CRYPTOCURRENCY TALK: TALOS, PUMP, ETHENA, HYPERLIQUID - 0xResearch and Friends

Transcript

Hey hey hey. Very good. Dance pop. No, feeding the

ducks is done. What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Zerx Research live stream. Um, Ian, what the hell were you up to? What are you talking about? Did we not just start? No, we've been waiting for you. Let me hop on. It's 10 o'clock. I want to hop on for a second and say that Ian was eating sardines for breakfast when I talked to him right when I woke up. I was I was busy just tucking into some tinned fish, Boach, if that's all right with you. It is not all right with me. That is yucky.

You should share with the classian to be honest. That's kind of rude. That's more bringing up sardine for everyone next time. That's a low point even for the British breakfast. Yeah, I know for a fact that he actually was just searching for his Chyros research t-shirt and not Yeah, very very good. Um, okay. Today's I'm gonna have to do all of the most of the talking. I can't just rely on Danny because I threw this on his calendar in the last 18 minutes. Um, I want to talk about a few things. Let's start off with Ephina because I assume Teddy I assume

Ian posted the slop thread and not you. Yeah, any slop Ian any great content um is probably me. Ian, do you want to give a short rundown of your slop and then we can talk about it or how do you want to do this? Yeah, I mean talking about my slop sounds really good. One sec. Danny, did you know that there are actually two Chyros researchers? Wow. Really? Yeah.

Ian and Teddy, you can't say which one is better. We can't, you know, we can't say that. Is this like a Is this like a token and equity thing or No, it's not. It's copycatting. It's like a US and Mexico thing kind of. All right. Um, there we go. This is a slop account. Let's run it. All right. Yeah. So, I mean, we just kind of noticed like um well, first of all, I guess like last week I' read this um report that like ASXN had put out which was on kind of everything Athena and then obviously when like funding rates pick up um the um

yield I guess that can be generated on like uh USD picks up a lot. So you see like kind of an influx of people uh minting US and so that's going to be a like primary revenue driver for the protocol but also uh we kind of noticed it was like one of their five key things to get their fee switch activated. Uh the other four being um four 250 million. Yeah, there we go. Thanks for thanks for the assistance there. Uh 250 million.

You said what? I noticed your voice started to crack, so I had to come in to help out. That's just That's just the sardines in my throat. But yeah, so the $250 million accumulent supply of USD. Um and then the other two that haven't been hit yet is uh sex adoption. So right now only three of the five largest centralized exchanges by derivative volume are integrated. And then uh the last one of course is like the spread between other DeFi benchmarks. So the main ones they look

at to my understanding is like um what SUSDS is paying out. So essentially like what is the new version of D uh or SI in this case. Um and then also like what's the supply side APY for a uh and then also like what's the you know like 3 to six month like treasury bill yield. Um but yeah the spread is increasing across all of those. So I think that that's one that can get hit. But um I thought the really interesting thing in that in that slop uh post was the second slop chart which shows the change um

in TVL of like uh USD and then uh USDS. So essentially like obviously Maker Sky always becomes like a really popular asset when everything else is not doing great because like they've essentially got the best um proxy I'd say for like the risk-free rate on chain because they have so many integrations like RWAS and kind of some other unique things they can do to generate yield uh from like a protocol standpoint. But I thought like the trade-off there uh was pretty interesting which you can see kind of again and again in the chart. Uh both of them obviously just going higher and

higher as like DeFi overall grows. But um yeah, it's I think it's a good sign. One thing I wanted to ask about is I think that had the SUSD um TVL in there. Would it be better and this might be a question for everyone too just to have the USD TVL because technically Athena is still I mean like from a Yield Chaser perspective obviously yes USD is where you'd go but from just like a purely Athena revenue standpoint I guess they don't care if people don't stake it's probably better for them. um they built the treasury with um regular USD, right Ian? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I mean to my understanding, yeah, because they take that the 10 bit fee on mints, so I mean that that should be what it's in, but I'm not sure if they've done any like treasury diversification um or anything like that, but I think I think you're right. I um I meant to write about Aphina and USD this week and I was thinking of comps and there really aren't that like maker is one I think a very obvious one but apart from that like I don't want to write about fracks as a comp you know.

Yeah, it almost seems like just vaults rather than stable coins would be in the closest comps. Um I would say like I don't think there's another stable coin that kind of is positioned like they are. Um, I don't even know if Yeah, it's also like um interesting because like it's not like you can just take the idea and then launch it on a new chain because there's so many pieces that are actually needed uh for Athena to like you know be what it is like you need like the um like top tier people that are actually executing all these uh like trades on these multiple venues and all these other things. You need the attestations.

you need like kind of the legitimacy there. And then also like they're doing it with multiple assets already. So it's not like they need to be on Xchain to do this. So like, you know, it's going to be kind of hard to to copy that. I actually don't know if anyone has like tried to compete with them in that exact same regard of like um tokenizing the basis trade. Um I saw a few coliseum hackathon teams going for Ephina but on Solana. Um but yeah I agree with you. I feel like it would be very difficult to get that off the ground. I mean you need like first of all you need Pendle to grow the way that Aphina grew. Um and then you also need if contacts

um which I imagine is mostly like impossible to get. I I actually don't know how useful of a product it would even be if it wasn't in like the sex integration is the main thing there, right? It's nothing else. Like you really need to get those contacts and then work through It doesn't matter. Like I I bet it could probably launch on Salana and do at least relatively well. But um like I think they I don't even think it matters of like where the um like like it can be like chain agnostic anyways. If you could mint like USD anywhere, that's that's great because like they're going to be doing this with like, you know, uh, Bitcoin, Ethereum, and Salana, and then I assume

like whoever else ends up joining that the ranks there. Um, maybe probably Hyperlid is my guess of like someone who would be able to join the ranks there. just um another thing that was interesting though like I noticed that um Hyperlid is no longer listed on Athena's website in terms of venues where they were um uh like the venues that they've been utilizing. uh which is kind of interesting because like by volume at least I'm like that has to be top five uh in terms of like per volume where they can actually like execute these uh kinds of trades like so I don't know I don't know if you guys

heard anything about that. I don't know if it's like a UI thing they're cleaning up right now. Um it was listed on it previously. It was, but I don't even think it was it was listed as a one of the venues of Hedging, right? It wasn't listed or anything else. I don't know. I heard rumors like of their of Ephina um well, they bought the ticker USD or um and that they were going to launch USD margined her on Hyperlquid. I'm not sure if that's still the case because they have Ethereal building on Converge obviously and they have like a massive deposits program. I think it's like 500 mil USD and those are the XS

SNX synthetics guys that are building that. Um, but that's one of the things I like about Athena is like they they seem relatively agnostic to who they support, who they don't support. Like they're just like we want to be on as many chains as possible, as many lending venues as possible. We don't really care about like ideological picks. Um just like whatever can make US useful uh while obviously like not bringing massive risk into the protocol and collateral.

Something kind of cool for uh Athena right now too is like finally this Ethereum move has made ETH um funding rates like consistently positive for the first time in many months. Um and so like not only the increase in open interest lets them play around a little bit with different sizing on those positions, but like material funding rates lets them be much more competitive on yield, I think. Um so like being able to expand outside of Bitcoin and into Ethereum and Salana more for several months is kind of a cool Yeah. One thing um guy brought up when I had him on the pod was that they well two things. First of all they are moving off of

um staking yield on Ephina. Like it's now like sub 5% of the yield that they get. Um and that's purely because they don't think it's worth the incremental risk and duration and um complexity that it brings. Like what is it 2% or whatever it is like E staking yield? They're trying to move off of it. And the second thing is I don't know if you guys remember there was like a massive um liquidation cascade a few months back. Um they actually ended up making money on that. He he dives into how they end up making money on that. But like volatility is also like apart from funding rates becoming positive, they

also make money on volatility because sometimes they are the on the correct side. Um but I guess that's mostly with shorts. So I don't know what happened here. Yeah. Yeah, I saw that they were like um I think they're able to capture like 700k of protocol revenue, but I I believe like the total amount that could have been captured if they were to unwind at it all like it in like a much shorter uh time duration I think would have been like in the millions. But yeah, it is kind of interesting that that revenue source exists. I think there's a really good post by uh Connor, their head of research on it as well, but I think that was also in that report

I mentioned at the beginning. But I think like them getting off of LSTs makes a lot of sense. Um something else I thought was really interesting right now, it's like even though like it's above six billion, like 2.4 billion of that is still sitting in um stable coins right now. Like that's not even all like fully deployed. Um, so like a third of all of their the capital backing it is like still in stables, which I think is kind of kind of interesting there. But like only ballpark looks like just under 400 million is actually in like ETH LSTs right now. So I think that's I think it's the right choice there to kind of like get out of there. I don't think it's worth like the incremental risk either. Like I do think there's been

some improvements since I guess like the last big blow up we saw with like LSTs and like liquidation cascades with all that was probably like FTX. Um but I think like there's some improvements that have happened around that like with um you know a referencing like the actual market uh or the the value of these tokens rather than like the market price of them because the market price is obviously going to be dependent upon like liquidity and these aren't necessarily the most liquid things despite having the word liquid in their name. Um, so like there is going to be someone who's going to be able to like unwind those and take like whatever duration risk they need, but yeah, I don't think it makes sense for them to keep those.

Danny, you wanted to There we go. Yeah, I was going to say, um, they're going after tickers on other exchanges as well. USD on the NASDAQ. Um, you guys have thoughts on the treasury company? I guess they're doing a spa deal with TLGY Acquisition Corp. Um, but it's going to be called Stablecoin X with Dicker USD. Uh, $360 million pipe deal with onethird of the capital coming from like locked discounted ENA tokens and then the rest being in cash.

Um, I don't know. What are you guys thoughts here? Like we just mentioned a bunch of things that are seemingly positive, but is getting into the treasury game like does it tarnish the brand image at all or is it like go ahead and get get that money? I I see I mean I'm not like genuinely excited about these treasury companies by any means. Like I don't think we're doing something really beautifully innovative. Um, but at the same point, like I could understand why if everybody else is doing it, you'd be like, well, people know what they're getting into.

It's like something we see all of our competitors doing and many of the top 50 crypto. Uh, so it's like I could see why and I could see why investors would push for it. They're like, it is an opportunity to get a lot of supply out of the market from something that everybody's doing. Um, would it be dumb not to? Maybe. But at the same time, I don't want to um be like Sailor P talking about how he has invented something that's truly one of a kind and like never been thought of before.

Yeah, I think we'll see more and more of these. Um I think Tao just had one or like some form of TA related one came out. Is that is like ENA and TA the lowest market cap things that have had them yet Danny or do you have you heard of I think so. I know that we've got soul XRP hype su I don't know if I've seen anything smaller than like a tow or an ENA. I guess the the the positive case you could make for the token is that they're using this vehicle as like a buy up tokens and and lock them away in

this treasury and you know then they can sell they can sell the shares on the open market but the tokens stay locked. So I guess um maybe that's a pro a positive kind of like forward catalyst for the token if you kind of take away some unlocks from the chart. I mean at the cost of retail you get is this the only case where like well I guess they can still go up. Ian, you probably have a better point. Please continue.

No, no. I was just going to say actually like need to chew over it more. I feel like all the treasury company things in general are like um still don't know where I completely stand on those. Like I feel like there's probably a lot more than meets the eye for these things because they seem I mean everyone kind of talks about them as if like they're like a you know a short thing like it's like a lowrisk play. It's financial innovation and so I don't I kind of agree with Teddy's point like I don't think like these are like you know the most beautiful things man has ever created in financial markets. Um, yeah.

What did you say? Anyways, this is good, guys. As long as you as long as you're issuing shares and not like going further and further out the risk curve trying to find any way to like lever up, I think that for the token itself, it's better. um and it is a supply sync in that sense, but if you like are trying to continue to raise preferred at worse and worse terms, then at some point it's probably not a supply sync and we see it go the opposite way.

But um okay, Ian, do you want to have a chance to speak or should we just move on? Move on. Okay. Um very good. Teddy, moving forward, can you raise your hand so Ian can let you speak instead of you just here? All right, very good. I want to also talk about pump, but I'm afraid Ryan Connor might get a little bit upset, but it should be fine. Um, I posted sloth this morning. Let me find this.

Um, pump revenues are down market share-wise from the professional podcaster by the way. There we go. Bam. Pump revenues are share market share of revenue amongst launchpads is down from 78% to 14%. Um, let's spons. This is just daily stuff. Um, and Radium's at 12%. I'm I'm also seeing I also want to get you guys' take on this.

I saw MLM posted about this this fund that put in 140 mil into the pump ICO and they've like sold um 100 mil or so over the past three days. Um, I'm curious like a that's the team's fault in my opinion. Do you guys think they just don't have like some social vesting contract thing? Um, and then B, where does Pump go from here? And I feel like that's more of a Danny question.

I'll take the first one. Um, I think if you give people the opportunity to buy at 4 billion and it launches at at six billion and then you have zero day vesting, I think there's an incentive to sell there. That might be a hot take. But I think if you are at a higher price than what you got in at, you know, like no like investing of any sort, it totally makes sense to dump there. If if like you're able to put on that kind of trade in that kind of size on that sort of a duration, I think it makes sense. Um should they have done better like vesting schedules around this? Maybe. I don't know. Like we still

haven't even heard from the team. We have no idea what the team thinks about any of this stuff. We have no idea what they're doing about buybacks. They Well, yeah. I mean, he said he was going what was the he I can't remember the phrase. He said he was going some sort of mode, but I mean that was um that's that's all we got. That's what we're working with, you know, like and then like you know I'm sleuththing like Soul Scan just like refreshing this and have a bunch of like Arkham alerts to try to figure out what they're doing. Um it'd be nice if they just kind of came out and said what they want to do. uh the zero day vest could be just like an interesting way for them to get money quick and like you know

they're still only like slightly below where they like TGE that and um I think like that just kind of makes it look like every other TGE we've seen in the past call it two years roughly like the only one that really stands out to me is like hype. Um, so like I don't know. We'll we'll see if the team gives some signal and then I think like if the team gives some actual signal and some good comms on like what their plans are. Um, investors I think would know how to adjust accordingly.

But I think right now it's like everyone's looking at that chart that you just shared, Bach, and I think there's kind of like, you know, like trying to underwrite their their investment. It's kind of hard to do so when you're losing a ton of market share. The team just raised a billion dollars and they're completely silent. Like I think people want more here. Yeah. I think if you can put in 140 mil exit in two days and get 50% on it, like you'd be stupid not to sell. Um. Yes. Correct.

I feel like I made this point a week or two ago, Boach, and you were like, "No, man. Who's going to sell for plus 50%. That's so [ __ ] stupid." But here we are and I'm sure some of them have Ryan was in your head. Yeah. I mean I think I agree with Ian there like completely if you're I mean you can imagine if you're in massive size into this thing with no lock up and you just made you know eight to nine figures on this one literal you know two to three day trade basically right committed the capital and then got to exit at the open of the market. I don't see why you wouldn't like that could be your returns for the entirety of the year or the past few years potentially uh given how I think we've seen how some funds performances have looked uh in

recent years. They've they've been struggling I think along with plenty of retail folks in this market. So that doesn't surprise me at all. Um, but I'd also agree with Ian like I don't know it doesn't we knew what the headwinds were, right? Like the timing of like Bonk kind of and Radium sort of taking over the market. Um, it's a risk. I think you kind of have to figure out like how you want to price that potentially. I mean they've taken market share in the past few weeks like month. So is that something that lasts forever or can pump kind of like fight back and and recapture? I think one of the ideas that I've talked about on like what's a step forward for them is you know we see that it it seems like

whatever bonker radium like this strategy that they've affected is getting the mass slop industrial complex token creators like to create on their platform rather than on pump. So if there's a means for kind of pump to recapture those people or just like turn on their own slot machines like you just need to have the tokens on your platform. I know like from a data perspective the amount of tokens getting created across the platforms has been basically flat. Like it's we basically just went from like 40k being made on pump to now it's like 30k on bonk and less than 10 on pump. So if they need to just turn on the token printer like maybe that's one piece of the puzzle. Um but they have a token now. They have a ton of cash. Like incentives people love

incentives in this industry. I mean, he's he's doing um you know, blank mode and it pumps the chart like when the buys go in, but maybe maybe there's more to be done from an incentive game perspective to like get more people going. Like Bonk, I think the big thing is that Bonk kind of has the flywheel right now in terms of like if you look at the metrics, more of the volume is there, more of the tokens are there, more of the tokens that are going up in like the past, you know, few weeks are there. So, it's like if you're a trader, you want to trade the coins that are going to go up. Um, yeah, to be fair, graduation rate on both, I checked this morning, it's around the same but it's similar. Yeah.

Yeah. It doesn't really matter. Like, if everybody's talking about bon coins, um, it doesn't matter what the graduation rate is. Did you guys see that tweet of it's this guy? Um, and he was like, "Yeah, I ran it down to zero, but I ran it back up to 22K." And then he like writes up a thread about how he just like mass launched tokens, bought 10%. And then just sold them. And then he was like, "This is how you can make it all back." And somebody was like, "You're just rugging people." He's like, "It's not rugging. I'm creating tokens." He's a creator.

Oh, so yeah, Danny. Uh, first of all, I agree with you. um just because your points are good, but also I'm not afraid to disagree with you on this because last time I was just horribly, horribly wrong. Um I was just going to say I think that Danny's right like a degenerate idea. I mean it's a degenerate platform, but like the degenerate idea would be coming up with incentives to get like the better creators to launch there by saying, "Oh, if you hit certain metrics, we'll buy X% of your token or we'll reward you." in this means like I think that there's pretty cool ways to create a flywheel um in that arena um with the billion dollars in cash that they have

and multi-billion dollars in their token to kind of at least motivate people to launch better tokens there and then it doesn't matter if they have 100% of market share as long as they have um kind of mind share from the larger traders too. Yeah, I feel like and they've been maybe teasing some ideas here. Like I've seen have if you guys have seen like their CTO thing where they're like redirecting the fees from tokens to like the kind of if there's like a new community lead or like a new kind of like top creator for a coin, um they'll partner with them and then like redirect redirect the fees at that. And I also saw, and I don't know if it's real because I didn't actually look, but

um people commenting on like Alon purchasing random meme coins in like varying amounts. Um maybe to Teddy's point around like if you like invest in and buy the coins on the platform of the big communities, like maybe that gets people excited. Um but yeah, I I agree in both directions there. I think the other one like that I mentioned before is like they could just make their own token printer like just to you know create have a team that that spins those out um and just run it yourself. That's always an option. Um but they have to well I guess they don't have to sell to make money, right?

There's fees now. They don't have to sell because they already make money on the trading volume. So, like they could just create them and potentially even take away some of the like dumping on people's heads risk of the mass token farmers. Yeah, that's a good point. That's something Ryan always brings up. He's like there needs to be more curated like approved tokens. Um, I like it would just be so much if Pump launched a coin that was what was the most recent one like let's say I don't want to give any tickets whatever like Ian Unsworth token versus like it's going live now. I'm watching it.

Some random creator created Ian Unsworth. probably buy the pump ones just because it's I know that they likely won't sell although I'm not sure. It's interesting because like some competing platforms have tried to launch on this concept of you know all the tokens that launch like instead of us just grabbing trading fees and like dumping the coins you know we'll give I'm I'm trying to remember the names of some of the platforms that have launched like maybe Flaunty on base is one where it was like you know all the fees earned can then be like basically sent to buy back the token and and burn it or whatever. Um, it's it's funny because those never worked because

they just didn't have there wasn't like an existing network of people trading them and it didn't play out. But like if you're pump and you like already have this brand like you might actually be able to just run a model like that and uh it could like reignite the excitement around trading the assets. Yeah, I agree with that. I um this is kind of not on the list of things I wanted to talk about initially, but I saw Espresso launched their initial coin offering at 400 mil FTV vested one year. I'm curious if any of you guys are interested in this and if you guys remember what Espresso is now doing.

Ian I'll be I'll be frank. I like my understanding of espresso was rooted back in like 2022 or three. Um so I did not even know necessarily what they were up to today. Uh, I think the big question mark for me is like and I ICO here's the thing is like I like this trend back towards sales and ICOs. I think they're awesome. Um, this might not be the one for me personally.

Uh, given that I couldn't even have told you before this morning asking in the Xerx Research Telegram chat what Espresso does today. Um, but I don't know. The the valuation and like being pre-product and like an kind of an unproven thing entirely feels feels kind of shaky to me. I don't know. What are you guys thoughts? Um, yeah. I mean, I don't know if they have a working product that people use. I could be wrong on that, but um I think 400 million seems a bit steep, right? Um they've raised a lot of money as well.

Like I think they've done all the way to a series B. Surely they've raised probably close to probably probably just under a hundred. So yeah, they raised 30. Well, 28 in series B uh back in 20244, early 2024, led by and yeah, the Espresso combo back in March 2024, they returned the fund.

Yeah, incredible work team. Hats off to the team. Um, but like in in like in all seriousness, I I don't understand I I don't understand that I have never understand or understood the value prop of a a shared sequencer. Um, like if you were an L2, it's like don't you want to have full like sovereignty over your ordering, your sequencing? Um, I don't completely get why you'd want to hand that off to someone. What were you going to say, Teddy? They're apparently not a shared sequencer anymore. I see them getting very mad about people calling them that on Twitter pretty often.

So what do they what's the product now? Um so they have a question on their frequently asked uh list that says some chains may use espresso as a decentralized sequencing layer but this is not a prerequisite of leveraging espresso. It's like a confirmation layer I guess is now what they're doing. So I think for like crosschain transactions they provide uh confirmations. Um, they said that's still technically a shared sequencing layer. What does that mean? It's like a bridge but not even. Yeah, the Espresso network does not yet support sophisticated crosschain building to fulfill user intents. It's planned for the future contingent upon demand.

Here's the struggle that I have is I think uh I mean I don't know it sounds like a lot of pivots are just happening in the history of this one but like the biggest thing is I think they kind of had a vision around like rollups and like playing a part in what that future stack looked like. Um but it seems like that vision of rollup future has kind of changed over the past few years quite a bit. Like I think a large part of the industry has completely trans transitioned back away from that. Um, and so now like they're maybe trying to find a right fit there. I think Ian's point as well is like maybe the bigger kicker here is like you've done a bunch

of rounds and raises in the past. Like maybe this is like a very stupid and like kind of silly retail view, but like I'd like to do the ICO at the first raise, the initial round at a much lower valuation for something that's like an idea pre-product very early stages rather than at 400 mil after all the investors got to do multiple rounds at lower valves. Dan Daniel if I may I have one take on this is even if the market hadn't moved away from rollups which I think you can kind of take the stance like rollups may not be have become like the best but they're still relevant like base arbit

these are still relevant and we still see like um new rollups launching more relevant like I would say Robin Hood is a more relevant rollup than what was previously launched or like what they will launch eventually anyway We found out that a these L2s make a lot of money from sequencers. So like Ian said, I don't know if this is affected by decentralized sequencing. I imagine that um Espresso would end up taking some cut um of whatever sequencer revenue like an Elto makes. So why would an Elto give that up? Um, and I think the main thing here is that people actually don't necessarily care about credibly neutral interoperability. They

mostly like people mostly use intense now. I only use intense. I don't know if you guys also only use intense, but like I use Dbridge across um mainly those two and I can do whatever I need to do without some like fancy whatever confirmation layer that's neutral and incredibly neutral and everything has to work perfectly. No, like this works well enough. I send money on the other chain. Somebody fills me. Um getting you're letting another the solver is Yeah, but it just works like it's sub one second. Can you Do you guys remember when

you were rushing to deposit into Anchor from Salana and it took you literally three days and you had to go on the wormhole discord and beg them to release your money, you know, and that was like professional. Um, but people just want easy UX and Intense do that. You don't really, nobody really cares about fancy [ __ ] middleware. And this is something Daniel Smith eight months ago when he would still talk about Ethereum. Now he doesn't even mention it. He would always say this thing. the entire like Ethereum new protocols landscape. This was agon layer, espresso, Astria, whatever is

like dominated by like we're creating infrastructure for the sake of creating more infrastructure on top of it. Um I think espresso is one of those things now. Yeah, I don't see the future is that but for a time being it was very very difficult. I think that's that's totally right take for like things like this and we'll probably even see it with like L1's like any sort of infrastructure like you're never going to be like the primary spot of value ac I want to echo box point like I just I

think product just matters more than ideology and it to all the points you made about like you know incredibly neutral this that or the other thing like you're right I just people just don't like just let me swap my thing or trade it or bridge it across like you mentioned with intense um and make the product experience better than it's been in the past and so I don't know I think if if something here hinges on the fact of it being like this ideological design choice rather than like a product or user focused one. Um, I' I'd be concerned, but also like I feel like what we've seen in the rollup market as

well is like base running on a centralized sequencer operated by Coinbase. Like people don't the market clearly is telling us that they don't care that much about this like neutrality aspect. Like if stuff's happening on base and it's high value and people are happy to go ahead and throw their money on there, then the market is is making a decision about that point. Yeah. And like if you want neutrality, you can just use ETH mainet. And I find that people who want neutrality really only want like a few things. They want to be able to send money from X to Y um and mostly deal with stable coins and borrowing lending. And Ethereum has all of that. So like you said Danny like if you're

bridging over to an L2 you don't necessarily like you you accept that there will be trust assumptions um and like potential centralization at the because you need the speed and the efficiency and whatever like you need the activity um and I I I don't know if it makes a lot of sense to like try and solve for something. I will say one thing is I like that Ethereum and L2s are kind of coming um they're kind of working out now like for a few years it was like we got a lot of Clockworks research got a lot of [ __ ]

about L2s but I think objectively we were correct a soul went up Corellians and E was down and sideways um be a lot of the L2s that came out were just generalized random L2s versus now I feel like we're like Robin Hood's L2 that will be coming eventually and whatever they're issuing stocks on um and markets on arbitum. So that's one um converge etc I think will be relatively interesting like bringing over institutional capital and real world assets into L2s kind of makes sense. I know there's this argument like you want to be close to other assets. I think just like we think that uh

L2s want control of their sequencers, I imagine institutions want more control over the chain as opposed to whatever generalized other L1s have. And I think L2s are probably the best way to do that now. I would say it would probably be L1's. And I'm sure there's like a Cosmos Maxi will be like, "You're an idiot. We've done this on Cosmo SDK like eight years ago and you'll be right but like L2s just work better now. Um so I am I guess my end here is that I'm happy that we've moved away from the espresso style infrastructure plays as well as the other L2s um that weren't very relevant and Ethereum is kind of coming more and more together. I don't know about the

valuation. I haven't looked into it. Um Ian made a very good point this morning which was like you can quote REB as much as you want but they're going on Squawkbox and yelling about Ethereum and I feel like it's difficult to value one or the other just because the market's still kind of small. A lot of nonsense coming from me. Please give me Yeah, I'll add one point. I think like with the ETH sort of reaceleration uh POV that like the Foundation is taking, you you'd probably have to be a little bit more short like infra for roll-ups than you would have been prior

to this like change in approach, right? But when when ETH was like, "Okay, everything's going to roll-ups, like we're going to do millions of roll-ups, all activity to roll-ups, like and then of course we need some interop between them." Then like awesome, like full steam ahead. But I think with the more recent like let's bring some, you know, faster blocks, small, you know, bigger blocks, faster blocks, whatever, higher uh gas to to mainet and have this thing, you know, actually advance in scale and size and throughput. Um it puts a little bit of like a short on rollup infra.

Yeah especially again it can be solved so quickly just by using intents. I think crypto is the only industry too where some of this like very very niche middleware gets brought up with like hundreds of thousands of followers and like does a public token raise and expects people to understand like what they're buying. Um, and I think that's part of the issue, too. It's like you can't expect just hundreds of thousands of people to be excited about your infrastructure that is so far above their heads like that. And it's I don't know, it gets marketed more than maybe it should. And that's probably why

people are a little put off by um some of that stuff rather than just building a product that sure it makes money and at some point people are going to be interested because it makes money, but they shouldn't be excited about the product that they don't understand. Yeah, I would agree with that. Does anyone I guess like last thing on them then we can probably segue away from them because I don't think they're too interesting. Um, how much were they raising? Sorry what? How much were they raising in the ICO? Uh, I don't know. It's on Kaido. That's why I wanted to bring it up. It's like Kaido's first ICO launch. Ah, I think it was only four mil. Like a small amount.

Okay, that's safe. Very good. That's very good. Would you say that changes your investment fees on this Ian? Not at all, but I was more worried about it not getting filled. Okay. I think it' just be kind of you don't want projects to completely fail obviously but like and I wish them all the best but um anyways I was looking at some data around the uh the phantom integration for hyperlquid um with like I didn't realize that there's a website flowcanxyz that you can see like um the revenue by people that are using builder codes for hyperlquid. Um,

sorry if you didn't want to segue to this B. I just had it pulled up already. I really want to segue into anything hyperlquid related. Let's talk. Um, if you guys had to guess how much revenue Phantom has made from this so far on I think it's looks like it's 1.4 billion dollars of volume they've done through the Phantom app, which is pretty crazy. Um, yeah. Yeah. How much revenue do you guys think they've made since they launched this a couple weeks ago? Uh, probably like 600K, 700K.

Yeah, you're spot on, Bo. That's really good. 727. That was that was really good. Um, it's kind of surprising as well because like there's only there's 15k users and I correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like Hyperlid uh last I heard like didn't have actually a ton of users um accountwise. Am I wrong on that or did they have like you know hundreds of thousands of users? My understanding was like they had they had like a like a relatively or relatively large I guess crypto amount of users but like relatively small amount of like um consumer product users just because it's like it's perpetual futures. There's not a lot of people these but

before then Smith beats me with a club. When we say users we're talking about wallets. Yeah. But still, it's like I think with stuff like this, it's like you're probably less likely to Yeah. Um Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have eight wallets, but yeah. Um so it says Hyperlquid. Uh based on their like dashboard, it has 570,000 users. Um okay, that's a lot more than I thought. Um but like when they did their airdrop, how many wasn't it like 30 30k users?

Anyways, I think I think 15K users just from the Phantom integration on Hyperlid is like pretty good for a product that's been around for less than a month. Um, and yeah, $1.4 billion dollars of volume through through a wallet mobile interface is pretty crazy. Like that's that's really nuts to me. Well, James Kristoff is 100 to 200 million. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's true. They didn't account for the JC coefficient. Um, can we get some annualizers in the chat?

Are we annualizing the 733K? Well, I think even better than that, I think we should annualize their last week, which is said to be their best week ever. Yeah, exact. Let's Let's find their best one hour of revenue ever. Let's annualize that. Let's do the last day where they made 175,000. 175 times three. And holy [ __ ] they're printing, dude. Uh, so it actually has um, let me share this in the chat. This is super interesting. It has their top users. The top user has done $42 million of volume through the mobile app with uh, 1,200 transactions.

Dude, the craziest thing about doing it through the mobile app, too, is you're like very limited on like what you can do. Like you can't add margin like Yeah. Like you can't pick a certain leverage. Like you have to either do two or three or four times. you can't do like 2.5 times leverage. So, they're just trading in massive size. Bro, that's so funny. I I love this industry. So, which it is very simple, too. Like, I think that that's exactly what Phantom should do. If people want more customizability and to be in control of their $10 million position, just use Hyperlid interface. But if you're okay with kind of just ease of use, why not?

If you're okay with no c like a very simple front end and you want to pay 0.01% on open and close use [ __ ] phantom, you know, but this is something we talk about a lot. It's like these types of guys who either don't understand like they're just super rich and they don't care or like they're super rich and they just don't understand still who make majority of the protocol um money. I think for every protocol it's probably like like it's just one guy who rich beyond anybody else can think who's just like putting on 42 mil.

Well, and like Coinbase too like their their biggest winners are people using the swap function that are okay paying like two to three% on their transaction so they don't have to swap into US dollars before they buy another token. Dude, it's all exchanges. I don't I when I first started when I first got into crypto I was like why the [ __ ] am I like paying this amount of money for because I I thought I had like the pro for Kraken and then it like depending on what interface you're on like unless you're on pro.craken or kraken.com you get 3% or like 0.1%.

It's ridiculous. It's amazing that we scare people away from this industry. One one thing that I've said before is that crypto is just you put you know those um currency exchange desks at the airports where they we just put all of that on chain and then just annualize it and say, "Holy [ __ ] this is only at 14 PE. We need to buy this now." Right. [ __ ] Yeah. I mean, those are good businesses. Um all right. Last up, we did everything I wanted to do. Um, I think if we don't do Talos, Riley is going to kill me. Does anybody

have any thoughts or do you think it's okay that I mentioned Talos multiple times? I think you should bring on um uh the offchain labs guys and let them talk about that honestly because I mean I think it's a lot of excitement around it because just I think it's like one it's like they're actually trying to do something legitimate with it. I think you saw a lot of like um obviously like there's like a whole kind of AI agent hype cycle last runup specifically on Salana. Um, and then I guess there was some stuff like that happened over on base too, but um, this is like I mean I actually don't completely understand what it is. I think I think I actually need to kind of hear from the offchain labs guys um,

what it is and what it does, but it sounds like they have some like big plans for it which is cool. So I think it's definitely worth checking out. It is cool. Uh just as a I probably should have done this way earlier, but I need to also put this like on my disclosures and stuff, but I am I don't get paid by them. Um but I am on their council, so technically I have motivation to help them. Um just like for all listeners so that you all know.

Um but yeah, it's backed by off I'll talk about talk about a bit. So onchain labs is offchain labs is ARM that um wants to build applications on arbitr which I think makes a lot of sense like I think if you're an L2 labs team you should probably focus on building like I I don't think enough people realize how much Solana and the Salana Foundation supported teams on their chain and protocols on their chain either through capital um or just like shouting people out versus on Ethereum I feel like it's always been kind of like a no know to be like, oh, like we we want to be as neutral as possible. We don't ever want to support. I mean, they just start like the foundation just deposited money onto

a which has been live since 20 17 as ELAND and then they rebranded, etc. And they've had four product iterations since then and then they just deposited recently. So, I think I like what Arbitrum is doing in terms of onchain labs. Um, and yeah, the way that they explained it to me is it is, you know, how goat was fake where it was like, you know what I like people were like, "Oh, this is AI." But it's not. It's just like Andy tweeting. Um, this is not fake and it's supposed to do treasury optimization and deposit borrow trade on arbitum. I I need to

have offchain labs people on or onchain labs people on to talk about it properly maybe for the next live stream but uh I don't I think that's if you guys have any other questions I can answer them but so yeah is this is this AI going to have like complete control to just trade on chain like is he just going to fund up a per wallet and lose it all or that's the that's what technically I I'm just pulling up the questions that people ask so people don't think I'm just to be fair it is Riley who has been asking us for three days but um from what I understand and from what

I've been told it makes decisions but initial stages the council has to approve it so it can't just say I'm putting on $100 million on Pangu right now on short can get blown out. Not financial advice. Um, so it is like goat. They're filtering him in this. I don't know. You said it wasn't like goat, but they're going to be filtering the AI. I think it's more so it needs to be approved, which I think makes sense for all AI products. Danny, do you take Claude or whatever? Do you use Chat GBT mostly or Claude?

Uh, I've been using Chat GBT more recently. Okay. Um, do you ask Chad GPT something and then immediately take that answer and slap it? Like you do it immediately? Yeah. Yeah. Frequently. Danny's raw dogging it. All right. Anyway, this has some guards initially. We'll see how it goes up. Uh, goes We'll see how it goes. Not how it goes up. To to that point, I'm going to play the other side. is I think it would be cool like the inverse of what goat was where we kind of had to trust that like Andy was prompting the thing and then giving us the results. Um if

there's a way to just like do that prompt and answer like you know save that into a block so people can see that on chain and like read that off like yes this was the output of the recent decision to do XYZ and you can verify that. That's cool to me. That's a good idea. I think right now, actually, this is something I like. They don't want to do it on a governance form. They want to do all discussion on Twitter, which I think is cool because I feel like nobody really goes on governance forms that much except for Ian apparently.

I was going to say Ian does for sure. Yeah. So, it's not just dominated by nerds. We're going to do it on Twitter where it's more fun. Um, that's a good idea. It should probably be posted on blocks. Um, Twitter's good though. Like I think that makes sense too, right? If you want to do some votes and some polling in a broader manner because I would agree like I'm sorry but I'm not looking at any of your forums guys. Unless I'm, you know, unless I really need to read a post.

That's completely fair. And I think this brings me to one thing that I want to talk about. Somebody asked this question. They said, "How do you guys do research?" Um, and I wanna I want to get the opposite take, the various takes here because I feel like the research that Danny does versus the research that Teddy does versus the slop that Ian does is probably going to be quite different. So I I like a want to understand how you guys use AI day-to-day apparently just asking and then copy pasting into research reports or furthermore um what is like your main sources and what are you guys mainly looking at these days in terms of like where you're trying to find

interesting attractive stuff. I can talk outside of crypto for one second on how I like for research and using AI um like if I'm working kind of in an industry that I don't understand I do like using like catchy deep research to write me a report so then I can go down my own rabbit holes and that's kind of like my introductory lesson is like okay it's going to write me a five or six page report and give me a whole bunch of sources that I can then track down and like ask people much smarter than me questions and I think that's like the best way to be a research analyst is to ask someone smarter than you to explain something like asking dumb questions um usually is the best way to learn something. Um

yeah, I'll I'll agree and also disagree with Teddy. I do sort of the opposite thing, but um I do find myself prompting quite frequently, but I actually don't like for the sake of just like learning or finding new information. I actually don't like the deep research tool because I think that the outputs are too long. Like I think oftentimes I have more pointed questions like I want to understand something small at first and I don't need 6,000 words to like understand one thing. Um, but I think the point is the same and that it's like very easy to go from like zero to like 50% understanding on a subject by kind of like you can like step your way through the questions as they pop up of like I don't understand this thing like

give me the quick overview and then kind of walk down the line of like okay what about ABC and XYZ and um can make a lot of progress that way. I think within crypto though it's like I don't know probably the bigger parts there is like like what are other people thinking about looking at. I think often like just digging around in like data that's maybe not surfaced to the crowd is where interesting tidbits can be found. I think uh we have like a pretty great data team at Blockworks. So, um I don't know. Sharples has been my guy at least for like tacking on to new trends. Um seeing things in the trenches that maybe others aren't aware uh of are happening yet. So, kind of a multifaceted answer.

I think it's and that that's probably like a realistic answer is like you kind of have to be doing a bunch of different things. Yeah, I agree with all those. Um unfortunately I actually do think there's a lot of helpful stuff like in governance forums a lot of like details um like for like new developments at least are happening with protocols and other things uh research wise a lot of it's just like onchain flows of some sort and I don't think like AI is there yet. I think like once we get like an AI agent built into all like the block explorers and stuff like that I think it's going to be really helpful.

Well, I think Arkham actually has like a relatively good um like transaction analysis tool uh where it's like you can have it analyze a transaction, tell you exactly kind of what uh contract it flowed through or interacted with, where like the funds originated from. Um but then in terms of like AI for actual like research, I I think it's just helpful for learning mainly. Like I don't think like I think like you can clearly tell like the copy past to slop. um like that popped up all over Twitter. Um AI, but I think we I think there's a good question. I just saw in the chat.

Picacio, can I um uh so Footer XVT question for Picacio. If Superman was Turkish, what would his civilian name be? It's a good one. I'm I don't know. I'm not Turkish, so but I'd be curious. So, I don't know what the hell he's talking about. Um, what would his civilian name be? Like, it's like it's Clark Kent in America. So, like, you know, what would his name be? Uh, apparently it would be Typhoon. See, now that's what the listeners tuned for. They they don't care how we do our slob.

Very good. Um, did you guys actually see that did you guys see that they like test I don't Oh, Bach died. I don't know the uh spec like the exact specifics of this, but I guess for that new movie, they like did some test audience showing of a scene where he like saves a squirrel and the test audiences were like upset. Like why would he waste his time saving a squirrel? What a pointless like they were mad about it. Like what a pointless waste of Superman's powers.

And the director or like the producer or director was like no I have to keep the scene and it's so good. He needs to save the squirrel. That's everyone who is sidelined from ticker peanut. Feel like Yeah. What are you doing? I don't know. I still haven't gotten used to the Apple trackpad if that makes sense. Are we doing an hour? I actually watched the Superman movie last night and was wondering most of the time who actually enjoys this movie. Um, but there's a lot of people giggling behind me, so apparently apparently a lot of people do.

So, what honest take, what do you think? It was bad. I mean, like, not like I wasn't miserable, but it wasn't good. It was industrial slop. Yeah. I don't I don't even think this is a hot take anymore, but I feel like, you know, we had whatever it was, the Avengers, and um all this all the superhero movies just feel like, you know, industrialized slop farming at this point. They like perfected like the easy script model and then they just like ship a couple of them out every year.

Yeah. Do we have any other interesting questions in the chat? Let's do 10 minutes of question answer. Yeah. Drop your I put questions in there. I think food really kind of set the bar. No questions. Yeah, we got one that says, "Who are the mouth breathers that buy XRP? Uh, they love Ripple ABS dumping on their heads." I got to wonder though to that comment like if you bought XRP the past couple years, you're up like 10x. No. Yeah it's you outperformed ETH by a wide margin. So, I don't know. That might just be a little bit of a copy cope right there.

Did um did XRP has XRP outperformed Bitcoin since XRP launched? No, I don't since it launched. I don't like if you were let's say hypothetically you were a fund named Arrington XRP Capital, you dropped the XRP from your name. Do you think if you would have stayed like Arrington XRP Capital and like your whole fund was just XRP, do you think you'd be the most the best performing liquid fund of all time? Yes. Crazy. What was the Did XRP do an ICO? Back in the day. Like way back in the day.

They must have. Yes. Right. We're looking it up. We're going to find this out live. The thing with the ICOs is hilarious. Like there's still like Do you guys remember Gollum? There's like an Ethereum based. There's a couple like Ethereum based ICOs that like have hundreds of millions of dollars of like Ethereum still. like they've had like, you know, years and years and years of runway and it's just kind of like sitting there. That's a great Do they have a token?

Yeah. Yeah, they have they have tokens. Um Gollum has a token. Another one is um uh uh ticker RLC. R as in Richard, L is in Lewis. C is in Churchill. What the [ __ ] did he say? Like I can't find um details about the sale price, but I am finding ROA ROI from listing price 0.53x Bitcoin. So um it's indicating to me that you would have underperformed Bitcoin still, but it is apparently still a 600x from the ICO. So it would have been a good outcome

regardless. Yeah, it looks like it listed at like a hund00 million market cap and I'm sure there's some delilution in here too, but now trading at a $27 billion. Oh, here here we go. Uh, four I hate reading numbers like this. Like 4,000 of a dollar. So like what a 4/10en of a penny as ICO price. So yeah, the ICO XRP ICO guys are doing pretty good and they're getting upset with us because we brought up XRP. So if Come Rocket outperformed, then we should als

didn't didn't you just have a recent report on that buck? I wrote about the come rocket potential. Yeah, I'm actually on the council for that one. I should probably disclose before It's funny. I actually wrote a 5,000word report on memecoins last year. Um, and a lot of them did quite well. So, I don't know. I don't know if you have to sell all of your Bitcoin and ETH. That feels a bit drastic. But there's certainly been times captured some upside regardless of like the I don't know perceived scamminess of the thing.

It looks like James Kristoff has a very Jamesi I think the best part about this question is that it's two questions. Is Talos considered AGI? Like crudely? I think the second question is for you Ian. First question. Ian, can you answer him please? Is it considered AGI? And if you were to answer it crudely, how would you answer it?

Can we get Onchain Labs to comment? I'd like to know say I think that's out of my above my grade right there. Like we know we know Zuck has been hiring for Super Intelligence Labs at Meta and I'm just I'm trying to understand if if Talos is like in the same we're talking like same ballpark, right? Like they're competing actually. Yeah, I I pinged on think I'm going to have them on next week or the week after maybe and then we can talk about it there. The It'll also generally be good to get another arbiter episode under the belt. I feel like we we haven't done arbitum in a while. Only like I do all of the Ethereum ones and then Danny does like the fun ones. Not that Ethereum isn't fun. I love Ethereum.

I've done Ethere We've done Ethereum content without you. I get Markon and I just let him go. I just you just crank him up and you let him go. You get Mark on and then James Kristoff pranks out in the chat. Hey man, you brought up Master being a safe play. They actually every time I bring Mark on and then we talk ETH, everyone gets mad and says, "Why are we talking about ETH again, man? Come on. I'm going to crash out." And then you come up to me and you say, "I have to do all the ETH episodes because Danny won't do them." It's like, "Well, you keep telling me not to."

That's true. Who Who gets upset? I think that's just Ryan and all of his alts. Yeah, actually, he must be like 10% of our views right now. I mean, he keeps asking about Drift. How many on Slack said, "Can you talk about Drift right now?" No, I can't talk about Drift. How many screens does Ryan work with on an average day? How many what how many screens monitors does Ryan have? I think typically zero because he's always on the train asking asking me, "Hey, can you can you do this real quick for me? I'm I'm not at my computer."

He does the same for me, dude. Ryan [ __ ] Connor, man. He goes on a walk and then he'll message 45 times saying, "Hey guys, can you take care of this?" It's honestly quite a powerful position to be in. Can you imagine? Just a buck and daddy. Yeah, I actually saw a tweet from him that said his most important part of due diligence is going for a walk. I believe that Ryan Connor I believe that though that's kind of based, but I feel like that makes sense. Like sometimes I'll get this idea and then I'll do a 15 minute walk and I'm like, "Well, that was [ __ ] stupid. I probably shouldn't have done that.

Something about going on a walk, it gets the it gets the brain flowing. Although, maybe we should. Kagar talks about this. Just FYI, everybody look it up. I was going to say on the drift point like I mean it pumped the other day. Was there news? Is the market pre is the market predicting some news? We didn't do BAM. Yeah, we didn't we didn't cover the whole reason it Well, we talked about it for an hour yesterday. saw it. Yeah, I was going to say that's that's the whole reason like those everything kind of started moving when like that um that news came out essentially because it allows for um essentially yeah cancels to be prioritized other things like that. Um I

mean you guys should just have like Drift on honestly and let them talk about it too like because I'm sure they've got some other things they're quite excited about but maybe have Ryan on there too. running cash flow. Connor seems to be quite the drift bull. What I find interesting is that when I'm looking at the drift chart and probably would find this in other charts as well prior to announcements is that the announcement of BAM did not come until yesterday morning US time, but the token pumped the evening beforehand. I'm not like I'm not saying it's drift guys, but it's just like you know it's efficient market hypothesis. We're getting this. Yeah, the market is really getting efficient, especially around Treasury codes as well. We see those stocks really like to pump a day or two before the announcements come out.

Yeah, Orion has a great piece on Drift if anybody's interested. It's on the Blockworks Research Portal. Um, Danny, I'm gonna pull up. You're going to silence me for speaking out. No, dude, you can speak as much as you want. Can you be explicit in nature? Yeah. Drift. Oh, I um doubled yesterday. He's coding this right now. Tripled yesterday.

Jarvis Drift. I tripled. Yeah, like for the whole exchange or for the token? For the token on Binance. Okay. At the announcement. Right after the announcement. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's interesting. I maybe the other question is like did any other tokens see some movement off the BAM announcement because it's like um it doesn't feel like it's confined to Drift right?

I think that's the most obvious one though because like the whole thing with Salana has been like decentralized NASDAQ and the only thing that's really taken off so far from the financial standpoint has been like launchpads and and memecoin trading for the most part. But if you want to have like an actual real perpetual uh like futures exchange on or like any sort of club really on like the L1 itself, you need BAM. Zain Zach's also moved actually yesterday. I I didn't listen to bank stuff at all.

I was way above my head. I'm too stupid. And like James said, is this just nerdy [ __ ] we're talking about? Like Ian, can you give me like five bullet points on why BAM is good for stuff? My there's a whole blog post on it, but I mean like um five bullet points. Um let's see. pull up the blog post and read it off. Ian, I was gonna say like I think you can just go read the whole article, but I think like the really interesting thing that came or or listen to the entire live stream they did with uh Lucas yesterday. Um I mean, but I think the really interesting thing was in that blog post at like the very end there's

like that tidbit around them saying essentially like um all revenue from like the judo block engine and bam will now go to the Dow. like no more labs um foundation split and I think that's like a huge market catalyst. Um but yeah, sorry block you're you're catching me. I'm a little fatigued right now. Um I could do one bullet point. I could do m um better ordering and execution. I I do think I'll throw my hat in the ring here on an attempt. Maybe I can maybe I can outdo Ian slightly, but I think the interesting thing is around like having some additional like capability from like a custom execution

or like transaction processing perspective. So I don't know, we saw these teams that were starting to get more and more on like the you know let's make a our own like custom SVM chain to like build a particular product that's a little more opinionated in how we handle transactions or or build an app around it. Uh, and it seems to me like this is just like a clear kind of push back in the opposite direction of like, no, we want you guys to just build it on Soul, which I think is like it should be theoretically bullish any like app team on Soul. Hypothetically, they can make more differentiated custom products on the chain.

Salana did rally pretty hard yesterday from the announcement. But isn't it bad for Salana? Why would you say that? No reason. We'll get back to this in I think bad for fees in the short term isn't necessarily like bad for a platform in the long run too. It's like especially right now like if it's not being used for everything. Why it wouldn't be bad for fees though in general though like you're giving more you're giving more flexibility customization for applications the more you allow like the user experience to improve. I I essentially just kind of I mean I'm gonna I'm gonna reason by

analogy here. All right, so stick with me. I might arrive at the wrong conclusion. I do, but they steer me in the right direction. Good hedge. Like the way I kind of look at it is like just like widening the highway more or less. And like in America, everyone else like you zero. That's not even widening the highway. That's that's uh faster that's faster packets. This is essentially like, you know, like you're going to allow for more types of applications to be built. Like right now, like I said, like it's the majority of activities like memecoin trading. If you want to like evolve past like memecoin trading and have all these other like interesting things, you do need like go ahead lock.

No, finish up. This is for after you. It's like adding an HOV lane. Can't even focus on Box. Just going like this the whole time interrupting Ian. It's crazy. But yeah, I I feel it, Ian. You're taking the highway. Maybe let's say there already is a highway. You're adding an HOV lane. You're saying, "Hey, let's also build like a train that runs alongside it." It's not an HOV lane, Danny. So, so this is our this is our problem. We trying to reason by analogy here. And we already we already arrived at the wrong conclusion.

But it is kind of an HOV lane. there's like some custom logic for different types of execution that like sure maybe it's not actually in a different lane but it's like enabling slightly different types of things to happen um in this marketplace. Can I ask a very simple question will this lead to lower priority tips and fees guys? I don't know. I think we have to wait and see honestly. Like I'll wait and see. Make a judgment. Give me an answer. It's black or white.

I think I think I think Okay. Um a year from now, will we have more or less? I would say more more. You mean in aggregate or like the average person paying? in in aggregate like it's going like not like the average person paying I think they'll there will be less but like I do ultimately think like this is going to allow for like proper trading applications to be built on on the L1 when you build like proper applications that people want to use you're going to like just attract more users if you improve the user experience you're going to get more users I don't think it's like that complex and I also don't think we should like um no one

should be worried about uh like people paying less in fees in general though like on like the uh per user transaction like if I'm paying less like that's ultimately a good thing but like in aggregate I think you're just going to have like more actual transactions taking place and like as an individual user I think you're going to have like just a better overall experience you're going to have like you're experience less negative mev um all these sorts of things so I mean in aggregate I think it's like a huge improvement and it will ultimately lead in my opinion to um more aggregate rev for the network.

Okay. But we value Solana Soilana sorry on rev and in the short medium short to medium term unless there's a drastic improvement in users then aggregate rev goes down. Correct. Yeah. Yeah, but I think again that's kind of annualizing like a one month. We love to annualize one day activity though. That's our favorite.

Yeah, you're going to have both at the same time. Like the GTO block engine and BAM are going to be run in parallel with each other. Yeah. Boom. Boom. Um and and so like you're still going to have tips and like the like the block engine is definitely going to be able to help people that are looking to uh be like trading meme coins until someone builds like a plugin for that. But I think like the obvious thing is like uh it's going to be good for like applications like Drift that have like definitely um struggled to compete with like applications like Hyperlquid because you can't do what Hyperlid can do on Salana.

Can I can I make Yes, that this makes sense. Teddy speak and then I will speak. Yeah. In 2023 if you would have made the argument that Salana fees are lower than Ethereum fees and that's just how you're going to trade it. I think that you would have missed out on the fact that the pie is so small right now that like creating a better user experience kind of outweighs getting your average fee higher. Um well Lucas told me yesterday on the live stream that they can 3xtps. So to be fair I listened to that bit and Ryan forced them to I know TPS give me a number and then he caveed it a million times.

But yeah. Um, okay, that's fair. I want to say one thing about the hyperlquid thing and then we can end it. I think I'm fine. Of course. But that whole thing of like user experience. I'm not cancels um matter. Yes. But I also think that a large part of the reason why Hyperlid is doing well um is because they just offer markets that other DEXes don't offer. Like they're first to go live. I think they have like 250 markets. Um Drift has 60 to 70 which

is a massive difference. It's like you could trade pump two days, three days before it launched, like in pre-market as a hyper and then as the regular market on hyperlquid. They were first to list Melania and Trump. They're first to list a lot of tokens. So I think that's the main difference. But I mean obviously that depends on market makers, then that depends on cancels. So yeah, I I mean yeah, for I'm I'm not trying to say like you really hurt my feelings there.

You're trying to say it happens every time. Every time we can't we we can't have a a conversation around Salana without, you know, first like being like Hyperlink, but he's very beautiful first of all to establish that. Hey man, Hyperlink is great. I'm I'm going to steal man for Ryan. He would say that's backward looking that, you know, if they need to grow before they can add a couple hundred more markets because of the current size of the platform, like it might just be a limitation today. I don't know that they could list all the same markets because they might not have enough of trading volume or liquidity today to do that. Yeah. And this is what I would say to Ryan. I would say Ryan, but Drift has hybrid. It has an AMM and an order book.

So, it should be listing Solana tokens as soon as it can because it has an AMM system. So, also like Hyper like I mean there's so many more incentives to be trading on Hyperlid as it is right now. Like they also just like got the token economic model right from like the start. Tken ran up a ton. They gave it to all their largest traders and then you can margin against your your airdrop that you maybe haven't sold. Um all of at least um so I mean like that's great. Like there's a ton of things that are going for Hyperlid that like any other exchange is gonna it's going to be an uphill battle for them. Like the listings included like that's how Binance got to where it is today. It's

just like they were first to all these markets and you're first to all like what is initially like the longer tail assets. Um then you kind of just monopolize like all the capital on your on your platform over a long enough period of time. Uh and then also like with the stuff they have with like HIPP3 I think it's super interesting too but like um I don't want to turn it into like a drift versus hyperlquid situation because that's that's not what it is ultimately. like um it I think like the takeaway should just be like you know the user improvement to have drift be more competitive to hybrid liquid than it is today. Uh that definitely like hap is is happening for sure. Like um and also like everyone's everyone's gonna

want to comp themselves to the king no matter what and hyperlquid's king. So like everyone everyone sees like you know what what's their FTV right now? like Bach you might know or or just market cap in general like it's in the billions like it's it's a massive massive success has like un unfathomable like 43 bill for FTV yeah so everyone's gonna be wanting to get to a place that's like that like we also saw like a couple weeks ago and all of like crypto Twitter was like just freaking out every clubs um dude but I think daily aneurysms during that time because it was just Nick White quoting

himself and saying, "You could build this on Tia using blobs." ZK proof right now. Globs on blobs, baby. Blobs on blobs. Sorry, Ian. I cut you off again. Please finish. That's it. Pacio, I've already finished. You've been filled. Very good. Okay, guys. I think that's it for today. Let's end it on that. Um, do we have anything else we need to chat about?

We've been fully filled for the day. So, filled for the day. All our orders are in. Ian Teddy, thanks for coming on. To our listeners, thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed. Uh, have a nice day. Danny, how do you end these things? Is this it? Yes. We'll see you guys next time. Thank you for