DAPPCON 2025: Apps Taking Self-Custody Mainstream and Global

Transcript

Hi everyone. Uh thanks for joining us. Um I'm Antonio. I will moderate this panel that has one big topic and it's uh self-custody. Uh before entering to the panel, I think the goal about this panel is set in another words is explaining how uh we can have our grandmother using self-custody. Okay, that's for me what it it means going globally in stream. But again before entering the topic 20 seconds introduction from uh each of us uh I will start I'm Antonio co-founder at fluid key and fluid key is a self custodian wallet with embedded privacy and state-of-the-art UX. So I'm Steven

co-ound at Rebind. We are building a mobile fa mobile first DeFi app. So very consumer grade stuff that hopefully everyone here in the room can share with their neighbors and family. I'm Joan, co-founder at Open Ford, an open- source wallet as a service solution. Hey, hey, my name is Hanes, a gradient and I'm a builder at Zeal, which is turning safes into a revolute like experience. Um, I'm Jo, co-founder and CEO of Picnic. We are building D5 for non cryptonatives, a super focus in Brazil right now and recently launched noises pay there, which is cool. Talk about it. Amazing. Thank you. So how I want to structure uh this uh this panel

I think that the best way to approach a a huge argument like it is a self custody is maybe through a little bit of a of a story. Okay. There are a lot of uh topics when I was thinking about what we can discuss about I had a lot of question with on aspect completely different one to each other. Okay. So I want everyone each of us to imagine that we have in front of us uh a user an imaginary users user. We will call him Bob the Boomer and as the name might suggest you is not a crypto friendly user at all. Okay. So I want to start with the first question and uh the first question you need to answer him that he has never used crypto at all is why self custody. I don't know who want to pick this first.

I can start. Um I think um for western countries it's a very debated topic uh because usually when you look at developed countries it's the ability to basically bank people but I think for western countries the biggest argument it's the ability not to get the bank. Um and so for me if I were to you know pitch like this normie like this boomer would be that whenever you want to have like a controversial opinion uh in our society that might be like not on the current think of you know like your group of friends your pro like the the services that you use etc etc they could

always kind of like eject you from the system and so self- custody gives you the opportunity to you know have access to the same features that you have in like your day-to-day life without the risk of you know being um ejected from the from the community. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe maybe I can play a bit of the devil's advocate here. Um so first of all I think it's a very hard question to answer and I think there's also not the answer. So I think what you just said is absolutely right. I think it totally depends on on the audience if Bob the Boomer is a let's say a German guy or a Brazilian guy. It matters a lot to on how you pitch probably. Um and I think

the question is um really hitting the mark because probably for the German guy. Yeah. For the western people as you just said um we can probably question if the need of having like this ideological part of self custody full control ownership blah blah blah is really solving a pain and um that's why I personally prefer to rather take the approach of uh pitching the value maximization because I mean the the one part is the ideological part about it but the other part is of is of the disintermediation of everything, right?

So you can push more value to the boundaries of the entire stack which is at the end the end user. So when it comes to this, I mean I would always pitch it via um via this and not um maybe not even using the word self custody at this point. Makes sense. Hans or you want to add something different angles to see this answer this question? Bob Bob sounds like someone who came not from the global south and someone who probably has access to dollars. For the global south, I would say access to digital dollars is a strong value proposition. Great point.

From Germany or the US or some country in the north, you probably have to either appeal to the libertarian freedom crowd with something like permission free finance, but that's probably minority of the population. And so for the larger part of the population, value optimization, so no custodians or middleman means you get to keep more of your money practically higher yield on your deposits. And Jo, you come from Brazil, so you might have like more insight on what now just an just Yeah, but even in Brazil, I think it is not as easy of a cell there. uh it's not not the most stable country in the world but there's

no big crisis going on so you you see some like organic demand of people wanting to hedge political risk country risk and that's the path I usually take when I'm on boarding France is man start with like 2% of your net worth put in there if something weird happens with Brazil you have some money that's uncorrelated with that so I really like that kind of argument Um, I tried to do a lot of the FTX thing. So, it's like, oh, look at what happened on FTX. It could happen elsewhere. That's surprisingly like not as efficient as I expect it would be.

Uh, in a certain sense, uh, keeping money on a with a counterparty, you're taking uh additional layer of risk. But on the other hand, the UX is so good and they take care of so many things for you. Like if you lose like if your house catches on fire, you probably recover your funds. Even if you lose your phone and everything, you can KYC. So they have that really uh mature experience. They drawing from fintech. Um so it can be a tough argument there. And now I'm really focused on cost. So that's the the way I'm really nailing down is like it's cheaper and that message is much stronger I would say. Makes sense. Yeah.

No, maybe I have one one thought that just came up. I think it's also um a kind of regulatory arbitrage, right? So I mean from from our perspective as a business of course but also for user perspective. I think what what also works great at least what I learned uh as someone offering an easy DeFi product is if you can pitch it as a way to access something you can't access in the let's say non-cryptocustodial world like I don't know collateralizing your assets to borrow something right this I mean I I can't go to my Deutsche Bank and they say like here this is my ETF portfolio just give me something right um doesn't work. Um so I think um

besides what um John that's just said I think that's that's also a great approach. Okay, makes sense. And that's was like a question I did on purpose because uh was very open and you can see like we had literally like a lot of reason why and not all applies to everyone. Like someone said, if I have access to US dollars, maybe the stable coin is not the number one, but I might want something where I can borrow easier without needing to provide uh my DNA to the bank uh to be able know to borrow and and accept some some resource. No, that makes that resonate.

But there are things uh that we can uh try to convince as much as possible. Bob that probably has at at this time downloaded a wallet and tried it out. But there are still missing pieces to facilitate this bankto-wallet transfer. U because again we are competing not uh with uh you know abstract concept. We are competing with banks. People are used to go to the bank uh uh access uh their bank account being able to move fund easily with clicking a button and probably receiving an an SMS with a confirmation number and whatsoever. No. Um so according to you

if you want to look this bank to wallet transfer what is a piece of infrastructure that's that's completely missing uh and that Bob will look for or will benefit a lot into moving into uh into like self custody. I mean yeah if you want to start again uh yeah sure um so I think like when you refer to banks to me I I wouldn't look like like the traditional banks but I would probably directly look at what Revolute Wise etc doing because look those to me are like they have the perfect experience which is like you don't need to go to the office you just scan your passport etc etc um I think the logic to make like the bank to

account or to make the on boarding it's uh it's defining It's basically defined for what you want to accomplish with like this revolute or this crypto account that you want to have. So if the user they actually want to spend money, it means that they want to have access to a credit card. That means that whatever um you know happy path you design in your app needs to completely nail the experience to get the credit cards up. If uh in the other end what you're actually aiming for is for people to optimize on the returns that they can have on like their idle money then you need to optimize for that happy path as right so I think like there's I mean there's just so much we

you can do with like a small team and like just small money so initially whatever the you know the the user application the user interface aims to do you should aim at that happy path and to get there as up. I think like any um you know burden when it comes to oh yeah you actually need to send whatever money you already have to this eban or you already um you know you need to save like this seat phrase or whatever friction we can think of it's already something that you're fighting against uh the you know the the new banks etc.

So I would I would frame it into what are the what is the user trying to accomplish and then from there just positioning as like the fastest cheapest way to get there. Makes sense. Yeah. I would love to hear your thoughts. I have a startup idea that will make someone a lot of money one day. So I'll end with that. That's a cliffhanger. But first off um money needs to be able to flow easily on and off because in order to make your onchain wallet a par a parity account with your real world financial account needs to be able to flow back and forth. It's not like a casino where you have to buy chips at a 4% cost. It should just flow easily back and forth.

Um and so in zil now you can do that. We work with unblock and with monerium and so you can move money at the interbank rate between dollars and euros and pounds. Um so you don't have to pay anything to move your money into your wallet or off and usually with faster payment cycle in the UK and instant it goes very very quickly. Um so that's a kind of a a table stakes thing. Now if you look at how fintex are doing it, cutting edge fintex, the the revolute, our alma m and the big guys over in the US, um you not only do you easily or cheaply or quickly and and for free move the money, but you also do it without moving a lot of details back and forth.

So if you're say for example creating a uh an account with Robin Hood in the US, you say I want to move money from my bank account and it opens up via Plaid and it sends over the account instructions to your bank who then c up the transaction. You don't have to copy like details back and forth. So it's a it's much smoother experience just click a button and then the money moves with a couple of okays along the way. The equivalent in in Europe would be like open banking. We can do these same things here as well and and Revloop does this, right? That doesn't exist yet for on on offramping. So if someone builds a solution that uses open banking or plaid where you say move money from a bank account, click a button, it deep links into your into your banking app and

pulls the funds of courseing a bunch of times. That would make it not only um fast and and free or very cheap, but also extremely convenient for the user to not have to like copy details back and forth. that would be a missing piece of infrastructure today that exists in web two finance but not yet in web3 finance. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's uh that's absolutely key. I had the the exact same thing in mind. I mean personally I I see the point of the question right and we are all working in tech. Yeah.

Very product technologically focused. But I think like feature parity something like Hans just mentioned is is probably one thing but on the other hand normally for disruption to happen you also need like other things coming into play right so I mean on the feature parity side maybe I think you guys probably know better than me because we are not so into the banking uh um road yeah but rather into brokerage like investment part um but can you actually do like pulled payments let let anyone charge your your crypto wallet already like with a saper mandate how you do it in Europe is that is that

working actually already or what what about insurance I mean you know it's also a big thing like everyone has an insured bank account can can you can you do that already I mean whoever I you both know probably I guess that in Europe uh monerium I think is super advanced they are regulated EMI And I think the you can make uh euro payments to any third party you want and you can receive euro payments directly to your virtual account. When you receive you get euros minted and I think that's a in a way like the first seed of but can I can I also let someone charge? I mean I see uh I see a monium guy over there so maybe

he can answer but uh you can't do that yet. No you can't do that right. I mean and that's so standard I mean for so many things. So and that's why I mean feature parity is probably like these open banking rights to transfer fast pulling payments insurance um I think there are probably even a few more that I mean only like third party bank transfers recently started being easily feasible but that I think is the next level for for bank transfers pull mandates but yeah the thing I'm still stuck on in Brazil right now is uh and I think that's already like a great app compared to two years ago. You can on an offramp rise like at no cost. So 100

rise in is 100 real stable coins in your wallet. Uh but you can only do it from yourself to yourself. You cannot receive uh money from third parties and you cannot pay third parties. So that's something we have been pushing quite a bit to get ready. uh also with like we have some like if you get utility bills we have a system built just to pay those sort of things and we cannot support that yet. Uh so the more cryptonative users we have they're usually asking for features to allow them not to move money offchain to like I can do everything through picnic and now with noises pay it's one building block on top of that

but we need to to get to feature parity. Yeah. And even I mean I would say probably even if you get there I mean the bank account feels like the most stickiest product in life, right? I mean you were born as a child, your parents want to like save some money for you. You get it from the local bank and then you almost never leave it again. I mean not true fully but at least for the majority of the society probably. Um so yeah I mean how do we want to convert the people? I think uh of course a banking crisis or so would be nice like in I mean there would yeah let's be honest right so I mean uh no one co was great for crypto volumes yeah yeah I

mean that's I mean that's probably what you need right imagine I mean I can remember when the people in Greece went to their ATMs right and they couldn't get any money so something like that is probably a good a good boost push yeah yeah you need I mean at the end it's always it's not the technology ology changing the human behavior right it's human behavior that has to change and finds a technology so and I think this is some sometimes something we are not thinking about when talking about safe custody we always think we can push it to the world and everybody loves it uh I'll if I if I can I'll argue like the future parity thing is not enough um I don't see like people moving to crypto because it has the same future parity like I don't really care if I can you

know invoice my account with like utilities and stuff. Like a very clear example for me is like I managed to on board people through Zil because of the cash back. Like in Europe you don't have cash back. Yeah. So anything that gives you cash back it's a unique selling point. Uh in America probably this wouldn't care because they probably have like some other issues. So maybe in America like the real issue is that it's very hard to get a mortgage or that you need to go and talk to like 10 bank officers and like negotiate and maybe it's something that it's bound to be you know disrupted with crypto because you have a community that is willing to crowdsource like a mortgage for you with like already pretty fine yield right I don't know how it would look like but to

me like a peter fire like a future party is not enough and you need to have like the unique selling point to on board the users I mean you probably guys have like more data of like why people use your product. But uh that that to me is what makes sense. Interesting. We talk a lot just comment on that. We we we're all very happy about you know solving with pass keys and all these things but these are just like hygiene stuff. The ability to transfer money to your account without paying fees. We're like yay we used to pay 4% fund ramping. Now we don't pay anything. But if you're like back trans like yeah has been around for a while you know free transfers of course. So hygiene we so we made our bathroom not smell like Uh now the hygiene factors are solved. But for

people to step into our our hotel, we then need to have killer value propositions, right? Not just say that it doesn't stink. Um, so that's the challenge follows now. It's like, okay, how do we do killer value proposition? Cash back, high yields. Yeah. Interesting. Because for example, for me, uh, there it's also a cultural problem of the crypto world where it started to be an alternative to the bank. So there is this, uh, uh, no the first culture where no banks are another thing. We want you don't want to touch banks and instead it's this world has grow a lot the crypto space but it's a point where it's it can never be one or the other. there should be like an easy way to go from one to the other almost

uh not for the user quite doesn't have to see that that I'm doing a wire transfer but my money is on chain maybe he knows but he doesn't feel it and then I totally agree if I have uh two same services in any in any aspect not just crypto that offer me the same thing and I'm already in one I don't have an incentive to go to the other there should be something strong that can be either uh bank run that uh scares people I mean it needs to be 10x Right. It's like a bit better. Switching costs are insanely high and Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. The way we're thinking about it, I think we I'm super bullish with 10x thing, which is a tax arbitrage going on in Brazil right now. So, we got a new tax. Yeah, you mentioned it yesterday.

3.5% gift on all USD purchases. Okay. So, I think that's really compelling. That's a 10x thing that people come over just because of that, right? Good point. So we're getting pull from like people that just want to travel. They use want to use the product because it's 4% cheaper than wise. Yeah. After all and once you on board those people because of that it's really nice to offer the option to do bank transfers to pay in euros to pay in dollars or so that's the I don't think we'll be able to bring users because of that but it helps to keep users to have parity right makes sense. So uh just to again to follow the story now we have just convinced Bob to I have a wallet and maybe onramp something on on this wallet now and

start maybe to see what's how a loan works or maybe he's just earning yield that in his bank account is not giving him through stable coins and that's another another option. It's pretty bad. Like he moved a good amount of money there and uh now he has his best friend Frank Frank Fiat and uh he he ramps him like too he said use this is super cool. Okay, you just move your money and don't worry I will give you like $20 worth of ETH so you can start uh to do that. The next day, Bob comes to us and is yell at us because now Frank knows that he has $20,000 in bank account and he can see everything and it says but with bank this doesn't happen. Okay, I want to

revert back to a system where protect my privacy and this is a topic of course I'm biased this uh for how we we are we we tackle that in to know and I think it's another aspect to consider when it goes to self-custody and maybe just a little bit uh from my side to add I've always think that uh we as a human we like to know post on social media uh like know to say a lot about uh how we are but none of us has ever published his uh bank account statement uh publicly on a social media because it's something that we in the nature we have want to keep it private and make sense

no we don't want to of course uh be forced to show everything no and privacy is something that has always been touched but not so touched in in the crypto space be like see someone will figure it out in the future but the future has come and someone has not figured it out yet know so what are your takes around uh privacy and uh what can be done also to boost self custody I mean yeah that's an easy answer I think you answered it already right so it's it's kind of obvious and common sense that there needs to be um some sense of privacy but I'm I mean I'm not a privacy expert so I would probably bounce the question back to you what I would be curious about is like is there also something like let's say

customizable privacy because of course you have the you have the fact that you don't want to have it publicly but maybe you want to share it to this entity or this entity like getting back to the banking uh uh part I think another feature missing is overdrafts right um I'm don't know if there's anything out there that offers that sharing data um personal data that shows that you're a reliable let's say user customer on chain might allow for overdrafts at one point.

So I mean what what's the state there? Yeah. So um what we found so far that's I think we think the best approach is to use this technology called st addresses. Basically we have been always thought in this space that one user is one address. And it works. It's a simple a simple way. It's like if back in the 80s if I had to connect with you, I was going to phone call you and ask your IP address. Okay. And that might kind of make sense. There were just few user on the internet were just starting. That was the only way to connect. No, now if I ask you your IP address, you have no idea what it is. You give me your email. Okay. So there's an obstruction and under the hood there's this uh this is managed by

the the network. I think the same way here with st addresses you don't have anymore one address. you have an infinite amount of addresses. Basically, what we do is that we have an ENS that resolve these addresses every time there's a new one returned. In the end, the assets doesn't stay on one stays on all these addresses. And but you control from a centralized UI that shows you, okay, I have $1,000. Then I might have 50, 100, 200. This is not perfect privacy, but it's really a way to hide your history. Every time you receive a payment goes in a U address and don't disclosure all your funds that you have.

So and this is also something that I know for example Ethereum Foundation is pushing towards that that it was something that Vidalik proposed this idea of ST addresses because it's u again it's something that uh um it's easy to understand it's easy to disclose if it's needed for example I can have one address with one NFT and I disclose that address but all the other addresses are not connected even if I look on chain to that okay there is also like then advanced techniques where I can share what is called a viewing key to for example a tax authority that can see all the addresses they have without being able to spend the funds in those addresses but rotating that key I can just select selectively show some of my

addresses and not all of the others and so on and so forth so this is I think it's an interesting approach without breaking traceability without shielding funds in one place but still giving a good sense of uh of privacy I don't know if you want to add more around the I think a promising solution is like a compliant tornado cache permutation with proof of inclusion or proof of exclusion. There are several versions out there. I think that seems like a it's it's in production on mainet now with privacy pools. Um and there are other players out there that are building something similar. So that seems like something that's pretty nearby. Again, it's one of these hygiene factors that you don't really tell uh Bob, hey, come use crypto because your

friend will not see your transaction. Like, yeah, of course, exactly. Sorry, our bathroom still has a hint of that smell we try to get rid of, but we'll get rid of that smell too soon. Uh, and then, yeah, there are solutions happening for that. I'm looking forward to having more of that problem. Uh, yeah. So I think now that the main problem I'm concerned that is getting people to use it. Um and privacy has not been like a big user push. It's not something that we're getting because no one because no one understands the tech. Maybe Bob doesn't know how blockchain.

Venmo said, "Hey, we're going to show your transaction history to everyone." I'm like, "Okay, let's do it." That's so Maybe it's not a maybe it's not a smell in the bathroom. maybe more like a a fragrance. So if with this this adventure Bob had and you have to tell him one super cool thing that is about to be available. One of the of the ones that might makes the difference for him on boarding. Maybe we don't have now but think about what you do in your in your companies and products like what is about to come or that has just been released or or something that you already have and you think might be super appealing to him.

What would you tell him? That's a very good question. I mean, I'm very excited about everything that the onchain world offers that a retail person in Treadfi doesn't get. Okay. Yeah. So like I mean the most appealing use cases are not yet there but what I would love seeing for example is being the ability to easily invest in private companies right so um I mean private for longer is uh kind of the motto right now and no one has a chance to um invest in

in companies like uh Space X and so I think that that's a compelling very compelling part and The other part is um the the borrowing against your portfolio, right? I mean that's something accessible to institutionals. It's accessible maybe for high netw worth uh private banking customers. But as I said earlier, I mean I can't do it that easily. And um this composible part of the let's say tokenized finance world on chain I think that's that's the beauty of it. Interesting.

Um I'll say one of the most interesting compelling use case that we're seeing is that payments and ident and identity are becoming one for good and for worse. Um and so if you take that idea and you extend it in like you know four four five years time you can actually see people not only earning revenue from traditional jobs but actually earning revenue for things that they might do on on the internet. And so if this happens this basically means that any uh action that you can do on internet can be somehow monetized and be completely uh

paid embedded into a website. Um, and so I'm very excited on the idea that you could do things like microtransactions. You could actually tip people if you want of like things that you see in on the internet and they don't necess and you don't necessarily need to add the friction of like using a credit card to do that. Uh, because you could have like multiple wallets or multiple accounts with like small amounts of money that allow you to do that whatever environment you are interacting in. Makes sense. Uh RWA is real world assets. I mean we stable coins were first out. Now we have treasuries of various shapes and forms.

Equities are coming. Um I think I think that's very exciting. It's also a huge market out there that is web two where like Bob and his friends are very used to that those markets right u so to have very easy and straightforward access to those markets uh in in permission free pools I think is a compelling value proposition. You already have some that are available on those chains. you can buy tokenized S&P 500 on noises chain for example um so I think that's that's very exciting and that's also moving not just large cap equities um or or bonds treasuries but also moving into to smaller cap like companies that are are issuing tokens that are bound to equity so you have some recent products that

are moving in that direction as well um I think as those markets become vibrant onchain like 247 markets uh with the traditional finance industry as Well, maybe moving into that we'll be I think we'll see magnets and movements that we haven't even imagined yet. Nice. And how about picnic? Uh everything that was said here I think are pretty much the reasons why I'm building the space. So I think composability is amazing being like a global ledger that connects to many different financial systems. You can put RWAS. That's also amazing. But personally excited about the 4% arbitrage. Yeah. Interesting. I love

that. I can imagine. That's very straight. We should have a tech in Europe too. That's great. Um, go on. I think I would like to ask like a few questions to the audience. Answer by just raising your hands. Okay. Um uh easy one to start. Uh who has a self-custodian wallet here? Okay, perfect. Amazing. Who has um swap tokens on a centralized exchange doesn't count of course, but uh on a any decentralized exchange was done that at least once.

Okay. Bridge through chains. Perfect. With Reb there's no bridging anymore. Just saying. Yeah, you're right. That's a good point. Um, take uh uh lending, so earning yield on stable coins. Yeah. Okay. Borrowing against asset you have and hence get uh less and less. Okay. So, this or maybe pay through a debit card or credit card directly connected to your uh wallet. Okay. Nice. Yeah. Um, now this is if we have to bring back Bob the Zangry for the privacy issue he had

before and he want to tell you one thing he can do now on the real world right from his self custodian wallet that uh again can be like something that it touches on a daily basis. Okay. among these I just shared or others cames to your mind what will be one that you will share again the third percent might might be one that maybe will focus on specific kind of people so uh can be something we have already said we can skip it or if it's something new I would say it's probably an easy one I would probably pitch the the higher yield on uh his native currency so I mean that's that's a really good one honestly yeah 5 to 10% on uh US dollar stable coins I

mean that's Pretty amazing. Yeah, that's uh that's a real one. Do you want to add something else? Uh hey Bob, did you know that Dapcon has a campaign that allows you to if you go to zeal.appdcon, you can get a 40 signup bonus. If you sign up to Zeal using that link, that's zeal.appdcon. That's a valid one. And yes, it's 40. It's a nice bonus once you spend 50 with your card. And it allows you to recharge your card automatically from your AVA or your Sky deposits or even light stick ETH. So you can earn while you spend all in one go. How about that Bob? You should try it now because supplies last.

Limit to the first 100 people only. That's what I would say to Bob. Very good. z.app.com. Well, now the last point I want to tackle in this panel. Uh we have still a little bit more than five minutes. um is around one other aspect because Frank that got on boarded and put us a little bit of money broke his phone the same day. Okay. So now we asking Bob, hey Bob, where is the support team of Ethereum that I need to recover my account? Okay. And how do you explain him that his money is lost forever if he doesn't have a cup or what are the solution that can still be self-custody

but I can support in this process where people are used to if I have a problem I maybe waste one day on the phone but I can recover access to my money that are in the bank. I mean isn't recovery solved? Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I that's what I thought. Yeah. So it's a it's an old problem I would say. I mean thanks to safe um there's of course the chance to to recover. I mean um passes keys make it even easier right you can sync it with a cloud or so I mean not sure if you guys do you guys allow adding guardians like other other friends wallets or so in order to recover I think that's something you can also do we we are um thinking about doing that

as well um so I mean even if you lose your phone I can just speak for rebind but it's not an issue you can always recover yeah so don't worry Bob um just getting your phone uh installed is into is into the the we got you. Don't worry. Uh so you just log into the same account whether Google or Apple depending on what kind of phone you had. Uh and then the pass key will allow you to recover to a new device. Um and if you don't want to trust the cloud, you can also just install the wallet on two phones and keep an extra phone somewhere else or in your computer and keep your computer somewhere else.

So you have different ways that you can can stay safe. But probably didn't install it on three devices yesterday. So you would have to trust Apple or Google cloud. Amazing because yeah I see that when you touch these aspects I know there are uh um you know things that we are we give for granted in a web to work that are not and we cannot expect everyone to understanding how the base layer works. It needs to be a little bit abstracted and get no use for example you know guards or do you have any other service that you can think of that he might use in a way that uh not only protect is recovery but also the fact that uh it cannot be fully

scanned by someone uh by handing over his uh account. What do you think? Yeah, I mean it really depends on like the setup of the private key of like the specific application. Like the most basic uh setups I've seen is just you have a private key that it's stored on the keychain of like the specific devices like the the ecosystem and then it's pretty straightforward. Uh I've seen more complex setups where you shard the private key in different parts and then you also like store those on like different services. Some are open source, other are closed source. Guardians as well although I've not seen a lot of people using that part. Um I think like there's upcoming technology that is becoming very interesting as well with Zika emails uh which you like stop relying on third party clients to

send um to recover the the the wallet. Um it's all about like uh making it as smooth as possible. But uh I think like the current setup it's already really really good for 99% of the people. Makes sense. And Joe like how do you solve this problem? I really like to think about this problem and benchmark it against uh fintex. I think revolute not that familiar with the we benchmark a lot against new bank which is 100 million user fintech in Brazil. uh very slick UX everything just works but like if you get robbed in the streets it has some sort of protection against that

sort of thing. So just not losing your device and losing access to your credentials but recovering via KYC I think those features at some point will make sense to to have as well. Um nice and customer support is something that uh for the kinds of products we are building that needs to be baked in in the product and strong capability as well. Yeah 100%. We have still a few minutes. I don't know if there are uh questions from the audience specifically to a part of self custody or more just a curiosity that we didn't deep dive.

Yeah, there's one there. Maybe like I I this is for all of you. So maybe a quick one from all of you like what do you think what value prop specifically in your products are you building next to pill people onto self custody? Um what do you think is just going to drive the next wave of adoption? Uh and I'd like to hear from each of you um inside your very products. What are you building as the kind of vampire attack? Yeah.

You wouldn't start from the from the% credit card. I love it. Okay. Yeah. I think that's like having such a strong pressure point. I think that's amazing. Yes. But the product needs to evolve, right? That that will not last forever. We probably have a few months of ragar, but it will close. And for that, I think it's built for specific use cases. Now, we're super focused in payments. Uh so even without a ragar it's still quite cheaper than wise and you have a good product just on a cost basis and integrating with different banking rails. So like Brazilian freelancers can receive in dollars and spending on nosis pay and think nailing specific use cases

where you have some sort of edge. The the edge you're looking for is cost but getting the use case perfect that I think is the way to go. Nice. Um well the most next step is the referral program. So at Revolute that was 50% of our mix will be hopefully good here as well. In our case we do embedded wallets. So nailing the on boarding for each one of like the different devices and ecosystems where the applications or games live. It's very key. So things like Pasis on mobile but then you have like Epic game login on your Xbox. It's uh very important.

So and for us I mean we are more on the let's say wealth growth investment part um it's it's anything related to the programmability part of onchain fun. So when it comes to automations, right, DCA, automated rebalancing of your portfolio, setting up your own portfolio structure that adapts automatically. Um, that's a huge part and of course this in combination with hopefully more and I'm with honest there uh more real real world assets on chain. I think that's a very very powerful combination and uh for us we started from privacy and we think that's plays a big role but

as we said before privacy is something that people give for granted so we focus more on the user experience in general like being a revolute kind of user experience and making sure then with thanks with privacy user never gets piss off because someone sees what I've made on chain okay so um just to wrap up Maybe um one one more question. We have we have actually more time for question. Okay, we can we have a little bit more of time for questions. Great. Go ahead. Question more question.

From what I understood for the questions about the future you guys uh I think um the the big assumption is that the relationship the financial relationship will be will be very similar to the one that we have today where the user has an app the user makes a decisions and everything happens like that. Um what about artificial intelligence? How are you guys looking into it? not on the back or development side but on the use user side. How do you see that happening in the future especially with your who wants to go first? Because it's I think it's a

really good question. It's a very good question. Um and it's also very hard one to to answer. Um I mean we are thinking about it a lot. um especially when it comes to leveraging let's say the user behavior in order to provide maybe a predictive let's say predictive financial management behavior. Um but um it feels from our standpoint it it feels not close enough um to work right now on this. Um but I absolutely

see a point where um there might not even be a classic app UI but uh just someone I'm talking to. Um, and then again what I said earlier, the programmatic part of of everything, allowing to um better manage my my wealth even with with an emotional partner as well, let's say. Yep. I think uh I mean I don't see much difference from like what it is today for what it could be like AI in the user behavioral like namely today I think you can already get like robot advisors and things like that in your apps and so the only thing that you are actually worried about is the permissions that they may

have uh to act on your behalf and so at least from our end the thing that we care most about is like how you define like these policies or permissions and how you enact them like how you basically validate that they did the right thing um and that that right thing is actually shown on chain and in your UI like anything else in the financial space I still don't think it will defer that much from a robot advisor I think over a long enough time frame uh AI will make us irrelevant either because we're all dead or because we won't need the money anymore because we're living in a world of abundance so AI will make us irrelevant over a long enough time frame over a shorter time frame though um there's an interesting

angle for these kind of hybrid CFI D5 open solutions where you have some kind of civil protection through the the KYC angle so you know that there's a human there uh and at the same time have the serverinity of a self-custodial wallet where you can somehow okay I'm a human I want to control my information for example there could be some angle there it's not something that we're working on right now but thinking about like road maps and potential overlaps that's an interesting direction. Someone will probably build something there. I think Reese is probably Eric is probably building something on that right with the self sovereign. Yeah, I spent some time thinking about that and it's a tough one. Like chat chat interfaces, I think they're interesting, but I'm still not

convinced that that will go all the way and how to mix that with UIs. I think we'll need to run a lot of experiments in. I think the big I mean the big question I ended up with that started letting me doubt a bit was like would you trust I mean it's your finances would you trust an agent to manage your financial stuff I mean you trust humans to manage that I mean yeah it's like there is a rational argumentation about it right and uh the other one is more let's say mental Um, not sure. I think you just said exactly what I was thinking about. It's like uh

but personally I would not trust. Maybe it's a cultural problem. I don't know. But personally I something that I I feel wouldn't be confident into into that honestly. But uh you trust a human do you trust a human to do it for you though? I trust myself. Right. Right. So question is like trusting external LM or whatever model or trusting external human. both have some trust assumptions that are different from trusting yourself and that's why there's a rational relational view and I think you're asking the absolute right question and probably have the right view if I understood you correctly but not sure if the 8 billion out there see it the same way Bob yeah so yeah uh thanks for uh thinking part

thanks uh to for uh helping us figuring out all these different angles that we can see the self custody And now let's transform a lot of Bob out there into