Are Crypto Market Cycles Changing for Good? | Roundup

Transcript

these business models do have risk but I think smart contract based lending is the best business model on the planet because if the loan goes sour there's no calling someone and trying to get the money back it's just like we've instantly liquidated the collateral we've given uh you know the liquidation fees to the people who are backstopping it and we're moving on I think about what to do with my cash I'm like do I want to put it in like a private credit fund that has like a three-year lock and a who knows what they're investing in back by what collateral and I guess they'll call me if something goes wrong like [ __ ] that hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to the Wormhole Foundation if you're a bell curve listener you know that transferring across chains can be a massive pain I

certainly do I complain about it on this program all the time that's why we are super pumped to a partnered with the Wormhole Foundation the stewards of the Wormhole protocol the Wormhole protocol connects over 30 blockchains and six different run times including Salon sooie ethereum layer 2os and more and the coolest part about this particular partnership is that they have made custom bell curve nfts which you can get and mint for free you can claim that by just going down into the show notes and clicking on the link all right guys on with the show hey everyone the liquid reaking ecosystem in ethereum is heating up and we're excited to announce that swell has launched its own layer to this brings enhanced scalability and lower fees to liquid reaking on swell very exciting because we got pre- deposits that are opening up with main net

expecting to launch in the second half of this year so click the link at the bottom of this episode and you're going to be hearing more about swell later in the program thanks guys hey everyone everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to this episode sponsor flood protocol the optimal decks aggregator now if you are a listener of bell curve you know that me is a massive problem which is why we are so pumped to partner up with flood on this season flood is the only gasless and meev free aggregator that not only gets you the best execution but also gives you back all the extra Surplus that you create every single time you swap now this is relevant for both swappers and developers but you're going to be hearing all about them later in the program so for now thank you flood and

back to the show all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve before we jump in quick disclaimer the views expressed by my co-host today are their personal views and they do not represent the views of any organization with which the co-hosts are associated with uh nothing in the episode is construed or relied upon as Financial technical tax legal or other advice you know the deal now let's jump into the episode all right everyone welcome back to another Roundup edition of B curv we got Michael's one and to advance fellas how we doing top of the morning top of the morning we're up early for for for Mike still a little jet lagged from from London dude my I I got back we got back

Thursday night and I thought I had saved it Thursday I went to bed as late as I could woke up the next day felt okay Friday my [ __ ] my like basically Fitbit recorded a total of 58 minutes of sleep yeah that's why I that's why kept telling dude so Yano loves these things Yo's got like he's got the aura he had like he's had like three versions of the aura before the aura and I'm always like why do you want to know like what's that going to tell you that it's just gonna tell me I'm not sleeping well I know I'm not sleeping well you know uh I know this yeah yeah I'm on the I'm I'm giving that data yeah but it's I think the I

think going from Europe to the US is better than the other way around at least I always die when I go to Europe for the first like I struggle with that I mean did you guys take a red eyee on your way over but that always I always like struggle to sleep overnight on those planes pretty hard not to take a red eye flying to Europe yeah especially from the West Coast yeah it's it's much more difficult but you guys want to do a a quick little recap of I mean we were at Das we did Monday through Wednesday there um you guys both spoke uh lots of uh crypto folks on panels lots of like the black rocks and JP Morgans and the Goldman of the world um I don't know I mean I had some it was nice it's always nice to hear I feel like we spend a lot

of our time like kind of in the weeds like especially you guys spend most of your time talking to entrepreneurs and are kind of on The Cutting Edge but it's nice at least for me to like kind of zoom out and hear like what Black Rock and Franklin Templeton and all these people are sort of thinking about and I don't know like we've been hosting Das is the eighth time we've done it um like the institutional world moves much more slowly than the crypto world but for for me it was at least sort of comforting to hear that like they're if you listen to like the black rocks of the world they're in it to win it and they're not stopping at the Bitcoin ETFs like that's just the gateway drug for them and uh you know we can talk a little bit about this sort of money market like fund that

they just uh launched uh bidle you know and the some of the early traction there but that tokenization stuff feels like it's goingon to be real the first time and's comments on Foxx business yesterday I mean my my like takeaway one of my takeaways from D is it in a good way we I I think we felt out of place given that we left our suits at home but yeah the institutions are not coming they are here um that was one of my big takeaways I think you had a lot of people very excited about this you have multi strategies you you got the likes of like Brevin Howard on stage with someone like us very you know somewhat different strategies in in certain ways in terms of how they invest the size

that they invest but just the fact that they're you know coming into the full in size is a huge Testament to where we are as an industry the Black Rock perspective I also thought um Matt Hogan um for bitwise uh I had some really interesting perspectives on you know where we are in the life cycle of the ETFs first off you know the most successful ETF launch in the history of ETFs and to your point Mike this is just the start um and Larry Fink yesterday on Fox Business corroborated everything that was talked about on stage which is they're not going to stop of the one product there's obviously latent demand they're they're going to go out and build tons of different things Bill uh whatever the tokenized fund is called is is one of them he also talked about how

you know e ETF is something that's on on the horizon and um doesn't expect it's a if question it's more of a question of when um and obviously there in and just yesterday I saw Fidelity filed their S1 for E spot ETF with staking um you know everybody's coming out um a lot of positive momentum also I love the conspiracy theories on uh you know why people are including staking in their ETFs like you can always if you look hard enough see like Sinister signs and patterns and conspiracies of like you know they're doing this to get you know engagement and blah blah blah maybe they just want staking in the ETF have we considered

that um so like stop dude that's way too reasonable that's way too rable hold up I mean yeah I feel like we've we've beaten this horse to death but my conviction on the EF is that nobody knows anything and and the fact that like people assume that the issuers would give material non-public information to people at Bloomberg uh is just like categorically insane so look like I think the the odds on the eth ETF are way too low un likee places like poly Market it's also not you know 95% but I think the market is going to kind of look at this as um yeah I can't say what I was going to

say because our compliance officer would shoot me anyways um I thought the conference was amazing um we also just like you know Michael and I and and you as well Mike um just like hanging out having beers with people talking crypto like that doesn't really feel like work to me and LPS were you know excited um it feels like that has kind of returned uh there was a while where that was like you know Ice Age Frozen feels like that is beginning to thaw um and you know maybe this dubet Tails into kind of like the private Market stuff but like there is like a supply chain of capital where you know you have the endowments um and the fund of funds that

reload then the V Venture managers reload from that reload and then you have the private companies raise money from the Venture managers and so like the beginning of the supply chain of capital is starting to thaw and just from like what we've heard like it seems like there's some funds that are like finishing pretty strong in terms of raising I think some are struggling but you know if people are I've already seen people calling the top on this cycle you know fine God first of all um I think the other thing is like look like until you see the Venture funds reload like the private markets and the public markets aren't going to stop getting getting crazy yeah to just to like Hammer Vance

this point the money that's being invested right now uh by and large is money that was raised in 2022 or or late 2021 and most of that has been held on through the last year and a half two years and it's been drip fed out from from Venture funds who knew that it would be a multi-year process to be able to get back into a mode that we're in right now where LPS are at you know onth um and so to think about you know happens here in terms of you know flows let's just say the the Bitcoin ETF okay that brings in a net new buyer of 45 trillion dollars of of asset value that's locked up in raas and IRAs and you know all the people that couldn't

really access Bitcoin previously that's an unlock and that's what the lat and demand and the ETF laun showcases the continued productization of all of that I think is going to expand just the P Bitcoin into many other things tokenized funds you know ostensibly ethereum at some point here here um but what always happens is you you kind of trickle down it goes like Bitcoin alts long tail assets Venture scale assets and the people that are investing in each one of these stages is is fundamentally different the other thing is that the people that in this cycle are investing at each one of these stages is also fundamentally different when people in previous Cycles were buying Bitcoin and then rotating into let's say eth and then rotating into like defy assets what

they were implicitly doing in each one of those phases was they were selling the original purchase and they were set buying you know the next phase of this this you know chain I don't see that same thing happening this time because the net new buyers that are coming in and building up the base in these assets particularly Bitcoin right now eventually and other assets are people who are goinging to hold on to this because they're you know trapped in an ETF and they're they're net new buyers they're asset allocators they're not trying to buy Bitcoin ride at 50% sell buy e ride at 50% sell by def5 right at 10x and so I think that the market structure of this cycle is going to be fundamentally different and possibly lends freedance to an idea that we

actually might not see the same fouryear cycle again I know that that's like kind of a meme at this point but I can actually see that just based off the way that the market structure is running right now given the fact that we don't see billions of dollars of fresh new Venture Capital coming in yet it it will happen over the next 24 months let's say 18 to 24 months there will be billions of dollars raised but right now it's not available it's not there yet and as soon as that starts to happen that's the the start of the process of when these mon tail assets would be able to get kind of bit up and get attracted and so I I think the people that are talking about oh is it going to be 12 months is be 18 months from now when we see the top of

the market they're far underestimating what we have now with the new market structure I I would guess that there's going to be 10 billion of venture funds that are raised in the next year like it's it's like we're talking about real money and that's going to be like everyone's working off the tail end of their 2021 fund or 2022 fund to Michael's Point like it's kind of like you're parceling out like the last of the font you and then you're like starting to raise and and all that's happening imagine when everyone has you know fresh Capital people forget that openc got done at 13 3 billion you know starkware was done at 10 billion fdv in in the

private rounds like it's going to get pretty nutty one thing that I would also add I was just looking for some of that um for a chart of the amount of uh Crypt BC that got invested over the last cycle but one thing to support what both of you guys are saying um you know we've talked about it on the show a couple times before now but the beginning of this cycle already feels a little atypical compared to previous Cycles like there are these there are some data points that kind of match but there are some data points that aren't really matching up like I think you guys are absolutely right like you know Vance to your point about the beginning of the capital supply chain thawing it's clearly beginning to thaw but it's not like there are massive and you guys tell me like massive new VC funds being

raised and there's money that's getting poured into crypto today like that's definitely not happening like there's some retail activity that's coming back but it doesn't you know that uh someone at the conference referred to it as a i David merer of elmax referred to it as like a cab driver index it's like I'm not like taking Ubers and getting asked about like crypto stuff uh like I was in 2021 so I don't know they're like you may be with beam coins though yeah yeah maybe maybe um but to your point Mike I mean look um I think 1kx announced their $75 million fund uh earlier today um you've got you know1 $200 million funds that are coming back to Market so this is this is the start of the process of

the unon where you start to see a little trickle of interest but it's in the you know 75 to a couple hundred million you don't see the like inre and four and a half billion or how big their fund was uh you know fundraises yet you know but I wouldn't be surprised if we start to see that stuff in you know the next six to 12 months that process is getting started right now but I think the bigger point is historically you know the net new buyers of Bitcoin were people who own Bitcoin and when you own Bitcoin and see if rock it up and then you see new attractive opportunities what are you going to what are you going to do are you going to like somehow find some C couch cushion cash and just put that

into ethereum put that into defi no you're going to take your core crypto asset Bitcoin sell that to buy something else and the net new buyer isn't going now isn't going to be selling on a 15% price move up or a 50% price move up they're asset allocators and they're going to take 1% and maybe it gets to 2% and then they start to rebalance but like that's how this industry is going to go forward not to mention every two weeks when people get a paycheck they're going to start allocating more and more because you know their net asset base just went up by whatever $10,000 and so you know small but like every two weeks it's another 100 Buy $100 for that $10,000 uh you know allocation to their 401K that adds up and and so what I'm

kind of proposing is that there's a new market structure where the net buyer is not going to be a net seller as we Mo from one phase to the next and we haven't even served to touch you know the net new buyers coming back in size with new funds new new capital um and and so right now it's sort of dormant but you can start to see the trickle before we get to yeah I just think that's I think you're right I think it's uh it's it's tough to make this sort of call uh about breaking the four-year cycle you know suzu famously made it um last cycle and wasn't necessarily correct but I think you'd be silly to ignore this massive uh Catalyst and the Bitcoin ETFs kind of do

change a lot of things and I I know you guys have compliance I've got no compliance I feel like it's very you'd have to be pretty silly to bet against an eth ETF uh and eventually maybe like somewhere years down the line uh other other ETFs of like uh you know salana or Tia or whatever after they get big enough and you build a Futures Market or whatever so yeah yeah I do I and you know to Matt's one of Matt's key points is that when he was talking at Das is that we haven't even seen the raia sort of passive money come in yet right so there were a number of speakers that sort of estimated it's like we've seen 20% whatever we're in like the beginning days of that insurge of capital we've heard that too about the wirehouses

where it's like even black rock is like this is what we've heard so take it for what it's worth they're only like offering it to like 20% of clients like the most sophisticated the most you know made with the largest balance whatever um but yeah you're right like the title wave of money that's coming into the space I do think you know lends Credence to the idea that like the Super Cycle Theory was was ultimately correct um it's just like can you stay solvent long enough for it to play out and I think with assets like crypto this is how I think about it at least you're either underexposed or you're over exposed there is no real proper exposure and you know like you think about our fund compared to like any other vehicle on

the planet um we are Overexposed but and then you think about basically all of the raas that are like you know yeah we're thinking about it you know we're 0% right now but maybe we're like 1 to 3% in the future like they're drastically underexposed um and so I do think the Super Cycle Theory is ultimately correct like but you know can you stay in the game long enough for it to matter is kind of the real question um so yeah don't blow yourself up if you're if you're listening to this can I ask maybe a pretty basic question but you were mentioning that a lot of the capital that VC is deploying is raised in 2122 how long as a venture fund can you hold on to Capital and not deploy it for like

forever really I mean it depends it depends on your LPA but yeah typically you're GNA have a minimum of a a very minimum of two years for an investment period but that investment period very easily can be extended to five and it's not even like has to approve like typically it's like hey we can have from two to five years if we need to go to seven years to continue to deploy we can go there and in a typal venture structure you're raising money it goes in you're calling it over time as you make investments and then you're raising your next fund at the point in time when you launch that next fund the investment period from previous fund ends and you switch over to the new fund and so it can be you know a period-based investment period or it could be a

successor fund based investment period where as soon as you raise that success or five you switch over yeah I mean one of the things i' would like something that I heard at the conference as well that kind of resonated just talking to some of the more institutional people I've spoken to over the years is like there's a little bit of a supply demand imbalance between uh like especially like us Venture like whenever you talk to institutional investors are like okay like I'm either going to buy like some Bitcoin or eth or the other way that I could get exposure to the space is through this rapper that I'm super familiar with or vehicle that I'm super familiar with which is VC and uh they're saying that there's like almost like an there could be considered like an over supply of like especially like us-based VC compared to like liquid Market more

hedge fund type opportunities but the other thing it sort of feels like anecdotally is that a lot of uh maybe some of like VC firms right now are rushing to deploy so that they can raise their next fund is that not that's not the case no know I'm laughing I'm shaking my head uh in agreement uh because and and um uh with a recognition of um not the best fundamental management of a fund if you're in that position where the last eight months you realize that the market is moving in in a single Direction and you're playing catchup it means valuations are going to get blown out of the water um you know deployment pace is going to be obscene diligence is going to go down it's the

same type of stuff we saw in 2021 you know written large where you just had to put capital in and it was rate of deployment not success of of the deployed uh dollars um and yeah I mean I I think there's a lot of kind of misalignment in in terms of certain funds and you know you can get on the game of like hey we want to raise more funds so we get more management fees and then we get paid more and we continue on and have this job and hopefully one day the stuff we invest in comes back but like we don't really care because we're getting paid along the way the the other thing too that I think is interesting and you know if you're being intellectually honest with yourself as a fund manager in the space and to your point Mike you know Venture funds have

the ability and you know Venture funds but funds in the crypto Venture space should have I I believe should have the ability to buy liquid assets because you know there are points in time where you can justify a venture scale outcome from buying something you know on a secondary Market or or directly from the team the other thing that I think has to happen in to be intellectually honest with yourself as a fund manager is you have to Benchmark yourself against some index uh of performance of the rest of the market you know one of the things that we think about is what is your uh index what is your benchmark against a 5050 Bitcoin ethereum portfolio over the duration of your fund and you know I've seen people like um you know Nick from

one confirmation talk about this but that is also I think a differentiating factor if you're a fund manager charging look say two and 20% um why is it that people put money with you or versus just buy Bitcoin and Ethan bolt for the duration of the fund there's rebalancing there's sort of asset allocation but you should be able to get Alpha by putting into a higher cost fund structure like a venture fund um and that I think may become a narrative as well that separates the weat from the chaff in terms of venture managers is you know can you be Bitcoin basically 5050 e Bitcoin after fees if you don't don't beat that I I don't

think you should really be doing it as as a living the other interesting thing I don't know if people will care about this but uh there uh I forget what the exact regulation is called but most VC firms in the US I think it's if they hold more than 20% liquid they then have to so there's so there's this VC exemption in the US where if you hold less than 20% liquid assets you don't have to register with the SEC and you don't have to report or or what is it it's it's slightly different it's if you are not buying corporate Equity um and and that asset that you're buying is a digital asset or potentially secondary Equity um you know that you're buying

from somebody else um and that gets to be over 20% of the net asset base of your fund you cannot use the Venture Capital exemption the other thing is if um and and if you're I can't remember the an or but um there's also a limit in terms of AUM so if you aren't doing the 20% uh exemption um and you or Buy digital assets but you're staying underneath $150 million a total across the firm you don't have to register registering is a is a pretty big process and and that I think is something that not many people talk about you have to

register with you get you know examin you get audited there's new reporting guidelines there's new sa security guidelines there's new audit guidelines like it it comes basically with you basically turn into like a pseudo publicly traded entity uh or publicly regulated entity um and that that I think is a big deal as well which precludes a lot of you know traditional Venture funds firms from moving in that direction because they've been able to be a venture capital firm that hasn't had to have the same you know stipulations in require because they've been under the 20% threshold you know the uh I don't know not to pick on any specific one but like the client of purs of the world have historically just bought Equity um you

know they've never kind of come up to that 20% threshold and they don't do a bunch of big deals where potentially buying secondary is their strategy whereas someone like niia Thrive uh who is um or or like a general Catalyst who is doing you know secondary offerings where they're buying out you know major shareholders um or potentially buying selling companies uh completely you know that that would also trigger potential SEC registration so so they're not they're not buying crypto assets just because they don't want to register is the is the point um and so what's starting to happen in the US is like all these traditional Venture firms are like kind of on this other path where they're

just doing Equity they don't really have any liquid exposure there's no IPOs there's no m&a because of the FTC and lenon blocking it and it's like looking pretty bleak and then you look at the other side of crypto of like you know if you if you have some liquid exposure and you know a lot of these funds have done really really well and I was talking to um we can't name any names but like this large uh Outsource CIO for a lot of uh endowments and Pension funds and I was like would you rather invest in the median crypto fund or the median traditional Venture fund he's like no question median crypto fund better performance better liquidity better time to distributions and so the theory of I mean one of the reasons we

started framework and we we focused on crypto other than loving crypto was like this is probably the only asset class that's moving fast enough that we can like Leap Frog the traditional Venture firms if if we get lucky and we and we do our jobs well um and I think we're at the beginning of that starting to play out I think the other part is like a lot of the traditional Venture firms are going through generational change of of the Guard you know like the Michael morit is of the world retiring you know the Alfred Linds of the world you know dialing things back like the next generation of people stepping up and then you just got these Savages crypto fund managers that are like young really hungry pretty good performance I feel like you know it's

going to be an interesting few years just to see the whole Capital landscape evolve and it ties into the supply chain of capital thing that we were talking about where you know we're we're trying to basically talk to LPS about like look should we be in the crypto bucket or should we be in the general bucket like does it matter how do you distinguish like what are the things that you think about um and we're getting a positive reception which is cool I I've like completely agree with that just from an Outsiders perspective it just sort of it feels like a like the infrastructure that you need to set up to trade liquids like the ability to or not tra like invest in more liquid opportunities and I don't know just the willingness to do that and like to kind of go out on what would be perceived as

the risk curve is GNA be a massive Advantage for funds like framework moving into the future imagine too for this like people are like why would we pay you to hold Bitcoin eth you know like all the majors some alts whatever how bullish were you at ,000 eth were you willing to risk your career at your like you know Outsource fund to fund to like you know bid some eth and would you do it in size and would you hold it come on let's be serious the other the other point is Imagine you've been doing you know Venture invest signing documents and you know Equity agreements share agreements safe notes preferred Realms etc etc it's all document based um and it stays with lawyers and then you've been doing that for 10 20 years and then someone hand

you a ledger and they're like okay here's your investment and you're just like wait what what are you talking about like there there is a total different mindset that you have to be in it's like oil and water you cannot mix the two this also cannot be in we have yet to see it done properly and I know people point to andreon I think it's actually furthering my point but you cannot do this as a coverage area within an existing firm it has to be a separate firm and it has to operate as such and and I think people you know over this cycle have have completely realized that and and you know they're either doing it or they're not but um you know andreon recognizes as well because they spun the crypto uh basically arm into its

self-sustaining own unit and and it's still under the Andre and umbrella but but it is completely you know autonomous in that respect hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to the title sponsor of this season of bellur The Wormhole Foundation now if you are an onchain user which I bet you are if you're listening to bellur you know that the cross chain experience in crypto still sucks let's just call it spade a spade we talk about it in this program all the time interop is still a big problem which is why we specifically wanted to team up with the Wormhole Foundation they are a decentralized interop platform that powers multi-chain applications and bridges so that could be anything from defi to nfts governance oracles and more so if you are a developer and you're building uh

cross-chain assets apps or data or anything like that I highly recommend that you click the link at the bottom of this episode and go check out to see what you can build on Wormhole and Wormhole first of all this is a fun team they did something really cool with us you can actually go and click the link at the bottom of the screen which is going to send you to a landing page where you can claim your own unique Wormhole nft so we're doing this with me and we're doing this with Jason my co-founder so help a brother out it's a super cool nft I promise go click the link at the bottom of this episode and fill out your PO app get your free nft and if you're a Dev head over to Wormhole and check out to see what cool cross chain stuff you can build he

everyone Mike here wanted to give a quick shout out to swell we have been talking a ton on velro recently about the liquid reaking ecosystem in ethereum and how it's been heating up really really exciting stuff going on there and swell Leading The Way with their very own firstof aind restak rollup if you're a nerd like me and you're curious what that actually means and how it's built it's built using the polygon ZK evbm they're going full modular and relying on Ian da in collaboration with alt layer the other thing that they're doing that's pretty cool is they're using the reaking mechanism from igen layer to get increased security and faster finality so very cool construction and then the benefit if you either just want to use the L2 or if you're an enjoyer of Ru which is the liquid restake token you can just do stuff on L2 and you can get

that native yield obviously whenever it comes to something like reaking or liquid reaking there are risks do your own research Etc but swell is a great team they're going to be launching in the second half of this year but predeposit are open now so you can click the link at the bottom of this episode and tell them how to sent you hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to this episode sponsor flood protocol the optimal decks aggregator now flood is the perfect partner for this episode on the multichain future because flood is solving so many of the issues that we're going to be talking about this season and this is relevant for both Traders and devs so if you are a Trader you should definitely head over to flood Swap and start trading because they solve three massive problems one gasless trading no more pesky trading

fees two you don't have to worry about getting front run me free and then three they have excellent order routing so that you know that you are getting the best price so head over to flood Swap and click the link in the bottom of the show notes we're going to send you right there for the devs out there you can leverage floods flexible hooks allowing you to make swapping a first class primitive by adding custom order types like t- wops or if you're a wallet Builder or something like that you can actually build your own orderflow auction in and start recapturing a bunch of that me if you want to reach out to them go to devs flood. bid or just jump right in the Discord all right guys thanks very much appreciate you flood I've got a question for you guys um changing tax a little bit here about the

almost the psychological impact of getting a liquidity event especially for Founders much earlier in the life cycle of a company um there are some real pros and cons that I like I've thought through this a lot and I think the one of the big downsides of equity as like traditional sort of equity or you know private Equity at a company like like blocko stage for for example is the cons are obviously it's a liquid um you don't really have a great sense of when you're going to have that sort of liquidity event and you know especially when you're issuing Equity to like employees and stuff it's so complicated under like who understands an option right especially if this is your first startup it's just very difficult to explain and so you know not a lot of value ends up

getting assigned to it but you know uh the the pro of that though is that it's this very like motiv motivating unifying sort of force there are all these you know in different functions of a company sometimes you have people's incentives sort of bump up against each other like at block work sometimes editorial and marketing have like sort of clashed heads because the editorial just wants to like report you know very uh very accurate in the marketing is like guys we got to sell the sizzle here you like uh let's let's come up with some good headlines that people want to read and so the way that the reason Equity is so nice is that it aligns the incentives of like people that have um sort of uh I don't know internal kpis that bump up against each other but the but the the token just to give the other side of

that is like you get it you get a liquid so early that people assign more value to it I think you could argue that actually all else being equal maybe the token should be worth a little bit more you get a liquidity premium but I've also wondered for myself like what it would have done to me like three years ago blockworks just had some crazy liquidity event and I just sold a bunch of shares for a bunch of money like I'd like to think that it wouldn't have impacted me but man I I don't know I I I so couple of thoughts on this and and this is like an active conversation that we have with Founders and founding teams consistently um because the biggest the biggest thing you have to handle as being an early stage employee or being a Founder in one of these phed calls that

launches in the first few years of your tenure at that at that company at that protocol a psychology and your team psychology and just to you know level set let's say you join an early stage protocol it takes one to three years to actually build it to get to the point of like full launch and you know it's something highly technical it takes a long time it takes investment and you spent those one to three years developing and building typically what happens is everybody is locked up from that investment from from that launch uh either an investor or an employee for anywhere from 3 to four years post launch historically and you know there was an entire period of time when the

tech industry was much more like what we're talking about right now in the 90s you had Amazon uh and I'm probably a bunch of the exact dates you know start in in 1995 go go public in 1997 or 1998 at like a 300400 million valuation that is what these Protocols are doing basically right now and and I I think you know if if you were an early employee at Amazon let's say you had fouryear vest and you were there from the start guess what you're fully nested basically by the time that the IPO happens whereas with tokens you're actually locked up usually it's a one-year Cliff post launch and then it's like 36 months each month for after that clip so I actually think you know token

unlock schedules for Founders and and investors uh team members and investors are actually a little bit more restrictive than what you would see in sort of the Heyday the the IPO phase we just kind of like lost that period of time particularly because of Saars Oxley which required all of the companies that are going public to have this insane amount of audit and financial controls and you now it costs apparently you know $10 million a year to go if you want to go public just be a publicly traded company based off of the compliance audit tax uh Finance team that you have to develop but also the the comp you know the the cost from outside Council which Etc um so that's why the burden of going public has been pushed further and

further later and later which leaves this area of technology that is you know fast-paced highly entrepreneurial uh but it but is something that you know already happened in the 90s and and so we've seen this before it's just coming back um but to your point you know like what happens if you get liquid I think the hardest part is like you're sitting there with lock tokens and you're like watching you know the token price go up and down after it launches like you can't do that just like you know in the 90s when people used to talk about you know at Yahoo where they'd have like stock tickers on their hom page of like where the Yu stock was trading like literally Jerry in came in and was like if you have that on your homepage like you're fired like do not check it not on company time it's

not something that we care about we're here for the long run this is where great Founders and great CEOs or or leaders of of companies and protocols need to be able to manage the psychology of the team it's just something that's totally different you know what but as a funny Counterpoint to that that's exact opposite of what happened at Enron where the stock price was in the elevators and they encouraged everyone to look at it uh yeah oh isn't there this like didn't this just happen recently uh it happened in the dotcom bubble as well but there was some uh web 2 sort of startup the founder was encouraging employees to take out loans um to exercise option at bolt brutal just brutal I mean okay a don't do that b

um yeah that that was a private company and they were they were helping people take out loans to pay basically buy the shares so once you leave a company typically have 90 days to buy your options uh before you know they expire and you it's a lot of cash that you have to outlay it's also a tax burden when you buy them because it has uh minimum tax requirements don't do that if your stock isn't publicly traded don't do that also if you're a founder like one of the things that we push as well and this is kind of the standard now for for why accomodator for instance if you're a founder and someone's been there for at least two years or three years you extend that 90 days to something like five or seven

years yeah I mean just as a global point not even specifically related to like Founders and tokens it's it's always tempting to focus on you know how rich you are or how rich you could be or you know like I also find it funny that there's like a a desire from especially like crypto Founders and Tech Founders to like become paper millionaires or paper 100 or Deca millionaire like it it just like doesn't make a ton of sense um and I think we've kind of like long since decided to like not really babysit our crypto and not like be checking the one minute candles because it's just cancerous to to you it's cancerous to your team it's cancerous to the mission you're trying

to execute um and I I do like Chris berke's analogy of it's like soap you know the more you touch it the more you think about it it's like the less you have um literally the best investment strategy with crypto has been going into a coma for a decade um and you know it's different when you're running a company there's more agency there's more things to do but to Michael's Point congrats your token launched at five billion fdv and you own 5% you're now worth 250 million that versus waiting out the vesting schedule and selling it and making the company successful are all very different things to totally agree with all that one one additional point which I think

is really important we're talking about people who are there pre-launch into postlaunch one of the major benefits of having that launch is using it as a recruiting tool and and what I mean by this is anyone who joins afterwards obviously they going get some allocation of tokens uh they don't have to wait for like if you join at series B you're waiting for series C to mark up your your stock options or series D to mark up your stock option hopeing there's an IPO one day when you're joining at a postlaunch early stage protocol you're getting an allocation of tokens sold with the same foure vest or maybe even longer you have to wait a year before you get anything but you're aligned and you know hopefully the value that you're providing to that protocol is directly translatable into the value of your

assets and that I think is a huge recuring tool and not to mention like there are paper millionair like people used to talk like HR in palal people would talk about like all the billionaires that were printed from the ALU IPO or the Google IPO or the Facebook IPO that was more billionaires but there is an element of that becoming a recting tool because it builds the halo effect of those companies of those printer calls and it draws people in so okay so uh maybe compounding on that question a little bit how I don't know one thing that I have sort of started to not there there a bunch of companies I think or uh protocols right now that I think have tried to be like the first to Launch and get their token out there in a big category so like ethery could be

an example of this right like lrts like ethery right now is trading at some crazy like I I don't know anything about I haven't looked into any of the metrics like I think it's like seven billion dollar FDB which I'm just gonna go ahead and assume that's pretty rich you know but the the reason why that might sort of rationally make sense is everyone in the market knows lrts are going to be a big thing all the other stuff is private you have to you know you're weighing the sort of illiquidity of that versus the crazy valuation you're thinking like maybe this can just run so there's some amount of like sense that that makes there and maybe there's an advantage to being first to Market because you want to be that canonical token that people just buy like this could be the equivalent of to for ai ai crypto you

know stuff it's just like yep I could either like invest in this private AI thing that's to be honest really rich anyway or I could just buy what I think is going to be the liquid instrument that people use to uh to speculate on the AI crypto intersection I feel like there's a lot I can see a couple protocols that it feels like they're taking that strategy but the downside to that I would be curious how you guys would advise a Founder because the downside to that the upside to that strategy is like Hey we're live we have this crazy valuation we can use that as a way to acquire new Talent or I don't know maybe companies although even though I'm not a huge fan of m&a and crypto in general but like did see one of those this week yeah or I missed that

actually what what happened this please no more no more m&a Michael and I dabbled in token m&a last cycle and uh I don't think it's an invisable strategy let's just put it that way what was the one that happened this week there there's a combination started totally be real uh there's a combination of a couple of protocols and who each have their own token and one token uh I do I I guess I missed it but this is like the F Rarity type uh ill fated uh yeah I just I'm not really sure what you're buying when you're when you do that but you're not buying anything because like I mean at least the the Farrari made a little bit more sense than like these three AI tokens just combining into one oh that's what it was and uh there was two others but Mike

sorry apologies for dering but to your point I think you know there is an element where I think you're getting out of like what happens when you know the show potentially stops and it you know goes from being a recruiting tool to like uh a negative uh compounding cycle and like you know on a uh I was at Snapchat during the IPO um you know the stock popped uh and it stayed there for a little bit but then it went down and it stayed down for a while and you know same thing happens with companies as and like think about Facebook as well I don't I don't know if you remember this there1 billion doll IPO went up and then crashed and it was trading below the IPO price for almost an entire year and that I think you know drove a lot of like

questions also what the future was and this is pre them buil coming out with mobile advertising they at that point still had basically like a web app for their mobile application if you remember that um and the the whole point that I'm trying to make is if you don't have something you know post launch that leads you to continue to bolster that growth it can turn into a negative cycle and this is where it needs to be something that you figure out very strategically how you launch because a bad launch and something that doesn't fast follow and you know growth doesn't follow that launch can lead to pop and then a drop and a negative feedback cycle um happens in companies just as it does betters yeah

it's kind of like one of these one of the cool things about crypto is that you get to play with incentives a little bit more incentives are really powerful when you uh harness them in the right way but also it's just embracing maybe incentiv is the wrong word embracing reflexivity to an extreme degree can just feel so good on the way up but man it feels really bad on the way down remember how we felt you know even a year ago yeah yeah dude so my my my contrar maybe not super contrar in take is it's actually a really good process because the people um who get washed out during that negative feedback cycle probably weren't going to be there or they had

been there for a really long time like you know they're going to sell and move on and like go find something else to to spend their time doing um that is actually probably a good thing and I'm thinking more about like the people that left snap you know the year after the IPO or the people who left uh you know Facebook the year after the IPO like all of that stuff I think is a good washing and cleansing of the herd and and then they find a new Vector of growth like continue you know on the strory upwards but it it is actually sometimes a good thing to cleanse I heard um a podcast a couple years ago I heard hosu make that point that exact point that you just made and uh I didn't buy it at the time and because at the time I was listening to

this podcast I mean one of the things I used to give yo and I a bunch of heartburn was like we looked around we we have a rough understanding of like our competitors revenue and like where we sit relative to them and there was a point where we were like we knew we had the same or better Revenue than some of our competitors they had five times the head count of us and we were just like what the hell are we missing like this is so like it was really psychologically damaging at the time but then it turned out like we weren't missing anything they were doing some not not great or not very smart things and then it did end up like it did end up working out just like it took like years to to play along so I don't know if there are

founders out there that are listening to this and you are look you feel like you're making smart disciplined decisions and you're looking at your competitors that aren't and you're wondering if you're losing just keep doing what you're doing and uh just trust that sometimes it can take years to play out but like I you guys I'm sure have seen it on the investment side as well like there were some investors last ccle who looked like they were probably winning for a while who weren't uh you know the most upstanding guys and gals of all time and they're not here anymore so some of them are about to get sentenced to almost 40 years in prison yeah I think just to be honest it doesn't always play out like you know you win and they lose sometimes you both win sometimes uh you know like whatever

but there's always going to be people who make money that you don't like uh or you don't think you know deserve it uh I would encourage you not to focus on those people because it's no tragedy that someone is making more than you and it's kind of the same psychology of like is the job as an as an investor or someone who's just managing their own Capital to make good decisions and you know make returns that would put trafi to shame or is the job rotating into the daily performing best coin every day for five years it's not the second part and someone's always going to have a better day than you maybe better week and better year you just have to bet over the long term that you're gonna be okay wise can we quit I want to talk a little bit about um base actually I saw

this a tweet from um uh Ryan Ryan Watkins um just here I'm going to show uh some of the stats uh from bass recently but we talked about it a good amount on the show already but Bas is is really interesting L2 because they've obviously got you know coinbase uh the relationship with coinbase and you look at just the revenue chart here uh it's pretty impressive and yeah you can see they're doing like $2 million a day if you're uh annual liore at home right you might be backing into some pretty spectacular Revenue predictions for the year but you know already you're moving into some I mean this is yeah this is pretty real Revenue I I feel like

there's actual real adoption going on over in in baseland this is probably meme coin adoption so we can have a debate about whether or not that's real all of this volume is coming from univ V2 I'd probably count it as real uh I mean I don't know I I feel like base could really be one of those everyone is already interested in it as an industry but we might even just be sleeping on how many new newcomers you know they go to base for the first time I think coinbase has a real opportunity here to lean in and make the onboarding process extremely very differentiated very smooth onboarding process from the app onto the chain So Co the cool thing too I found is uh I mean first of all this is like an a classic example of like a background narrative that's just been

lurking and waiting to take center stage and like I think we're going to see more not less of that um and the other cool thing is like now that Bas uh has you know so many users they're starting to push for things like raising uh the gas limit which then pushes Ethel one to like also raise the gas or like you know it's like they've become kind of one of the driving forces of ethereum development which is really really cool um I think like prognosis for the future of eth is like all the l2s are like you know Community citizens all the apps are are also Community citizens like it's cool to see these things driving adoption and then driving changes as a result which pushed the industry forward um so it's cool to see and there smart

wallet is really cool also dude the smart wallet is so cool it's phen I did a u when at eth Denver actually I did a Fireside with Will Robinson uh who's the head of engineering and product at coinbase who is extremely based himself but yeah it's it's a very cool like I I do feel like some of the stuff that has been holding crypto back for such a long period of time I was having a debate with a buddy of mine this week about why I don't know it was it was on it was on the whole subject of like meme coins are they good are they bad because they suck a lot of like attention and energy and like are sort of discouraging from Founders away from like actual legit projects and I sort of ascribing some of the the reason why we haven't seen many apps that don't

have traction because of that and I just don't really agree with that actually I think the the reason that we don't have apps is because you know up to this point you haven't if you're an app developer you know you have like you had like kind of two options even as of like nine or 12 months ago you could decide not to take platform risk and then launch an eth main chain which basically means that you have massive gas fees right and that's extremely prohibitive or you could decide to launch on like either salana back then was really contrarian or I guess you had the l2s as well but you definitely were taking some element of platform risk I think this is the first time now where there's plenty of you know really cheap abundant block space on chains where it doesn't feel like you're taking any platform risk so

I I feel like I keep willing this out there because I just want this to happen but like I hope that this might be the cycle where you know we shift a little bit of this infra investment which has made massive strides uh but I think it's ready now for some actual apps that can onboard millions of people like I I would hope that we see this to cycle we we've talked about this literally on the podcast coming up to dancon 4844 yeah and I don't know exactly where which day on the chart but it's basically where that like exponential growth happens in terms of Revenue remember how we were talking about the fact that when you reduce something by 10x in terms of block space cost there is a greater than 10x increase which increases the total amount of Revenue this is that chart yep

you now have a new set of application categories that can exist in this ecosystem because the cost is less prohibitive we're just going to continue to see this as we drop another 10x it's going to go up way more than 10x in terms of transactions which means new applications which means new things which means and you know to the mean Point like they're neither good nor bad they just are and that I think is you know it it's sort of like Financial gravity or or like trying to divert a river as it's flowing it's just going to happen and it's going to flow in different ways and mcoins happen to be the thing that's happening right now I don't I don't think they're good or bad I think they're hilarious it's just kind of like you know they're cultural and and that is that in and of itself as a

positive sure maybe like some people think they take away from people doing serious things and building serious applications I don't think they take away I think they actually add to it and and that ultimately is a positive because it brings people into the industry I'm with you on that and I don't the reason I also don't think that it takes away from people doing positive things is like like sometimes maybe it gives you a little bit of heartburn you know if you've been like slogging away at something for six years and you like see someone launch a meme coin and make like more money than you could like ever Poss that's theic Trad wall that's what we were just talking it cannot pay attention to that you can't pay attention to that and also when I really think about it like I just wouldn't do

that anyway like even though that is an option even though that exists like I just wouldn't it's not my personality I just couldn't make myself do it anyway so it's a silly I agree I'm basically agreeing with you I think it's just it's not actually that much of a driving force there and it doesn't really matter and and probably it's going to be a net it's going to be end up being a net positive to these ecosystems like these meme coins that are trading on base now are going like some amount of users are going to go up there to trade meme coins and they're going to stay I don't know maybe it's 10% maybe it's 5% maybe it's 25% I've got no idea but it it probably will end up being positive so I was thinking about the coral area to what mean coins are for um uh you know the

same polar to what the internet had and the best example that I can come up with is it's kind of like like do you remember the first video you saw on YouTube I do I actually don't remember what I remember the earliest one that I can think of is that guy in the woods who'd be like give me some fried chicken you know he'd be like very uh mine was lights saer guy the the guy who you set of the tripod in his high school Film Production studio and like did the lightsaber and he like made his own sounds to it was hilarious all that stuff back then the tap videos the light saer guy that looked so like weird and Fringe and stupid but now whenever I go to watch you know TV it's YouTube TV it

is plugged into my computer the application is on my you know TV at home like that maturation process I think is kind of the same thing that we're going to see maybe not main point specifically but they start look they look like toys they look like you know Fringe they look you know something that's not going to survive but ultimately certain things will certain things will die but we're at that phase of development now from cultural and Community Based into something that is fundamentally productive and this is the reason why I think you can never discount this stuff is because the the community number one is a positive it's net positive to the industry right now but number two ultimately it could give life to something that is fundamentally differentiated over time just like YouTube

did okay I think that's a really good analogy and who would have predicted back at that time so obviously a lot of these people that made these crazy viral Fringe videos at the time like didn't amount to much but like the next wave of people that come in saw the opportunity and I don't know like there's obviously Mr Beast now that everyone knows they Logan and Jake Paul you know love them or hate them but I don't know have you guys heard much about Mr BEAST's candy and his like that his Burger Company yeah so I guess Logan Paul has an energy drink which is doing like $400 million in sales or some insane number like I don't know it's real stuff and if you had been predicting this you know

imagine like we we could be hosting this podcast at that time when we're watching these lightsaber deals and like imagine if you said that eventually this is going to lead to someone making a $400 million you'd be like okay dude you know sure you've lost it you know it's not going to be the Joe Bowden token itself but it's going to be the concept of Joe Bowden that ultimately is successful you should always assume like the the people who are doing these somewhat stupid things are smart you should like steal man it from that perspective you shouldn't assume that they're stupid and like work from there I agree you should try you should try to like you know think about it critically I guess like one uh one just closing closing story for you guys that I'd love to get your your take on is uh I guess like last

call back to D is I did a uh honestly I thought it was going to be a pretty technical uh panel but I actually ended up enjoying it a good amount with folks from copper drw um uh I'm blanking on some of the other names but it was on like collateral in uh crypto and it was interesting to hear drw's perspective on this um and it was he this guy Paul dropped a pretty I think bullish statement for Ste which is like one of the things that they care a lot about is capital efficiency so most of the liquidity right now for trading pairs is still in Bitcoin and eath but they just they want to just be holding Bitcoin anath and getting no yield so they actually like a metric that's really critical and important for them is like they want to be holding Ste and then

when they have to trade into eth for the you know uh to trade into something else they want to minimize the amount of time that they're actually holding eth on their balance sheet which I thought was super interesting um and then there's a new sort of uh I don't know like onchain money market fund uh like us YC which is which is uh pretty interesting that's like if you want to hold dollars but you want to be getting some yield and then Black Rock just launched this product as well which I guess is seen some 200 you know just around $250 million in terms of inflows and I don't know I think this maybe this is like I mean there's a Ste implication here which I find super interesting there's a but kind of just this like yield story I think people really underestimate how how much trafi

really loves yield and capital efficiency and I think that's only going to become bigger and bigger moving forward from here so two two things on on that I mean the first one is um like people like to talk about the eth BTC ratio um I think it's frankly like so volatile that it's like not really worth thinking about too much but you know you've only underperformed Bitcoin if you've literally taken your eth not staked it and put it in coinbase you know the yield that we've earned over the past few years like that that basically puts us up on on BTC and so like there is that yield manifesting in a way that comes back to perform performance the other thing I'll say is um the utility of Ste being able to

borrow against it on chain things like maker things like a things like Moro like the only way that we could run the strategy that we run which is a you know Venture hybrid approach to both liquid and Venture strategies is using Ste there there's no other asset that we could have be you know that big rock in our fund like Soul like there's just not enough borrow on chain Bitcoin like we'd have to wrap it Rel on bito there's not enough borrow on eth for that either um really the only way to kind of run this Crypton native strategy that we have is with steth as like frankly like the big rock um and and also like the capital coordination layer of of maker and and a and and you know Moro um but like the

the Black Rock stuff as well the fact that they have 250 million in there right now and yields are so high like you know you can put in Athena for 30% you can put in the DSR of maker for 14 15% like these these business models do have risk but I think smart contract based lending is the best business model on the planet because if the loan goes sour there's no calling someone and trying to get the money back it's just like we've instantly liquidated the collateral we've given uh you know the liquidation fees to the people who are backstopping it and we're moving on um it it it is like the most safe and secure thing like versus like private credit or CR loans I don't know one sounds more risky obviously the crypto

side but like like you know I think about what to do with my cash I'm like do I want to put in like a private credit fund that has like a three-year lock and a who knows what they're investing in back by what collateral and I guess they'll call me if something goes wrong like [ __ ] that the funniest line we had recently was someone who said yeah you know those public those public funds they've really been beating beating us up but uh those private funds they've been they've been holding in there it's like huh I wonder uh who's marking to Market on a daily basis yeah that's a hilarious statement that's super funny the the other funny one that I heard this like like kind of a different thing but uh so there's

there's there's you know the theory of investing which is like atams and bits uh and and bits are like the digital side you know and that's like what we've been doing for the past you know who knows 20 years Adams are like the we're going to go build like meat space physical things like you know it's very invogue right now mostly because people have just gotten beat to [ __ ] on like traditional software deals for the past three years it's like you know andril and then there's like SpaceX and then there's like all these like American dynamism defense companies and I was talking to this LP and he was like yeah you know we've really we've really pivoted from from bits to Adams you know it's really I think it's just going to be a lot you know easier more productive you know more returns it's like so

you're going to build like the most Capital intensive companies known to Earth known to man that have theow margins that you can dream of and just hope that you get to like super scale versus like investing in software but but that's kind of like where where the world is now like from an from like an Institutional Capital allocated perspective they've just been burned on these on these deals the epit into something more dangerous I know that's the epitome of selling the bottom and moving into something else because you're pissed yeah yeah also I think I heard uh like Bill Gurley or one of these guys described that like VC it's [Music]

for a long time but he wasn't an idiot and he said this thing about yield which like really sat with me he's like remember a while ago people were like where's all this yield coming from in 2021 and he said basically people think that the market is going to go up and he's right about that like yield ultimately comes from growth right like debt yield comes from hey I think I can if you give me money now I can turn that into more money later so that I can pay you off so growth is the ultimate driver and that creates like debt yield all these different types of yield and like just very you disagree with that or agree I I think it's more than that I think that's a major component I do think that there's like a a uh liquidity element I mean in the same way that you have a

house and you need to be able to like take out a you need to refinance your house you need to like take down whatever it is uh uh collateralize your house to take down borrow money to be able to go off and like improve your house like having assets gives you the option of of getting liquidity as well um but generally I think as we see Market scale like if you look at um maker right now the breakdown of the collateral and sort of like where the the revenue is coming from via the maker protocol it has shifted from Real World assets into crypto collateral I think that is a shift and and a recognition of I think these crypto assets are going to go up I'm willing to pay the 15% stability fee to like try and beat the market

essentially well it so 100 yeah I think they're I was maybe oversimplifying quite a bit there but uh there what it does make sense to me based on and certain Assets in crypto right like Bitcoin eth etc those are pretty large like liquid assets so it it makes sense to me why there should be more like positive real yields in crypto whereas mostly in like trafi land you're dealing with negative real yields for the most part because like inflation's going to end up being a little bit stickier like growth is a little bit more lagging than everyone hopes it's going to be I don't know there's an interesting um the very first season of vurve we ever did was on like fixed rate lending in Define crypto uh probably like way way too early on that you guys were my first first guests ever on B curve um let's go baby and uh

I don't know at that at that time I wonder if uh it'll be interesting to see many cycles or I don't even know if we have Cycles anymore but it'll be interesting to see what the yield and sort of lending and interest rate Dynamics are in crypto versus trafi and how correlated those are over like a long period of time because that one point remember was kind of the narrative was that hey there are lots of positive real yields in crypto and then it was like oh actually really cheap to borrow in crypto we're going to import those yields from trafi where they're super positive and I could see this almost this being like constant sort of Arbitrage or like dynamic in between these two where it's either like cheaper borrow here import real yields or like actually get yields over here and it kind of feels like crypto wins both ways

in that yeah the tough part with the Trad F yields though is that it's kind of a question as to how do you get that uh how do you get that borrow who's giving you that borrow what are you collateralizing to get that borrow yeah you know what hasn't really happened yet that I'm a little bit surprised about and this was what you guys said in that first episode I think you were it's looking like you're dead right is like the CI infrastructure that like extended a bunch of the credit last cycle has not really been rebuilt no I mean we're I mean we're starting to rebuild it I think also keep in mind there was like a banking crisis somewhere in the middle of all of this so you know like people are still reeling from that and like all the bad like lending is kind of out of Vogue in

general right now but I mean there's they just makes like defi all the more powerful like the thing that we did really well was uh when defi yields were and borrowing rates were lower than trafi yields and borrowing rates like we took advantage of that and that was at a time when also all the asset prices were much lower and now it's kind of like you know the FED funds rate is at like 5 a half and borrowing and crypto is at like 13 and A2 so it's a lot different um but I think that's going to be the incentive to move into the space like the build fund that is just like acquiring more assets on chain that's going to be one directional as long as these yields stay this high and then people are going to notice it

and then people are going to start to lend more against it um because that that what that's what build is doing effectively is lending even if they don't really realize it agreed all right fellas I think that's basically basic basically it um those a fun one guys I'll see you uh see you next week see you next week later man by hey everyone Mike here if you're a bell curve listener you know that transferring assets across chains can be a massive pain I certainly do I complain about it on this program all the time that is why we are incredibly excited to have teamed up with the Wormhole Foundation the stewards of the Wormhole protocol and the coolest part about this particular partnership is that they have made custom bell curve nfts which you can get and mint for free click the link

at the bottom of this episode take you get your free [Music] nft