Cosmoverse: Where Cosmos Legends are Made

Transcript

but yeah we are live uh we're here in Medellin Colombia and um we're doing a very special crossover episode between epicenter and the interop we're here at Cosmo verse which is the biggest Cosmos conference uh happening right now Cosmos verse ended two days ago and we're gonna do a recap of what's been going on here this week in Medellin I'm very pleased to be with my friend and co-host Sonny agerwald hosted epicenter and uh co-founder osmosis and the man himself the man who made this all possible the guy who

brought us all here hundreds of people to fly um too many in trosito yeah thanks for having me I think the crazy part for me is that we really managed to get everybody to come to Medellin because I know a lot of people that had some concerns about the city about Colombia right when you hear it first time and you've never been here your first thoughts are like oh my God it's dangerous everybody gets kidnapped and Pablo Escobar drags this and that but now people are here and like I hear people they say next week we're going to do it again here I don't want to leave I think everybody is very excited I just found out Sunny wants to see some some hippos here so there's a lot to see a lot of cool fun exotic stuff uh you also have a little story to tell you can see

on your on your Twitter you posted that with the paragliding like there's a lot of cool stuff you can do here and the people are amazing the food is great the city is just beautiful a lot of good bars good parties whatever you want you can find it here except for Beach that's probably the only thing that's missing here but yeah um love love Marine had a great time here at cotton worlds and just thankful that everybody made it here and we had such a great time yeah there was definitely I think there's like concern that a lot of people had I mean I was in Berlin a couple days ago for another conference and like people were talking about hey I got to get private security and even I was thinking about okay do I bring my laptop should I bring my ledgers you know and then like as soon

as we landed as soon as we arrived in the city like all those concerns kind of went away and it was like hey this is like a regular place um it has a it has an interesting history but uh you know as long as you're not like doing anything foolish uh like trying to get paid Talent on Tinder or like scoring some drugs on the street you're probably gonna be fine yeah we wouldn't have done it if we weren't 100 sure how the city is yeah and I used to live here for a year a couple of years ago so that's why I'm I was very confident that everything will be fine and can you leak some alcohol and where the next Cosmo verse is going to be unfortunately it's too early for that and I think I heard some things in general we want to make customers in

places that are that have high demand for crypto but they don't have stuff going on every other week right yeah like for example if you look at Berlin like in Berlin half of the teams are based yeah there's like stuff going on all the time like everybody knows the city um Meridian is exotic but there's 50 million Colombians there's a lot of people that want to get into crypto right we even had the um secretary for Innovation and Technology from the city of Medellin from the mayor's office right and and he even came the second day himself just to listen to the presentation yeah that was honestly one of my favorite talks in the entire thing yeah it's really impressive what they've done like everything that they're doing I mean of course like you know he's kind of pushing an agenda or whatever but like you know it seems very

impressive like all the stuff they're doing here to like help bring Innovation and like connectivity and get at you know have access for people to like learn how to program and things like that super cool yeah I think they want to position Colombia or a median especially as like the software Valley for Latin America and like you could tell from this talk and then there was also another governmental institution they really want to push hard for that and give all the students free laptops for example and like just get them into this internet economy yeah and I think crypto can hopefully absorb a lot of that because it you know people here um if they learn about D5 if they learn about even staking and um having sovereignty for for their financial finances I think it can have a

big impact here right Colombia also has high inflation not as high as Argentina or Venezuela but still um I think it's it's a net positive for the people to at least be aware what exists and you know if they can make another 10 bucks a month farming on osmo then why not it's good for them right so yeah and I think that's how we also look for other places to host Cosmos is to look at places that um have high demand High population yeah maybe a cool city right I think a big factor of success for this year's crossovers was also that medin is just an amazing city right so I think we also want to look at that but yeah we'll see I think that we need a few weeks off and

then we'll travel a little bit and Scout the next the next place yeah so I mean we haven't like properly introduced you guys I mean the people who listen I think to the interop uh know who you are I think maybe on the epicenter's side uh you know some of the some of the OG ethereum people uh perhaps are not familiar with your work and your YouTube channel so yeah who is cryptocito yeah I mean I I started my crypto journey in early 2017 and I've pretty much done everything wrong for two or three years um into the next big thing lost everything uh believed everything a bit naive for a long time but I think everybody has to go through this once um but yeah then when when 2019 came and

actually lived in Medellin here um I I started like I feel like we've bottomed out and I feel like you know we're ready for for the next cycle so I Was preparing for that I was reading a lot I did a lot of events all around the world I did a lot of um research networking I think also talking to people at events physically um is one of the best things and ways to learn about crypto to build up a network and then sometime around uh when when covet started I just bought a camera and started to record because like like I said I've done so much wrong I send clients to the wrong address I got hacked I had fines on on wallets that don't exist anymore on exchanges that don't exist anymore and I think um I

just wanted to share that learning with people that are maybe new to crypto um because it helped me in the beginning to learn from others that have done this before um and then I don't know in the beginning it was just random I just clicked record and talked about whatever um but then I I found Cosmos uh thanks to Jack sampling um he got me into it uh he had a call with me this was pre-abc and he walked me through everything and he was so passionate about it um and then the rest is history I mean from there I just went deeper deeper deeper connected with everyone I also liked the ideology a lot about Cosmos because I think before that this this Bitcoin tribalism came up uh really big and I really didn't like that um and also I think crypto YouTube was I

think still is but back then even more so was flooded with private leveraged Traders referral links here and there and like yeah I just don't think that's too valuable I mean everybody can do whatever they want but yeah I just wanted to make a more fundamental um content Channel and yeah now I'm just basically all in on Cosmos on that end but I'm also very interested in other ecosystems I'm not just only Cosmos but that's where I spend most of my time in yeah yeah that's it I think we all share that yeah yeah YouTube channel I know for a lot of people it's like how they got into Cosmos so many people are like oh I found out about I got into the ecosystem through you it was really funny because I think I've been on your podcast like on your channel a couple a bunch of

times you're always interviewing me which was really fun to like turn the tables a little bit oh yeah I enjoyed that actually it's cool I don't have to prepare much yeah yeah so how did you go from you know having a YouTube channel and a lot of cosmos videos to organizing Cosmo bursts I mean I've stands before that um I've actually done one here in Medellin before I've done one in Buenos Aires like a general crypto event um and when I was living in Shanghai for my exchange year uh when were you living in Shanghai 2018 okay yeah I went there because I studied Chinese and economics in Germany but then I had one exchange here in China and that's where I met other guys and we co-hosted crypto

Mondays in Shanghai ah yeah which was really cool it was a big success so I always had this background of like doing events getting people together I think that's also my what I love my my skill is just Connecting People yeah right and like the goal for this customers was also like um to just get all of you guys together lock the doors for for three four days and then you guys talk and I just I just enjoy it but yeah so yeah it was the background and the passion just for connecting people and then yeah it was it was coincidence and luck I guess and the right timing um when I moved to Lisbon last year um that I also met the right guys with

basil Fab and Yuri um because I could never do this alone right so um when we saw that hey there Solana breakpoint and there's isliscon East Lisbon and liscon and whatever in avalanche house like Wednesday no no Cosmos event like there needs to be a cosmos event at least in this week right at least one meet up and because I knew you all were coming anyways right for all these ethereum events yeah um and then we basically um came together and we said let's let's make a meet up at least and then just meet up idea so like maybe we can have some presentations and then maybe we can even fill a full day and then it turned out to be two full days

um 700 people showed up um but I think yeah this was also I think the first time after years that everybody came together in Cosmos so it was just the right timing luck and yeah the red City to start like the the the first Cosmos conference and kind of the only government conference that existed before that was the interchange conversations that happened in Berlin and it was like this kind of you know it was cool like to see like this first Cosmos conference and there was a hackathon and of course like cosm wasm was built there and everything but then like I remember seeing Cosmo versus like what the is this like who's organizing this thing is the ICS behind the ICF like who who is this and uh yeah I mean like I totally get this whole like hey let's do a meet up and then it turns

into this big thing because like we also have a similar thing with nebula where you know at first I wanted to do like a kind of side event with Etc and then it became like this I mean not as big as the cosmos but it was like you know 300 people and like yeah and now we want to turn it into a conference so like things in Cosmos like really are accelerating and you know the size of this and the events that are happening like just really I think uh proves that even like this this year's cause reverse from compared to last year like I feel it feels like it's like I don't know how many people showed up it feels like like at least three times bigger or at least with the energy and everything yeah um and you know and we're in a bear

market now so you know that's and also you know there's no bear market and I was like you said like last last year it was sort of co-located with like all these other conferences so there's a lot of spillover people I know you know there wasn't great security so I I know everyone was just like walking in without tickets which is great they were learning about Cosmos but here it's like no everyone was here came specifically just for this event right they had to come all the way to Medellin for like cosmopress so it just shows like how much the community has grown in the last one year even yeah no I think we also got a little bit of credibility obviously also for Colombia from Defcon right which is happening in a week yeah or two weeks um in Bogota um but I think yeah like I say I mean I

know you told me this in the beginning like you believe that customers deserves its own conference right not Cloud chasing other events or other communities like we're big enough to do this and I think this year customers has proven that that we actually are and I think in total uh we had over 1500 people there um insane yeah that's crazy um there were like people showing up I I didn't even know like crazy crazy people um I may have told people that hey if you don't particular I was like to show up turn you away no I don't think it would turn anybody away I I at least I'm not aware of that um but I think from over 35 countries which is that's the crazier part to me

like there were people like like Jacob right Jacob flew in from Vietnam yeah like that's a crazy trip it's a 40-hour trip and now he's going back with an osmo tattoo I don't know we can talk about this yeah yeah yeah right we got to talk about the legendary stuff there's people that flew in from Australia from Japan Hong Kong South Korea a lot yeah Korea a lot of Korea um the US from from India a lot of them exactly from Europe yeah so that I think that's a cool part um and like you say like they're just they just came for this specifically and also like a lot of Latinos right like we got people from Argentina Mexico Peru Chile the big Team Dominican Dominicans are crazy like and you can also tell like

talking about where where to host customers next right like you can see where already small communities exist right like the Dominican Republic is is a small country but they have already like 30 40 hardcore cosmonauts right and they're super pumped and excited to maybe one day host customers there and you know why not Punta Cana so yeah which beach Vibes there yeah yeah uh yeah it was I mean like I think all the people that were seeing you know staying in this whole area were all you know cosmonauts and you know I just like see people with Cosmos t-shirts everywhere and like like the locals listening I'm like what's this Cosmos thing like even I mean even the some

wood drivers uh either came to the conference or like oh yeah you're also from this Cosmos event um so like the locals are hearing about it and funny thing like hit a restaurant down there which is actually a big restaurant they just told me um yesterday when everything was over they told me that um this is the first time ever that we're running out of food and it's like crazy like every single room in the hotel was booked they have 300 rooms I think nearly 200 were from cosmonauts um they obviously still have other people here and it's an international big hotel right like people just come here anyways but nearly like every room was booked uh we booked every single room for the conference like every single meeting room every single conference room three

different floors I think from like the amount of like detail that went into this they never had this here yeah the region team booked an entire Hotel I was talking to Greg and she's like yeah we just went on Airbnb we booked like all these rooms in this Boutique Hotel and it turns out we just had the whole hotel so they're like throwing parties in the sauna and everything yeah it's wild yeah so what's um what were the kind of big highlights for you guys here in terms of announcements I mean like obviously there's the Adam 2.0 announcement maybe we can talk about that but um yeah maybe before we talk about that what kind of other uh important highlights uh yeah um yeah I mean I think there was a lot of a lot of different things I think uh

you know I got I always I gotta talk about some of the mesh security stuff for a long time and uh just you know I think it's something that we've kind of all intuitively thought about and knew it that was going to happen in Cosmos but like it was able to like kind of formalize it a little bit and put the ideas down into like comprehendable like so that yeah I think that was really fun um and then on top of that just like kind of just like seeing a lot of the more underground projects like like you can talk a little bit more like uh Babylon for example that was super cool yeah I did an interview with uh with Fisher yeah yeah so that that's really cool

um you gotta you know and just like seeing an update on like what everyone is working on uh yeah so that was really just fun to see so yeah talk about this mess security thing is it like you said it's something that I mean certainly I've been thinking about like you know in in sort of abstract ways but never really you know put a name on it or but this idea that basically chains can secure each other and create this kind of like strong bond between like all chains you know yeah the idea is just this is that um you know the point of Cosmos is okay interchange security is not supposed to be a hub and spoke system right if we just end up building another Hub and spoke system we're no different than every other ecosystem right polka dot

ethereum with the Roll-Ups uh everyone is building like one Central chain and then a bunch of uh things that depend on and that's like you know that's cool but like the point of Cosmos is like to build this like truly decentralized system no one chain at the center um and to do that how how do you make that work right um so or how do these Sovereign how can we have a network of many many sovereign Chains No we go I often go around pitch this app chain Vision to deaf people but then there are the first question is always like wait but how is this all going to be secured right like don't you need like ethereum level security your polka dot level security and the answer is all of the

app chains are going to secure each other so the it's kind of like the NATO model where it's like okay NATO is a collection of sovereign countries they all have their own governance systems they don't interfere in each other's internal politics but they have a joint security mesh where if any one country gets attacked all of them sort of rush to each other's defense I love how you always bring this back down to geopolitics like the geopolitics analogies that you that you provide to kind of you know help help understand how this is going to work are so effective and when you gave this slide with like the NATO all the NATO countries and like all the alliances that they have and also this kind of like um this this the shared security that that uh that exists between them I think

is like a really uh accurate analogy of what this might look like yeah yeah so you know that I think that's uh yeah so I you know we've always thought a lot about like when we we're designing Cosmos like two um it's a little bit of a technical system but it's also a like a political economic system as Bucky would like to Bucky likes to say and you know when we're thinking about the technical side of things we often look at the internet for uh inspiration when we're looking at like the political economic situation we really do like to think about like oh how do communities form you know how do Sovereign communities interact with each other and you know go as much as Bucky like to say what we're building is you know we're not building the world

computer in Cosmos right we're building the community computers right and how do communities interact in the real world there are blockchains are going to have like similar uh interfaces or you know relationships as well how how far do you think is um interchange security or the end game for energy and security because there's like version one obviously which is very static in that sense and then version two version three how far is mesh security because I still have to listen to your talk because I was just running around I I couldn't that's what plane Rises how far is that away Mass security your Mass security idea from the end game of ICS yeah I think it's um obviously a little bit more complicated for sure than the V1

um what mesh security really is is the V3 design but run bi-directionally instead of just one chain providing security to the others so I'll turn into three in multiple directions from my understanding um I believe the informal team had actually paused development on B2 and B3 because they found what they thought there was like issues with it and so what we were able to do was like help them explain like oh this is actually how you solve this issue and this issue of this issue and now I think they are like pretty on board again with with moving towards this idea so you know I was chatting with you on yesterday about like you know I think they're also really excited about my security as well and are going to help like build this I know I know that I know Jake from Juno

is like so excited he's like he's like ready to start hacking on it this weekend at hack awesome and he's like okay we're gonna start building a prototype right now like him and Ethan fry and and I are I think we're gonna try to like build some for some primitive pieces today um obviously this is well you know this is actually an interesting thing it's like kind of like randomly independent one thing I think I've realized by just talking to people at this conference uh and just like seeing how the state of development is I think that we have to start treating cosmolism as a more like core piece of the cosmo stack where it's just like so much faster to do faster like really quick prototyping in the cosmos SDK is really supposed to be this like kernel level code where you need

you know if you need to touch the Deep stuff like staking or how transaction fees work that stuff should really be in like cause in the SDK but like you know defy logic or new IBC protocols that stuff is way faster to write in IBC and I think yeah yeah it's right in cosmosm and I think that like all Cosmos change actually going forward or it causes SDK exchange at least should Implement some sort of uh uh permissioned cosmoism like similar to what osmosis does um and I think chains that don't honestly are going to be like kind of Left Behind uh we've actually added you know we have our first core module that we've written in cosmosum now which is IVC rate limiting it's like a way of you

know dealing with hacks and stuff where it's like it says Hey only uh 20 of an IBC channel uh pbl or whatever can go every six hours or so okay right so basically all your IBC connect all your IBC transfers are going through Cosmos and they're not going through the like internal level well they go through the causes of State okay because the IVC module is in SDK but then the I when it receives fun IBC packet it passes it to the cosmosum contract that does the rate limited and then the cosmo and then the cosmos contract it's like a the middleware stack is awesome this is so interesting okay and so um with regards to with regards to like this permission permission cosmosm uh

thing you just mentioned can you explain what what do you mean by that why would it be permission why would just be permissionless um because I don't think that you know you don't want a permissionless chain where anyone can start deploying whatever you want right it's just more of a way of like oh I see so you're saying that chains to deploy cosmosum as a way to implement other sorts of functionality for their chain and at a minimum and then perhaps like some other like exactly yeah so like this IBC rate limiting contract we are going to add it to osmosis but you know I'm sure other chains will want to add it as well right so you know yeah it's just a way of iterating quick more quickly on features yeah okay like as opposed to say like the ethereum where they've built all

these these four core functions like into the evm yeah in Cosmos it would be better to build them as contracts and you have the core modules call them exactly okay very interesting so one of the things that our team has been working on a lot over the last like you know three or four months is like deepening the relationship like the inter how easy it is you know because right now you have a lot of teams who are like very Cosmos SDK focused right like they don't they don't use cosmosum then you have a lot of teams that are very Cosmos and focused so like you know the conveyor team the build cosmosm they kind of really only think in terms of Cosmos yeah Juno is very much like you know their their core chain is very very minimalistic and they have a lot of cool

Logic on the causal Muslim side but osmosis we like have a lot of stuff happening on the cost of SDK set and a lot of stuff happening on the cosmoplasm side and so we've got to spend a lot of time like uh making the interaction process between these two systems like very seamless and so um yeah so you know I think that that tooling that we built is going to start to be able to be used by more as well and what do you think in their contact center around the prop 69 implementing customizing on the cosmos Hub which failed and now they're building Neutron which is a smart contract platform so what are your thoughts on that for the Hub oh I bought a guess on Prop 69 so I I I think it was like a no-brainer yeah what do you think about it yeah I mean

hearing you now I think I think that perhaps it makes sense to implement it on the cosmos chain as as a on the cosmos sub chain as kind of a permission thing so that more functionality will will come to it yeah I I also felt that uh having cosmoplasm on on the cosmos tab was was not yeah I think I voted knowing that as well and like yeah it's not the role of the cosmos so I think especially after Adam 2.0 prophecy 9 wasn't for permissionless cosmopolism it was for permission to cause a loss oh it wasn't Okay and like I said I don't think it's the point of it is not to add more functionality to the hub necessarily right I think it was to be able to like add new IBC protocols or you know for example you know uh the

composable team is building the substrate IDC yeah yeah but how it's actually the IPC client is actually going to be freaking in wasm and so it's like I don't know I feel you need to there's more and more of the stack is going to move towards that yeah I mean maybe after osmosis implements this and you know starts building useful features and Cosmos and maybe other channels will start following that model I mean that's kind of I think that's what our plan is like you know we're start the Mass security process with chains that have Cosmos enabled so you know we'll have osmosis and Judo and stargaze and everyone start doing the mesh security and then hopefully more change will start to add it so item 2.0 big announcement did you uh did you plan this before with the did you know about

it no I didn't know anything you didn't know the details beforehand no I mean you didn't see the right thing I could have pushed for it like for you know assembly a white paper draft whatever but like I didn't even ask too much I wanted to get surprised myself but yeah it was it was cool it was awesome I also that like that they chose customers to like share all this like because you'll ask early for announcements and like across the board almost every presentation had some Alpha in it um some big announcements Right started they also announced some stuff um into a cooled staking or something like that with with their nfts uh if you haven't listened to this is pretty cool stuff um yeah so

yeah I think item 2.0 I mean this was I think for a lot the by the rumors sell the news event for for the conference yeah um but then also uh Yelena dropped the a couple of consumer chains that are coming with uscc obviously being a big one but you guys also have been involved in I think getting this done um and yeah I think atom 2.0 is obviously a Long play but I think it's the first time that there's a specific roadmap for the cosmos Hub and yeah we'll see how it plays out but I think there's still I think that they're putting it on the firm now then there's still some feedback and then it has to go Unchained so I think it still needs a little bit um maybe also to to be refined but I think in general it's a pretty cool

thing um touch is about touches on a lot of the things we're going to have and our term not just not just inflation but also governance um some of the additional utilities right to also make the cosmos have the service provider for other chains without having to enforce dependencies on the Hub so yeah we'll see I think I'm excited about it but I'm excited about a lot of changing in Cosmos but yeah um yeah I think I'm I'm quite optimistic about I'm 2.0 uh I think that it was like a necessary thing in order to bring actual value and utility to the cosmos Hub and sort of set on a track to you know remain relevant long term

um as an atom holder I'm like quite excited about it uh also as you know someone who's like been a core believer in the in the cosmos Vision like the app chain vision and like everything that you know you guys have been working on for the last whatever six years um like I think it's great um I think the yeah like I wrote this blog post a couple weeks ago basically like asking a question like can interchange security um save the cosmos hub from from becoming irrelevant and I think like I'm 2.0 also is a step in the right direction I do think that the I think that the cosmos Hub needs many many more chains

using internet chain security if he wants to stay relevant I think like this is this is a great announcement set right like five five or six uh chains so basically like um there's going to be stride uh usdc um there's this flash that's uh Mev chain uh uh staking liquid state uh Quicksilver well Quicksilver is not no they haven't like yet announced that yeah is stride gonna be using stride has been using it yeah um there's about four or five of them Neutron of course but I think that there needs to be a real concentrated Business Development effort on the part of say like the ICF and informal and all these teams to start um doing business development and I

think that there's an opportunity I talked about this on the panel that I hosted with Marco and owner There's an opportunity to really position Cosmos and the Hub as um sort of an Enterprise grade ecosystem where sort of more like traditional uh companies and institutions can start using Cosmos and my my the way I see this is the cosmos SDK is absolutely the best technology stack to start building decentralized applications and progressively decentralize them so you can literally use the cosmos SDK as like a database right it's just like a transactional database that allows you to build logic into it and then over time

um you know companies can start opening up their their permission model by adding validators adding Partners to the validator set um whitelisting users um even maybe doing kyc with white listed addresses if they need to right if they're like regulated in such a way that they need to be compliant they can do that and then over time essentially like plug into the internet in the same way the companies in the 2000s and like 90s and 2000s were going from intranet to intranet uh by enabling IBC I I think that's I I don't know like who needs to do this but like someone needs to build the framework um and and sort of handhold uh companies through through this process and I don't know if it's the ICF or like the

builders program or what but like it needs to happen yeah but one of our like uh biggest investors it's uh Ribbit Capital yeah but they uh you know they are one of the biggest like traditional fintech uh VCS um you know they were early and you can pick up you can imagine yeah and then they've been doing crypto for a while as well they're very early inquiry based but they one of the reasons that they like bet big on osmosis was that you know they have this giant fintech portfolio and they just believe that like one day all these big tech companies are going to have their own blockchains and you know Cosmos is the stack to do that and osmosis is the center of Cosmos and so they're like okay that's you know this is why but that idea that like hey all of these

companies are going to start to uh migrate onto their own Sovereign blockchains yeah it makes total sense like I mean you know when when we were building stratum in in 2015 you know we were already using tendermint with our customers and the challenge that we had back then was that there was no ecosystems right we were trying to build consortiums which like there was no classes SDK there was no plasma says DK also but like the challenge that we had is that we were trying to build consortiums and and it just wasn't working because like that's an enormous feat but if you have an ecosystem that already exists where there's economic activity where there's liquidity where you can build a business and and start sort of like redesigning existing business models to work on on blockchain Cosmos is the perfect place to do it

because there's active activity there but not only that because you're as a company you know you're able to build your application in a permissioned or more like controlled way and then over time and depending on your business needs open it up to other to other players in the ecosystem if you wish something that's uh you know just not possible on ethereum because like because you share the security with all the chains you share the bandwidth with all the change I mean maybe with ethereum too too like that's changing a little bit but the customer just seems like the perfect way to do that yeah but I think we also see that uh we actually have proof for that already because we see um from both sides right at the institutional side um there were also a couple of big a couple of big VCS here at the conference

um and they didn't make a big thing out of it but they would just want to make their homework yeah um and then I had the live stream last week with fanak which is a 19 million dollar fan and this guy like you know we're just talking on on telegram right now and he's like man this is cool this is cool so he's like he couldn't he couldn't be here this time but um he uh watched our I think at least is watching all the presentations or at least the ones that he's interested in on the stream but yeah they're they're super interested and hyped about it and I think the fact that Cosmos it's not top down in that sense where there's one organization that does older marketing all the conferences all the Investments all the BD but there's like different teams that all work together

together sometimes in a good way sometimes there's drama but um I think that's very interesting that's a different vibe that we have in Cosmos as to compare to any other ecosystem you can even see that with customers I mean what we deal with customers we couldn't do it in other ecosystems like if we did it in Solana like Solana Foundation or whatever it's running breakpoint like we can't do that yeah iohk is running the cardano stuff parity is running all the polka dot stuff New Foundation is running all the new conferences and all this stuff we could only do it in Cosmos so because there is no Central giant entity that runs everything and that wants to be everywhere

um and I think that's a cool thing and and the second thing is also project wise you see dydx is the best example obviously I think they had some people here actually but they just chose Cosmos for for the app chain architecture and for because it fulfills whatever they want to build and you see more and more projects now doing their homework um potentially also migrating over to Cosmos either their own chain or building on any cosmosom chain out there and there's multiple out there that you can use or use energy and security against so many different ways and I feel like it's all coming together um I think over the past years ever since I joined Cosmos was never the flashy project that had a lot of hype and you know crazy stuff going on but I

think now it's all coming together in a very organic way and very naturally and I think that's the most sustainable way even though Adam didn't pump on the atom 2.0 announcement I think long term um atom and and all the other coins in the ecosystem will will gain more and more market shares because it's just building a more Mindful and sustainable way and you can see this across all teams like literally as Moses team and the stargaze team the Juno team like they're just so focused on building and um also that attracts real users real protocol revenue and I think that's way more sustainable than having a quick pump because some disease buying it and then you know slowly dies off for a long time so yeah I think it's a it's a a

very there was another conference going on at the same time in Singapore 2049 like everybody was saying there's like 65 VCS here and you know foreign his customers but on that note of like centralized sort of you know planning um you know there there is I think some debate around whether or not it's it's it helps long term to like align uh people on like you know shared visions and aligning people on like building the right things uh you know in Cosmos we don't really have that same sort of you know centralized planning as perhaps in

um in Solana or some of these other ecosystems that you mentioned but there is the iacf there is um you know uh interchange and BH and you know informal systems and to some extent tenement ignite and you know they still hold like I think a lot of the you know power and perhaps like sort of memetic power as as like you know these uh institutional organizations within Cosmos um there was a presentation by Ethan Buckman and I also did an interview with him if you want to watch that's on the channel where he talks about um re redesigning the ICF um what do you guys think of you know yeah what do you think of the ICF and like does it need to change uh in in a more sort of centralized uh planning

more in the you know the route of like Solana or some of the other ecosystem or does it need to just be kind of a steward that helps you know the ecosystem go in in a Direction I think Sunny can talk more about like because you used to work at tenement right so you can talk more from an Insider perspective but for me as an outsider I think um it's cool to see how these institutions exist and help fund projects the ecosystem development all these kind of things and also conferences but they don't want to be necessarily the center uh and the central point of attention and everything right they didn't want to like say hey just you know make this The Interchange uh into the ICF conference right they gave us the support they came

full force informal sent 20 people a lot of people from the ICF here a lot of people from ignite here and yeah they just want to be part of it but they don't want to enforce to be in the center and I think that's really cool to see and then I think founder wise right like if you look at any other ecosystem you can see one or two main figures right we had it in Terra with doe we have Charles and cardano even vitalik yeah even though the ethereum foundation probably doesn't hold the majority of the of the east in circulation still vitalik has a big impact on the development and roadmap of ethereum in that sense and in Cosmos I think most people don't even know who J and Ethan are like yeah like they're super passionate but they don't

also want to be in the in the center and get all the attention right um so I think that's a net positive for for the ecosystem because it doesn't really make any dependencies and you know if yeah you can see like in cardano right like charge is so controversial for many and people just don't like him and that's why they don't like cardano in general yeah but um I think we'll never have this problem unless Sonny gets crazy I don't know I'm still convinced that Jay's uh you know departure was 20 I'm not 20 convinced that it was like performance art because his way of pulling a Satoshi it was a there was a very smart move if

that if that's true but yeah I think that Cosmos survived this I think in 2020 a lot of people thought customers would be dead and like I said on stage the way I got in is because I bought some atoms somewhere and I didn't really know I forgot about it and they're like okay should I do my research or should I just sell it and luckily I started doing my research but at that time at that time I didn't even know what Cosmos was like there was no one talking about it it was completely dead on social media yeah because it went through this self-destruction but survived and I think yeah also now with with the recent the most recent division of uh tournament into three new entities I still just splits it out on there I

would love for someone to explain what what's going on here and who's behind what but yeah it could be another episode maybe yeah but I think that's just like further dilutes their their power and impact and I think hey I think the test here is it's simple it's like look at any character ecosystem and is there one person essentially that like if that person gets hit by a bus with the can with the community continue to exist and I think that in Cosmos I don't know who that person is like I I don't know like one person in Cosmos like if something were to happen to them that the ecosystem would cease to exist for other ecosystems I really think that that's really kind of debatable and um yeah I mean I I think it's great I think it also creates some challenges in terms of coordination uh

but you know if I I personally I think the icf's role in sort of you know these institutions I think their role needs to be to just kind of Steward and you know curate in a very light touch way the sorts of things um that the ecosystem work on and and like the direction of the ecosystem and so like you know I think Bucky you know he he you know he set sort of a vision and like I think also Zaki and you know of course yourself Sonny like you know you're all very influential and and you guys help you know set the sort of broad directions in the ICF and these institutions that can play that role I do think that the ICF needs to be more transparent though and sort of more uh more open generally like I feel that it's it's sort of it's sort of an opaque

organization that it's been hard for a lot of folks to kind of like understand what they're doing or you know who's responsible for what or whatever and like if they can just be sort of providing more on the ground support I think would be great I think one thing that's uh kind of good that's happening right now is the ICF has always been a little bit uh uh being pulled in two directions whether and it goes unclear a little bit whether they were supposed to be the like foundation for Cosmos the ecosystem or for the cosmos Hub the chain right yeah these are two very different things and uh I think part of like this reorg structural reorg that's happening right now is like the Hub team that was at the IC at IG uh is going to be moving to informal and so

um that's gonna like you know I think informal is taking on a little bit more of this role of being like a lead Dev team for uh the hub for the Hub while now the ICF can focus on being not not Hub focused but being ecosystems and so that's part of like what we're doing is well the new Builders programs and stuff where it's like getting so currently the icf's you know its main treasuries all in atoms right and it's using atoms to like fund a lot of these open public goods but like you know I think that the public goods funding should be resilient against like just the app you know even if Adam doesn't make it but the cosmos ecosystem does we should you know public goods should still be being funded so

more so what we're building towards is making sure that like hey more chains are able to contribute to this like pool of capital yeah that that are working on public good so like if you're working on core Cosmos SDK stuff or IBC stuff you're not getting paid in just Adam but you're getting upside of osmo and Juno and secret and everything like all this whole stuff and then also just like coordinating better on like how do we Market the ecosystem as a whole like getting this like narrative around the IBC and The Interchange on the Note also um of like who is who is running the show I think in customers we still have or like all these teams they still have one or two people that you associate the project with like for

you um and I suppose there's a lot of people associate that with you um and stargaze a lot of them associated with chain but I think like I said earlier like if one of them would get hit by a bus I mean there's still so much behind that right like so many other very smart developers they're also very well connected with everyone I think Cosmos the cosmos development is also like a mesh Network right it's like everybody's like helping each other and they're like oh um very collaborative and I don't honestly I mean I've been around in other ecosystems also before Cosmos but I've never seen something like that everyone else is more competitive and like they they're more private tribal about their own stuff and I feel like in Cosmos it's more of a joint effort between all these teams and even though

you it up sometimes um if you are willing to to make it better next time I think there's always still conversations going on like I think people are not really salty about it at least on the developer side on Twitter of course different thing but yeah I think the builders and Cosmos are very collaborative and I think that's the real core strength of the ecosystem um so yeah so item 2.0 what do you guys think will it save the Hub price Target um this part is up Adam 2.0 that I like at this part that I don't okay what do you like what do you don't what don't you like uh parts that I like I think the uh the allocator process like you

know this is something I've been pushing for a long time which is you know the cosmosab has a High market cap it should be using its community pool to invest in new projects and uh help bootstrap them and you know I suppose it's been has been doing this for a while right like we've had we do these lone swaps we do with stargaze we've got it with axillar but I think that like you know and that's how I suppose has been able to build a close relationships with a lot of these projects and I think the Costless Hub should like start doing similar things as well usually it's much larger Community well yeah much larger like economic might right now okay um so I think that's like makes a lot of sense but then you know things like The Interchange scheduler I don't really make that much sense you know we had a

panel on um Mev I missed it but I'm gonna watch it on the plane multiple people have told me it was the movie it was their favorite yeah it got a little spicy for sure um but yeah so you know I I just don't know if like I don't know I'm not sure who the customer about The Interchange scheduler from the cause of top is going to be uh when I think it's going to be more um change they're going to want to control their own MEP capture and so you know it doesn't make sense for osmosis for example to like use the the hubs into Chase catch alert for example yeah I think the schedule is primarily for Consumer chains right on the Hub I wasn't even talking to the neutron team even though like it's still an opt-in thing and they're like wait uh we would

not why would we want to do that yeah yeah okay but yeah I think the allocator is definitely very interesting um also that the cosmos Hub has a stake in other networks um what do you think about the the inflation monetary policy implementations or proposal at least uh to be completely honest I didn't read that part that oh that's like the least interesting so I think I think it's it's very cool because it creates a revenue stream for the for the community pool and I think that's super important because there's now I think less than a million atom in the community pool osmo how many how much customers in the osmo Pro like a lot about 40 million yeah so that's crazy right that's like 45 million dollars or 43 and the Hub has 16 14

something like that so I think there needs to be definitely a revenue stream I think with that in mind they also propose now to have a nine months High inflation of atom um where some of it goes into the community pool and then it goes down gradually I think 10 per month or something like that to a floor of 300K atom per month um which would bring down the inflation I don't know in numbers but like a lot and I think with that in mind like atom can also I know we talked about this also a long time ago where like that atom can be the the money of Cosmos and I think monetary policy is a big thing of it about it but I think with that in mind and also some of the utilities that I mentioned I

I just briefly skimmed through the governance part there's also whole government section in the white paper I don't know if you read through that but I think there's a lot of interesting stuff but I think this is also stuff that is probably more long-term it still needs to be seen I think short-term the the monetary policy adjustments are probably the most important thing on that yeah because yeah it needs to generate revenue for the pool and also be more sound money in that sense yeah do you think do you guys think that other chains like you know will osmosis start adopting like some of these tools like the allocator or uh reviewing its monetary policy in order to make it more like sound money uh uh you know we've already been doing

loan swaps we've uh been working with skip to build me systems into the protocol already uh We've patch taking derivatives for a long time and we just called it super fluid staking but it was taking there's a form of taking derivatives right um and then yeah interchange security you know we're working towards the mesh uh so and yeah so I don't know I feel like this is actually stuff that osmosis has been working on for a while as well okay I feel it's like we the Hobbs version of these things I feel like there's all these are categories almost like how to do Mev how to do staking derivatives how to do allocation system and like you know both osmosis and the Hub have like different flavors of each one and I think uh you know people pick which one that they the flavors that

make more sense yeah no that doesn't make sense um yeah moving to economics rights awesome it's pretty cool there's a yeah right yeah I think one thing people don't realize about awesome tokenomics is that like you know it is actually uh you know fixed cap right so people like oh it's this like it's super inflationary thing and it's really not of course in the beginning it had to be because you have to roll it out but um that's also why everybody enjoys crazy aprs initially what we needed was a distribution we didn't have a distribution yeah we did you know osmosis never had any sort of Ico or anything right so we're like okay we can air we can do a little bit of an airdrop we have some initial distribution but really we want like you know the airdrop to go to people who are committed to

osmosis right and how do we how did we measure that we were like okay well who's providing liquidity right and that's just the way of you know it it it what it was was an extended Ico right yeah these super high inflation over the first few years was to do the initial distribution to the early adopters of the protocol [Music] so before we wrap up here what was the sort of highlights let's let's talk about the legendary stuff that happens the legends that were made no I mean obviously uh Jacob's tattoo is incredible I think it also came out really nice like the guy and the guy I know this guy for a couple of years with

tattoo artist um very nice guy and he literally this is last minute stuff right and he just brought a table he brought his stuff um and then people just came right next to the DJ at like 2 A.M and they showed me like I want this picture you know I want this tattooed on my neck or whatever and he just had a piece of paper and then he with a with a pizza with a with a pen he just wrote over it and he just made it like freehand like he didn't have real equipment but the way it came out I think it's incredible so so for maybe for the epicenter listeners here are not familiar with this whole story so like Jacob Jacob uh girikian who you know is a founder of uh notional it's a validator he's also like contributed to the ecosystem has been

talking on Twitter for some time now that he would get an osmosis tattoo and maybe some other tattoos and what was your role in like you know organizing this and making this happening I mean you got the tattoo right no I mean of course like Jacob said it I'm like I can get it for you and you know we got it done I think one of the conditions was that he would overtake was mountain in the validator set yeah and I think on the day a few hours before it actually happened so I don't know uh who contributed to that but um I think it was just fun to see how the community is passionate about it and you know the scene when this happened like we're downstairs so it was in this club uh you guys can go on Twitter and like find

videos of this but it was in this club and there's like a DJ up there and then because there was like this kind of higher spot right and he was there in the corner with this light and it just it was such an interesting scene it felt like I don't know some like mob boss you know up there you know like you know looking over like all of his all of his uh subjects yeah it was such a cool cool there's an incredible picture on Twitter where he's like yeah holding the phone yeah you're in the background and the tattoo artist and it's crazy but it's like this thing will be meme 20 years and I thought okay I thought it's Jacob and um the Quasar co-founder he also wanted to make one but the uh the

tattoo artist told me that nearly 20 people made a tattoo there wow and some people got lifetime access to Cosmos Is that real no I mean some people yeah I was a guy at 1am and then I stood next to him and he he wrote something on Telegram and he showed it to me and I just said yeah sure like yeah and then he send it and like yeah cryptociner stood next to me and like we got approval I'm like I don't know I don't even know if anybody did it but some people did get like the kind of Cosmos zero thing yeah yeah but yeah crazy but I think this is yeah the first time also that everyone is coming together and partying having a good time I think it's also super necessary because after all it's like behind all these behind the crypto

Ticker on coin gecko there's like people right yeah and you can see that some people like techno you can see uh what's their favorite drinks you have cool conversations with them um you can you know I had a shisha with Ethan Buckman I didn't have one with you and I'm angry about this because you promised it to me I'm here for a few months I don't know I'm I'm salty now but yeah it's just cool to like you know really truly meet and sure again you've seen the talks you've seen the announcements coins didn't pump but that's just the surface like what's behind this is like all the conversations I just talked with Dan Lynch in the hallway and he's like man they're so cool tooling that we're building and like I'm super excited and

Jake is super excited and like just all the builders and the community coming together and talking meeting each other building friendships relationships I think that's the real value of these of these events so yeah really but I need two weeks off now yeah I need sleep what's next year you're going to take some vacation I'm gonna stay here for a little bit um two weeks probably and then these Dominicans are like come to the Punta Cana it's so close like I'm just probably gonna go there and then from there back to Lisbon yeah will you be in Lisbon like in November when all this stuff's happening yeah yeah I'll be there till mid next year for sure okay yeah cool I think we can uh I think we'd say this

this is a good good note to end on yeah wrap this up yeah all right thanks for doing this guys thank you thanks for having me yeah it's been a pleasure yeah I I actually like being on the other side I know it's more chill relaxed yeah this was cool and thanks everyone who's watching see you next time cheers oh camera's over here yeah all right