Decentralized Impact: How Blockchain Is Powering a More Equitable Future

Transcript

Okay, thank you guys so much. Um, I'm excited for our next panel, which is decentralized impact, how blockchain is powering a more equitable future. Um, please help me welcome up Stephanie Fuks of the CVA, who will be moderating. Um, and we're looking forward to hearing some very interesting things from your panel. So, please help me welcome her. Thank you very much, Ellie. And I'm thrilled to introduce our wonderful panelists. We have first Marque please from unitf.

Hello according to picture. Yes exactly picture is here right one two three. Then jma green from power letter please. and toas who perform cement and some applause please while so it's wonderful to have you all here and especially our great panel you see we have um the opportunity to hear very different perspectives today and that's why right now from the beginning I think it's important that we understand together you know what do we actually understand when we say equitable equitable future because I think that's can be very subjective and especially

with your backgrounds and I think that's why I would ask you to start maybe Mara we can start with you and then Gemma and then Tobias that you gave us a brief intro of you and your background and then that you tell us a bit more what actually the centralized impact means for you personally because this will shape of course the discussion and also in your work. Great. Um hi, delighted to be here. Uh Marik, I like to say I'm a recovering uh CEO of fintech and crypto now turned advisor and board member. I'm here today to represent UNICEF's initiative which is called Giga and I think this Giga is

very relevant for the topic of today. uh 50% of the schools in the world are still not connected to the internet and at Giga we leverage uh blockchain to create a connectivity credit system to actually finally get the schools connected and so uh to Giga what's actually decentraliz decentralized impact mean is making sure that in a world where AI and uh access to uh the internet becomes very fundamental almost as access like to water or to electricity how can we actually make sure that the unconnected get connected leveraging the traceability and transparency of blockchain. Thank you very much Marik and please Gemma. Uh my name is Gemma. I co-founded Power Ledger

uh with my fellow co-founder John Bulich nine years ago and we set up the company really with the idea of the democratization of energy. um recognizing that energy systems had gone from very centralized from big power stations supplying everyone's electricity to citizens playing a greater role in uh both self-supping their own energy but also providing energy into the grid and the the mechanisms for them to share energy really didn't exist and um the way that they were being kind of compensated for dispatching like excess rooftop solar into the grid was very very blunt instrument with the feed in tariffs So, we developed software for peer-to-peer trading of electricity um really with

the intention of having more dynamic and local price signals to allow people to take greater control of their energy future. And um we also um have got a tracking and tracing feature as well because as there have been more types of energy put into the system and they're priced differently and sort of valued differently from a reputation perspective particularly for companies. they needed a way to track that energy so that they can you know more more legally and validly make claims about being 100% renewable or to also to inform um purchasing decisions and procurement decisions so that they can meet their targets if they're in the middle of it. So um um we also have a marketplace for trading renewable energy

certificates which is in the the US um because we could see that the the market for that was very opaque and cumbersome and quite difficult to transact in as well and we were an Australian company but we moved to Switzerland nearly two years ago. Wonderful. Thank you very much. and um decentralized impact. I think we heard already I mean um two different fields very important and two different approaches to it. Now Tobias you're looking forward to hear more about you and actually your opinion. Yeah first of all thanks for having me. uh I'm sustainability officer for the global solutions services and software portfolio that we have and um having

said that um when we talk about um decentralized impact then it's about bringing together infrastructure so buildings and the grid distributed energy systems distributed energy storage solutions into one. So that means with the energy transition we go into decentralization. Yeah. This is enabling the energy transition because renewable energy is not necessarily available at that point where you need it. So we have no longer the situation there's a producer and a consumer. We are entering an era where we have consumers where you are both you're consuming energy you're pro producing energy and that all to bring together to

the um uh objective to have a resilient grid resilient energy supply um low consumption as possible um transparency on the carbon footprint for our customers. That's more or less when uh you ask about the impact of decentralization that it would mean for seammens. Wonderful. Thank you very much. And I think we are already intrigued and I'm I'm sure you will have a lot of questions. Just that you know I will open up the discussion at one point. So be ready to ask your great questions the persons here but I get to go first because I have the money.

That's how this goes today. Um not surprisingly the first topic I would like to really dive into with you is energy and connectivity. I really think when we talk about blockchain that's a core topic and we already heard we are in the middle of big transformations and um Gemma I think I would like to start with you because just for you to know yesterday Gemma was moderating a panel at um an event of our sustainability uh working group at CVA. The top topic yesterday was um how blockchain is powering the next wave of real world infrastructure and we already heard this right this is already here a

basis and today we dive one step further right um and today how is it powering a more equitable future? How do you see this? you know also following following up on on yesterday how how this is really shaping it in this industry. Well, I think uh you know they are intimately linked connectivity and energy. Obviously you need energy to power connectivity and you can see that obviously with giga with the school um kind of ecosystem but equally with AI you know that whole the ability for AI to grow is predicated on um electricity and like a lot of it and the growth trajectory for AI uh you know would

suggest like you know inordinate amounts of new generation capacity that would need to come online that actually kind of defies um like I think you know gravity in terms of the ability to put that into the market very quickly, but I think we're going to end up with a lot of standalone power systems which um to be able to supply that to get it online faster. And it last night the conversation was looking at um the kind of arc between centralization and decentralization and that I mean we think about that a lot in web 3, but with energy grids were not always interconnected. actually there were discrete little grids in villages and cities and then national grids kind of emerged you know about a hundred years

ago um but then as um we've now moved from centralized power as in generation from coal gas um to a more hybrid system which has a lot of distributed um generation a lot of the network infrastructure had to be upgraded to accommodate that so transformers substations capacitor banks the cost of that um is so ownorous and burdensome that the grid is, you know, breaking from the cost. And so I think we're going to end up with um more micro grids and discrete systems to deal with that because the the kind of tail cost of actually servicing these is too expensive and the approve the times to get approvals is too much for a lot of industry to wait for. So I think we're

going to move from what was a um originally a distributed system that became national grid centralized and now we've got hybrid distributed generation and centralized um within like a centralized grid and I think that the the breaking point will be AI um where they want to get generation online and you can already see that happening in certain states in America where they're just sticking their own diesel generators online to be able to kind of you know um meet the growth in demand that they want to to hit. So I think that's going to be quite interesting. We're we're going to, you know, feel like we're going forward, but in some respects going backwards, but yeah, so I think that's going to be a big part of the energy story. And then the other piece is that there's a bit of a

misnomer in energy where we're talking about energy transition. And it's just completely um fake news uh or you know, more politely put a misnomer because we're actually in a state of energy expansion. And if you look through history where we started off with, you know, coal and gas and nuclear being added into the energy systems historically, they never replaced the existing generation capacity. They just added to it because we're always consuming more energy than ever before. And the idea that we're just like add lots of renewables into the system and we're going to turn off everything else is uh also just complete denial of of reality because we need all those sources of energy. And like what Tobias just said about it being um you need it

to have the energy when um you're actually consuming it. And there's a mismatch between variable renewable energy and when things are consumed. So you need dispatchable energy which is gas fired power. Also you need stable and consistent forms of power to maintain um the supply of the grid. So I I think the discourse around energy is really um it's kind of an over over simplification and treats energy like it's cocoa beans when it's far more complicated and uh than yeah than it actually seems at first glance. Think thank you very much. I think we already set the stage now because we have to be aware the energy market and energy industry is a very special one and I'm very grateful now also for for all the

background information and I would like to draw in now Marque and Tobias your perspective because Marque I think it's very interesting with the Giga project where we see where this is actually built up now from scratch also interesting maybe um to be aware of we have this physical infrastructure This is one market with its own, you know, dynamics and then we have the services building up on it. But now I I'm curious to hear your take on it Marik and also your Tobias then to hear a bit more from your perspective because they have a bit different also experiences in it. Yeah, I think building on what you just mentioned um energy is fundamental to anything and

everything, right? And so actually one of the thing is you can't get connected to the internet if there is no electricity in the place where you need to get connected to the internet. Sounds simple but actually it's it's quite tricky because for example at Giga what we've been working on it's a map which is open source map of where are the schools and where can we see whether they're connected or not. Um and you can check that on Giga Giga Maps. Now the the key with that is that for the places so number one actually it's it's already very difficult to know where the schools are whether you believe that or not but most governments have lists and sometime when they give us the list turns out that some of the schools are mapped to be in this in the ocean doesn't happen.

So we need to to remap all of that which means that we the team has developed actually machine learning systems with like image digital sat satellite images to be able to recognize where schools are. So we've been able to map the schools then we're able to map when the schools are connected or not. But the next frontier is really actually it touches energy and on two levels. One is actually it touches energy because again without electricity you can't connect anything. So that's one but the second part is also like with our growing demand in uh energy in particular for AI then you get into a place where you actually also need to have more energy that's going to be available not only to get internet but actually also to get access to AI and when we touch to AI the concept that we're starting to see

emerge is uh not only about connectivity but is also about compute how do you decentralize compute and how do you not have actually single points of of breakage Um going on you know more linking to like why does decentralization actually matter bringing you know a very concrete example um if you are dependent actually as a as a country or as a as a region on let's say Starlink uh but actually don't control fully the you know the the the contract or what's happening with that then you could actually be at a place where you thought you had internet then you don't have internet and then everything actually breaks down right so being able to actually fully you know map that but also have actually more

decentralization around that we believe is is really fundamental. Um it's some one thing that I think you know we we often think talk about and don't necessarily realize that access to data to know where things are and are not is actually not uh something that is that easy. So I mentioned the map for schools but you know a map that is actually consistent for where everything actually has electricity and which type of electricity we have uh and where it is and which type of cable get to what place those are actually data that that are not often there and so before building any system very often one of our challenge becomes first like making the data readable available to then be able to actually uh further solve the

problem. So yes, so the way we look at that at Giga is actually um the system we're building is to think uh through what we call connectivity credits. And so where the system breaks is that there are aids from governments and there are aids actually to say we want to connect the unconnected but usually it gets stuck and it doesn't flow through actually the last mile and really like the schools that need it most. And it doesn't because the only people who can actually do the last mile are very small internet service providers. For example, in South Africa there is hundred thousands of small internet service providers. It's not like in Switzerland where we have three or four. It's like every mom and pop shop can be an internet service providers and they

don't have the capital or they don't have actually the the the equipment that is needed to go there. So the system we've built is actually uh to say well how can we microloan into that and then once the school get connected have connectivity credits that are emitted that gave a consistent reward to the small internet service provider to be uh to continue wanting to do that. So yes so those are some of the things but again everything links back to energy no matter whether you want to do uh connectivity credit or compute you need energy first so we layer on each other. Thank you very much Marik. I think we have now heard also and I think that's very important and maybe and we tend to forget this here depending on where we are the the perspective on this topic is completely different and I think that's

also a chance now today that that we can hear hey actually we have our perspective here we are in in our environment but in other countries in other regions the discussions are completely different right we are talking about those alternative energies how can we you know build upon them include them in our systems while in other regions we have to build up energy per se and make sure that we can actually provide access to it. So just as a brief preconclusion now in between and now toas yeah let me pick up some statements from uh chairman Mar. So you were talking about um we are the distributed energy systems are at the rise uh the grid is inefficient and

outdated um not capable of the new um let's say requirements from the integration of renewables and you were talking about um data transparency and the lack of data. So to picture that out, a building in the past was a consumer of energy. Now if you put rooftop uh PV on top of it or you have a distributed energy system in place, they become a producer of energy. So now if you have a fleet of buildings in a virtual power plant for instance, they altogether can share um um the produced energy and consume it according to their demand. Then you have now the um transition to um so electrification in the mobility sector with e vehicles. So

if you have your car parked and you don't need it for the next few hours, you have a electrical storage. So uh energy electricity that you can use uh while no one is using the car. So and all this interdependencies that we have now and that are going to increase you only can manage if you have access to the data. If you have let's say the intelligence to understand to simulate to forecast to use digital twins to see what will be the future upcoming scenarios and that is where um digital comes into play to bring that all together but what's enabling uh is that we create energy communities. We break it down from the past with a large power

plant and high voltage and medium voltage line down to a consumer. No, this is an energy consumer. uh community and that can be in the wellestablished western world but even more important that can be in emerging markets where communities can come together and create their own and get more independence and I think if I can build on that actually I I I'm starting to hear about um an idea which is communities can become more independent on an energy base but also financially because you could imagine a place where you have solar panels which enable you actually to do what you need to do during the day but also you temporally mine bitcoins during the night and then you can actually start becoming financially independent and I think that loop that we're starting to see becomes micro

community which can then you know do what they have to do and invest in their own thing and therefore manage their own connectivity and so on and so forth. So those are very powerful uh powerful ideas. I mean what you just said there you know bitcoin is a store of value and you've taken excess electricity which would could be put in a battery but in in that case is turned into a yeah bitcoin Yeah, and we've got a a project in Austria which is doing energy communities with um energy and they are one of the larger um energy suppliers there and they actually developed the energy community concept for their business like a product that people can sign up for and it's households and also businesses and they

did that because they saw being customer focused as a retailer energy supplier was a point of difference to um attract new customers and also retain them. And yeah, they're now seeing that as like a um very big part of their kind of growth strategy and they want to get very very granular and for their for their users to be able to change their energy rates every is it every 15 minutes? Every 15 minutes now. So yeah, when you start get to get to that level of granularity data wise, I mean firstly you need smart meters to do that and to be able to extract that, but then you with that data you can actually be very responsive to what the the grid needs and actually be um a contributor to balancing supply

and demand in a more capital efficient way. Um so rather than just being this passive consumer, not you're not just selling energy but you're also providing grid stabilization services um as well. and in doing so avoid the need to actually make changes to the physical um infrastructure of the grid which is a big part of the cost. Absolutely. I think it's also very interesting to have heard also about this project right what's going on and I think um to take the perspective a bit out again to be a bit broader I think it's what was very crucial what we just heard right is this the development of this community thinking I think that that's really at the core right that's what blockchain actually um yeah started I would say and

it's also interesting to hear it in the context of energy because when we think of energy and energy sector and the infrastructure. I would say we are still in a very solid market and I would um because our topic is a bit broader maybe take a bit a step back but build on this and talk a bit more you know about the importance of infrastructure and who owns the infrastructure because I think it's and again I think now from your backgrounds we have very different takes on this but I just want to be you know raise the awareness again we are still talking about infrastructure. We need infrastructure.

We need electricity. We need access to electricity. Here we are spoiled. We have electricity and we need it faster. In other regions, we don't have it. We build it up. At the same time, we will not be political today. But I just I think when we talk about this, we have to be I just want you know maybe if you want to talk about it or raise it into it in our political developments that we see globally you know in the western part in the eastern part everywhere. I think that has can have an influence as well. Energy is power access is power and I think it would be good to dive into this topic again a bit more and look at it from a bit a broader perspective.

Yeah, happy happy to start. So I think building on what you're saying, I think it's very clear that we are assisting to a fragmentation, right? There's questions of sovereignty in every country. There's question of what do I own and therefore what's my mandate. And I think within that context, therefore there's a fragmentation of of what's happening and and who is taking what role. But talking about energy, I think even in the energy landscape, it's fascinating. So for example, take nuclear. Nuclear has been something that has been driven by very very large projects like five to 10 years whatever and now even that's fragment can we have smaller projects that actually can do things that will be faster to launch and I think we're realizing that because the point that Toby has mentioned earlier but also like today sometime the energy is produced in places where we actually

we don't need it it's not the place where it is and so we're looking at um at other new you know sources of energy for example something I'm also involved in which is natural hydrogen but again this will be in the places where we don't need it. So you have therefore like I think several forces. One is obviously geopolitic which is fragmenting and therefore looking back at like you know more sovereignty and topics like that but two even from an energy perspective like what is it that you actually can do that is smaller and more implementable solar panels I think is a very good example is it the role of states to do big farms or actually does it become actually something that you know as individuals we can have on our home and therefore also have that you know mandate and willingness to want to

be more independent. So I think there are several forces at play here that probably going to converge in that um and that are going to help you know foster even more this community and this decentralization aspect. I think that's a very interesting take on on on this from this perspective maybe to be asked Gemma should I you want you go you you started with the physical infrastructure and I think to observe that you need to really look on the individual stakeholders that you have so you have utility companies core businesses they own energy infrastructure you have um grid operators uh distribution transmission solution providers

they own infrastructure that's core of their business. Then you have large corporates energy or the pro uh provision of energy that's not non-core to their business. They don't want to own that asset. They want to have someone else owning the assets which is us usually an institutional investor. And then you have the private sector um residential and so on. Yeah. then you want to get more autonomous and maybe more resilient and less connected. So they have different interests.

At the end of the day um when you now look on blockchain as an enabling technology very often blockchain uh was disruptive because they could take out an intermediary. Yeah. And that's a bit of the dilemma that we have in this scenario because somehow you need a grid. If you produce energy in particular from renewable which you can only control to a limited extent, you need to have grid connectivity feed into the grid to allow others to take it or um if you have more more more produced than you consume by yourself. So in this intermediary at the moment we cannot take out. He's there. Yeah. And if you

look like in countries like Germany on the actual cost of electricity for the kilowatt hour then the cost for producing electricity is going down. It's getting lower. But what Emma said with the outdated grid and the massive investments that would be needed to put to the grid. This is what drives cost up. uh and uh I think that is a dilemma that we need to work on um to manage this intermediary in a better way or get less dependent from the grid. Yeah, things are tool right the cost perspective and then also the incentives perspective right you heard from Marque she's think about how can we build incentives and you you for from your perspective right yeah I mean we saw

incentives as a missing piece of the jigsaw puzzle and the incentives that are in place which I mean your your comment was oh do we put smallcale renewables or large scale that was all driven through incentives um like contracts for difference and feeding tariff tariffs and cause so many perverse outcomes that you know uh case in point with why Germany has the highest electricity costs in the world and the highest amount of variable renewable energy it's one and the same thing. So I think as to whether you put in small or large, the answer should be what is whatever is the lowest cost. And how do you do that? Well, you need um a market mechanism of some kind. And we the software that we developed was

really about how do you get a market mechanism that encourages the growth of renewable energy near to where it is consumed at times when it's needed. Um and you know I think what we we're having with like the burgeoning infrastructure um because it it wasn't done properly is that that you know people will put up with centralized as long as it makes sense and then they'll just no longer tolerate it anymore when it becomes too burdensome. And I think we're really at that breaking point where um you know networks will say well you know we got to we're going we're going to basically you know smear all these extra costs onto your system. You just have to suck it up and they're going to say well actually no I'm not going to do that. We're going to buy the

grid and we're going to run it as a standalone system. And I think you you're going to see energy communities um that are no longer going to want to wear those costs and we'll start to come up with different means to do that. But I think the first place you'll see it is in business um where they'll put in standalone power systems to manage their own growth trajectory without having to deal with the bureaucracies of government and utilities because they've had enough. But I think also if you look at recently what happened in Spain and Portugal, I think there's going to be call of conscience of actually if you have something that's too centralized and if you have one point of failure then actually the whole thing could go down. And you know what what we observe in Spain is that now there's also more

people. we're still like far from it, but realizing that if you have a roof and you can put a solar panel, which is incentivized by the government, now what you need is a battery. And so I think things like that that unfortunately are very dis, you know, disturbing and actually hurt a lot of things because for like two three days operations of most businesses were completely down, but things like that are probably going to accelerate the transition you're talking about to go because and and it has to it is breaking, right? There's points where it's and it's yeah whether it's from cost perspective or actually even just the physical infrastructure it's it is breaking. Yeah. I mean we actually spoke about that last night on the the panel that the you know the blackouts in Spain and Portugal were really as a result of a failure in

energy policy from these renewable too much renewable energy being pushed into the wrong parts of their grid and it just can't cope with it. And yeah, the countries that have higher penetration of variable renewable energy have a super polarized conversation around energy because on the one hand you've got the advocates of renewable energy that are just saying, you know, just get to 100% renewable. It doesn't matter if we have brownouts or blackouts. You know, the planet's burning. And on the other side, you've got people going, well, actually, I don't want to have that and I don't want um the cost of electricity to be so high that I'm losing my job because that business and enterprise is moving offshore to a lower cost place. And I think we need to have a sober conversation around uh energy policy otherwise you know that that

whole self-supp I'll just stick in a battery the the network's response to that is well we're just going to give you a very high network tariff and and that's actually you know pushing things even further to um the fringe and encouraging people to disconnect and um yeah I think it'll happen slowly and then it will happen fast fast. Exactly. Yeah. I think yeah very slowly and then it will happen very fast. I think if I can take um a step back again I think we have now heard what's actually happening in the energy market that's also valid I think globally in general if we talk about blockchain and the influence of blockchain it's an international discussion right and it's in different countries we have a different level of

discussion and we have different yeah visions about it and different needs and I think that that's a very important point also to keep in mind what I take also from what we've heard so far, right? That it's the challenging part is really to find also a a point of discussion across borders, right? And now I would like actually to open up to the pop if if you have questions at at this point because we still have a few minutes and it would be um amazing to hear a bit from you. Uh Carmen, yes, co-chair of our sustainability group at CVA.

Thank you very much. I'm learning a lot. I my background is healthcare. So I'm learning a lot about energy. Um I think there is this saying that people overestimate what they can achieve on the short term and underestimate on the long term. So my question is what do you think is realistic to achieve with decentralized energy in let's say three to five years which probably is a short term for the industry. And maybe the second question is how will we know we get that critical mass worldwide or the system level to say energy has been decentralized. Your mission has been achieved. It probably won't be in the next three to five years. So there are actually two questions there. Thank you.

Thank you Carmen. Yeah right to the point. I let you take it freely. Um the the hard part of your question is to say to which extent will it be really decentralized energy systems versus larger scaled energy systems based on renewables. The easy part of your question is that with large organizations like international energy agency and others you can already forecast and you see what the grid mix will look like in the upcoming years.

Yeah. So to which extent we will have green electricity. Yeah. So that gives you definitely an indication what you can achieve and large corporates like like us we work with that in order to decarbonize our own operations. We always keep in mind what will be the grid mix this year, next year in which country and then at the end this gives you an indication how that changes where I would say um the uncertainty is and as JMA said it before it's very much driven by incentives so tax relief stimulus programs all that kind of things and this is something that uh politics make the decision on.

Yeah. And this can accelerate extreme and can stop completely. Yeah. And change very fast. And change very fast. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I would say, you know, the difference between, which we kind of touched on, the difference between say Uber is that anyone could just get on the road and start driving Uber. You can't do that with electricity to the to the extent that you operate within the existing infrastructure. Um, so I think that the, you know, what you'll see happening in AI, the the way that those things are set up, the way they're financed, um, the way they operate, um, all of that will be like a kind of test net for how other communities will set

up their own um, energy standalone energy systems. And so I think you'll see that happening in the countries where there's a big growth of AI and then the adoption around these kind of alternative commercial models and business models will be adopted within those countries and then other countries sort of on a tertiary basis. Thank you. And I think now Mar probably also another definition of short-term and long term. I think I was thinking yeah I was thinking because I I'm like where can I be relevant? So I think on your short-term long-term um actually things are mostly whether it's connectivity or whether it's actually uh you know the grid and electricity things are very different country by country.

So at least at Giga the the way we take things is we do pilots because you almost need to crack things by country to then figure out what's the global model and very often it's very tempting to think like globally and you know we'll do this beautiful system and it will work in reality never works. So you know within five years I think having like stronger countries that are leading the charge because like you found a model that really works that then can be models for other that's probably what we'll start seeing at least in the connectivity space and so much of this conversation I'm also learning a lot so much of this conversation is so relevant because incentives is also where connectivity breaks down uh you know how to get there is also very different by country like there's many many different parallels but I think yeah so five years

countries these pilots things that really work and then longer term then you can start emerging with maybe models that are replicated. We have one more question in the back and I get the red light already. So it's a great discussion. I didn't see it so much as a blockchain discussion except for the idea of me locking immutable data on the blockchain. I'm more interested in the idea of what we hear right now is this massive geopolitical battle for energy production which is more about it's not it's not decentralizing it's about competitive advantage right Trump wants Greenland for the thorium China

has more nuclear deposits than North America and the systems and the grids that they're creating are going to be leveraged against each other. They're not sharing infrastructure. They're not sharing grid strategies. It's really moved into a regional sort of conflict. Um, so I'm just a little bit interested in opinions on where this is going because it seems to be going in a in a really uh regional and competitive direction. Yeah. Not in a centralized share the knowledge direction. No, none of that. Yeah. the concern I mean sustainability concerns around energy

were much more of a forefront conversation um by large corporates but you've seen quite a lot of them quietly remove their targets um out of their you know annual reports and their sustainability reports and I mean I wrote an article about that in Forbes and I think someone from Microsoft from the PR department contacted me and said oh could you change this sentence because you know it's not quite explaining what we're doing so you know they they don't like the attention being drawn on that. But the fact of the matter is that um I'd say sustainability is not even secondary or it's tertiary. The main thing now for big companies is just get as much generation on online as quickly as possible. And most governments, you know, with any sense, I would say want

to get a piece of that action and are thinking how do we cut the bureaucracy to actually win the energy war and um win the tech war. I I would see it in the sense of um there are mega trends out there right and um that's digitalization that's urbanization climate change won't go away we are in it so sustainability matters and we should not get too much distracted from a four years legislation period because these overarching mega trends they will last for decades.

And I think this is where at least large corporates take their orientation towards. Yes, you're right. At the moment probably most of them are more silent in their communication, but that does not mean that they continue to walk the path. Yeah. And I maybe building on that I think historically we've seen that like you know when we were building rails for trains there was like this rush and then we've been like there's been gold there. Now it's AI and I think actually I really like AI is going to reshape so many thing because that's the battle that's the frontier and on on how it's done and the mega trend is really good to not get spiralled into what's happening but like longer where where are things going. Well I think uh I feel the nervousness but thank you very much

also for the question. I think that was a beautiful end. Thank you for this this great question. I think I it sums it up and also that we don't forget it's not that we don't always think in these four year periods but a bit longer. Thank you very much to Marma and Tobias. It was wonderful. I learned so much. A big round of applause for this wonderful panel.