Decrypting Eastern Crypto, ID and Proof of Personhood with Terence Kwok

Transcript

proving that you're a human being is actually one of only one of the attributes that we want to be proving do you expect more adoption on the mobile or on the humanity scanner we are going to be rolling out these devices around the world so that people can actually go scan and what we're scanning are our two things welcome back to the rollup your home for technical talks and open conversations that shape the modular future nothing on today's show is to be construed as Financial advice you can see our full disclosures list at the roll up.co Ventures sit back relax and enjoy today's episode after a quick word from some of our awesome Partners Redstone is def's modular Oracle supporting over 100 clients on over 50 chains offering 1,000 assets

Redstone is the leader for Bitcoin staking and yield bearing assets they offer the most robust customizable price feeds available in any model join the Redstone exhibition today all right Terrence we are in Hong Kong your native Homeland here how do you feel about the event so far this week and uh welcome to the rup for the first time uh well welcome to Hong Kong um I think it's uh it's a lot of energy right you know I I I I strolled through I did a I did a panel this morning um stroll through the conference uh it's uh I think it's a very good first edition

for uh uh for for consensus uh and hopefully you know it happens more in uh in town yeah I mean there's there seems to be a buzz around positivity and bullishness even though I think this the sentiment outside of Bitcoin right now is a little bit kind of shaky uh this event for me is kind of characterized around institutions coming in and really being curious see that there's a lot of Hong Kong native like like the Hong Kong dollar announcement uh and a lot of kind of native uh people from Hong Kong and tions really wanting to get in involved here so has that Trend kind of grown over the last couple years like like what's been your experience doing business here um I think you know I I think historically Hong Kong is a

financial center right you know I think uh prior to co it was historically always sort of the the second largest talk exchange uh in the world you know uh after after after New York um and so there are a lot of financial professional in town uh whether it's locals from China expats whatnot um and I think you know obviously with with digital assets with crypto a very big component of it is is finance right like um that's still one of the big big use cases and so I think uh people are are super excited uh the government is also uh rolled out regulation for uh fre exchanges um for

licensing uh so in general I think I think everybody's uh super wiish yesterday I was actually uh an event uh organized by Yak from Anoka um where the uh Financial secretary was there with us as well as the uh as the uh the regulator for the Securities uh commission so I think you know they're they're all very happy to engage and uh and be part of the web3 ecosystem awesome well we're here at the uh humanity and the rollup open house day two had a good party last night good turnout um this is the first time our audience has heard about Humanity so maybe you could give us the tldr and

maybe by starting about the problem space that we're looking at here with the evolution of of AI of of kind of digital identity and there's a lot of kind of verification verifiability is something that we talk about a lot on a show so maybe starting with kind of the the problem that you're aiming to solve would love to get a deeper understanding of what you're aiming to build with Humanity so you know with Humanity we're building an identity blockchain I think identity is something that a lot of people in the crypto space have been talking about for the longest time since the Ico days we we were promised so much since the Ico days you know all sorts of random stuff that you know people dream up but you know I think you know

decentralized identity dids blah blah blah that sort of stuff has always been sort of seen as something that should come will come and is probably more serious than than most of the other sort of icos uh that were happening but um I I don't think anybody's really been able to sort of pull it off um I don't think it's technology issue I think it's it's it's more sort of a goto Market uh issue and when we think about what we're trying to do with Humanity protocol um we are innovating with something called proof of humanity um and for us um proof of humanity involves partly uh proving that you a human being um you know we're we're leveraging bi metrics to do that uh I'll

I'll show probably a demo shortly but um we we the way we think about it is that proving that you're a human being is actually one of only one of the attributes that we want to be proving uh on Humanity protocol all right so for us uh we are actually using for fiable credentials natively integrated into the chain so that we can uh prove many different things potentially you know where you work uh where you know where you went to school uh you know your nationality your age um you know whether you're an accredit investor your your you know how much money you have whatever it is right um but starting

with the very core attribute which is whether you're a human being or not um and I think this is going to be more and more important um over the coming years I think you asked somebody two three years ago four years ago hey uh prove that you're a human being you know like you probably would find it pretty absurd um I think now uh that absurdity is has disappeared because it's very clear that especially in the online world you really can't tell yeah you know the social media accounts do you know whether it's really B it's a body or it's it's it's chat PT you know or is it a human being you know like you really can't tell them right um and then you

look at photos videos you know deep fake gen ated stuff you can't tell the idea of an original thought is or an original idea is quickly escaping our grasp AB absolutely as a society absolutely there's an existential question to answer is there any more original thoughts I it's I and I think you know but this is a separate topic but I think you know even thinking about like the next generation of kids in terms of Education like I think I think there a lot of unanswered questions and tools of how to deal with that um but back to back to what we're we're trying to do essentially I think we're we're Levering blockchain we're we're we're creating sort of uh credentials for many different things okay um prove

employment prove education prove you're not sanctioned you know prove you're in credit investor and there are many different use cases for this right so starting with sort of the the proof of personhood piece I think you know at least in in the crypto world the probably most common thing is like aird drops like you kind of want to make sure you're not sending uh aird drops to somebody who's controlling 20,000 addresses right um to their z uh but then you know you even look at like games right like cheating and and you kind of want to be to playing games against other people like it's it's it's it's kind of stupid when when you're not um and then all the way to you know looking at uh social media platforms like you know how do you know knowing that it's a person or not or it's it's

it's content that's that's created by AI um and then you look at stuff like LinkedIn you know you don't really whether it's true or not right like you told me you went to University of Florida I don't know if true you know but you might have been kicked out right like you really you know kicked out dropped out whatever like you literally don't know right like um short of me calling up the university um and checking against that right like somebody might say hey I work for this company and i' I've experienced that before Hing somebody where they say hey you know I've been working here for two years it turns out it's not true right um so so these sort of things I think uh will become more and more important uh time goes on where you know it's it's becoming easier and easier to fake

things to fake things right you know for financial benefit for social benefit for yeah there's there's a lot of there's a lot of reasoning as to why that this is happening um then okay so one push back here is I we are giving so much of our data to Big corporations today to governments corporations Etc we yet we trust these llms that were entering our queries into anthropic open AI Gro all these right and we don't really know what's happening with that so when it comes to building in this kind of blockchain oriented environment with Humanity how

how are you guys thinking about the the the user data question and the the the kind of privacy question around you know when I participate in my hand scanning or in my proof of person Ood or proof X Y and Z because how how are you thinking about the user protection which maybe is not the sexiest question but I the I think it's important right um so on the on the biometra side we use uh pal FR and pal veins for uh for scanning because every's unique um none of the raw data is ever stored you know we took it by met signature um and then hash it and use it for comparison right uh when it comes to other pieces of data uh what we're doing with Humanity protocol is we're relying on something we call

identity validators so the identity validators are the ones that you know issue the credential uh and you know the the that information does not sit with us does not sit on chain if your University wants to issue sort of uh a credential saying that you went to the university this is your GPA etc etc that data actually still sits with the university all they're doing is issuing issuing a credential onto the uh onto manity protocol and what is interesting about that is um by natively integrating this into uh our own blockchain uh we actually number one uh we have a home with with our own blockchain so DBS can build it there you know there there will be liquidity etc etc um we will provide

you know applications and developers with the ability to essentially prioritize transactions um or even permission transactions right so I might want to have an app where only a little bit like Facebook in the beginning I only want people were you know uh have Harvard from Harvard you know Harvard University email addresses to be able to sign up right like so so a little bit similar where we could actually say gations customizations we we you know this is an rwa platform with you know some exotic Securities and so uh we only want in credit investors to be able to uh to access the uh the application so these are things that we uh were able to do uh with Humanity protocol directly on Shan um

but then for us it's it's also about you know partnering and working with other uh blockchain so that we enable proof of humanity and proof of X Y and Z uh for the other blockchains uh we're partnering with ler zero for uh for for crou chain capabilities and then we're also or thing on integrating with some other blockchains directly yeah and so couple things there one I'm a big believer in sovereignty in terms of blockchains meaning that controlling your execution environment is very powerful it gives you a lot of options you can build Humanity as a purpose-built chain with specific customizations allowing for uh basically what we just talked about permissioned use cases uh verifications these types

of things but I think the blockchain stuff is kind of the aside here like the big idea is like the the total addressable market so I was on a podcast with oot yesterday we had him here we were talking about Founders picking the right game to play it's not necessarily how good you are at playing a specific game you're not the right game and what said I think is very valuable is that the biggest mistake that he's made in backing Founders is backing those who aren't playing for a large total addressable market like if the market for this product isn't massive or large enough then effectively it no matter how good the founder is sure yeah absolutely you want to build Facebook you don't want to build Facebook for cat lovers

correct you know and so but I think with Humanity the to Market here is B it it's everybody it's it's everybody so now about that yeah what's your strategy there the way we think about it is that you know toal address School Market is everybody everybody you know down the road will need some sort of verification um it it crosses many different Industries I think just now I mentioned you know there's blockchain but then there's also you know social media there's there's education there's employment we actually recently announced a partnership with DNA testing company right so you know proof of person it doesn't even just have to be biometrics you know you know it could even be your DNA right um so you know and that company actually is is listed

on ndaq they uh they also have cancer research arm right and so credentials for for research scientists in in the medical field that is interesting we recently also started installing some of the uh the Palm devices into uh into hospitals in Hong Kong for Access Control uh at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital so uh that's being used by doctors and and and their staff for for accessing places to make sure hey you know what you get access to this area but you don't right that sort of stuff so I I think it's it's it's it's it's it's massive and when I think about sort of uh applications and people that can do on top of that they there you know I I I can't even imagine the the the

number of things that people can can can do um and ultimately the way we look at this is something like Facebook what does Facebook have right uh or meta um it's a trillion dollar company where it's really just about owning all the different users and people right like data and relationships right so so how do we actually turn this you know Humanity poal I think the way we think about this sometimes is that we're building uh an open identity graph right so that open identity graph where you have you know different sort of attributes different sort of things that you want to verify uh it's privacy preserving it's self- Sovereign uh you get to choose who you want to present that information to uh I think will

become very very uh powerful yeah yeah so people can build using this data in a with your permission only you know like with with with the user's permission uh I think this this becomes pretty powerful and I think one other thing that's also interesting I think uh going back to what we were discussing earlier in terms of uh the IC days and identity and nobody's really been able to do it I think historically in the identity space um there are companies like Facebook where they want to own everything uh and uh they generate massive value for themselves uh by having that data and then you have

some projects that want to build sort of uh an open identity uh ecosystem platform or whatnot but I think sometimes uh some of these projects historically have been sort of swaying too hard the other way in the sense that they are incredibly f on making everything open everything free you know any and and I think the challenge for that also is you know uh then nobody really has an incentive and nobody can really you know really really scale it right I think the easiest way to think about this is you know if I if I create a system where everybody can be issuing credentials and and and and IDs for for other people uh quickly that you know and it's all free

then there's there's really no incentive for anybody real to go do it right you know I you know I I so what we're doing is you know as I mentioned we actually have roles that we call identity validators so it might be the University of Florida issuing a credential saying that you you went to school there um it might be you know you guys with with rollup issuing a credential for you and Robbie saying that you guys are co-founders and some of your staff are work work for the company um and then what we also have our what we call like ZK proofer notes that we're going to be launching and the whole idea is they're running the proofs for for presenting that information and if an application or AAP or somebody wants to make use of this information then they actually have

to pay uh a certain you know sort of verification fee to the notes uh to the network as well as to uh to the initial credential issuer so I was talking to uh to to a pretty big financial institution uh in Asia uh the CEO and he was saying you know he has 30 40 million customers that they've kyc um um they spent quite a fair bit of money kyc in these customers um what what you know how how can they get involved in in in something like human I said it'll be really interesting if you guys actually go issue provential saying that you know these people uh are you know kyc customers of of your fur because down the road when we look at sort of uh

defi uh and some of the regulation around that you know you kind of don't necessarily want to be kyc you know for every single platform and frankly you know uh it might not even be necessary but if I if I simply say hey you know what if I might be comfortable as a platform even in defi saying okay you know what if you are already credential if you have a credential verified by JP Morgan yeah or HSBC or Goldman tells me you're a high net worth individual I probably trust that you're a high Network and and through the power of ZK I actually don't need to provide comp with that info just the the proof that I'm that that the information is is correct and it's been verified okay and so that kind of brings the that brings

that that aspect uh into and that also answers some of the data privacy question right which is I think important so we have identity validators and there's also ZK proof nodes or these are one and the same they are two separate things two separate things yeah so the validators the identity validators are they the ones they're the ones issuing the credential okay they're the ones issuing the credentials um and then the ZK proofers are the ones are are you know node Runners that that that are running the proofs so they're so they so the ZK proof nodes are the ones achieving consensus yes to validate the blocks yeah okay and then the identity not to validate blocks just to just to just to validate the uh just to validate the validity of the uh the credentials whether it's tired whether it's correct

etc etc and then providing that information to uh to the uh the applications in a in a privacy preserving wayed okay um we have the the device here um so maybe we can turn it on and we we can give it a shot here and just kind of understand what's happening uh first and foremost yeah so it's it's it's pretty cool I think you know if uh I mean I I'm registered already so the um the way we are doing this is that you know we have a dedicated Hardware where uh We've started rolling them out in a bunch of pop-ups around the world you know um I think we've done popups in a bunch of cities in Europe uh we've been I think I think we've probably scanned

at least you know 50 100 people in the last day or two even in in Hong Kong here um but the uh what we're doing actually is uh this is on the on the Biometrics on the proof of humanity piece uh the very first attribute we want to we want to we want to sort out um and what we're doing is essentially you can sign up on our testnet uh test N.H humanity.org uh you get a human ID uh and then what we're doing is uh we are going to be rolling out these devices around the world so that people can actually go scan and what we're scanning are are two things one is your palm print uh and the other thing is your palm vein um so the the print is sort of the uh the surface level

patterns and creases on your hand um the veins is obviously the blood vessels underneath right so both of these things are completely unique to anybody in the world um and you know we're scanning both hands uh and essentially we can make sure that you know you're out of the 8 billion people who you are essentially um and we a little bit different from sort of worldcoin uh where they're scanning their you know people's irises which is also unique I think this opens up uh a lot of different opportunities um for sort of offline use cases also right I mentioned Access Control payments maybe ticketing uh that sort of stuff and then uh one interesting factor with scanning the

Palm also is because whilst a palm vein does require the dedicated uh Hardware module that we have this right here yeah for for for the infrared PS um the print can actually be captured just by your own smartphone um and as such we can actually also use that for uh for just on my phone right so if I if I if I just do this um since I'm registered on the uh dnet it could actually easily recognize that yeah this is my human ID and I think you read n you can also quickly do this Y and it all yeah so so

that imagine imagine like that at scale imagine this at scale where like for example you're consensus ticket easily you could just be tied to this right so instead of bringing my ID and having to show photo of myp because I had to show them a photo of my passport I could just scan my hand that and then on top of and and then from a security perspective once you've done that you know uh pass for and ID thing and you got your pass yes you know I technically you you technically could give it to somebody else and they could easily walk in because you know they're not going to obviously check every single time you go through security course right but in this case we could literally make this hey you know what you just go every time you know and and we can ensure uh that you

know people aren't passing around their their their their VIP passes or that sort of stuff innovating Finance Global institutional and onchain deep liquidity to drive Capital efficiency now maximize yields on institutional grade liquid staking with M unlock trillion dollars of capital via F Bitcoin all of this secures by mantle treasury of billions in stables and E Capital Pools this entire ecosystem is coordinated by a vast network of season PS that are aiming to create the next generation of Banking and Financial technology this is mantle

so does this device have a name then uh yes so we call this to humanity scanner but we actually have a number of different form factors that are coming out so this is the biggest one okay uh where has a screen you know this is mainly used for enrollment um but then we actually also will be launching a module where you can literally just plug into your own device a tiny little thing you can plug into your own smartphone um for verification purposes uh and then we also are rolling out you know we roll out a different form factor in the hospital in Queen Elizabeth Hospital for uh for door with Access Control etc etc so but um so would you say that this is more this is for more like I suppose like serious or secure use cases whereas

the phone is more mobile it's more accessible it can be used for things that maybe require not that there's any difference between the palm and the vein per se in the technology that you guys have built but in the accessibility aspect would you say that the that that do you expect more adoption on the mobile or on the humanity scan so from from our perspective we don't consider you a fully verified human being unless you've gone through the which may be useful for a hospital door entry but for a entry into a bar or entry into a a a I don't know verifying or whatever we can allow people to just do it with yeah with the mobile app absolutely um especially when especially if uh if

the sample Set uh of people is much more limited right so so when you think about sort of Biometrics um you there there's one toone matching which is essentially your face I right when you when you go to your phone you you want to log in it's not checking against anything else it's literally just checking against that historical record of you yes right um and then what we just did just now even with the uh with P print is one to end right so essentially saying okay you know what who is this person right um if it's just a pal print frankly one to n that n uh cannot be very big okay yeah that n cannot be very big or else take a while to figure out is no because the

problem is with just a mobile device um with just a mobile device to challenge with your own phone camera is that the uh the lighting conditions and different s of thingses might be different right so if it's too dark or you know it may not recognize right um but then with with the vein piece then you know it's it's very robust right so so for us um it's different form factors for different use cases but um ultimately uh as you saw just now like it would be very convenient for payment use Cas cases for for for for Access Control use cases for uh you know for uh red you know when you send a wire transfer in the in today's world what they give you

if you're a large client I'm sure you know this you have the little device and you have numbers on it and it's like a little two factor that you put into your phone and your computer when you're sending a a wire but it's it's like an analog two Factor but it's somehow is still connected it's like a battery in there or digital this is like this is very much it's based on the time stamp yeah exactly B time and so this is very much so uh could could replace something like that right where absolutely like you you have to plug in plug it into your your device and it's it's like I'm doing this that's me uh could also replace things like uh Ledger signings and things like that and multi sigs and there's a lot of Crypton native and non Crypton native use cases but couple more

things for you um when you're thinking about bringing this to the market what's unique about Humanity protocol for the crypto space is that it's a physical and a digital equation here there's users on chain there's users of their Network and crypto native land but that's not really who I think you're trying to appeal to in the immediate mid and especially long term I think it's really about getting people on through these physical devices so talk to me about your go to market how will you get people people to adopt Humanity scanners and the apps and then this is going to segue into your business model and why you need a token so I think you know we from a go to market strategy I think we're we're

doing two things right we consider there to be sort of a b Toc component where we are you know uh getting people on board scanning maybe their potential incentives um their potential incentives and uh uh you know these are probably crypto native people or or or or people were at least familiar with uh with blockchain um and then you know there's sort of General use cases where we are building uh you know ourselves or with with ecosystem projects and whatnot uh probably products that abstract all of this away right so you don't need to know uh this could be a ticketing solution this could be uh this could be

a ticketing solution this could be an access control solution in the back it still runs through man protocol but for General user they wouldn't know what's the difference right like if you sign up for for testnet now you can directly use a social login with Google with Facebook with Twitter to to sign up so we want to make that user experience super super simple um and then the other way we think about this is also I think proof of humanity is one piece but some of the other credentials we do want to go through sort of a beta B to C uh sort of model what I mean by that is when you when we work with say something like University of Florida uh it could easily be the case that University of Florida uh issues a you know student credential for all the students in which case

they've just helped us on board you know 50,000 people right um we have proof of employment that's we're going to be rolling out very soon um I think that's absolutely pertinent in the crypto space I'm sure a bunch of people have you know pretended to be you I mean look at North Korea um developers hacking protocols faking as developers like pretending and then hacking yes and and I have I I mean I God knows how many people have pretended to be exchanges to to to to message me um I've had people pretend to be journalists they do that now and they're getting Zoom calls and they're hacking all these things they pretending to be journalists etc etc um I have a friend who actually uh had it had her telegram

account hacked um and then sent a bunch of messages to her friends including me I almost got y uh I was kind of Lucky but yep so how does that tight into the bdbc so so the idea is that you know it will be interesting if the uh if the companies themselves are issuing these credentials for their employees y right and then that essentially I'm dealing with that identity validator that identity validator does this then they help me onboard people also yeah right so instead of me having to necessarily Market to to to you know all the users of you know all the employees of Anoka everybody you know he just G simply say could simply say okay you know what I'm just going to issue a credential for all of my employees yeah

or yeah you go to like the the the a top down approach from a company perspective and they effectively have a new have a new part of their policy internally or a new recommendation from the CEO that everybody joins this uh verification Network right something like exactly simple right um and then that allows you to then just basically use your relationships that you built your network but it's an exponential return where you just your points of communic a are you know who who you know and who you can be put in touch with and they can scale absolutely from there so so then with that being said what's the business model for you for Humanity how do you guys make money how do you guys generate Revenue so we we see ourselves as like sort of an in infrastructure

play right and so so you know obviously the uh the prols governed by uh by a foundation uh by a Humanity Foundation were you know there's UI who's the acting CEO he used to be uh was a Princeton Stanford guy who who was uh Morgan Stanley um and then their their other two board directors are actually Mara Neal and and Y um from Adam Moka um the way we think about this is that ultimately we want all the value for Humanity protocal to acrw to to a token um and how we're doing that is that essentially as I mentioned identity validators uh will have to stake uh tokens in order to be able to uh to

issue these credentials um node holders will uh the the sort of node people writing the nodes will will get some sort of reward um but that reward comes from uh verification fees that are being paid natively by the uh with with with the token right so that token uh if I want to check for certain things I want to check if you know uh you're a human being or I want to check you know are you are you American right you know I'll pay uh a certain you know verification fee where that fee will be split between uh the not the nodes uh the network um as well as the uh as well as the initial identity validator that issued the credentials okay and that fee is is

charged to the end user or to the fee is the fee would be charged to the uh the application the DAP that wants to verify things it's up to them if they want to put that fee on the user user whatever right yeah they and then so when you guys go to bring this to somebody like yeah enoka you're not charging them to be I'm not charging them I'm not charging them but the the the likelihood is that there would be a staking requirement in order for them to go issue credentials because we don't want everybody to be you know I don't want anybody and everybody to be uh able to uh to uh issue credentials that you know it kind of doesn't make sense uh but

doesn't it help the network if you have more and more credentials so down the road we're still figuring this out right but down the road we would potentially have uh a dow that that sort of governs hey who gets to issue credentials and sort of the staking requirements etc etc um but to start you know it's it's sort of a a slightly more centralized effort by uh by us to uh to to to onboard them um they would stake tokens in order to to be able to issue these credentials um they wouldn't get charged for that um in fact if they issue these credential and these credentials get used by an application uh they would actually get paid right so this actually incentivizes uh credential issues got it so as we're coming up to mainnet then um

and the launch of the community protocol token just more broadly how are you thinking about the launch with regards to the recent rhetoric in the space of the high FTV low float Dynamic that has been kind of pushed away and now is seesaw all the way towards mem coins which we've now realized are I think I think people probably realized it early but now it's like if you don't realize it then you're out of the game which is that they are also they are more Insider game than any transparent you know VC allocation or raise with vesting so how are you thinking about main net launch is there any timelines you can share any Alpha and then more broadly how you're thinking about uh the community and kind of this entire meta of launching because it's frankly becoming harder as a

Founder to do it right and to please every it's I think you can never please everybody right like it's it's it's I was having this session with uh with some investors of mine um and I think the way we look at this is uh we ultimately want to I think when we look at some of the recent launches some of the big launches what ended up happening is that even though some of the projects have pretty big communities pretty vocal communities um people sort of saw the token launch as the destination uh I'm not saying the founders did but at least you know community members did right like where they get get their airdrops and you know

they they it's a dump they're out right um I think from our perspective this needs to be a long-term thing so we we there will be uh there will be sort of rewards for for Community um but we ultimately want to make sure that it's Community that's that's going to last um it's community that that really believes in what we're doing uh can help us uh scale right so uh we're timing wise we're still figuring it out we we don't have a set date um in terms of main net uh we're targeting sometime between you know end of q1 and beginning Q2 um that's that's sort of where we are and then with devices we've started doing you know popups uh because we you know

our first uh our first uh batch we only manufactured like I think like 15 20 of them um but then we will actually have a second batch of 2,500 uh devices going out um probably towards the end of March uh beginning of April um and you know just to put in perspective worldcoin has around a thousand orps uh spread across the world um and so we're going to launch with around 2,500 devices awesome um any closing thoughts about uh takeaways from Hong Kong for those who couldn't make it um any kind of ideas information thoughts that you've heard around the block that you can share publicly that you think are valuable to those who can make it I think you know there's

obviously you know there there's a lot of excitement for uh for crypto I think you know with with with Trump um with Trump you know uh crypto has become you at least historically you know the biggest risk is is you know sort of Regulation risk with with the US right um I think uh with Trump I I think he's made it a lot friendlier uh um so I think despite sort of some of the market sentiment in terms of oh people are are it's either institutions focusing on BTC or you know it's it's it's sort of degenerate gamblers focusing on Meme coins um I actually think the whole Libra thing is good for the industry

says it's it's it's it's a good cleanse as you said for people to like no hate you know this is this is an insiders game um and then you know I think at some point the institutions will also start moving down so like your retail guys who are looking at oh just beam coins because I want to make 100x in two days uh and then you have your institutions that are only focused on BTC so it's it's almost like a bipolar situation um speaking of yeah speaking a bunch of different people uh I think actually a lot of some of the liquidity and capital will actually move back into into more serious uh Al alt coins and projects that are actually that are actually building things right so so I think I think that's that's that's going

to be super healthy yep agreed Terence thank you for your time thank you so much pleasure