DeFi By Design EP#48: DeFi for Everyone w Avalanche Rush

Transcript

[Music] d5 slate team [Music] what's up y'all real quick if you like the d5 state content on twitter and youtube and sub stack please please give us a like and a subscribe on this video on youtube and join our channel join the community we'd really appreciate it we're pumping this stuff out for you all as much as we can and we really enjoy the support and the community that we've built thank you very much enjoy what's going on guys welcome to episode 50 of the d5 by design podcast and we are here today with jay from avalanche jay has been leading the marketing

charge at avalanche which is definitely something that we'd like to discuss there's a lot of projects going on right now with a lot of marketing a lot of just a lot of everything seems to be happening right now and right now the alternative layer one chain is kind of in a space race as far as growing users we had a a period where arbitrary and optimism were supposed to launch and now the the alternative layer ones are kind of like our layer two i do believe arbitram as you're going to be hearing this in a few weeks from the time that we actually record it should be live and up with a good bit of projects launched but for now it is the uh alternative layer one anti-aetherium maxi race and uh we are pushing forward right now with um yeah

just a whole lot of development happening so in this podcast we're gonna go over what's happening on avalanche how to get involved on the yield farming there what's going on with um available rates uh protocols what you can get into kind of how their team has been building and the marketing overall what jay's thoughts are about this l1 space race how to take advantage of it as an investor and a user and kind of how to how to manage your risk through this uh through entire process of d5 and kind of what the what what the future of of the vision of this d5 is going to be now that we've got kind of a more developed ecosystem than even just six months ago right um so looking forward to kind of hearing about all of this uh and diving more into what's going on at avalanche with the avalanche

rush program um there's 180 million dollars worth of incentives being deployed there over some amount of time so that's going to be exciting uh to dive deeper into as well and learn more about so pass it over to rob and uh we'll get it off the ground yeah yeah definitely still stoked to have you on jay and um you know there there's so much action going on at avalanche la you know as andy said it it's really a space race as in terms of these other layer ones um you know people refer to them as ethereum killers and and this and that but ultimately it's these competing blockchains and they're building the multi-chain together so yeah i'm keen to kind of get into kind of what that multi-chain looks like and and kind of

this encompassing world of different layer one solutions um so yeah you know we we now see that layer ones have the possibility for layer twos as well and um kind of just how that stack evolves um yeah i i i'm kind of like interested and and uh you know you you got a nice spot at avalanche so um i'll pass it over to you and let you introduce yourself yeah thanks guys really excited to be here uh let me just quickly get into my background before we kind of cut into some of the overviews with avalanche so with my background have been in crypto for almost since the beginning starting with the bitcoin um kind of interaction there in 2011 that's when stumbled in a little bit accidentally i would say like

like most people probably when they first interact with bitcoin and not until the ethereum white paper came out with italic really evangelizing that work did i kind of did it did it kind of click in my head saying okay i think this is more than just payments this could be something um larger than what we're seeing on the bitcoin side and that's what really piqued my interest and in 2015-16 i was at an agency called ogilvy one of the biggest agencies in the world it's a full-service shop started my own uh blockchain consultancy shop there focused on marketing and brandt alongside three other folks there so we were doing that for about a year and change and what we saw was a lot of interest

both from the the larger institutions who wanted to play in blockchain but you also saw some interest with startups especially the ones that got really well capitalized during the ico boom and just the token sale mechanism that really got introduced during that era and soon after uh switched roles to a firm called fluidity fully in the blockchain space two main main work streams there one was with the decentralized exchange called airswap that is now metamask swaps so you are interacting with that right now and that a lot of my former colleagues and really good friends are on that metamask team and then also on the flip side we were working towards security tokens i would say without getting into too much of that detail maybe we could

talk about it later if it comes up but it was a little early so i think it was just a lot of learning and honestly incredible experience i would never trade that for the world incredible team a lot of the the guys on the fluidity side are doing bigger and greater things there and then most recently joined ava labs avalabs is a company that's working on the avalanche blockchain so that's what you guys were talking about earlier and that's where i'm leading marketing since uh may 2020 and that's that's kind of grown quite significantly i was the first and second higher in the marketing team we kind of came in at the same time that's why i say first and second and now we're about i think i want to say like 30 30 40 including community managers and the community side of things

so that's where we are now and i think a lot of the work that we've done uh kind of culminates to the conversation now but also some things aren't even public yet so i think maybe in a follow-up episode there there's probably a lot more to unpack and i think what we're uh what i'll lead off with with kind of the intros bit is avalanche is the the fastest smart contracts as as measured by transaction finality or settlement the reason why that's super important is because you have these smart contract systems you have many of them the layer ones being the biggest in terms of user base it has to be comparable or better than web 2 systems otherwise beyond the circles of of likely the

people that are listening um also people on this call you're not going to get that that kind of mainstream appeal it's just not going to happen because we're humans who require instant gratification and technology should absolutely keep up or surpass those expectations and so we feel like if we built the system from the ground up all the way down to the consensus protocol then we can really unpack a lot of amazing things and i think that's kind of like if you were to build a house you wouldn't necessarily want to continue to do renovations if it was already deteriorating in its foundation you would really want to take a look at the foundation and make sure that that's solid before you continue to build up in this very fast-paced world so gonna stop

there in terms of intros and i think we can get into some some interesting topics yeah so so right away you kind of talk about the consensus layer as the base layer and changing or putting out a different thing that's you know not broken almost referring to ethereum in that way could you kind of you know bring us from an ethereum maximalist perspective into kind of uh this multi-chain ecosystem how you see those chains fitting together and ultimately you know there there was only ethereum how did how did we get to this point and um is it sustainable yeah i think it's not neces the the multi-chain kind of direction um smart contracts enabled or not has

always existed since uh or after bitcoin i would say once bitcoin came along i you basically saw a lot of these groups of developers other developers who were probably part of that core who were like hey i have a better idea and that's kind of the the beauty of of open source technology you can really take what's already been worked on and you don't have to start from scratch and you can leverage some of that information and really see if you can change things for the better so with peer-to-peer payments you really saw that in like 2015 2014 even and also you really really saw that in the 2017 ico run where you had all these payment chains think about bitcoin then bitcoin cash litecoin and the list goes on and then you had dag where people

were like well linear um blockchain or blockchains that are sorting things in in a linear fashion i guess all blockchains are linear but uh consensus reached in a linear fashion or transactions finalized sorry in a linear faction fashion that doesn't actually have to be that way if the order doesn't matter so for example payments payments doesn't have to have a after or like x z y and z it can go in any order so long as it gets sent and received so you have implementations of the directed acyclic graph which doesn't take into order um into its design and says hey let's just prioritize speed avalanche has a dag um other ones i think worth mentor that i know about the top my head

actually don't know terribly how how uh strong they are these days but um nano i know that's a pretty big dag uh they were like iota i think was was gonna do that i'm not sure where they're at these days the point being there's a bunch of people trying the trying to create the solution for that problem and with smart contracts you're having the same thing unfortunately with smart contracts you do need that order because that's it it has dependent dependencies and an order is important for for these executions and so similar way all these smart contract uh kind of developers and and designers they were looking at ethan and saying well maybe there's a better way to do this and better is always kind of subjective in this point it's not

really clear what better really is in the long run but i think everyone has an idea so with avalanche we're saying hey we can improve a lot of these things not only within ethereum but also other other chains that are pretty prominent and then from there our biggest strength is transactionality like i said before and so that's what we're kind of pushing in the forefront so people really understand who we are um as a team one of the teams building uh avalanche and i think to kind of answer the initial question of how do we get here it's just it's just kind of the innovative cycle you have a lot of people kind of joining in the race and i think everyone has a shot at it that's what's really cool about our space and so to me i come from the ethereum space too first

and foremost maximalism is is such a short-sighted way to look at things i understand that there is uh vest there is best interest in a lot of the technologies that um leverage blockchain because of the tokens but at the end of the day it it kind of stifles yourself and it stifles this very small space that still has so so so much to grow and there's almost a piece for everybody or maybe not maybe not everybody but for a lot of people um and i think that's how we got here and hopefully in the future interoperability would be the next step to really make sure that we all have this collaborative ecosystem instead of having these siloed pockets of liquidity and then i think lastly with with interoperability then making sure that we have proper composability not like a

million and one wrap tokens but perhaps one uh standard where the user sees something but then underlying it is all the kind of wrapped assets that we're probably interacting with right now yeah and preferably yield bearing assets as the typical standard so you know staked eve and um you know even like uh interest-bearing bitcoin via badger or you know stick sta vax where where it's avex that is staked and always earning yield rather than just the like the bear asset now obviously that introduces more complexities but again just like more and more of this is just it it's just broad ecosystem growth um and yeah i mean the interoperability as well as

you mentioned is is is huge one thing that is going to be the most bullish thing i think in the entire d5 space the next 18 months or something i'm saying the most bullish thing is cross-chain aggregators so like how can we get one inch to like get liquidity from every deck on every exchange and you just have to go to one place at one time and do the trade that would be insane and you can choose like where it goes or what wallet it's from right you know so that i think that interoperability is going to be huge and right now we kind of have the island of ethereum and it's people are being pushed off of this island let's call it manhattan because it's expensive to live in manhattan everything is clogged and there's a whole lot of people and a whole lot of

crap going on that you know you can just go out to long island and to boston into you know australia and new zealand and get better access to what you need and these you know this is the avalanches the phantoms the polygons right and so we're kind of building this moat around you know ethereum at the same time and then these all these can then interoperate with each other as well so to avoid having to go through manhattan to go to a different location right so i think that's that's going to be a really interesting trend to follow as as well and i think it's something to to to discuss is why are people why leave ethereum well you leave manhattan because it's busy and there's way too many people and way too much traffic and it's too expensive kind of the same thing is happening on the blockchain

right now ethereum is too busy gas is too high there's too much going on prices are you know just way too much for the average user so people are going elsewhere but even more importantly there's incentives elsewhere and that's what's happening right now as to why d5 boom d5 2.0 is kind of coming back it's these liquidity incentives that are being introduced to platforms like avalanche so walk us through how we got here for avalanche rush what was the thought process behind that right how how are you guys growing that and building that onboarding d5 protocols and then i'd like to get into some of the nitty-gritty of like how are we going to avoid liquidity locus how are you going to grow a longer term community he's just not here for the yields and leaving how are you going to you know keep keep um the inflation down

and you know keep you know keep the token prices kind of handled so there's a lot of token economics too but first let's dive into what avalanche rush is how our community can get involved how it started and what's happening right now and then let's get into some of the nitty-gritty yeah let me overview what avalanche rush is so avalanche rush is an incentive program focused on the d5 ecosystem holistically um and d5 with an avalanche avalanche's context of course but there are other non-native protocols that are coming over and that's what's making it interesting and so when we announced it we said 180 million um dollars in incentives holistically um with with kind of like the foreseeable program to as it runs the thing that has happened which

you're seeing with any type of announcement this size so polygon i believed in incentive program phantom and cello just announced one recently is you have a lot of excitement but that's not that's not the long-term strategy the long-term strategy is what's following the announcement of course is exciting and naturally with crypto people will get very excited and i think um that's what brings in the initial burst of energy and how we got here was avalanche mainnet launched in september 2020 so not or actually almost a year ago but that's not terribly a long time actually comparatively to everybody else and so what we had to do from then to about spring was make sure that we can set up all of the primitives as kind of the base layer and what we

started to see was automated market makers dexes um kind of slight variance of those with farms some of them are implementing more kind of recent innovations like auto compounding mechanisms single-sided liquidity pools for yields uh just more more advanced strategies than just a single swap right and so we saw that but unfortunately beyond price discovery that doesn't really do much except create a bunch of marketplaces to trade back and forth in um and obviously provides great arbitrage opportunities but that's for a very small subset of users and so the next phase was really saying okay what else do we need to make this valuable to like the mainstream defy users i'll put it in air quotes and

that means let's get lending on board let's get some of the more uh fruitful endeavors maybe nft marketplaces too because that's pretty hot these days and so that's what we were focusing on since the springtime all the way to now and through through the foreseeable future rush is that catalyst to really bring people in to say hey just try out this product the the the parallel i've been drawing is i don't know if you guys remember this but early days of ride sharing ever there was like 10 different ride sharing apps and all of them were throwing around money like no other of course of course there's going to be kind of like the i guess like the incentive kind of locus as you put it um and and they're going

to come in and they're going to game and they're going to hop around there's not going to build that brand loyalty but if you have certain strengths that are better than the competitors then you might have that competitive edge already so we firmly believe at avo labs that when you try the ecosystem at avalanche and really use all of the familiar uh tools especially if you've come from ethereum space so yeah i was gonna say jay like i've been just i've been djing last like two weeks on avalanche and i mean i've i've kept my funds there right there exactly i can i can hold my ethereum there still if i want to hold my theory i can do my bitcoin i can do everything else there and yeah there's new primitives like you're saying auto compounders new types of and even new nfts like avax punks um yeah crypto

seals stuff like that just new things that are coming and it's easy to keep your money or your your crypto assets in in avalanche because why would you go back to the main net because well why and then you know what where else well i guess you could go to other layer ones but as of right now it seems like there's a lot more as you're saying to offer on you know on avalanche and i think the biggest thing was the lending and borrowing that i mean that was huge yeah without benky i don't think avalanche would really you know be as prominent yeah and and to that point andy avalanche is almost built for the defy user and jay you kind of brought that up as like this this higher transaction speed lower cost i mean there's there's so much more to to go back and forth and

you need that when you're powering smart contracts um so the the high frequency trading kind of world of finance and and building that on a decentralized railway infrastructure like that that's almost built for these supporting chains and then you know this ethereum is kind of evolving into a a public chain of some sort like its art and its culture and it's like history and and there's there's applications for ethereum so like this new like crypto culture but this this financial d5 world is almost being built around ethereum um and and kind of we're now starting to

get the infrastructure to traverse um kind of the the inner core and the outer layers of this this it's not almost like a a chain anymore it's this world of this crypto world yeah yeah and i think the the thing that makes it even more familiar to the average d5 user which likely would have interacted with the ethereum ecosystem at one point another um at least in these early days is that we're keeping it familiar both from the uh defy users side but also the developer side the ethereum virtual machine is very important in the avalanche equation that is running on top of it so basically ethereum but scaled by avalanche consensus is kind of like the layman's way to phrase it and

the reason why that's important is because metamask um truffle sweet for debs uh hard hat all these different solidity focused tools but also kind of like the the the middle of the road d5 infrastructure tools like wallets and things like that those work out of the box on avalanche and you don't have to rescript anything into a different programming language you can just use solidity that's what makes it easy to try and also familiar so grand scheme of things our upper hand right now is ux is it perfect absolutely not and that's what kind of drives us every day to make sure that we can make it better and better and so hopefully in hopefully in q4 of this year we're going to see a lot of those ux improvements come to play

especially as you interact with the protocol but also interact with the dapps themselves so the community is super super strong they also know this to be one of the the most competitive pieces of it and you're you're seeing that already with with something like the avalanche bridge i use that all the time i have plenty of ether assets i still do but sometimes if again i was i was kind of talking about this pre-call but if i'm paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars on on gas fees and and it's it's it's just not it's just not worth it and so would rather just cross over get those swaps done um and you'll see it's it's quite pleasant i think is is the way i would to frame it it's not it's not something that's a little bit a hairy like a lot of the

experimental tech you use your metamask plug it in you pick which asset you want to send over to the bridge and it goes to the same address in metamask just connected to um a different network and so all you have to do is flip the switch and your you have access to those assets and it all shows you how it's done almost kind of like um it's a little bit gamified i think the the ui and that's what makes it really fun i think i would say yeah it's quick it's easy and it's and it's fun to use because you don't pay a lot of gas and you can do 100 transactions in a few days and not worry about it you can get in and out of positions right so for those who haven't tried you can bridge over right you can go on pangolin or trader joe you can put

tokens into lp positions and go to yield yak and and farm with their auto compounder you can go to benky and you know you know deposit some avax or some eath or some bitcoin or whatever it is earn yield and then borrow against that to go and do other things or to go long or to go short um you know all there's a small list of protocols and tokens right now so there there's gonna be a lot of volatility i believe in terms of token prices low market caps small um so you know just kind of be careful with what you're doing there um you know just from just from just just just to make sure that your your portfolio allocations are taken care of but there's there's a small list of protocols and tokens now but i'm sure there's going to be quite a few more um

and yeah i mean those are all opportunities that they can find yield and participate in the ecosystem yield yak and ben key i would check out first and then kind of work your way down through the through the various protocols and tokens and um yeah i mean i'm curious kind of what you're thinking about onboarding some of the native d5 protocols um some of the ave some of the curves i know those are coming um just what the timeline on that is how how the road map is coming and then actually what you think about the valuation of protocols or actually i'll just say that question but it's coming back to me because this is going to be a good one so what's the timeline on the roadmap for ave curve and some other protocols and i'm going to get you a good one yeah so bd teams working hard especially

uh luigi uh he's one of the guys that's leading this effort at least on the business development side he's architected with with our co-founders and also uh the rest of the gang an ex like excellent timeline it's not yet public but what i can say is we are aiming for something within this month to start really rolling these things out um basically we're we're kind of at the point where we're saying hey what kind of incentives can can you guys put up to match this program which pools kind of like the of course interesting part but kind of like the final like intricacies of what this exactly looks like and then with the native protocols we announced um yay games and i think i want to say

i don't know if i don't know yay games and i can't remember what the other hurricane swap or something was was one of the more recent ones maybe maybe yeah okay so so timeline is kind of you know this month next month some more of the typical and native d5 protocols so by the time you guys are listening to this mid-september so you know it'll be coming out soon yeah so my follow-up question for this is um in in d5 we have the the base layer the settlement layer which are the ethereums the avax's um even like the polygons the phantoms even the binance smart chain so you kind of got this layer and then you got the application layer on top which for anybody who's been in d5 for some time is the is the sushi swaps the aves the

curves the unit swaps the yearns right those are like the blue chips like tested lindy effect protocols that people are familiar with and that you know will probably survive for 10 years or longer and if they survive that long they may as well be around forever right so from that perspective bringing these types of protocols to uh these different layers so two avalanche two phantom two finance smart team bringing these on what do you think about the relationship or the competition let's call it a competitive relationship between the native protocols of avalanche so the pangolins the trader joe's the benkies when sushi swap ave and curve come over right what do you

expect users to do and do you expect protocols to um like interoperate kind of how do you see uh that competitive nature happening because from first glance you know you would imagine oh why would you use anything else that's not you know trademarked if you will and trusted like yeah if sushi swap is available i'm using sushi swap right you know so kind of what's your thesis there um you know and and how do you drive value to these native protocols if these vampire protocols if you will that are big are just going to come and take the value from them yeah i think there will be healthy competition i think that's good because then it drives more aggressive innovation i would say

on both sides because you kind of have then you know two three four parties saying hey come to our come to our side it's a lot more fruitful a lot more fun easy to use something like that i don't think i don't think one's necessarily going to win all so what's happening with native projects this isn't just avalanche specific this is any any um kind of smart contract enabled chain that has native versus non-native projects the native ones basically have decided from a business perspective hey it's not worth hedging across all these chains it actually might be more fruitful for us to focus in on one protocol and understand that well and also earn the hearts and minds of the early adopters and so they have that upper hand already from from just being

familiar within that community of course it's a bet because if that ecosystem doesn't take off then you're kind of just trapped in in just one strategy which is part of the game and i think most people who are deciding to to do that do understand that on the flip side you have again what what you're calling um the d5 blue chips here and and those guys are kind of like i kind of have the upper hand in that they have larger user base um usually on the their first chain of deployments so likely eth in this case um but what you're seeing is then they're also saying okay well they know that ethereum because when it gets high highly congested then they're also not getting that as much volume and transaction as they should be because

only the whales are participating and the rest of the world isn't really able to precipitate because of the high transaction fees so they're seeing that uh these new chains like avalanche as a hedge and i think there's strengths in both strategies the hedges sure they're gonna get that trusted credibility but maybe there's something that's better for the early adopters in this new category maybe there's something as trivial as like brand color one of the things that i always like to bring up as an example is think about again ride sharing like i said before but think about any of the brands like coca-cola pepsi it's one of them had to have come before and if if they didn't one of them is always going to be stronger but there's

always healthy competition in that some people pick coke versus pepsi and there is a star stark and strong rivalry that exists between that and i don't drink soda and using that analogy for a second i can't even tell the difference so i don't really know how this actually forms but it's just human nature to have these kind of random preferences sometimes it's tied into logic but other times it's very arbitrary and so i think you're going to see um early days it's just going to be everyone's going to help each other out a little bit and then you're going to start seeing separation this is what happened when uniswap launched in the deck space hayden humble eager to learn comes into our space says i have this cool idea where we can create liquidity pools on a x times y

equals k curve and then all of a sudden all these large large dexes like bancor for example had raised a ton of money in a bunch of others they were saying or they they were kind of losing mindshare and look at where uni swap is now right and so i think you're going to see that same formation with these early chains yeah and my my kind of understanding based off what you're saying is there's kind of two bets here there's the bet of the blue chip which is betting on the protocol to survive and to grow and to expand across every chain and to just be omnipresent and everywhere available for all d5 users and that that bet is less so on a specific chain and more so on the team

and the community of that protocol and then you've kind of got the bet of say a pangolin which is only on avalanche right so you're kind of betting more so on avalanche than you are paying gold because while the pangolin community and team needs to do well to execute and they have to and it's in their roadmap and they have to keep growing and expanding on avalanche to provide the best experience if the avalanche you know doesn't do anything if avalanche ceases to grow its mindshare pangolin sees us to grow its mindshare yeah so betting on these native chain protocols is almost a concentrated bet on the l1 itself almost like a higher beta bet and then betting on blue chips as a protocol is less so on a specific chain more so a

concentrated bet on that team and that protocol to continue to do well um so it's just kind of an interesting thesis to be able to spread those out between multiple types of investments so on ones that you you're really bullish on the avalanche chain boom you know you can find some avalanche only protocols and that'll probably give you a higher beta than something like a unit swap will in terms of market cap and kind of where it's at token wise um so we don't have to get too much of the nitty gritty but that's just a little uh kind of a mental model that seems to be something to look at as far as investing goes yeah i like that jay what you pointed out as far as healthy competition um i i think that's at the heart of it because we're gonna

start to see now there's kind of these alternate layer ones that are giving eth some healthy competition and probably push these to push out um and deliver uh east 2.0 and validator nodes proof of stake model a little bit earlier than maybe it wanted to um so we're getting that continuous and aggressive innovation that that you spoke to um and you know we're now seeing that kind of isolated off into these different layer ones multiple and healthy competition between these different aggregators dexes money markets all within each of these chains um so there's two there's two different groups there and um it is almost kind of like you know these these travelers

those who have the brand identity have more community and are starting to traverse other chains versus the native and and probably more community oriented uh members and you know and you mentioned like liquidity locusts earlier um that you know it's really who is your um loyalty to is kind of the question i asked and saw some of these you know let's just refer to it as liquidity some of this liquidity is um that allegiance is to a blue chip it's to ave it's to sushi and whatnot or it's to a certain chain yeah definitely interesting way to to look at it um you know now that we're on

kind of the blue chip and chain kind of relationship i'm curious what the chain to chain uh competition and relationship looks like jay from your point of view so first off what it like what is your personal vision of the multi-chain defy world um you know coming from avalanche and yourself and then i'll i'd like to dive more into it yeah with with the avalanche strategy it's really ties back to the bridge that that i was referring to earlier the bridge uh without going into too much of the intricacies there's tons and tons of documentation on how it's actually designed but the most important part is it's evm compatible so any evm compatible smart contracts platform you can horizontally scale the interoperability

play there so right now you have ethereum of course but then you could also have i think phantoms evm you you can have other types of evm chains and that's much easier to integrate now that we've proven on mainnet that this bridge works with ethereum um the largest one right now and so you're going to see that start to to kind of expand in its offering and that's on the roadmap so i believe it should be before the end of the year where you're going to see many more chains i think the challenge here is composability i think that's something that the team is very cognizant of and i think that might not be something that gets solved overnight it seems like it actually hasn't even been solved anywhere else to be honest but it seems like people are thinking through how

best to to to work around that perhaps it's it's using something like a curve for example to deal with all of these different wrapped assets um and i think in the long long term uh with avalanches cont in avalanches context you have this capability called subnets and subnets can do a lot of different things but one of the things as it relates to interoperability that it can do is it can help scale other chains like ethereum with the ethereum virtual machine running on it you can have any chain within in a in the context of a vm to then basically leverage avalanche consensus but still operate as it as it was designed in its without without avalanche consensus so

effectively just boosting the performance of of consensus and making sure that it can run so that's actually one use case that we touch on sometimes in conversations that i think it's not quite interoperability interoperability but you can see where it goes if you have all of these different chains that are basically um kind of functioning off of the core avalanche platform then you have this robust ecosystem where it's not quite interoperability bridges but you actually don't need for that you don't need uh interoperability bridges because now you have all of these chains on avalanche and i know other chains are trying to tackle that problem too and so that's something that you've probably heard um of for some time now i i want to continue on kind of the

governance and consensus mechanisms that that you started to touch on there to give people a mental model of kind of how how we can organize this to something familiar think about and andy we were talking about this um yesterday about about cars and kind of the the structure and organization pattern is similar um what annie got a tesla so i'll shield his tesla for him um but this this self-driving aspect the the prompt was really how is a self-driving tesla gonna communicate with a self-driving audi like how the interoperability there is is a question that needs to be solved and we're starting to see this this system where the organization is

these different brands right and and there's blue chips and people have their their brand allegiance but let's think of car car brands as these different chains and then you have these different uh models of cars within each chain right you have a you have a money market you have uh different different models within each chain where do you want to you know put your liquidity so the the analogy isn't perfect but it's a way of kind of organizing these these different um kind of iso ways that these projects have been isolated um so as far as and getting back to kind of the consensus mechanism between these different chains and and different you know maybe their side chains or different projects you know maybe maybe continue to unpack that a little bit as far as what that

looks like once we start to to dive into like side chains um kind of different applications and and more so what that looks like yeah so the the main thing and i won't go into the technicals because there is i i've been actually using this trick uh in recent interviews more so but on the avalanche youtube page there's a three minute clip of goon he's um the uh the ceo of avilabs and also the founder of the avalanche consensus protocol he has a incredible video that explains what it means to have consensus done in a probabilistic fashion instead of deterministic essentially just for this podcast what i'll say is probabilistic allows

avalanche consensus to scale much more rapidly than any other class of consensus model you have two basic families that that preceded avalanche you have nakamoto consensus which we're all familiar with through bitcoin and classical consensus both have strengths but both also have their their fair share of opportunities that's where avalanche comes in and so just one i guess kind of revision is these subnets aren't really like side chains kind of like um like some of the l2 implementations that exist on ethereum but instead they just kind of they do operate with this can operate with the same set of validators that operate the main platform so in this future of all of these different vms running on it and also different uh permission chains too so enterprises and

institutions that's another really strong use case because simply they don't want to lift up their walls of their walled gardens immediately they want to also benefit from a permissionless chain so you're going to have this very seamless ecosystem and that's what we're striving for again time and time again in this conversation you'll find out ux and maximizing that experience is the common theme um should be for all of crypto but absolutely is for avalanche we're not perfect again by any means right now but that's always kind of our guiding light and so in this future i think to take your car model example i think the ev or sorry electric vehicle um kind of segment you have all of these different types of plugs and there's not

really standards across the board and so if you were to take that that analogy and draw it to the chain the chain conversation that we're having you would hope that all of the car companies come together like hey maybe we should just standardize all of this so then we can we can actually create less waste and and make it better for the consumer there's obviously a lot of complexities of politics and things like that but that's kind of more or less what i think should happen and at some future you're going to have people that are saying hey this is all we're all going to win if we all connect and maybe there's a use case for ethereum in some future that's absolutely clear maybe there's a use case for something like polygon in the future maybe there's a use case for avalanche which is

totally different and so that's what we're going to see i think and all of this is moving so fast it's a little bit hard to predict but um i think that's that's kind of the trajectory there sweet yeah thanks for the technical insights as well definitely we'll check out that youtube video to kind of learn more it's it's a little bit tough to to grasp it all um but yeah it's it's it's important to know kind of what what you're getting into from a technical side as a user and as an investor who's kind of into the space now um you know a lot of us are just in the last few months i mean ahead of the curve in terms of getting on to multi-chain world um you know but a lot of people will be onboarded to this multi-chain reality over the coming

weeks and months jay and so there's going to be a lot of confusion a lot of like what's going on here um so you know you're say you're a beginner kind of getting into d5 um you know you're you're not a huge investor a huge believer yet but you're getting in with you know a few thousand bucks or something that you have and you just just been brought up to your attention that um you know using ethereum is kind of pointless but you want to go the you know the custody route you know what are some suggestions that you have for you know anybody who's looking to get into into d5 you know use avalanche or just kind of you know what's that look look like for the for our audience who's listening now who's

kind of just dipping their toes in yeah with avalanche the thing that we're trying to do is make sure that the contract chain um is properly integrated with the major exchanges so then that off ramp from exchange to say like a metamask connected to avalanche is seamless right now um there's i can think of probably ten different exchanges i'll name a few okay coin um that's one that supports avalanche tokens and you can transfer it from okay coin directly to metamask you have uh bitmart coin um gate dot io those are some some of the ones i'll list the rest are on um our website uh avix.network the thing that i would always urge is don't

don't necessarily go to a sprint before you can start crawling or even or walking i think the main thing i always say is move your assets off of that centralized exchange i have personally been a victim of three different centralized exchange hacks so i've obviously learned my lesson i think um and from there you you realize then it's not just this kind of marketplace holistically speaking of crypto it's not just this marketplace of random tokens that that you think don't do anything you then also realize like think about all of your guys's first experience with d5 and even mine too i remember i was like oh my god i didn't realize that metamask is this thing that lets me interact with all of these things i just didn't

understand and the website looked the same so it kind of confused me but what you realize is you're like oh well eth or avalanche you can use those tokens and actually put them to work simple simple things like swaps more complex things like lending and borrowing and all these other things so i would say focus on getting that off the exchange getting into metamask i think the key here is don't put too too much on metamask because it is a hot wallet not gonna get into that details on this conversation but just put in a little bit and then if you're comfortable with that maybe just don't even do anything after that just have it sitting there for a little bit just read through do your own research of what's going on and then if you find something that's interesting and you kind of understand what it is then just use tiny

tiny amounts and on avalanche you don't have to spend that much like anything on gas really you spend cents to a dollar on gas fees and so it's super cheap to try it and you and since crypto assets are divisible beyond the amount that fiat currencies are divisible you don't even have to spend that much money to interact with these things and so just try a swap first and foremost and then from there you're gonna start building the lego the d5 legos being like all right well i get how swaps work now let's see if i understand how auto compounding works and so on and so forth i think linearly a little bit so i think that's usually how i i kind of draw those steps out but that would be my recommendation just start getting your toes wet and see what happens yeah and and we're now starting to see

kind of more um efficient better ux in those on-chain and excuse me uh just on-ramp and off-ramp uh transfers so kind of the the bridge ecosystem um is really kind of bringing this over the line i in terms of uh getting funds into the d5 world and then uh from there navigating between the different chains trying things out trying different swaps um and yeah getting your toes running going from there yeah cool jay one one thing that we ask like each uh each um kind of guest is uh who who would you want to talk to or be stuck in an elevator with um and

pitch avalanche to oh my god wait before i answer that question who is i didn't even look up who was uh before me but who's like who was the most recent episode you guys recorded i think was was it will from diversify yeah those guys yeah what what's will you know will's last name harbour oh yeah yeah yeah i know diversified they had an otc product uh i don't know if they still have it but anyways yeah super random um and then tangent uh so who would i want to be in with an elevator um oh god the problem is is it can't be anyone random because then i have to go through all of the motions of like what

blockchain is and that that's a terrible terribly boring story but uh and it wouldn't be able to happen in a minute yeah right eight stories you know we're not coming down from the empire state building here yeah yeah fair enough so um uh let's see probably maybe i don't know this is a cop out but maybe like mark cuban uh here's why i'll tell you why and i have i have some reasons one he went i went to indiana university he's an indiana university alum so we have that connectivity there we see a little eye to eye i think he also loves indiana basketball i also do too so we have a little bit of like you know ice breaker situation there he's

also obviously a huge defy head so i don't have to whip through the barriers of what we just talked about i can probably cut to the chase and be like hey you guys you know uni swap or you got rugged by that other uh protocol once so you you kind of understand what languages speak and he's he's an incredible uh capitalist he he seeks opportunities he's very open-minded and so that would be my answer yeah just make fun of him for for getting a rug yeah man no i can't believe him i mean if if i make fun of him for getting right he can make fun of me for getting rubbed too mad season tickets by the end of that elevator ride yeah and i and honestly i don't even i don't like the nba that much so that that might be my way to get

into get into the nba uh as a fan right well thanks so much for coming on jay it was an absolute pleasure man and um yeah learned a lot about about avalanche i know our listeners did as well um and yeah man it was it was great awesome yeah this was great conversation thanks guys