Crypto's Ultimate End State With Avery Ching

Transcript

and we see several profitable projects in Aptos that always gets us really really excited since are self-sustaining that flywheel of kind of incubation all the way to um building uh very interesting uh products with part of Market fit is something that we're really focused on now and I think that's with that focus in the foundation with new people New Blood new ideas as well as new energy towards uh ecosystem development is is really exciting to us hey everyone welcome back to Empire I'm taking this one solo no Santi today but we are lucky enough to be joined by Avery Ching the uh co-founder and CEO of aptus labs uh Avery I think first time on Empire so welcome to the show man thank you very much I'm excited to be here basically I want to have you on

because uh you are now the CEO of aptus labs um I think a lot of people knew Mo um and you know you you and mo were co-founders of Aptos you guys started Aptos obviously the story is very well known coming out of Facebook and I think you have been the kind of technical leader and he was more of the I I don't know the right like the CEO or you know he was the you know kind of more front-facing person and you guys had a big change semi recently right I think it was in December you announced that you uh MO is stepping back moving more into a strategic advisory role you're moving more into the CEO role tell us just about this pretty big change um both for I'm interested both from the aptus lens and for you personally I mean moving into the CEO world it's a big

personal change so yeah it definitely goes without saying that Mo helps get the company to where it is um really appreciate all the work he's done uh that being said I'm very excited to step into the COO role I'm looking forward to making very significant changes in how we operate especially how we build out the ecosystem uh the first month has already been quite interesting uh we've been restructuring how the ecosystem Team Works they'll be transitioning from the labs to the foundation uh headed up by Ash who's a veteran in the space and kind of ex salana uh member who knows how to build community we're also doubling down on how we think about community ecosystem so much better tooling uh support for ecosystem Builders W glove support and everything else is just really to help them kind of

grow and scale without toss into the future nice did you ever think you'd be in the role um I don't know I didn't I to be honest I I I I think if we were still in meta we might have and launched there we might still be there who knows um my mission has always just been how do we bring this technology change to people around the world uh in a way that would improve society and that means you know how we kind of find a world where decentralized systems are the the infrastructure for us to move assets around to own assets to protect our rights uh to protect our freedoms and also um support kind of Global Communication on a scale that's never been done before so um no matter what role I'm in uh that's my mission and I'm

very excited to see it happen here at Aptos yeah if you think back to the early days of Aptos I I forget when you guys launched I think 2022 I want to say but I might be getting that wrong I don't know when you guys started the idea and kind of incubated obviously Facebook and stuff like that and um so I don't know the full progression but like what how would you what what like how did you think about giving yourself a um a rating like a grade basically on the scorecard and like I guess I'm curious what you when you laid out that initial Vision like what did you guys what has gone according to plan and what has been different and what have you guys gotten right and what have you guys gotten wrong oh that's good a good question so I I think that's only proper tell this

story from 2018 which is kind of when the first kicked off in this form of of Libra and DM and so going back to those days I think we were just interested in how do you build a payments Network that would support billions of people around the world 247 uh across applications did not include just Facebook Instagram and WhatsApp but with support Visa Mastercard Uber lift and so many other companies that had joined the DM Association and so with respect to that like a new programing language a new blockchain infrastructure that could scale um I feel like that was you know people don't mean not know this but that was very early days we launched our test net it was all good um everything worked fine um but the technology has come a long way since and uh it's not just you

know me or a couple of people it's really I think there are more than 30 people that eventually ended up joining us from from meta at apas Labs that had worked on the project in the past from Engineers to the the legal team uh to other folks um uh that just were passionate about this vision of how do you support a decentralized internet that is uh that is meant for all five billion internet users out there and so from that perspective I'm I think we've done really well in terms of BU the tech uh just to recap a little bit of some of the highlights AAS is the most scalable lowest latency and cheapest blockchain out there today for scale we've demonstrated more than two billion transactions per second on a preview net just to put that into

context uh you know two billion transactions in a single day is about 25,000 transactions per second sustained that's more than Visa Mastercard and every other credit card processor put together uh that processes in one day um so it shows that you can demonstrat and demonstrates you can support the payment use cases of of today on the decentralized internet additionally in 2024 I think we've seen Aptos set the the daily mainnet uh transaction volume uh four times uh peing at 326 million I think in August uh which is more than 3,700 transactions per second no slowdowns um no increased fees no downtime no issues with their

applications and that again is just a very good proof point for a main that to show that just because you have high throughput doesn't mean you have to have an issue with your network um and uh some from skele perspective we feel really good about this space like this can support major major use cases from a latency perspective we've been able to improve our our consensus bottlenecks to to be the theorical best possible that's just three Network cops before you get a commit and even with the mor zap do framework we can actually drop that even lower U but we in 2024 already kind of achieved about um you know 850 800 milliseconds of of latency from user perspective this is not from a blockchain perspective and so what this means is that you know if you go to a

website um it usually takes about two and half seconds to load a very good performing website and milliseconds is a third of that right so you can actually do something in a website and have a web three AC be a part of it and not affect the usual agency which of course is something that's important for people as they they brows the web um so very excited about the laty infrastructure as well that we built out of APs the third thing is in terms of cost today apas is I think the only move chain with usdc and usdt live on it um and being able to move usdt at a hundredth of a cent per transaction uh allows not just users to basically have almost free transactions but the other thing is that it enables

new use cases that just weren't possible before whether it's streaming transactions or micro payments um or different kinds of payment models that allow you to get very very fine regularity or even thinking about things where you want to just pay folks in very small volumes for example if people are watching this podcast they really like what you're saying and um they want to kind of give you a very small tip the transaction fee is not going to be a large part of that so seeing all that happen in in kind of the technology space in 2024 something that um I think is is really important to um to show the industry that look web 3 is not just a toy it is something that can be used for Mission critical use cases and I think that's something we established really really well so I give

ourselves a good grade in that I do think tipping tipping Empire host is Mission critical I would agree with you that people more people should be tipping Santi and me I I agree with that um I have a I have a bunch of questions actually on Aptos and the text side of things because you guys R but before we get there um how do you think about like what I'd maybe call the old Aptos of the first couple years and then maybe the new apos and there's probably two lenses to that maybe there's the technical lens and the ecosystem lens but before we even talking about that like I just curious like how are you different from Mo like like how you know like I have a co-founder his name is Mike and a lot of people who listen the show probably know him like um we kind of just like split

the role like but I think if one of us was running block Works without the other it'd be very different versus if Mike stepped in and ran it without me it'd be very different so I'm just curious like how do how do you think about just how are you different from Mo and how will you run it differently than Mo yeah I I think a lot about the tech obviously but also the products built in the space and how the tech and the products come together in a way that drives interesting new US usage and adoption um and so I think that's why the focus eism is so important for me for example um going to some of the defi products in the space um I think we really want to understand like you know what what what challenges they face what's interesting to them what brings

them more value and so for defi a lot of it is like DET take to trade times how do you fast do you get from the information kind of Discovery to be able to trade on the information and so that's where a lot of the um New improvements we're going to make going forward in the infrastructure is especially important um apos is basically a trading system for for digital assets and you know we've already got the fastest block times out there which is important uh about 200 milliseconds um today but we're going to drop that to under 100 and that's going to like double the speed of in which people get information can act on it going forward another area that's very exciting is about eveng transactions and so for us to be able to you know once you see a price change be able to act

instantly on that can kind of drop the latency to to non-existent um and that's just a flavor of a couple of things that are going to be coming in in the new trading infrastructure but we're excited to see trading take on a major use case within the appos SE system because of its ability to kind of um uh operate at speeds press precedented for dexes for spots uh as well as perss for clubs as well as amm and other kinds of innovative products can be built now that you have this unique infrastructure one thing we have noticed is arrogators like Panora and abas have have gotten very high traffic and very high usage because of the fact there's such low fees right if the fees are very low having multiple routes in which you want to kind of uh move money around is is

something that uh is much more open because of the fact that the the the route uh um kind of inlays are not too too expensive uh We've also seen that um you know having the the the natives on on chain as well as interesting new real assets allows for new use cases that just aren't possible in the past so we're really excited about kind of the merging of the product in the tech like what things can you do that just aren't possible anywhere else and that's things around kind of this um very very fying rain movement of money through aggregators it's also through the idea that now you can have the most efficient dexes uh spot and pers on the planet uh and now that the kind of tick to trade times reduced significantly um we can see um new kind of trading applications

and new kind of alpha available for Traders that aren't possible in other desen exchanges why are you what is the um thing that lets you guys be able to have what did you say 25,000 I think you said transactions per second and what you Visa is like 1,700 and I I don't know the other chain and it's a large number for anyone who doesn't know it's very large number why are you guys able to do this and other people can't accomplish this uh it's not that I don't think anyone else can't do it it's just that you know we have um you know we started off with a very good design uh for when it comes to apos one of the key things I think we recognized early in the space is that there's a lot of innovation and uh research to do in the future and so locking yourself into

a design in which you can't upgrade things and can't modify things um doesn't make sense and so uh upgradeability is something that's M Stack from day one we have uning governance to support upgrades very quickly the stack itself is extremely modular um modularity means very different things today in today's world but um the modular design for us means that you can kind of modify parts of the system without having to affect the system as a whole and this allows us to move very quickly in the space the other thing that's important is that we started off what we believe is the right design philosophy around uh a pipeline infrastructure people today talk about asynchronous execution in some of the networks like salana or Monet out there um that's just one phase of a pipeline but in AAS we decided to of

intentionally create a a long pipeline uh that would allow us to kind of operate each of these phases of pipeline in parallel as well as allow these phases to kind of use our machine resources extremely effectively um whether it's one machine or multiple and this is some some very key design concept that's helped us uh to to innovate faster than everybody else out there is this is this the dynamic parallelism Dynamic parm is part of it but the five kind of stages we have today are data dissemination that's how other transactions get into the system and we have a very exciting protocol called Quorum store that that allows you to do this extremely efficiently and and in parallel we also have kind of our ordering phase which is also known as consensus in which we have the directly most optimal consensus protocol on the

planet there uh with three our cops to to get um con agreement then we have the par execution phase that's a dynamic parm phase that we we can we'd love to talk about in this in this podcast then there is the um kind of commit phase in which you agree on the state and finally kind of the the writing to storage phase which we do in parallel to reduce iops and each of these phases have also subphases alongside them but the important thing here is that they all operate in parallel they're all running at the same time and they allow you to kind of Leverage all the machine machine resources at once which allows for a very efficient computation U that allows to get very high throughput as well as extremely little latency in the system uh this might be a really dumb question so you can just tell me if it's

not even the right question to be asking here but what what happens when one of those stages fails right so if one of the stages fails let's say um which one would be the most likely I suppose maybe um actually they're all pretty unlikely but if consensus gets blocked somehow there's a network partition the nodes can't get to agreement U there's something called back pressure in the system which kind of slows things down so if you think about like an assembly pipeline um you know people are building cars for example and somebody is um kind of uh suming the wheels in one phase and putting the body together in another um what happens is we allow certain parts to keep going um so for instance in data dissemination keep something trans to the system but and they keep getting kind of recorded on the on the

blockchain um not on the blockchain but on the nodes but consensus is kind of backed up that will happen for a period of time once consensus actually gets to agreement again it will then agree on all the blocks that been kind of backed up for some period of time and so the system kind of then proceeds uh uh forward without actually missing a beat because all those blocks that were kind of pre-stored are still going to be committed very quickly in the consensus phase decoupled uh so it's a very efficient it's like it's like a production line but a production line where the production pieces don't directly depend on each other you can kind of assemble multiple cars at once and you can assemble lots and lots of cars at the same time even if one phase is is kind of backed up if that makes

sense yeah it does um okay the thing that I think people most people maybe who aren't as technical might know Aptos for is move right and um maybe you could walk us through and I honestly I need to refresh myself like just how you think of Aptos vers the other move uh chains probably suie is the main one um and then also you know there's I was with the inisha folks the other day we know you know rushi was on here the other day and my understanding is that a lot of them have built on apt's move which I'm not even fully sure what that even means at this point um just because I think a lot of these things are getting kind of co uh

intertwined but just curious to hear like how you would lay out that architecture yeah so what people aren't kind of aware of too much is that while move was invented it Facebook back in 2018 it was very primitive it was kind of designed to support those basic use cases of money movement um for the um for the Libra Network and you know since then we've we've taken move and really improved it a lot um and there's a great team here uh led by Wolf Gang who who's been building out a move to support developer infrastructure and also support the appas blockchain um uh very D diligently and also with uh extremely great results um so what we found is that move has been evolving into a place

where it is usable by many different networks and so you can see mve being adopted by inisha and um movement both of these dtas verion uh as well as others like rou and pontum uh and I I think there's other I think even uh we'll see more of those in the future which is great um I think it's really a testament to the fact that people can see the developer Community loves loves building a move and we hear all the time from our developers that you know once you start building a move it's very very hard to kind of go back to any other kind of uh interface uh into into web 3 um you know compared to s s move which is a different variant s move is kind of tailored towards um I think the S infrastructure and ecosystem and there are some things that have remove like no

Global Storage um and there's things that need to be done to support kind of their their infrastructure design decisions uh around um different different Paths of execution uh for us uh we job is with move has been to provide the simplest developer experience out there um and so it supports uh move objects it supports uh the move approver I think it's the it's definitely the only variant that supports the move approver today in optos um the move approver for those of you who don't know is a very interesting um formal verification system uh for certain types of specifications you might make into your coding language and so uh for those you code there's always a way to write unit tests regression tests um for how you think about your logic behaving correctly uh but formal

specifications and formal verification allow you to kind of test all the possible um kind of inputs and outputs into your code and verify that these uh these variants are being upheld and that's a really unique way of kind of ensuring the safety of your code uh that really is impossible anywhere except for the kind of move on apps framework so you know for us we've seen this Evolution from early Facebook days uh to kind of us building mov and now we actually have move to which is a new iteration on top of that with new prary language features a lot of simplification run syntax um uh new enum types closures um many many cool many cool things that people kind of seen from other pring languages have have

been successful and then an adoption into their networks as you kind of um see the developer excitement and interest in how you build and get from ideation to production quickly and safely as possible every you're clear clearly very very intelligent and very amazing engineer how do you think about building all of this stuff in a in an industry where narratives matter so much and like uh I imagine it could be very frustrating sometimes being throne in your position and you know very good engineer uh and you're like you know 25 TP at, TBS and yeah I I won't even try to keep up with you on a lot of these engineering conversations but how do you think about doing all of that but then you know the the maybe the price of apos is not doing as well as the price of

other things or the adoption is not doing as well as other people and you're like guys look at look at how much good technology we've built and like yeah just curious to hear how you think about that yeah I think it's um it is definitely I think you're right that crypto is a very narrative driven space I think we'd all agree about that um you know we love to be very data driven I think for us and so whether it's the performance of our system or the fact that you know there the metrics are out there that show hey opos is the second fastest uh growing ecosystem ACC according to Electric Capital that's great for us to see kind of is a is a good feather in our cap when we think about the impact that move has had in the industry in particular or we look at

the daily of active active address is anonymous or the monthly active address is anonymous and we see like this traction is real we see it not just across one app but you know there's like five six apps are driving significant uh adoption in web 3 um even for those that don't really understand they're even using web 3 so that that's exciting because when we see um you know people being able to leverage the web infrastructure we' built but not having to see like the pain points that we see in other networks whether it's going to be downtime slowest really bad user experience they're using web three they don't know about it so if you're using Facebook um and you don't realize that you're using a MySQL DV back end um that's that's a win I think for our industry in general and you know narratives matter uh um with respect to

kind of how the market thinks about it um but for us uh we're really focused on getting that adoption um and I think the thing that's going to help us a lot in the narrative space is going to be showing like the ecosystem growth that we have really really started to focus on going forward and to your point earlier what's the big difference is you know early on WE focused a lot on Enterprises I think that that was our huge path to adoption I think we've had a lot of good wins in that space I think 2025 um is GNA be us much more doubling down on the builders in this area on the kind of the where three native companies uh that are starting up and spinning up that really want to take advantage and do novel things here and and say like wow you have this Entre this kind of do

with that plus subsec finality plus kind of even private transactions plus you know exciting trading infrastructure those are the folks we wanna we want to see coming ecosystem building out extremely interesting novel products um that are much more wre native going forward do you think the early successes with the institutional and Enterprise crowd actually hurt your ability to win favor with the crypto natives I think it I don't think it hurt us in fact I what we always hear from people in our space is that it excites them where they see like oh wow you know black cross issuing a a fund an apas a FR to issuing a fund an apas NBC universals building on appt those things get the ecosystem really excited because

they think wow the quid is coming users are coming um you know Big Industry that can you know also have distribution will be coming it it kind of enhances them and their ability to kind of build and gets them excited about the space I think the thing that we we need to you know double down on is really how do we support Builders much more effectively um because a lot of energy has gone towards this enterpris of the past now you need to spend a lot more energy towards the builders make sure they got the wet treatment all the way from um how do we Source teams how do we start to make sure that um we have a good alignment with them in terms of um you know like these are products that we both are excited about in the space um how do we support them from engineering

perspective develop those resources to say like hey you want to build something really cool in this uh in the defi space and you really want us to have something like appas intense out there uh that can support turning the blockchain to a giant Dex essentially um we can help you with that um that's something we we can build on our side you can definitely contribute towards or you can build and we can support you um those things I think are are important and then from it comes to uh how we think about uh grants at the foundation being support them extremely quickly fast turnarounds and then um even other support around introductions for VCS to get funding uh as well as kind of use cases towards profitability um over time and we see several Prof projects and appts that always gets us really really excited to

since your self-sustaining that flywheel of kind of incubation all the way to um building uh very interesting products with part of Market fit is something that we're really focused on now and I think that's with the that focus in the foundation with new people New Blood new ideas as well as new energy uh towards um towards uh ecosystem development is is really exciting to us do you think any of these big Enterprises because it's easy to say you know I remember like Reddit moved on to I think it was polygon and it was you know I I don't know how many users redit has hundreds of millions of users right or however many they have and then like are all those people really opening a wallet and like are they you know so how how do you think about the Enterprise side of things I think that's where it's really

important to dig into the product and so to your question earlier one of the biggest difference for me is I take a I take a very strong interest in exactly the product Integrations that we're gonna have you know how do we how do we make sure these Integrations are not just superficial um there are are either AEM Mission critical function or they're moving towards AEM Mission critical function I want to be in that direct pathway of like if you're I don't know if you're um if you're reading a newspaper for example or a newspaper article and you have to pay for that article up front U before you can read it and the transaction has to be done on the blockchain I want our blockchain to be there and I want it to be in the crical path so that you know if this doesn't work well um it actually is a

really bad user experience and so that that I think is like um something that I think it's really important to work out with each of the partners and understand like what is your intentions here is this something that's more of a toy uh or is it something that's you know critical part of your product success and I hope it's you know for the most part it's the ladder or a path to the ladder that gets me really excited earlier in today's episode I mentioned Ledger latest products the stacks and flex and I wanted to take a few seconds to tell you more about them these wallets feature the world's first secure touch screens which don't don't just simplify your digital transactions but also keep them extremely safe these wallets are virtually impenetrable to online attacks because they store your

private key in a secure offline chip you can manage more than 5,500 tokens and install up to 100 apps choose the most trusted name in Hardware wallets and take control of your digital Security today at ledger.com or hit the link in the description of today's episode to check out their latest wallets hey everyone Jason here wanted to uh just take a quick break and highlight everything that's been going on in the mantle ecosystem in just one year mantle has seen its tvl surge by over 1,100% now reaching $1.69 billion that's just such a crazy amount to think about more than 225 protocols have made mantle their home

while the platform's Eco fund has invested $38.5 million in 51 pioneering projects through strategic Partnerships with byit including MNT as collateral supporting Athena to scale and the first ethereum L2 to integrate Ono Finance they just continue to be on the bleeding edge of l2s be sure to stay up to date with what's going on by giving them a follow on X at ZX manle special thanks to the incredible mantle team for sponsoring today's episode okay all right going back to maybe what are we calling it Aptos 2.0 or uh the new the new vision I think it is or you can super is not a bad one

yeah um what is tactically let's say you've been like I don't know in and around the ecosystem for a little while and you've been following for atos for a while what is tactically going to happen in the next 90 days that will be different than what you know maybe Aptos 1.0 looked like yeah I think we've already started exing that so I can kind of tell you yeah yeah um so I think that one of the first pieces was really combining forces of all the ecosystem team at the foundation that's how right now um with new leadership in place with Ash um and and and team coming together we have a lot of new hires happening at the Aldos Foundation right now uh as well the other thing is a focus on regional growth and regional growth has done really well in places like India um

so we've got a small team in India I think with two people in the foundation who are who have just been you know crushing it uh there are more than 40 developer teams in the region more than 500 uh developers in India and I think about seven of our top applications by daily active addresses are out of India as well that's with just two people that to do that and I think a lot of their success was predicated on just being strong understand of the culture uh strong knowledge of of uh of the space as well as the people in that area um and and kind of being able to bring people uh you know across the country together in a way that was very collaborative where these teams help each other they're supportive um um

they're they're even you know having a place for developers to meet and kind of even form teams that's been extremely successful and so this Regional focus is now being expanded to other places uh uh worldwide U recently we announced mov maker uh which is a a group of I think you know four to six uh people who have experienced in VC uh who have built teams in the past Who U can kind of support those teams in their entire life cycle from kind of getting TOA launched to funding and Beyond um operating independently um uh in most part um and this kind of uh this kind of regional Focus uh happening in both India uh chinesee speaking regions of the world

uh to to Korea and Japan as well as um places like Vietnam and and the US now the administration is very supportive um having that Regional focus is something that I think is going to really change the way we think about ecosystem development going forward where do you think the adoption will from faptos this year is it mainly us or is it mainly International so I think a lot of um it's hard to say I think depends a lot on the administration and how fast we can change um the the way that people think about US citizens interacting with blockchain uh today of course a lot of the um a lot of the users are international um I think that yeah so we'll see kind of on on how Administration changes affect those the US users but definitely for

international side we we we still See Asia is a big focus of growth for us um as well as the Middle East Middle East is definitely moving in um especially government efforts are moving quickly to explore uh significant use cases in the space so uh yeah Asia continues to be a focus for us we're we're excited to to engage in the regions we haven't engaged deeply before like like China um and then double down on ecosystem building in places like Vietnam and Korea that we have not done in the past so I'm very very excited to see a lot of the even early Corp of developers that coming out um they're very innovative ideas and I think ones that really take advantage of the strength of abas uh with is the scale the speed um or the cost or all three uh or some unique features whether

it's uh it's Randomness uh or or the things that we provide so yeah uh I expect a massive ecosystem boom in 2025 have you ever thought about if you look at the have you ever thought about becoming more of a platform than a than just a chain and the the maybe a better way to phrase that question is if you look at a lot of the eth l2s whether it's you know optimism or polygon with the agir optimism with the super chain ZK saying you know a lot of them have basically turned into platforms to go build your own chain um how do you what do you think about that strategy and have you ever thought about have you ever thought about that as it's clear more and more people want to use the the Aptos uh Tech to go build their own

chains it is something that we have thought about in the past I mean just for context um we're really proud that we build a great Tech and we're really proud that when people started to use it so I think blogcast team is used by at least five or six other chains including star net polygon flow um we've seen that the you move on upt that we mentioned before used by four or five other chains as well we've seen our consensus protocol um variance of it being used by other networks um and that all just makes us happy because in general we want to see the industry adopt better technology uh to your point though like in terms of outest being more like this platform for others to launch networks um it's something we've considered but I think the thing that always kind of

gives us pause is well why would you need to do that like um our is extremely scalable uh there's no need for other like in many of these cases the reason why you have l2s is because eth can't scale to certain use cases um and so having L2 for use case makes some sense um but every time you do that you break composability and that sucks right so from user perspective if I'm operating L2 and now I've got assets on another L2 I've got a Bridges assets I've got to you know deal with other logins it's just it's not really like a pleasant experience for for any of us right yeah and so that that's something that isn't good and then when you think about composability one of the biggest advantages of what web can do is having

applications work alongside each other in a way where they don't need to ask for permission right so if you have uh you know an asset that you want to borrow against and then take those froad and like uh you know put them into some kind of uh other incentive pool you can do that with like a single transaction in a single Network on shared State um without asking for anyone's permission if you have to cross Bridges and go to different l2s that's just not possible and you you know you kind of isolate users into their own spaces and then make them pay the cost of kind of moving things around um and and take the risk of moving things around too as we see all the bridges and hacks that have happened in

the past so our goal has always been to like how do we kind of get everybody together into one shared State uh where people can kind of build these unique interactions uh and and compose things that just that really take advantage of the value like the value of blockchain is interoperability it is um the ability for us to trust usly interact with each other and separa into different networks breaks all that stuff yeah so we really prefer to have everyone together in one place yeah what are your thoughts on salana um both like what they got right in your mind um and what what you think they either have gotten wrong or will it will be clear that they have gotten wrong in the

future yeah I think salana was kind of the first in the high performance uh botching space and so of course Cru to them for being the first there um they've done a lot of great jobs like building out the ecosystem in particular um and adopting like the adopting and even taking lead on the trends in the in the web Tre space whether it's mcoins or nfts or other things um and so they've done they've done a great job with that out there I think from a from a technology perspective I think out is just kind of superior to that design um we've had a lot of discussions on Twitter about it um some of the things that are difficult like for instance not having a men poool and having a leader that um can get dos because it's holding a you know four

consecutive blocks for like 1.6 seconds um is not the right design for infrastructure that needs to scale and support kind of mission critical use cases um and the the idea of mve a synr execution I think is a good one for them um but it's still not kind of uh getting to the full-fledge like pipeline design we talked about like having five plus stages aign those stages to work independently um and I think I think Mo is a just a a better language of program than kind of the the variant of of rust they have on um just in general this is nothing about Sal in particular but having a a programming language that's custom built for web 3 as opposed to taking an existing language and adopting it um is just going to provide a a much safer experience it'sa as familiar like

you know if you with rust in the past you you might be um a bit more comfortable um or if you're program python for example you might be more comfortable program python for what to use cases but it's just very hard to adapt a language that was never designed for this kind of a high assurance and safety uh to be that in that direction right the idea when you write python code or rust code is just you you write it you have a bug you go and fix it that doesn't work for a smart contract that is cussing you know billions of dollars has to be there has to be different way and different approaching which you take towards that different protections put in place and pro language can't just you can't think about PR in the same in the same way in your view of the future will

all will all value a crew I maybe AC crew is the wrong word but will all of will we live in a multi-chain world is all of this going to happen on will all the value happen on Aptos will we have you know hundreds of chains where every company or you know maybe millions of chains where every company has their own chain well we have three big chains what what is your view of the future my view of the fure well my preferred view of the future is that we have as few chains as possible um so you don't like this idea of you know every institution is launching their own L2 like you don't I don't I mean I think again that going back to my points on composability and interoperability like every time you add an L2 that just it's not great and you know Bridges keep

getting better that's great but the reality is it's still user friction when it comes to how do we think about moving assets around from place a to place B what I do think will happen over time and this is a bit farther into the future is that you can see a chain like appos while today we're in one shared State there may be multiple shared States uh within a chain like apps but there will be very very Uh custom kind of protocol calls to move from state to state that'll exist within a network that is I think the way that it'll they'll get to like so once you kind of Hit the what's reasonable within a shared State I don't know maybe 10 million TPS uh and you want to go across that then maybe another shared State pops up an APS and now you have these

shared states that can communicate very quickly within the same network because uh there's a bespoke network protocol that allows you to do that as opposed to having kind of just like you know 100 different chains connected through spoke Bridges uh that that all have to deal with different nuances of these chains being extremely different that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me they'll be much fewer uh with with standards that um then they're much more interoperable and ideally uh the setup is that you know these cross chard or cross state interactions are extremely fast extremely cheap and they can only do that because they're kind of within a single network uh like an appas Network out there how do we go from the world that we're in today where it feels like you know there's a new chain every day

we've got big announcements you know there's all these new chains launching like uh monad and mega eth and bar chain and story and abstract and there's I mean the list goes on right there's dozens of these things it feels like coming every quarter how do we go from this world to the world of your vision I think uh that's where it comes down to like these Mission critical applications coming on chain like today there aren't a lot of mission critical applications on chain they're very few right most of these are using them in the back end or using them for kind of some some smaller things uh when you see those large apps that get massive traction and massive adoption worldwide that have Mission critical use cases like you know YouTube was built on apas

for example and relied on the apas infrastructure as a part of its critical path I think those are you know when you see those 10 billion 50 billion dollar businesses built there they'll be forced to kind of stop this uh chain expansion yeah how do you find uh how do you uh how do you find it is to recruit developers and Engineers especially from the big web 2 companies right now um in context of not only there's a bunch of other chains who want that talent but actually there's all this you know AI is probably the hottest industry in the world right now how do you um yeah how do you think about it in that light I definitely yeah it's tough because um a lot of the folks that might be the compiler in VM space are the folks that would we would love

to get to work and move for example I think it comes down to uh Mission again like you know what do you want to do um and I think the AI space is very interesting for context I used to work in that space as well to some degree I worked on um things like KS clustering as uh as well as um fiber filtering uh uh and machine learning back at meta um so it's not like those spaces are not interesting there's definitely a lot going on there and um and especially seeing the product cycle move very quickly with ch gbt deep seek and others is um is is is exciting to watch and follow um that being said you know these industries are also becoming somewhat saturated right and and um I'm falling to kind of there are

very few that have the resources to be successful um and the resources I don't mean just in terms of the the kind of funding but also the data the data piece data is probably the most important component when it comes to AI uh and so there are a very small number of organizations that have access to that data um out there so if you're not um at those organizations it's or have access to that data through agreements and Partnerships it's kind of very hard to to to do a good job no matter how good your your model is and how good your your your inference is yeah so uh I think for us you know and maybe a couple years ago might have been tougher uh as it starting to pick up I think these days the playing field is level a little bit in terms of like you

know the opportunities are not maybe as great as they used to be the other thing that people don't know about AI is that you know everyone claims work in AI but very few work on the actro algorithms most people work on the things around thei and it looks a lot more like traditional infrastructure at that point like how do you run scaring Services you have storage service for AI but it's just kind of a storage service and so you know blockchain isn't like that right when you work in blockchain space uh you're working on a lot of the critical things for blockchain infrastructure whether it's going to be the apis for blockchain um access or it's going to be kind of products that support blockchain or the blockchain itself or the language piece you're working directly on the technology that makes it possible to do all this stuff

as opposed to more generic infrastructure and so it's actually I think not not bad these days uh because of the fact that um you know the the kind of fun parts of the are getting a little bit uh saturated yeah what do you think is the most misunderstood thing about Aptos I think the thing that's probably misunderstood the most is just how much Technical Innovations happen to space and that's uh unfortunately in part and in part to to my to myself and to ourselves um we spent a lot of time building we spent a lot of time building Innovations and doing things that we are excited about um as I mentioned we just publishedin work uh today we we published a zapas which is a kind of a

new way to think about um taking the pipeline infrastructure and shrinking it down to the the fastest possible Hy I think ever experienced um but we we we we probably don't we aren't good at uh really kind of repeating the message and making sure people understand what's going on out there the devs in our space know very well like wow you can the things you can do after us you can't do anywhere else um a lot of the Enterprise Partners we buil with also know the same thing um but in terms of making sure the message gets out to a wider Community I think we need to do a better job of of explaining like you know these things that are very highly technical actually have a very big impact on your experience using the blockchain will you do you do you show that by like hiring more marketers or by

like slamming a one sentence message over and over again on Twitter or do by just getting more Builders to talk about it like finding some some merts of the I don't like how how do you do that I think it's all those things you mentioned I think it's all those things um I mean the thing that I love the most is when a you know a product team uses that and just it's like it's working really well like that's the best way right like so if you're building out um a purpose de like merel trade and you can show you got the fastest finality times in the industry I mean that's that's always a great thing to do um or if you're building out like a like a new micro streaming micro payments uh product and that now you've done something that can only exist on app to

that's amazing I think the work that was done to kind of get that 326 million transactions in a day was leveraging a feature of apps uh called aggregators which allows you to do voting extremely fast so what it's doing is it's pounding the shared State like adding these counters together and say like how many votes have been in network so far and just continually increasing this one counter which is being contended on because everyone's touching the same counter um that's not possible anywhere else in the blockchain space um and so the more we can do like show rather than tell of course we got a tell too um uh is great um and um you know to your point all the things you mentioned are are definitely helpful as well but it's it's it's a combination of these things that we need to do much better at yeah

if someone hasn't played around in apos what um what wallet should they use and then what are some apps that they should go play with right now yes I would say definitely um pick up Petra uh there's a mobile app which is really nice um I would say you know Emoji coin would be very fun fun thing to play with it's a meme coin platform that allows you to buy uh emojis um and and join different Community communities it's interface is super slick um I would encourage them to play the defi ecosystem um you know whether it's bin protocols or play with some of the the dexes play Panora for swaps um there's also really great uh gaming companies like uh KJ and and Stan that have really fun products to to

engage with um there's a there's a lot do uh so um once you actually get into Petro there's a list of ecosystem uh kind of applications you can join I'd say definitely go through those and and and have fun and and explore uh what you can do with an app TOs and and just you know transact a bit see see for yourself the fees the speed um if you want to build scale you know try to try to do that as well build an app launch on mean that janary t of scale see how it doesn't really affect other applications system and how you can you can get uh a very very good throughput um for for any application um there's a lot to do yeah awesome man Avery appreciate the time

congrats on the new role um I think a lot of folks are rooting for you guys and rooting for you so yeah best of luck thanks Jah appreciate you [Music]