DeFi By Design EP#5: Making DeFi Mainstream With Zerion

Transcript

welcome to d5 by design where we talk all things blockchain and cryptocurrency while striving to educate empower and enrich hey guys welcome back to d5 by design this is our fifth episode i'm really excited to have our guest on today his name is avengi ivenji your guitar um i hope i got that right definitely you know correct me i i think i screwed it up but we're really excited to have you on event has told me he he likes to do a lot of things outside of xerion but we're really excited about um this smart contract aggregator it's really cool because it can pull together your metamask your different assets and give you that

you know one central place to view your portfolio view as it increases and as you deposit and withdraw uh we also have andy my co-host andy how's it going today yo yo yo it's going well i'm prepared to mess up evgeny's name a million times but we're here for it and uh we're having a good time how you doing today evgeny thank you thank you guys i'm really excited to be here um yeah just just to be clear i know my name is talk but let's try again so it's evgeny [Music] just think of that officer from call of duty awesome yeah so like i said we're really excited

to have you on um i i think we can dive right into it could you give us like that one minute elevator pitch what is xerion what do people use it for and how does it work with other protocols in this d5 space sure i'm happy to do that so first of all you said that it's a smart contract aggregator i would say we usually call xirian as a defy interface so that's uh that's the first premise we started with the number of protocols in the d5 space has been exploding recently and the number of assets as well and the whole space is super fragmented and in order for like a normie or even like a d5 pro for or yield farmer to aggregate and find at least just like a single number which would represent the total value of their portfolio

they would need a special instrument so usually like before before zero people just go to like a spreadsheet and put everything there themselves and try to keep track of all the prices but as the space uh evolves and as more and more protocols appear uh there is like virtually impossible to do that so essentially zirin covers people like that so we we allow people to track everything d5 related all the yield farming staked assets all the different tokens and normal tokens as well etc so just allows you to see an overview of the whole stake you have and get and draw more insights from that nice right so effectively if i'm coming into d5 space i want to kind of get my feet wet and

i'm looking for a platform to kind of keep me all in one area and kind of not all spread out all over the place you know having this there that and that wallet that and that platform xerion can really kind of bring us in so where did this idea come from do you have a strong background in ethereum and crypto kind of how did you come to this idea of zerion and like with your background you know how did that all kind of play out yeah um sure so actually the xerian idea was a long long evolution since the beginning of the whole ethereum story essentially i met my current co-founder and cto alex um one one of the hackathons um in moscow about blockchain so we won one of the ideas and essentially we just got our

hands dirty with the theorem stuff and smart contract stuff and since then we have been working in the space so that's been a long journey now so more like more than five years up to date and zirin initially started as a company to help build out different ideas in the ethereum space so we were helping people with the smart contracts and uh implementing their different ideas and essentially we built out this huge infrastructure that would track everything with your related kind of like this data layer that tracks all the tokens and all the deposits and transactions etc so that architecture was useful for for many different things but uh it ended up being super useful for the default space so

essentially when the dexes saw huge growth as well as new protocols like maker appeared they were way more complex than just token transfers and essentially our infrastructure allowed us to to scale up for to support d5 and we were just ourselves super excited about d5 in the beginning it was just uni swap and maker and nothing else and when the term was announced it was it wasn't really highly it was debated first of all so people were thinking is it open finance or like or d5 i was always in for for d5 oh yeah yeah just it sounds cooler um so essentially the idea came from the fact that we tried using maker ourselves and it was at a time it was seven

transactions to do that uh we tried like different interfaces they were all working only with metamask it was very confusing for newcomers and uh yeah all of that together led to this idea of creating something that would be much simpler that would allow a broader community to access defy and access multiple protocols and it now proves to be the case so essentially it's impossible to to do everything yourself uh in like if you first come to a website like i know yieldfarming.info you would have zero clue what's going on there um but uh yeah so we essentially helped people to to get their hands on d5 and start up the d5 journey and

continue their different journey as they scale up and find more opportunities elsewhere that website is legit i think it's yield farmer.info really solid site like super cool how it connects you to your metamask and then to the protocol i was doing it for yams and i'm just like i'm refreshing it every five minutes to see what that hourly roi is just like it's super cool site yeah it is it is i do like the new the front end of yam as well kind of fresh and made of emojis you know uh in in the yeah what's with all these these these fruit and vegetable coins i think defy itself is turning into a meme in a way

with the recent growth and and now it feels like compound was ages away yeah but it was kind of like what two months i don't even remember which or three max three months away that's kind of what sparked the whole like craze of default like have you guys seen a total influx of users after that whole comp thing came about and the platform was launched and whatnot absolutely uh the that's the an easy answer we grew six times so in july's numbers we were six times more than may so it was crazy growth and it's still happening so it's still going it's not as fast as it was in july but it's still it's still pretty wild i would say and i

don't know how how much more the new yield farming opportunities would bring but d5 is definitely getting super hot right now and how is that affected the day to day at zirion like you know what was your day-to-day maybe when you were first getting started and then you know when compound you know what what did you see that that changed and then you know transitioning now with yams and we fee you know how is your day-to-day change once again yeah that's that's a great question things are are indeed different these days than than they there were before so essentially just to give you an example we were out for a few days for like three days uh last three days we were out for our friend's bachelor's party and so he's getting married and all of the management team

we were out for a few days and like i just came back today and uh the whole thing is you know like with the yams just launched and a bunch of other things happened already i'm like already too late for many things and and you know and and the new listings are just constantly hitting our uh backlogs so people are just requesting a bunch of new stuff that we haven't ever heard about uh and which is making like you know 10x uh returns in like two days so it's getting kind of crazy um but it's a good feeling you know we're growing we're trying to serve our users as much as we can and as fast as we can try not to fall as we

as we do frequently now as we're having much higher load but yeah it's it's great to be living through this space and great to be prepared because yeah we were kind of waiting for this moment and anticipating the the growth but i didn't know when exactly it's going to happen so my kind of gut feeling was let's try to not think about it let's try to build something that would work and that would allow us to scale and then yeah whenever it comes we will be prepared so we are prepared by 95 i would say yeah yeah so what's the team like like what is the team structure kind of like and like you know due to this upburst in demand any sort of new traffic like are you guys hiring are you guys looking for help where are you at as far as the team goes

yeah so the team we kind of settled on the team half a year ago right after we announced our round but now we are definitely facing some uh lack of resources so we're thinking about hiring more people in terms of like how the team currently looks like we are uh 13 people and i think 11 are full-time yeah 12 actually now yeah 12 we are full time and all remote right all throughout or in cool everyone is remote we did try for like uh about a year and a half ago we did try to do to be no not remote for a bit but it didn't really work so i mean it's kind of wasting a lot of time on commuting back and forth so we just we were initially

remote because i was in the us studying and my other co-founders they were in other places so we just started like that and that continued to be the case and we just i think developed the it's part of the company culture right now to be remote and that's that played out nicely in the recent events we didn't even notice any impact on the productivity on our side and you mentioned you you had just recently decided to uh raise your round can you talk a little bit more about that and maybe the next steps that you see for ethereum uh we we haven't decided on the dates yet so we didn't raise our first round a year ago and announced it like about half a year ago in last december uh but now with the current growth we're

thinking of raising it on the ground and it feels like it's a good time right now to do that and the the ecosystem is this kind of proving itself which we were waiting for so that validation is definitely sparking interest in investors so we are getting a bunch of people reaching out and uh restarting the conversations from our past interactions or just like some new folks are asking if we have a token and right yeah i was gonna say when's the zerion token coming out like what's going on how do you feel about that are you are you on the side of being tokenless like would you like to keep it like that or do you see a future where there could be a governance token or uh like a utility token that is used on the

platform um like what are your thoughts on that as far as like like a tokenization of the world goes but like in zerion's case that's uh that's a really good one um we we kind of entered the market when the when there was like a huge bear and a bear market and everything was just going down constantly and we kind of developed this understanding that it's actually easier and better for the company to be in equity because it first attracts better investors and allows people to retain value and it's less speculative and more fundamental space yeah it's less scammy too yeah so that's uh that's the mentality but at the same time i do recognize the the importance of tokens and i'm a

huge fan of you know of governance tokens and overall moving from outdated kind of antique and form of capital which is equity and moving into tokenized versions of that and i think we are pretty much getting there with stuff like compound governance it's essentially getting to the to the point where it can be compared to equity in one way or another so i'm getting kind of really excited about all that process and eventually i think that's going to be inevitable that we convert all the syrian shares into equity at some point but in terms of the utility tokens we will only launch stuff that we think makes sense that we think is not purely speculative or just for fun uh we'll launch it if we see the the

real utility behind that so we're contemplating different plans if we are if we all agree uh on something we'll we'll let people know that's awesome solid yeah i don't know how i feel about the token thing you know like it's like it's like speculative and kind of sketchy but then it's also like isn't that kind of what it's supposed to be all about like the governance and giving the community that ability to kind of vote and have their say yeah i i definitely agree with that yeah and it sounds like you know even though a company might start initially with equity in offering a private sale they can transition into into a decentralized you know network and a more open model which sounds like xeron is open to can you talk a little bit about that offering that you have

for year round like what is the business model of xerion on the face of it it doesn't charge for anything so i'm kind of curious how zirion makes money and you know if they do plan to have a round like or you guys already have had a round so how you know are you making that offer to investors yeah uh let me first i just wanted to add to the previous point about uh transitioning from shares to tokens i kind of view that closer to becoming public because you cannot control anything that happens on the secondary market right after you go and announce your token so essentially i think similar rules uh not only a formal sense but similar rules should apply if you are going public so essentially

when you feel like that the company is performing to the extent that is first safe for investors and it's it's generating uh revenue by itself without like a speculative demand that's uh i think the right time to start transitioning or or somewhere close and i think the compound was on the right track with that so they were generating not a lot of revenue but some revenue and they kind of did transition to the open model and kind of decided okay it actually felt like an ipo case for them so that just to add to the previous point in terms of the business model so essentially i would say here that startups are more about growth especially in the early stages it's it's less about generating money as of right now and uh it's more about growing fast

so that that's essentially what we were selling on our first round to the investors as the space is growing and yes it's very unclear right now how people are ever going to make money out of this but the space is so exciting you cannot miss the opportunity to you know capture users here and and create companies in this space so i think that's is still the case it is i think what what what has proven to be the most successful business model is just to launch a token uh in quotes uh i i would prefer not to go on that route uh right away so it's kind of like you know a safe um kind of like a hedge that all people have in the space let's just launch a token but

i think it's it's a bit short minded so essentially we we are thinking of more sustainable ways to monetize and one of them is already backed in the defy sdk i don't know if you want to go to into details on how it works but in reality d5 is the case is a middleware that we created to interface with different protocols in the device space so the business model that is baked in there is that people who are monetizing their integrations through d5 sdk they pay a commission to the xerian to xero and as a developer of d5 sdk so essentially if you want if you have like a wallet or you have an exchange or another another default interface if you want to have access to different protocols and you want to

have interactions with different protocols at the same time you are charging your users for that service it's a one percent commission so twenty percent of the profit go to syrian so that's uh that's the business model we are um that's but it's only one that we are evaluating so it's already part of the defi sdk but the interactive version is on um the audit right now so it's it's going to be live sometime in august or september and we'll see if other people are going to integrate defy sdk as well and see how it goes yeah that's a really interesting thought the kind of idea to create a non-profit in quotes protocol that you can either choose to govern with a token right and so that you can have this asset you can have a pre-mine

if you want so you can pay out the founders and the team right and then you can launch it publicly and it's still you still have this protocol that is still not for profit now obviously there's a whole you know plethora of ways to make money with it but this idea in d5 of either having a token or not what's really stood out to me compared to like the traditional world is that compound ave zarion while they are all different they all kind of follow that same idea of like we are here to kind of help the greater community if you will by providing this resource it's not necessarily for profit but there is revenues and there is a monetization strategy that comes off of it but it's not necessarily at the expense of the user which is really interesting in terms of like a shift from what we do

currently with all businesses out there yeah i would say here that it's um i think that that's the property of nations markets in essence if if you think of the internet in the beginning people didn't have a clue so first of all there was mainly scientists uh sitting out there and trying and experimenting with html and like sending papers over uh wires to each other so yeah people were like first they were not looking to monetize that at all and they didn't even know how exactly are they going to monetize that so i think something similar isn't happening in d5 so it's a very nasty market people have zero clue how it's going to work it changes every two months to a completely different uh landscape and that means essentially that if you are

trying to extract some rent as a company or as a like yeah as a company in the space you are doomed uh because uh like people just gonna leave you and like other other companies are going to emerge so i think that's collaborative spirit that is driving the the ecosystem right now is great and uh it's going to continue but only up until the point when the market becomes like big and uh that's the point where people be thinking of making more money rather than you know helping each other out so how how are you planning for the future like that you mentioned zirion has some interactive functionality that's coming out in august or september what are those new functions and kind of how do you see those developing

yeah that essentially is part of our large roadmap i kind of think of it in three stages so we currently have uh monitoring which is or tracking of different defy assets so we support essentially almost every protocol out there so that's the first big piece that we have already covered but from tracking we move into execution and then to best execution so execution is already part of zero so yes you can do some execution on there and we we use let's say for the boring we use maker and compound for deposits we have compound compounded for trading we have zero x integrated which is already giving users a better quotes but essentially what we are aiming for is to

have a good understanding as a product understanding of what's the best way to execute specific transactions and what are the options available to the user to execute anything so let's say you open and that is part of like the whole redesign that happened just recently so in the new design you can go to any asset you can click on like any asset in your portfolio or even search for new ones and you'd land on the page uh with this asset with the performance and everything so the next step would be it would just look like you would see on the right you would see all the options that you can do with this uh asset so first starting with just purchasing it and then moving on to you know staking uh

or oh wow yeah but that so brings it all into one yeah that's the one you can like choose exactly that's the that's like the best execution part so uh buying as well so even so the concept here is that even price aggregators like one inch or zero x they sometimes are not the best way to execute a trade because of the gas fees and that i think is going to just escalate even more so for some trades just using union swap by itself is a better deal rather than going to any aggregator because they would add a layer of complexity in the front so we would try to be you know to provide the best thing for the user in terms of the spending and like how much

tokens they would get so that's the ultimate goal so correct me if i'm wrong but now xerion starts to look a lot like you know one of these protocols like yiffi or yams where it kind of arbitrages between different opportunities but what's really cool about xerion is it's all transparent you can pick and choose what you want to do it sounds like it xerion is presenting you the option of oh look there's a better opportunity over here for some more yield you know go and go and interact with it if you want whereas iffy and yams they're kind of like that black box that's doing it for you do i have a good understanding there yeah i think i think that's right so i usually think of it as protocols versus interfaces

and the big difference here is that protocols they are essentially limited to their own protocol from most of the times essentially what i mean by that is that let's say yeah as an interface and as a protocol they are interested in growing tvl in yam ecosystem but for a defy interface like us it doesn't really matter so we're not attached to any specific token or any specific protocol so for us we're uh i'm like an unbiased uh we can provide users with an unbiased view of let's say opportunities or apys and uh because of these people who are building the protocols they have the incentives of like you know maybe even tweaking the

apy such that it shows a higher number but yeah keeping the users on their bottom yeah exactly yeah and the money locked in yeah plus that kind of has the incentives to to make a riskier protocols and we have seen that recently so more riskier and riskier protocols and assets are appearing which is which is fine as long as there is you know demand for that but uh i'm just worried a bit about the whole ecosystem collapsing and a lot of people losing money so we we can act as you know as an unbiased arbiter of the the space and that's i think it's a good thing so yeah that that allows you guys to be a tad more flexible and as you said unbiased

when it comes to that kind of stuff like which protocols you would like to use like the truth almost to what the rates are right because the like you said there's no really incentive there to fiber to lie now these these new protocols that we're seeing pop up just wi-fi and yam in particular yams completely unaudited wi-fi is audited but both have been launched with just a medium post and a simple interface and a governance community that says their tokens worth zero their tokens are now trading you know hundreds of thousands of dollars you know where do we go with this this is for you rob or genie like how do we take this idea of open finance and decentralization and like kind of put a tad of security and like end user

you know because like obviously it's our own money right we can do our own research but how do we take this idea of open finance and kind of you know put it in a place that is accessibly safe for hundreds of millions of users rather than just you know the small amount of people who are high uh risk thrown right like who are down just throw money in like how do we take this idea and kind of make it more safe and secure you know that's been on my mind a lot recently as far as this goes yeah that's uh that's a tough one and uh we've been thinking about that a lot and actually our investors were asking us about like the compounding risk of different primitives stacked on top of each other but the reality is that we because we are

directly interfacing with these different protocols we are not exposed to a compounding risk of these protocols but protocols themselves started to compound different components so essentially like yfi is comprised of you know y tokens which are using multiple different platforms to manage yield so that's that is already like a five different platforms combined uh as a risk and the and then the synthetics is doing something similar so like the protocols are getting bigger in a sense so they're just like absorbing different components and pieces of the d5 puzzle becoming more and more risky and that makes them more secure though right like while you're saying that you think

that makes them more risky the way i viewed is kind of if there's more money locked up and there's more things aggregated within say the snx platform or the token to me that that signals that there's more there's more users that are willing to put in the funds so the greater community as a whole is stronger thus more secure now do you think that's wrong i would say it's it's kind of the opposite so the assets are really yeah and my views are the assets are just they're trying to generate as much yield as possible and uh sometimes not thinking much about the security side of things or these funds are pretty coming from sophisticated people who did their research but the reality is that like the larger the pi the the easier i mean the the better target it is for the hackers

it's more people are looking into the code and like looking into hacking this whole thing and if you have you know 10 different components each of them being not so audited or like only partially worried that you have this additional layered risk that is growing and and that's that's true so that that is what happened with i see um deforest for instance so it was like a naive fork of compound but uh essentially because of because of their lack of knowledge of the underlying compound protocol to like a certain extent they were listing assets that were dangerous in a way and that led to you know this the the whole piece collapsing because you can steal other assets from the protocol so and bzx was not the same i would say but

but still like uh yeah yeah so hacks would definitely uh will be continued it will continue to happen like all this aggregation it gives the like the surface area if you will of the attack basis like it makes it much larger it makes it it makes it so much easier just kind of like poke a hole yeah yeah but at the same time go time i think of it like a tree and because a lot of these protocols are stacked on top of each other you have the roots at the bottom and then you know that might be compound curve the basic one synthetics balancer you know the the ones that everyone that the aggregators plug into right and then you got wi-fi yams and these other ones that stack on top and use those roots as

the protocols yeah so if the roots are bad the entire tree is going to come crashing down you know you need you need those strong units because most of those layer two layer three solutions to generate more yield are just forks of you know the the previous protocols yeah so like if if one of the roots went down it'd be a cascade in terms of this tree and the way that it's going right now this tree is not growing in a linear fashion this tree is going freaking mount everest mode right now bran legit yeah yeah i think i think a good example of how that can collapse is curve using white tokens in white pool and then white tokens they use uh they

rebalance between ave compound dydx and something else so essentially if any of these underlying four components loses money the the y token would lose let's say one fourth roughly or like depending on the current allocation would lose this amount of money instantly and that means all the curve token holders would also lose that huge chunk of their money so yeah that is you know that's why it is really important to audit the roots and other parts of the ecosystem but at the same time what is good about it and why it is better than the actual you know the normal finance is that uh these are not paper contracts these are this is code that can be tested that can be audited

and at some point we'll reach the state that like you know state of art governance model modules state of arts tokens as we kind of already did and then as they're going to continue and merge people like these pieces will become more and more fail safe and you can safely use them as like oh let's let's just build a new system you kind of combine a few pieces together without worrying too much and it works so we'll get there or we're not there yet something interesting that i think is coming soon right always coming soon but it's how ethereum 2.0 and scaling is going to play into that as you know that becomes integrated if that is one of the most base routes you know and and it's going to be just

newly launched you know what are some problems that we could face kind of what do you see down the road as ethereum 2.0 eventually comes out and becomes integrated i'll tell you what right now the biggest problem is 200 gray gas i'm trying to farm on i'm trying to have fun on yemen i'm paying 20 just to withdraw some yams what's going on here man my my extension shows 249 for the fast transaction pretty soon it's gonna cost one ethereum just to send one ethereum yeah i because i was late for the party i only started farming yeah i'm today oh you do you know i'm still waiting for my for my return to be higher than the the

gas fees i paid yeah it took a few hours last night when yams was a hundred bucks now now it's taking a few days or a few few weeks i guess no it's almost there i think and maybe it's already more than that i can i can check but we are on the podcast are you um if you don't mind me asking are you farming comp or which one what like which uh which asset uh i was just farming uh what whatever i had on my wallet so which was maker maker um which yeah it was like 30 today or something yeah yeah that was a good one so wait rob did you ask about uh the scaling solutions kind of how that's

going to play and what what challenges we think yeah so how do you how do you see that affecting these roots for the good or for the bad and then how you see it affecting syria that's that's a good question so we've been spending quite some time recently thinking about that how how we are planning to with with the gas costs like that it's it's essentially impossible it kind of becomes like a threat for the whole ecosystem and uh yeah it becomes like a rich people play which is uh an opposite of what we were here for so that's why we were thinking a lot about you know is 2.0 and other scaling solutions and we started talking with with existing ones in order to like see what is the way the way out how do we get people to use

it for much cheaper than um what is currently available and and yeah so essentially i think of ethereum 2.0 as you know it's going to be a big rebuild of the infrastructure in some sense because it's kind of like multiple blockchains running in power that we have to support but they are going to be you know compatible uh with the existing echo system so i think that's uh that's what already removes part of the challenge yeah i'm i'm really excited to see what's going what's going to be on the dream 2.0 i was reading this article by from dragonfly uh on bank list and that was a pretty good one when he talks about different you know kind of these islands uh or

kind of like land that uh have you seen yeah i read that one too the farm and the cities and the types of transactions that are gonna go through super interesting i really like that analogy and i think that's the easiest way to think about it and the device is going to be you know this manhattan style uh yeah city so for the users or i'm sorry for the listeners who don't understand that quick analogy real quick effectively what it is saying is there's going to be quote unquote areas of transactions on ethereum that are going to be more like a city where there's going to be a lot of rich people quote unquote or big funds who are using these for big transactions that need to get it done quickly they'll be having like a good amount of transactions

per day or per year per week and they'll be willing to pay these expensive fees for you know as you would pay for a high class shot of tequila as for 26 dollars in new york city it's the same kind of thought process towards paying those high gas fees then you've got like the rural farmers areas which is on the complete opposite side you know so folks who are kind of just using it for a day-to-day thing so you know not anything crazy i guess like a few little transactions here there some farming of yield and then you've got in the middle which is kind of like the best of both worlds where you'll get like you know a medium-sized transactions a medium pace you know and all sorts of different uses but effectively there's going to be like the city areas on one

shard of ethereum 2.0 which is going to be one out of 64 i think that will have a super high gas high paced transactions everything fast in the cities and then all the way in the rural you'll get the you know on a different shard slow transactions small gas fees that kind of support a different use case what else did i miss there i think you covered it pretty nicely one thing one example i would add so you covered the who is going to use the manhattan kind of shards but one example of people who might be of like company that might be interested in using the the farmlands is something like uh oracles that would be just posting uh different price fees let's say on on like with very very cheap transaction costs when the speed doesn't

really matter when you know you're only worried about uh storage and that that's kind of that's yeah solid so i think we're about out of time here we got about two more minutes left rob if you have any any rapid fire questions or anything else we can get them going i've got a few on my mind if you like yeah why don't you start us off okay cool cool so i'm gonna ask you a few questions you can answer them if you like you can pass it if you don't want to and yeah a sentence or two answer or just a word or two would be great so we'll start off ethereum killers in 2020 ada eos cosmos are they going to stay are they here to go dead what's going on um my opinion didn't change much so um

i kind of learned that with the bitcoin and the theorem so people were saying that ethereum is going to die and it just takes a 10x or even more than that improvement plus the network effect so these two things are crucial for the success of the crypto network and uh none of the folks you mentioned have that cool if you had to pick one celebrity to pitch the the idea of defy and zerion 2 who would it be and why uh let me think that's a really good question so let's say um i would love if ray dalio could pitch d5 to fox but i i know him that he is kind of against

the whole um the whole thing so that's that's a bummer that would be cool though that would be cool um so my last one is top 10 coins for d5 give me two coins that you think are going to be in the top 10 in the coin mark cap by the end of the year i would pass on this one i'm not making predictions okay okay cool no worries rob all right i got one but he said he's not going to make predictions um i'll still ask it anyway sure wi-fi flips bitcoin in price by the end of the year yes or no um flips and price that's likely it's at 5000 now i think that's possible yeah

i did not like it it's possible yeah okay oh it is possible [Music] cool stuff cool stuff well guys we'll wrap this up by saying none of this is financial advice we are here to educate you all and to have a good time we really enjoy this we're going to soon have a bunch more stuff for you sponsors and all sorts of cool content coming out edgy we really appreciate you coming on man you shared a lot of quality insights from me and rob i know i learned a lot and i had a good time and yeah thanks evan love to have you on again sometime so thank you guys it was a great time all right guys alrighty guys you guys take it easy and uh we'll see you on on the next episode yeah and check out syria xerion dot io of course we'll plug it all the way up

[Music] thanks for listening to the d5 by design podcast until next time defy slate team you