DeFi By Design EP#42: Oh! Finance! : The Lightbulb Moment in DeFi

Transcript

[Music] d5 slate team [Music] what's up y'all real quick if you like the d5 state content on twitter and youtube and sub stack please please give us a like and a subscribe on this video on youtube and join our channel join the community we'd really appreciate it we're pumping this stuff out for you all as much as we can and we really enjoy the support and the community that we've built thank you very much enjoy what's going on guys welcome to episode 42 of the d5 by design podcast uh here today with rick from oh finance and of course robbie my co-host and we're here to take to talk about

d5 and creating a professional and new d5 2.0 upgrade if you will right so we're kind of excited to step into what people have been saying as defy summer 2.0 but what we're kind of establishing in our framework as the next steps for taking d5 mainstream and really making it so that those who are invested in 401ks or institutions or just the common uh mom and pop who are used to having insured common um and uh practical use cases for their finances you know that they are used to right and that they can get adjusted to in the easiest man in the easiest way possible

so kind of a mouthful there but we are excited to talk to rick today i'll pass it over to robbie and get us started yeah man yeah so uh super happy to be talking about talking to rick today about oh finance um yeah and you know they're they're pre-launched so no one has really um gotten a chance to interact with the technology yet aside from the core team but the the vision is certainly there um the way i think about oh finance at least on its surface level um you know the first defy summer we had all these raw materials all these raw tools that gave us access to d5 but it wasn't very intuitive and they were all

you know pretty segmented they they are composable which is great to see but um they they weren't engaged they weren't integrated just yet and and i think that's where oh finance comes in um and starts to build some of those structured products take those raw materials and compile them into a more attractive defy offer that's more intuitive and more attractive for a large spectrum of investors so i will go ahead and pass it off to rick and let him introduce himself as well as oh finance yeah absolutely thanks guys um well first uh i think you hit the nail on your head about you know what defy summer represented uh kind of where everything's been going for

the last i think everyone is really when they say d5 summer they're really holding on to just uh the last year and uh d5 has been building much longer than that i don't think a lot of people do uh entirely realize that uh for example compound uh has been around a lot longer than uh you know the last 12 months uh and that's just one example of uh that it has been coming the mainstream is coming um and that's where you know i think uh why uh you know me you know mace noah sammy we all really put our heads together and and saw um kind of the the current uh ecosystem the atmosphere um what's working what's not and why we started

you know decided to start oh finance and you know the whole joke or the whole like why why open it right it's supposed to be that oh with that explanation like oh like i get it now i really understand like this is what i've been missing and we you know we started our our little social push right around the whole like banks or banks are giving you nothing and that's that's the most mainstream you can possibly get right i don't know if you guys have a bank of america chase you know whoever and you look at your savings account and your what you're getting is probably something comical uh 0.1 percent apr maybe maybe less maybe more if it's you know if you're playing stocks or you're playing um you know if you're playing uh mutual funds i mean there's there's obviously some higher gains real estate uh there's

some more traditional means to to get you know earn money on your money um but when you cut all the middlemen out and you really give you know uh power to the people and you know power to the platform you'll see that those gains are pretty tremendous and that's what defy unlocks and where uh you know we're really passionate about it and that's where so that's where defy starts and then that's now where it grows from there is that whole mantra of making it simple um you know i can name all the platforms our you know our competitors our our our our lending tools that we leverage um and a lot of them you know i use them i use every one of them uh i've also been in crypto pretty deep going on almost a decade now and so you

know trying to teach say my uncle uh how to use metamask is a challenge um to me or you or to anybody you know probably a lot of your listeners it's you just click on you know you go up to the the puzzle piece in the corner of mo you know firefox and you click on you know your meta mask or you do it on your mobile and you just do this and it's easy if i literally you know told that to my uncle he would give up after one step and that'd be it and he said you know that's just one example of of somebody we're trying to reach so how do you bring uh d5 mainstream and that's uh again it starts with a really really easy to use interface um it starts with uh you know bot logic and bot framework that welcomes you to

the site um you know for the people that haven't used uh or touched a wallet before how do you get them to install it how do you get them to understand it uh again it's it's intended to be welcoming and easy so that way anybody from the d-gen to the to the newbie uh is able to get installed go get their usdc um from wherever they want to get it from uh you know and onboard it into defy and have their money start earning um and then you know now we go from there so now you're talking your your curves your aobs your compounds all those sites uh have different levels of difficulty different um aprs different levels of familiarity um what if you just had a giant button

you know at the end of the day when you when you go to your bank and you put money in your bank and it just earns i mean it's earning nothing but it's earning and it's it's easy it's familiar but it's it's outside of that it's not doing anything special for you and that's again where o is going to differ is that it's it is truly intended to be a you know a single a single click you know um uh action to to stake your money uh stake your usdc and start earning uh pretty tremendous apr on it so that you know your money is doing more so now that you're you know your d5 dollar is doing more what how do you bring it how do you bring it more mainstream at that point how do you convince um somebody that again might try to take their 401k money and take

some risk with it right d5 that's scary right defense you know you've heard all the rug pulls and you've heard all the exploits and uh you know all the exploits that were on bsc or maybe the titan collapse you know when when the peg was lost you hear about all these things and for the the lay person coming it's terrifying they're not gonna they're not gonna take their hard earned uh decades earned 401k and put it into d5 well that's where it then starts with multiple you know contract audits uh we have uh hal born and gwan stamp uh two of the top known and you have to educate people and understand them like why these are the best what they've looked for why are platforms protected okay that's now you've now hit what every other yield aggregator does a top tier yield aggregator isn't touching

anything if you're not getting top tier audits so how do you then differentiate one step further and it's that insurance offering that we think is going to be truly special and that's through bridge mutual where it'll be a single click option where when you vault your money you have the option to ensure insure your your uh your staking amount and that's again the apr should outpace um any of that fee as well as outpace just leaving your money in say a 401k or leaving it in a bank uh while giving that peace of mind where you know should should the worst happen you're sleeping soundly at night right um yeah i think insurance is going to be huge for uh for all d5 ugly fight users over the coming years

during the during the d5 summer as as we say you know i don't think really anybody used it to be honest it was just kind of this new concept but i think as we just as as as we grow to these people that you mentioned um right you know it's gonna start to become something that's more prevalent um now speaking of the apys and aprs that banks offer compare compared to defining a few months ago it was absolutely not the comparison i mean d5 had had 10x or or more just on simple ave pools or or simple curve right we've seen yields collapse um you know yields are now three four five six percent you you can get 10 12 18 right but you you're pushing some sort of counterparty risk whether it's

tether or a a newer protocol or something of that sort so how do you um how do you feel currently about the yields collapsing in d5 and you know what do you think about the next few months of of yields and d5 yeah so great questions um and i'll touch on all kinds of different pieces there so with obviously the counterparty risks uh that's the number one reason we're going with usdc um you know we will enable other uh stable coins uh down the road you know there's no reason we can't do usd usdt and die i think we all know usdt's history and uh it's questionable collateralization uh and and also just the mechanics behind dye that inherently provide more risk so with that said usdc is going to be

available in probably every exchange everywhere uh rapidly and and uh and quickly uh it's already in blockchains more importantly it was recently announced for avalanche for example obviously it's all over polygon it's all over phantom so it's it's everywhere it seems to be um and it has the metrics to back it up the the most true collateralized stable coin as opposed to ustt again where there's a lot of questions behind it so again that brings that truth one dollar equals one dollar that's got to be important because your asset that you have if it's in a vault should come out that asset again that's all that trust that security aspect so that's really uh one aspect now the yields um and that's a great point that you touched on because for example uh coinbase launched their

uh their savings account was it yesterday i believe for two days ago four percent apr um that's not bad that's uh that's nothing sorry dogs coming in um so that's that's a good apr uh it's way better than a bank and it's also backed by a nasdaq traded company and you know you name it um so yields are yields are crabbing uh they're crabbing because lending's less right at the end of the day how what generates yield on a stablecoin it's gonna be your your uh your blending and your borrowing so as the market is shooting up or the martin market is shooting down people need to cover their longs and people need to cover their shorts and that's ultimately where you're seeing all that lending action which is generating yield

uh during say an extended bear market where you're going to see a little bit more crabbing a little less a little less longing a little less shorting you're going to see those yields drop so that's actually one of the things that i was doing differently is by creating that defy index and having all the different protocols but balancing between the protocols what you know what you're seeing is that you'll catch spikes a little better and you can actually basically create a little bit of arbitrage between the aprs um it'll help kind of raise that floor a little bit in the aprs um so that's that's just what one of the things that was doing differently is kind of a d5 index that will help um kind of separate us uh and raise that apr uh in terms of the broader market uh

there's just some truths too um that that the aprs will be lower they're still going to be better than your bank they're going to be better than block five they're gonna be better than um you know pretty much any other uh defy like product nexo coinbase they'll just be less and at the end of the day though and you know doing a lot of market research talking with the ants and the uncles uh i you know with native token admissions protocol fees um you know anywhere north of what six to ten percent is a great return and then if the market starts heating up again and you start right yeah so i mean it's it's not i think we've gotten so conditioned that like

six or eight or ten percent isn't high enough and that's you know i i mean i'm not gonna lie i was all i was all over iron i got out i got it at the right time and i was making two percent a day or whatever it was it was something insane like it was like the highest of highs to the lowest of lows and you get that d gen addiction right you're like i don't want to i don't want to make 0.01 a day that's nothing well that's safe money that's like that's true savings that's how you grow your wealth um and so i think that it starts with a mindshift shift you know when you're gonna go if d5 is going to go mainstream it can't be that i need to have 20 you know in good time sure and that's the best part about defy is i don't have

to go to management and say we're going to raise our rates today because the market's more favorable the market shifts every day which means that if if curve is more profitable or or matic is running matic summer and given matic rewards and we can reward our users with that right that money goes right back to the platform and that's where you know again it it's more of a mantra shift is that once you start understanding uh you we you know before we kicked off the show before we were talking about trying to play uh you know when when bitcoins is crabbing and how to trade it and if you're not you know really great at trading it's a very hard range to play so why try and trade it so it's no different than if you aren't sure the right trade to make and you aren't sure where to park your money

and you have a bunch of stable and it's just sitting there go ahead go make money on it and be safe and secure doing it and be insured doing it so every night you go to bed you're still going to earn your interest you're going to wake up tomorrow with more money than you had today and you know that's i think it really really starts with a whole uh a mindset shift and that's that's as defy goes mainstream you're going to start to see that yeah yeah it it certainly um you know you call it crabbing and and i've called it chop or range markets whatever you want to call it when bitcoin and and the major coins are are in these oscillating ranging choppy kinds of markets um it just doesn't make sense to trade you know especially on leverage

if your liquidation is anywhere close to the current price it's very likely that you'll be liquidated so andy and i like to refer to that as almost you switch to survival mode at that point and you just live to trade another day maybe that means you hold some some spot um but ultimately you're not trying to time the market and if you know the market does look quite a bit risky then the safest play is going to be to hold stable coins and ultimately to still earn some yield on those stable coins um i i think it is going to be interesting you know now now that uh bitcoin has lost a lot of volatility right because i think it really is not so much dependent on bowler bear when it comes to lending rates it's

really on volatility you know if the market is clearly trending down there's going to be a plenty of shorters and yields on on bitcoin and ethereum are going to be you know really high stable coin yields being very low um so you know the the volatility and the bull and the bear that that all kind of evens out as time goes on um but something an argument that i've heard vitalik refer to is you know in the long run it's inevitable that defy rates ultimately collapse into kind of the rates that we're seeing um in banks so far and i think that's too true to a certain extent as more liquidity comes in volatility's decreased

but there is still a margin that is captured by peer-to-peer lending and removing middlemen um and i'm kind of curious you know in the long run maybe we're looking 20 30 50 years down the line you know it is inevitable that these rates are going to recede a bit um and as liquidity mining slows down where do you think we end up you know there there's clearly a margin of um surpassing the rates that banks can offer in the long run but you know how how much is that middle men worth yeah and when we can provide that that uh profit margin that a middle man is capturing now once once we can provide that to the entire

community how what does that rate look like at that point that's a damn good question um i mean well first off banks right let's just talk bank profits you know almost 70 70 it's 68 to 71 depending on the bank you're looking at of their profits go to management and above so if you just took all that profit and put it elsewhere that's d5 so that's just if you're talking just pure potential right that's if you start pulling if it goes true mainstream we're talking 10 20 30 years and banks like we're talking series money pours pours pours in the d5 more than more than today and you start trading equities and you start trading uh currency pairs more than just stable coins right you can kind of see where

the defined narrative can go the more mainstream it goes and that you know therefore maybe maybe the this the single asset apr comes down but you're getting so much more volume that you're making those pennies over and over and over again so the apr actually ticks higher um so that's one aspect of it and then just purely you know where does the the equilibrium lie at that point though uh you know if i'm guessing i i think you're going to start to see a pretty standard rate of like four to five percent um mostly because i think that's where the middlemen and how much the banks are raking in and just we've done a ton of research on on where about that rate lies i think it's probably closer to four i'm

actually thinking that might be why or why coinbase has kind of set their number at that but you're going to see i mean the coinbase rate you're going to see that come down too uh you know i i would be shocked to see that hold it at four percent um over time just because again they have investors and above that they have to pay so at the end of the day it's either power to the people giving back to the people or it's giving back to something higher um and that's just the truth of it so that's that is the power of if you cut out all middlemen and you give it all back to your community that's what you get so i you know i i maybe it's way higher um i guess if bitcoin is truly the appreciating asset that we all say it'll be a hundred

thousands of meme and a millions of meme and ethereum to ten thousands programmed um you know that that four or five percent honestly might might be mean because you're gonna see a lot of chop between the next 10 years as as those numbers get realized as inflation goes and as those happen so yeah maybe five percent in 20 years sure but you're probably gonna have a lot of years between now and then where you're getting ten twelve percent you know uh per annum uh constantly and that's going to be exciting times um to be a part of and to be early on and you know uh you know to have not parked your money in a bank right and i think kind of sees

it um sees high apys like this and gets excited you know i mean four percent isn't anything crazy so maybe that doesn't raise a skepticism for somebody who's who's just immediately thinking oh this has got to be a ponzi or something right but when we start to think about 12 20 15 starts to raise red flags for anybody who's ever existed in in the financial world up to this point because it's like well everything that i've ever experienced in my life that is like this has just not lasted it has just been at the end so my my question to you rick is how how do we provide the front end right so we know what the back end is we know that the back end is curve it's obvious compound it's it's o finance it's all these protocols that are basically just

combining and stacking these uh protocols on top of each other to earn yield kind of like this the concept of the leg goes but how do we get the front end so so able to be onboarding to so many users because frankly people see eight percent they're ready to throw their money at it they don't particularly care what's going on in the back end they want to know what's going on and the answer is well you know you're putting your money in this protocol and then you're taking those interest parent tokens yeah and maybe here and you know if you want to go even a little further you can go here right so you know maybe there's like three buckets of risk kind of how advisors do it right but um you know the the question is how do we take of a compound um and all these other protocols that

that that d5 has to offer and bring them to mainstream in the u in the ui of a front end that's you know equivalent um to to that of coinbase or that of td ameritrade or that of an app on on your phone like what does that look like uh kind of two twofold if you ask me um it starts with against simple a lot of the defy apps are too hard metamask is too hard so i mean there's going to be i'm not going to pretend like we can make metamask invisible it can't happen at this time uh it just runs you know and they're not just a trust wallet i mean i you know name your name your wallet of choice they they run the space right now um it's just the truth and so um you know it starts with education for now to how

to onboard people and get them familiar with it and then trying to just minimize clicks read your eips and and switch things to signing steps so you're not having to wait for an approval action to go through and then also confirm on the blockchain starts with using new blockchains that are quicker and easier uh you know if you look at the avalanche blockchain right which is made for basically financial security um you know identifying those opportunities early where transactions complete really fast um and really cheap so that way for an end user when you click and it comes right back it's a it's a lot more of a something you'd expect i click i click deposit i get a confirmation that hits back in a second that's more what you're used to when you go and make a trade on coinbase

or or do something with uh you know fidelity um and that's just the truth of the current world and now the more broad world is how do you how do you integrate um on-ramps fiat on ramps usdc on-ramps um you know to directly into your site so i mean ultimately where o would love to go is to have a true usdc on ram like pump you know uh attach your bank account um and say i want you usdpc and it gets on board into the system and then you have like a native wallet or a mobile app only desktop uh mobile apps the dream right that's also the hardest piece right everything has to run through adapt browser right now um and that's just again the truth anybody that's promising otherwise is

um it's hard it's just not how smart contracts work it's not how the dapps work at this time so you know we're going to have some we're going to have some bumps on that road but you know you've nailed it though having an app on your phone where two clicks and you deposit not having to go through uh even the metamask browser for example like that's going to be that's the future and um and they're getting there i mean there's there's there's integrators working there there's block chains looking to make that easier y'all should check out the cielo chain um it's kind of it's been around for a while i remember they listed on coinbase and nobody knew why like three four five months ago today's july first happy canada today and um and it pumped like 250 everyone's like what

the hell happened and then now they're basically full out trying to build d5 for mobile that's their only like that's their only like usp like we're going to build d5 on on mobile so for everyone listening and you know i i encourage y'all to check it out as well it's pretty interesting i will warn you we're having a we're having a vicious thunderstorm so if i just disappear that's what happened guys gotcha yeah rick you uh you hit on some some of the important uh ui uh features that i i think will help bring d5 to the masses um takeaways there being minimize clicks right like people just don't want to click clearly we you know hide transaction speeds

um is critical for both mainstream and institutional you know institutional can deal with those high fees that usually come with uh faster transactions but you know everyone wants those fast transactions so that you're not left stressed and waiting for a confirmation um and just you know one big button so don't make it you know very complicated like uh what do you care about you care about a big button how much yield how much have you made to date yeah and what are your fees that's like everything's been overthought like exactly yeah when you look at curve right and it looks like an airport terminal and it's like how do i even navigate this thing it's just it's

overwhelming right that's in the left corner click your pool maybe hit withdraw maybe hit deposit get lost in the statistics yeah yeah so so you know there's a really intuitive design here that that's coming to oh finance my my question is and and you touched on this a little bit when you start getting into avalanche ceilo um and more uh target specific blockchain my my question really is on on the strategy side of things you know you want to provide your your customers with a certain level of return um and i guess you're comfortable with taking on some risk to do that um right and the insurance level is just another another layer to mitigate that

risk what did you and your team take into account when you look at the the protocols that are out there and you thought to yourself okay we're going to start to bring bring structured products to defy how do we want to build these projects the excuse me how do we want to build these products and what kinds of applications are involved in each one of these strategies yep uh that's just you know it's the trusted ones for now i mean you know even you know at launch for example like uh you know our cream our cream uh strategy won't be at launch and you know cream's a very strong protocol has higher yields than most it also has a little bit of risk um and at launch we want

near you know you can never promise in d5 especially you can't say zero risk if you if you are lying that's why you that's why we've insurance offerings and and smart contract audits and do everything you can but it's it's the it's a new world and um and that's the hardest you know education piece again is what risk are you willing to accept and that's where by going with curve and that's uni swap lp sushi swap lp's compound like tried and balancer like as you go with tried and true and that's where again the multi choi you know multi-chain story is going to get popular but for reasons i don't think people have thought of it's more that every chain that's lighting up and will continue to light up for the next five years is going to offer rewards in their native tokens do you care that that rewards in matic

do you care that it's in phantom or avax or near protocol no you just care what your apr is so if you can hop around those chains invisible to the front end right so when you stake your usdc and that usdc is able to take advantage of those other chains and thus kind of maximize that apr that's going to be really unique and that's again something else where you know it's more of a roadmap item as we're looking at our other chains and what they offer it's going to be a lot of that using the tried and true protocols but using it to maximize the on-chain rewards uh and the advantages and disadvantages of each of those chains right and i i don't want to and that's more that you know that's even more

degen than i thought i'd even get into but again it's it's making it's an invisible i don't want that layer that layer will not be visible too like again i always use my uncle as an example if i go hey we got this cool block chain called avalanche this cool one called finance smart channels can be like uh no uh you know i i got this tweet that said something about metamask and i have to install it and get ethereum what's ethereum and that's a level like that's the education level like you know a high ish net worth individual that uh it's going to take me an hour to teach him d5 and that's you got to get that to a minute you know probably less or you've lost his interest you've lost his risk appetite and he'll go somewhere else yeah and that that is uh one of the

pillars of our mission uh is to educate you know the masses and and just make them more comfortable so that as new technologies are developed it becomes innovative and it's just accepted right it doesn't take a lot of thought process and um and judgment really just to like dissect it too deep because once you do it once and it hits that that oh moment and it clicks then you know everything kind of falls into place afterwards um which is which is super cool to see so i i you know i'm i'm interested kind of as a d-gen myself right because like you know we're trying to attract the masses here to the product but um it's important to just i guess work through the different layers

of each of these projects especially while we're early um and i'm curious kind of from your experience of developing these strategies in the back end right you're you're rehydrating funds uh by collateralizing in one place borrowing taking that borrow putting in another place and so on and so forth um you know lots of incentive mining is going on ultimately you know i think it's pretty well understood this is kind of creating money out of thin air how long can this go on um is it a detriment to the space or is it ultimately um adding value and growing the the sum of wealth here that we can all share so it's not it depends on money out of

thin air in my mind and i trust me i get that that sentiment is more the true um the true ponzi's where they're built to inflate there's just never ending inflation and the people that get in early um you know do the best i and the people that get in late are ruined um i mean that's anything i mean if you buy a stock at the top and then it's the stock market pops that's not buy that's not uh you know i guess i mean you could argue the stock market right as a giant ponzi and it's at its very at its very core those in early do the best those in late through the worst um but it's not creating money on thin air um and i'll push back on that and i'll say the reason being is of course what's powering true define um lending and borrowing

you know what what powers the stock market what powers banks what power is interest rates lending and borrowing there will always be lenders and borrowers people you know betting on a direction of something whether it be bitcoin ethereum uh pick uh one of the other high high liquidity pairs pick stonks as we start you know mirroring tesla and other things into into crypto and people start leveraging the bets on those like this where defy is going there's always going to be people betting that's just our society um which means you're gonna be those interest rates if you're willing to to loan money to let somebody else go make a bet you're gonna you're gonna get rewarded in that so will capital be lost absolutely will be capital be gained absolutely but that's

been you know i mean i guess you could argue inflation i mean isn't that why we're in you know uh you know a trillions of dollars of debt uh just more more uh generically speaking sure um you know is is people getting liquidated going to create more debt absolutely um but i think to the to the the smarter investor and to the understanding how it actually works um and to what protocols will do well in d5 and what will exist i think that's where more understanding how they work and how you can grow together will do okay yeah that that piece seems to fit the puzzle well i i think a lot of newcomers to the space when especially when apis are through the roof they they see that as free money almost and and it seems like

it's being printed out of thin air because you can't really identify a source you know it's like where is this coming from free internet money right right magic internet coins right but you're you know your answer specified like no this is really coming from the lending and borrowing um by by making that a more seamless and efficient process there's value created right so let's take polygon for example polygon wants to encourage lending and borrowing you know like you said anyone wants to bet on something they're betting on one way or another and if you know you can you can nudge people in a certain direction to to take a bet and they'll pay you for that then yeah right it's it's simply an arbitrage trade at that point like yeah you you want to

encourage me to take this bet i hear you i see you i'll take that bet you know and i'll take your free internet money too and then i'll hedge my risk elsewhere and maybe i'll amplify it you know if the market's trending and whatnot um but ultimately yeah it is um stemming from a source right it's not just coming out of thin air which i think is just something a hurdle to get over it if you're brand new to the space yep yeah and and don't chase the um and you know don't chase the no i guess my my recommendation is be careful if you see if you see a massive massive massive apr you know i again i the d-gen and me will chase them don't get me wrong but if

you're new to the space understand you know you know what a dyo are do your own research know what you're investing in but the craziest part is is normal people see you know the 12 percent as crazy high so so so and they should they should that's fine the sooner the space understands it like you can if you could tell me everything i made from a bull run i park and make 10 you should be so happy that you should be literally laughing but like we've been so conditioned especially the d gens in us that like you know when you you you hop into a launch and it's a little bearish right now when things aren't 10xing and you didn't 2x you're like you're holding for that 2x you're like man i

i'm not i'm not selling and then then it goes down 99.99 like i should have sold at 1.8 x you know in a day you know it's 2x in a day it's not like 2x in 15 minutes and you know and it and it's an addiction a little bit in that regarding those market conditions back jesus christ man man and that's where 10 especially on stables like any anything in that ballpark you should be you know shut up and you know where's the fry picture shut up and take my money and it's the sooner we get that mindset shifted is the sooner like banks you know people they stop like villainizing d5 yes that's one of the that's when the

the bottom of d5 hits is when people are just all satisfied with their stable coin yields and then everything just starts getting deaded up again and ripping i'm not sure that we ever see those mark conditions again that that we saw the last eight months everyone was cramped up in in their houses during coven all the fear of inflation and everyone's just gambling their their life away trying to hit a big buy a house and and secure their family's name you know prior the world collapsing and then all of a sudden the world didn't collapse everything's fine we're all fine um you know but those those conditions were just ripe for pure speculation and i think it was it was it was 17's calling and disagrees however so point on point i'm making is you'd be you'd be surprised there will be another cycle and you're

going to be saying this in three or five years from now be like i didn't see that coming at all yeah i think that the theory of diminishing returns is certainly um applicable to bitcoin yeah the concentric circles where it's always a little less yeah and and perhaps big uh you know ethereum and such but there's always going to be more tokens um yeah rick i'm curious what do you think about uh how many tokens there are out there now like what do you think about eight thousand ten thousand tokens like what's your thing too many yeah uh too many i mean it's money being made i mean it's a it's a market where if you are technical and you know what you're doing and you can put together a decent white paper um you know i was joking before this call i came on and bought uh 20 cats you know

really fun nfts um you know it's uh it's a space where there's money we made and as a result there's going to be a lot of scams there's going to be a lot of um you know tokens that add no value tokens that are just created by somebody with no intent to ever build uh or or grow or understand you know what you're doing um and also that's the whole well yeah and more just like it's also that defy mindset of like i didn't 2x like you know when you buy a stock say you bought microsoft in 88 or or i'm aging myself but you know if you buy something you're you should think to hold it and d

you know at this point crypto is not really other than bitcoin ethereum litecoin uh dogecoin um you know you you don't think to hold it for a long time and if the protocol is built right and the fees that it's generating are doing what they're supposed to do the token should appreciate so i mean you know this is going to be callous but how many communities do you come in and be like yelling at the developers like when marketing when this you know when and the protocol is what does it if the code does it the contracts do it so if you actually but they didn't get their one month gain so you are a scam i mean talk to look at celsius look at next look at how their

tokens have appreciated over the course of uh a period of time you know a a multi hundred percent return in five years should have you ecstatic on your token too but that's you know the whole mindset is is and again i'm i'm right there with the crowd um when marketing i go into my communities and say like why don't you go to market you know i'm sitting on your bag um but it's the truth like you know if if are you guys gonna have like a dow and a governance structure yes uh 100 um it's it's very very core to who we are at the end of the day you know you build the protocol

you hand the protocol off and that's kind of crucial to like the legality as well eh especially in the states yeah um it's welcome to launching a token in in uh you know being uh you know obviously if you follow me on twitter or anywhere i'm based in the us there there's just rules that you have to abide by uh very strict um and that's just the truth it's just what it is um hopefully there will be there's not even the guidance you're really just doing your best really you know we and and kind of not a lot or at least more just not even relaxation there's more guidance i mean if you are a developer you're a token launcher and you want to do this um and feel like you're not gonna have

something knock on your door tomorrow um honestly it's hard um so yeah but like what is the sec even doing uh and that was one aspect of it uh right now i mean they're unclear i'll tell you um uh very truthfully if you you know if you're small enough they leave you alone i guess if you're big enough they hit you with a fine if they can catch you on the you know there's there's uh a couple different tests that they you your token has to uh has to pass as to whether uh the the whole security or not um and again that's why you hired lawyers and sorry what do you think about the xrp case right now if you know anything when is the latest on xrp

um basically banned in america right for the most part still kind of flourishing international uh again it's my opinion that you know america is being heavy-handed i think um uh with that said i mean i i do think there's truth to the lack of regulation leading to uh both unclear rules but also rug pulls you know people can create with no fear and uh you know it's part of why you know we doxed for this and we want to own this is that if you're building with the intent to build something good because

you're trying to be a technologist um and that's just again that's just the truth you know and back to the ripple piece you know uh you know i i from the the the what i've read yeah there was a lot of promises dumping there was a it's a shady case i mean i'll tell you that i mean if you actually read into like what the ripple organization did and and promises that were made as well as insider trading i mean there's a lot of things that you can do in crypto that you can't do anywhere else and so that's pieces where people like that he just said they should regulate and i'm gonna you know hit him with a bunch of hate on his twitter i i

you know i also don't like going to buy a token that's probably going to rug and i guess people can be like you're in charge of your own investment sure but like i there should be some fear like you shouldn't be able to steal millions of dollars and have no repercussion or no risk uniswap has totally enabled um you know the creation of new of new liquidity pools just pair a token with ethan you're good to go i mean we've seen more just just stuff than any than that than you know ever before it's it's nonetheless very interesting at its core and uh we we're excited to see how oh finance kind of builds through um takes takes d5 uh to the mainstream and you know keep keep pushing forward on that vision that's that's definitely something that we have

aligned here um so yeah rick thank you so much for coming on man it was an absolute pleasure closing thoughts we're um excited to hear about launch um and get more info out there great thanks guys it was a great time yeah i appreciate it rick thanks for coming on uh super excited to see what office has put out there and yeah just let us know how we can get involved and get our community involved absolutely when launched right when tokens sure uh hopefully hopefully middle middle to end of this month alrighty