#DappCon22 : Day 2 - Real World Assets in DeFi, Siadat, Levi, Derivaux, Vogelsang, Kirejczyk

Transcript

great guys so I I would like to kick off this thing with a short introduction of each of you and also explaining a little bit uh where you're coming from are you where you're going to and then we're gonna talk about the topic real world Assets in defy so please when it's on okay perfect so my name is Sebastian de rivo I work at stecos Financial we help those to do a lot of stuff but our main focus currently is working with Mecca Dao and I was working with Mikado for now two years dealing with real water set we will define those terms I think later and we are on a journey to really bridge

the gap between D5 and invest evenly in trotify or get the trotify yield into defy so that's quite an exciting Journey hey everyone hey hey hey everyone I'm Adam Levy and I used to be co-founder of downstairs CTO and now my co-founder at backed Finance we're actually doing tokenization of rural assets trying to bring you know major Securities such as Tesla Amazon things like that on chain with the like erc20 freely transfable tokens same as usdc but for securities hi my name is Lucas I'm the co-founder and CEO of centrifuge

um my story with real old assets probably began in like 2018 when we tried to figure out okay how do we allow a business to borrow money against assets such as invoices purchase orders stuff Goods to have in stock uh from there we kind of like stumbled into securitizing real world assets on chain and brought like the first real world assets into maker and really are now focusing on kind of like debt right so creating an on-chain debt market for all these assets I work as a CDO for trufi which is unciralized lending on train decentralized as much as the centralized as possible

thank you gentlemen and I would like to know from you each of you maybe or one of you that's it what is it like a real world asset in comparison to a non-real-world asset maybe you start Sebastian yeah sure I can take this one so what we call here what I said it's quite mystical but it's actually quite easy on the blockchain you have native assets like if and is if you Fork because that will happen soon if you is well you have a two if at the end and they are both valuable one might be more valuable than the others obviously here what I said are all the assets that well it's just a representation on the

blockchain and if there is a fork only one will have value uh one example is usdc a usdc is an essay token we can transfer it and do a lot of stuff with it but at the end of the day there is only one dollar behind each usdc and so Circle will have to decide which chain is a good one and the other one will have nothing to do with usdc and uscc will might go to zero maybe not zero because we are in crypto so it's always a bit more fuzzy but you get ready and what I said usually you think about cars you think about real estate you think a lot those kind of stuff but my experience is that most of the time hereward assets are legal contracts

which is not super fancy quite boring except for lawyers obviously but you have a lot of legal work that you usually don't have in crypto where it's more well smart contracts so engineering creators that are more legal So Adam oh but so is that a real war asset can I dive deeper into that that's a good one yeah that's a good question by my definition no it's not a neighborhood because you still will have a sum of the value on the other chain it's it's a native asset that some of its back-ends are are like real world assets so and yeah correct so maybe Adam

you give an example of what you do with pact so is that a real world asset what do you have that it's real world asset for sure you know following Sebastian definition in the end you know you have a token that represents some contractual obligation by a centralized company so reload assets are you know the issued tokens issued by C5 companies like back and in the end you know if let's say there's a fork like a Sebastian example you know we cannot pay on both chains because we only have one underline unlike if you have I don't know noses tokens or whatever so if if the underlying chain Forks then you get both and you can choose or you can play both

ends so it packed so you you you take like a real world asset like a stock and you put it like under your own custody and give on that stock uh token out is it right that if your company's called back the token is backed by the real world asset that's correct a stock of let's say Tesla but the difference is that you buy the Tesla token and you put it under your custody and then you give out the token yeah so I think you know if you want to Peg a token to something we can speak about USD because display this game has already been played we have Seb here so if you want to pack a token to USD you have two ways to do it right there's the syntactic version and that you have for example maker doing very successfully or you have the backed

version that has been taken let's say by Circle and usdc and we're trying to create a similar and with stocks you can play the same game right you have you have for example uh you want to create a an erc20 a token that is following Tesla and and now you can either do it synthetically and we we've seen a very bad example by mirror and the other example by synthetics and you can have the backed version that is way way more complicated on the regulatory side but it's more stable in a way and that is basically like a SFI company buying the underlying putting in custody and commit pledging it to the Token in a way

without going into all the technical boring slower things I mean the the Tactical stuff is probably interesting to most of you but also the Practical stuff is interesting because when you can sit with f takes or etoro which are very popular they're all synthetics I mean they don't really buy the the stock behind it and and keep it there binance has I think both models um but what what many people realized in the last uh yeah when you had the board of yard coins some they bought the synthetic ones or the derivative and they tried to claim then the nft which didn't work and then they realized okay I don't really have the coin I just have something like a derivative like a contract on that and I think that's also a good example for for the non-text and the non-lawyers what

the effect in the end is and look as you you gave all the couple of examples not from the mainly the D5 world but you said something about builds and other stuff so maybe you can give some examples from The Real World outside of T5 and then we go into the D5 topic I mean if you look at the if you look at the um the economy or the kind of like the world of Finance today right like you have um different asset classes you have Loosely equities in debt for example equities are shares in companies where like um I guess Tesla shares or Google Shares Apple shares right kind of everything

and that's really like your own part of a company that has some sort of business and you hope that the value of the equity goes up someone will want to buy it debt is um you you have an IOU you have maybe there's something backing it so like you've secured an unsecured debt uh we focus on secure debt so that means for example you have a uh you have a business that's about to build a new Factory there they bought the land they now need a construction loan they're going to go and say Here's my title to the property that I own I would like to borrow 10 million dollars against this title uh if by default you get the factory and the building and the land with it of course and so that's that's why it's called a secured loan

um so there's there's some kind of like like asset actually not real world answers in general an asset backing backing this debt and so that's what we focus on is actually bringing um these assets on chain and it's actually the if you look at kind of like the market cap of these different asset classes like secured secured lending is probably by far the largest asset class in the world it's like right real estate every person in the US that owns a house it's uh it's a secured a secured debt actually uh you think of trade Finance right Goods being shipped around the world uh they're stuck in a container someone is financing the the month that they spend from port to port right because well as as a business I need access to that money to be able to start

producing the next container of goods so what do I do I go to a bank and I actually get money for that container of goods until they arrive at the Walmart where Walmart then pays me 30 days later for with an invoice right and I get kind of that Finance so these are kind of like the this is the debt assets that we focus on and it's actually the interesting thing about these and the challenge in the traditional market and now going a bit into D5 is that unlike Tesla stock Tesla has a market cap of I don't even know what massive right and it's if you own one Tesla share and I own montessor share we own exactly the same thing it's very different with if you're building a factory and someone else is building a factory and they're in different places of the world

different sizes built manufacturing different Goods right so these are by definition not very fungible so the market is much more compartmentalized in the US you have like some asset classes that are very commoditizes in U.S real estate where you have such a huge market like you'll probably be able to find a buyer for that house no matter what but if you're trying to build a power plant and you're trying to sell that later like you'll probably spend a couple of months trying to find a buyer right because there's maybe a few countries in the world that could buy it a few a few cities that's right and so but what we're doing is actually trying to securitize these very diverse assets and actually bundle them and then create pools that you can now invest into real estate what is effectively like a real

estate fund right a real estate pool of assets for example or a trade Finance pool of assets that you can then own a token in that is becomes fungible becomes usable has utility and defy and kind of like gets a bit closer to what what bact is doing with like taking a very fungible asset already and bringing it on Shane thing thanks for this explanation I mean for those of you who are not really much into it I mean the main point I think about the D5 is that you're taking out the intermediary you don't need a bank you don't need a payment service provider you don't need anyone who's regulated to who's doing who's providing that services to really connect peer-to-peer you connect really the the one who needs maybe the funds and the one who's giving the funds without having some intermediary in between but

can you a little bit explain how it works would work for me for example I would have a I don't know property and I want to give that as a like a collateral and get on that alone so how would it work a new example would I tokenize my collateral and then you would take that token on the blockchain or how is my my company getting on the blockchain yeah so like you mentioned the intermediaries and actually it's mind-blowing just how many there are there are transfer agents collateral agents custodians uh investment Banks Underwriters law firms uh right like placement agents they're all their business Model A lot of times oh like we'll just take 10 10 basis points here 0.1 percent or point five

percent or 0.2 percent if you then actually sum this all up um say you're trying to actually create an in a real estate fund or a trade Finance fund uh it's easily one to two percent a year just in managing this portfolio that you're paying to these traffic intermediaries that over the last hundred years kind of like wedged themselves into this financial system that we have today where like they're all benefiting from taking that spread of course uh so they want to make sure they they stay around and make sure that you have all your process in place you do your KBC your AML your like in some in some places they're literally just updating a ledger of who owns shares in your company right so like things like that where like to a large part right like what we what we believe D5 can do

is it can replace a lot of these intermediaries um and that's that's where I believe like real world assets and D5 have this huge chance is actually now if you manage to reduce some of these intermediaries you can start to bring to lower the cost of capital for the borrowers right while not actually like giving less return to the investors right so like in the end you want to bring the borrower and the lender as close as possible together so that you don't overpay for your for your for your loan but also that you get a good return um now of course it's legal work all this structuring this stuff is not simple so I don't think at least today you can go and just take um your house and put it in into a centrifuge pool

um like you could with maybe your board ape or your crypto Punk we're not quite there yet but uh basically what we do is we work with fintechs who I look at like if I think of defy as the back end of the of the new Financial system then maybe like you could think of fintechs as the front end right they interact with the users which here are the borrowers so we allow basically fintechs to take their origination business cut out a whole lot of like traditional intermediaries and then actually instead of getting a bank to fund this uh they use D5 to go to maker to Ava to in like individual investors are just like to own exposure to real estate because they have already too much variable crypto as

an example right explanation mark I'm looking over to you you didn't talk that much well yeah explain a little bit about the coin I was talking about tokenizing coin true fire two coin you have experience with that explain a little bit to the audience how that jumps into like the real world asset and D5 absolutely so I'm one one 100 will look at here the traditional Finance is over complex inefficient it's expensive everybody takes a cut it's slow it's difficult to get into if you're a new player in the market you need to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars it's the worst boys club in the world right it's like all boys club in the world so so it definitely begs for

the disruption and also it's one of the hardest because it's so heavy regulated and I can see you know the future when we can get rid of many of those so if you try to do in U.S get rid of some of those transferations and all the stuff it's really really difficult we actually work with real life assets before with maker Division and with you know try that ourselves but so so I believe eventually Regulators will be able to tell how you don't need a transfer agent if it's you know non-custodialities and that right but reality today is that we're in this trying to find different angles and trophy angle is different than centrifuge we focus on unsecure

uncolateralized lending which is begging up the huge part of financial world right which is like a liquidity providers funds fund managers and so on so forth right and one of the great things that we already do today other than you know just a lot of them just are ready and go in the in the in the D5 manner and other needs a little bit more onboarding and and need a little bit time to get there but the value we bring today is You Can Be A lender to this Secret boys club that usually a normal person would not be able to get into and get those you know revenues from great funds like Alameda or uh you know liquidity

providing and those kind of things I mean yeah I mean I'm I'm I mean I understand the D5 concept and I'm I'm more like a progressive lawyer I would say we don't need the intermediaries but as I can see like for example a Dao or a decentralized exchange they say they have protocols and they have an automated Market maker and stuff like that but the reality if you look at it there's always a market maker like a really someone who's in the background who's providing liquidity and is doing that so I think um I think you're absolutely right the law does not uh stop you from from having defy and that's good because I'm I'm absolutely Pro Innovation but if you really look at it you see that they're still market

makers and there's still those who really like participate there are still those who hold the the governance token and the coins like in majority or more than ten percent and you can is it really decentralized or is there someone who has like the is there someone there a stakeholder so how how do you see that Sebastian would you say that we are right now in a D5 World somewhere where it's all really decentralized also looking at you in the EQ path of make adults and you you're working for Mega down or you're with maker though like is it a Dao is it is a really truly decentralized how does it work in the real world yeah yeah there is plenty of challenges to be fully decentralized because we have not we are still super early that's for sure and doing everything is super

complicated and we work for more than a year and Luca was working even before we make it up so it was a long process because you start well we are decentralized we don't exist okay I'll we signed a piece of paper at the end look I wanted someone to sign and so it was quite quite complicated so we have to find some legal ways like often doncties in nice places like Cayman BVI stuff like that uh and you are right that it needs a lot of work and it's not not just a smart contract buying some token on uniswap that's the end game but we are not there yet most of the token that I said are

not listed on unisa because those are securities uh one of the read what I said that he's working quite well currently is a rap Bitcoin uh you can buy it almost any everywhere so that's quite easy but when you are making something more complicated well you need a lot of work and you need you have a lot of problems and that we you need to solve first I think we are all working here to solve this problem so it's kind of messy right now because we have to find Solutions we have to do it some experiments to find some ways regulation isn't helping because there is no Clarity whatsoever and so it's process but the end game is really it will be decentralized and you

will be able to buy any of those token we are discussing today on uni swap at some point I don't know all but that's what we are targeting and I think we were going to that point we're going to reach that point at some time but actually just thinking of how to get to UNI Swap and how to get the the yeah the the crypto asset it all starts to Fiat and in the end it goes back to Fiat and this is actually something very important some for those who really want to start with it and also if you want to get something out like on your bank account again this is also very tricky um would you say that a an accepted stable coin would be something which would help like some silicon which would be not just accepted in a d firewall but

also in the real world and is that something yeah that's the same in the end game or what I consider that's the end game is you can use die or USC to buy a coffee anywhere and that's the target but it will take a few decades I hope only one but we will see uh to get at this point so currently just like at Mikado we have a lot of capital to invest in and we are investing a lot if what we call off chain so there is no not even a single token just because well we have to build all the Technologies from scratch it's a lot of work to get something on chain and uh I would add to that that I think we're

going the intermediate type let's say for the next decade or so is we're gonna have those two worlds throughing on the blockchain together right that's gonna be some you know security assets that are considered Securities real or assets is going to have significant restrictions and it's Gonna Keep developing in a way we can make we maybe will be able or not trade them on the uni swap but only between people who are kind of allowed to right and then we can go into technicalities of amm if that's possible or not but in general that will be able to transfer As Long As I Am My address is white listed right and there will be the second category of things that's going to be you know

native assets and free to free to trade there's going to be all kinds of Shades in between but I think you know like we should today I start thinking about how to clearly distinguish those things and let the real world assets flood in into ethereum and related blockchains and layer twos because it is intermediate step that we need to go through and only when Regulators will start C or U.S regulator really because it's whatever happens in us later happens everywhere else uh see okay this is legit this is good stuff we're actually know very well what's going on here which they already do but it needs to get more comfortable with that than

and then we can actually start removing some of the restrictions or try to moving those in between all kinds of shades of things into you know left or right or ideally into right so actually that's very interesting that you're saying it because you know in fact we're not taking this approach our tokens are freely transfable from the get-go we're not doing like white listing token wise listing in the tokens and once you have the token you can transfer it to anyone again following the circle usdc model and it's true that the US and you know regulation is not support it's unclear let's say on the head for now but but with respect like we backed is a Swiss company and in Switzerland the

regulation is actually very clear and this is allowed and yeah maybe to make my general counselor happy then we're not selling to us persons not redeeming to us person not not speaking in English but not necessary but and just to be clear it's great and I would like see more and more of that but my feeling is that you know the bigger real world assets get the more there is regulatory pressure to actually to Whitely think white listing doesn't necessarily need to be widely per se it might be blacklisting blacklisting is something else from White yeah yeah well per point right but in a way there is saying this person has committed a crime

and should not yes you know but that's gonna that's gonna really affect you know all the infrastructure like taxes right if I have you know something in the credit people that is blacklisted and so on so forth right so so yeah white listed or blacklisted or whatever we call it you know controlled by the external governance bodies yeah for sure and blacklisting is something that you know you you now had the the offic thing with tornado location thing like that I don't think this is going away so it's a good point actually wanted to talk about that right now I mean you you saw the gentleman sitting outside giving the free Alex t-shirts out I mean for those who didn't don't know about the case Alexander one of the protocol developers of tornado cash is now in

Amsterdam in prison for a couple of weeks already without really a case because some North Korean uh um yeah criminals they use tornado cash for money laundering and then all fact U.S authorities that put their web page yeah the technology webpage on the sanctioned list which was a first of a Kind thing because normally put persons or people on the sanctioned list and now they put a web page on the uh not just the web page they put like a contract an address yeah this is something that is very even worse it's like it's very normal yeah so and uh and instead of like going behind the people who did the crime like the North Koreans they trying to go to the source which is wrong and the the Amsterdam authorities that jump on the

train and they took the poor Alexa who's living with his wife in Amsterdam and put him in prison to find prison without any case for any support of money laundering which is not really clear what he actually did and the judge doesn't really understand defy nor does it understand what tornado cash is no doesn't understand how tornado cash did get funded in the beginning yeah so all of that is not really clear and this is something which is I want to raise like this awareness here this is a lack of understanding like as we now talk and describe your cases so people understand what you're doing what difa is and what real world assets are it's very important to not just you guys the whole public to understand what we how really

this works and how these notes are get together so what do you think about this case I mean I as a lawyer think they're wrong so the U.S authorities are wrong the Amsterdam authorities are wrong it's even a Pity to see that in Europe like a court and police in Europe is helping holding someone in custody without a proper case uh just to find the information to find the knowledge and to keep this poor guy into uh into a prison so what do you think about that case so I think there are two things right one it's really outrageous the way they approach this right because he's not arrested he's not in jail he's just put on hold indefinitely when they're creating a case right this is so undemocratic so

he's in custody he's and he's like he's being called but he's not arrested there are no charges there needs to be charges to be arrested right you need to be sentenced to go to jail so she just being called lost his freedom and there's no charges right and it might be up to I believe 100 days but can be extended and well not you're the lawyer you tell us but I think it's outrageous right but that that's one thing and that that I hope is obvious to everyone in this room but the second thing is tornado cash was a tool that I believe majority of the volume was money money laundering right not majority by the transaction wise but um value-wise and and I think those things will not

stand and we let's say my personal views are secondary to my pragmatic understanding of how U.S government works and the way it works is you know if they think it's a tool for money laundering they're gonna find a way to close it right and some of you might be old enough and remember there was like alcohol 220 percent like this DVD burning who remembers alcohol 120 percent okay whoever copied a DVD here so so so young so so those were used to copy CDs right you could buy a game and if you copy it with using your windows or machine that would fail that the copy would not work on the

other computer because it was copyright protected but if you use alcohol 120 you can copy that make as many copies of your own and use it and it was made illegal the tool was made illegal by US Government out of the dmca Act Right Digital Millennium Copyright Act 20 years ago so so in the same time there was a tool on Linux called DD I believe this duplicate that didn't happen to be widely used for uh for for breaking copyright copyright loads so in the in so in a sense it is some extent reasonable again this is not my personal belief but like pragmatic understanding of how the US government

operates is you know they want to close this money laundering machine right and and I think we should build privacy solutions that doesn't make it so easy to launder money and we should you know there is no other choice right we can find the US government but that's going to be long battle and it's going to be difficult and the outcome is uncertain so so so that's my really that's my really call to you know responsible be responsible because we want to build that space and the reality is there is not as much Freedom as we wish there were and the way to push those freedom is keep pushing boundaries

but not crossing the boundaries yeah I think you're right Marek so um I want to give the word to the audience are there questions to a panelists something yeah there's a gentleman thank you uh hello thank you for the panel very very interesting so I'm from a legal background too and I guess most of us here are pro decentralization but on the other hand I hear about U.S jurisdiction Switzerland Netherlands maybe Germany so the question is what does it take for the industry to start decentralizing regulation where are we here because as long as we

will have centralized jurisdictions what can we do with would this fertilization be really decentralized I don't know who can best answer uh if I underscore understand correctly you are speaking well there is a regulatory framework for each country and everything is always different and we have to spend a lot of cash because every time we need a lawyer for the good country to understand what is happening and I think you're right having something worldwide would be better I'm not sure it would work or it would be just a U.S regulation and a U.S laws which I'm not a big fan of but I think we can play

just a competitive game for the legal framework and for instance I know that we uh used a Cayman foundation so in Cayman Islands because they are fighting to get the best regulation there also the best legal framework and it's a country where you can well there is a wonderful tool which is called the phonation nothing is the same than in the US fronts or anywhere and there are some competitive landscape even for the legal side of things and we can pick the best place to build or stuff so I guess Nation will compete to be the best players in crypto if they want to take the business and curiously Cayman is taking a lot of crypto business because

it's just a great place to build the legal stuff for crypto so I guess it will be about competition that having some so kind of centralized if you want for sure that just having something fully decentralized that is working for worldwide I don't know if you ever yeah I want to Echo you I like I I think here like in a way free market of jurisdictions is good for us it's not good for us to have something that is you know controlled in by one entity or it's actually I think it defeats the purpose I think it's very good that you know countries can can compete on companies by introducing novel regulation otherwise the incentives by big players are just to freeze

regulation in their incentives but we can also see that the regulations following the players like in Europe the markets and crypto assets regulations which is coming in effect the beginning of next year we'll give like a framework for the whole European economic area we'll see the DLT pilot regime coming next year in March jumping in and the US is lacking behind because of the presidency date before of course but there's also something going to come and you can see that the law is really now following the Innovation before it was different before the law was giving the rules and the the yeah the product had to follow but now I can see that it's Vice verse so it was first the product first the crypto assets then there was the review coming from the European

European Securities Market Authority and the European Bank Authority as man Eva and then we had the law which came in um and I think this is the the going forward and maybe this this helps you there will be never one law for all the world for the global uh Market but there will be some jurisdictions I mean I'm fine with Cam but the point is when it comes to regulation you cannot make regulatory Arbitrage by choosing the jurisdiction because if you want to Market your product let's say in Germany or somewhere else then you have to comply with the rules that's that's a problem and the same you have with the anti-money laundering stuff you have the F ATF which is not a law but they're giving the rules and you have to comply with it so I'm coming one your direction Mark to say that we have to comply with

it in the end of the day somehow and that's how it works but you want to say something but no I mean also it seems and I'm not a lawyer here but I can clearly see the pattern when something happens in U.S and then it kind of flows everywhere else in the world or vast majority of your addictions right and we see that with you know money laundering and over and over again now there is know your customer business requirement in U.S that is entering Europe now so the bank need to know what is the customer is doing and if they're doing something else they need to call and ask with so this is really re-regulation when I heard first about it and now it's entering Europe right so in a way this Arbitrage between your jurisdictions it's very it's a short game you know

it's a you know you can grow as much as as possible you but then you have to have the business model that is sustainable right so that's why I say we should push the boundaries grow as fast as possible so that we make a precedence of the regulatory camps and we say hey we have all those people using legit products with the good intentions no money laundering here or it is but you know it's a very small fraction of what we do right and then regulatory is forced to to make it reason reasonable regulation if we keep being small and we don't grow fast enough or we cross the boundaries like I believe happened with tornado cash then you know the regulator gonna

that we're risking that the regulator is going to come and say we're closing the business you know or making some ridiculous regulations that makes it impractical to to run such a business and look at Finance that's best case Finance they grew so fast in five years and now they're trying to comply with all the laws and getting everyone licenses but that's the truth in the end of the day so you can start start good with a jurisdiction where it's easy to follow the coming in but from a strategic perspective you have to have a plan have a plan and how to do it in the future but I think binance went great and you know for a longest time you could withdraw any amounts of money and one day they just say okay now there is you need to go through the kyc they I think

they give some reasonable amount of time was it a week or two which you know if you're doing money laundering you're getting too much anyway right so you know and I think by now is going to be you know soon going to be leader in being compliant so do we have one more question from the audience maybe something which is not related to law um maybe here in the front [Music] for like um contracts like contracts and um I mean so the first question is like is this the case like is like does it become easier to tokenize real-world assets and then the second question is

like I've got this idea in mind like for example my uncle wants to buy an Old Timer but he only has like half of the money so he tokenizes like 50 of this old-timer like like how how expensive is this is is this actually possible and I'm I mean I'm not talking about a company of you guys um tokenizing 10 ultimates but really like private person tokenizing something that he could touch or she and yeah how far are we from a future where this is actually possible can I just start and then you gentlemen continue because this old-timer example go on hardstocks.com hardstock like the heart and the stock they just took nice and Alzheimer with the Liechtenstein entity

so they put the old timer they listen to that entity and they tokenized the shares of that company and you become the shareholder of that company and the indirect owner of that Old Timer you can buy a share from 16 Euro 25 and you get a piece of that old timer so it's now a Mercedes bull Wing which is there you can check it out on webpage it's going live now a project by ihopt and another project Timeless Investments here in in Germany in Berlin they do it without the schnick Schnack going to Liechtenstein and putting up a company they did it directly so you can sneakers get sneakers watches and other stuff and buy a fraction of that and it's already working so it's not the future it's right now happening to a question yeah it is what's

expensive the first time setting that thing up in Liechtenstein and also maybe doing it in Germany with Timeless Investments but then after some time it works and the benefit of that maybe this is the point the benefits of that is that you have 24 7 trading possibility you do not have the intermediaries you don't have trading Windows you can do the secondary market trading which is very important I think this is the the true uh positive side of of the blockchain that you have a secondary market for not dependent but peer-to-peer and you can do that and it already works so check both out Timeless Investments and hard stocks I know other companies questions really like when well I don't know maybe my uncle could go there and say hi so yeah for now as early as I said you

know this process is expensive and it has a lot of lawyers around it so otherwise I can make a living but I mean the internet was built for universities to talk to each other exactly and now you have it on your watch right so it's a couple of decades as Sebastian said at the beginning you know as we scale with uh you know with this type of Business and Regulation becomes clear and costs are going down this will come to it okay but we're very far from from this you need to think of you know where is the big pain points and why is it needed now okay so the big point is not your whatever a relative tokenizing their their stuff the big point in pain points

if you think about like the major Financial system you know the New York Stock Exchange and other exchange they they they close at four and they don't even open on Sunday okay if you you know coming coming from crypto and knowing binance and other places it's ridiculous okay and the fact that that the the financial the trade fire is so inefficient is amazing and really if he just starts looking inside it's amazing how inefficient it is and to put on top of that think about the amount of people around the world that are just barred from access to this market so we're talking about under bank but if you think about the people that cannot

access like Western Securities these are billions okay southeast Asia Latin America we're not talking about very poor people even it's just something it's a closed system and I think this is where it is is the major major pain point and there I think we'll see the Breakthrough and when it comes to you tokenizing your shoes it will take time thank you Adam this was some nice closing words thank you all for listening you can get to the panelists afterwards but we need to cut it off now thank you for listening and please approach the gentleman uh afterwards one to one and thank you all thank you [Applause]