way to create new products that actually have product market fit in d5 and he the tweet said take a um you know a instrument in the tradify world that has an expiration and make it up a perpetual contract so we we have perpetual futures now right obviously in international markets they have ex um they have contracts that expire um so i'm curious what you think a few other applications could potentially be with regards to contracts or instruments that expire in tradify that we that we have either seen or haven't seen in v5 um that we can make uh perpetual

yeah um i mean so obviously like something like a futures contract uh which is essentially or meant to be a hedging product that's that's how futures were born uh similar to like swaps and other other interest rate um solutions i guess um yeah they they definitely have uh tremendous use cases in the threatfire world and to be honest in the transfer world you also have perpetual contracts as well it's just there's there's obviously a trade-off in terms of if you structure or create a product as a bank or or as a financial service provider what's the

cost benefit there right so so is the is the cost of creating such products um higher than than or lower than the benefit that your users or your clients might get and um i think with defy in particular we we obviously don't have um those tremendous operational and um yeah i guess compliance related costs as you would have in the transfer world that's definitely one of the advantages but that's also one of the reasons why you know not everyone has moved to especially the the big institutional investors and and um financial corporates have moved already into d5 um

i think it's definitely going to happen i'm not sure if it's going to happen with perpetual products though um on i know from consumer finance uh on a consumer financing side and maybe retail or sme lending side you also have like recurring loans right that actually have an expiration date as well so for instance the company i was doing before we gave out like merchant financing right so so you're an online merchant and you needed to buy stock or goods and you would have this recurring line of credit i guess um that yeah sometimes or most of the times it had an expiration date and then if you wanted to withdraw new money once you paid back the

your loan you would have to apply or not apply but there's a process of going that you have to go through right which which creates operational overhead and i guess with d5 you can definitely save on some of those overheads um but what i'm a bit more excited about is actually tokenizing cash flows and tokenizing interest rates um i guess interest rates in general wherever those rates come from so i'm very excited about what maker dao is doing together with centrifuge and now centrifuge you know kind of expanding um you know um across a christifa a bit more um and i definitely see more

real-world assets or real-world cash flows being tokenized and brought on chain and therefore creating multiple of new exciting use cases for d5 yeah anymore this is also the end game here yeah instead of just the inflation via token emissions you start to see actual cash flow value created and i mean that kind of takes me to the thought of when you're building the fintech companies that you have in the past you know specifically like the software as a service company um right that you that you got to a pretty high annual annual run rate um you know you're you're really thinking on a cost benefit cash flow expenses profit kind of model right but when you're building a d5 protocol i i

tend to think that you might approach it in a different sort of way while keeping the the the foundations that you've grown your other businesses with talk to us a little bit about kind of what's been different for you in terms of how your outlook has has shifted with regards to building like a web3 protocol a community owned project versus owning an equity startup and trying to maximize profits and you know stuff like that talk about you know what's what are the similarities and what are the differences yeah um i mean the the tremendous like or massive i guess um in terms of what the differences are um let me maybe not start with the

ownership part so basically how how those companies are owned and governed uh maybe let's start with the more the the business model um or or how how to think about kpis about about ram use profits etc so um i highly doubt that the majority of default protocols have a proper business plan in place um i'm not saying you need one but obviously you kind of should should think about how you what's your kpis your financial kpis your financial metrics how you want to steer that ship especially when when you are in hyper growth and i think many founders put that

part of building a business kind of a way as long as they don't really know if they have a product market fit as long as they don't know if actually uh they're going to be users using your protocol and i guess that's fine but also it bears risk that essentially where where how how are you going to make money where is the value coming from how are you going to drive up i guess the the the token utilities and by that you know increased value of of the protocol or of the token uh whatnot so um that that's i guess okay because we're still early so so it's fine that not everyone is thinking about it but you know the tier one protocol they're definitely thinking about just look at the urine um i guess uh investment um

reports that they're i think now published quarterly where they clearly show how they make money where they clearly show how the money they make influences the whole ecosystem and that's just the talk to economics um etc so in that regard the more mature your d5 protocol becomes the closer it gets to be an actual real business rather than some virtual super abstract um i guess yeah machine machinery um in terms of yeah i guess tokenomics is the one thing that even if you have extensive experience in

in treadfly or fintech and and software services uh and whatnot i think that the part that that you have to spend hours if not months uh even thinking about this you know how you're going to keep the token uh afloat in terms of how do you increa increase supply increased demand while decreasing supply or keeping supply stable um how do you deal with token inflation how do you create deflation you know so so things like that where which which is very abstract for many people to think about and i guess when you nail that that that's one key differentiator why you're um why your protocol will be successful or

not in the early days further down the road my belief is that you know good products will find a way to make money either way no matter how good or bad i guess the tokenomics are tokenomics is just i guess a mirror of how good you prepared yourself to play play this game and in this arena because a lot of people judge a product by how the token is performing uh rather than the other way around which should be the case and i think the more gifa matures the more we will see that and in terms of governance um yeah um it's it's crazy right um in in in in web 2 startups uh founders usually

are the majority shareholders they hold most of the equity uh they hold most of the rights and they kind of control most of the company whereas with like decentralized protocols um they're open source such as such as gogo um you know i'm just one of many um and and i'm still and that's the crazy thing that i have to sometimes you know think to myself um i still feel as incentivized as i as i was with my let's say web 2 startups even though i don't hold any majorities i don't have like you know um massive massive control over what we do um you know many things that we do and we will do is consensus based

i mean we're still in the early days we're just we're just gonna start with the governance proposal part and and have people uh and token holders vote on many things right but um yeah if you think about it it's mind-blowing how different it is from from governing um uh uh i would say it's normal web 2 startup uh but you still see here and there things so the way investors think about your company the way investors invest and by that i mean like venture capital funds they still use similar metrics they still think about a d5 similar how they they would think about fintech uh but nonetheless yeah it's a different game um

yeah it's also a different time so so yeah it's super it's it's it's it's it's crazy it's it's really crazy if you come from the world i come from it's really mind-blowing the way the way things things are done in d5 yeah the equity splits and the tokenomics are crazy to think about um i know rob has has has recently started a project uh with a token they've been building it um it's more in like the sports area and and you know we we've been talking to investors and people who are interested and they're just so confused as to how they're like you know they expect equity in this in the company and we're like no like yeah like you're gonna get this token yeah and like you know it's just it's such a mind-boggling thing

when they are like okay so you guys have a treasury right that you guys have a doubt ownership over but like theoretically you guys as the founders you're not even the majority owners it's like you know there's a lot of questions that come with that um you know it's been interesting to see would love to if rob's got anything on that questions um before we kind of dive into uh the d5 ui conversation yeah i think the tokenized ownership is is another primitive that kind of started in traffic and has been opened up as far as value creation and when andy mentioned kind of the the value add of taking uh expiring markets and making them perpetual another kind of business application of tokens is

taking an illiquid market and making it liquid and i think that's what we're seeing with a lot of traditional web 2 projects that would have been equity based now they're token based and equity is shared through this token model you mentioned kpis as kind of something that if someone is very prepared to steer the ship they have a good idea of the kpis they're looking to optimize and in this shared equity model it's kind of like there's one kpi that everyone's focused on is increasing the token price and then there's different underlying layers that can kind of influence that kpi to help to help achieve it and that that might be something to dive into as far as the the different kpis

that can help to maximize a token price and if there's any other ones that are really important to consider for any founders that are building protocols or existing projects that are looking to you know ultimately provide new value for their community whether that's through the token price increasing um if it's you know not through uh increasing token price maybe it's a stable price but some sort of inflation um and then i guess other ways that we can create value for communities through tokenized ownership and then we can jump into kind of like what gogo is doing to maximize their their kpis yeah uh [Music]

i mean the question is who's defining kpis as well right so so is it just the management team is it one person is it the community um i guess it's a philosophical question not just a philosophical question also like operational strategic question how much do you want to give real strategic decision making away and how early yeah and maybe to tweak it just a bit is not not necessarily who is creating these kpis but what are the kpis that we should be enforcing and uh and maximizing as a community yeah um

i guess i guess to answer that question the question uh you you should you should um you should obviously think first um what is what is your what is your goal right so so do you just want to increase um so so and the first thing you learn i guess in business school is uh you know um the the job of a manager the job of a founder the job of a ceo is to increase shareholder value right so so so indeed you would you could you could rephrase that and say your job is to increase token holder value right so by that that means just increase token price period so whatever whatever whatever

is necessary to increase that price and i guess that's one way to think about it to to i guess set kpis that go into that direction and we definitely see protocols that have a very good start um in terms of they they they they they you know they once they're created the token is going 10x the minute they go live right um my question usually with that is how much of that is real value that has been created in the bag and how much of that is just hype and i guess you know just good ponzinomics as they're being known

um so and is how much is how sustainable is that so i think out of all those mega hype protocols you maybe have one percent that actually make it down the road and those one percent are known as doge or shibainu and and like those so-called meme and and and and communicates and things that live from an amazing community or a massive community right which which is one way to go it's just one of the toughest ones right to actually onboard thousands hundreds of thousands if not millions of users um but and and don't forget like many of those protocols have like mega mega mega

whales or massive amounts of liquidity um hiding behind them or or sitting somewhere without the users knowing so i i i would not i would i would suggest that a lot of successes that we've seen in d5 comes from artificially just pumping up the numbers with crazy amounts of money and crazy amounts of funds um that have not transparently or have not been made transparent but are just used to pump up the thing massively be it the user numbers be it the token price etc right so so the question just just uh you can derive the question how

sustainable is that in the long term and uh do we even need sustainability now because these days it feels like everything goes right as long as you create some crazy olympus down fork and have good marketing in place and create enough hype you should you're gonna make it right uh especially if you launch it on some hyped layer layer to uh chain so the formula man it's the formula yeah yeah that's one of the formulas but this is now the formula of the day right six months we're gonna have another formula in 12 months we're gonna have another formula so so from where i'm coming from it's super hard to think like that and sometimes i think to myself maybe we should just

[Music] be go full djan and just do that right um i still hope that users will realize that this is not where the long-term value will will come from this and i hope this will not create more distrust and and and and and scams then it actually benefits the whole ecosystem right because i generally think the long term health and success of d5 in particular will come from products that are actually solving a real problem rather than just redistributing liquidity from one ponzi to the next and and by ponzi i just mean

pumped up hyped you know ecosystems i guess even though i'm i'm personally involved with them as a user you know i still i still i still i'm still battling with that yeah and i guess i'm not the only one it's the never-ending opportunity cost of not participating in something versus the like the ethical and moral kind of push to building something that is better and longer term and i mean i think on the kpi talk you've got token almost kpis you know you've got uh amount of holders price market cap you've got then you've got like the marketing kpis social numbers community members the amount of people that come to your governance calls um

there's all sorts of different ones and i think as you're saying we'll kind of see that um the the projects that focus on the steady growth we'll see just a slow slow steady and then eventually hockey stick growth and whereas the ones that get the really quick growth will look more like s curves and potentially you know um an upside down u-curve over time so um you know would like to uh would would like to talk further about you your experience in um creating gogokhan and kind of why you're here um and what that's all about and what the vision is long term so let's start with uh what when did you first interact with d5 ux ui what decks when was it what were you doing what what the hell was on your

mind when you first opened up that uh that site so give us the run down here yeah um i have a very good friend um who is probably one of the biggest degens i know and he's actually you know quite a big dj within the space but you know he he's he's he he he you know he if you meet him you just think oh just just a random night dude that he's you know obviously super smart but you know you wouldn't think much of of him in terms of oh this guy has been in d5 from day one so this guy you know showed me what's what's what's what's the potential there he kept sending me

articles um just just when when defa summer hit last year or the year before or we can say now and um i thought man just leave me alone what is this ponzi what is this crap right um and um he showed me or the first time i engaged with protocols maybe you guys know i don't know how long you've been already in the space but first things he showed me uh was yam and and kitten finance uh you know i was i was aping into that um and funny enough you know i still from time to time go and visit kitten finance because you know they actually had a solid product the

the interface was terrible but or it's terrible uh but uh yeah i mean there were essentially lending protocol so um that that that was my first oriented into the space and we we both um seeded a coin by one anonymous invest developer called clitcoin um you know classes listening to yeah listening to that name you i think you guys can imagine what happened to that coin i've got rockport i think within 24 hours after after pumped like crazy uh but yeah you know i guess every one of

us uh has uh has to go through for experiences like that yeah um yeah and then after numerous more rugfuls and being wrecked and and experiencing everything all the nice but also nasty things of early d5 this is when i started thinking to myself okay um you might be a good trader or you might be or not good but like decent uh you might actually if you're gonna spend more time with that doing this daily and spend and doing nothing else actually might get an edge but i'm too much of a builder i guess at heart i'm too much i'm too curious what

is actually making something like i will work in the background rather than speculating on their successes and just using them as a tool right and and and that's when when i started thinking okay what's what's what's the biggest pain point in d5 right now on crypto in general and this is i guess where where where the whole concept and idea of behind google coin the global protocol uh came from because um you know d5 is is a game changer um the majority of people also finance haven't realized that they will eventually like andre cronies said um i think that was during

main nets in new york uh in five to ten years we're not going to call decentralized finance decentralized finance but just fine right so so what mark zeller said definitely definitely speaks speaks uh uh to that as well that you know uh d5 is now starting to be the back end of um tretify and we're going to see and this is this is where i guess where something like gogo comes into play we're also going to see e5 being partially the front yeah yeah by that replacing threatfire as a whole so what's your vision of d5 is it similar to like 5-10 years is it similar to andre's kind of take um what's your vision of kind of like potentially where

the protocols exist today and then how users will interact with them and then after you kind of allude to that where does gogo fit yeah okay so first of all in five to ten years we'll not have any token rewards anymore at least not the way we know them now i'm sorry for everyone we're not gonna see 500 apys from yield farms being paid out any any anymore um i guess that's that's uh something people will have to deal with sooner or later uh yields will come from different places like like they do now already in tradify one things as i said earlier that that really excite me is

yields coming from uh real world cash flow generating assets such as lending facilities uh more like mortgage lending or student loans um or you know supply chain financing facilities so something like i've done i've done in my previous fintech i guess so so this is where where d5 will you know come and disrupt the whole space just because you can make it way more because you can build those financial legos as as d5 is being known uh in a much more scalable cheaper more transparent way than transplant will will ever be able to do so right so

so um yields will come down and yields will come from different sources but they're still going to be there just because we still have this interest rate but in general rate discrepancy and and and and and massive opportunities um for to extract yields or interest rates from things that currently tradify is not where traffic is not doing a very good job of extracting those those interest rates right because we still have this massive supply and demand of of different financing solutions um or investment solutions um in in the in the world so so definitely very very bullish on that

overall i think though um the shift in in the mindset of users and you can call them investors as well it's also gonna have a massive impact so not just like how companies or people will access different types of lending or saving solutions but in general how people think about that part of our light paper actually talks about how gen x or gen y and gen zette will inherit over 70 trillion u.s dollars um from from the older generations in the next 10 to 20 years and that that's that number i think is for for the states

alone so that's not even covering the the world right and i don't need to tell you guys if you inherit money and you're you're in your 20s or 30s or even 40s you're probably not going to put that into into i don't know ibm stock or ford right or chrysler or um i guess old school blue chips let's let's call them like that right um no i'll be buying gogo i'll be all in go go by that point exactly or you're gonna buy nfts or you're gonna put it at work at a stablecoin farm or you're gonna you know ape into other weaponry services um that offer different kinds of utilities right

and i'm not saying all those 70 trillion will go into that i think a lot will will be will be put into or will be donated um but the current estimate is that even if five percent of those 70 trillion end up in crypto and d5 and we're talking about 3.5 trillion uh us dollars and i think that's almost double the current uh market capitalization of all cryptocurrencies combined right so it just gives you a very bullish i guess long-term outlook of that space um meaning you know there's a lot of um opportunities that will come that will be derived that you can derive from that but yeah it will take some time and i

think the biggest hurdle for the for the for the foreseeable future so let's say the next 12 to 36 months is actually bringing your parents or your siblings that that are maybe more more used to classical web 2 services and products onto onto d5 onto crypt or onto that 3 and preferably you know in the most decentralized way possible right and not sign up at ftx or coinbase um maybe that's a good entry point um or currently one of the best entry points i guess but obviously the journey just starts there and like

like it started with most of us uh for most of us right rather than oh i'm just gonna keep my funds with one of those centralized uh providers uh that that's something i think we as an industry as a whole um should should you know educate users way more um and we definitely we definitely need to need to do more than what we're doing at the moment but also the products itself that are out there they're just not accessible for those type of people that that just use a centralized exchange and are happy with that because that's as far as they they can they can grasp i guess um the the tools there yeah there's like

there's like three stages there's like the never invested there's like the coinbase and the gemini users and ftx users and then there's like the i have my own wallet and i interact with web3 protocols um and i kind of see gogo fitting into um stage zero for sure but even more so stage one is whether they've already got their hands and feet you know kind of wet and they're and they're feeling the ups and downs the volatility but now they want to go get yield now they want to go you know invest in stable coin strategies stuff like that so talk to us a bit about your audience or who you think is your audience and then you know how does gogo fit into that into that vision there that you shared so currently i think we're more focusing on the the second or third user

group that you mentioned so the ones that either have their own non-custodial wallet already or are heavy users on centralized exchanges and actually want to leave them because they understand their potential risk by not having custody of your of your tokens or custody of your keys as well so so that that's i guess our initial user focus uh eventually we're going to focus on on the other the other groups mentioned that that don't even know how how the space works but they are super interested because they keep hearing about it they keep hearing about bitcoin ethereum and whatnot and and they want to have exposure but they just don't know how and they don't have anyone to

show them and they might not have the time or or or i guess the motivation to go on youtube to go on medium or twitter or wherever they are and actually do their own research so so that's why our products initially is a is a more crypto native solution where you still have to connect your metamask account you still have to bridge if you know how to but eventually and this is what we're focusing in the coming months and in terms of uh our product roadmap and i believe that's like also the most disruptive part of our product we actually want to be one of the first uh platforms or protocols that offer a fully non-custodial

solution and still not having uh or and you still don't have to go through the process of downloading or setting up your own wallet writing down the keys on a piece of paper or on some other safe safe means of of of of you know stirring your keys of going through those multi-step onboarding processes right and our goal is essentially to for you as a user to be able to enter d5 in two clicks that's why you know we kind of compare it a bit to let's say the amazon prime uh checkout button the one-click checkout button right where everything is set up for you you don't

have to really think a lot if you actually want to buy something you just click on buy and boom it has your address it has your payment details and you know the the the the goods that you bought are on the way being shipped to you so we kind of want to build this very similar frictionless user onboarding experience and the way we do that um is by abstracting every piece of i guess um ops or every obstacle that you currently have we're starting with obviously the fiat on ramp right so basically the way we do that we we're working with one of you know all of the big on-ramp providers it's like a free click um uh

on-ramp solution where you just buy with your credit card or your bank account right and depending on what fiat payment tool you use it can it can you can have your uh google or your tokens uh bought in less than 60 seconds so for instance with transact right it takes uh three four steps you have to just provide uh your checkout address similar to if you if you're online um and and then you can buy with your credit card um any any any amount and any not any amount but any type of token the amounts are you know they're limited that that's you know due to financial regulation but at least you can already buy a certain amount of tokens already almost instantly the next

step is then putting that to work and because we are in defined we want to have a fully non-custodial decentralized permissions trustless experience we're actually setting up a wallet for the user on a not on a virtual machine that is fully decentralized and hosted in a decentralized manner this is i guess where part of our secret sauce and and part of our innovation comes from and accessing your this wallet that that is your wallet so imagine you just you know setting up a computer for someone and on that computer on that operating system you set up a metamask wallet for this person this wallet of obviously has keys that are stored in

something we call the nft smart vault which is essentially or also known as the proxy wallet which is essentially is a way to store uh tokens in a non-custodial way without us you know having access to those tokens and the user have full ownership but without also the need for the user to write down those keys and a piece of paper or whatever and the way we get a quick question if i was if i was to want to leave or if i lost if i if i somehow lost access to that computer or something yeah would i be able to retrieve those keys easily would i have to contact the team would i sign in you know how would i do that

that's very good question um no you would not have to contact us and that would be a flaw and that would be a massive element of centralization if you if it would so the way you do it is for something known as social recovery so similar like a multisig works you name three of your best friends or family members as you're trusted i guess or trustees and when you lose something or when you want to get access to those keys you call them up and say hey can two of those three friends or family members help me

recover that and this is something the argent wallet or the harmony one wallet do as well and currently it seems to be one of the safest ways to basically store and save and recover keys in a non-custodial manner uh without the need of us that you can get you know because then it wouldn't be not scary anymore yeah sorry interrupt argent also acts as a guardian you're themselves too but they require you to also have um other guardians now in gogo's example the other let's call them guardians those guardians they need an ethereum wallet as well correct no they would not because we don't we

would connect that with a um user user at a profile identifier be it an email address so they would need to have an email address that's the current uh uh architecture that that we're looking into uh we could use something different like mobile phone uh phone numbers or different things because if they would have to have a wallet that kind of defeats the whole purpose right because then it's not and they could they could lose it no no it's yeah they can lose it and plus uh it's not really that easy that the the way we want to build it is that basically literally every person with internet access

um and i guess comprehension of english and yeah and comprehension of what crypto is uh can access and and invest into d5 and uh yeah that's that's the vision um obviously we're not gonna be able to to to uh to reach everyone i guess but um if you if even if we help um just you know bring in another wave another or another million or two of users to d5 i guess for at the current stage in the current stage where d5 is that would be tremendous so so that's that's our goal um and and uh we're gonna work

tirelessly and non-stop on on you know reaching that um this year and and and and the time to come but um yeah we still have a long way ahead of us um but we we couldn't be more excited you know because i think yeah i think um we're just getting we're just getting started uh the space is still in in its infancy to a big extent so uh yeah extremely hyped about that and um i don't know man yeah how do you guys uh how do you guys think about that yeah i'm excited to to have my mom sorry i'll let you go i could have my mom and dad as as guardians and they wouldn't even need an ethereum wallet bullish bullish on polygon for the next few

years makes me bullish on gogo bullish on gogo inherently makes me bullish on polygon and to kind of wrap it up here it makes what you guys are working on seems like anybody can come with a a debit card credit card or bank account and basically go from that to d5 without really knowing what the hell they're doing just just knowing that the type of risk that they want to take in terms of like let's call it three buckets and basically they can go from bank to d5 to non-custodial wallet without having to store their own keys with a social recovery in like a click and that is i mean that is just i mean boom like our audience would love that our audience would love to share that with their family their friends um so definitely excited to uh to experience

more as the product grows and develops and um you know rob will kind of close this out here and and bullish on the openness and accessibility of of d5 how the open source nature of these nft smart vaults that you're building are are technology that that other projects can leverage in in creative ways um bullish on on new entrants into the market uh through the through the more accessible nature of of the technology you're building not only the 70 trillion of money that's to be inherited in kind of this next generation x gen x y and z but also um just the the what i'm thinking of is a conversation i was having yesterday and it was a point

that someone made it's like you know are we still early and someone someone mentioned well we can't always be early or not everyone can be early by definition and i was kind of put back on that because the point the point that i brought up was well there's more people still to be born than have been born up until this point and to me that's very bullish on on uh kind of more entrance into the space and and how there's still new markets to be created and new money to flow into the space and gogo is making that that space accessible and open to everyone um greater capital efficiency through that and greater greater entrance into the market so bullish you know but by polygon through gogo and into d5 overall

thank you