Crypto’s Speculation Problem, Regulation Without CLARITY & The Gambling Economy

Transcript

Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell any investments or products. >> What's up, folks? >> Are we live? >> We're back We're back We're out of the kitchen, back in the office. >> All right, everyone. Welcome back to the round up. We are live. Santi is out of the kitchen, back into the office. What's up, folks? >> We're cooking. We're cooking, ladies and gentlemen. That's the bottom line here. >> We're cooking. >> No longer cooking. You're doing You're in the kitchen and now you're like, "I'm I'm back to potting in the office."

>> Rob, we had a board meeting this week. We are always cooking, no matter what room we're in. We're always cooking. >> What What happens on these inversion Let me into the Let me into the board meeting. >> Yeah, I don't know what happens on your board meetings. >> I don't think he has them. >> No, he definitely has them now. >> [laughter] >> What happens on your board >> have No, we have board meetings. We have Yeah, we got we got a good crew. We got a good crew. We have 50T folks, Tapiero in in in crowd. We've got Parifi. We got Ben. >> Oh, you got Ben? >> Ben joins. >> version. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good debates. Actually very good board meetings.

Um How we doing? Rob, where where are you Where in the world are you? >> I'm in New York. >> Nice. This is home. >> I'm like I'm trying Next week I'll be in Jackson Hole for this for salt, but I'm trying to stay home a little bit this month and next month. >> Nice. Nice. I will be there. >> August is a August is a sticky month to be traveling. Cuz I prefer not to move. Um Are we going to record in person September in New York? Yea nay, like >> Sure. >> Are you coming? >> I am. >> All right. >> When are you here?

>> Uh first and first week of September, I think. >> All right. >> We should all We should all We should get the band together. >> 8th or 9th or 10th, I will be in DC because of Staple Con, but otherwise >> Oh, that's right. Okay. Let's >> September 8th, 9th, or 12th? >> Yeah. >> 8th, 9th, Oh, I'm signed up to speak at that and I not available then. That's a botch. That's a botch. >> Okay. >> Before the 8th. >> All right, you should apologize to Nick. >> That is a botch. I thought that was October 8th, 9th, and 10th. Okay. All right. I will thank you. I'll give you that.

>> Let me get this straight, Rob. We're playing >> So we're playing on the pod. I like We're getting our calendars ready on this pod right now. >> This is a horrendous podcast. Let's get into the news. This is a horrendous >> This is when you know that there's nothing to talk about, so we're >> No, no, there's a lot to There's a lot to talk about. There's um There's Santi got called out on Twitter by um Lorenzo at Arc, so we should talk about off-chain versus on-chain value accrual, but maybe we can start with has the market found a bottom? There are a lot of signs that point to the market finding a bottom. >> You guys are just perpetually optimistic, aren't you?

>> I think What market and what bottom? >> [laughter] >> I believe we have found a bottom. >> He means memory chips. >> I'm looking at memory ripping 15% today, so you know, we we bounced hard off the bottom and and semis and I mean, the market S&P is at an all-time high, Nasdaq's ripping, semiconductors back on the menu, you know. The guac is back on the menu, ladies and gentlemen. Chipotle is getting a hit. But >> show you guys Let me show you guys two data points here. So, you know, Blockworks actually has a lot of data on I feel like we should create our own like fear and greed index. Check this out. So, first is this is the number of sales calls that we've had. So, we have had more sales calls this week on the calendar than any

week in the past 6 months. And inbound leads, which have historically been a leading indicator of how the market is feeling, right? Because if customers are optimistic, they come inbound, they want to buy things. If they're feeling pessimistic, less inbound leads. We have Our inbound leads have increased 6 weeks in a row. >> What are these What are these people like? What are they trying to buy? What are they most excited about? >> Um the number one source of inbounds right now would be traditional financial um finan- like fin- basically fintechs and financial institutions and traditional brokerages which are now starting to do things with crypto. So, examples of this I don't want to name any customer names, but like FinTechs that are trying to roll out crypto to their to their users.

So, they need like our APIs and they need our data. And then we also have this monitoring platform that we acquired from Messari. So, they're very interested in that. And then I'd say brokerages are the same thing. Like I think brokerages see how much Binance and OKX and Bybit and Coinbase and Kraken making and they're all they're every single one of them is pushing in. Even even even Vanguard is pushing >> what data are they most interested in? Or like what are the the things that they're saying, "Oh, this is the thing I need to know to do my business." >> I mean it's it's so like unique to Blockworks the two things that we can really offer them. There's an internal thing and an external thing. So, internal they anyone who list crypto assets needs to monitor those assets.

There's like a listings team usually or a compliance team. So, we have this monitoring platform which we acquired from Messari. And then on the front end, let's say you are Charles Schwab and you need to show your you want to show your users like you you know you now list Aave. You want to show you know the signals for Aave. You want to show the fundamentals for Aave. You want to show the social sentiment. You want to have like an AI chat box embedded on the Aave page. So, the user can say, "How is Aave different than Morpho?" That's a that would be a front end feature that we offer too. >> So, so the things that they're asking about is mostly around listing stuff and offering stuff to their clients. And then also them having either client capital or personal capital in crypto on

their own platform that they want to be able to monitor like the price. >> That's right. And then I'd say there's there's a third bucket of people who are basically have been told by their CEO that they need to do something in crypto. So, they're spinning up a crypto thing and they have absolutely no idea how to track the data. So, an example of this would be like a FinTech consumer app let's say like a maybe a buy now pay later or like a you know someone who offers you know buying and selling of stocks or lending and borrowing of stocks or something like that. They have been forced by their CEO to roll out crypto. They've no ability to track anything. They don't know how many users they have. They don't know what those users are doing. All of their traditional data breaks down, and so they need to figure

out what's happening. >> Cool. >> Yeah. So, we haven't bottomed yet. >> think you think because of these conversations or we've hit the bottom and prices are going to go up? >> No, I think No, no. I mean, I'm being a little I'm trying to, you know, egg egg Santi on here, but I do think that uh we it was it was become it became very clear that you were right, Rob. We're not passing clarity. Um at least not right now. We're not passing clarity. I think there's still like a 20% chance on Polymarket, and Saylor is selling, you know, is selling a lot of coins, and the market didn't really puke. The market's down what, like 2% in a week? So, I would ex- either that was already baked into the market, which is very likely, like, you

know, Saylor everyone knew Saylor was going to have to sell, and, you know, the odds that clarity was passing were only 20%. So, but look, I think it became >> What's What's the catalyst? Market always needs a catalyst. Like, what is the catalyst here? Clarity's not passing. Saylor's selling. I I hear you. Like, feels like we bottomed. But, the reality is uh Galaxy and every Bitcoin miner's pivoting to now be AI infrastructure. Where's the bid coming going to come from? Like, retail Koreans are longing Sandisk and uh Micron and SK Hynix.

What What What's Where's the demand going to come from to get us into the promised land? >> What Do you I mean, do you Let me in 2023, when you Remember when you were very vocal about longing Solana? And that was pico bottom, right? That was like pico pico pico bottom. What was the >> You You were You were talking about it, too, when it was I was recording when it was hitting eight bucks. >> We were. Um what was the catalyst then? >> It's a good question. I think my appreciation over the years has been more focused on flows than ever before.

Like I feel like that is probably top of mind now for me as I think about like making these decisions of where the market's going to go. Um there's all there's that chart of like money supply M2 correlation to pretty strong correlation to like pretty much any asset of choice. Um so I don't think I was like that sophisticated back then to be honest other than like it feels like it was totally oversold. But 2023, what were other assets in crypto doing? It feels right now that there's a lot of intra-asset correlation within crypto.

Like everything everything's kind of sideways. >> I'll give you the I'll give you the catalyst on this. And so sorry to interrupt there. The catalyst is that clarity even without clarity. So we should talk Let's get into this next segment and Rob, I want your take on some of the stuff going on in DC cuz I know you're spending a lot of time there, but so the SEC and CFTC have been sitting on these rules and regulations that they want to roll out. But they don't want You don't want to overstep, you know, the Senate and the House and and the White House. And so they've been kind of sitting behind clarity. Cuz that's what you That's what you're supposed to do, right? You kind of sit behind clarity. But now that it looks like they're not that clarity isn't going to happen, the SEC

what I believe is going to happen now is that the And I think this is pretty public. Like I I would say this is the common take is that the SEC and CFTC are going to drive forward these rules and regulations that are not actually new to them. You know, Atkins did a keynote at DAS in March. Project Reg Crypto rolled out in sometime in 2025. Like these are not new. They've just been sitting on them for a while because of clarity. I think they will now drive those forward. And they're going to be very very very good for crypto innovation. And crypto innovation will spur crypto prices going up. They're not doing these to move prices. They're They're doing these to spur innovation in the industry. And I think that I think that is probably the big catalyst here. In In way that uh, genius was a massive catalyst for

stablecoin adoption. Um, I think that I think this will be the same for a lot of other >> Let's let's get something straight. Like stablecoin adoption is uh, is one thing, but your coin pumping is a different thing. And my my point is like this market is this bull market is different and it's more difficult for people to digest because we're getting adoption, we're getting inbound leads for enterprises. That doesn't mean that you're going to get the flows coming on chain to translate that into Solana pumping, um, Jito pumping, pick your token of choice.

Market unfortunately, we need to overcome this um, scar tissue of retail that has been burned time and time again with token um, emissions and high float like low float high FDV. That's the thing. Like retail for now years has now understood that like there's just there's no interest in longing stuff that has a vesting schedule attached to it that is very well telegraphed. That's an issue. Like the performance of Tom uh, Levy or Denali produced a great analysis which we talked about here in the pod.

Um, so I'll just leave it there. Like there's these natural like walls of worry that you need to climb for retail and probably institutions to come on and buy um, your token. I think it's been quite bullish if you're a stablecoin issue or if you're a stablecoin project. The adoption's been great. You know, companies like Coinbase launching their chain has been probably a big eye-opener for other boards in saying, "Huh, these guys are printing money over there. We should probably think about doing something similar." So I feel like it's very there's certain pockets of the crypto economy that have done extremely well in spite of tokens going down like 60% 90%.

And that's a good thing. I think like we talked about this over the last 5 years. We'll know crypto's maturing when we have like we break the correlation. Before it was everything was tied to Bitcoin. Like a Bitcoin sneezed everything else caught, you know, a massive flu. Now, the good thing is crypto's become this bigger thing now that you can have success in one pocket of the crypto economy. But I think tokens are just I don't want to say it, but tokens are kind of dead at this point. Doesn't mean they're not alive. Yeah, Rob, what do you think about all this? >> I mean tokens are definitely not dead.

That's a like a crazy thing to say. >> I'm I'm I'm catching the headline. >> Yeah, he's catching the headline. So he want he felt bad that I was sort of the lead-in too many times. Uh and that you know, he didn't he needed to be the the headline a few more times. So Um No, but but Listen, I think I think on the SEC side to your point, like we're we're probably going to innovation exemption like relatively soon, right? Um we're going to get I think not alongside that, we're going to get probably like a startup and fundraising exemption for you some amount to raise and like, you know, how um how much you can raise over some period. We're going to get some um probably has some safe harbor rules uh for people who are trying to do the right thing on shore. Uh and there's

going to be a lot of rule making that's put out. And so I 100% agreed with Yana that it's very clear that that's where the SEC and the CFTC want to go. Um they are very very focused on trying to bring innovation back on shore and trying to bring and foster the crypto uh just ecosystem here in the US uh because they see it as uh strategically important for for the country. Now, I think uh the some of the work that will probably be done or would have been done under legislation like clarity around um maybe taking more risk in terms of of trying to innovate around uh token design. Maybe that some of that

will be harder to to happen now now that there there's not actually legislation. I think that would have been particularly interesting. Some of the things that people might have done around you know, trying to figure out you know, certain disclosure schedules and what that mean and if they disclose certain things, can they go and do you know, direct you know, value accrual to the token or back to the people who hold the token. That becomes I think a little bit more more murky because of the fact that you know, there is concern for like you know, what happens under future regulatory regime. And I do think for some of the people who need to do very long-term planning. So, the largest banks, the largest asset managers, the largest companies in the world, not having legislation will make them

less likely to invest in the space and so regardless of having good rule making. And so it's not all is lost, but it is certainly net worse that if we don't get clarity act. But you know, I do do applaud what you know, Chair Atkins and and Chair Sealeg want to do. Regardless, tokens you know, are a good mechanism for how to you know, operate networks and for how to incentivize people and they will find a way, but that doesn't of course that does not mean Santi that like you know, whatever name your random token is going to go up. That I totally agree with.

>> Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's get into some of the news of news of the week. Maybe the first thing is I think one of the hot topics on Twitter this week was FOMO versus Pump Fun. So, a lot of people were sharing the FOMO charts which if you you know, you're not following on YouTube right now, you can see FOMO just hit a new weekly revenue all-time high 1.88 million in net revenue, 50K daily active traders and Frank Chaparro tweeted out animal spirits are reawakening and I you know, I think there's a lot of conversation about Pump Fun as well. Overtook Hyperliquid in some big with some big metrics.

Revenue is going up, users are going up, buybacks may be starting to work, maybe starting to impact the price. Curious Robin Sante if you guys have any takes on FOMO versus Pump Fun. There's an Austin Barrack tweet. I said interesting to see people comparing Pump Fun and FOMO to Polymarket and Kalshi, which Rob I know you have been intimately involved in that. So curious if you guys have any takes on this. >> Yeah, I mean I don't I don't really understand the the comparison. They're like not the same thing whatsoever, but I I get what it's easy for people to try to find you know analogies or and as Kyle Samani would say about analogies, you know. Um But I I think like listen like they they sort of serve different purposes right

now. Like I understand they're trying to compete with the new pump app the new pump I guess app and like there is like a lot of trading, but you know they're in some ways synergistic because like the more things that get launched and then FOMO list them really quickly and FOMO then people trade it and it's a it's on chain and the with the relay and like it goes through >> So from August this is Blockworks data from August 1st to 7th FOMO routed 139 million into Pump Funds pre-graduation bonding curve. >> Yes, I didn't I didn't know those numbers that's a great number. But so the point is like they're somewhat synergistic. I and so it does feel a little bit like Pump is trying to you know they're trying to to launch this app and they're trying to you know figure out a way to be a part of like

not just the the launchpad piece and the token creation piece, but also you know the the social trading piece as well and so I I get why they're going after them. But but I think today it's a lot of the the same users doing different actions. Now the question will be interesting like FOMO launches a launchpad. I don't know what will happen there. My guess is they probably will at some point although I think I mean we'll see how that that evolves. I think they will both be successful. I think there's a general question here though which is that like you talked about earlier that all of these institutions are, you know, trying to reach out to you and and do work with you, but then like literally the only thing happening on chain right now is is memes. Uh and um and burps of and like

those are the only two things happening. And and so I do wonder um you know, typically in the past like meme cycles have been very short-lived. And people get really excited, there would be a lot of trading, it would go up, you know, uh you know, over maybe a two three month span, then they would crash immediately, everybody would lose money, and you know, then they would kind of they would kind of um you know, valley out. And so if that if we're having a meme cycle again, I think that actually sells spells worse things for the rest of crypto uh in the rest of the tokens in the in the near term. >> Yeah, I'm going to best from pump, so biased, but um Does that We've discussed meme coins here at length of like are they like I feel like there's every time a meme pumps like

there's a discussion of like are meme coins value destructive to broader crypto or is that just really all we're going to do? Like you look at breakout apps, it's all just this type of activity. Does that compute? Like forget about what we think. It's like does that change the calculus and like how regulators perceive the industry, the ability to pass further legislation, and also just gather interest from LPs and other institutional investors to come into the space? Um and I guess like are we are we being maybe too harsh on ourselves when I feel like the industry like criticizes meme coins internally a lot and it's like what Robinhood We don't like necessarily like look at Wall Street and what happens there and the speculation that happens there in the same light because meme coins are just sort of these artifacts that like

have no cash flow and have no nothing else other than memetic value, but yeah, I'm curious how you guys think about that. Like is it demoralizing? Do you not care? Uh does it inform what else you invest in? Um Yeah. >> I I think I don't think the regulators care. Like I don't think they're paying attention. Um Um I do think it hurts like capital flows generally. And so I I mean the LPs, they're not really on Twitter uh but they do ask the question if you give them data around like okay, like this is the thing there's about all this volume on Solana and they will the sophisticated ones will ask you okay, what's happening? And they'll do the diligence on it, right? And uh it it becomes like very clear pretty quickly

like what's happening. And also people are wise to it now cuz we've done this enough times that they've kind of they they can ask the right questions. And I think it also hurts capital flows of like a lot of these net new uh you know, investment companies that are coming in. I mean, you know, FOMO is sort of an interesting story, right? Because they have all of these great traditional investors. They have Benchmark and they have Index and um you know, before that I think Union Square, before that they did a an angel round and so full disclosure, I was in that the angel round that they did uh small check personally. Um and and I like those guys, but Dragonfly's not an investor. But you know, at the end of the day today, like yeah, it's you know, they're building something for the future that's really much really you

know, broad and about you know, social trading and and social finance. But uh today it is basically driven by memes and and perps uh and that type of you know, call it more speculative trading activity. Uh and so I I it would be it there's a lot of conversation around RWAs and and and that's happening on FOMO as well. So I give them the credit for that, but uh I do think that we have to figure out a way for this not to be the only thing that holds so many so much of the attention online. Um or this plus, you know, stablecoin payments for the you know, alts to go up and for you know, the rest of the ecosystem to to grow. Um you know, we're we're seeing early

signs. I think there was some stuff around it's a little bit misleading cuz there's been some stuff on the timeline around like oh like you know, Uniswap, look how much of the volume is RWA now or you know, hyperliquid. Well, that's great, but part of that is because the volume on everything else is just getting crushed, right? And so, like it's a it's it's not just a like a numerator is getting bigger, the denominator is getting smaller, right? And and I think the the same thing there was a bunch of data around oh, DeFi is, you know, as a percent of total trading volume is growing, you know, incredibly quickly. Um, but, you know, again, what does that tell you?

Uh, well, it can tell you a bunch of different things. If you look underneath the data, what it is is that the trading and the C centralized exchanges, which are typically have more kind of normie users and have more users that are not necessarily really crypto native and not using Phantom and and and MetaMask, etc. Um, that interest is like getting coming way down, and the interest for the the really, you know, on-chain people is is either staying the same or or going up. And if you look at hyperliquid's volume, they're they're like basically the same. And so, I I like the I don't know if you look underneath the data, it's not actually great in my mind, even though there's trying to figure out ways to talk about it that's that's really positive.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Going back to FOMO, Rob, I have a question from the venture perspective, and Santem curious about this, too. So, every company goes through a reckoning at some point. So, I would say Pump, and you know, for many companies, there's many reckonings. Pump has clearly gone through their first reckoning. It was I I think you could probably call it the the past year for Rec, right? They were like, you know, could do no wrong, one of the hottest companies in crypto. The past year has definite I don't know what it's been like internally at Pump, but I can imagine a lot of turnover, you you know, moving things internally, figuring out processes, knobs, figuring out what the new products for the next 5 years are going to be. FOMO has not gone through that reckoning. And you know, I I think I don't really personally care

about breakout virality from these companies. I care about how do you get through the reckoning? So, I think that's what I'm looking at for FOMO is like how at some point they will have a reckoning. I don't know what it is. I don't know why it happens, but at some point they will have a reckoning, and it'll be interesting to see how they handle that. I was, you know, we had the founders on the other day. They They seem fantastic, and I think they'll handle it quite well. But, I will say every company at some point goes through a reckoning. Um Rob Rob D'Angelo from the venture perspective, when you're looking at a company, do you take that into account at all? Like if they're so like do you try to invest post the reckoning, pre the reckoning?

Do you look at how like do you care more about how the founders handling the I don't know how to Yeah, or or just doesn't factor in at all. >> No, I mean there's always going to be bumps in the road, right? So, like hopefully they they just don't make anything reckless that like there are some founders that you just feel like these guys are just willing to fly close to the sun to just be like just they're a bit They need They need more support. But, other teams just you know, just I always look for like are these guys going to drive through a wall to make it a success? And and like crypto is a really tough market to build, as you guys know, like before you have a token, then once you have a token like it just it's just really tough. Like anyone who tells you

otherwise is just So, I just look for people that are going to just are tenacious and just are are just persistent. Like like there's never it never gets easier, right? The stakes are higher. Uh you know, there's regular regulators, there's traders, their token goes down. Like it's it's it's tough, man. Like I pretty much every builder I I've backed in or just talked to says the same thing. It's like it just never gets easier ever. >> [laughter] >> It's nature of the beast. >> I was listening during my workout this morning to um Eric Vishria, who is one of the GPs at Benchmark, um who and he did the Cerebrus deal there on the hardware side.

Uh and he had a thing that I guess they'd say at Benchmark, which I I really liked, which was um you know, it if an investment doesn't work at the early stages, if it doesn't work, it it'll not work because of all the reasons that you and your partners said it wouldn't work at investment committee. You you will have been right. Uh and if it does work, you'll also probably have been right and it wouldn't have mattered. Right? And like I I actually quite liked that because I think that to your point Yano, like the like with the really good founders and and you know, we tried only invest in good founders and you know, call it in their earlier stages than not growth stages. Like they will be challenges.

Like nobody is straight up into the right all the time. Like you know, both you know, we're talking about the prediction markets both calcium polymarket have long stories of really really tough times, you know, for years before you know, the what you know, all the seemingly like just like rise to to to start them the last you know, year and a half two years. And so the former guys they're growing incredibly quickly right now. It's accelerating. They're doing incredible job. I'm sure they'll have struggles in the future and you know, hopefully they will get past them. I think they're really good guys. But that's been true of every company. I've never known a company that was just straight up into the right from from day one and and never had any problems. He he also told a story about how in like 2019 or

2020 there he was like sitting at one of the board room that one of the board meetings for Cerberus and they literally like the the chips were melting and they were like there's we put $500 in this business and we think it's going bankrupt right now because the chips are melting. There's not we can't do anything with them and about how like worried he was and like oh we're going to lose all this money or whatever and that look, right? And so I think it's just we never know how it's going to work out. At the end of the day no matter what when you're investing, you're investing in the person and the people and figuring seeing if they can figure it out. >> Yeah.

I mean guys, I want to say the elephant in the room for me now is like to your point I also what made me I listened to that and I said what are we building towards here? Cuz like at some point Yeah, okay, like the future of media when I underwrote polymarket in seed round. Like yes, I do believe that. But at some point it's like you got to put where is the puck going? Cuz like is this all going to matter? And that's my point like at some point I personally am frustrated that yes, stablecoins are good. Like they're they're really good instruments and I think it might just be that we need a little more time.

But at some point like all of most of the activity today has just been uh 24/7 365 speculation like the capital markets and I'm trying to grapple with two conflicting ideas in my brain. One is like you got to build this and it it's proving and it's like working to for enterprises and the other like in the same with the porn with the internet and all that jazz. Like But the other is like when's it going to happen? And maybe my timeline is just a little bit too clouded on on that and like pump and FOMO and there's it it's not a dig on that type of stuff. Like I feel like maybe there's a it is open like investment opportunities

for a lot of people outside the US. Like I get that, but yeah, you know, is this where I want to be spending my venture dollars? Because it feels pretty damn great to be an investor in like a company like SpaceX or Cerebras and like uh these guys are like you just see like it's like biotech investing, right? You can cure like quite literally cure cancer. And it's I don't know. I I do think about that more and more these days. Like where do I want to spend all my venture dollars that I I'm going to deploy this year?

Less and less crypto to be honest. >> Well, but you're spending them automating accounting firms and >> Correct. Correct. >> Right. No, I mean and it does. >> But I again in this >> Right. >> It it's it's um on the spectrum it's it's closer to where I want to be investing for sure. Like uh don't know >> get that. Of course that's not biotech. >> No, no, I grapple but I also grapple with like the icky guy comes so like I'm not a bio I'm not a biomedical engineer. I know I'm going to get burned because the best guys are just have a very unique Like you can't just work your way into being like the best biotech investor like Atlas and a few like quite literally handful of firms have a differentiated on venture. We

talked about this in the board meeting. Like in venture like you I don't have an advantage there. So I balance that out with like I'm an investor in funds that do biotech. I'm not going to do it personally. Personally like I need to balance what am I good at? Uh I've invested a lot in crypto. Um would I do it again? I think I think now my where I want to spend future dollars is very different than what I historically have deployed. And that's just me. >> Wait, are you making the argument so because the returns are greater elsewhere or because you have a moral like you have the moral component tied into it?

>> And I don't want to sound like a a purist here because I feel like like there there's a lot of that in crypto like again coming from someone that invested in a lot of DeFi I just would um I would want to see more more other types of activity coming. More case studies of just And maybe we just need to talk more about that, right? Like this is Rebecca's writing point. Like we as an industry need to just highlight case studies that are not just a leveraged trader that got rinsed in a meme coin cuz there's a lot of other good stuff happening. Um but when you look at the data like on the the vast majority of activity continues to be just that and like it's a >> Yeah.

>> It is the nature of the beast is all I'm saying. I just don't like >> On on let me just on the moral point, I know that's not your point. I think it is um as companies grow it is increasingly tough to actually make the point to actually um there is no good company or bad company anymore. Like is Facebook a good company or bad company? It democratizes global communication and connects billions of people, but it has been linked like it is definitely a cause of like youth mental health crisis. Google organizes all the world's info, but it maintains an a really intense monopoly over your entire digital life.

Amazon completely revolutionized how you get things to your home. Pretty grueling warehouse working conditions. All of these can be true and I think there's crypto doesn't feel like crypto is getting a lot of the bad right now because it's in such a deep bear market. I think the conversation about crypto will flip in in two years when things are going much better. And by the way, I think AI will in two years like you want to hear the the bad? Like watch watch when the midterms come around and the entire country is talking about how bad >> I will tell you That's a great idea.

>> You know what was an interesting hire that I think is a signal of where things are coming is the chief legal officer of Coinbase left to go to um uh to Devin. What's the name of the Devin company? Cognition. Thank you. Um and they're raising at 40B and uh actually fantastic podcast with their their founder on David Senra, but um they That is a So Paul is one of the best lawyer tech lawyers in the world and is fantastic in DC. And if you want to see where the puck is going, I think uh Cognition is gearing up for a big fight in DC as some of the sentiment turns on AI.

>> Someone I was just talking to uh who is incredibly well connected in DC I said this to me yesterday. Um we were talking a little bit about the election. And he was like there are like the top three political or the top three like things that uh the general public cares about and that is going to determine the elections today are affordability jobs and data centers and AI. Those are the those are the things that everybody cares about and right now the general sentiment on data centers and AI is is negative.

Incredibly negative. And then so Sorry, go ahead. >> I'll just leave it at the like the Prometheus myth. I get it. Like it's it's always been the case. I'm just saying I'm probably later on starting to really just to push the puck more towards these case studies around enterprise and like stablecoins are deliver a lot of really good value. We just as an industry need to push more and more of that because we will get drowned in more of the negative stuff and it will not serve us well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, and I I'll just I'll just >> kind of finish the my my point on this, which is that like they um, you know, compare the comparison to AI I think is somewhat relevant because also part of AI's problem is that they have just been so awful at talking about their what they

do and their their business I mean Dario is like it's like he wants people to hate him uh in the general public. Like, oh yeah, I'm going to replace all of your jobs and you're all going to be just you're going to live in abundance, but like you're not going to have anything to do and you don't know how that abundance is going to happen and you know, also all everyone who's making money is, you know, already rich and like, you know, lives in in San Francisco. Um and so it's been it's been incredible the way how poorly the PR of that industry has been, but it which is also true of us in a lot of ways. Uh and so I think we don't help ourselves when the topic of conversation is entirely around whatever, you know, pump and uh and and all of these in the meme coin

stuff. Um And when we're all kind of focused on, you know, these other things. Now, that said, it's it has consolidated a little bit where now people are talking about, okay, I want to talk about stablecoins, I want to talk about algorithmic organization, I want to talk about all of these things. Uh but the people I think a lot of people find the new stuff that's working to be uh boring, right? Uh and so I talk about that when I'm in DC, other people talk about when they're in DC. We talk a lot about innovation happening in capital markets with um and and and things like that, but um we have to I think continue to to jam those points home. Uh and I think then we also have to make sure that we provide opportunities for people to engage with the space that is other than

you know, mean coins. >> Breach, Rob, what are the most optimistic things we should be talking about this week? >> Most optimistic thing we should be >> Are you an investor in Air Baur? Tell me tell me Tell me the raising at 8 billion, no? >> Tell me if Air Baur raising 1.5 billion at an 8 billion dollar valuation is a good or a bad investment right now. And by the way, I would guess tell me if I'm right or wrong about this. I would guess the reason a bank needs that much money is to to to cover to cover the deposit ratio, not because they need to go hire people, but uh good good or bad investment at 8B.

>> Uh I think they're great. So I um I I I really like those guys. Uh Owens is a a good guy, consider him uh we're friendly. We um So banks essentially every bank. So so you can kind of look at bank multiples and you're like, okay, New Bank trades much higher than these other banks trade at, you know, etc. But if you do like a regression on like, you know, what their uh book value is or the price to book multiple relative to the return on equity percentage, like basically every bank trades on that line. It's like it's like very very clearly like that's how like the market looks at these things.

Um and so what when you see banks growing really quickly and you know, they trade at these higher multiples, probably what you can expect is that the market is expecting that their return on equity is going to be very high and also that the equity is going to continue to grow, right? And those are the two things that are really are are really affecting that. Uh Air Baur right now is like the fastest growing bank ever, essentially. They're um you know, they're they just announced that they're over 4 billion dollars in deposits. I think they've been very smart the way they've leaned into um trying to get capital into a capital starved industry that is defense um and using, you know, an industry like uh, like the stablecoin industry and and crypto, which has a lot of capital to

lend because it's like a no work a very a fully collateralized business, uh, in a lot of ways. Um, and so I I I think they've been really smart. They're growing very quickly. Their Their ROE right now is actually like low because they're trying to be, I think, um, or tell the regulators that they're going to be very conservative. And, um, they're to your point, you know, they are they're they're hitting their their capital ratios. Uh, and so they basically need more common equity uh, into the business if they're going to try to continue to grow. And so, um, that's the reason they continue to do it, but they've been very smart about like trying to hoover up as much capital and equity as possible because that is the only way a bank can grow.

>> Hey Rob, on this question like, uh, I think, uh, what's his name? He used to be at Genesis. Is is now their, uh, Ro- Roshan? >> Ro. >> Ro. How do you think about, um, uh, with their are they generally filling a gap in the market that exists or are they going further down taking on more risk, uh, extending loans to, you know, maybe a lot of the venture network of of of, uh, Palmer, um, uh, you know, obviously the defense with Anduril and stuff. Like, I'm curious like, um, when you see a balance sheet grow that much, like, is the standard high?

Um, or are they just loosening some of that and extending more loans to maybe, you know, again again we know the the the we have a precedent of Silicon Valley Bank, right, where where they were very concentrated, very exposed, and, you know, obviously, you know, the market's on an all-time high. There's a lot of interest in neo primes and all this stuff and, you know, reshoring and, you know, Monroe Doctrine 2.0. But, I'm curious like, do you have any insight on that? Like, the the underwriting standards rigor? Uh, cuz the JP Morgan and these other banks, like, they also want that business. Like, you know, they would naturally step in cuz they see a $60 billion company go on IPO. You know, they they'll likely extend a loan there.

I'm not I'm I'm singling out just Anduril, but I'm curious. to >> listen, I I I'm not there for the underwriting. I don't know what's going on. Um obviously they are filling a hole in the market, which as a general rule would imply to you that uh it's, you know, a they're willing to take on certain risks other people aren't, right? Like that that is just like the common way to think about, you know, how you fill these holes in the lending market. Um now, it might not be that much risk. I don't know. I like I don't I don't really know how to think about lending to a um a cash flow negative drone company that is like raised a bunch of venture capital, right? Which is like some of the types of things that they're they're doing. Um I think Ro is actually doing lending to

crypto companies. He's like running the crypto side of that desk and then there's somebody else who does the defense side. Um and I will I will say on the crypto side, like ever since Genesis, of which Ro was on that team, uh there's been, you know, a really dearth of of you know, uh credit in the crypto ecosystem. The largest lenders today are primarily the stablecoin companies, and then, you know, a little bit of uh people like um like Alameda and FalconX and and others, but it hasn't recovered in the way it had been before, and obviously that was a Genesis. Um so, they're doing some of that, and then on the defense side, listen, I I I think it's very clear with Palmer there that they're they're going to have an edge on being able to serve

that that ecosystem. Um but how they're thinking about underwriting, I I don't know, but it it it's, you know, they're they're growing deposits much quicker than they're growing uh loans, which is a good thing. >> Yeah, that's a good thing. Uh there's some really other good news for us to talk about. Um apparently so so starting from the top, like Paolo just tweeted um you know, less than an hour ago that um Tether underwent a full its first full financial audit for Tether International conducted by KPMG, the so-big four. Which resulted in a >> Yeah, which >> Tether faded into shambles.

>> I don't I don't which which I quote resulted in an unqualified clean opinion, marking the highest result possible. An unqualified opinion is the best possible audit opinion an independent auditor can issue. Um Yeah, I don't know if this is true. >> interesting. Look, I mean this is the biggest like, you know, open question around Tether, right? Is why have they never done a full audit? So, I I I haven't done dug into the details. I haven't even >> No, I I haven't either. I'm just saying Tether's financial audit, by at least an order of magnitude, not sure how he measures that, is the largest inaugural audit in the history of finance. Like I guess it's true. They're just on their side.

>> Hmm. Wow. What's your Okay, so that's one. What's your other one? >> That's one. Worthy The other one is Not so much this one. Oh, funny. Apparently the guy that created Forbes 30 under 30 has just been fired from Forbes because he was taking six He took $6 million of payments from a founder of a firm that does business for the magazine. There's always been rumors that like Forbes 30 under 30 is just a joke cuz like a lot of people just paid to get on there or just it's sort of like a pay-to-play kind of thing and and so it's just obviously well known the meme of

you know, 30 under 30 and it's funny that the guy that created it is now got fired cuz he was taking on >> Taking some money off the table. Santi, I saw you also saw the sent the Collector Crypt. >> Yeah, that was also a good >> like this get you excited about crypto? Like is this interesting or not to you? So, Collector Crypt for those who haven't seen is So, there's this whole um uh TCG space, right? In uh TCG is trading card game. And there's a lot of on-chain things like BZ and Collector Crypt.

>> Pokemon cards and, you know, baseball cards and >> Yeah, but there's the on-chain players would be like BZ and Collector Crypt basically. So, BZ, I saw I saw that you sent sent this tweet to us. Uh, Collector Crypt has officially crossed $1 billion in gross revenue, which is just massive. And actually I think the the single best performing asset of the last couple of months is Pokémon cards. Um, outperformed AI, outperformed any crypto token, outperformed any anything. It's Pokémon cards. So, I think the Collector Crypt has been absolutely ripping.

And uh, I don't want to take away from the growth. It's it's almost it's a billion in in gross revenue. Uh, >> There's gross, not net. What's their take rate there? >> Not net. So, if you look at this, I don't know if you can see this, but um, net revenue equals gross revenue minus the gotcha gotcha gotcha buyback repurchase. Gross profit is net revenue minus COGS minus the secondary marketplace repurchase cost. So, I think just like any marketplace business, like you really have to look at how they are counting revenue.

>> Yeah, yeah, totally. >> And yeah, like like >> For what it's worth, I think Collector Crypt has is one of the that like they're operating better than nearly any company in crypto today. I think they're I could see them going on to raise a lot of venture money. I think they're doing very very well. Um, so so is a company like BZ. But uh, with all marketplace businesses, you have to look at how they're counting revenue. >> Yeah, but okay. Well, I what I will say a little bit on this is like um, Okay, so what what are these gotcha games, right? Like you you go on and you uh, you say, "Okay, I'm going to buy a pack of of Pokémon cards for 100 bucks." And you buy a pack for 100 bucks. I think Collector Crypt specifically says, "Hey, the the um,

EV of this pack is 98 bucks or 102 bucks." They like they tell you what the EV of this is. And so, they tell you straight up front that the EV of doing this is negative, but we are um, you know, you might win big. >> is negative just like trading perps, just like making a bet on a horse. >> know, I know, I know, but but but I'm I'm making a making this point, which is that it's like very It's not different from this other stuff, right? The EV is negative. The So, you spin, you get the card, it's probably worth less than you paid for it. They offer to buy it back right away right away. They'll tell you they'll they'll they buy it back at a 15% discount to what they they say it's worth. And so, they're saying, "Hey, we have

proprietary data and we take all these other data sources, so we say it's worth X." There's no real way to to understand if that's actually true or not. And then we'll buy it back at a 15% discount. Uh and so, like you know, that's how that these games work. And something like 99.5% of people actually just sell the the cards back uh every time. Um and like they are, you know, they're not taking delivery, they're not holding the cards. It's not actually like collectors, right? And so, like what is that What does that actually sound like to to you? It It sounds like a slot machine where you win something every time, right? It's essentially essentially a slot machine where you always make some amount of money, it's just EV negative, right? And so, I I these things are going crazy.

There's Triumph, there's um uh Courtyard, there's these guys, and and and they're expanding. They're not not just cards now. I think Courtyard is doing like handbags for women and they're doing all these things. But um it it's very to say like, "Oh, I'm excited about this, but like I don't like the trading stuff." feels very disingenuous to me uh because like they the actual user action is essentially the same thing even if you uh you could take a bag home or card home or or whatever else. >> Agreed. Agreed. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah, look at and this is the point this is the point I make, it's like the market We make these weird distortions like Wall Street's okay, but Vegas is not necessarily as okay. Well, it's kind of the same thing, right? Uh and and Robinhood's okay, but like uh FOMO and pump less so. So, these these moral kind of thing >> Gambling is not okay, but like lottery tickets that the state sell are okay. >> If you're doing 10x like if you're doing some complex like arb orb three like Leo and situation where it's going like three, four times leverage versus someone in Vegas parlaying like where's the difference like so I'm not I'm not trying to be a moralist here by the way this this is the nature of the beast I think the world is hyper financialized I'm a collector at heart so I don't know

I don't I don't have any insight into this it's just I do think that this is one of the positives of crypto it's like you look at a business like StockX collector marketplaces this is one of a sector that I had ranked pretty high on like oh it would be interesting because it it's always like where's the friction in that type of business it's like provenance and and like how fast can you settle and sometimes the collector doesn't want to take physical possession so this is like backus is doing this in liquor actually Teddy like uh which is really interesting like 80% of collectors don't actually want to drink it the bottle wine or the whiskey in the same way that like most collectors just want to hold and so crypto's really good at that like you an NFT is like a good artifact to facilitate this trading and

and you don't have to go through a centralized party like um you know like like this the this is a margin is your margin is my opportunity like if you look at the how much like something like StockX like takes it's it's massive it's it's it's it's a lot and so NFTs can really could collapse that um the issue though is verification verification is quite expensive to do with shoes sneakers cards there's a lot of counterfeits there's a lot of fraud so that's where most of the costs are for for for these marketplaces like you need to basically you need to basically create like legitimacy that it's it's like a good card right >> The ultimate debate on this on this I think is to ask the question to someone do hedge funds provide a service to the world

>> hm >> [clears throat] >> aren't they making markets more efficient >> right so then then so then does that okay that's the obvious one does that provide a service to the world is that a benefit to society >> yes >> I I think very obviously yes to be honest and >> I think we we should probably shouldn't go down this like, okay, what's more real or >> Dude, it's turtles all the way down. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think the the reality is is like there's different forms of of of everything. And I think, you know, we had this discussion around around memes earlier.

As much of anything, this has to do with like how people feel about it. Like people, if you remember, people felt really bad about Robinhood early on. They were like, "Oh, you're like gamifying trading and like you're this is gambling and you're making you're taking all this money from everybody." Now, most people are like pretty okay with like what happens on on Robinhood, but now they're not okay with prediction markets maybe or they're not okay with memes. And it's, you know, the human humans can get used to it. Anything and they, I think what the broader point is here is that like financialization has just seeped into every piece of our lives.

That is a reality that is not going away. If you're Some people think you need to regulate it away. That is probably not going to happen and I don't think it's the right way to think about it. But we have to be cognizant of it. And we have to just, you know, figure out ways to do things that are both productive and GDP positive and, you know, etc. while also understanding that things are going to, you know, some things are going to look and feel a little bit more speculative. There's even this, um, I don't know if people saw it from Betterment, this source like this graph that came out. I think it was yesterday. Where it was, I don't know, can I can I share? I don't How do I >> Oh, look at Rob stepping up as host number two.

>> Please smile. >> Oh my gosh. And this is where the rubber meets the road. >> Uh-oh. Uh-oh. >> They grow up so fast, Yana. >> Oh, love wrong tab, dude. Don't share that. Rob, don't share that. That's That's your That's That's the wrong tab. Don't share that. >> [laughter] >> I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You're >> Oh, you got me. I was like I was like, no, no. >> panicked. Rob panicked. >> [laughter] >> Rob panicked. >> If he Wait wait a minute. If he panics, it's because there's something there. We got him.

>> Someone asked me at a dinner last night. They said, um, "If someone walked up next to you sitting on a bench and said, 'I know what you did.'" What What is the thing that comes to mind? And so This is This is Rob revealing Oh, priceless. Priceless. Priceless. >> Anyways, there's this, uh, so that this graph was going around from Betterment last night, which is essentially saying that um uh, and this is about sports betting specifically cuz we have that's been obviously a big topic. But that the, um, uh, there 12% of all people, but 26% of Gen Z think said that they believe that sports betting is a, you know, a part of their financial strategy. And um, 52% of

Gen Z said that they, uh, had taken funds they would have otherwise invested in the stock market or something else and moved it into into, uh, sports betting. And I I think sports betting we all have like a specific view on like what it This is gambling and this is what it is, right? You know, etc. Um, but a lot of the other stuff we're talking about is no different whatsoever. And so the the even if we might treat them differently as much as capital is as the way we talk about them in DC, the way we talk about them with our friends. Um, and so just understanding that financialization is now just a core part of especially our youth and our young adults and our teenagers uh, and and figuring out how to build good product around that for them is is going to be important. That's

the only way to go forward. >> Hearing you say that, Rob, I feel like my conclusion is crypto's always been for If it's going to happen, at least make it in a more transparent venue. >> Yes. >> And unfortunately, it's like the flip side of that is the the lack of privacy makes it more susceptible to criticize it from the outside in. Whereas if people really understood how much investment banks, how much of brokerage accounts, like they're raking in money on unsuspecting retail. Like you could make the same argument. You just don't have enough information to make that conclusion. The The one thing I will say and it tied back to um clarity is tokens are not dead. We're going to continue to have tokens. We need better standards for market integrity and disclosures. And I'm I'm going to play

up the token transparency act because we have to, right? If these things are going to like the cat's out of the bag. We're going to have tokens. We're going to have 100 times more tokens in the next 5 years. Okay. And prediction markets are not going to go away. Well, we need to whether clarity passes or not, we owe it on ourselves to for the sake of this industry to just implement certain disclosures to focus on market integrity. Because if we do that well, then we actually have much higher probability of moving more more flows in on chain. Because there's a reason why public companies There's a reason why companies go public is because as much as you don't like 10-Ks and 10-Qs, like you have much more market integrity and like that gives confidence to market participants to put more money

at work. So >> Yeah, I I will I will say I 100% agree with your point that there are crypto gets a bad rap often because of the fact that we can trace these things on chain and it's actually easier to figure out what is happening and easier at times to also identify and stop, you know, the illicit activity. Uh be when at times like you can you can look at people that are on chain and off chain, uh you know, changes etc. That and there's there's a lot I can talk about in this this specific point that are doing the same exact stuff, but we you know, we point to the on chain thing because it's easier to understand. So there's a lot of that and it is this is a broader societal point of like the way that we are engaging with the world today. Uh and it

is not a crypto point and so we shouldn't um uh we shouldn't as people who are put here to be at the forefront and to kind of talk about and to you know, kind of push forward this industry. When we get so down on these things and we are the ones that say, oh well, this is like terrible and we don't you know, acknowledge that this is more about you know, what is happening you know, outside of crypto and in crypto and crypto just happens to be a part of that. I think it actually is is networks for all of us and so we we need to bring that context when when we talk about it. And now I will get off my soapbox.

>> You share your screen man. That's all we we one small >> step for one big step for empire in the crypto. >> I will never share my screen again. All right, I think that's all we got for this week. Anything else that we should talk about that we missed? >> Oh. Oh, stocks well, ladies and gentlemen, stocks are at an all-time high, you know. Stock market >> Santu, when do you sell your memory stocks? >> No, I mean I'm I'm as I said, I'm I was built for this. Volatility does not concern me.

>> If Micron went down 40% would you sell? >> No, I'd load up the truck, man. I always keep cash. I would load up the truck. Um >> Like is there anything that will make Is Micron a 5-year hold for you? >> Yeah, I think I I think Nvidia went from being like what memory is today where it went from being like super boom-basty to now being like the most valuable company in the world and that was because they just are riding this massive AI boom. I mean, not that we got earnings, but CapEx is up into the right. Um you have Neo clouds ripping and the the contracts there are getting renewed. The lifetime on on the hardware is increasing like no one would have predicted like, you know, like H100s would have this useful life.

You're just climbing and climbing this wall of worry and content of the week, go listen to that podcast from the Benchmark guy. It's like you're just not bullish enough on AI and and I think that yeah, there is I think overall the the reason why I think the markets are at an all-time high is like we had a really strong earning season. Like very, very, very, very strong and to your point around the midterms, it's it's not showing up in like labor shortages, cost reductions. It's like just companies are not hiring as much cuz they hired too many people after COVID.

But, it's it's pretty remarkable what we had just earning seasons and I'm I'm not I'm not doing too much in my portfolio. I did the work, I put in chips, I'm going to ride it out. Obviously, I monitor it, but it's um, these things have uh, locked-in business contracts for the next 3 to 5 years, which really dampens your downside scenario where like it reverses. Not to get too much into the weeds, but we should have Logan from Brex on he's much more closer than I am. >> I will I will say to that um, you know, you you you brought up the Benchmark podcast again for phenomenal invest like the best. One of the things I really liked at the end of that were um, one of the last questions that he was asked was

like you know, what are the debates happening internally right now among among the partners and and Benchmark and it was it was basically you know, I think what a lot a lot of us are debating which is just like where does value actually accrue over time, right? Like now there's kind of like a bunch of stuff working, but like you know, uh, do things certain things get commoditized? Do certain things work? Uh, and I thought it was sort of interesting how he was like, I just think everything works. Uh, which is that like every part of the stack will like go make a bunch of money and make a bunch of money. Yeah, crazy future. And he's obviously an incredibly good investor and incredibly smart. I also loved how he was like in 12 years I've only done 18 investments, which is like an incredibly

tough to do as a as a venture capitalist and be that be that kind of um, you know, sure of yourself. Uh, but it it I'd be interested in what happening in what's happening in the rest of those Benchmark um, debates on like who what the other GPs are saying because like that has to be like not what the consensus view is there uh, and that there's there's a lot of stuff not working. Um, but yeah, definitely listen to it. It was super interesting. My content uh, movie is called Tony. Tony Bourdain. I I grew up on Tony Bourdain. I like used to >> I did too. I've watched every single like Parts Unknown.

Every every >> Parts Unknown. >> Every Anthony Bourdain I can get my hands on I've watched I think. >> Yeah, he's so good. And they they made this movie about like a kind of a prequel to his his like when he became famous and became a chef and and all that called Tony. I thought it was super touching and and and and really enjoyed it. You know, it's not you know, completely historically accurate, but that's not the point of the movie. But go see it for sure. >> So good good movie. Good good enough to see. >> I I thought it was good. I I liked it.

It was August is sort of like a you know, unless you're into like Spider-Man sort of a weird month for movies, too. And so as somebody who loves movies as you know, I I thought it was great. So. >> Yeah, nice. Okay I I'm a sucker for old internet blogs. Like the old blogging days like you know, Fred Wilson had one like AVC and even before that. I'm a sucker for these old blogs. So there's a guy Om Malik and he actually passed away recently. So I saw a lot of people posting about him. So I went to his personal blog. Guy's been blogging for 30 years. It's just om om.co and he's got all these great reads.

They're like I'd call them two to four-minute blog posts. And read a bunch symbolic capitalism. We are living in Pinocchio's world. These are some of my favorites. Velocity is the new authority. The golden age of half-truths. And they they I went pretty This one's from 2019. So I went back a while just got lost in this guy's blog for a couple hours and yeah, I found it to be really good. So if you if you know anything about this guy, I'd love DM me. I'd love to learn more about him. He seems like a great fellow. Nice. >> How did you come like Ross Ulbricht? >> I saw people posting on Twitter cuz he just passed away. Um and then you know, people were saying he's got some of the best blogs ever written. Again, I have a I have a whole note in my Apple notes of just like

blogs that I like and if I'm ever ever bored, I try not to scroll and I'll just pull up a blog and read some stuff. So, yeah, added Ohm to the list. So, anyways folks, good Friday. Hope you have a good weekend wherever you are. Um we've got an episode with Hayden Adams from Uniswap coming out on Monday. Very excited about that. We just released a really good dashboard on Uniswap. So, go check that out then go listen to the episode on Monday. >> And then get your DAS tickets. >> Get your DAS tickets. >> Get your DAS tickets. >> God, I forgot again. >> Link below. Click on the link below, you know.

>> Cheers folks. >> Get your DAS tickets. >> Have a good weekend. >> Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell any investments [music] or products. This podcast is for informational purposes only and the views expressed by anyone on the show are solely their opinions, not financial advice or necessarily the views of Blockworks. Our hosts, guests, and the Blockworks team may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed. [music]