DeFi By Design EP#46: Rolling Out Layer 2 with Deversifi

Transcript

welcome to d5 by design where we talk all things blockchain and cryptocurrency while striving to educate empower and enrich andy is a crypto investor and believer since early 2017 after he discovered bitcoin through the university of florida's blockchain club since his time at uf he's founded a few successful internet businesses and went full time into entrepreneurship in 2019 a strong believer in decentralization and fair opportunity andy is aiming to educate empower and enrich as many people as possible through the permissionless system we know as defy rob started playing poker with bitcoin in 2015 and hasn't looked back since discovering bitcoin he dove headfirst

into the world of crypto first by trading then immersing himself in blockchain application decentralization and financial game theory while pursuing a math and philosophy dual major at university he launched a successful algo trading fund and helped push the university blockchain club to new levels our vision is to onboard billions into d5 and totally disrupt the corrupted system of central banks and power as we know it with education we will close the information gap and bring d5 to the masses what's going on guys real quick break for the d5 by design podcast sponsors and a d5 slate sponsors who make this all possible first we have ave a money

market protocol that allows you to borrow and lend and leverage your assets to earn interest uh right so if you want to deposit some stable coins in there currently you can get three four five six eight percent apys on stable coins which else any bank in the world as far as we're concerned you can deposit any ethereum based asset that is listed there borrow against it you can borrow stable coins you can borrow other assets like ether wi-fi link even the ave token itself ave is the go-to protocol for any sort of borrowing lending check it out at app.ava.com the next one we have is auxis auxes is a new crypto wallet auxis.com you can store all of your crypto there they have quite a few options uh they're integrating new dex features soon and

allow you to have a non-custodial way to store your crypto safely off of centralized exchanges and also just not in a meta mask or in your own ledger a bit of extra security there next we have mcdex mcdex is a decentralized perpetual swap protocol basically allowing you to trade on leverage on the ethereum chain right they're coming out with v3 very soon by the time you're listening this might already be out they are super solid team um and they are pumping updates and allowing you to trade decentralized perpetual swaps on eth link and a few others all on ethereum all decentralized so that is mcdex next video ramify is a decentralized stablecoin it's an algorithmic stablecoin that is pegged to the purchasing power of commodities and then basically it measures what value one dollar buys in terms of a commodity

index each week and then it provides you with essentially a store value that allows you to continuously evade inflation while maintaining you know a stable aspect as if it was a dollar and that is the ramify protocol check them out on twitter finally we have diversify it is an l2 decentralized exchange they allow you to basically trade in a gasless and feedless manner big volumes whatever quantities you need it's almost like a centralized exchange on ethereum but you are the custodian they do not hold your coins as a centralized exchange would you have full control full power so really it's almost like centralized exchange capabilities on a decentralized exchange and that is diversified all those sponsors make this possible i know it's a lot to take in but thank you very much for listening

and let's get back to it [Music] what's going on guys welcome to d5 by design podcast here today with co-host robbie of course and will harbor from diversify excited to learn more about what's going on in the layer 2 scaling world things are heating up today is july 13th it was my birthday two days ago i just turned 22 and yeah it's been about a year now through defy slate so it's been a great year and we've been hearing a lot about layer two ever since kind of the creation of defy slay you know what it could bring what the possibilities are and it seems like we're inching ever closer as each day goes by so excited to learn more about what's going on in that realm and

hear from will so pass over to robbie what's going on yeah brother doing well doing well happy birthday i think it is the first podcast we've done since then so definitely been an uh wild ride this past year and i'm stoked for the next year and and even more after that and i think you're right you know layer two has always been talked about since d5 began back then it was almost kind of mythical it was like this possibility this like idealized image of ethereum and d5 that was almost unobtainable because at the time gas was so high and transaction fees were so expensive but now that vision is is becoming a reality with projects like diversify so we talk a lot you know about the

different scaling solutions polygon optimism arbitrarum so those you know i'm sure we'll talk about a bit with will here but also the features and aspects that are enabled through l2 i think we'll get into as well in terms of order book trading and just different abilities that are unlocked once we're we have layer two live so i'll pass it over to will and let him introduce himself and we can kick off this l2 wave thanks very much happy birthday to uh you and happy birthday to the d5 slate it sounds like it's a year going so awesome so i'm will i'm the founder of diversify it's a layer 2 scaling solution but it's very much an application specific layer 2 scaling

solution so as you were saying you know people have been talking about this mythical state of how ethereum is going to scale and often people think of scaling solutions like optimism and arbitrary which are all about deploying i mean and these don't technically exist for most users yet and they're not kind of on on mainnet but allow you to deploy anything any smart contract an application to be used and kind of feel the same as ethereum um really flexible here with diversify we're talking about something a bit different which is application specific so it's really tailored to doing d5 and some very specific applications but it's already here live now so that's the diversifier has been live for a year there are one or two other application specific scaling solutions that have been live

for a year like loop ring which you may have heard of and the and this is kind of the first wave of layer 2 that we're already seeing today we launched it june last year so i'm really kind of just turning one now sweet and so when we hear layer two there's all sorts of different protocols and solutions being rolled out what are kind of the two or three primary layer two solutions available you know in terms of roll-ups or side chains where do you guys fit in there yeah so it's quite a tough question because there are lots of things out there that are at different stages of development some things are on like a test net so you can technically build on them but you know you can't use it with like real funds and real applications other things are live today and then i think the

biggest distinction i would make is between evm like well like evm's edm scaling solutions which where you could deploy any smart contract so polygon arbitrarily optimism authored in that that avenue and most of those with the exception of polygon aren't really live today and then on the other side we have these application specific scaling solutions and i think most of the ones that are live today are using zk roll ups or in our case for diversified we actually work with starkware and there's a number of other applications that are using star quest scaling um solution which include like dydx and immutable x which is for nfts and all of these are very much like tailored so you can't just deploy

anything you want on there if you're a developer but if you're a user you get the benefit of layer 2 today and everything is like basically requires no gas to interact with defy or trade or whatever it is you want to do but you still have all the benefits of not having to you know basically holding all your funds in your metamask and being able to do everything you want to do on in d5 so those are that's kind of like one direction to look at it and then the other is in terms of different types of scaling solution so there are like zk roll ups which use cryptographic security in terms of how you secure the system the scaling solution and then there are like there's different terms you can use for it but let's say

optimistic where you're relying on some game theoretical principles to provide security and these include like optimism and some others which have a slightly different compromise on speed and security and efficiency but kind of still achieve the overall same thing for the end users of ethereum and d5 yeah and diversify is very much like in that zk roll up camp and the application specific camp gotcha yeah so taking a step back for anyone who's listening that might be a little overwhelmed by all the layer two complexities that are circulating around so we have right now some of the side chains which is like polygon and binance smart chain that are deployed now and people have been interacting with them and will you touched on this

you mentioned evm compatibility for anyone that doesn't know that means ethereum virtual machine which means that the ethereum code is transferable across these different chains so if it is evm compatible it's very easy to switch between different networks and basically deploy that ethereum code across different layer twos because they're all compatible and then you touched on zk technology which you know is the way i kind of think about it is kind of the i call it hard money or excuse me hard math versus soft math where z k zero knowledge proofs are more of that computational hard math it works and you know there's a

reason to point to why it works whereas roll ups are more of like a soft math you kind of nudge people in the right direction by setting up the system in a certain way and it's in their best interest to to act in this certain way that maintains the system whereas that hard math basically locks in you know that that system so you guys are working on that zk technology and you mentioned that application uh specific side chains are starting to roll out which is to me at least different from these different side chains that try to be like a one fits all type of layer two solution i'm curious what you think in terms of the direction that we're heading as more layer two start to come out do you think we're gonna

see very segmented layer twos that are application specific and they fall into different niches and you know certain applications if they're part of this demographic all are on the same chain or do you think more of the holistic approach that polygon and binance chain are taking where you know they want to have access and allow all applications to exist which which approach do you think is better for the ecosystem and you know if it's better or not which direction do you think we're headed in i think by the way that was an awesome description with the hard and soft maths and also i think an important distinction to make is i mean you mentioned i think finance smart chain and polygon a few times

and i think the interesting thing about both of those is they give a layer to like experience but i wouldn't necessarily i think a lot of people might say that they're not really layer twos because they have lower security than ethereum and lower security than using d5 ethereum but they feel like what i think the future layer 2 experience will be because it's much cheaper it's much more accessible to a lot of people it has the benefits you get but you do compromise on security and that may mean that in the long term they're not the most sustainable solutions and other things will replace them but going back to your question which specifically was you know will these really will these flexible open solutions kind of

evolve or will some you know more niche applications like diversify end up being most used right like a a holistic approach versus a segmented approach exactly yeah i i kind of think of it in that right now actually almost everyone in d5 is an early adopter that the numbers of people who are using even unit swap you know one of the most used d fire applications in the world is really low it's like you know less than is it maybe one or two million users it's hard to know because some people have multiple addresses and that is still really tiny and it's even smaller if you look at other other kind of lending applications or like polygon

finance everything else what this kind of shows is that right now if you're providing a lot of flexibility you know so that people can do all kinds of crazy yield farming you know trading derivatives maybe some like new algorithmic stablecoin that's what people want because they're early adopters they're going to try everything it needs to have as much flexibility as possible and actually kind of almost the end users of the layer 2 scaling solutions or sidechains and everything else are developers because they can deploy things as easily as possible and then anyone can try them and that's really cool it's great for the stage of like the ecosystem that we're at because people are just trying everything we get we're learning really fast people are creating stuff and people are making a lot of money and that's exciting

but kind of two or three years from now can we imagine how d5 will be and let's say now it's you know 50 million people in the around the world who are starting to use d5 to manage their finances and to earn interest to trade by crypto i think we start to see quite a different sort of app set of applications emerge and flexibility isn't so important anymore because once we have a large number of people using this stuff you know if you imagine like most of your friends who maybe aren't so familiar with crypto that they don't want to go into like some crazy yield farm where they have a 50 chance of like times of like you know doubling their money but they could also like have have the work pulled out of pulled out of the the farm and like lose

everything they're probably more likely to do quite a small number of things which is trade um that you basically buy and sell different tokens probably like the larger ones maybe a few riskier ones occasionally participate in some like icos or rather like you know like initial dex offerings like buyer fans to launch pools or whatever it is and they're probably gonna want to earn some yield on their funds that they already own and maybe transfer tokens to their friends or like make payments a few other things like but it's probably not going to be that much more than that and so with diversify in particular what we're doing is building a really tailored platform for those actions so we're kind of selecting what we think the more mainstream

users of d5 will want to do and then rather than trying to make it as flexible as possible so anyone can build anything we're making it as efficient as possible so the gas cost is almost zero for those types of actions so if you want to transfer to someone else or diversify it's basically free if you want to make a trade you pay some like costs for liquidity but there's no gas cost to ethereum for doing that if you want to earn interest on compound biodiversify you don't pay any gas costs for it either and so suddenly like d5 becomes really accessible for those people because we've basically built something that it can't do everything but it can do the things that most people want to do really efficiently on layer two without

paying gas and it could do it for millions of people rather than just a few thousand at the same time otherwise like gas costs become like fifty dollars so suddenly it makes d5 much more accessible and i think that's where a lot of these scaling solutions will end up right now i think it's you know for the next year we're probably going to see a lot more of these holistic ones where you can try anything and deploy anything but then as the ecosystem grows will settle into like many different types of very tailored efficient scaling solutions like diversify which really focus on just one or two things and do those as well as possible and then there might be another application where you can do something else but

again which is like tailored for that gotcha gotcha yeah it definitely seems like the imminent scaling is just basically bringing the ethereum experience to other chains that are just easier to use basically incentivizing with some liquidity mining and then just calling it scaling you know whereas this multi-year outlook kind of promotes a more robust you know ecosystem of parts that are all able to work together and we have to think about you know bridges that come into mind here i think hop protocol as of today has just launched their first bridge that basically allows you to take funds from polygon to ethereum or to xdi and right now it's just usdc but it's within you know 30 seconds and so i think on a multi-year

approach with the capabilities of these bridges that allow you to go from one place to another instantly you know with the added liquidity the segmented approach you know then becomes more of a hedge to protect your own risks right so you've got your funds on the ethereum on the ether main net you know and you use that this bridge to go from here to polygon or to here you know to other chains right and then you can also have funds on optimism on you know on on the arbitrage so there's all sorts of like hedges in terms of creating a portfolio for yourself but realistically as you said will the you know the common user of d5 is most likely going to be in one place where it's the cheapest and there's the most liquidity right and so

i'm curious who you think is the current winner of the kind of scaling scaling war if you will right now you know whether it be a one of these upcoming solutions or a side chain now or a protocol right i know you're a bit biased with good old diversified but who do you think is the winner of this current scaling warden you know how do you see the competition starting to kind of stack up and you know who's going to win yeah i i think it's an interesting question but it's a little bit too early to cool probably the kind of winner and actually i my personal view is probably more close to what you were describing at the start which is that we will have a multi-chain ecosystem i think things like hot protocol connects and others

will become the norm and actually the user experience so i mean in many ways i see what diversifies building currently we've built everything on one solution which is starpex which is built by starkware mainly because it's the only thing that's alive today and actually diversify i would say today does have the best liquidity on layer 2 anywhere if you want to trade eth or rap bitcoin the diversified is the cheapest place to do it and it's you get better prices than you would on unit swap you get better prices than you would in any other layer too but that i think is because we were we're still early and things like optimism and arbitrary that you mentioned have hardly launched they're just getting started but i think

in the future and not too far away from now things will become quite fragmented liquidity will be on many different sizes i mean if you go to polygon already we can see exactly how that's happening same with finance smart chain and so the end user experience i think will have to be multi-chain and so almost i think users aren't going to care which underlying layer 2 scaling solution they're on they're going to want to interact with d5 wherever it is at the best prices as seamlessly as possible move between them instantly using these bridges these bridge technologies bridges are going to be essential for d5 to feel seamless and i think you know it's not just ethereum their twos but there's an entire ecosystem i mean personally i'm i'm like i'm very much i

very much believe ethereum will be almost like the core settlement layer for a lot of this but we're seeing really interesting ecosystems emerging in the cosmos world in polkadot ecosystem solana and that's just going to continue because it's a great place for people to experiment and there are lots of new and interesting things happening there and so i think ultimately what diversifier wants to build is almost a portal to that so once you have your funds in diversify you can access many different layer twos you can trade quick on unit swap on arbitrary and then you can interesting via compound and everything else all from the diversifier ui seamlessly moving between these different chains and i think we're obviously away off from that mainly

because a lot of these layer 2 solutions haven't haven't launched yet but that is i think how people will want to interact with it they're not going to want to as they kind of maybe do now open five different tabs and like use a bridge and then go to something on polygon and then use another bridge and go to something on x type and maybe like make a mistake with a transaction so they have to like pay for it three times they're just going to want to seamless interaction and then and they're not going to want to even know maybe which layer 2 they're on sometimes i think that is i mean i i agree with that sentiment that really what you said is accurate that people and users don't really care which l2 that they're on they just want the best one

for the use case that they're solving so if that means trading it's you know where's the best price and where is the least amount of slippage if they're betting it means it's you know what uh sportsbook has the best line on the game tonight so there's a few different reasons why you would want to check different layer twos for the most effective price or you know listing which i think is gonna be important as we start to onboard into less crypto native applications so you know if there is a better price on cosmos then on uniswap then you know maybe if it's a big trade you want to do half of your order cosmos and half of it on ethereum's main chain you know people

are going to want to access that kind of liquidity and ultimately that makes an a more efficient market by identifying those misfires those arbitrages so i mean andy to kind of answer your question i think the winners of the l2 race are really going to be these not holistic chains that try to tap into all the different applications but i think it's going to be the more complete tech stacks that have maybe their own independent application chain but in addition to that they also have a bridge and they have an order book and they aggregate liquidity from different areas so you know what that looks like might be

diversify you know if you guys have your own chain and you're able to tap into different liquidity like you know aggregate liquidity from binance chain and polygon and optimism and pull it all into one exchange i i think that is going to be probably the leader of the l2 race eventually because it's all it's all organized into one place and really that to me is what makes up whether a protocol is going to win or lose the it's their community and if they can keep their community all in house under one roof i think they maintain a lot more of their community that way and it ends up growing along with the protocol yeah i completely agree with most of that and diversify in diversified's case

that is similar i mean that's kind of the approach that we've taken very much so right now diversify adverse facts started with order books on layer two so it was kind of a it felt very much in some ways like a centralized exchange but where you connect your wallet metamask ledger whatever and trade and it's really evolved since then and kind of as really kind of driven by our community as it's evolved the investor community is growing really fast and like really strong at the moment particularly given that we just like literally last week launched our governance token dvf and so one of the things we've really had from feedback is that people want to do more and they actually want to access liquidity from layer one as well within there too so if you like one of the most

interesting examples of that is we have this compound integration and in the case of that because a diversified compound didn't like develop something new and launch it on diversifies layer 2. actually instead the way it works is that if you want if you have usdt for example on diversify and you want to put it into compound and yield let's say like four or five percent yields you know it's not like crazy amounts but it's pretty good compared to most of the world you you actually sort of make that deposit on layer two don't pay any gas for it but then after a certain amount of these deposits there's a single transaction made on layer one to access the main liquidity pool for compound so you know at certain

points when gas prices are high if let's say you have two thousand dollars and you wanted to put it into compound on layer one on ethereum that could cost you fifty dollars so it's kind of you you lose most of the interest you might earn just by making the deposit and then you have to withdraw at the end too whereas when you do it on diversify it's free because diversified can then like aggregate all those deposits together and make a single one and access the main liquidity pool on ethereum layer one and i think that's how many layer twos will continue to develop is that end users only really will end like maybe even six months from now will only really use layer twos but a lot of the end liquidity might still come from layer one particularly like the unit swap pools compound rv other protocols

might still be accessed by these layers kind of almost roots liquidity but users don't have to pay for it anymore because they're interacting on there too similarly like if you're trading on diversify at the moment you're mainly using the order book but that has an aggregated liquidity from also some centralized exchanges and so you get like really good prices and in two or three weeks time we'll be launching amm pools so it's also super easy to provide liquidity on a lot more tokens and very similar to the way it works now on sushi swap or unit swap but but instead here you don't need to pay any gas costs to participate in that so it's open to much smaller you know even if you only have a hundred dollars of funds it could still then make sense and i think that's the big difference is that things then become a

lot more accessible and like the the size of the community can therefore be much bigger which i think is as you mentioned kind of be a really important thing for sort of maintaining and like throwing the protocol i think it's something that polygon did didn't did really well but a lot of the other maybe they said like as layer 2's haven't yet done and so that's i think going to be one of the big differentiators for different solutions and will how does diversify handle those types of transactions is it and i'm assuming it's not i guess in this this case like you guys aren't bridging an asset or liquidity from l1 when someone wants to tap make that trade on

your l2 is it like a smart order router that'll then execute on both exchanges or do you guys bridge assets to fill an order on l2 it kind of depends there's a few different solutions but the fundamental building block that's used is something called a conditional transfer which is a really basically like magic cryptographic transaction that exists in the scaling solution that the diversified is built on so if you're someone who has your funds on layer 2 you essentially sign this type of transaction um which gives permission for like for example your funds to go to

someone else but only if a certain transaction happens on ethereum layer one and when the kind of future basically where at a certain point in the future that will be verified on layer one and if it didn't happen like your transaction won't be valid so like a really simple example of this is let's say you have some ethereum on diversify and you want to make a trade on unit swap to get the bet because that might be the way the best prices for a certain token you sign this transaction to send your east to someone else and that person then makes the trade on unisoft on layer one for you and only if it's successful can they receive your funds on layer two anyway that's it's kind of like a complicated scenario but

it's actually like really beautiful in terms of what it means you can do because it means that you can then interact with anything on layer one without paying the gas plus on diversify and um that's like what we built some of these integrations around i apprecia i appreciate how you describe that conditional transfer it's basically like magic yeah thanks for not getting uh too technical and that's the problem when you go too much into some of this cryptography is like it kind of ends up boiling down like for end users to magic but with the security of you know of the blockchain but i hope hopefully that still made some sense yeah it definitely did i mean is there a scenario where an aggregator could be able to use this exact quote-unquote magic that we're talking about to

basically aggregate liquidity from diversify for trade as well as other dexes on starkware or other dexes on other you know even other side chains or other you know other rollups or you know is the aggregator space kind of only for specific chains or roll-ups that's exactly something that we've spoken a lot about like our development team is really excited about that concept and actually it's kind of almost been prototyped out but it doesn't exist yet i think that is something i think that is how ecosystem might look six months to a year from now it's hard to predict exactly when but very much that aggregators i think will take into account all these different layer twos and and also be able to access them and this concept i talked about with the

conditional transfers can be used to achieve that as well yeah a more general question here on on the same topic is how do we get the most composable approach to the segmented side chains background being we've seen the polygon sdk this allows different protocols to build their own side chain bringing about that application type of chain future that we talked about with different segmented chains the hold up being we still need to unite all of these chains if we want to tap into the liquidity across different chains so

what is the best approach for i guess building towards a unified set of chains maybe it's this magical conditional transfer type of contract and i guess i was just kind of you know looking for your thoughts on the polygon sdk if you had any and the best way to kind of yeah aggregate liquidity across all these different chains yeah it's it's a really interesting question and i think it's something where and kind of putting aside the polygon sdk for a moment i think it's something which is most easily looked at through the lens of ethereum versus cosmos and polkadot actually so ethereum

was built as a completely open very flexible but basic computer essentially for the entire world and because it was so flexible and open and had a language like solidity and the evm anyone any developers could build anything on it and they have done and they started building d5 and they started building layer 2 solutions and because it's kind of entirely open we've had 10 or you know 20 or probably 100 different layer 2 scaling solutions being built by teams all over the world without any coordination and therefore we've got all these different solutions that are kind of competing with each other but without like some coordinated vision for how they connect how you move funds between them how it will end up being in in two

or three years from now there's no kind of master plan almost it's a very organic almost like darwinian evolution where the best chains will win or the best lair twos will win um and it's kind of from that point of view unplanned but really powerful because it means we get all this competition and the best things will end up winning whereas if you look at polka dot or cosmos which kind of the opposite they looked ahead like i think when they were being developed and said okay two or three years ago from now probably we're going to have a multi-chain ecosystem people are going to want to build all sorts of different chains and they're going to want to connect together and let people move funds and so both of those two basically designed their their blockchains to

be built around that idea so in the cosmos example they have ibc and all these different almost like side chains can connect and let you move funds between them and it's it it was like that was like built into the original design same with polkadot like that's kind of part of its design parameters and so we're now seeing like almost a competition between these two days of where it was purposely designed and where it's happening organically and i think polkadot and cosmos were both right that this would be how ecosystem developed but ethereum has kind of adapted to that by doing it organically and i actually i actually do think that's going to like it's hard to predict how it's going to end up but i think we'll see the best solutions

win and naturally bridges start to connect them i don't think it will be like something that's that we can plan out or predict exactly how it will look but i think it will work because that's already been proven that this stuff just happens on its own almost right yeah it is a darwinistic concept and that's ultimately how we've gotten here you know even all the way up to this podcast really it's crazy to see the evolution of these concepts and the way that protocols and builders have thought through the vision as you've explained with cosmos and polka dot and tried to create protocols for their specific vision you know even though there are all sorts of different things playing out at once and you know the same thing can be applied to your vision of what's coming and what's being built

at diversify so you know i i guess to kind of wrap us up here some quick updates on what's going on at diversify you know what to expect you know over the coming weeks and months in building this layer to you know this exchange and this own protocol to provide this experience for users what are we building what are we working on yeah so the most exciting thing that's happening in diversified right now is that we've spent nearly two years building out the protocol and the exchange and uh diversify as it is today and now we're handing it over to the community so last week we released the dvf token which is the governance token for diversify it happened through a diversified launch

market which was essentially similar to a balancer launch pool where it was a really fair way of people getting getting these tokens and all the funds raised are going to a community treasury which rather than like to our team so it's all completely like by the community for the community and the next three weeks are going to be basically launching amm pools so basically making it really easy for people to provide the quality on diversify and then to these dvf governance tokens by doing it and so there will be an airdrop to any active diversified users of dvf tokens and there'll also be liquidity mining for anyone who provides the community once that one security mining starts so there's gonna be a lot of ways people to

to kind of really engage and be part of what we've built and we kind of see this is like that almost the next few months is us taking the protocol that we launched and handing it over to dvf token holders so it's kind of like exciting for us as a team because suddenly there's a lot more people involved we're already having loads of people starting to starting to engage and like have have even better ideas than we've had about where diversity should go so that's just really cool from our perspective and the launch of these amm pools is going to be huge after that most of our team will be focusing on mobile and like increasing and the number of ways that people can access diversify but there'll be a huge community treasury that's governed completely by token holders so a lot of

the like future future development of the protocol will be led by uh by the by that down community yeah it'll be super interesting to see how that process goes going from a centralized governance style to a decentralized one i know that's been a rocky road for some other protocols but you all have been building for a couple years now and with the community as you mentioned that's very strong i'm sure y'all you know you guys won't have any trouble for anyone who's still listening there you know maybe if you were a little bit distracted by all the technical layer two discussion and and weren't able to follow alarm bells might be going off in your head now because

we'll mention the airdrop so if you know you're still figuring out how to get involved in defy and not really sure where to start airdrops are a great way to just get your hands dirty get your feet in the water and get some tokens in your wallet that you can start experimenting with contribute to some governance proposals trade on the exchange get different rewards and participate in farming so yeah if you guys are a little bit unfamiliar with kind of how to navigate things you know go over to diversify get started and claim that airdrop because who knows we've seen air drops do very well and you know i'm sure diversify won't be any different sweet sweet will thank you so much for coming on man it was absolute pleasure

to chat about all things layer two and diversify there are some key takeaways from this conversation that i know our community will highly benefit from and yours as well so thanks man and keep on building awesome yeah thanks so much for having me it was really fun thanks for listening to the d5i design podcast until next time d5 slate team