DeFi By Design EP#106: Exploring the SportsFi Vertical

Transcript

foreign [Music] by Design where we talk all things blockchain and cryptocurrency while striving to educate Empower and generate [Music] what is going on high rollers GM roll-up Nation welcome back this is episode 106 of the D5 by Design podcast uh today we're talking to Danielle um I hope I'm pronouncing that right there's a there's a J in there I think it's best if you ignore it to the US version

or whatever yeah Daniel J Lewis Yeah man so so yeah Daniel welcome to the podcast today um it's an absolute pleasure to have you on um and I also want to take this time to announce uh the partnership between overtime and the roll-up so you guys are gonna see a lot more content about overtime and about this uh this concept known as sportsfy um you know I think we're trying to we're trying to separate it from gamble Phi which we can get into on the podcast a little bit um and you guys are born out of the synthetics ecosystem um my understanding is that thales is the synthetic token protocol and then over time uh takes uh this synthetic token infrastructure and builds a front

end and a sports Finance experience uh for sports fans um so it's really cool to see like defy Tech uh kind of break into the mainstream with sports and entertainment um this is episode 106. uh it's an absolute pleasure to be here uh chatting with you and how you feeling today great um that was an amazing intro you you did kind of made an overall intro so I don't know what's left for me but yeah thanks for that cool man well yeah maybe we can get started just by talking about like your your origin story like how did you get started in the space um you know where were you before and and then and then how did you how did you come into uh where you are now

sounds great um I mostly identify as as just being a developer or a software engineer I've been at it for like more than 15 years been doing lots of of java corporate Java which was quite boring but I I find excitement in in anything I do and I always dream for yeah just I'm very competitive I guess is what I'm saying so um and and then around 2017 I guess maybe I wasn't the first way of you know crypto G's but I definitely was in the second I started trading a little bit you know Bitcoin ethereum and all the icos camps and Etc um and somehow I found synthetics or

Haven at the time and that kind of clicked for me especially Community wise they got really engaged in in synthetics Discord which was the place to be back in I think 2018 or so I've met all the all the great people and ogs many of which are now retired um and yeah I got very attracted to the space and I wanted to kind of contribute and I was I was wondering how I can do that because Java actually isn't something you use in web free at least not to my knowledge so I I started poking around and I figured out maybe I get started doing some Discord Bots and that kind of clicked so the in synthetics there was this thing called like a grants snx Grand style and I made some proposals to

do some Discord Bots and I think now whenever you go into a certain Discord you know on on the right hand side you see all those uh prices price Bots and and lots of bots but back in 2018 there weren't none per se so I was one of the first that did them and kind of maybe not started the trend but yeah I was I was known as the bot master for a while having Built My Reputation as a bot master um I I had a chance to to meet you know Kane and Jordan and JJ and all the founders of synthetics at the time and as synthetics rolled out this product called binary options and soon after they made a request for proposal if you as you would

call it in incorporate world like who who wants to take this on and spin it up as a separate project down and give it all the love it deserves I've made the pitch and luckily they they chose us um so that will be the origin story of of Taylor's you know we branded details and we are talking here about March 2021 so like two and a half years ago um and we started as the binary options protocol and just peer-to-peer order book trading of binary options and then slowly started scaling towards this amm approach which I think is much more Superior and we were lucky that the l2s kind of were brought to life and we could deploy an optimism and you know

Save A Lot on on gas prices on both deployments and you know just user costs but we were always kind of attracted towards Sports and exotic options so when finally we we found the missing link which pun intended was channeling deploying Sports Oracle uh sports odds onto chain and everything we we figured out let's use everything we have which are binary options contracts and let's try to apply that to sports and we've figured out how to do it contract wise and we released over time we we soon had we recently had our one year anniversary and yeah maybe I jumped the gun with with the insure there so I'm gonna stop

briefly and let you you know I think that's great I think that's great like you told the story about like your involvement as a bot master and the synthetics Discord which is which is uh really cool to like see how you're like you know like it's like Community grown right like that's exactly what I think a Dao is looking to do it's like Foster a a space for people to come in do what they do best like you did with JavaScript and connecting that to web3 and then and then kind of like let their community members autonomously continue develop and and spin new projects up as you did with thales so before we get into overtime maybe we could start like build a little bit more of the foundation of

thales so core this is a binary options protocol why was it a natural you know next step to take it into sports um well you know part of it is definitely our let's say just being huge sports fans so kind of linking what you love with what you do right make make work a pleasure but like binary options are a sort of betting we we stay away from that word but I think for Simplicity I have to use it um you just binary options it's kind of a derivative so you're speculating on crypto prices um but I'm a huge sports fan and sports betting fan and I kind of really always

wanted to to do more than just lose right just getting wrecked so um yeah this opportunity was kind of there from the start um and as I said when we figure out the missing link which was how to do like decentralized ways way of or figuring out odds we didn't want to have like market makers and order book trading uh I'm not gonna say that's not the web free approach but I do think it's very difficult to scale that in and it's a decentralized way without relying on centralized you know whale market makers so yeah as we figured that out we were very excited to start building and you know since overtime was released and

what it is today like we are talking lots of of you know cool new things and continuously adding new features new New Market types new sports and you know Etc what what has been kind of the traction like what is the volume like how many you know users what what does that look like uh the volume uh we we're talking about 15 million net volume to date um we have a lot of large users to be honest in terms of uh distinct daily users they have it I have to be honest and say that it's not where we want it to be right now but I think that's a general problem with with differ and everything and we are working very hard

on on making the ux and on ramping you know much more easier to grasp and approach more users get that mass adoption that we're all all hopeful for um and with that in mind we we are very eager to to work on the new account abstraction integration uh just recently we had a third-party uh protocol launch a telegram bot something like unibot I would say using overtime in the background so allowing users to use their telegram clients to to bet on Sports um yeah so so and that's what we're aiming to do I would say besides being a front end ourselves we we are eager to build this liquidity layer of web free

and be the dominant Sports web free sports book and liquidity provider and you have other protocol clients even web 2 clients if you will just build on top of it and leverage overtime's liquidity to provide a Sportsbook experience awesome and that one of the things I love most about like this Sports Finance uh Niche is that it's like a trojan horse for blockchain into web 2. and and the sports betting industry is massive right almost after regular Finance I would say sports betting and sports finances is another like billion dollar industry so you're able to kind of introduce blockchain and decentralization uh into another economy

if you will that's almost a little bit more d-gen by Nature uh so I I ideally they're a little bit more accepting of this technology and they you know might recognize the benefits whereas it might take a corporate bureaucracy a little bit more time to accept the peer-to-peer nature of this technology it's like 100 I I think um everything we had in previous D5 summer was kind of cool but still very abstract for more users now we are finally bringing something tangible we are leveraging smart contracts and the trustless concepts for what it was meant to be and we're bringing these to users who can easily hook into you know something they recognize and especially with sports betting I feel the trustless

part is very important um you might have not had the experience but I I know that a lot of people don't appreciate when they get uh denied their payouts or winnings or they get banned from using and you know in lots of parts of the world you cannot permissionlessly access uh yeah sports betting in any any aspect so I think it's well maybe not you know the first but it's one of the first actual use cases where smart contracts can demonstrate how something can improve a multi-billionaire multi-billion web 2 industry yeah yeah I I think this is finally like it's it's a it's an application that is

appealing to the masses because how many defy you know money Legos can we build like there's still a wall between people's understanding of of ethereum and like a distrust and like you know they when they think about crypto and they think about blockchain it's like all right if you're not really in it now you're not really going to understand it or want to learn about it but if it's happening in the background and it means that you're not going to be denied your payout and you can make Bets with almost any size then it it now you're speaking the language of people in that sports betting world without saying the words blockchain without saying the words crypto it's like these are words they

understand and it moves the needle for them because it it gives them an advantage whereas their web 2 trusted Sportsbook is not giving them that that that Advantage so I I still want to hit on like some of the more like Innovative aspects that you guys are building you mentioned account abstraction I think that's huge even at I don't know if you were at ECC this past year vitalik gave his his kind of like keynote presentation about account abstraction and this is something that is very uh like important to web 2 users so right because Sports Bettors don't necessarily have metamask and understand how to switch between networks so how is account abstraction like what it would it what type of

account abstraction are you guys developing how do you see that fitting into uh the link between the web 3 world and the web 2 world um so we are relying on third-party providers to who who are focused solely on account abstraction I do think that's the best approach because you want to decentralize even on those aspects of not having to no so we we are very determined to do this let's say the web freeway which is getting continuously harder especially with with the latest trends of you know um roll bits and whatnot you know spinning out and being very successful by and still being very decentralized so

sorry being very centralized but we are determined to do this the right way the way I was taught back in the early days of synthetics Discord by Kane and entebunch which is we don't want any control or custody over user funds we guarantee payouts with 100 solvency on chain which I don't think any other even web free sports book does and we do that even for parlays so even parlays where you have like whatever 69x leverage um they are all 100 solvent on chain uh that that's definitely unique in this space um so to get back on the account obstruction part uh I think it's very exciting to be able to use your Google account or you know it there's no limit

limiting what what you can use but it will help a lot to like the the biggest friction point let's say I want to onboard my friends you know I've got a lot of friends all are excited to hear about it the first step where you have to explain them to install metamask you know create a wallet deposit you're losing them somewhere along the way and even if let's say you do all that and then you let them lose kind of now you can use it they're probably gonna get scammed within like one month because they still lack the fundamental understanding of how to protect their private key and how to you know protect themselves against all the scamlings of unlimited allowances Etc so I do feel account obstruction and just letting

users use DFI as you said it without having the complexity or even necessarily knowing what's going on underneath but knowing that they are that the the this trustless Factor plays in um yeah I think that's the way to go and we're talking here about gasless transactions you know just yeah Simplicity as it's fine is using your Google account to to do whatever you you want to do now and and can do it with with the overtime step very cool and and I think this is is intertwined with the other aspect that you mentioned is coming out soon which is a third-party telegram integration for sending orders into the into the uh the overtime liquidity Market

how do you view this connection with the market like you guys have liquidity and and there's other front ends in addition to the overtime front end that are sending order flow into the exchange like what is your mental model for integrating like business Integrations with the web 3 market and the web 2 Sports Market as well yeah that's exactly we are kind of well I wouldn't say pivoting but the the long-term play here is to be a white labeling solution if you will where we provide and not just provide uh the odds but provide the liquidity so like you have zero risks as a

third-party integrator and you can capture a referral fee that's already packed into the contract so if you are creating let's say you would create now a front-end on top on overtime you could capture a fee from every trade that happens through your uh front end and that's just already baked in into the contracts but you can always add your own fees because what we always aim to to continuously improve is have higher liquidity and lower spreads so that the odds are on or on par with if you will Pinnacle at this point and definitely the best in the web free world describe Pinnacle for anyone like who's listening who isn't understand maybe they know you know they're familiar with

sports betting but not so much kind of like the ins and outs what is pinnacle I I I wouldn't be able to describe its history or Inception but Pinnacle is known to be the sharpest Sport Book out there so with the the best odds best liquidity and you know just smallest spread so it's always the the you know the the example people use to compare odds against got it so so the idea of overtime is to be the Pinnacle of of web three so decentralized uh uh peer-to-peer trustless non-custodial liquidity and the sharpest odds out there exciting spreads exactly

got it and then and then how are like like how are bar stool Sportsbook FanDuel DraftKings ESPN is is launching their own sports that I saw last week how do those Sports books interact with Pinnacle I'm not sure that they do per se but they probably do because Pinnacle has the sharpest odds makers out there I do think it's not completely transparent as everything in web 2 isn't right so um I I'd say they probably use Pinnacle as a reference point as the starting odds and just build from there and no one can beat Pinnacle in terms of the the odds sharpness and just how how

tight their spreads are so that's definitely you know the the route for everyone let's say I don't I don't want to make this podcast about Pinnacle I I so this is my last my last question there like what makes them so sharp um yeah so I I again not that they are that transparent but besides being the sharpest mind Minds who who I think a lot of people who are working for Pinnacle started by being uh on the betting side of Pinnacle and have proven to be profitable which tells you know Pinnacle okay so you know something we don't we it's better for us to hire you right and have you make the odds instead

that's one part of their success the other is that they have the highest traction so when they release the odds Millions if not billions of of money like if we are talking Super Bowl the odds are gonna get rebalanced straight away but by the sharp money and they have this leverage and when we get to that point that we have such Traction in such volume that we can straight just publish odds and have them armed straight away I'd say we we have you know been very successful yeah and that's that's what product Market fit looks like in this in this case awesome and and maybe we can talk more about that rebalancing in that Arbitrage because it's something that I found fascinating like I started off I

actually found Bitcoin by playing poker in high school I would anyway like so so it was something that fascinated me right away was like when when these Sports books are taking money for for games um maybe all the money comes on one side of of the of the line and then the sports book has to go find somewhere to to lay off that action right or you know get money on the other side so that they can rebalance and and just take the spread in the middle so how how are sports books finding other uh operators or other liquidity providers to take the other sides of these bets is there like another yeah go ahead yeah I think well

I'm not sure what web to books do but like what we do is uh if everyone's taking one site you continuously make that site less attractive or more expensive depends how you look at it look at it and you make the other side more profitable so you have captured already some of the fees or the spread and you have this luxury history of giving a much better payout on the other side which automatically attracts users to the other users to the other side and you let users ARP the market and the users if they see that let's say the the Super Bowl and you know whoever is playing I'm not an NFL expert but you you know they you make the odds let's say if there were 50 50 you give a much

better payout on the other side and then they find maybe Pinnacle or whatever other sports book it could be web tour web free and they make bets on both like taking the opposite teams and no matter what happens they will be winning which is you know the nature of Arbitrage so that's how you get the rebalancing without having to do anything yourself as a house you you use you let the users arbit for you so so that's almost like the the uh product Market fit the goal for overtime yeah how does how does overtime get to that point it's already happening to some extent but to get you know much more volume you actually have to keep improving the odds make them sharper and the sharper the

odds the smaller your spread is the more arbitrary you Arbitrage you are prone to have with other books and then you can leverage some of these multi-billion you know industry and a lot all this money that's going through Sports market and some of it is bound to find you because you're offering just you know Arbitrage opportunities and you know ultimately I think that's relatively easy to tap into and we're already headed that way right now got it so let me let me make sure I understand you're saying that um all things being equal uh like you know liquidity user experience convenience all that being equal uh the money will flow to where the sharpest

odds are 100 wherever the price the user can get the best price that's where they're going to go so 100 yeah if if it doesn't matter if it's overtime DraftKings FanDuel uh bar stool right wherever I can get the best price for the Patriots I'm gonna go to the sports book where I can get the best price definitely it might not be you personally but you know you you you would get it maybe on FanDuel or wherever but that you would create this Arbitrage opportunity for someone to find over time so like volume is bound to flow which is an argument to actually always continue to make your odds sharper and even reduce your margin

because you'll get more volume out of the box so it could create for interesting Dynamics for sure yeah yeah it does it it leads me to believe that the rich become richer because when your volume is higher you can make sharper odds and then when you make sharper odds you can get more volume and then it's a it's a it's a growing cycle it's a flywheel that might get us to being the most dominant liquidity layer in in web free and also our Tech kind of plays into it I already said that we guarantee 100 so let's see that no no one else does but the reason this telegram bot only took like three days to to create an integration is that we've made everything very modular very

decentralized our architecture is very easy to tap into it's 100 transparent open source so like all the decentralization um you know everything the guiding points that that we we need to all use so yeah I think that will also help just having more and more third-party um in integrators tap into and offer a better ux to to users yeah we're not better per se but you know just different I guess uh-huh yeah I can imagine like many different like fantasy or like sports Finance applications that can build on top of this liquidity layer and then what what does an ideal integration look like to over time

what I would like to see uh is actually a web a web 2 provider integrating over time which would mean that the web tool provider handles all the regulation that needs to it needs to handle gets the license you know creates a front-end creates a mobile application uh creates a Fiat credit card on RAM for users because I'm not sure even with user abstraction that part is going to be a bit difficult but there is no reason I'm even thinking of doing it myself you know set up a company an entity wherever get a a license from you know all those countries that are relatively easy to get a license from uh for for gaming and then allow users to to use a sports book

where you actually collaterize every position by using overtime in the background and I and as I said there is incentive for someone to do that by because there are out of the box referrals that you can capture which is currently 0.5 percent of every of every trade which would be like five cents on the dollar right or or 0.5 or it would be 0.5 yeah right yeah yeah um but I mean if you're talking millions that kind of starts growing and you can add because of as I was saying you know we have tight spreads we all we try to to provide sharp odds you can add your own spread to it and what I'm saying is you have zero risks and you can capture profit by doing this

I guess the only not risk but you know the only investment is just starting this company and your own time of course well interesting and the web 2 Sports books already have the users they already have all of the order flow flowing into their their book this is providing them a more liquid exchange for their users to counterparty their orders with exactly I mean but you know there are sports books that are struggling to capture risks and they become insolvent and you know then they get into trouble this guarantees that you cannot become insolvent you are not putting any of your money to risk and maybe arguably arguably for some bigger players it

doesn't make sense at this point because they get large profit by you know handling all these these risks by by themselves but I do think there will be an opportunity and someone will come up sooner rather than later and say I want to use overtime and I want to be able to build a web 2 product casino whatever with all the licenses but yeah I just use overtime and blockchain in the background to guarantee solids and I think that's when we actually have seen adoption of you know web free and blockchain product into something you know in within webto industry yeah it's the Both Worlds it's the convenience and the the smooth user experience of web 2 with the peer-to-peer trustless decentralized uh

uh uh efficiency and um censorship resistance of web three taking combining those two means I I have this Mega application that is both easy and secure and I think I think that's massive for the sports Finance industry yeah totally agree so so Switching gears here like one one way that a web 2 company could do that is like fantasy sports right because that's very fun you know it's it's not inherently like monetary and I think that is where a lot of the users are in like the sports world like so have you seen any like fantasy sports experimentation in um the web 3 world

I've seen a bunch of projects uh I think there was one called leaked out that I I don't know if it's around anymore um actually you know it's it's been on my my mind as well on how we can integrate more of you know fantasy I I'm an avid fantasy player as well but for you for England Premier League so not NFL I also play NBA fantasy and and I do think if we could figure out but I'm not quite there yet like brainstorming wise how we can leverage and integrate fantasy into overtime besides doing what we're doing right now which is like engaging our community by sponsoring some fantasy leagues and and you know whatever but there's definitely

opportunity to to use the tech in terms of using nfts for example to to present every every player I mean that's kind of an obvious use case right for it or but but when you're talking to monitor you're talking about how to monetize this and how to allow users to maybe on a bet on fantasy or or on out actually I have seen for England Premier League I have seen our local sports book offering I don't know if you play if you play it but they offer how many fantasy points will a certain player uh score in that game week and then you can bet you know whether it's gonna be more or less so maybe that's one of the use cases yeah that this is prize picks Pro I've seen I watched some YouTube right like

prize picks is is all over the map and it's just over unders it's like will Nikola jokic score more than 40 points over under right and then it's that that over under is a binary option right yeah yeah we called those player procs and we are definitely releasing those soon so in time for NFL and and uh NBA season for sure but I guess what they meant here because uh England Premier League fantasy is a bit specific um you can you can bet on whether a player will have more than let's say Five Points which means he either scores or creates an assist so it kind of captures both but yeah ultimately just realize definitely on player props and just does some combinations with those

cool yeah and then and then if you can like uh have a set of player props uh maybe that's your team and then you can compete against someone else it would be really cool to do like Head to Head matchups yeah um I don't know exactly how that would look but like I'm a fantasy sports player myself uh NFL is coming up so I uh I've been getting texts you know from people oh we're doing our draft soon and it's like oh um yeah we are very excited about the NFL season uh as I said we we are just preparing to launch player props for for the NFL season we have huge incentives campaigns so yeah I think it's gonna be

huge for our time cool so Zoom zooming out a little bit like uh for the rest of like crypto the rest of blockchain like what are what are some of the things in this ecosystem that you are really excited about that are maybe not exactly what you're what overtime is building Earth dailies is building what are some of the other things that you know you think are really interesting no I I might need to take a moment to think about it we already touched upon upon user abstraction I'm I'm really eager to see that finally released and you know if it does what we are hopeful it will do which it is definitely like 10x the the user number um

I I want to say it as a joke but it will definitely be much easier for me to talk about the things I don't like in this space uh than the things I like which I don't know what's what it says it says exactly but yeah it is what it is I'm I'm a coder in nutshells so what what I really love is you know just coding I love what smart conscious can do and I love all the the text the tech aspect of it I'm excited about the uh ape uh four four four four four sorry four eight four four which will make L2 transactions like 10 to 100 times cheaper thus allowing us and and over time entails are really a protocol

that leverages smart contracts to a level that has not been seen before in terms of how much complexity we put into smart contracts which you know having said it like that maybe sounds not so great but like parlays for example when a user creates an eight leg parlay in overtime it actually the the smart contract actually goes and buys eight individual positions to collaterize that parlay 100 and this takes up maybe 10 million gas units which on layer one it will be like one thousand dollars for a transaction but on Layer Two is like one dollar and we can get that one dollar even to like 10 cents maybe after this ap's release but then again I'm excited

about it because that means maybe we can make even more interesting stuff like that you know and and maybe you can also like over time right now is on arbitrum and optimism yeah yes so with l2s sorry if you want to go ahead and expand um yeah so we we're also excited about the base chain we we plan to to make a full deployment there and to go strong like building a community and everything and I think that's you know a big thing as well so yeah multi-chain is is huge like one of the things I I texted red before before we hopped on was like the difference between fat application thesis and fat protocol thesis and and

originally I was a believer in fat protocol thesis I was like you know I thought uh it was very it was the the argument was very laid out it's very it seemed very intuitive that the that the value would flow down to the networks because people are paying gas for real estate on the blockchain networks recently my mindset has started to change because we see something like uniswap once uniswap deploys to a new a new network they get all of the volume for instance take Avalanche Avalanche was like you know Trader Joe was like the home decentralized exchange on avalanche now Avalanche is like dead and Trader Joe has gone to another chain

it's like the networks and the protocols don't survive the applications with brand recognition tend to survive so now I've recently started to shift into the fat application thesis because it's the brands that have the recognition they they are the ones getting fat and the liquidities follows them so when you're thinking about the next Network like base to deploy over time to what what goes into that do you think ultimately over time we'll go multi-chain and and incorporate all chains um and and have you thought so so maybe we can start there and then we can talk more about the fat application and the fat protocol thesis

yeah I mean you kind of already made a good point of um of how the protocols survive the chains many many times I'm definitely not a fan of and we had this like last defy summer with all the ethereum killers how many have survived um and now we're having that with l2s and we're having seemingly L freeze although I'm not I I I would argue that those are not actual elfries but I don't think we need hundreds of chains to be honest when we are struggling even getting like 100 unique users on the main L2 chains so um I think that's creating and maybe

that's being pushed by a VC narrative or whatever but I think that's even creating and slowing down the adoption if you will per se you know by diluting already relatively small user base um but I do think a chain such as a base chain that we all hope would make the on-ramping very very easy for lots of users I do think that's the chain you want to be present on and establish a community and just you know presence overall from from day one if possible um optimism in arbitrome and and that's where I think you you do need to have a healthy competition between them they are doing uh similar things like being

actually decentralized minus the sequencer discussion but decentralized l2s and they create this healthy competition where they both try to make you know the other one better or actually succeed in making the other one better but yeah we I don't think we need 15 20 evm compatible chains um and we definitely have to make some choices where we want to deploy but long-term Vision I I'd say it would be much better to get to a place where you could still be deployed on one chain solely but be available on other chains or for users from any chain which maybe ccip manages to pull off yeah I I think so I I like um when when we think about liquidity

now we think about you know liquidity on arbitrum or liquidity on on um optimism and in the future I I think we're going towards liquidity on overtime where it doesn't really it's not really on it's going to be on arbitrum or on optimism or on base or another chain but it doesn't really feel like it's separate it kind of feels like over tones it all together and then there's like a multi-chain router that allows someone from a different chain to deposit so that it can go wherever it's the sharpest right wherever the liquidity is deepest and that's that's what synthetics is building uh and I think they're making and synthetics has been for a while making

decisions that are driven by this long-term decentralized vision and it might have costed them some traction along the way but when you think about it that's where what the future needs to look like at least you know you use synthetics that's one like one app one fat app you will and teleport is already being released so you can actually you know migrate your depth or your susd from optimism to say arbitruement days but no one will actually look at look at it like tvl on arbitrome or base I mean maybe you know some people but it's actually still just part of synthetics and that that that's it right and that's what we want to do as well but we feel for what we are doing right now

especially with overtime because we are pushing all of our odds to the blockchain and that's actually kind of expensive but you need to be very fast you need to be very sharp you know there are sharks out there who are just waiting for like player injury news to front run Yachts so yeah with that in mind that the tech isn't quite out there yet for us to to still be just on one chain but be available on other chains so we have to do Native deployments still understood makes sense so so maybe before I still want to give you an opportunity to talk about everything you don't like maybe before we do that maybe we can talk a little bit more about this account abstraction because I think it I think

it fits into the multi-chain thesis um where eventually like synthetics teleporter is going to allow like let you know open up a multi-chain deployment type of a world like how how do you guys you mentioned it's a third party what I when I think of account abstraction maybe others think about it like this I think about uh sign in with ethereum right next to sign in with Google sign in without the signs how do you is that is that your kind of like mental model for account abstraction or do you think there's another approach what what is the the what what is the right approach when it comes to account abstraction

it's difficult to say what's right what what I'm hopeful for for is that um it's still what maintains all the decentralization values so that there's there's no like provider of user abstraction that will hold all the user keys because I think that will be a step backward as well um but what I imagine it will do and this is you know following up on what we just discussed is a user will be able to sign in would be that Google whatever Facebook or even ethereum wallet but in in the news overtime or whatever their favorite tap is but ultimately not have any idea of which blockchain is being

used underneath and this is also this will eventually make things very easy for us because while we love all those chains that we mentioned it's definitely an overhead to manage a deployment and liquidity and you know dilution in every sense from like resourcing and attention to users across multiple chains so yeah that's why what I'm hopeful to see and and where do the key where do the keys where are they stored right because the user doesn't have the key because it's abstracted away from them so where does and and there are solutions like account abstraction kind of solutions out there like magic web3

off there's these Solutions out there that they hold the keys I I think they hold the keys I don't want to I don't want to put that out there because maybe they have a more complex storage solution so so my question is like where in the ideal account abstraction where where are the keys stored so my understanding of it is um that actually no one holds the key technically but maybe indirectly if you're using your Google login I I believe the combination of your email address or just Google authentication creates a unique wallet that can be only yours and no one else's so out of the box you own the key because you own your Google account and no one else owns it apart from maybe

Google if you want to argue that but yeah I think that's the way it's intended to be okay yeah this is a conversation that I hope will open up the door to the masses because people like they don't you like you said earlier you tell them to install metamask and right away they're like no thanks you know so I I hope that um the the few users we see and and it's all across it's not just you know Sports fi it's D5 it's game five it's all these industries where blockchain creates a more trustless economy they don't have the users because the user experience and especially the onboarding experience

is not quite there I mean people if you want to get started a little bit on the things they don't like people have yeah so people are now using massively telegram Bots and kudos to those that created those Bots because they obviously found a great product fit but I struggle to to believe or however I want to phrase it um that people have zero issues giving private keys of boards that have non-trivial uh funds to you know a web a database an SQL database because let's be honest here all those telegram Bots like they all store your private keys and they have full control of it um roll bit is seeing massive success and you know definitely I'm a little bit

jealous and you know everyone's thinking like why isn't over time seeing this the the success of or overall bit but like it's nothing else than a web 2 sports book that has a crypto on ramp so like I don't think we even compare it would be the same to say like why isn't overtime seeing the success of DraftKings well they've been before like 15 years they're in the market for like 15 years or whatever and they have billions on all so like give us time and maybe we get there but you know it seems like we go through all these cycles and you hope that people learn some lessons about the red flags and and everything and you know the decentralization matter but you know something new pops up or maybe just few months after you know the Luna

crashes and people already forget about it and we are at it you know all over again so that's being a bit frustrating for me in this space definitely uh and and FTX right like let's not forget SBF is in jail right now and and the same thing that happened to FTX because they custody user funds could happen to DraftKings the CEO could go leverage to the gills on on all the user funds that are deposited into DraftKings by himself mansions in the Bahamas and now all of a sudden the the money that you put into DraftKings is not there because the the founder took it into the mansion in the Bahamas and we've seen it like how many times did it happen right so and when with banks as well so that's I think the the value we are trying to

create here to to lose that kind of Risk by having everything transparent I mean that's what smart contracts were intended to do to begin with so I still believe that's what they should be used for and that's what we're enforcing here yeah yeah I I think you're right on the money bro I I think so I think it's very important because these these black boxes they can happen in any industry it can happen in in finance it can happen in sports finance and anytime that there's money at stake just look at when they start to run out of money FTX didn't start to loan out customer funds until Alameda was almost insolvent and they started losing tons of money what happens when DraftKings you know

spends all of its money trying to compete with FanDuel and they go advertising you know and all they spend all of their money and then they have to go they have to go raise they have to go generate more Revenue that's when they start to play around with the user funds right what is this chapter 11 right so yeah that's it yeah chapter 11 never helps the the yeah the end user the normal end user per se so right all the founders and the executives still get their bonuses and the the person who put their deposit and trusted DraftKings they're they're out of luck because the money's gone it's in chapter 11 it's getting paid to lawyers and Executives exactly Yeah man so as we wrap up you know uh

about five minutes left here like what are what are some closing thoughts if you have um you know anything um also um we we're gonna put all the links in the description um to overtime and and we're really thankful for you guys and and really excited for this partnership because of all the things that we talked about I think and and and you know there's so much trust right now in sports Finance I think that uh there's a lot of decentralization that can take place so what what are you guys um you know any closing thoughts like what on on your side I I guess it makes sense to talk about uh a little bit about the roadmap um we we talked about uh account abstraction we touched about player

props which you know have been in great demand I do want to make kind of a disclaimer there um I I think we are one of the the fastest based teams in in defy we we roll out things quickly with good quality but you know it did take us a while to introduce player props because you know everything is peer-to-peer so we are kind of we have to protect the liquidity providers as well and and everything we do um requires special consideration like when we add a new sport like golf uh we have to analyze you know all the risks we have to just generate code so it's different from again DraftKings or robit where every new sports Market is just a

new new line of SQL code or whatever um so yeah player props are coming and after that we're gonna tackle live betting which would again be the first in web free I'm pretty sure no one has done it and no one has done it with smart contracts for sure and I'm hopeful you know maybe start of NBA season is a bit optimistic that's like end of October but until end of year I'm really excited to deliver you know the first live betting on on the web free um and yeah we already talked about deploying to base chain and we are very excited to also offer overtime on page chain so I think yeah that's that's maybe enough in in terms of Road web well here I'll keep going as far as

what's available right now um so guys it's overtime markets.xyz right now there's soccer football baseball fighting Sports which is MMA UFC boxing uh tennis Esports Motorsports and and now golf uh like like you mentioned so all those Sports I mean definitely definitely very very very sharp odds um trustless peer-to-peer decentralized and non-custodial censorship resistance so you guys are not going to get banned you know like there's no there's um large there's deep liquidity so you guys can make large trades you're not going to get kicked off the platform for winning

um so it's censorship resistant um and right there's there's incentives happening so if you you if you do well and you place volume you guys have I think it's 180 000 thales 90 000 are the 90 000 op that is up for grabs and that's you know that's extra incentives that you guys can use whether it's you know to to offset some of your losses or if it's just uh you know for having fun on the platform that's that's extra bonuses uh for using overtime yeah it's plus EV exactly exactly deep liquidity sharp odds and uh positive EV we love it um the the last question that that we

have we ask everyone that comes on the podcast um if you were stuck in an elevator with anyone uh and you had to explain um what you're building with thales and overtime um who would you choose to be stuck in an elevator with and why wow wow so so you ask everyone everyone has a an answer on the spot yeah so and and I'll give you a hint to the last person that we had on the podcast it was uh swell Network to LSD fi uh protocol he was the first person to say Satoshi out of 105 podcasts it took 105 people to answer that question before someone said Satoshi

I mean I'm gonna take the opposite approach and say I I would like to meet the roll bit founder and just have a very very deep argument with him about you know how they are you know just being toxic for the whole environment and uh yeah just yeah just ask him when he will rock basically and to do it sooner rather than later yeah for real man for real I mean we already saw centralized exchanges uh take the tumble right with three arrows Capital FTX um and Luna um I think it's just a matter of time between seven but uh until centralized sportsbooks uh fall to the same fate um and then and then maybe just a matter

of time before centralized Banks fall to the same fate as well we'll we'll see um that that might have a larger impact so yeah so I'm not I'm not hoping for that but who knows well Daniel it was it was an absolute pleasure thank you for coming on this was a lot of fun I feel like I learned a lot especially from the perspective of like being in web 3 and then onboarding massive web 2 users um I think you guys are doing a great job of introducing blockchain and decentralization to the masses so thank you for the good work and and please keep it up thank you for having me it's been a pleasure cheers cheers bye