Crypto EXPLODING Higher! ROBINHOOD Bull Run Continues

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[music] [music] [music] Heat. [music] Heat. >> [music] [music] [music]

>> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. So bullish. It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. Heat.

[music] [music] Hey, heat. Hey, heat. [music] Heat. [music] [music] Heat.

>> [music] [music] >> Corola [music] is headed to top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. [music] [music] [music]

>> [music] [music] [music] >> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] Yo yo yo yo yo [screaming] yo

yo yo yo. Wow. I mean I mean wow. I mean wow. Wow. Wow. Do you understand? >> [music] [music] [music]

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know we get deep [music] know we get deep we get deep know we get >> [music] >> We get we get deep. We get deep. We get we get [music] we get deep, you know. We get deep. [music] [music] You know we get deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep.

We get deep. [music] We get deep. You know we get deep. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music]

[music] >> We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. You know, we get deep. [music] We get deep. You know, we get deep. You know we get deep. [music] We get deep know we get deep know we get deep [music] we get deep know we get deep >> yo yo yo what's going on guys? This is itan with the rollup. We're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City

getting answers to the questions that you guys have most. What are people trading? What are people investing in? How much do people actually budget? We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. [music] >> [music] [music]

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[music] know we get deep we get deep know we get deep [music] know we get deep we get deep [music] know we get Wow.

Wow. Okay. A little short little tech hiccup there, guys. Appreciate you working with us. Crazy uh last minute show up from my side. I was at Harry Styles last night, so I uh Yeah. And in the back, if everyone can just mute up, thank you so much. Um guys, shout out to the production team putting the show on. Uh it's not easy. We are obviously in the Empire State Building here. Um and yeah, I mean it's just wow. What a morning. What a morning. What a morning. [sighs] Wow.

What are you guys holding? What are you guys buying? What's going on? What a market. Happy September 3rd. It's Thursday. We're live from the tokenization tower. Shout out to our friends at Plume here powering the tokenization tower as always, guys. Let's get a look at the view here. Let's Let's get a look at the view here. Um, beautiful day in the Empire State Building. Look at the sunny day in New York. The tower is on. Shout out to Plume powering this show from the nest from the tokenization tower. Ladies and gentlemen, what a show we have today.

What a show we have today. We got Dan Held coming in the tower imminently. He is one of the biggest Bitcoin holders and whales. Absolute whale. Absolute whale. He's coming in. Uh then we have Ishmael and Yanik of Bitwise. Bitwise institutional bulls research analysts going to be giga bullish. And then to top it all off, we end with Robbie's gonna join as well. He's He's dealing with some more stuff at his house. He's almost done with that debacle. We got Ryan Watkins.

He's This guy's got a nine figure hyperlquid position on his fund. >> Wow. >> We're going to talk to him. We're going to talk to him. Guys, tell me in the chat. What are you holding? What are you buying? What are you selling? What are you longing? What are you perp longing? What are you perp shorting? What is happening in your portfolio? I am ripping. I mean, we are absolutely flying. Wow. Guys, quick shout out to our friends at Dinari before we keep moving forward. Dinari is building tokenized infrastructure for US equities and bringing real world stocks on chain.

Tokenized equities on on Robin Hood chain are absolutely soaring. Memefi is going to have an insane run. We're going to cover Robin Hood chain today. We're going to cover u the market. We're we're going to cover the latest news and more. It's a beautiful 85 degrees in New York City and we are I mean we are ripping. This is the last show of the week. No show tomorrow for the long weekend. No show Monday. Unfortunately. Unfortunately. If it was up to me I'd do the show the whole weekend. This is insane. We're going to get a massive weekend pump. Like Trafi Bros are going to be sitting on the beach for this Labor Day weekend and being like they're going to be texting each other whales.

I'm talking 10 figure management aum funds are going to be texting each other this weekend at Labor Day on the beach drinking a margarita and they're going to be like why the hell are we not exposed to Bitcoin? Have you heard of Zcash? Supposed to be like this private Bitcoin. It's trading at $1,000 now. People are saying it's similar to buying Bitcoin at $1,000. Have you heard of Zcash? How about this hyperlquid thing that Donald Trump said? Have you heard of that? What's going on? Let's, you know, let's have a portfolio sync up on Tuesday when we get back. Let's make sure that we're allocated. That is what's going to be happening this Labor Day weekend across the east and west

coast of the United States of America. I personally, I'm going down to North Carolina. I'm going to be on the beach down there. My buddy has a boat. I'm going to be on the boat. And I know that we're going to be ripping. And I know that the institutional allocators are going to be texting each other over the weekend saying, "What the hell is going on with crypto and how do we miss the bottom?" Ladies and gentlemen, this move is the one that will confirm the exit of the disbelief phase into the belief phase.

We topped earlier in October of 2025 after 1010. We bottomed earlier than October 2026. It just makes sense. The cycles are getting shorter. The bull is on. The bull is on. We have been allocated to these positions since the lows and we are absolutely printing today. printing. So guys, let me know in the chat what you're buying, selling. Zcash looking great. Good morning, Freedom Guy.

Selling all my ETH for Ze and Lighter. Hell yeah. Uh happy ye RWAS. I'm on the 65th floor. Want to connect with you guys. No way, man. No way. Chemistry, good to see you, man. Uh the beef, good to see you as well. Hello, Bowen Ren. Cool. Yo yo. Um guys, great to always have you have you on the show. We are absolutely ripping. Let's pull a chart up. Let's pull a chart up. Insane. So, Bitcoin 81. I mean, guys, I mean, you guys heard Don Alt, right?

We talked about what Don Alt said. You know what he said? 90K in one in one in in one candle. How about Anom? Buying Zcash at 948 is like buying Bitcoin at 948. Wall Street bros are gonna be sipping margs on the beach this weekend, texting each other about their under about crypto ripping. Watch for the massive institutional FOMO next week after the long weekend pump.

I'm telling you guys, this is precisely what is about to be happening. This weekend we are going to see next week we are going to get institutional grade FOMO. But guys, you heard what Donald said, right? This is what's going to happen. We're going to 90K, guys. We're going straight to 90. People are so sidelined still. So silent. I wish Rob was here. He showed me his hyperlquid positions this morning, dude. Oh my god. The guy is printing on hyperlquid right now.

Printing on longs. Bitcoin, Zcash, Purr, hype, lighter, just printing. Unreal. Unreal. Print. Unreal. Unreal. >> I want to show you guys this book and recognize this resistance level. >> I call upon all market participants to look at the order book and recognize this resistance level. Now, watch this drive. I call upon all market participants to look at the order book and recognize this resistance level. Now, watch this drive. Bull market forever.

>> I call upon all market participants to look at the order book and recognize this resistance level. Now watch this drive. >> Yo yo >> bull market forever. >> Are you upon you kidding me? >> Are you kidding me, guys? Are you freaking kidding me? [gasps] >> Oh my lordy goodness. All right, so hype. I mean, you know, you you guys already know. I mean, we smash this right here. I mean, it's a rocket ship.

I mean, we're not stopping at 100. I mean, I'm zooming out, you know, right? Like, we smash this on a daily close. I mean, we're going I mean I mean, I'm zooming out, right? Like, I'm looking at Q2 2027 250. You know, I'm not playing for October, November, December. Q2 2027 250. I'm serious. I I I'm dead ass serious. I'll get the screenshot and you guys got to clip this. I was sitting in Hong Kong in the airport, November 2024.

I go to a dinner with five VCs, all junior analysts, Spartan Capital, Pantara, and a couple others. They tell me the night before Hyperlquid token launch, they tell me if Hype launches under three to four billion, so three to four dollars, we're going to be clipping in5 to$10 million clips on the liquid market. I get home from that dinner. It's probably like 11 PM. So, 11 am or so.

Back at home or 10 a.m. back home. I call Rob. I'm like, "Rob, whatever we have in our account on our balance sheet for the rollup, we're going to smash it into hype tomorrow. Not all of it, but you know, at least a decent five figure position. In hindsight, it it should have been a full port." So, I'm sitting there and I'll get the screenshot for you guys and we'll clip this. And I'm sitting at their Hong Kong airport 30 minutes before my flight back home. Hyperlid token launches at $2, $210, $2.50, $280. I am smashing market buy on Hyperlid at $2.80.

We get filled about I think 25 to 50 grand at $2. $2.80. $3 average. I get on the plane. I buy Wi-Fi. It's a five, seven hour flight and then another long one home. Dude, by the time the five hour flight was done, the thing was trading at like5 to7. I'm like, at that point, I should have just been smashing more, but but of course I didn't. That's my Hyperlid story. Didn't sign the terms and conditions to get the airdrop.

Julian on the team was texting me in June of 2023 about Hyperlid. kind of wrote it off but traded on it a bit you know I think if I recall correctly very lightly put some money in the vault didn't sign the terms and conditions missed generational wealth probably on the airrop but smashed it day one and I'm telling you right now from day one to where I to where we are that I'm looking for 250 in Q2 2027 250.

Book it. All right. Um, what what else is moving here? Bitcoin looks great. Oh my god. Where's Edward? Where is Edward? >> W's in the >> Where is Edward when you need him? Lighter at $4.26. Oh my god. This has been a generational run. And you guys see where I'm at. Q2 2027. We're looking for over 20 for lighter. We're looking for over 20. Pump, dude. I mean, all that Robin Hood chain is going to take over the world. It's the best

thing in the world. Everyone needs to buy pawns. Okay, I can't lie. I missed pawns. I messed up. I should have been in pawns. Should probably still be in pawns. Completely messed that up. Completely messed it up. And I'll get to that chart. But this this one Q2 2027, you're looking for a 10x from here. You're looking at about 4 cents. You're looking for a 10x from this level.

I entered longs down around 24, closed them a bit early, was like kind of pissed. I was telling you guys about this yesterday. And so I just have been absolutely tewing this chart the last I don't know like three like I kind of got chopped up here, but I've just been teapping here. Like I've just been t-wopping longs. Tew longs. T-wapping longs. T-wapping longs. I'm long. Six figures pump. NX 2027 per I mean guys I mean this is levered hyperlquid

Q2 2027 I mean we're talking we're talking we're talking $30. We're talking $30 per. I'm serious. I'm dead ass serious. Zcash. Oh my god. I mean, this one I zoom out even more. You guys already know where what I'm looking for. I my main entries are around 500 with spot and longs on purps probably closer to 580 600

I don't know you know multiple six figure per longs and a decent bag of spot I mean I'm looking for I'm looking for $12,000 Zcash I know this sounds crazy I I know this sounds crazy and I know that you Maybe we're getting a little bit of ahead of oursel, but that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for I'm looking for size on those. I'm looking for size.

I'm looking for that. That's what I'm seeing on on on Zcash. How about Scythe? I had this in my uh IRA account and I sold it and boy do I me did I mess up. >> Embarrassing. >> Boy did I mess up. So on that Zcash news where it So where did this chart So on that Zcash news that hack news I was in it that here was the hack news. I was in it around a dollar. I was up on it and then Zcash took that tumble down. This thing traded down like 40 cents and then I sold it on almost bounced back to like 65 80 somewhere in that range and it shot for a while and then it just I mean

this is just I mean this is just I mean bro [sighs] can't win them all guys can't win them all but this is why the biggest mistake right now is not selling. This is what or or sorry, it's selling the this is not a trader market. This is a holders market. Like I'm not doing a whole lot between these targets that I've given you guys that are obviously rough and stuff that could change. I'm not really doing a lot like near, you know, I want to see near break new alltime highs.

Like I want to see near trade, you know, Q2 2027 like in the 20s or in the high teens, you know? Zama totally slept on. Totally slept on. Has never had a pump. This thing could go ballistic. Privacy narrative. It's there. Could go ballistic. VVV. I'm underallocated. This thing is about to explode. I'm going to get long on VVV uh imminently, like now. Um, yeah, I'm going to get long on VVV now.

Uh, plus VV VVV. How about Robin Hood on the back of uh on the back of this Robin Hood chain explosion? 15%. Dude, are you kidding me? Robin Hood chain making $2 million a day and paying like 15k for data availability fees and then 10% arbitum is insane margins for their company. It's like $700 million a year at current volumes. I think Vlad likes this and will want to try to 100x this. Game on. Stock flying. Missed this yesterday on purp.

Should have longed it as soon as I saw the Anom tweet. Anom called it. It was perfect call. It was perfect call. Should have longed it. Still think it's a good long on any dip. Set some limits. This thing's going to fly. Trafi doesn't even know about Robin Hood chain yet. Doesn't even know about it. VV's been a little bit weak. like consolidating, but dude, this is ready to explode. This is ready to absolutely explode. And then Bitcoin, of course, and and ETH and Soul. Here's where I'm at. Q2 2027. It's going to that's a bit aggressive. This is where I'm at. Somewhere in there.

Somewhere in there. [snorts] That's where I'm at for Bitcoin. I hope Bitcoin spot. Never sell. very secure place. Obviously, you know, we like Bitcoin and things. They're a great custodian. Um, but obviously, you know, self custody is the name of the game for Bitcoin. But, you know, self- custody is tough. You know, I don't want to have a target my head and things and that's why I don't really do I don't really use self custody as much as I used to just for safety reasons, for OBSAC and just everything. I'm not hiding from anybody.

I don't I'm not doing anything legal. I'm paying my taxes. 10% to offchain labs or arbitrum. Uh Arbitum basically to offchain. Yeah, it's it's the same thing effectively. It's going to arbitrum and then Arbitum is putting out a announcement I believe to do buybacks with that revenue and it's ripping. I mean it's ripping absolutely [snorts] flying. Absolutely flying. Unreal.

Uh, can we please talk about how the last cycles were speculative and now the real utility is utility institutional adoption? I'm bullish. Yeah, I got Dan Held. He's about to come on the show in the studio here with me in person. He is a Bitcoin OG and I will be certainly talking about that exact thing. Yeah definitely. Um, what else? ETH. Wow. Wow. Yeah. I mean, dude, ETH Q2 2027.

We're here. We're somewhere in there. I think I think we're somewhere there. That's my That That's my read. Somewhere there. soul Q2 2027 we're somewhere here or somewhere there I think crypto is about to be the best performing asset class in the entire world for the next six to 12 months at least in the short term at least three to six I think I would say it's harder for me to read like like I don't know what happens second half of 2027,

right? Like it's hard for me to like kind of read that honestly right now, but I think it's pretty clear that we go a lot higher in the immediate term. I think so. I think it's pretty clear. So yeah guys, those are my current positions thoughts and I'm gonna add to this ASAP like now. Um otherwise yeah I mean this is also very true. I think people were waiting for October December

to enter force to reconsider their process after the recent impulse. If they say, "Okay, I'll pick up 20% of my target allocation in case pair with minimum minimal leverage built up and bottom buyers giving it some room." Bullish chop. Many are still sidelined. I totally agree. I think many are still sidelined. Many like look at this post. The one thing that keeps me from being 100% certain about the crypto bottom, I don't think anyone can be certain, is I know how brutal this asset class is. People have PTSD. PTSD. full-blown PTSD.

Sideline bare pill PTSD. Like straight up. I mean, you we we can read this whole thing. 1010 destruction, COVID crash, yada yada. I can still weather a storm. A lot more to feel optimistic about. I just said, "Dude, the bottom's in." Like, the bottom's in. Like, I just I I mean, I just The bottom's in. the like I I there's not really any way other way for me to describe this right now, but it's in.

So, I think people are still sidelined, you know. I think people are still sidelined and I think that um yeah, I think people are still sidelined. That's it. So, I got Dan Held coming in. Um, going live with Dan Held now in the tokenization tower talking all things Bitcoin bull cycle. Talking about the new Bitcoin bull cycle plus institutional era of crypto.

Tap in. All righty, guys. Be right back. Give me like two minutes. See you in a sec. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] >> We get deep. We get know we get

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>> Yo yo yo. What's going on, guys? This is Itan with the rollup. We're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City getting answers to the questions that you guys have most. What are people trading? What are people investing in? How much do people actually budget? We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212.

[music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music]

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[music] We get deep. [bell] 70 7 All righty, guys. We're here in the nest in the tokenization tower with Dan Hell.

Dan, great to have you, buddy. >> Thanks for having me. >> Welcome to the show, guys. Dan is one of the OG Bitcoin bulls. I mean, an investor, early adopter, uh some would call him a libertarian, early investor, and early innovator in the space. So, Dan, it's great to have you. Um, what a day. We're pumping hard. People are sidelined. Bears are still out. Clearly, bulls are in control for Bitcoin. Everything's go, you know, moving in the right direction. What's your read? >> Well, you know, it's always funny because it's darkest before dawn. I mean, one month ago, people are panicking, saying it's the end of the space, that Bitcoin has failed to reach its promise, institutions are here, it's all dead. And now, one month later, we see a the bullish winds have come back.

So, this is a classic representation of how the Bitcoin cycles work. fear and despair, complete apathy is what the bottom represents. And I think we had that there. There was a widespread amount of apathy of like it's over, I'm out. A lot of people quitting, it's usually a [clears throat] good bottom sign. So >> say overall, given that this is my fourth cycle that I think we've bottomed. >> Now the strong resurgence is because of the Treasury's actions of considering buying back treasuries, right? Or sorry, the Fed's actions to buy treasuries in order to lower the uh you know, the effective rate on bonds. So when we see that happening, basically the world is saying that we don't trust governments to be able to pay back their debt and that inflation is going to be a growing concern. Of course, Bitcoin is special purpose built for that moment. That's

why we pumped so hard from 60K all the way up here to like 81,000 today. >> Yeah, >> I don't think this is going to stop. I don't think it's going to go rocket right up to 100 right now. But this is what Bitcoin is built for. And I think that's why we're seeing the market move as it is. >> Yeah. I mean, some people call it like the most reflexive financial asset that exists in the world. And so as soon as uh Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant made that claim of hey guys we're buying longended you know long long end bonds and to try to you know reduce the steepening of these curves which in any normal economics class they would tell you that the current bond yields are a cause for a crisis but we live in a fugazi economic world now as you know

this is why you're a big Bitcoin believer. >> You know Dr. Miller legendary hedge fund manager came out the other day wrote that really interesting letter where he said like look just let the market be the market. If if rates are rising, that's fine. It's just the market saying we don't trust in the US's fiscal policy. We don't trust your ability to cut spending um and or raise taxes. And so that's basically what that number represents. Basically getting and also getting inflation under control. So it's funny that they go talk about these buybacks when you know in effect you can't stop the market from moving against you. You can't stop the market from going a certain direction. So, you know, the Treasury's ability to really stop this from happening or these rates to increase is somewhat limited.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, man, I mean, Bitcoin's Yeah. 81 um you know, people are stoked on Ethereum and Salana and all these other names. One name that OG Bitcoiners who I only have a couple in my network. I consider you one of them now. Grateful to have known you. Um, I got these texts over the last three months, and really like three to six, and it was like, "Hey, Andy, just, you know, you're a friend of mine. Just want to help you out. I know you work hard. We're buying a lot of Zcash at 100 to to 200. Anything in between the 2004 $200 to $400 range, I'm buying Zcash. I'm taking one, 17th, 1/8 is the numbers that I heard of my kind of long-term BTC and

I'm allocating it into Zcash." So I'm like, okay, so these guys are, you know, these guys are, you know, multiple eight figures, nine figures, Bitcoin since 2013, you know, and so I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, okay, so this is obviously going to be one of the trades of the cycle. Not yet a Bitcoin, right, in terms of its moneyiness or kind of, you know, network effects, but it's kind of coming on to be like this beta asset to Bitcoin. What's your take the like the whole privacy narrative, the whole quantum narrative? What's your take on Zcash? I mean, I've seen so many crypto narratives come and go over the years about various crypto assets that >> this is one of a few thousand. Um, >> the whole privacy angle, look, for libertarian OG types, the privacy angle, of course, we like that, right? Like, we

like the idea of a money that can't be traceable and or transacting privately or storing your wealth privately. The problem with privacy chains is that they have a fundamental trade-off between the auditability of the supply, >> correct? >> And the privacy angle, which just happened as Zcash, what was that, six months ago? Yeah. years ago. >> Yeah. >> Where there was a not an inflation bug necessarily. I forget the nuances of it, but it made it hard to know exactly how many Zcash existed and or if there was an exploit done to where the amount of Zcash was artificially manipulated. >> Yeah.

>> So given that the most valuable part about Bitcoin is that it's we can trust in the 21 million hard cap, Bitcoin's community decided not to make that trade-off. Remember that the Bitcoin protocol could be upgraded to absorb any of these features of other altcoins. Bitcoin has upgraded itself numerous times. >> So if the community decided that privacy was a huge important factor, we would have made that trade-off. >> Yep. >> However, the Bitcoin community won't make that trade-off whereas the Zcash community has. Y >> what I'm trying to say in a very nuanced way is that we all want privacy and auditability. You can't have both, >> right?

>> There's always going to be less auditability even though there's all sorts of return styles and other ways that Zcash can audit. their supply. >> That is an inherent weakness for a store of value digital gold. That's why Bitcoin will never have it. >> Yeah, >> Zcash has decided to add that. You know, that's it entire premise is privacy. >> Now, why now? Why Zcash? >> Yeah. >> I always have an allergic reaction when everyone's talking about the same narrative at the same time. >> Where was everyone shilling Zcash a year ago, year and a half ago or 10? Yeah. Or during the lows, right? Like I didn't see these eloquent this you know an eloquent thesis from top crypto VCs come out a year ago about Zcash. They all piled on after it pumped.

>> Right. >> The crypto space works pump than narrative. >> Correct. >> There is no narrative that drives it. The narrative is reflexive and and produced afterwards even for Bitcoin itself. >> Of course. >> So is this narrative true? And is Zcash all of a sudden an asset that's undervalued or not? I don't know. Because for me, anytime I don't like buying things that are really hot and everyone's talking about it because they've been so early with things like Bitcoin, >> right? >> And things like SpaceX. >> Yeah. >> I like hated assets. That's usually when they're priced well. >> Sure. >> So, right now it doesn't feel like Zcash is exactly priced at a discount. It feels very, very expensive.

>> Yeah. >> I think a lot of people are buying it because other people are buying it. >> Um, again, I believe in, you know, when you have an investment thesis, you have you should believe in this before anyone else believes in it. So, I'm inherently not that type to chase a momentum trade. >> Yeah. >> So, that's my opinion on it. >> Unfortunately, my entry wasn't at 20, but it was in the low hundreds. So, I feel early, right? But now it's at 950,000. It's like, well, okay. >> The hard part isn't getting in, it's getting out. >> Yeah. >> Because you haven't sold yet, right? >> But the OGs that I spoke to, um, Dan, um, you know, they said the only, you know, how you know, hey Andy, you know, you know how we did so well on Bitcoin?

We never sold. >> True. But Bitcoin is a distinctly different asset than these other assets, >> right? But theoretically, if you follow like the logarithmic growth curve or something like a Zcash and I'm just kind of like defending my positions, right? These opinions are held loosely. You know, things change, >> but you know, theoretically the price appreciation of Bitcoin obviously is like >> those those people have a bit of uh like you know, you have a bit of like this like survivorship bias because there was thousands of altcoins that you could have said, "Oh, how do we get rich? We didn't sell." Well, it didn't apply, right? it didn't apply. So, you know, we'll see what what happens. But yeah, >> well, I have no doubt that you could outperform me in the short term. So, will you outperform me in the long term?

I highly doubt it. >> Yeah, that's >> Yeah. If you look at all legendary investors like Oak Tree Capital, Howard Marks, Warren Buffett, etc. They don't claim to make short-term trades in order to profit. Most of them have a long-term horizon. >> And if you look at their performance, they outperform almost everyone else. Yeah. Um, so unless you're dee Shaw Rent where you have information or alpha that no one else has and they can win on the short term. >> Yeah, >> it's pretty difficult to win. So I've missed out on thousands of altcoin pumps, >> tens of thousands and I will in the future. >> Yeah, that's fine. >> But long term, if you look at the BTC to altcoin ratio, like pick your altcoin, Ccash Monero Ethereum Salana whatever you like, >> anything Cardano, XRP.

>> Oh god. You know, like if you look at the the altcoin to BTC ratio, yes, sure, they pump and I've missed out on all of those. But long term, you know, getting in isn't the hard part. It's getting out. >> And that's where most people don't have a a systematic way to exit their position once they've entered it. >> For example, imagine it's at what is it today, >> Dash? >> Almost a thousand. >> A thousand. So, your entry is, let's say 100 >> you know, a little bit higher, but yeah, low. >> Let's just say 100. >> Yeah. >> Well, let's say it drops to 500. You probably won't sell because you're thinking that it's going to go back up. Then it drops to 200. and you think that it's you're not going to sell and then it's down at 100 at your cost basis.

>> It's a psychological game against yourself. So, if you're going to trade, which I don't recommend, >> I'm a long-term investor for everything I do. I'm a shitty trader, by the way. >> Sure. >> And I only work on trading tech like what I did at Kraken and my interchange, my last startup, because I'm not good at trading. I like to build software for people to do. >> Um, you have to have your exits pre-planned before you enter, right? because you will always keep huddling it all the way up and then eventually it comes back down. Now for assets like Bitcoin or what I consider like Bitcoin or SpaceX like multi-deade generational assets that doesn't necessarily apply.

>> Y >> but for altcoins most of these I would consider like gambling. >> Yeah. And you have to have an exit plan. >> Exactly. >> So talk to us about the SpaceX play. So did you buy a did you buy a lot here at the lows around like 100ish 150? Like it's we're breaking up above 150 now. So, this kind of felt like the time to really get into SpaceX. I missed it. My my best friend has been just pinging me. He he he's like an e-commerce entrepreneur. He, you know, just just does Bitcoin and like S&P 500 and and a NASDAQ, but he's like, I'm taking 10% of my portfolio and doing like my my account, you know, not the indexes and not Bitcoin, and I'm putting it all in SpaceX to start.

>> Um, what's the SpaceX thesis? What's the long-term thing here? This is a multi-deade investment, I assume. So, how are you thinking about this? >> Yeah. So, I have a certain personality trait where I get obsessive about things. Um, I don't know what you want to classify me as with that, but maybe it's autist, maybe it's something else, but like for different assets and other things, I get really into it. >> Yeah. >> Um, what I realized in life is that your alpha or your ability to outperform everyone else could just be because you're so obsessive about one asset. I'm gonna miss so many investments in real estate commodities >> uh, all sorts of tech plays, AI, >> but for Bitcoin, uh, you know, I spent the time to really obsessively learn about it, right?

>> And I would say like I spent so much time that I realized I'm one of maybe a thousand people. I'm not going to say I'm a genius and I'm not going to say I know it all, but I'm probably top 10,000 back in like 2020, like 2012, 2013. Yeah. >> That really understood it. >> That gives me an edge. That means that I know how to price this asset and I think everyone else has mispriced it. >> And that's the bet I made. Now, there was a lot of like path dependency risk of like Bitcoin could have died. Like if we re reran the universe simulation 100 times, maybe Bitcoin dies for some reason 59% of the time, 60% of the time, who knows? So, I'm I'm somewhat lucky.

>> Sure. >> Because risk is what I can't calculate. >> Sure. >> So, SpaceX, I applied the same thing. It's I've always been really obsessed with SpaceX. I went to the first Falcon Heavy launch in person with the employees. >> Wow. I went to the first Starship launch. That was after I made the investment. But five years ago, I basically sold most of my Kraken equity and put it into SpaceX. >> Wow. >> Because I had spent the last year getting obsessed about the unit economics of how it would work and the potential TAM if it did work. >> SpaceX, like Bitcoin, has a certain sort of I would call it a metric crux. Bitcoin is 21 million like the whole world's value divided by 21 million.

Right. Like that that's your classic like that's like the metric. >> Yeah. 8 billion people, 21 million coins. >> Exactly. Ultimate scarcity. Yeah. What's the value of that? Ultimate provable scarcity. SpaceX is dollars per kilogram. How much does it cost to send one kilogram of matter into space? And SpaceX took, you know, the space shuttle launches were about $20,000 per kilogram. And with Starship, it'll be $10 per kilogram, >> a 2,000x reduction. So, if that happens, that was my investment thesis. If that happens, that will unlock a TAM that is likely larger to be the global GDP.

Wow. >> Now that sounds ridiculous. Like, [laughter] you know, like >> five years ago, it sounded even crazier. >> No, it sounded even crazier. >> Sounded nuts. >> Friends, family lovers all hate me because it's like dinner time, you know? It's like I talk about Bitcoin and SpaceX. >> I'm a little bit of a one or two trick pony now. >> Yeah, I >> I invested under 100 billion valuations. >> I was going to say I was going to ask that. >> My risk was Starship. Were they able to execute and build Starship and launch it? And I'm like, I'll take that bet. Now again in universe simulations if we had rerun the universe a 100 times maybe 20% of the time they would have failed.

>> Sure. >> But even with that the Falcon uh Falcon 9 they can still go deliver Starlink which is a trillion dollar business. So I wasn't too worried about the valuation even if Starship failed. So Starship has massively been successful. They're launching their first uh orbital launch with a an actual usable payload of the new Starlinks. So like SpaceX totally executed on this. >> Yeah. People don't understand how much this will change everything. I mean, SpaceX will own telco, including mobile connectivity, not just like, >> you know, this isn't a replacement for fiber. It's a replacement for your T-Mobile, AT&T, Verizon. Then you have things like defense contracts. You have rods from God dropping kinetic payloads from space. So imagine like you could hit every target in Iran with no pilot

risk and you could hit it within seven minutes with very little to no detection. >> Yeah. So pretty crazy. Um, and you can also do things like Brilliant Pebbles, which is a program envisioned in the 1980s and 1990s. >> Uh, this is essentially the Golden Dome project that Trump has talked about. >> Since we can detect launches from, uh, adversaries, >> we can drop small payloads, kinetic bombardments onto those ICBMs or missiles from space. >> Wow. >> So that will give the US a complete dominance over the nuclear threat other than smuggle nukes. So it's not only just like it's a national security and like base thesis. Yeah.

>> This is the equivalent of developing a nuclear bomb though, right? >> Like you either have it or you don't and if you don't have it, you're at a huge disadvantage, >> right? >> So the US will have complete global dominance that in that way for about a decade before China catches up because China's space program is pretty advanced. >> So I was just out in the national parks um with my girlfriend. We were hanging out for a couple days out in Yellowstone and in the Tetons. Beautiful. It's epic. And of course, there's no Wi-Fi out there. I brought my little Starlike Mini, plugged it in, 300 megabits speed in the middle of Yellowstone National Park on the roof of my cabin.

>> And pretty soon, it'll be right to your phone >> and on airplanes. >> Yep. Everywhere, which will be incredible. And then also, people forget about the connectivity connectivity of robotics and IoT. >> Every single boat, airplane, every single little humanoid robot, every single robot farmer, etc. There's that. And then you have things like, you know, compute in space, right? like uh orbital data centers and obviously that's become a really hot narrative this year. Orbital orbital data centers make sense on paper. You basically trade off um it's a higher capex to get it up there but then your opex is zero. >> That's and so there's a cost curve analysis where that makes sense. Um so you know that's huge as well. You got a million things here. I'll rattle off a couple but not spend too much time.

Earth observation cameras in space monitoring the globe. You could before they were really expensive to get up there. They also didn't have continuous coverage. Didn't have the ability to stream the data because it's really data intensive or do compute which will have all of that up in up with Starlink and Star Mind. >> Yep. >> Uh then you have things like pointtooint. You take off in New York and land in Tokyo in 25 minutes. >> Wow. >> That will exist. I mean you're just you're riding a rocket. It won't be a comfortable ride but I travel for business on business class there for almost once a month and I be the first one to sign up for that.

>> Yeah. millions of other things like this, you know, and if you look at it, it's sort of like, you know, what's the value of the new world? Sure. >> For the uh, you know, back in what was it? Columbus came in like 14 something. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> Like basically the TAM of all of North and South America didn't exist. >> Yeah. >> It's sort of the same thing. You're discovering all these assets in space and that TAM is is one pretty uncalculable. >> Yeah. >> But we know it's large. Um, asteroid mining, etc., etc. Anyway, so you know, if you look at this and you start to map it out, um, by the way, if you want to dig further into this, check out Mach 33's research, >> okay?

>> Uh, Aaron Bernett and Vlad are the two guys behind that. Super brilliant. >> Elon tweeted, "I haven't seen a re a company produce such good research outside of a rocket manufacturer or satellite manufacturer." >> So Elon loves Mach 33. Those guys are fantastic. I've chatted a bunch with them. >> Yeah, >> they while I synthesize a TLDDR narrative, they spend the time to actually do the math. So, if you want to check the math out, >> that's what I'm curious a bit about on the math side. Not necessarily about like about all the rockets and the, you know, the Starship and the Starlink and the robots and Etsy, but more on the investment side. What is the investment math here? Like obviously you're in, you know, extremely early. I think the stock's trading multiple trillion dollar valuation now two and a halfish or something threeish maybe a little less.

But what like what's I mean not price prediction or like stock price prediction but like >> sure if your thesis is right give us like your bull and bear case for SpaceX. >> Yeah. And think about it this way like the dollars per kilogram or cost to send a kilogram into space as that decreases makes it cheaper to get into space the TAM increases. So just think about it from that perspective. So they if they keep executing on Starship mass produce them mass launch them reuse them basically that cost curve keeps going down. >> Yeah. Um, if that occurs, you know, I think I think by 20 I think by in three years SpaceX trades at a 10 trillion market cap.

>> Wow. >> I think by I'm 38. I think by the time I'm old older, >> yeah, >> maybe maybe like mid late 50s about 20 years from now. >> I think SpaceX trades at 100 trillion market cap. I know that sounds ridiculous, but you've got, you know, if you look at the projected Starlink, Star Mines and other ass and these other product lines, these are huge. And they predict, they predict, like for example, Starlink, they predict the revenue to double for the next five years. That's two to the fifth power. >> Like people don't think in exponentials. That's why Bitcoin is so hard to value.

Everyone's like, I remember when people thought Bitcoin was expensive at $100 or $1,000 [laughter] >> and now it's close to hundred thousand. Yeah. But then someday Bitcoin will be at a million and people will be like, "Oh, well 100,000 would be cheap." >> People's minds can't gro exponential curves. >> Yeah. >> We're a linear thinking species. >> Yeah. >> A deer runs in front of us. We throw a spear. It hits the deer. >> Yeah. >> Crops don't grow exponentially. You got to do all the work and it's kind of a linear process. >> Seeing things double and double and double and double isn't what our minds are made to think of.

>> Right. >> So if you can see that curve or spend enough time to care about it, again, I'm not a genius. anyone else can come to the same conclusions I did. You just had to spend the time to think about it. >> 100 trillion dollar market cap. Yeah, I'm gonna buy I'm gonna buy SpaceX for the long term here after this show. Um my buddy's been harping on it and just been like, man, you got to get in. You got to get in. What about the investor psychology required to see that through? Like Dan, what do I need to do? How do I like do I need to make a separate brokerage account that is like long-term holds and then like my trading brokerage account? And how do I mentally see this through? You know, I'm 27. Yeah.

>> So, I'll be 50, you know, theoretically in 20, you know, 23 years. How do I hold SpaceX for 23 years as an investor? Obviously, sizing is a big part of it. So, you know, you know, let's talk about percentages of portfolio. Let's talk about the psychology of required because I right my time scale of investing career is I started when I was like 18. So, you know, 11 years or sorry, nine years. Um, so I don't even have 20 years under my under my belt. So think about holding an asset for 20 years, h how do I manage that trade? >> I mean, that's a fantastic question.

There's a lot of different components to this. I one had the humility and the introspection to go, was I just completely lucky with my bet or were was there a method to my madness that I can reproducibly do over and over? You know, that's where I read all of Howard Mark's letters from Oak Tree Capital, read a lot of what Warren Buffett's stuff. And what's funny is if you actually take all of their learnings and distill them, there's really just two things that they both that they all say be obsessive about a certain asset and know everything about it. And once you do, you probably will either find that it's overpriced or underpriced because you've spent more time than anyone else looking at it. There's just too many things for everyone to look at. And if you know a lot about a certain industry or a

certain asset, you have some alpha there. The seconds, which is funny because basically it's our core mantra in crypto is huddle. >> Yeah. >> And the huddling part is the hardest. Howard Marks is pretty kind of quirky and funny with how he references it. He's like, "Look, >> if you really understand the asset, if it drops, you should want to buy more, right?" >> You know, if you're feeling like, "Oh, I should sell after it drops." It means you really never understood the asset to begin with. >> Yeah. >> So, the hollow part is extremely difficult. And I would say Morgan Hustel with the psychology of money has a really good thought process behind this.

There's investing practically versus investing rationally. >> Investing rationally would be like if I truly have this conviction in Bitcoin and SpaceX, I'm 50% 50%. >> Right. Sure. >> That max full send. >> My portfolio is almost all that. I like a little bit of a cash buffer for expenses for like a year or two and then I have a small percentage in S&P. because that just makes me feel good. >> Sure. >> That's investing practically, knowing my own character versus investing rationally. Now, until 2021, my net worth was 99% in Bitcoin.

>> Wow. >> So, I did almost a decade in Bitcoin exclusively. >> No S&P, nothing else. >> Wow. >> So, I've lived that. I was a young guy and I feel like for men, young men can handle that better than other demographics due to our whether it's stupid or smart ability to take outsized risk. >> Of course, >> you know, I think women for example will outperform most men, but not for the outliers because men are idiots enough to take crazy risk. Like we're the one who went stabbed the bear, brought it back to the tribe to go win the favor of the tribe, but the other three dudes died trying to stab the bear. You know, you don't hear about all the losers who invest in ultra- high-risisk assets and lose, >> right? So, that's where it's not for the faint of heart. It's not for the for a

certain type of demographic. For yours, for example, in your late 20s, you can stomach a lot of risk, aka >> and risk is not volatility, but volatility is our rudimentary metric >> to measure risk. Howard Marks has great thoughts on this >> because, you know, you can't measure risk. Risk is what's uncalculable. So volatility is the representation of people repricing risk for an asset or what its future value is too. >> So your ability to stomach that is probably higher than most. You're also born in crypto. So exactly if you can survive this asset class, you can survive anything.

>> Well, what's funny is thinking about allocating to SpaceX here for my portfolio actually feels like a bit of a d-risking. >> Like yeah, you're diversified now, right? >> Like I'm in so many I'm in Bitcoin. I'm in freaking tons of coins, all these seed investments. My entire company is predicated on fin I mean it's gone from crypto to now finance which is great. Yeah. [snorts] That's why we're having this conversation instead of you know going into the weeds about institutional adoption of crypto or something. Um but it feels like a diversification of a strategy somehow. >> Yeah. And I mean part of this is both calculating like your immediate liquidity concerns to pay for expenses.

Um only invest money you can afford to lose. There's your ability to stomach risk and then you know it's kind of a factor of like which you can do interesting things by the way like Cubera is a way to track all of your assets in one one spot and it pulls in live data and it pulls in live balances. >> You can use that and then like talk to Grock or chat about it. >> Yeah. >> Where like you can analyze your live portfolio and you can chat about it. >> You know there's again the psychology of money. I think Morgan Hustel did a great job of talking about practically versus rationally like >> I like it. at what levels should you take money off the table? Like you you're never and you're not going to live forever. So >> money when you're younger is much more

fun, >> right? >> And that's where I woke up and looked at, you know, I've invested extremely well. >> But then I've been such a good hodler that like I never touched my Bitcoin, right? >> Or anything else, you know, >> and so there's this there's this curve in life where the longer you don't touch your assets, they compound exponentially. >> Sure. >> Classic classic return profile. Y, but your health exponentially decreases at the same time. So there's a sweet spot in a way where I think that everyone teaches you how to invest, but if you become really good at it, it means you've withheld consumption for such a long time. Correct.

>> And let it keep growing that you haven't figured out how to spend it or >> what the do you need anymore for? Like >> Yeah. >> You know, I woke up and um I'm [clears throat] not going to say I'm crazy wealthy. I've done quite well. >> Yeah. >> But why the would I want a billion dollars at 60? >> Yeah. I know. Like those guys would trade 9995 million and have five million bucks where we're at. I mean, you're a bit younger than I am, about 10 years younger. They would trade that all to be your age. >> Yeah. >> Maybe five million in the bank right now versus a billion at their age. They would trade all of that. >> Hangovers suck. They wake up later.

People don't view them as attractive. >> Yeah. >> Like >> they haven't they haven't been wanted in in a decade, >> you know, things like that. >> Yeah. >> There's no calculable value for that. So, also you could just die tomorrow. You never know, >> right? >> 100%. >> So, yeah, I would say there was a lot of introspection I did of like, cool, I'm really good at this investing thing, phenomenally well at it, but what's the point? [clears throat] >> So, there and that's the intimate side of being a human, >> right? >> Rather than a robot. >> So, I think there's a good balance of both. >> Yeah.

>> You know, for example, like let's say your net worth is a million just for easy numbers. um and your buddies want to take an epic lifetime trip to uh Cabo and you want to [snorts and clears throat] spend 5,000 bucks, >> you probably should take that trip. Like that's a pretty small percent of your net worth >> and it's a it's a trip with all your buddies and then maybe you know six years from now they're all married and none of them can meet up again and you definitely would have missed out on like a trip like that. Like those are important to take. Um, you know, whereas some people, especially in New York City, they're grinders. And I used to be a grinder as well. You know, I was early growth team at Uber. When I was working at Kraken, I worked 80 hours a week.

>> Yeah. >> For three years. Sometimes you have to grind, but at the same time, it's got to be worth your while. And that's where in New York sometimes I see these like attorneys or investment bankers and they're like, you know, they're like 30 years old and they're making maybe half a million. And I'm like, I don't think that's worth it, man. Like half a million a year, half that goes to taxes and you got to pay high rents in in New York. And so maybe you're netting like a 100K in savings a year. >> Yeah. >> To lose your late 20s, early 30s. >> Yeah. >> Probably not worth it. You need to be netting a lot more than that. >> Yeah. >> So thinking like reading the psychology of money and the art of spending money and die with zero, a bunch of these

books helped reframe what investing is all about to begin with. It's you're producing you're allocating capital wisely in order to have an appreciation of assets that then allow you to live a life. >> Yeah. So you got to remember about the living part. At the same time, living decrements from your investment portfolio. So it's a balance. >> So to put this into more actionable practical lens for the audience is what's your what's your rich by 2040 portfolio? Is is it Bitcoin and SpaceX?

Is that it? >> I mean, if I felt any differently, I'd sell both. >> Yeah. >> And I own something else. Vast majority of my portfolio is SpaceX and Bitcoin. >> Yeah. which, you know, for me, I'm 38. Um, so, you know, maybe if they 5x or 10x, I decrement 10 or 20% off now because I've got to start rolling it into things that make me just feel more comfortable. >> Yeah, I totally hear you on that part. Like, I'm very aggressive right now with my positioning, but I have I fortunately, you know, had gotten some good like gold and silver that's locked away. I got some Bitcoin that's locked away. Some I have a house. So, it's like these small things like I don't even look at them or pay attention to them and they honestly and like you know the real estate piece just bothers me but uh

it's the mental sanity. It's the the rest of my portfolio is in >> freaking beta altcoins. My career is in this and all you know and so it's that mental piece has helped me a lot. >> Let's imagine you outperform your existing portfolio. Let's say you could outperform it by being all in on risk and this was guaranteed. Like let's say you could eek out 3% more a year return above what you currently have, >> but you were sick to your stomach. >> Yeah. All the time. >> Yeah. Exactly. Is is that really worth it or not? And you got a ulcer at like 30 or something, you know, like I don't know, you know, again, it's a knowing your body in your mind and what you can handle.

>> Yeah. >> Um and life is a game after all. >> Yeah. >> Like Yeah. Coming back to this kind of practical versus rational thinking here for the investor. Um, you know, people think about investing as a get-richqu thing, especially in crypto. How do you remove the shortsightedness in investing and think about longer term exponential outcomes? Because as you said, us humans are hard, you know, it's hard to think in exponentials and we've spoken a lot about that already. So, you know, in a new way, kind of fresh way, how do we kind of delay gratification in the investing world? And how do you how do you is it a, you know, you have a shorter term kind of like perks bucket or something that you want to, you know,

if you if you got to scratch that itch, that's what you do. I mean, that's kind of what I currently have. You know, it's like a small amount. It's like, all right, if something I I think, you know, it's going to pump in a week, I'm gonna, you know, trade it there as like my trade portfolio. But other accounts don't get touched. Is that like the right framing? How do you, you know, take short-sidedness out of investing? >> That's a really good question. I mean, know yourself. Like, if you need to scratch that itch by having a trading account, get the trading account, but make sure you don't top it up. Like, I hear you. >> Maybe it's a quarterly amount, 10,000 bucks, 100,000, whatever your number is. And that's your limit. It's like at the casino. It is gambling to some extent when you do do day trading because you

don't have any alpha. >> You might have alpha like let's see if you know some information about a project, but probably don't have alpha if you're a regular trader. So yeah, if you need to scratch that edge that way, sure. Um, you know, some of it too, like maybe your concentrated position and in like an ultra high risk, high volatility volatility asset, maybe there's a price you'd be willing to sell at. >> Yeah, >> you could sell covered calls at that strike, >> which would give you a yield because you're selling your upside, >> right? >> And that sort of commits you to selling in a way. So it's sort of the market paying you to sell at that price >> if it does hit that. So you could use that as a way to keep yourself honest whenever you want to exit a position is

selling calls at certain strikes and so the market is paying you that premium that counterparty and if it doesn't get called away you just write it again. >> Yeah. >> And if it does get called away then you're like cool I would have sold anyways. >> So that's an interesting way to scratch that itch where like a covered call trade as a seller of a call that is a trade and it keeps you honest with exiting a position. So that's a good way of doing it. It also makes you feel rewarded for waiting >> because the mark the premium the call buyer is is paying you a premium for that privilege to exercise that option from you.

>> So those are other ways but basically like know your know yourself. You need a separate trading account cover calls and then finally Howard Marks Warren Buffett understand the asset. Do not buy because your friend told you to buy I'm not picking on you. I'm just saying in general for any asset, >> you should be you should know all the details about this thing. Every single little piece of it. You should know. Look, did I understand Bitcoin perfectly when I got in? No. But after I bought it, I quickly did because it's all I could think about. And I knew a lot about the existing financial system.

I studied finance during the 2008 financial crisis. >> I'm that old. >> So, you know, going down this rabbit hole, you got to really understand it. And when you do, then you're not panicked when it dips. >> Yeah. Like my faith is unshakable. You can check all the receipts on Twitter. >> Yeah. >> Like all the way back through 2015. I didn't start tweeting until about 2014, 2015. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You can check my receipts. You can ask rock be like >> Dan never tweeted anything bearish. >> Like it's unshakable because I understand the asset. >> Yeah. And so hold outsized percentages of your portfolio in longer term assets that you firmly believe in and manage your psychology through, you

know, potentially covered calls, scratching your per itch, scr scratching your short-term itch, however you know you want to scratch it, and stay up to date with the asset. Be be in the top 1% of understanding your biggest holdings in your portfolio. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. That's Yeah, I mean that's it. >> I know it sounds basic, right? The thing is a lot of people I mean what's funny is diversification is the price you pay for ignorance. >> Sure. That's why you buy VU or VTI or S&P which those are representations of that to some extent because you know and for example a small percentage of my portfolio isn't that and that is my ignorance diversification payment that

I'm making where let's say I'm really wrong about Bitcoin and SpaceX. Bitcoin has a a game theoretic exploit. Again, there's reasons why I don't think this is going to happen but let's say it does. >> Yes. Elon Musk dies from an assassination and uh three of the facilities are targeted with bombs. You know, things that would be like it's very improbable. I don't wish that to happen, of course, and I don't think it will happen. >> Um you know, those would massively decrement. I still don't think it would make either of those fail, >> right?

>> It would just delay the price path dependency up and up like up and up. >> So yeah, I mean I diversify because I don't know everything, right? Right. And so that's my payment I make because I don't know >> for ignorance. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> You know, because they say diversification is the enemy of returns. However, like you know, like my friend for example that I spoke about at the top, the guy's all in on on e-commerce. He's not he's not looking at charts every day. So, he's just S&P, NASDAQ, Bitcoin.

>> And that's great. Yeah. It's you're going to get the average return. You're not going to get outsized returns, but even the average return is phenomenal. Yeah. Um, I think a lot of people don't have patience for that and that's why they're trading all sorts of stuff, but the average return is great. In fact, the average return of the S&P 500 outperforms the top hedge fund managers in the world. >> Yeah. >> Very few of them consistently beat the market. >> Yeah. >> It's almost impossible. >> Yeah. >> So, that's where, you know, unless I have better information on these singular assets, >> then I'm probably not going to try to trade against the best of the best on the S&P on a subanualized basis. within a year.

>> Um, what's funny is hedge fund managers are only rewarded for short-term performance, >> which means that they're not valuing these assets for their long-term value. >> And that's where you do have an edge against the smartest people in the room >> because they're not playing the same game you're playing. You're playing a different game, >> right? >> You can and you don't have any reputational risk or career risk. Yeah. >> You're not going to get fired for buying this asset that's hated like Bitcoin was >> because it's your own money. >> Yeah. That's why family offices were the first institutions really to get into crypto or Bitcoin >> because hedge funds, other folks couldn't take on the risk.

>> Yeah. Now, venture capitalist did too. They were buying like equity and it's a little bit more complicated. >> Yeah. >> Um but yeah, like you're essentially on the same risk profile as venture capital. >> Um but even venture capitalists aren't that contrarian. >> It's actually a misnomer. Like >> people think VCs are super contrarian. They're not. There's very crowded categories and they've misallocated a ton of capital because of the reputational and career risk. For example, >> yeah, I understand. >> Yeah. Like A6Z, Sequoia, if they invest and you're a smaller VC and you get in into that round, too, they don't actually do any other underwriting of due diligence.

>> Yeah. It's just that they're >> Yeah. Yeah. And then they're not even wrong. If it fails, then they're like, "Well, A6Z went in." Like the smartest guys in the world, >> of course. Yeah. >> Yeah. So just Dan to kind of close the loop here. Um the last thing that I want to cover is what do you do when you're wrong? So thesis is established, position is established practically speaking, but concentrated, right? You're concentrated. You think you you're up to date on the asset. You're concentrated. You've got a plan. You've got an exit strategy. You've done the research. But you're wrong.

>> Yeah. >> You're still wrong. you're just flat out wrong. How do you change biases? How do you recover from losses? You know, maybe you haven't had as many losses as others in their career, but you definitely >> on paper. >> Yeah, exactly. How do you how do you >> how do you deal with that? >> Yeah. I mean, on paper, I've had my net worth drop 85% three times because I was 99% in Bitcoin. So, >> I didn't sell, but it was uh wasn't fun. No. Um >> yeah. So, you know, two things. One, go back to your investment thesis. You should literally write this down before you buy it.

>> Yep. >> Has the new information altered my investment thesis. Like, you know, for example, if the Bitcoin community decides to change Bitcoin's 21 million, that would be a pretty serious breach of like scarce digital gold. >> In that case, my original investment thesis would be invalidated. Therefore, I might choose to exit my position. >> Um, so if your original, and remember, you got to write this down so it holds you to it. If new information invalidates that, then maybe you should reexamine holding the asset. >> Um, you know, other things as well are it's more of a trading against yourself game.

>> Sure. >> At the end of the day, it's just you. It's you against you. >> So, like, you know, if it's down that much, like, can you actually stomach it going to zero? >> But you should have entered the position knowing that it could. >> And then sizing is an important thing. >> Yeah. When I entered Bitcoin in 2012 is when I first bought Bitcoin, but when I started to accumulate, I was in my early mid20s. >> And so, like, for me, I didn't have that much money. >> Yeah. >> Um, that's where I do wish I was 10 years older because I would have had a lot more disposable income. >> However, it also meant I could I didn't really have any obligations. No family, no kids, no mortgage. So, if it all went to zero, I' and I'm working, I'd be fine. It would have sucked, but I'd be

fine. Um, so you know, I think that is an important part about sizing, but then also knowing to, and this is about exiting the position, what is life-changing money? >> Yeah. >> I know a guy, very close friend of mine, sold all of his Bitcoin at $1,000 per Bitcoin. Now, here's his path. He bought Bitcoin at like $10 a bitcoin. In 2020, uh, 2013, it went from $10 to,200. 100x return. >> Wow. So all of a sudden he was he had a million dollars. Now he's in his early mid20s and he's like, "This is awesome.

Million bucks." And this is again a little while ago. So that's more like 1.5 million in today's dollars. And so he's like, "You know what? I think it's going to go higher." And so then it dropped from 1,200 all the way down to 170. >> Yeah. >> Back at the bottom of 2015. >> He then he promised himself as soon as it hits a thousand again, I'm going to sell it all. And he did. But then he could have had 20 million because he missed out from a,000 to 20,000. He never understood the asset. Bitcoin at $1,000 of Bitcoin is a tiny uh market cap. If he thought that the Bitcoin is digital gold, why would you sell anywhere close to that?

>> Yeah. >> At $100,000 of Bitcoin, which is like 1.5 trillion, Bitcoin is starting to glimmer like digital gold. It's still not even digital gold yet. >> I hear you. >> Like at a 10 trillion, 20 trillion now, Bitcoin is really competing against gold as a digital gold or gold alternative. So, he never understood it. And so, you know, when we think about exiting a position, don't be like, I'm going to sell at 2x. Why? Like, why would you sell at 2x when you're buying an ultra undervalued asset that has long-term potential? You shouldn't be coming up with like 2x, 3x. Don't think about it that way. Think about if my investment thesis comes true, what will this be worth? And then what would the market cap or the valuation of that be?

>> Yeah. And then you can back into, okay, if we get close to that, I want to sell some, etc. Or like at that point, I might be in my mid-30s and I want to buy a house, so it' be good to sell some. And my wife's bugging me to get a house. We got two kids on the way. There's all sorts of life considerations, but that's the way I would think about it. >> Dan, I wish we had more time. I think this is it. That was awesome. Um, yeah, awesome conversation. Thanks for coming through. Uh, beautiful day, beautiful view. Market's ripping. Um, great to have you, buddy. And uh thanks for being a part of the show, guys. We'll be right back with our next guest. Markets, charts, more markets absolutely flying.

We'll see you guys in just a second. Quick turn around here. [music] [music] [music] We get

know we get we We get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep [music] know we get deep we get deep know we get deep we get we get deep we get deep we get we get >> [music] >> We get you know we get [music] [music]

we get deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep. You know we get deep. >> [music] >> We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music]

[music] [music] >> We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. We get deep. [music] We get, you know, we get deep. You know we get deeper. [music] We get deep know we get deep know we get deep we get deep know we get deep know [music] we get deep we get deep know we get deep [music] we get we get deep we get deep >> yo yo yo what's going on guys this is

itan with the rollup we're going to be patrolling the streets of New York City getting answers to the questions that you guys have most. What are people trading? What are people investing in? How much do people actually budget? We're going to have people from all over, all different investment classes, people who are dead broke, people who are dead whales, people who are just loaded. There won't be a mayor or politician to stop us on the streets. We're going to go everywhere. All five burrows. We're taking over the 212. >> [music] [music]

>> Whe [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> We get deep. We get, you know, we get [music]

we get diva. We get deep know. [music] Hey guys, Yanik Ishmail. Great to have you guys on the show. Um, what a day for the market. I just, you know, had Dan Helden here. You know, he's giving me his Bitcoin and SpaceX bull thesis. He's pretty much 5050 allin those two assets. I'm obviously huge Hyperlid bull, Zcash bull, Bitcoin bull. I mean, we've got this framework here of onchain businesses with really good tokconomics and store of value assets as this barbell of outperformance and I think there's a lot more research and analysis that can be done on the onchain business

side and that's where you see people doing work on it and I've seen both your work on hyperlquid and pump and lighter and etherfy and pawns and all these you know assets and then you've kind of just got the bitcoins the zcashes the golds of the world that are kind of just these like reflexive store of value kind of like you know you could call them a money asset and so that's the framework I'm currently using to try to outperform the market curious your thoughts curious your takes also it's your both you know first time on the show so quick intro would would be awesome and uh thanks for coming on >> thanks so much for having us Andy let let me maybe kick it off uh yeah I I joined Bitwise about seven months ago as part of uh the acquisition of course one

uh It's been a been a wild ride since then. Uh focused on our onchain uh asset management business line, you know, particularly vaults and everything DeFi. Um calling in from Berlin. So that's why the brightness on my side is a bit less than than what Ish has. U but yeah, great to be here and and thanks so much for for having me. My name's Ishmile. You can call me Ish. I joined Bitwise uh late last year. I'm on the research team. Uh I make all the presentations you may have seen Matt Hogan delivering at uh various conferences and webinars. It's great to be here.

>> Love it. So Ish, why don't we start with you? What's your take on my barbell investing approach? Am I wrong? Am I right? I mean, my my portfolio is ripping, so I I know I'm right, but let's get into the nuances here. What's happening? >> Yeah, Andy, I totally think you're right. I think what we're seeing like in the present and over the coming years is this tsunami of capital coming on chain stable coins tokenized assets. Now where's that going to go? You have DeFi all the apps you're talking about revenue generating businesses with their own tokens like a unis swap Leo and then you have the base layer that that's all happening on Ethereum and Salana. I think a lot of the value from the onchain finance is going to acrue to those businesses. you know, capital is going to seek to be productive. That's

going to generate fee revenue. And increasingly, we're seeing those projects buy back their token, creating a great investment opportunity. And then on the layer one side, that's been a subject of hot debate, right? Like, is ETH valuable? You know, the fees are trending to zero as the network scales up. I think we have to take a different approach in thinking about that though. If Ethereum does become this global settlement layer for onchain finance, I think you have to assign a value to that because all these revenue generating businesses that we're talking about, they depend on ETH to survive. So there's some value to ETH whether that's for staking it, securing the network or they just have to hold it by nature of their business.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean I I would just add for one that uh it still pains me after many years in the industry that you know my emotional well-being is so much tied to the charts being one color over the other >> you know the times when you jump into a call you get out and someone is like oh bitcoin went up 20% you're like what happened uh so those those are good days and good weeks but yeah I think I I totally agree and would echo what what is saying uh I think we've seen that as well specifically kind of on the DeFi side which is you know where I spend a lot of my time that as more and more stable coins come online you know also with these traditional businesses and fintexs and so on uh there's this massive float that is looking for for

productivity and so any apps and that's why I think also you see you know Athena recently like everyone's launching their own sort of neo bank and you know trying to build the super app and and and integrate uh like vertically integrate the stack um because yeah there there is there is this demand for for stable coins and for the seamless uh sort of nature that they that they bring to the table and yeah they're all looking for yields And so all the different protocols that play a part in that in that role I think are generally assets that that we've seen you know do quite well over the last you know couple months and as that adoption continues to grow. Uh but I mean personally on my side I do love Bitcoin right like it's the OG asset I'm with Dan there uh it is

sort of the the ultimate bet uh to towards the future. Um, but yeah, I I I think we're definitely seeing the market pick up and and you know, we see see the craziness around different types of tokenized assets and pairing them with meme coins and there's so much going on these days like it's hard to hard to even follow. [laughter] >> It is hard to follow. It is it is hard to follow and the the speed at which onchain went from like dead like a graveyard to absolute figure P&Ls or unrealized P&Ls on FOMO which obviously we get you know liquidity pools and things was just insane. It was like a month. It was like what the hell. Um but kind of putting that aside, looking to the institutional lens here, do you think the allocators that you guys are speaking to then that you know Bitwise

has these relationships with do you think they'll think about the asset class in a different way? Right. So this barbell, this kind of store value um assets and then this kind of onchain businesses do you think that allocators are still stuck in the old and I don't mean to put any names here. Polka dot, Cardano Ripple um, etc. era, or do you think they've gotten smarter and Hyperliquid ETF kind of shocked the market a bit and Zcash is, you know, shocking the market with Grayscale's ETF that they launched? What do you guys think about that? Like, are are the allocators still stuck in that kind of like old mindset or are they kind of getting smarter, too?

>> I maybe I can take a first stab at this and then and then give it to youish, but I I think they are getting smarter. Um I I think we've seen this um and I was giving a presentation to a bunch of bankers in I think it was May and talking about hyperlquid and they're like oh tell me more about this uh you know this is crazy commodities trading and all this stuff u so I I do think we're seeing that um at least that's what I'm seeing that these institutions are getting more sophisticated um they're starting to hire the right people. It's not just you know some web 3 fluff stuff. Um they're actually trying to understand the technology.

They're trying to understand the businesses behind the the tokens. Um I do think size still matters quite a bit right I think some of these assets are just like too tiny in terms of the trading volume um the availability and the market cap overall. So that's why I think a lot of um institutions start with you know Bitcoin, Salana, Ethereum, Hyperliquids getting up there with these you know high volume uh you know high market cap uh coins and and tokens and I do think always my thesis is that you know people always confused why Cardano and some of these you dinocoins, Ripple etc are still up there but they just have massive distribution right um they're in every neo bank um every sort of like broker has you know started when they started supporting crypto they added the top 10 at the time and you

know Ripple Cardano and others even Litecoin in many cases was there and so there's still this massive distribution and I think you know a lot of them start there but we've seen it uh over the last kind of year that institutions are definitely getting more sophisticated they're trying to understand also with the stable coin and tokenization boom like what's actually happening on chain and how does that sort of play into my thesis? >> Yeah, I could definitely speak to that as well. Uh on the research team, one of the services we offer is responding to client questions within 24 hours. So, I see a lot of what these financial adviserss are interested in over the past few months. A ton of hyperlquid questions. So, you have some savvy investors picking up on the revenue generating buyback thesis. They're able to value it like a traditional equity

that they're used to. And we had one client internationally send us a question. He's looking to allocate a few million dollars and he was asking about pump fund, hyperlquid, and Zcash. Believe it or not, >> my bags >> super bullish signal, I think. But uh by and large we do see a lot of the financial advisors still kind of in the former bucket you described just looking at top 10 crypto assets. They just want to buy an index probably includes Bitcoin, XRP, Litecoin just some of the top basic. >> Yeah, that's what I mean. Like that is so like that's so like the first wave of institutional adoption, right? So it's good to hear that they are kind of you know getting smarter as Yanuk said on the 24hour turnaround research. What are

the top I don't know couple assets that have been hitting the research desk over the last six weeks, eight weeks? >> Six six weeks definitely hyperlquid. We've answered a ton of questions about that. We were getting a ton of stretch and MSTR questions a couple months ago, but those have cooled down. You know, markets digested the whole selling dilemma. >> Um, and I'd say biggest uptick I've noticed recently in the past like two, three weeks is debasement trade questions. It's like national debt 40 trillion. People are looking at Bitcoin and gold.

>> Yeah, man. I mean, Robbie's back in the in the mix now. Rob, good to have you. It's um >> it, you know, Robbie and I were were speak Oh, Rob's not in the mix. Oh, he's back in the mix. Um, you know, Rob and I were speaking, you know, and we're sitting here four, four to five weeks ago in the show. We're just screaming at our audience, guys, allocate, allocate, allocate. I I know it sucks. Trust me, I'm in pain right now. It sucks. It sucks. But Rob, you know, he's been saying he's like, "Look, man. Like in as the midterm comes, every election season, one of the biggest topics is the debt." And what happens is Bitcoin becomes on people's radars, you know, every single midterm and presidential election. And here we are, 40 trillion's a headline number, and then Secretary Treasury Scott Besson starts buying

longdated bonds, you know, pushing us deeper deeper into the problem. And so interesting to hear that the fiat debasement kind of concept is coming up. when you guys are looking at the onchain businesses category, right? How do you think the like how do you think an investor should allocate capital based on like sectors, right? So there's, you know, launchpads, right? Like the ponds and the pumps. You've got per hype and lighter and you can farm, you know, variational points. You got stable coin projects, Athena, Circle Equity, Sky, these types, you know, that are doing well. You've got Dexes, Aer Drrome, Uniswap, a couple others doing quite well. You've got lending, right? A morphos doing quite well. So, you've got

kind of like these individual sectors of the industry now, which is awesome. And you've got very clear leaders. And so, how do you guys think about the upside potential of different sectors right now? And I'll give you a quick quick quick rhetoric. Pump rerated really hard the last two months. Why? investors didn't believe in the durability you could say of pump's revenue and so it was far mispriced in terms of its revenue on an annualized basis compared to hyperlquid that mispricing was the source of the alpha where is the current mispricings or how do you guys think about the sector specific growth >> I could kick it off and then we'll definitely pass it to here I think one area you're going to see a lot of growth

is decentralized finance like vault specifically um as stable coins come on chchain that's a lot of like institutional and corporate capital. They're going to keep it on chain. They don't want to offboard and they're going to look for places to to earn their yield. So, I think that's going to place a lot of upside for apps like a and especially Morpho, other ones like Oiler um and so forth. and Yannik, he's taught me everything I know about vaults, so he can definitely speak deeper on that >> with with DeFi as a sort of like general category, you know, seeing a lot of traction and and I mean, you know, RWA's tokenized stocks all the rage right now and and I read somewhere that I think just in the last month alone, there's

been like 900,000 new holders of tokenized stocks on Robin Hood, which is which is insane, right? But like with all these new assets also, there comes the need for liquidity, right? You know, you talk about Dexus. Um maybe you want to land against your stocks over time you want to do right we do a lot of like on our vault side uh we just launched a vault yesterday on more for that lens purely against RWAS um that that we underwrite um but then also with these RWAS you have liquidity concerns right I think there's a lot of these building blocks that people need to need to understand uh and that makes all these components that make this you know earn product so to say that every every neo bank and and fintech and so on is is launching and that Coinbase with their earn kind of pioneered early on um to

make to make that happen, to make that work. And so I think there's still some alpha there. I think it's also still out who's ultimately going to be the winner across these different categories, right? Um because I think also that you know, lending against your equities, tokenized equities, uh is a slightly different, you know, way of like doing things than than what you do with crypto uh you know, collateral, Bitcoin, ETH, you know, highly liquid. And then like RWA is on the other side again as well. So I think there's there's a lot of alpha in kind of understanding how all these different building blocks to make these you know kind of DeFi products work uh fit together um and and with that kind of you know building a thesis around DeFi ultimately and and and a basket there. But I think you you know

you mentioned the these other categories as well and I do think um it helps to be you know kind of to be betting on the high growing or or like you know high growth verticals within crypto that are real businesses that's that see volume and I think you know to your pump example it's always darkest before dawn you know at at the at the depth of the bare market everything looks kind of bad and that's generally when it's a good good time to buy. >> I'm loving the hyperlquid uh purr cat there in the background. Rob, you got anything here? >> Yeah, I mean a couple things. I you know we've been spending a lot on macro and that that's kind of another conversation. But you know as far as the vault complex that you're describing we've chatted with a couple other guys from the Bitwise team. Matt Hooan has

come on and said you know he was the ETF guy. Now he thinks vaults are like the new ETFs. And then we even you know can extend that further and think that AI powered vaults are like the new financial advisors like on steroids. um in that stack like vaults have an entire supply chain from curators to infrastructure to the chain to the assets inside the vaults to maybe the AI managing the vaults. My question is where does where do you guys think value acrews because we've seen how the you know the block space supply chain the data availability supply chain like we've gone through these segment these market segments and these evolutions and we've seen how it sometimes it flows to the chain level the protocol level now we've seen more and more data that says

it's flowing to the application level more upstream closer to the end customer where do vaults position value acrruel how is value flowing in the vault supply chain >> yeah uh Um I mean you know given that we're curated I want to say it acrru to us in a way right uh and and and the value that we bring. Look I think um I think it's it's still it's still early right and uh I I do think that we've seen already over the last you know kind of or just this year how much curation and kind of the vault landscape has has changed from you know your pure kind of like overcolateralized crypto lending to you know underwriting these tokenized assets that bring so many different sort of you know trafi concepts to crypto. Um and so I think when it comes to to where

the value occurs, of course there's the the the lending market layer, right? And I do think there's a lot of value here for sure. Um and you know there's a lot of money to be made. I mean you just look at avis revenue looks pretty good, right? Um I do think as that space sort of evolves uh and as the assets that we're dealing with evolves which which we're seeing now um other parts of the st become much more important. And I do think, you know, not just shilling our own book here, but I do think the curation and risk management aspect of all of it is is quite important because, you know, we've seen most of the hacks uh and issues over the recent month being operational or, you know, kind of things that aren't purely smart contract risk anymore. And uh you know, with RWA

specifically, understanding the the credit aspect of it all, underwriting this oper underwriting the operational part of it, and then also the crypto and cryptonative, you know, smart contract side of it and and understanding DeFi. I think AI is also, you know, how are they're going to for now at least how is an AI agent going to do an operational diligence call, you know, on on a new asset. So I think, you know, I do think the distribution layer, as we've seen with with Robin Hood, right? Absolutely massive distribution will always be king in the end and and will have, you know, a lot to say about where where where ultimately the deposits flow as well. I do think the risk management and sort of, you know, onchain asset management layer is something that we're quite excited about and I think that extends beyond SP. Uh I think like last week we

launched uh automated token portfolios uh with with tokenized stocks from Coinbase, right? Like these are things where you know these things trade 247 and being able to basically build thematic portfolios kind of in a few hours basically and have people you know we can talk about something cool here and we can have a a model portfolio that you know kind of allows you to invest in this right what are you saying like SpaceX and gold uh and have a trade tomorrow right I think there's there's a lot of value here and then I think the lending markets verdict still out but I do think a lot of value Chris there as well >> and and Yanik we saw you know the launch of this ATP product which is very cool as a result of tokenized equities and building on top of that primitive. Maybe you could help unpack what is the

difference between a vault and an automatic trading portfolio like depositing into a vault versus buying an automatic trading portfolio. What is the difference? >> Yeah. So a vault is ultimately just a smart contract that that pulls capital and then the curators and sometimes you know uh uh you could ultimately do it yourselves as well but but probably not something you want to do sets the parameters on what the vault does with that capital that is allocated to it and the very classic version is you lend this into into lending markets that are over collateralized where people you know borrow into and then the yield gets passed back to the vault. Um there's various different types of vaults as well. You can also not do lending vaults and vault do vaults where you hold

assets that are yielding and pass that yield through. I think this is kind of a [clears throat] space that is rapidly evolving. And then the automated token portfolios um these are ultimately smart wallets where you keep the uh tokenized equities in your wallet and you subscribe to a strategy that we deliver. So it is much more sort of like similar to a model to portfolio in the traditional sense where you have an asset manager create you know a thematic basket of of stocks. Um and then you can subscribe to it and if you decide to just you know sell some of your stocks you know the the strategy is basically done but you can resubscribe and and go in and out of different uh different strategies that we deliver. Um but yeah ultimately the stocks sit in your own wallet and I think that's that's pretty

cool especially when you talk about you know where we come from in crypto non-custodial things. um you know being able to basically get a professional asset management to design a strategy that for for you ultimately that you can subscribe to and that gets automatically rebell but where you keep the assets in your wallet. Um, that's why we're quite excited about it and just the speed of it all as I mentioned, right? Like, you know, you you see the the Olympics, the robots Olympics from China. It's funny, it's going viral, right? Um, doing an ETF around this is going to take half a year. Uh, doing sort of a an ATP around Chinese robotics like can go live tomorrow.

>> Yeah. Um, for Morpho as the platform hosting the vault. There's money to be made for dinari ando who are issuing those tokenized stocks and then of course the base layer whether that's base maybe acrewing value to Coinbase or Ethereum acrewing value to ETH.

>> Very cool. I mean, the whole ETH story could do a whole podcast in of itself. I mean, there's Ethereum, the chain, and then I mean, we've got the ARC guys on later, and Lorenzo is just I mean, he's going back and forth on whether ETH and Salana actually ever need to make any money versus some of these other smaller applications and chains that don't really have the same level of Lindy versus those two. Guys, we'll have to run this back in another week or two, get some more time. Um, I I know we're a bit behind schedule here. I really appreciate you guys coming out. Uh we had a a smaller team than usual here at the roll up on the production side. So we're running around here but but really appreciate >> you guys are awesome though.

>> Yeah I appreciate it man. Um it's a beautiful day in the city. You guys look great. You you can get some rest yik and ish. It's great to meet you and would love to run this background. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thanks guys. >> All righty guys. Bye. Cheers. Stay bullish. Tell the institutions to keep buying pump hyperlquid and Zcash baby. How about that, Rob? >> Hyper pump. >> Ish goes the three assets that we've heard the most about in the last six weeks are hype, pump, and Zcash. It's like, look, I look at my portfolio. I'm like, hm, they keep going up. [laughter] What could be happening here?

>> Oh, yeah. >> What could be happening here, guys? >> Yep. You got you got that right. Um, what I miss, man? >> I mean, yeah. I mean, you you you missed a lot, to be honest. I mean, I came on the show and I just was as euphoric as as one could be. And then we had Dan Hell come in here and he basically gave me the investing lesson of a lifetime. >> How so? >> I mean, you know, he's probably eight, nine figs, mid eight figs at least, right? and he comes on and just schools me on everything you need to do to be able to hold positions long-term in size, concentration, practical versus

rational investing. His two biggest bets, Bitcoin and SpaceX. I am 100% taking profits on per on the next hype pump to 100 or whatever. It's probably coming imminently. I think maybe like this weekend. And I'm selling probably five to 10% of my per position. It's been a good trade. It's stressful. and I'm putting it all into SpaceX. >> Likely gonna open a different brokerage account. >> I'm gonna study SpaceX the asset to become one of the top 3% of people in the world who know about SpaceX and I'm going to put sell 10% of my purr put it in that Dan Held got a entry under hundred billion

mark right now is about 2.5 trillion. He got that entry in the pre-market. >> Yeah. >> VC round in 2020, 2021. >> Yeah. >> He thinks it's going to be at a hundred trillion dollar market cap in 20 years. So about a 30x from here in 20 years. >> And [snorts] so I'm like, "All right, more like a 40x." >> So I'm like, "All right, put 100 grand in and I'll see you guys in 2035 and in 2045." and let me put it in a different brokerage account.

>> Let me study the asset, make a thesis, and never touch it. >> When you think about the bulk of crypto assets out there, >> yeah, >> you know, there's two that come to mind, maybe three, maybe four that sort of separate from the rest of the pack in terms of longevity. >> Yeah. >> And potential time horizon. >> Sure. And if you're curious, I mean, I'm thinking Bitcoin, Zcash, Ethereum, and Salana are like, and again, you kind of and in that order in terms of longevity.

>> Yep. >> Obviously, you know, that's kind of on one side of the barbell. On the other side of the barbell, you know, you've got Hyperlid with seemingly right now the most longevity. Maybe there's a couple of other companies >> liquid whale himself here. >> Absolutely. And so just to just to say that you know it used to be the case that Bitcoin and crypto was like the most forwardlooking industry but there are equity companies out there that also have this sort of uh like time horizon thinking in terms of decades and not you know weeks or months like a lot of a lot of other >> assets. A real quick thing and we'll get and we'll get Ryan up is um so the cost to send matter to space

was about I think it was $20,000 per kilogram. SpaceX has brought that down to I believe a $100 per kilogram. A 2,000x reduction >> in cost. >> 2000x. And so the thesis is this continuous reduction in cost to send matter to space >> is going to lead to this massive massive boom. And we'll we'll get into that more. I have been, you know, very patient and I it's been a hell of a tech day here on the show. So, um, yeah, >> I've, uh, I've told you I got, uh, a buddy that works at SpaceX, and so every time I'm with him, I I try to learn as much as I can, and yeah, they've got the first mover effect, but, also bringing the cost down allows them to step in and

be the place where that value occurs. Um, but you're absolutely right. We've got Ryan in the back. Uh, I'm ready to chat to 100. Let's let's bring him up. There he is, Ryan. Welcome to the show, man. Good to have you live. Um, what a day for the markets. What a what a last couple months for Hyperlid. Um I know it's not your first time on the show, but I was telling a story today about how I was in Hong Kong and I called Robbie after a VC dinner hype. It was the night before hype launch and I'm like, Rob, I just got off this dinner. I didn't sign the terms and conditions for the airdrop. I'm going to be generally generationally sad if we don't do this.

We need to buy a lot of hype on the first like hour. And uh fortunately we bought never enough and so here we are waiting for a h 100red obviously you know you know can't always time everything perfectly so in you know hindsight's 2020 but here we are Ryan um I know you're a huge hype bowl and great to have you back >> yeah appreciate having Nick on mans are good >> yeah guys let's let's pull a quick standby Thank you so much. Real quick here.

[music] [music] [music] We get we get know we get we get we get we know we get

We get deep. We get deep know. [music] >> All righty. Uh Ryan's gonna get reset up. Sorry about that, guys. Um, so Rob to continue the SpaceX thing. So yeah, I mean that's the thesis is the cost of matter going to space rapidly declining allows for a TAM that is massive. And then Dan Dan goes into like man Starlink revenue is set to increase by double for

the next five years. So that's two to the power of five. This is an exponential growth. Then you then you start talking about what they're doing in space with regards to the um there's anti-uclear weapon technology that Elon is developing that SpaceX is powering that uh is in you know is inherent to the US and so now it's like a national security thing for SpaceX to really develop his technology and so there is like so much learning that I need to do and so you know Nate obviously um you know my my buddy and he you know he's he's S&P and he is uh NASDAQ and he's Bitcoin right

that's it you know Dan goes diversification is the price that you pay for ignorance right but for a guy like that he's not looking at the markets he's you know he's he's he's doing just fine >> and so um he's texted me the last couple weeks like yo I'm going in SpaceX >> going in SpaceX in size I'm going in SpaceX I'm taking 10% of my portfolio. I'm calling it the the Nate fund and I'm going in SpaceX. And maybe I'm doxing him here and maybe he doesn't want to be doxed. I'll I'll have to talk to him about it. But here we are, right? And so um >> I hear you.

>> I'm just thinking to myself, I'm like, Dan's telling me that he's 50/50 Bitcoin SpaceX. >> Wow. >> And some of my smarter friends are getting into it. Why am I not in it? Well, you know, so you know, the the Tesla humanoid robot thing definitely got potential, you know, >> and that's the other thing is the robots is the robot TAM is massive and this is all going to be SpaceX and Starlink powered. >> Starlink's going on planes, >> right?

>> Starlink is everywhere. >> Well, it's space data centers. I've also heard that they're talking >> that, you know, this whole thing in space. So, it's just like this is like a multiaceted thesis from >> Yeah. I mean, they've got the retail uh Starlink Wi-Fi connection service, but I've heard and I don't know if it's a regulatory hurdle or a technical one, but there is some event horizon that they will cross that will turn Starlink into cellular service. So, not Wi-Fi, but he said it's like a telecom play too for all the robots. They'll be plugged into SpaceX cell service for so that they always have connection wherever.

And that's also going to be Yeah. Like like you'll have you'll have a SpaceX or a Starlink phone service instead of uh whatever else. Ryan looks a lot better in the back. I think he's good to go. If we could send him into the live room here once he's almost ready. But yeah, Rob, I mean, I'm going to do it. I I'm not ready to I I think there's a rush in the sense that like SpaceX has kind of, you know, been dumped, right? But like and it's pumping. It's up 7% today, right? So, it's at 150, but I think anything under I think anything under 150 is great. And I think anything under 200 will be a generational play. Um, but I'm not in a rush to sell per necessarily, but I do have a good bit of

short-term capital loss that I can account for this year. So, if I can get that amount, equate that out, even that out, and then do a SpaceX long-term hold, I think I think I'll be happy about it. I think I'll look back in like 10 years and be like, I had a conversation with a guy who was worth eight figs, nine figs, and he told me to buy and hold SpaceX. I did a bunch of research. I built my own thesis, and I'm glad I did. You know what I mean? >> One of those feeling things, you know? >> Yeah. I I think the uh the part about developing your own thesis is important. >> Yeah. because I mean there's people that have looked like they've been invincible through the years um but you know they get taken down inevitably right so everyone's sort of mortal but if you can

you know take something that someone is saying and then use it to pair with your own thesis and your own conclusions then I think it's a cohesive mental model and if you can get multiple perspectives to synchronize around one thing typically and that's just the scientific method I mean science is literally just a hypothesis if you can repeat the hypothesis um and get a repeatable conclusion, it's more likely to be correct. So I think if you can repeat a thesis and see it from multiple perspectives and arrive at a similar conclusion, then it is more sound thinking. So yeah, I I like it and I like that it's got a long event horizon because I think that gives it a lot of room to run. It's almost like the question of, you know, if you generate

revenue, it'll never be enough and then you're always kind of like chasing something. Like the idea is that you don't get uh uh, you know, to the top of the hill like the cisphus, you know, pushing the boulder. If you if you end up, you know, generating revenue, that's the top of the hill. The boulder rolls back and crush you and then you're just you're just always chasing it. But if you can put the top of the hill far enough out into the future, then you have this really monumental journey of just slowly but surely pushing that boulder up and up the hill and it never rolls back and crushes you.

>> Y >> So I think um having a thesis that's very far out I think is helpful in some sense. If you have the conviction, if you have the conviction in the team and the product and the vision to ultimately see it through >> then and and Elon is like kind of the one person that I think people trust to kind of fulfill this vision. But absolutely, I mean the thing is so multiaceted. It's so like timeless in a certain sense. Yeah. >> Um that I could absolutely seeing it be a generational >> I mean I'm done. I'm going to do more research. >> Oh the other thing the other thing and I'm curious actually if Dan help I want I'm going to this is a question. Did Dan, because obviously he thought a lot about this, did he say anything about like the merger, like the inevitable

like Elon merger, Elon, Tesla, SpaceX, Neuralink boring company all under one umbrella? Cuz it seems like that's also part of the thesis that if you know SpaceX ends up, you know, being like if Tesla robots are the biggest customer of SpaceX, they just merge, right? And now Twitter, like Twitter is of >> crazy. I mean this thesis the SpaceX thesis is insane. I mean it is it is it yeah it's the one man. It's the one. I I feel it. I I don't think it's going to be instinct but I think it could be a quick multibagger. When I say quick in stock terms I mean in three years you

could be up a couple X's from here. But then I think the real exponential is like you look back at this chart and the thing's trading at like $5,000 in 2040 and you're like, "Holy I was in at 150 >> with a decent size." So >> it it's tough to forecast a 100red trillion market cap by 2035. >> I mean a hundred trillion dollar market cap. The other thinking is like the network and wealth effect of um the network and wealth and compounding effect of getting things in space, right? Space has a lot less friction, a lot less drag, right? Think about like

literally like the atmospheric pressure getting thing like you got to break out in break out of the atmosphere to get it into space. But once you get it there, there's no atmospheric resistance to move stuff around. So you actually end up with a lot less friction to do useful work. So that's why they're trying to put data centers in space and satellites and all these things. And once you start getting into all the Mar I mean >> I mean Eli was talking about occupying Mars, right? Like back in, you know, for >> you love this stuff, huh? How about Zcash 964, Lighter 4.3, Hype 84.4, Bitcoin 81.3, >> uh Chain Link 11.8, 8 pump pushing up.

VVV 17.2. I'm getting long on that one. I mean, how about this, Rob? >> Love to see it. I think we've got Ryan. >> Ryan. Ryan, how you doing? Can we get a quick test here? >> It's uh good now. >> Much better. >> Sure. We're dialed. We're so dialed. All right. So, um, as I was saying, man, I was looking back at my earliest buys, Robbie and I, of hype kind of just like reflecting on it. And obviously, you know, we didn't play it as well as we could have or should have. ultimately, you know, you go through two 80% downturns in an asset that has regulatory headwinds and you're tweaking out on and the markets, you know, 1010 happens and you're like, "Oh my gosh."

So, you know, but through and through we've been tracking this asset for well over two years now and it's pretty much been the backbone of our portfolio and, you know, fortunately the outperformance of our portfolio in the bear and, you know, we have the receipts. I'm actually going to post the the buy receipt here today just to make sure that I can back up my claims. But Ryan, I mean, you guys flip the tides and you're a good friend of Chris Berniski and um you know, he's told me about some of the work that you guys do and I mean, you're just a huge hype bull and so I just what a time. I had Jake Travinsky here in the Empire State Building for recording yesterday.

Today, Jeff puts out the post about HIPP3 Star, which is a new HIPP3 primitive for Hyperlid to come to the US. Let's start there. What where are you when Trump says hyperlquid? What is your reaction? And then let's get into HIPP3 star. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I was actually sitting in the same seat and I remember I was on the phone with uh my co-founder Dan and we're on the phone and I get like a I get like a bunch of messages from my team. They're like, "Yo, hype is at like $70." I'm like, "What? 59?" I was checking it minutes ago and it was just going vertical and we had no idea what was happening. And then they said Trump did hyperlid on on TV. So a really crazy moment. I mean on one hand uh back in

back in uh in July or or August Hyperlid first released like uh the stars on their test net their public test net. >> Yep. Y >> and I remember we looked at that and we're like all right you know what this is this is deliberate. You only put something on a public test net if you want the public to start experimenting with it and prepare. So we saw that and I remember I ran some analysis and I saw that uh at most it takes about six months for hyperlquid to go from something that's in public test net to mainet. Now on average it's about 3 months. So we kind of got the sense that this was in the making and this was coming. uh we didn't expect Trump to go out and and tweet and [laughter] basically just just say hyperlquid at the press conference but uh yeah we were

obviously prepared for that and and that was something that you know we'd been talking about for for quite a bit of time because this was like one of the most common criticisms or skeptics case that people would have for hyperlquid every single time I talk to them like you know what this sounds good I see the numbers I see the growth but what happens when the US does XYZ right and now that that's lifted I mean now it's actually sky's is the limit US capital markets are by far the largest and most important capital markets in the world. So, you know, obviously uh great moment for Hyperlid and and obviously very bullish. >> Yeah, man. And so, has your has your thesis maybe just kind of walk us through when you took the position when when that was, what the thesis was, and then maybe now with this kind of updated

news, right? Every good investor updates their thesis based on new information. What is your updated thesis and kind of outlook based on this new information to you know kind of re rewind the clock a bit you know very succinctly what was the thesis when was this and then now kind of like with this new info how do you think about it now >> before and after. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I remember on the on on day one when when it launched the thesis was a lot more simple. It was okay this is valued at three billion about $200 million run rate. It's growing like crazy. uh no one owns it at this point other than people who got air dropped. The only way you could buy it is you had to bridge to hyperlquid which itself was like this like strategic master stroke because it's like if you

want to buy the coin you got to use the exchange so you get new users in the process. Every single fund that wanted to buy it had to go bridge to buy it and uh there was no people had pre-existing allocations. So we thought it was a great setup. Uh it was already at that time like the fourth highest revenue generating application or even blockchain in in the industry. But I mean there was like so much garbage that was ahead of it in the rankings. I mean it was just like okay wow this could go three three to fivex easy and and this would be you know still dramatically undervalued. So that really was the the the kind of setup that we saw and you know maybe in the background we'd always been developing this thesis around like the the everything exchange idea that you would

be able to trade any asset in the world on a on a single you know permissionless blockchain. Uh and then also derivatives were also this big thesis we had for a long time as well. So that is what the thesis was originally. Uh I didn't expect that when we first bought it then that this is something that would be like a you know generational hold or or anything like that. So, so really when we started to get that that conviction was sometime in early 2025 and you know really what it was is I remember spending some time uh talking to the uh the the trade team uh or unit team and I remember that helped me get conviction on you know what like so many people I think rightfully so had been thinking about this category of perks within the context of onchain right like you want

to win onchain you want to dominate onchain the actual real goal is to like penetrate all of global finance first starting with the centralized exchanges like Coinbase and Bybit and Binance and then you know ultimately CME and and everything like that. So the actual number we started to track was not the market share versus all the onchain competitors like that was almost irrelevant at that point. It was already like the majority of the market. It was actually market share versus Binance and PBIT and that started to trend higher and it just continues to trend higher and it's at all-time highs right now.

That's and it's been an incredible story. Uh so that's what it was back then. I think where it is today is uh as you start to see the pieces fall in place for with portfolio margin with the spot markets obviously with HIPP3 uh and regulate HIPP3 and HP4. The way we see it now is that this is going to be a venue where you can uh have virtually any asset as your as your margin and use it to trade virtually any asset that Hyperl supports. Like that is like the ultimate vision for for Hyperlid. like you will be able to trade anything using anything as collateral from anywhere in the world and I think that's a powerful vision. Uh I think that's something that is unique to blockchains and that you know you can

actually have all this living on a single substrate that anyone in the world can access and I think that we're still so early in executing on this. I mean, even if you just look at uh just like the pers alone compared to global CFD volumes or retail options, I mean, you're talking about we haven't even got to like 1% of these these these categories and already just look at the the revenue that we're generating from that. Uh so, yeah, obviously very excited. And maybe one last thing I'll say is that, you know, I think it's easy to talk about whatever is like the latest data point or upgrade or event that happened for Hyperlid, but one of the things that I think that Hyperlid is starting to I think almost like educate people is that when you actually have an asset and project that compounds, you

don't need to necessarily be looking at every single data point. And it's often better to just focus on the bigger picture of what is happening here, right? Because I I get it like in the past it really was this game of you know merrygoround circular reference of we're just like flipping these coins back and forth and the second that bitcoin goes down it all just goes to zero. That is just not where we are anymore right like we actually are on this trajectory where every single year you can expect that there'll be more people trading on blockchains the volumes will go up and these businesses will make more revenue. This is a secular story and one of the biggest available in financial markets.

I love it and we totally agree with regards to like the cyclical thinking versus kind of like you know overfixating on the monthly revenue right like you know when hype was trading like 40 prior to the circle news right people were like oh the revenues are down you know they're way down and I'm like dude look at the HIP3 share of the trading volume I don't give a damn about the revenue this is all that matters to me at this moment and maybe it's just you know a different data point to kind of fix your bias you you you know you can always do that but like the bigger picture as you say is traditional markets are moving on chain and that is going to continue to happen.

>> Ryan, you said the data point to watch when this thing first got off the ground was uh market share versus centralized exchanges and and you know kind of in that after picture you pointed to like percent of you know traditional derivatives volume. Is that the the metric now? Like what is what is the number one metric that you're watching that as long as it compounds then we're all going to make it? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't think there's any there's any one metric, but you're right. It's like it's a mosaic of different metrics, right? So, it it is looking at share versus say like Binance and Coinbase and Bybit bid and all those people. It is looking at uh you know what percent of global CFD futures options volumes that Hyperlid is servicing. It is just looking on an

absolute basis. It's looking at you know the volumes and if they're accelerating or not. Is revenue accelerating or not? Are there more people that are depositing into Hyperlid? are the average account balances to hyperlquid growing as well like the these are all metrics that matter and so long as those keep compounding. Uh you will have like price girations you know up and down but you know the trajectory like the the floor will keep rising because there actually is real intrinsic value here. >> Yeah. So Ryan you know on the note of Hyperlid but kind of like generally getting into where I'd like to go which is this kind of social trading and onchain thesis that you put out kind of in the middle here. We've been growing this thesis and the way we've been allocating our portfolio for the last

six months has frankly been onchain businesses that produce good revenue with durable TAM and you know longstanding ability to survive with really good tokconomics and then store value assets. So, I mean, Robbie and I, and we've been preaching this to our audience, you know, day in and day out, we're Bitcoin, Zcash, gold, you know, and we're hype, lighter, and then we've started to expand the onchain kind of revenue producing application. I mean, I was just saying we miss pawns, unfortunately, but we're in pump, right?

And so, we're kind of like expanding that pie, but this has been like our framework for the for out performance. And you know, uh, we've been right so far, but obviously, you know, things will change. But the infra, the L1's, the L2s, all this kind of like middle stuff, we're kind of leaving it out of our portfolio. We're just thinking about these kind of barbell approach. Curious your thoughts on that specifically, you know, Zcash and kind of the rise of these other onchain revenue producing businesses in lending, in the vault space, in the deck space, stable coin space. Are we thinking about this the right way? Do you agree? do you disagree? You know, what are your thoughts on the store value side with kind of Zcash maybe getting into that conversation now and then some of these

other onchain revenue producing businesses that you know investors are starting to allocate to um out of this valuing them like equities kind of institutional allocator mindset. >> Yeah, for sure. I I'll start with the the onchain businesses producing that they're basically money makers like you know I think in in our industry it it's like this thing that we have to mention to people when we're talking to friends outside if I talk to my friends in finance like I now have to like hey listen we have businesses that make money now and they're like dude that's like the purpose of capitalism like what are you talking about you need capital to like that that's the point of this like this whole economic system that we've created uh but for so long we just pretended like it wasn't the case right

like all you need to do is just pump some fake metric and then price would go up. And you know, for a long time this actually worked because there were so few people that owned these assets purely from a flow's perspective of people coming in like these things were just going to repric, right? And I just don't think it's the case anymore. Like we're not the only game in town where, you know, this is only place this only speculative outlet for for for money to flow into. So now we actually have to prove that this stuff is worth owning. And I think the revenue generation to be honest is maybe like a subset of what I think matters which just like fundamentals because there are some businesses that you know maybe aren't actually returning any of the the money they make back to the token holders and

that's totally fine. There's different place ways to, you know, allocate capital. And this is something that, you know, the the Morpho founder Paul has been saying, you know, where that thing's been growing like a hockey stick that alltime highs, loans are standing at all time highs and like really in a non-specular category. And he's like, listen, like why would I even bother uh turning on a fee switch and then returning it to token holders when I can use it for growth? Now, that decision is not going to be the same for every business, right? Like for some it actually does make sense to start returning it. For some, it doesn't. Uh maybe there's like these weird dynamics with like certain assets like maybe like hyperlquid where you know this buyback is just literally it's like just programmatic on chain like this is just how it works. It's like similar to like

Salana or Ethereum where programmatically it's just taking some of the the money it makes and burning it right. Um but anyways point being is that I think what matters is just growth. what matters is that you know there's like value being created and and that is what I think what is most important thing and this is good at the end of the day because it kind of in a way makes our all of our jobs easier because I mean granted there's always going to be some people uh or some assets that can come along and when the market's hot like this any anything can make money and there's a lot of garbage that's going up right now but it does make our jobs easier when it seems like for the most part the flows are really concentrated into a small number of things that are working and I think

that's one of the reasons why you see so much uh so much so many commonalities across all these the portfolios that all this for having uh which which could could be a bad thing if like this is like you know this is like later in the cycle and there's no more money coming into crypto but I think because at least from my perspective we're so early in the cycle and you know maybe as natives we're uh very allocated I I don't I still don't believe that's the case I mean there's a lot of people that are waiting on the sidelines for like this October bottom the world is underallocated to crypto. I mean, >> crypto sucked for the past like two years. Like, no one's been buying this thing since the Trump memecoin. Like, no one owns this stuff. The second that you know, I mean, even right now, like you

talk to, you know, a wide variety of people from institutional investors to retail to like just random friends. I mean, people just aren't even interested in this. Like, I was talking to a friend last night about this. He's like, "Bitcoin is the same price as it was like a few months ago." And I'm like, "Yeah, you're right. they just don't really care. Uh so I think there's still like ways to go as far as like people getting uh getting interested and and allocated again. >> Yeah. And then Ryan, just real quick on the ease of investing, I we've been saying the same thing where it's like it's actually much harder to be a founder we think right now because there's been a lot of founders that uh were able to get by in crypto due to the lack of fundamentals. But now it's actually much harder to compete because

there's like >> investors are saying look if hyperlquid and lighter and pump and uh morpho are doing X and you're going you know onetenth of X why would we even consider looking at your project right there's a there there's much obvious easier you know winners to allocate to and obviously there's a lot of nuances there but it's almost it's interesting how it's potentially easier to be an investor in crypto right now than it ever has been in terms of asset selection but much harder to be a founder and you know, demand the attention and capital that comes with this because you're going up against Jeff Yan, >> you're going up against Paul Frambaugh.

Yeah. You're going up against Stanie. You know, it's not like you're going up against the little cipher punk guy who just raised 10 million, you know, to launch a new L1. And so, >> wanted to get your take on the store value side of the barbell. Zcash, Bitcoin, this kind, you know, you know, there's there's a lot happening there. A lot more reflexivity and no fundamentals. There's no data points that you have to look to. just kind of like a mimemetic property of private money is good you know if it goes higher it's even better right so talk to us about Bitcoin Zcash and that kind of that side of the barbell >> yeah uh so my personal view is that the store value market is winner or winners take all uh and I think we can see that empirically just throughout history over

like thousands of years of history you look at the the metals it's gold number one at like 40 trillion and then silver is far far far far behind and after that there's just nothing right and I don't see a reason why it would play out uh different in in this asset class you know one of the core I think premises of blockchains is that all of this is global and permissionless it's a it's a free market it's an open market for all these assets to compete on their own merits right and I think in an open market there will only be one or two that rise to the top one of them I think is going to be Bitcoin which which is I think an obvious take at this point and it has like this benefit of having been

first this like immaculate conception 21 million I mean I don't I don't even think it's worth repeating we all kind of get the Bitcoin thesis outside that uh I've always thought that the most likely candidate to be a winning source of value would be whatever is the base asset of the blockchain that has the most economic activity which likely is a smart contract platform whether it's Ethereum Salana Hyperliquid whatever ever it might be. Uh it makes the most sense to me that that would be the case. And why is that? It's because well, one I think idea behind like a store of value is you need a lot of people or money. You need a lot of people that money money is ult like you need a lot of people that want to own it. You want you need a lot of people that want to

accept it. You need this asset to be deep and liquid. Like you need this asset to be used as collateral. All different things. And that happens most uh from what we've seen on a smart chop contract platform. Uh when you look at something like Zcash, uh I think that the original cipher punks that were involved in creating this back in that like pre 2016 era uh are great. And I'm I'm like very happy that this is because in so many ways over the the years like the the vision gets watered down with each cycle like everyone everyone new coming in just they just care less and less and less. I mean the people who are going on for right now they don't even know they don't even know need to know what a blockchain is. so easy to press a couple buttons and I mean you can

literally go on to FOMO with like your Apple Pay. It can be like a, you know, 15-year-old kid takes his mom's credit card, get $50, go buy a meme for FOMO. You have no idea if it's on Robin Hood or or something like that's just so far away from Satoshi's vision or the Tech Funk [laughter] Vision at all. So, I do think that it's like a good thing that there are some people who care about it. I do think like the current wave of Zcash community members uh probably don't really care about those same values and it's become this kind of like meme almost like institutional meme of >> private Bitcoin >> and but no one's really actually using it as private bitcoin >> or cares about privacy. So for me I've always thought that privacy is a feature where this techn this technical stack

that Zcash has built uh at this point can be implemented on any blockchain. >> Yeah. Uh, and then two, like the actual asset ZEC, I think is a meme. And you can say the same thing about Bitcoin, right? That it's like a meme. Uh, but the difference is that it was just the first one and it's like has like all the deep liquidity and I don't see the reason why we need like another Bitcoin. It just it just doesn't make it doesn't make sense to me. So, that's really where I'm at on Datch. But, uh, you know, listen, like I'm all for assets going up. So [laughter] >> as good as a second sidelined >> well it you know it sounds very similar to a thesis that I heard which is that Monero is the coin people actually use for privacy. Zcash is the coin that

people like to invest in for privacy. >> Interesting. So, but and then just to your to your prior point um just quickly like uh you know the reason you mentioned that money is a network which I think is particularly important because there's network effects and that's part of the reason why these winners compound and you know establish the power law that you described. So yeah, Ryan, this is uh incredible man. Really really appreciate it. You've been >> Hey, we got we got some more here Rob. So the social trading thing, man, you put out this crazy piece and it's like >> this new era of >> social trading and you equated it to >> um the world's largest MMO RPG game >> and you know I'm a Thread Guy fan. You

know in in the bare market we kind of go headtohead. It's like, you know, who gets guests, you know, he's got a big stream, big event, then it's us. And so, you know, we're kind of like on this on a similar streaming journey, right? And, you know, I've watched you on his show and I just constantly see his clips of like everyone's going to be a trader. traders of the new celebrities, you know, done like 10 figs or sorry, 10 million unrealized P&L dumb crayon e eater right now on um it's either pawns or another uh you know I think it's cash on FOMO and it's like dude this guy has publicly just made $10 million in a month. Like what is happening? These guys are making more money than athletes. traders are making more money than athletes and are going to command

the same level of attention as LeBron James. True, false. Give us your like unpack that article a bit. I know we maybe have like 10 minutes or so. Just kind of take us through that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh so in in a way, you know, whether it's it's a typer liquid, pump, salana, it's all pointed towards the same thesis of permissionless global 24 trement rating is a killer application of blockchains. And when you give anyone in the world the ability to create or trade an asset, like you're naturally going to get these like absurd money games that happen every single cycle as more people come onto blockchains. Like I just don't think this is going away.

And like speculation is like is kind of like the zeitgeist. Like this is the moment. We have a we're in a world of rolling bubbles like people creating digital god money printing. Like people are going to continue to speculate, right? So this not going away. Now, here's the thing is like social trading is already a thing. It's been a thing for a long time. Like people go on Twitter, people go on Reddit, they form these communities, they talk to each other, they copy trade with extra steps. The difference is that now you can do this in a single application in a unified experience where you can see all the money people are making live. It's verified and then you can also follow along. And that is what's new. That is what you can only do on a blockchain.

You need to do you need to have a transparent ledger where you can track everyone's P&Ls. You can track everyone's positioning. You can like atomically execute a copy trade at the same time. Like this is this is like this is what blockchains are perfect for. Y >> and I think what makes this so like such a big thing is like last cycle uh let's just say from 2023 to 2025 we knew that a lot of people were making money because people would like post maybe screenshots on Twitter or they talk how much money they make or maybe you see like some random wallet like 0x554 whatever this made you know $20 million buying AI6Z but you never knew who it was and I think now you can attach it to like a persistent identity and you can

see you're right like today. I think it was the first time we saw someone get to, you know, an eight figure P&L on FOMO all time. This is nuts. Like this is going to cause more people to want to onboard and to trade and to follow along and maybe even like learn a little bit of the craft from like these people who are making money. Now, do I think like the memecoin as like this wedge is sustainable? Probably not. Like although we like to pretend like this game is different every single time of you know whether it's Salana or Robin Hood, it's always the same. It's like the zero sum game. we find different ways to like rationalize what we're doing, but it's a zero sum game of >> Yeah, this time it's like meme fly stocks and memes. Um, but Ryan, it sounds like what you're saying is that

uh the social trading component is persistent. The launchpads that are specializing in this memecoin might kind of fade into middleware irrelevance, but because like the social component owns the relationship with the end customer, they could actually do the same thing with stocks and tokenized equities and people get could then copy trade and run up eight nine figure P&Ls verifiably on these social apps. >> Yeah, listen, I I don't think that the the memecoin stuff is going away. In fact, like that was something where I think I've probably been a little bit wrong on because I thought that this was never going to come back and, you know, TV on if this ends up making new highs as a category. But I I just don't think it's going away. Like this is kind of going to stay as like this casino where people go on and you know, it's the best

casino in the world where you can log in from your couch anywhere in the world and then you can make like a million X because you just bought the right thing at the right time. Like that's probably not going away. What I will say though is that I think that the ultimate purpose of this is probably to be a wedge so that you get the people in the door and then over time there's going to be different communities that emerge on these social trading applications that are more tailored to different assets, right? Not everyone wants to be a memecoin trader. So there's I mean currency is today like there's like a lot of people that are on FOMO are now trading per right. A lot of trading social apps are actually not even anything to do with memecoins. they're spraying per >> hyperl liquid or

>> I I think this is only going to become like a bigger thing over time and like I think that is why I'm like so bullish this categories. I think maybe what people are missing is you know and and I see it too like you just see someone's unrealized P&L on some like a liquid shitcoin and it's like they made a million dollars in 24 hours. It's like okay that's not sustainable like okay duh that's not sustainable but but what is actually going to happen is that this is going to expand like this is I mean how long has formal even existed? How long has like pump even existed? Like the the social trading element of it, this stuff is very very early. So if you're thinking like a year year from now, two years from now, especially if we're in an oil market, I mean, this is

only going to get much much much bigger. We're going to have much much bigger uh P&Ls. Like when someone makes nine figures, this is going to be global news that someone made nine figures buying this stuff on chain. I mean, this is like I think only the the beginning of this. So yeah, there there going to be like some some crisis of confidence. Like the first time Robin Hood goes through a crash, there's going to be some some like lost porn on there, you know, some guy down like $5 million 24 hours. But uh yeah, I I just think that this is this is probably just getting started.

>> Yeah. And there's so many elements to this too, right? Like there's the creator awards. So you put a thesis publicly. Like in the past we have paid groups, right? You join a paid group, a discord, and you get to copy trade this expert. Now you just anybody can be the expert, right? And you all you have to have is your P&L as your as your status. And so anybody can like and then you have the referrals. >> So I'm making like 200 bucks a day from some whale that I referred to on on FOMO. He's he's ran up like 400 grand profit. He's he deposited like half a mill and I and he's just trading all the time and I'm just printing from fees.

And so that's not obviously new. You know, this has existed for a long time. But there's creator rewards, which is awesome. And then there's referrals, which is awesome. And then there's this whole leaderboard thing that you mentioned where I can't lie, I saw the leaderboard and I deposited like 10 grand into FOMO. And I was like, all right, well, it's my turn. You know what I mean? Like, it. If dumb if dumb crayon eater can do it, well, I'll be the dumb marker eater and I'll try it, right? And so, you know what I mean? And so, there's so many facets here that >> are like modernizing. And I know this is sounds really silly because we're like pontificating and trying to like intellectualize memecoin trading currently, but it's going to grow and it's gonna expand, but there's so many elements of like modernization of what

already happens on social media. And this is a big part of your piece. What already happens in paid groups, what already literally happens in New York City. I'm literally in the Empire State Building. What what happens down south? It's all in one one place open. And I was showing uh a friend this, right? And you know, they were like, "Well, it's all open like that, like you can just see everyone's balances." >> And they were shocked, right? And I'm like, "Yeah, this is this is it." And >> it was like we're all make, you know, all our friends are making money and you're not. But actually like visible and transparent and verifiable >> and the low liquidity pools, right? For the sake of onboarding people, people

don't understand LP pools. Like if you're coming in, you have no idea that, you know, dumb crayon eater is up $8 million, but the, you know, the pool only has six million in it or 10 million in it or 20 million in it, right? They don't get that. So the numbers just get inflated so quick. >> And so Oh, yeah. Yeah. A lot of aspects here. >> Yeah. the the the greater rewards I think are are very important because you know in a way uh the career rewards I think are almost like a spiritual successor to like paid groups but it's better because you're getting rewarded for actually making money and educating people whereas the paid group thing is like historically it's a scam of people who can't make money and that's the reason why they rely on it and like here's one thing I always would uh tell

people about the soul trading thing because like I think like some of like the the smart smarter traders like the whales be like dude there's no way that I'm going to go trade on on FOMO and I'm going to leak I'm going to leak my alpha. Like this doesn't make any sense, right? And I'm like, you're right. Uh you might not do it, but there's a new generation of people that do want the public track record. And why do they want it? Well, for one, like it gets them fame, which I think is something that many people do want. Uh two, it also allows them to make more money. Like if you're just some guy that's like making all this money on a meme and you're doing it the app, you're actually missing out on a lot of money at this point. I remember I ran the math on Pump's Creator Awards

uh because like they they're like public with it and I I think I want to say that it's like at $2 million per week is what they were paying out, right? So like well over hund00 million a year, which is nuts. That's like nuts. So there's there's going to be people that from the creator awards alone make like six figures, seven figures over the course of >> two million already. >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and here's the thing. It's not that's not even including like the deployer fees if you're creating a memecoin. Pump has already paid out $450 million to those people. It's also not even including like the KO deals that are happening off these platforms where people are getting like absurd deals to go on these apps. I mean there's just so much money these people are. I mean it's actually nuts.

I've heard of like memecoin traders and per being flown out to go to events. I mean there's so much money for people that are trading on these applications. I think it's just only going to encourage more people to take that leap and to build the public track record. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's not going away because I I think that again maybe you're not a memecoin trader, but you might be someone who wants to buy AI equities and you want to do it that way. Uh it's also possible it's not even just about trading. Like I do think if we really think about this long term because right now like trading is like the thing that we're doing, but there's other ways to make money on blockchains. Like he might be the guy who's like I want to go search for high yield credit

opportunities on Morpho and then you like find a bunch of people who follow you into that like that's actually how you you're like the you're like the credit guru on there something do now prediction market I mean I think the product surface is is just like enormous >> it's enormous >> and it's a personal brand thing right it's like uh you know you become you kind of grow your identity based on your track record in your portfolio and you become and then you know one thing that that we didn't talk about and you're correct on the distinction. Anom has made the $2 million from the creator fees of a token, not the creator thesis fees. Those are two two separate things.

Um, but you know, you become this kind of person that's known for, you know, this sector or this idea and then you grow and you grow and you're right, there's a lot of fugazi in financial media. And so when you put your name out there and you put your stake out there and you show that you have done well, you know, the average Joe's crypto guy, the Blockworks researcher, he's up like $3 million. >> I'm like, dude, are you just going to quit your job? Like, if I'm him, I'm I'm putting my two weeks in. I'm like, dude, see you later, Block Works. I got a new career. It's average Joe Crypto.com and like, here we go. You know, you know what I mean? And so, Ryan, I wish we had more time, but um just closing thoughts.

>> Yeah. Yeah, listen. Uh, so I think it's a good point. You know what's funny? Like we we're talking about all these different people on on these soul trading applications and you know, at this point I don't trade meme coins because I'm I'm just focused on on on secrecy. Uh, but I still open up FOMO every single day. And what is the reason why? Because finance is content. Like you see people making money, you see these coins going up, you see the commentary, the discourse. This is content. And there's a lot of people that are similar to me where they might have downloaded one of these applications. In fact, I would actually expect this majority that have downloaded this application. They may not even be trading every day, but they open it up every single day because it's actually entertainment. Like this stuff is like the Tik Tok.

>> It's like hard to turn away. And I just think that this is only going to get more entertaining over time. The crazier games that we come up with and the more people that come on. >> Yeah, man. I mean, this Boner, CTO of the HIMYM stock right now is just I mean, bro, like this this is movie stuff. This is movie stuff. >> Ryan Watkins, hype's breaking out. 85. It's about to go straight to 100, man. Hope you get yourself uh a nice steak dinner this week. Thanks for coming on and appreciate your time and uh congrats on the success and the growth of your brand. We we we've been watching over the last what, five, six years, seeing you grow and uh stoked to have you on again sometime maybe early next year as we get a quick update. I think I think

Q2 next year we're we'll be all pretty pretty happy. >> Yeah, same to you guys, man. And I appreciate you guys having me on again. >> Cheers. All right, buddy. >> Thanks, Ryan. We'll see you soon. >> All righty, guys. As mentioned, the market's breaking out. Looks great. It's been a long show already. Ryan is absolute goat. I mean, I didn't realize that Synracy was buying in day one, too. So they must have been the guys who pushed us from 28 280 them Panta and a couple other funds that that I know of. And so man, I gotta get that screenshot from you, Rob. So after the show real quick, if you could just go into wherever that transaction log is, I need to get a screenshot of that hype buy so

I can post it because I did a clip about it and people are going to say that I'm I'm faking it. We're in this new era, right, of everything's got to be, you know, I need your receipts on chain. I need your receipts. So that's the entire social trading thesis and you know that's that's why it's all verifiable now and you know I think and yeah I mean Ryan had fantastic points opened my eyes to how the FOMO trading thesis can be applied to different asset classes. I think there's a variety of different reasons, personal brand identity, um, creator fees, um, as to why someone might want to do their trades in public, including like look at Bessant >> guys signaling, pure signaling in the bond market, doing his thing in public

so that people follow along. Like this occurs at every single level of the chain. >> Hype is breaking the hell out. W's in the chat. Hit the like, hit the subscribe, guys. Hit the like if you're on YouTube. Hit the like, hit the subscribe. Easiest way to support our channel. W's in the chat. What a show. We are printing today. Hype is flying. Absolutely. Gigascending. Zcash is at 970. We're going to see $1,000 per Ze tonight. Let's go team. Stay bullish. Stay strong. Long and strong. You know where to find us tonight. Tomorrow. Tonight I'll be having a steak. Tomorrow. No show, no show Monday. Enjoy the long Labor Day weekend. Y'all remember what I

was telling you? The suits are going to be texting each other this weekend saying we are underexposed to the industry that everyone hates. The industry that everyone hates that Andy and Rob are full port in. Full freaking port, baby. Let's get it. 970 Ze 85.6 hype breaking out to 100. The road to 150 starts now. The road to 250 starts in Q1 2027. Ladies and gentlemen, it's been the the roll up live from the financial capital of the world. We are absolutely flying. Give us a like. Give us a sub. Thank you for being a part of the show. You guys make it possible. We really, really appreciate you guys. I'm almost done with this Yerba Mate. I'm absolutely fired up. We have another recording to do. It's been a long day. I'm sweating bullets. And

let's get it. Let's get it. [applause] Much love, guys. Peace. >> [music] [music]