The Daily Gwei Drive Thru #4 with Anthony Sassano, Eric Conner and David Hoffman | Memecoins & NFTs

Transcript

hello everyone and welcome to another episode of The Daily grade drive through I'm your host Anthony sassano and I'm here today with Eric Connor and special guest David Hoffman to discuss all things ethereum hey guys what's going on yo hey you know it's funny David me and you like I don't know 12 hours ago my time did a did a live stream and now we're with Eric so we already talked a lot about a lot of stuff but I think I was thinking about topics during the week to discuss with Eric and I was like you know what Eric's been tweeting a lot about these meme coins and I like I've got no idea what's going on in that world because I'm just not paying attention to it so Eric I want you to start us off like why are you so bullish on Meme coins all of a sudden

all right let me I guess I'll start from some stage one here so to be fair like when D5 mining kind of started I feel like I was one of the obviously not the first but I feel like I was early in that space when people were like what is it like what is D5 farming blah blah blah these coins we don't need these coins blah blah now I'm not saying meme coins are gonna be the next defy I maybe slightly would say that Meme points might be the next narrative um but yeah I guess long story short um I started just seeing people talking about this obviously the markets have been kind of dead we've been at you know between obviously we just had a huge dump but let's just say we've been between 1500 and 1800 for what multiple months now

um I get a little bored I like to explore just in my nature um and I saw people just talking about this stuff so actually what originally got me into it where a lot of people were talking about unibot and I was like yeah I faded it for a while I dove in it's actually pretty cool now don't go go put your like your cold wall at unibot because there's questions around like Key Management they launched like a cloud Key Management all this stuff but they have these like I don't know people are just launching pairs people are calling it like on chain summer on chain trading right um and these meme coins have started and they kind of started with Harry Potter Obama Sonic 10 Inu which actually has been sitting out there for multiple

years at like zero and I guess whales whoever picked it up it's this old like meme right have you guys seen like the knockoff backpack and like yeah yeah um and it's pumped to 200 million dollars and I you know I just got the things I got to thinking okay Doge shib like people just accept these as multi-billion dollar coins um why can't these memes pop right so I I don't know I just dove in I this is not Financial advice I I'm a degenerate like I'll I'm not gonna lie I've kind of made it so I can afford to lose the money if I need to so I'll put that out there

um but I hopped in a few um you know the big ones now which I are I'm not in I'm not in Harry Potter Obama Sonic to be completely clear um everybody started making derivatives off of these so they did like their ticker is Bitcoin like written out right and their meme is like we're gonna flip Bitcoin bitcoin's a meme where I mean we're gonna put Bitcoin um so then everyone started just doing derivatives on that so the next big one is like xrp which is like Harry Potter I'm addicted to the memes though go to these Twitter handles I'm not even saying buy it just go look at the memes they're so like left of curved ridiculous and then yeah I know I've

been tweeting about um uh Nick Cage while Luigi Elmo but like you know I've donated I've done in these communities I'm trying to like learn lessons right I think one of the lessons I've learned is they're getting an insane amount of activity users community and like some of them the one I'm in like is not charging attacks but somebody's even charging like five percent trading taxes and people are like okay with it um so there are some tweets out there the other day I think David you're involved in the thread but like can we apply some of this knowledge to like public goods or like protocol funding and stuff and I think every meta that pops up every like New Meme new narrative that comes around I think from like an ethereum protocol perspective we

can like learn things right like why are people pushing the meme coins to 200 million and Doge and ship's case like billions of dollars so I mean I've been dabbling but there's some stuff to learn here I mean I think I've been deeper than both of you but I'm sure you guys have seen it you know popping on Twitter and stuff curiously get your thoughts but like really what I've you know this is just something I'm dabbling in at some point I'm sure but I mean I don't think they're gonna fade away I really do kind of see this as a new crypto meta um but like can we learn things from this I guess that's the real thing I'm trying to take away from it myself mm-hmm I don't think we should really ever doubt the power of memes in this industry like like Anthony said we have

Doge we have or no Eric said we have Doge we have shib so we know that memes work and memes come in all shorts and shapes and spec uh shapes and spectrums you know and like we have we have a meme it's called ultrasound money right and that's a different kind of Meme and so it's a memes of all types and flavors and I think like as crypto develops it's like Civilization side of things like there's very just like robust like stable cornerstones of crypto that are high trafficked that are just totally safe that is going to be like the civilization of crypto the weird Frontier of crypto has gotten even further and this is just like the furthest weirdest Frontier of the corner of crypto there's always going to be there it's always going to be there's

always going to be this weird section of crypto that just like right like rears its head every now and then mm-hmm I I think on Eric's point about like the public good stuff and uh potentially using it for public goods finding this is actually something that I was thinking about it's kind of creating these meme coins and then generating like a lot of hype around it right a lot of marketing around it and being pretty explicit that it's a meme coin but then also just having like all the trading fees going to the protocol Guild like automatically there is no intermediary it's just like hey the inbuilt smart contract trading fee just automatically redirects the the fees to the protocol Guild and never touches the Creator's wallet or anything like that um and that alone you know if you really

think about it could actually end up funding public goods with more money than years worth of bitcoin grants rounds even though I love Bitcoin grants I think the memetic kind of side of things is just so powerful and if you applied it to the Harry Potter coin whatever I don't even know how much trading um fees that they kind of accrued but it would probably be in the many millions at this stage and that would quickly dwarf everything that has gone to the the particle kill the particle Guild has been able to attract a a sizable chunk at this point I think it's 10 15 million million or something like that but could you imagine that getting just dwarfed within like a few weeks during a bull market where everyone's just crazy trading these things and it's that concept of turning like that degeneracy into regeneracy

where essentially people are going to do this anyway so let's redirect that energy into something that actually benefits the ecosystem and we do it with the eat Burn Right like everything every um time a transaction happens on the network eth gets burned and that is I guess a roundabout way of doing it where essentially obviously no one is getting the eighth that's burned it's just burned but it kind of makes the value of eighth more resilience we've seen that play out during the bear Market how ethos held up much better against Bitcoin than it did last bear Market which I think is really the the story to tell there when it comes to that stuff uh and that's that's the thing that interests me most and I think people miss that because they just see the meme coins and they're just like oh this is a

scam blah blah I'm like yeah okay I mean some of them are probably a lot of them are scams right A lot of them are just get rich quick schemes and everything like that but I think if you be explicit about what it is it's just a meme coin it's just something you can gamble on it's literally the same as going to the casino and playing the slot machine right maybe you pick the one that actually pays out uh maybe you picked the one that doesn't pay out and it's just the way the game goes but I think yeah people's main concern or like my main concern with it usually is when it's marketed as something that it isn't and a lot of these things do do that because they know that once one narrative runs out they have to come up with another one but if it's really just

like a a mean coin game or a gambling kind of casino game I don't consider anything to to be wrong with it to be honest so there's a there's a project that did the whole text uh tax on transaction fees the the whole cult down thing is that and so like it's a whole like you just we are a a [ __ ] coin Army we're gonna meme this thing it's gonna be a meme everyone's gonna talk about cult and all the transaction volume is going to put five percent tax into the treasury but I do wonder if just like the actual commitment to public goods is like an anti-shelling point for degeneracy in crypto as in like oh they're about public goods well that's not bullish Harry Potter Obama coin

right I mean the one thing I've realized is I don't know if a lot of the nft space moved over to these or what it is but people so there's a couple tools that you can like plug the contract in like token sniffer and so there's like three checkpoints so if anybody's even thinking about doing this first there's three main checkpoints it's is the lp burned so like if if like the dev provides the original RP you got to make sure it's burned or they can rug pull the whole thing does the contract have an owner um that's a big one because it has an owner like they can rug pull it um and then is there a tax on it now a lot of these have like two three four five percent tax I I prefer to if I'm looking at them zero percent because I

I'm over time I don't think the tax thing is very sustainable but what I've realized I'm just like being in those communities is no one really looks at the contracts or knows how to look at the contracts right now so what if somehow you started a narrative of hey you know what if it was cool to like hide the one percent tax in there to go to public goods you know like you don't know like it could that could be a thing people aren't even looking at it and from that the biggest lesson I've learned is if people are making money they don't care what the tax trading fees anything is if they're making money they don't care Anthony you and I have talked about this a lot in the past about layer one and fees right everybody in a bear Market talks about everybody

in a bull market doesn't care because they're making a ton of money right um now of course we have layer twos and one of the most interesting things I've seen actually are some of these are branching out to Layer Two so they're starting to bridge over because you know people most people are only doing like 50 100 trays like the uh Nick Cage album one there are like arbitrum um bass I I think like polygon but that's cool right like we wanted this to happen we wanted layer twos to be a playground for stuff like this like we you can't do that this isn't we don't we're gonna bring in users this way right whether we like it or not whether we think it's stupid or not most people are going to come in to silly stuff like

memes like nfts in reality they're not they didn't really come in for D5 they're going to come in for silly stuff and we want to be able to onboard that on layer too so I do think that's a cool thing to see I when I first saw these trading on layer one I'm like ah this just doesn't make sense to me how is that even sustainable like if we hit a bull market and people were trying to buy 50 meme coins for I think uni swap trade fees at 80 bucks yesterday or whatever everything dumped day and a half ago um maybe this will be like some kind of push for Layer Two I thought it was going to be um nfts to be completely honest with you but we haven't seen that migration of nfts for whatever reason yet yeah I think the nft thing is always

funny because I think what nfts did is that they front ran like years worth of price Discovery because they just went so crazy in 2021 and now like Noel wants to touch them because it's all just the same money right now right it's not new money coming in that hasn't been burned by nfts or hasn't already played with them whereas these meme coin things a lot of people haven't played with them before like I haven't played with them yet right and I mean you know I've I'm in this industry every day uh but a lot of people yeah like you Eric that have just maybe bored with the usual stuff going on on the market side of things are thinking well I'm gonna go and just DJ him into these kind of meme coins and as you said like l2s are starting to unlock more of these people because

there's kind of like the long tail of people who don't want to you know bet with more than like 50 on one of these meme coins because obviously like uh you know there's a high chance you're gonna lose money on it because a lot of them do just end up rugging or going to zero or whatever so obviously if you have to spend uh extra money on gas fees stuff it just kind of uh makes your bankroll go go lower and lower and then it just doesn't become become worth it and yeah it's funny that like the base started off with this kind of meme coin before they were even live with bold token right and what ended up happening was exactly what you said the lp was was rugged basically and then the whole thing about a year Club employee yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that was that

one yeah that was a different one that was a different one yeah yeah the Bold one apparently was some guy called milky on Twitter or something I saw someone kind of track that down I'm talking about okay yeah yeah yeah yeah no that was bold there but yeah generally that's the kind of stuff you want to look out for but it's it's also interesting with the um with the l2s and and and how D5 plays into it like D5 is the thing that enables the all of this to happen right like without defy you wouldn't be able to trade these things like this like there were me like things that I guess look like meme coins in the past on centralized exchanges that you could trade but the problem is is that the centralized exchanges are always going to be way slower to list anything right

they don't not going to list things instantly whereas if you create a coin and you add liquidity to it you have created a market for it instantly yourself right you can do it within the same block even really so when you think about it like that that's why I think the meme coins really only work on on chain because they're just like they're just kind of like the infinite Casino where someone spins up a new one you're placing a bet on it nine times out of ten it goes nowhere or 9.9 times out of 10 it goes nowhere but you're betting on that that 0.1 time where it's essentially like oh wow I actually made like 100x on this so you put 50 bucks in you make 100x um but uh that's the game right that's the game you play but as I said I'm fine

with that I'm not flying with projects that's how meme coins saying that they're more than that right and trying to be more than that and that's actually bearish for the coin because now you have fundamentals and for a meme coin fundamentals are not bullish because you rely on a narrative if if there's a reality then and then everyone kind of sees the reality like okay this is bearish now it's like what would happen with cardano cardano was a meme coin until they did smart contracts now people are like taking it more more seriously where they're like oh smart contracts were delivered and Cardona didn't actually get much adoption or any adoption really and then Ada kind of fell pretty pretty hard right so I think yeah fundamentals is not bullish for meme coins but maybe I don't know Eric if you've got a different view on that

but that's kind of my view I mean I 100 agree with you I do like in a way ethereum's hit with that if I'm being completely honest like Bitcoin is literally just a main point and he delivers and has narratives and not that it gets hit for that obviously we're doing just fine but I think Bitcoin doesn't create a stupid multiple right yeah right and Bitcoin has just decided hey we're never gonna like promise deliver on anything and you know it's worked out for them but I mean one of the funny things I've thought about too in this is like all this stuff is kind of just repackaging the same thing like in a way nfts were just meme coins with like art attached right and in a way D5 was D5 was not meme coins or nfts like obviously there's a lot more building

there but there were also I mean like 95 of D5 Protocols are down like 90 plus percent right so in a way like all this stuff is oddly just repackaged I agree with you Anthony like gambling casinos right but you know I think we we had a tweet thread back and forth that we should talk about this on the pond and I kind of started with like I'm hyper bullish eat because it is the world's Casino like this is where people come to gamble speculate everything and I think early on ethereum commuter did it didn't Embrace that I'm starting to see it more and more but as an eth holder purely Staker um that's the most bullish narrative I could pretty much ever think of that we

are the platform for where people come and speculate and do this stuff yeah and I think the main criticism of that has been that because of the way block space bidding Works what ends up happening is that the speculity of use cases price out everything else at layer one right and this is where layer twos come in and start fixing these things because obviously you can't build a payments Network on layer one right you can't build like peer-to-peer payments and micro payments or whatever on layer one um you can build it on Layer Two but there's still kind of some some issues there and honestly I think that layer two fees are going to be you know very cheap after 4844 goes live but it's still the same kind of thing where it's like a bidding war basically and it depends on the speculative stuff so then

you start building other things even at higher layers like layer threes for example where you can just have like a payments layer three and then you can do everything that you wanted on on that layer and that you don't have to kind of like share the block space so to speak and I know there's other ways to deal with this with kind of having different um different kind of fee markets for for different kind of types of transactions that's exactly what erp4844 is but the problem becomes is that like this speculative stuff is always going to out price everything else just simply by virtue of if you stand to make like a thousand dollars from a transaction especially if you're like an Mev bot you're going to spend 999 on a fee because like if you're doing that a thousand times a day you're making some

some good profits like from an automated bot and that's exactly what happens with Mev that's why uh the prices uh sorry the gas fees end up kind of spiking very high is because if there's money on the table you're willing to spend whatever it takes to to get that to inch out that that profit uh and yeah that's what's happened at layer one you know the gas fees are high because there's speculative stuff the the high the higher kind of value Stuff prices at the lower value stuff uh but I think we solved that with with layer twos and and higher layers uh based on there but that's not to say that the meme coins as we're discussing won't be on layer twos and stuff like that but it makes it so that you don't have to be priced out um by that at a kind of layer one which

which I am generally very bullish on and the whole roll-up Centric roadmap obviously falls into that I don't know how sustainable like this particular iteration of meme coins are like Erica you there's like four or five of them and you can't even name the names of them and that's like part of the meme right that's like that's part of the this part of the bit Yeah there's Bitcoin you don't say Harry Potter Sonic and you say the ticker is Bitcoin yeah exactly yeah but like as a meme it violates the one of the major laws of memes it's like you're supposed to be recognizable and easy to digest and easy to pass along like suppose you're supposed to be viral and I kind of see this as just like there's this corner of the internet and they're kind of weird

and they buy weird stuff and it's funny and it's a joke and then they buy the next joke and each thing that they buy is a joke like I would categorize uh miladies in this category as well it's like it's part of that weird coordinate of the internet and they just rotate and this is like the next iteration it's like these weirdly long spelled childhood memory meme coins with with like an actual crypto as their ticker but like it'll be something and I think just like the it'll eventually iterate onto like new test styles of degeneracy and it'll like create all the economics that Anthony was just talking about on layer twos yeah I mean isn't this the beauty of ethereum though anybody in the world can spin up their own economy in like two seconds and we just can do weird [ __ ] with it like I feel like

Humanity has needed this like Humanity loves speculating and like crazy markets and it's just a perfect platform for it I I think I'll use this one thing I've noticed is you guys I'm sure know this better than me but one thing I've noticed is like the pain points of bridging and like so Arbor I would give a shout out to arbitrum like they have if you go to their Bridge you can plug in a custom token address and like bridge over very easily bass has like locked theirs down they have four assets I think it's like eth um coinbase wrapped East like I think Lido eth and I want to say die was the fourth one of the USC song Maybe yeah maybe usdc yeah that would make sense um with no like custom bridging

um like bridging in out of course takes like seven days but one of the biggest things I've seen I don't know if you guys have seen any progress in this but the concept of like shared liquidity pools across layer twos in layer one so basically what's happening is let's just use meme coins because it's conversation of the day um they start on ethereum they burn their LP they say hey we want to go to Layer Two so they bridge over Dev launches a layer 2 LP probably for a lot less money um which is great but now you know there's 10x liquidity on layer 1 versus the layer two and this applies for D5 I've seen all kinds of coins like this right a lot smaller LPS on layer twos do

you guys know of or think we can get to a point where we can have shared liquidity pools across all of these layer twos I think I think this Taps into the world of uh just the off-chain Mev and just like the this virtualization of Market making and Mev arbitragers it's like they are the shared liquidity like one of the biggest funds about ethereum is that like the liquidity is all fractured across all the different chains well we are one Mev bot away from like arbing liquidity across unit swap pools across trains and the the swap from uniswap order routing on chain order routing to uniswap X which is a combination of Dutch auctions plus an intent which is a new style of packaging up a trade like

you can you can like me V Bots will select the bridge to make the trade and swap your chain for you all in a single transaction and from the end user's perspective it'll be instant because they will also just take the seven day wait time by managing their liquidity and their positions and so it's a combination of like Med Bots and Market making as an activity that's in one single Trend like one single stack and it just obfuscates so many bridges like almost basically every bridge for any cut end user and so like that I think that whole world of bridging around ethereum is actually totally going to change yeah I mean I I was gonna say that as well like there was there's a kind of like the maybe two core parts of this I guess like there's the normal bridges

that everyone uses like hot protocol and connects and stuff like that right to bridge across chains and that's distinctly different I think to Shared liquidity because you're literally bridging your tokens from one chain to another like as a user obviously the market makers and stuff can do this as well uh and then there are liquidity pools that sit there too that kind of a shed um so that they take on the risk of that seven day withdrawal period in order to provide liquidity for you they take a fee but then the other big part of it was what David was saying about these kind of like off-chain orders and stuff like that that happens now cow swap obviously pioneered this and uni swap X has come along and kind of iterated on this but essentially the magical thing about that is that the I guess like searches bundles whatever you

want to call them off-chain uh Auto matches they pull liquidity from literally anywhere it doesn't even have to be a layer two it can be another layer one wherever they can get liquidity the Earth planet Earth yeah exactly wherever they can get that to fill your order um and they take on the risk right they take on that any other risk that's a they're bridging risk the withdrawal risk whatever it is they take on that risk but they just go search everywhere that's supported by these protocols and the way it works on cow swap is that they make the these people put up a bond so that if they do fill the order but it's like a failed transaction or or kind of like some toxic Mev they actually get kind of slashed in a sense right from their bond so it's it's a way

to protect the the users as well from being taken advantage of but that's you know there's problems with that as well where people say well if all of the good order flow goes to these off-chain orders and then what's left for the LPS on chain it's just the bad or autofill the toxic order flow as they call it that's one issue with this as well so while it's really cool that you can pull liquidity from anywhere and there's different ways to mitigate the the toxic stuff that goes on there it does post questions for the normal LPS on on chain like what does their order flow look like and that's a whole other discussion that's been going on in the Mev community in uh cow swap uni stop communities and I think that there are various Solutions there but but generally there's there's those sorts of

things but there's also the stuff that the layer twos can do themselves like obviously optimism has this whole super chain thing that they're doing where they can have composability and shared liquidity with all the chains that connect to that as part of the op stack uh and then with with ZK proofs and with with the zero knowledge Roll-Ups um if they're constructed in in a correct way they can actually talk to each other and communicate with each other via the L1 and have shared liquidity this sort of stuff I think is that technical hurdle it's not really something that can't be solved uh but it's it's also demand like where is there is there enough demand to justify building this thing right now I think that with the the liquidity concerns it's not really a big concern like I don't really see people complaining about it they just Bridge

across and bridging is relatively easy um yeah maybe you have to wait a few minutes but no one really cares if you have to wait a few minutes right uh and all the concerns around the seven day withdrawal period I don't think really anyone any regular user is actually going through the normal seven day withdrawal kind of thing because for them damage like you know if it's a big amount of money I've never done that no I haven't done that I mean I don't have a lot of money on l2s right now um and I've said this on on the on my my show a lot where I basically said that I can't trust a lot of money on there right now just because a lot of them still have their training wheels on but if I was to have like 50 of my net worth on an L2

um I'm probably not going to go through the bridges and eat the fee unless I really need to I would I would go through the seven day withdrawal period but most users aren't doing that they're just like you know I'll eat the fee who cares because it's worth it's their expected value is more because they're bridging to somewhere where they think they're going to earn more money so they're paying that fee and and that's where obviously the LPS come in and they fill that hole and they take on the risk and stuff but uh yeah the seven day withdrawal period was so overblown I I'm sure you guys remember how much fighter there was about that and how it's like it's going to be the killer of optimistic Roll-Ups like and now no one even talks about it we talk about it but like I've seen no one else talking about

it yeah I think the whole like across Sorry God uh I think the whole just like cross chain ux issues cross chain liquidity synchronization like time across Bridges like there's no Silver Bullet here it's just a problem that will be like killed by the death by a Thousand Cuts right we're gonna find 10 like different ways to make this whole system better and then all of a sudden there's it's just the whole system is going to become invisible yeah I mean that's one of the cool things about like maybe we can joke about nfts meme coins D5 whatever one of the cool things about the experimentation that happens is testing these systems right like in a way the

meme coin Mania might give us great examples of where the holes are and like user experience when it comes to layer two right like you know it does bridging off on base all my tokens are stuck like I can't even use the bridge for there's no UI for it like maybe people don't realize that until they get there I know a lot of people don't realize there's a seven day wait and like we know hot protocol we know connects we know these options but like a normie who coinbase onboards on to base and then they buy a token and now what say you're like okay well actually the lp looks way better out there I'm gonna move this over ethereum either a they're one of the four approved tokens in the UI or I mean you can go through the contracts but I mean

there's just it's exactly ever gonna figure that out um so there are some like pain points right that I think everyone's still realizing uh but yeah the seven day thing and you know instantly like hot protocol and all these figured out you know just using pools and whatnot but there's there's still a lot the cross chain trading and um you know liquidity pools stuff across chain would be a big breakthrough I think because fragmented fragmented liquidity does suck for the end user um the best price for now is always going to be on ethereum if you're trading in size because there's like a couple coins that are like arbitrim only that's actually another thing I've learned in this there are actually people that live on a layer two and that's it there's

people that live on Arboretum and refuse to touch ethereum and not they don't refuse but they're just like you know the fees aren't worth it why do I need to bridge fees aren't worth it yeah exactly so they're like oh this coin launched on arbitrum I'm gonna trade it because it's something new right and I wasn't able to like trade it on ethereum so there's all these worlds out there I mean this is something you and I talked about a long time ago when nfts launched it's like eth went from just like East and trading to now he had entities all these silos I feel like now there's you know I know you guys are still doing this full-time like tracing it on the podcast and stuff but it was like 15 silos I feel like hit this point there is and it's it's very hard to keep up

with everything even though like I try to keep up with as much as I can like the nft stuff was just kind of crazy for me and it still it still is like I look at it and I know you you both of you spent more time in it than I did I know Eric you were pretty big on nfts generally but I look at it from the outside looking in and I'm like God it just looks like tokens with with pictures as Kobe said once upon a time like all coins with pictures right yeah it it just looks like the best ones are those yeah yeah exactly and then I look at that I'm like you know what I've done this so many times before I've played this game this is just not interesting to me uh at this point in my life but I

get why people are interested in it I get why people get attached to it more than a token you know there's a whole concept of marrying the bag like marrying your nfts even more I guess like uh is even stronger because it's a picture right you can relate to it like as a human like you've got an emotional attachment to it especially if it's your profile picture it's an even bigger emotional attachment so I understand why nft people are pretty rabid about their own collections like the private picture Collections and about how they you know them going down is like they feel like a personal kind of attack on themselves when someone is like selling those pfps like I know the whole blur thing where blur was um enabling liquidity for these things and people were like oh my God it's

Blissful people are just farming the tokens I'm like look at the end of the day it's a marker and if there was more demand for these things then they wouldn't be going down it's the same thing as any anything and and I get the whole token blur just created created an efficient market that's all yes yeah and and by saying that it's blur's fault you're essentially admitting that the market the only reason why your things went out yeah yeah exactly like you're just admitting that uh that whole thing but I understand the frustration because as I said people get really attached to these things and um I understand attachments to to things that you identify with like I'm very attached to ethereum and when I see someone fighting ethereum like I sometimes feel like it's a personal

attack on on me even though it isn't just because I'm so emotionally involved with it uh but you know I don't think people generally felt that for for a lot of tokens because there are certain people that do like the l1s especially we've seen it play out people get really attached to the l1s but generally you know a lot of other tokens people don't get emotionally attached to them as much as they do with nfts and I think that's where a lot of the the kind of toxic stuff has come out of it but at the end of the day there are still collections out there that are worth a lot like crypto punks have actually held their value quite well and that falls back to what we were talking about before we were talking about punks doesn't have a road map punx is like the Bitcoin of

nfts where there's no roadmap there's no expectations it's just the book of work right yeah yeah exactly it's it's just the punk and I think when what what what failed with or what ended up happening with board Apes is that they attached a roadmap to it they attached all these products to it they attached expectations to it and then people were like well if it's not executing on the roadmap that's bearish for for the board a kind of pfps and they sell them whereas with puns it's like they're just punks man you know you buy a punk that looks like you making your profile picture uh so that's that's me looking the outside looking in but like I'm sure uh you guys have your own opinions on this but uh generally yeah I don't spend too much time in nft system anytime I talk about nfts as well people kind of

like come at me and like you don't spend any time in our ecosystem how can you have opinion on this I'm like well because I know what markets are like and markets it doesn't matter what asset it is they have it's the same thing it's exactly the same thing every time I mean people buy nfts for what they represent right uh every single like beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course but like you know the each different nft tribe is a community it's attracted a certain set of people who Express certain sets of ideas and if you Vibe with those ideas maybe you want to buy one of those nfts right it's like there are sneaker heads there are watch people and there are nft people and why did I buy a crypto Punk oh because someday one day on Twitter I saw

somebody give a take that crypto punks are for youth Maxis who bought ether really early I'm like and like I don't have him a lady and I don't I don't really Vibe with them lately I don't get the joke so I don't have one and that's just the deal yeah exactly yeah I definitely think a lot I think long term but nfts so I actually have a theory on nfts that the next cycle will be around one of one part so I think Pro pfps was like the meme block me Point launched nfts right and it got ridiculous and then I 100 agree every single nft that had a road map got destroyed I mean the ultimate example is of course being like bro board Apes uh Moon Birds Doodles they

all have these big promises road maps is the exceptions yeah sure they're still up there a little bit yeah um but a lot of these and they even delivered on a lot of the road maps and still got absolutely destroyed so um say four or five eth I think they're doing okay stop there they are yeah I mean even the other ones that delivered got destroyed as well and I think what I was saying before about the destroying of that kind of like fantasy narrative illusion which is more powerful than the reality right yeah and I I think like the what everybody missed in the first nft Mania is the true benefit potential of nfts is from an artist perspective being able to

launch your own brand and Market from anywhere in the world um and launch on Foundation or you know super rare whatever it might be um and cut out the middleman that is like art galleries and the struggle of being an artist in India and reaching American people to like show your art like to me that is the true benefit of nfts and this technology I don't think people have really realized that yet because we got so obsessed with pfps pumping I don't think that's like where that space is going to end up maybe not five year I mean honestly it could be a long play 10 20 30 years like for like art traditionally takes hundreds of years to go through like changes and Renaissance and whatnot

um I I think we'll see that whole narrative shift from pfp is the one of one art for sure mm-hmm and yeah and and I think it's the pfps is one of one and then there's also the collections as well of like artists like DC investor speaks a lot about this on on Twitter where he's got these collections that he has has acquired um and he's acquired the pieces that he believes are you know Grails as they as they call them um and it's all about I guess like the mimetics of it like do enough people think that these things are are cool collections or valuable collections like Vibe with the artists they Vibe with the culture of it um and it's kind of as you said like it's in the eye of the beholder at the end of the day when these things succeed or die but that can

change over time like there are you know there is uh obviously with with Vincent van Gogh a lot of his paintings were considered crap when he was alive and then he died and then over the over time they became some of the most valuable art pieces in the world and I think that the same is going to happen to a lot of the stuff within within nfts it's probably not going to be pfps as you said like it's definitely going to be like these one of ones or they maybe these more curated art collections uh because they withstand the test of time again they don't have a road map right they don't have products delivered that is the art is it right like I was saying before punks that's it it's a punk that you buy it you don't you you Vibe with it you don't

um and those are the things that will typically probably last as you said hundreds and hundreds of years instead of fading away um because they don't have any expectations they can survive on their own they're they're kind of self-contained ecosystem rather than relying on external parties to drive to kind of Drive value to it but I mean generally I'm not someone who's into the art scene so to speak I mean I am in a different way like obviously I I collect my figurines as we all know right and that's a that's a whole lot what are those back there oh yeah do I see them oh yeah do you have a few of those yeah just just a few right um but I think yeah definitely when it comes to like that the the that kind of art it's just not something that is traditionally

vibed with me but I understand for other people why it does and as you said it's very subjective I am the eye of the beholder sorts of things so so yeah but it's gonna be interesting to see like the time scale as well but because crypto makes everything faster like will it make this faster like or will this just be another thing that takes 100 years to play out like like traditionally art has there's a there's a certain amount of irony of Anthony susano saying I don't know I'm not nfts they're not really for me with an army of figurines behind him yeah but I I think I've explained before that like it's more about it's more about the the vibe like the physical Collectibles being around me and like that that's a Vibe like I don't have anywhere to display my digital collectibles in the

same way right like maybe sorry on Twitter man yeah but but the thing is is that it's there's like a separation from from there like I exist as a person in the physical world right my figurines exist with me and the same plane of existence with the digital Collectibles they exist in the digital world I don't exist there yet right I don't have like full AR integration and VR integration I'm not in that space all the time I'm plugged in bro I I am but it's still I'm looking at a screen right it's not like plugged into me like it's a weird kind of thing I can't really describe it um but until that happens I think yeah you know if you still live in a virtual world I think it's different um uh but there have been digital Collectibles or things that I've collected in the past

um like when I was playing World of Warcraft a lot like I would be really excited about getting like a unique Mount or a unique item or something and I would I would get attached to that but that's because I could show it off in a world in a virtual world that I spent a lot of time in and uh it would be the world is the internet dude yes but there's not there's not a telegram there's not but there's not a central place besides maybe putting like a punk as my profile picture there's not really that Central kind of place that a lot of people kind of gather around I think you know you say the internet but like the internet is so many different places I'm talking about like a defined actual space like like you know what I mean like there's a defined space in the

physical world for art it's an art gallery right you go there and it's like a defined space for those things um whereas the internet is so many different different areas right if I go and try to display my nfts on Reddit they're gonna [ __ ] destroy me they're like who are you like why are you you're a scammer right [ __ ] T's whatever um if I do it on my but they have their own NF tars the Avatar yeah yeah but I'm talking Reddit generally right yeah yeah I'm talking about Reddit generally though if I go on Twitter on crypto Twitter with my punk profile picture people you know people will like that but if I go to normal Twitter they'll be like ah this guy's got a an ft profile picture like the blue check thing you go to to Twitter that hates Elon and

they're like ah blue check your opinion means nothing because you're paying Elon for Twitter right it's it's it's just it depends on the community that you're in and no one gave a [ __ ] about my unique wow items in like a RuneScape for example or in like Guild Wars uh they only cared about it in wow so that's the that's my kind of view on things is like unless there's a defined actual virtual space like I guess board Apes try to do it with their game that they're making where you can go there and you can be your board ape character and stuff like that it just doesn't Vibe with me uh and how I view these things I know other people are different but that's just how I generally view it but the physical figurines just Vibes with me I don't know I just like being around I like

organizing them and everything so yeah definitely I get it I do get it I think I do think well metaverse got overly hyped and we're probably still a long way away from whatever I didn't even use that word but that literally was I was literally describing that the entire time I mean once we get there and that does represent kind of your identity in that space I do think that would be a huge boom print ft's because you can prove ownership they're rare and stuff like that so I I do get that like right now I mean the Twitter implementing um nft thing was huge right like people do want to display those and if you see like an account with a punk but it's not you know the hexagon you're kind of like yeah like it does actually mean a lot right um so I do think having that like

digital proof of like you could print out your punk and put in your house and stuff and like if you rip someone else's Punk off and put it on your wall it'd be kind of douchey so like you know people probably believe that you actually own it but of course there is like a boom in um like nft LED displays which I I do think is pretty cool um you can like load up your wallet and just cycle through so we're getting there but yeah I totally agree I I mean it so I will say one thing I don't want to trash pfps too hard because I do think some will bounce back and one thing I'm seeing is just them being used for like brand identity for communities like that that's a big one right um whether like a project launches them

themselves and everyone kind of realized behind that or just hey I'm a crypto Bonker hey I'm a lady here or hey um whatever like that really brings people together on Twitter and like kind of identifies you and I I think that can still be a really big boom for pfp it's like I'm not saying all pmps are going to zero like I I'm still hyper bullish punks I still have my punks like they're in my opinion still going up and they felt value well you know just like crypto 95 might go to zero but well there'll still be a place for pfps and I think one of the big things is around that kind of like identity Community identity thing I think you guys are both totally underselling how much we already live in the metaverse anyways and just like the

raw significance of the pfp across all internet rooms like you can take your punk and you can put it on you as your pfp on Instagram on Facebook on Twitter on Reddit on I don't know uh give me something else Pinterest right like LinkedIn the PF LinkedIn I have my punk as my pfv on LinkedIn I think Eric does too I do too the pfp is huge and like why do people wear Rolexes to flex do you have so much Flex surface area as the pfp it's like I and like Anthony I know you're like yeah you need a dedicated spot I don't think you do bro it's like that's the internet man like we're on the internet that is the spot it is the place yeah well I I don't

disagree with you but at the same time like yeah I spend a lot of time online so to speak right and on the internet and things like that but I still don't like physically feel like connected to that space like I do to my space around me right like it's a subjective thing it's not going to be different for everyone right and maybe it's a generational thing too maybe people that are like younger than us like uh like uh in their teens right now maybe they feel a much stronger connection to the digital world right because it's like they've grown up with it from literally when they were born basically like I think for for Millennials uh it's a bit different like for us David are you a millennial Eric I don't even know I don't I think you are he's an elder Millennial yeah we're younger

Millennials whatever the hell that is you're not that much older than yeah you know older than us you're like five years older than me but yeah I think yeah 36 in crypto is like you guys okay yeah yeah but I think there's that kind of thing of like we came in like halfway right the internet was like booming when we were teenagers whereas for these people that are now teenagers it was always there that it was there was always online like Wi-Fi is everywhere for them you know they don't even call it the internet they call it Wi-Fi a lot of the time right because it's just yeah yeah man the young people I've spoken to they don't call it the internet they say do you have Wi-Fi or I'm on the Wi-Fi or whatever right it's just it's a whole thing for them right so they grew up

with other girl they grew up with tech they grew up with like iPads and phones in their hand from a young age so I think for them their connection to it because it's it's formulated in their formative years will be a lot stronger but for me being like in the halfway point I spend a lot of time online I do have connections in some worlds but the physical space is still I don't know something that I Vibe with a lot stronger and that's why I have a study with earrings in it everywhere and other such Collectibles um so and from that perspective I mean I I wear watches as well I wear nice watches as well I mean I Dave you said it was the flex I do it for not really flexing purpose I do it because I love I love watches but that's another physical

thing at the same time so I think you gotta you gotta look at it from that perspective as well but it's also very subjective so my opinion is going to be very different to yours someone else's some people are never gonna Vibe with it like my parents are probably never going to Vibe with that at all even though they're online a lot of the time as well they're a different type of online my dad's online because he's watching his uh AFL which is um Australian Rules Football games right he's only he's doing that all the time on his phone and stuff like that he's watching like clips of people talking about the players and things like that whereas like I never do that but he's never going to go into a into uh the nft stuff he's never going to go into crypto Twitter or anything

like that so there's different communities that's why I say saying the internet it just doesn't really Define anything like it's just it's it's too big right it is and there's there's defined areas in the internet for different types of of people yeah I mean I I definitely think it'll be the younger Generations that adopt nfts in the long term for for what day for what you're both saying like you guys are kind of saying the same thing David's saying it's already a digital identity to me Anthony you're saying you don't quite feel that yeah but you get it um I think we'll get there it's more being able to prove across like right now anybody can upload a pfp to LinkedIn and claim it to them right so getting these like platforms to kind of unite around that well it's like a long time I

do want to say though I think we grew up in one of the coolest Generations because like early in life we didn't have the internet we didn't really have computers and we got to see that world and we got to see the like transition to I I feel like growing up now this is like the most Boomer thing ever to say though like growing up only knowing like how the world is today with internet and media like I'm glad I had those early years of not having that right like actually playing outside and not like being attached to a phone and stuff like that I I think we have more training Obama Sonic coin yeah exactly yeah exactly somehow you ended up that there at 36 go figure out well that's the thing you're sharing that even

Boomers can get with the the cool kids right right exactly yeah there's but that's the thing like it's always going to be the same thing for anything really there's always the generational divides and splits for various different reasons and I think the world just routes around that and people just pay attention and do and to things that they want to do but there are yeah there are those transition periods right those those big transition periods that happen and it takes decades to happen but then it snowballs pretty quickly and it becomes just a way of life for people you know there are people hundreds of years ago that didn't have uh anything close to what we have today you know it's funny there are there there's there's kind of like something that I read where people say even like the poorest person in a first world country uh lives better than

than a lot of people you know that were considered a middle class I guess you could call them like 100 years ago or something like that right just because of the stuff that we have access to um and and things like that like there are literally like homeless people who have phones and the internet they have access to the same internet that we do right they have access to those same same kind of services there um and they're living better because of that right if you really want to put in that frame of mind then people did back in in you know even just 100 years ago so I think Society routes around those things and evolves but there are growing pains for sure and The Growing Pains take many many many many forms but yeah it's going to be interesting I I I would

say that overall I'm not bearish on nfts uh as a category obviously but it's it's the same with anything like I'm not bearish on tokens but I'm bearish on 99 of tokens right of like Arc 20 tokens because they're not good Investments but the the concept of a token's strong so so yeah it's probably that like some very small subset of nfts are going to come back like five percent or less and the ones that do are gonna be bangers and you have your safe ones like crypto punks like I don't think anyone's betting against crypto punks but the ones that are dead better than dead some might come back punks can become a thing where it's like a generational thing where you hand down your punk to your kid that's where the value really shines right or it becomes

across Generations that's my plan like that is my plan like because you hit it you hit the nail on the head like to me yeah I mean he's a van Gogh or whatever right so I mean there's there's a few things that you know are gonna stay and be big and to meet boxes there's just no doubt about it yeah yeah yeah family that's just known to own a punk oh you give up the Connor family they want a punk yeah so the family interesting things about that one of the more interesting things about that is how you can't lose well you can lose them of course but like a lot of famous art has been just destroyed over time right but one of the more interesting things when it comes to punks or like famous in the

tea artists that can't happen um not sure if bullish or bearish I mean if you're an actual holder that kept like onto a good piece of art kept it nice that would be bullish for you in the past if people lost it um but yeah the different quality of of things right like can determine their value and and that's the thing yeah yeah I mean the trading card thing's something that I spent a lot of time in and yeah there's like a massive jump in price between like something that's rated a nine and something that's rated a ten and it depends on the supply and how many of those things are available but I guess with nfts as the quality issue doesn't exist it's more of like the traits people look at right and it's like how rare is this trait and stuff like that

um but by using punks as the example right as the perfect example there the rarest punks are the ones that have like the Apes and the aliens you know the uh but the the quality thing is is not that doesn't exist I mean you could you could program that in at the Smart contract level where like quality would degrade over time if your address does something you know it doesn't action or your address has a failed transaction okay the quality of your nft is now uh degraded because of that I don't know I'm thinking of the top of my head but generally I don't think anyone's really going to do that so yeah the quality of Remains the Same awesome awesome well yeah I think on that note we can end it there for today so yeah thank you both for for joining thank you David for joining us as a

special guest for today um yeah yeah we've done a lot of content over the last few days together yeah I've done many podcasts multiple podcasts inside of the same day but I've never done multiple podcasts with the same person in the same day so that's a new record for me bullish bullish my friends all right well thank you everyone for listening and watching be sure to subscribe to the channel if you haven't yet give it a thumbs up and we'll be back next time maybe with David maybe not I don't know uh we'll see we'll see you next time but yeah thanks everyone here's this