Crypto's Comeback: Are You Holding the Wrong Coins?

Transcript

All right, guys. Are you holding the right coins? What are you holding? Are you up? Are you down? We're going to talk all about it. Introductions, please, guys. Let's have some fun. >> Hey guys, I'm Kyle. Uh I'm an influence on Twitter. I'm currently at DeFi Llama. And before this, I used to work at a liquid fund known as Defiance Capital. >> Awesome. I'm Main Trader Main. I'm also a Twitter influence, third day trader, and I run a company called Breakout. >> I'm Dennis. I'm not a Twitter influence yet. >> Not yet. >> Uh but I am co-founder of Definitive Finance, uh popular trading terminal for on-chain tokens.

>> Lovely. Um all right, gentlemen. I think it's very clear to the market, to everybody here, that asset selection in this industry has become far more important. Uh you know, in previous previous kind of like cycles or bull markets, you could kind of just buy a lot of the narrative tokens or things like L1s, L2s, infra stuff, uh and do well. That's not happened. Uh for the first time ever, we're seeing specific assets, which I'll let you name, uh go to all-time highs and and do breakout trends uh without Bitcoin even close to an all-time high. So, we're clearly in a new regime. Uh asset selection matters more than ever.

Take it from there. Main start and let and let's get started here. >> Uh sure. So, I mean, I'm pretty boring with the coins that I hold. Like, I'm always primarily denominated in Bitcoin and ETH. But, I I do think one of the most interesting things about this cycle, we were talking about this backstage, is we now have a new way to value these tokens. We can look at revenue. You know, fundamentals actually matter for once. Like, any of us who have been around for multiple cycles, you always kind of wonder when that's going to happen. You're like, this is the time fundamentals matter. You were just saying, and then the dog with hat goes to $4 billion. You're like, okay, I guess not this time. But, I think the most obvious one is hyper liquid.

I think hyper liquid going to an all-time high in a bear market, being a massively profitable business that's extremely well-run, it's going to be the gold standard going forward for a new tokens like hey, you got to make money now for it to be interesting. Lighters obviously another one I'm looking at, but I'm primarily in Bitcoin. I have a pretty big bag of e-cash. I wish I bought it a lot earlier. I'll admit I got footed out during the kind of like exploit stuff. >> Yeah. >> Other than that, man, yeah, I'm like hype Bitcoin. I actually like ETH. As crazy as it sounds.

I know, is that disgusting? >> Wait, wait, wait, you don't like ETH? I mean, the whole point of the panel is to talk about fundamental coins. >> I know. >> Right, like >> So, what's wrong with ETH? >> Okay, so back to your original question. I think basically this cycle is underlying by revenue growth, right? In traditional stocks, there's two ways stocks go up. It's either earnings growth or multiple growth, and that's just how you value traditional assets that make money. I think it's pretty wrong to take that valuation framework and apply it on L1s cuz they don't these don't make money, right? They're not a Um you know, how does Ethereum Foundation pay for its salaries? They sell ETH, right? It's like directly opposed to the the token going up. So, I think it's

okay to be long L1s. Like I mean, like Near is a good example, right? But you kind of have to just approach it with an entirely different framework. >> Totally. >> Um then the whole revenue thing. >> So, you're saying that you don't think L1s need to make money to be valued at $100 trillion or sorry, $100 billion, $200 billion, $300 billion, $400 billion market cap. It's you know, [snorts] Ethereum doesn't need to make money. It does not need to be a part of that framework of like a hyper liquid or of another asset. Do you guys agree with that take? >> I think yes. >> Okay, why? >> I think like if you have a lot of businesses relying on the security of the chain already, then everyone will basically make sure that chain stays secure with a high price so it can't be

exploited. So just through that nature it should maintain some minimum level of price. But the moment that price, you know, craters, then suddenly all the businesses on that chain are like, "Oh [ __ ] we're not on a secure home base. Like we can't live here." >> Okay, so I like that take. With that lens, what is the most overvalued token right now in the top like 50? Or like >> Overvalued? >> chain or token. What is overvalued and why? >> Oh man, this is a tough one. I I want to say Zcash is overvalued right now. >> Oh my god. I'm going to I'm going to break out Zcash right now.

>> Okay. So do you not I I look at Zcash as like the Bitcoin trade over again almost. I don't know if you kind of view it that way. >> It feels too easy though. It's like we're we're all just going to size in at Zcash from $300 and see you at $20,000. >> Everyone has been shilling me Zcash. I hosted a hot pot with all the liquid funds. Everyone is >> Yeah, but nobody owns it though. That's what I'm trying to tell you. >> I >> No, but they don't own enough of it. >> Zcash is a token born out of pure fear, you know? Yeah. >> Fear? Yeah. Okay, why? >> Because of this quantum risk and you know, the people that don't look into it more technically think that Zcash is the one all solution for quantum resistant Bitcoin, but Bitcoin is a piece of

software, too. One day it can have a hard fork and literally be quantum resistant as well. Um nobody says that [ __ ] part out loud, you know? >> Yeah. So are you short Zcash? >> I'm not short. No way am I short right now at this part of the market. >> Okay. >> Yeah, I don't think you want to be short anything. >> Yeah, I think we're pretty early innings. Uh >> Funny you mentioned that. So today like this morning I checked prices are down, right? And I think the number one fear people have is whether this is an echo bubble cuz we've seen it before in crypto where we have like one to three months of outperformance.

>> Um and then like everything just goes crashing down. So I love to know what you guys think. Like are we in an echo bubble? >> I mean I think just cyclically looking at Bitcoin where we are, um I'm bullish. Second, like usually okay, midterm year Q3, Q4s generally a good thing. I think from the four-year cycle perspective, we're in that kind of window where Bitcoin generally is going to bottom. I think the scariest thing, I guess, is everything outside of crypto. >> Yeah, great. Oil, macro.

>> are going crazy, the stock market's crazy, the AI trade has been crazy. I don't know what Bitcoin looks like in a like broad-based bear market in equities equities which people keep saying is coming. But, I mean, I don't know. Like there's so many bond experts, you know, armchair on Twitter right now. Like, well, the 10-year is at this like things are going to come crashing down. I'm like, the 10-year like the bond's been going like this for years and everything has continued to go up. So, like, does that matter anymore? Are we just kind of >> maybe the this the title of this panel, are you holding the right coins, is important because while all that has happened, we've seen this kind of what has now feels like a consensus basket of assets near Zcash, Hyperliquid, lighter, pump, couple of these others that have

bottomed off the lows and have done multiples in the face of rate hikes, oil at 100, Bitcoin kind of still chopping around, kind of bullish, you know, it had like that monthly close that you said is kind of like the official mark in sand. But, I think it's particularly interesting to with what you're saying to think about, okay, how do I position it in this market to kind of have a strong conviction in a pair of assets or a set of assets that is almost irrelevant to Bitcoin because I think that's kind of where we're entering. But, I don't know if it's ever going to be irrelevant, but I don't know, just yeah.

You know what I mean though? Like there's assets that are just that have outperformed that are relevant to all of that and Bitcoin. >> Yeah. So, I mean, this is a topic that I find very interesting cuz like as an analyst, your entire like career is built on valuation and looking at this. So, my framework is simply you need to have exogenous demand that is not cyclical and not coming from crypto. And these are the assets that have done really well. Hyperliquid, Trade XYZ, right? Um everyone was like, "Oh, equity perps are just like a When When Trade XYZ launched, people were so suspicious. And now like they're like their their growth is like incredible, you know, um and it shows that um equity perps have uh are here to stay. You see like Bloomberg terminal, they integrated

Hyperliquid perps uh on their terminal. You You see like people checking like Cerebrus price over the weekend when Sam Altman came out to say like I'm >> I'm sorry to interrupt. Hyperliquid is like very basic. Exogenous Exogenous demand, buybacks, revenue meta. This is like bigger than hype. Give us some other ones. >> Venus. I think Venus is a good example. So like >> Kind of basic. Give us a Give us some good ones. >> Uh Edge token. >> Yeah. Wait, which one? >> doing buybacks as well. Um but Cards as well doing buybacks and burn. Um just starting as well. And then Lido. Aave also does buybacks.

>> Um >> Why does buybacks work so well for some of these tokens and not for others? >> Yeah, and like if you look at Yeah. >> I like I I know it's a casino coin, Rollbit, but like >> That didn't work out. >> Yeah, yeah. >> buying back so much of the token doesn't seem to matter. >> It's signaling, right? It's um people want to know that the token uh people the team is aligned with token in some manner. Like Uniswap, right? Uniswap, they can do buybacks, but everyone knows that profit flows to the equity side of things and so token just doesn't do as well as it could be. Whereas like you don't have to do like Hyperliquid 90% buybacks as well. You just have to show the people that you're not going to rob, you know, you Pump Fun. Pump Fun doesn't do as much

buybacks as Hyperliquid, um but like you know, they're still doing well. Yeah. Yeah. >> Are they going to do an airdrop? >> I don't think so. >> [laughter] >> I don't think they're going to >> I don't think so, either. >> And I don't think there's going to be a season 3 for Hyperliquid. I don't think there's any need There's no reason to do any of that. So like what we're getting at here is like that this we've entered a new era of evaluating what assets to own. We're talking about buybacks, we're talking about um revenue and where that comes from and how to think about it. And so, what you really kind of get to you guys is we have, you know, however many 10 of thousands of assets in the crypto land and there's, you know, millions launched every month on pump.

There's like a bucket of investable assets if you believe what you're saying. And so, I want to impose my thesis and get, you know, you know, thoughts and feedback and break it down. The barbell. Store value assets, Bitcoin, Zcash, ETH, maybe maybe not. I don't really put Solana in that. I don't really put Avalanche in that. Sui, any of that stuff in that. And then you got revenue producing businesses. Hyperliquidator, Venice, uh Pump, Etherfi, Aave, Morpho, etc., etc. I mean, the list goes on. Near, etc. And so, it's like very different assets.

>> Very different purposes, outperforming everything else. Everything in the middle, L1s, L2s, infra, interrupts, ZK, yada, yada, yada. Gaming, just completely cooked. Wrong, right? What What am I missing? Why am I stupid? >> Yeah, so I think at different parts of the cycle that barbell will look different. So, right now, there's actually a consensus theory around a lot of liquid funds and traders is that there's just too few tokens to invest in that you can actually hold for a long time. Um and that basket is so small right now. But, that's because we're pretty much past the bottom of the cycle and we're so early, right? Um and we're waiting to start going for these like sure shots with the buybacks with the revenue metas. Real businesses finally

getting a bid. But, when you get later into the cycle and, you know, the macro starts looking really good and maybe we start rate hiking, stuff gets crazy. We're going to see maybe 10x more boots here of tokens we've never heard of. And then, suddenly that barbell doesn't move as much anymore and everybody is buying whatever is marketed to them and very greedy. Um so, you have to shift your asset selection later in the cycle. But, I think right now, everyone on stage I think has the same bags. Yeah. >> It was like everyone has the same bags. >> Yeah. And there's a reason, right? Like, the IQ test is like early in the cycle, you hold these bags that will make it to the next part of the cycle. Um and later in the cycle, we're all going to be buying like dogs.

>> to be buying garbage. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, but there is the argument as well to be made like, you know, as we are still early in the cycle, I think now it's as high RR as a spot possible to take those bets cuz we have so much upside coming from what we believe from that barbell. >> If Bitcoin is going to reprice higher, everything reprice will higher with it. Right now is the best time to be kind of as risk on as possible. I kind of operate of the model like I'm as risk on as I can be right now and as we get deeper in that cycle, I'm actually de-risking a lot of my, you know, kind of further down the tail bets.

I mean, they said everything I wanted to say. >> okay, so we're talking about and I think you're totally right with regards to this narrative game that happens in mid to late cycle where like you just get these runners that do 10 100 X's in a short period of time and you're sitting in a revenue generating business like Hyperliquid and it's at 325 and you're like, holy [ __ ] I'm rich. But, then you just missed a 100 X on like the next AI thing. And I think that might be this Pearl token. People are all about this Pearl token. I keep hearing about it in Singapore. What the hell is Pearl? Why should anybody care? Should we buy it?

Should we sell it? Should we ignore it? What is this thing? >> You can't ask me, man. I've ignored it this whole time. You know, I I think I'm failing the IQ test. Like, everyone comes up to me and like, do you own Pearl? And I'm like, no, I have to go reach the safe trade. I have to buy on this sketchy exchange. Why would I do that? And then they're like, oh, but the guys behind it are so smart. You know, it was in a Galaxy Infrence report when they talked about how Pearl the bunch of crypto projects that are doing AI related stuff and Pearl was there. And I was like, "Oh, man, I'm like totally missed. I'm totally sidelined, man." >> I don't know, man. I I I think it's too big brain for me. I'm kind of on the same page as you.

I don't get it. Like I I was talking with Ansem just like an hour ago, and he's trying to explain it to me. I was like, "Yeah, I'm just I'm not interested, though." >> it's a liquidity. >> I think there's a playbook right now where people are looking at successful AI tradfi companies like Open Router, and trying to apply it and spin up the formula on crypto, and then >> you know, maybe add some tokenomics to it to get attention and do the marketing. I think Pearl's probably done a great job given that we've been approached multiple times at this conference for it. >> than the last cycle's AI tokens we had, where it was just like basically like a chat with a token attached to it.

>> Decentralized inference, and it's like it's it's not cheaper, it's not faster, and it's not more intelligent. >> But there's a token attached to it, and there's a token. >> Yeah. It's like, "Okay, well, okay, so." >> It's crypto x AI. That's all anyone needs to hear. >> Yeah, but I think there are better crypto x AI tokens out there. You You can have decentralized inference, but you could have like inference marketplaces. Now, that's a very big narrative that people go off on on Robinhood, you know? I don't know if we're allowed to show like microcaps, but there are some really good like >> Yeah, Orbiyo or something. >> Yeah, Orbiyo, Surplus. >> I just invested in a company called Anseed. They're They're They're building a peer-to-peer inference marketplace as well, and that That's going to happen on chain.

>> So, like in the AI realm, there's like a lot of other ways to make money, but there is consumer demand. Like people are actually paying for inference credits, just like how people are using Venice with their private models as well. >> And you know, they're using Near Near AI underneath. People don't really realize that quite yet, but Venice is powered entirely by Near. I think Near's a sleeper. I mean, obviously like have a bag there, but >> It's also up like 4x, so I don't know if it's that much of a sleeper anymore. >> I just don't think it matters. I think Maine's right. I think it's still just like you got to I like raise your targets.

>> So, to that end, right? There's been this kind of cyclical nature to crypto markets for the past handful of, you know, cycles where you want to buy early, you want to sell high. Now it seems like we're getting a point where maybe we're risk getting to like escape velocity where the cycles don't matter. The bear market was truncated, 55% down from all-time high. You start to look at something like hyper liquidity cash, all these coins and just say like, "I'm not focused on just holding this for the cycle now. Like I believe in hyper liquid as a company. I'm buying this like I'm buying >> Tesla. And I'm just holding like cuz that's what Merten does, I think very well. And I think it's a super cycle, man. Yeah, it's like he's like, "I believe in these coins and I'm just going to hold them for a very long time.

I'm not really worried about the ebbs and flows." >> why is that, man? What Why do you believe that that's happening? Because there's a secular force that's happening right now. There's a couple of them that are happening that are kind of taking away from the broader cycle. You know, I have a couple ideas, but I'm curious why you think that >> Well, I I struggle with this because I came to crypto as a trader where I'm like buy low, sell high. Like I'm in this to make money. And I've hurt myself a lot because of that because I'm so focused on extracting value in the moment. It's like, "Dude, if I would have just held on to the Bitcoin I had years ago, I would have like we'd be doing this on my yacht." You know what I mean? But I was like, "Oh, I was trying

to time the market rather than just have that time in the market." So I think it's going to be very interesting to see. I would love to see us break out of this, you know, bull market, bear market, four-year cycle kind of repetitive trend and we have these kind of asynchronous rallies in coins that are just good. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. I mean, I think that like what I was trying to get to there and I totally agree that holding, I think it's a holder's market, not a trader's market. I think you can get in in and out on perps and do well, but then you get days like today where like if you're if you're long perps on like any sort of leverage that's high, you're getting just crushed. And so it's it's a holder's market. Like if you have good

entries here, it's kind of like you're just hanging out, you know, it's just another day in the books. What I was getting at though is that if the tokenization thesis is correct and trillions of dollars of assets come on chain in the coming years, who are the biggest winners? How do I allocate my portfolio in this market today knowing that there's going to be trillions of dollars of tokenized equities, T-bills, bonds, money market funds, and all this all this capital that's off chain on chain. Think like think about the second and third order effects. Goes into DeFi, goes into this. If that happens, that happens there like who do I bet on? How do I allocate capital? How do I express the max bullishness on tokenization? Is it ETH?

Is it AAVE? Is it UNI? Is it Chainlink? Is it Oracles? Chainlink? How do I What is my max bullish tokenization bet? >> I think that's the million-dollar question that hasn't been answered yet. So, the default answer right now is Backpack. Backpack is the default tokenized stock play, but like there is no clear like DEX or like a Uniswap equivalent for tokenized stocks today. Um you could long the chain that's being issued on, but as we all know chain economics when it comes to these kinds of stuff aren't the best. It's like It's like longing Arbitrum just because Hyperliquid has a bridge to Arbitrum doesn't make sense, right? Uh so, currently the only thing that exists right now is Backpack just because they're offering tokenized stocks on Solana. They were the first

one to do SpaceX. SpaceX did really well. Their their tokens are also up like 6x since the bottom. >> Uh but it's it's kind of a open-ended ans- uh question right now cuz like no one there's no real clear winner yet. >> I agree. >> That's why the question is a good one. >> There's a historical precedent for this exact pattern. So, if you think about the dot-com boom and when we had the internet and how it transitioned over to like mobile applications, social platforms, like what internet company did you invest in that's like doing really well right now? There's no like internet hardware or protocol company, but the companies that are doing really well right now are like the application layers, the platform layers, right? So, if you look at how crypto is evolving, we had our infrastructure protocol

renaissance with ETH and like all these network tokens, and now we're starting to see the applications starting to capture most of that revenue. Like Pump doing so well in in kind of their token price because they're now able to get that revenue and put it into the buybacks. So, my bet would be that this time you should be investing in the applications that have the most users that are making the most value out of those users. So, a lot of trading applications >> it. I agree. I I agree that the fat protocol thesis is kind of moving towards the app side, because the apps are the ones that generate the revenue.

The chains are kind of becoming like just more of like a foundational layer, and part of that barbell concept is like, "Look, if you're not Ethereum or Solana even, you could you put in you're kind of like in this place where you don't make much money, but you also don't have much of like a moneyness property to your asset." And so, you're kind of like, "Why would I buy you over Ethereum, and why would I buy you over Pump?" >> Chain doesn't matter anymore. No traders care about it. No investors care about it anymore. All they care about is who's using you? Do you have a user base? Do you have sticky revenue?

>> Look at FOMO, right? FOMO is like um the breakout app of this cycle, and like they they're not situated on one chain. They allow you trade coins on Solana, uh BSC, Robinhood, base, all of this, and it's like and they're winning. And FOMO's the winner, right? You don't long Solana just cuz FOMO is doing well. You don't long >> No, yeah, like you don't long SOL cuz Pump's winning cuz Pump could leaves leave. >> I don't know. It's just weird. >> I mean, that's why chains are not >> No, but still though, Solana could be a multiple trillion-dollar blockchain, I think. And same with Ethereum.

>> I think Solana had that breakout last cycle because they had the meme coin traders there, and was the application layer because all the meme coins were paired with Solana. So, you in order to even participate in the casino >> Right. >> chips were sold. >> It had that property of money similar to Ethereum with the ICO era or in the DeFi summer era, very similar. >> But nowadays, your chips are not Solana anymore. Your chips are USD abstracted away on the application layer. You never even think about what currency you're spending or what chain you have. >> interesting point.

>> Yeah, well, it's lost its I mean, both ETH and Solana have Ethereum luckily has been ossified much more into a it has the credible neutrality of being the most censorship resistant base layer in the world, right? And that was always something that that that they got kind of pushed back on. And Solana had that had kind of like this like moneyness of this casino trading and this, you know, LP pools everywhere for all these players. And so, they're in a tougher spot. I mean, they're both are I think are in a in a interesting spot, but I think Solana's in probably a bit of a more difficult spot than Ethereum currently.

>> I I I think Solana's a lot less interesting this cycle than it was last cycle. I think people's targets on Solana like, I don't know. Like I I talked to Ant small time, he's like, you know, thousand dollar SOL. I'm like, I don't >> And some say that? >> Yeah, I'm like, I don't think so. Uh I don't think so. >> I think Pump Pump has absorbed all that Solana beta that otherwise would have >> rather own Pump than SOL is what you're saying. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Absolutely. And I >> It captures almost all the value coming into Solana. >> Yeah, and that's the best way like, I'm not a meme coin guy. Like I too old for the game, but if I want to long that degeneracy that's going on, to me right now the best way to make that bet is

Pump Fund. Interesting. Um just kind of coming to a slow wrap here. Like should people be like not not, you know, everyone's got their own portfolios, right? But when you're thinking about where we're at in the broader sense of the cycle, I think asset selection, you know, is important and there's a lot of sectors and there's a lot of things that we talked about here, but like just like zoom out here. Um are we are we thinking that we have like it feels too consensus that we're just saying the early innings of the bull cycle. That's what I'm getting at.

Like is that really just where we are? Feels too easy. >> It does. And that scares me a bit cuz everyone's along the same thing. Everyone's up like 80%. >> your tweet. >> taking profit, man. Everyone's >> Everyone's long. No Everyone's up and no one's selling. >> Yeah, we're all at the same party. Uh no one's gone home yet. I mean, I still think like even if we were to get like another lower low on Bitcoin sure and it goes to a 40 or 50,000 like >> 40 or 50? >> It's like but we're in value. Like this is value area relative to every single cycle that's happened before this. It's the same pattern >> from a time and price perspective. So, purely from that sense, I'm bullish.

Like even though, you know, maybe your entry is not going to be you know, the best like I think Bitcoin is like 25k right now. Last >> 15k was the bottom. We traded up 50%. It's kind of where we are right now. >> You know, and I think when we had that dump and it went from 25 to 19, maybe that's what we're going to experience now. We hit 87. We're going to have some pullback in the 70s. I still think it's good value. I still I'm like allocating time in my opinion for the next few months going into the year. >> I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. Like I think people on stage feel like it's easy mode because we've been locked in. We check the charts every day. But in reality, like probably 90% of who was trading crypto last cycle is

not even here yet. Um everyone got pulled away to trade the AI trade >> equities. >> Um and then they're still trading that. It's still doing really well. So, who's giving crypto attention right now? It's kind of the last Japanese soldiers here on stage holding the best coins. But eventually, crypto will be attractive again, right? Um it will become more mainstream and real retail as the next cohort will arrive and things will get a bit more crazy. It's going to go into outperformance like trade a mate. >> I I think a lot of people missed the bottom. Like a lot of people were waiting for like a Q4 >> agree. know, four-year cycle low. And >> Well, let me What's What's today?

Today's the 8th. This was what, 2 days ago was supposed to be like the infamous prophecy, right? >> Yeah, so the 4chan prophecy. >> So, I There's argument to be made there. I'd be curious to get you guys' thoughts if we have time. Like, do you think, you know, we have these diminishing returns in Bitcoin, obviously, cycle over cycle. The bear markets have also been more mild. >> This, by far, assuming the bottom is in, is the most mild bear market we've had at 50-odd percent off the high. Does that translate to a more aggressive bull, in your opinion, or no? >> No, I think Bitcoin's going to probably exceed all of our expectations just because >> Um for me, personally, I've transitioned Bitcoin as like my speculative asset to the asset that I just rotate my bags back into to park. Um I think you're

going to start seeing some of that because there are outperformers of Bitcoin now, like Zcash, where people do want to chase that narrative. But, at the end of the day, like Bitcoin is the debasement currency that everyone wants to rest in. It's not going to be US dollars. >> That's how we used to do it. You didn't even have stable coins back in the day. >> There was no stable coins. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um so, to to just give a take, so we had a top on apathy. We had an early top on apathy last cycle. Last cycle was hardly even a cycle. I mean, it was just It was It was pretty rough. Bitcoin hardly made all-time highs. ETH hardly made all-time highs. I mean, Bitcoin did better, but and so, we kind of bottomed in a similar apathetic way. We got that crazy crash in

February. That was actually like the the most vicious move that we had to handle. We had a couple like attempts at it, but it was almost like this apathetic bottom, as well. Um you know, it was kind of like, "Ah, it's not bottom. We're going to wait. Ah." And And then, I think we're firmly bottomed now. And so, I would just expect the inverse to the upside next time, instead of the downside. So, I'd expect parabolic blow-off and parabolic, kind of you know, re- you know, rebuild. Uh that'd be my take. >> I think you get the parabola if the Fed ends up doing something quite surprising or unexpected.

>> You mean Trump in the last two years of his presidency going out with a bang trying to make everyone rich? >> Because >> Yeah, I could see that happening. >> Bitcoin pump brand. >> Sort of captures like a crisis chaos trade in that regard. >> Because people are like, well, I guess the USD is just going to be mega debased all of a sudden. You kind of have to rush for the exit there on Bitcoin um or entry, I guess. >> In that regard, but um if, you know, the Fed kind of keeps it in line and quite predictable, um we get probably a smoother macro, maybe a soft landing, and then you'll see it melt up. >> And that's that's my bet.

>> Guys, any audience questions? Any questions on coins or market? No? >> No one wants to shill their bags on stage. It's crazy. Maybe we are >> I want to know the guy with the 100,000 followers. Show your bags. >> Yeah, I want to know the coin that the poop guy was on. >> of the guy with the poop face? >> I want to buy that [laughter] coin. >> All right, guys, give it up for your panel. Thank you so much, guys.