Corey Caplan: The Next Phase of Crypto Investing

Transcript

you know, because the regulatory regime, like even though we know it's more friendly, we still don't know necessarily where things are quite going to land yet. We're still in a bit of a gray area. >> Yeah, I think it's pretty funny that that they can't interface directly on chain. So, they just they go to it like a OTC or our market maker desk and pay a little extra. >> But this acts as a good way for not only discoverability, but also breaking down the barriers of making it simpler for people to go ahead and actually use it then. >> Welcome back to the Rowup. We are your hosts. I'm Andy. I'm Robbie and this is your home to learn from the biggest guests, the brightest minds at the tip of innovation.

>> Our goal is to help spread the collective knowledge of everyone in our community. We are breaking crypto out of its echo chamber and taking it to the real world. >> All right, Cory, we're in uh New York City. Thanks for coming by. Um interesting days in the markets, that's for sure. In DeFi, >> always the case. Always something going on. >> So, you got into DeFi like quite quite early in like 2018, 2019. Yeah. So, my uh my formal entry in crypto professionally was in late 2017, early 2018, and my entry was actually in 2015. >> It's a fun story all to start with. But at the time, I was very into like game modding and exploitation. And one of the games that I was hacking, the company shut me down on PayPal. So, I started taking Bitcoin for payment then back in

2015 or so. >> And as they say at that point, the rest is history. Just get your feet wet with wet with the industry and you just never find a way to leave. >> Yeah, man. I mean, so we were originally DeFi slate back in like 2019, 2020. Um that's when we like started doing media and it was we were basically covering the frontier of DeFi and of uh you know like the original unis swaps and compounds and yield farming and we did that for like about a good two years and in in the bare market of 22 we actually shifted to this when we rebrand it to be the rollup as we saw like the infrastructure movement really kind of pick up and we saw a lot of actual uh new you know chains and new uh kind of we realized that that this is where the

the puck was going and also like a lot of the reason that the 2020 and 2021 cycle kind of dwindled out was because we couldn't support all the demand. Then we got Salana, we got L2s, different L1s. Um, but it does feel like DeFi is making a roaring comeback now with the institutional push with stable coins uh and with this current like revenue uh kind of you know buybacks etc meta. So uh it's it I've seen it kind of come full circle. Um, but I'm not sure we see the DeFi that we saw back in uh 2020 uh for a while unless we get lower rates.

>> I think the market's also a bit all the wiser uh at the same time. But to your point, we're seeing a lot of value recycle back to the application layer. Beforehand, people were very interested in investing in, you know, the picks and shovels, the stuff that would be considered base infrastructure. And I think apps weren't quite as sexy, if you will, for a while, but we're seeing that come full circle with things like hype, a initiating buybacks, some of these really good applications that have strong product market fit, making a a strong resurgence and really establishing plenty of flag in the ground, if you will.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I mean, I remember Arbitrum has has kind of notably been that DeFi L2. um you know and that's where Dolomite had originally gotten its its you know flag in the ground. Um and then since then we've just seen a lot of new chains and new places for DeFi. What would you say is your current take on the state of DeFi as it as it is multi-chain and as it is across the entire landscape like where are you seeing um like like just broadly what's your kind of state of the DeFi? I think we're seeing like specialization, if you will, on on certain chains. Like the same way that like Uber didn't

necessarily roll out the same way to each each locality where where it would um be stood up with this application. Like DeFi, like yeah, you have perks, you have lending, you have dexes, we're swapping, but like there's a certain like culture that gets instilled on each chain where you really start to see product market fit take off. Arbitum to me feels like the canonical ETH L2, if you will. like you want ETH but faster, you go to arbitum as of right now. And you got some of the things that make it unique like GMX, of course, you have really good liquidity through a you have other applications that are bridging off from there like hyperlquid that are very in close in proximity. So that's that's all great. Go over to things like Solano, of course, you have the memecoin culture and a lot of like the the fast

DGEN swapping going on. And I think that if other chains want to be successful as it pertains to DeFi because I still think that DeFi is like one of the most uh one of the best use cases just for crypto overall and smart contracts that there needs to be some kind of like niche thing or center of gravity if you will for each of these chains to be successful and actually um you know have staying power over time. Innovating finance global institutional and onchain deep liquidity to drive capital efficiency. Now maximize yields on institutionalgrade liquid staking with M.

Unlock trillion dollars of capital via Fitbitcoin. All of this secured by Mantle's treasury of billions in stables and ETH capital pools. This entire ecosystem is coordinated by a vast network of seasoned VCs that are aiming to create the next generation of banking and financial technology. This is Mantle. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think we've seen the rise of now, you know, obviously like things like Uni Chain where where there's these DeFi applications that are trying to like own their stack as well. Do you think that that that that's uh a general trend that will continue or or do do you think that

that composability is kind of more important than than uh owning your own block space? >> Uh I'm definitely more of a composability maxi. I think that those use cases of trying to own your entire vertical is very tough unless you do have like a really large user base to point people to and can just basically like route user flow from what would have been Ethereum mainet or arbitum and point it to your own stack instead. But it's going to be a challenge for for them otherwise. And like I think about this a lot for a platform like Dolomite like it's a money market protocol. You know our utility is always being very close to the ground of where the out you know where the action is because you know when you're using a platform like whether it's Dolomite or it's a value you get from it comes from the ability

to swap and use those spot assets wherever um you know the best opportunities are. So if you're using a on arbitum, you know, you're probably using on arbitrum for a reason considering a is also on other venues. You could use it on other networks also. Um and then when you move these things instead to your own stack, your own vertical, you're losing whatever things were happening that were in close proximity proximity before to it at that point. And this has really large implications for uh money market protocols in particular because of risk management and how you underwrite for these assets. uh considering most liquidations and all the actions you do, you know, they tend to happen within one transaction or as we say atomically. But as soon as you move to your own

vertical, unless you can replicate all those network effects and liquidity, you you lose all that uh really cool functionality then and you're back to this role of having to figure out how to bridge back and forth easily um and do like manual looping pro processes, which is one of the main use cases for money markets. and you just go down this rabbit hole of like all these new user experience issues that come up that you don't appreciate were fixed because you, you know, moved to your own stack to your own chain that might have been faster or cheaper. It's like there is give and take with it.

>> Yeah. No, there there's definitely a trade-off and and I think we've seen teams make different trade-offs in their designs based on kind of like what they want to achieve. Um, and you know, we had that era, right, where where we had, you know, a unis swap on one chain, then we had sushi swap and then it went onto tons of different chains and then unis swap kind of slowly kind of followed. Um, but then we kind of I feel like returned back to like this native uh application ecosystem for a given chain. Um, you guys have recently well you guys have been on on arbitum but then have also launched on bar chain. What was the thought process behind that? um you know and and how has that been been you know as as as a builder how has it been

launching on different chain and now kind of maintaining two instances. So for for us in our team like we're pretty small and tactical. We aren't as agile as other teams are where we can just deploy everywhere and and service it with the same level of quality like that a could for example. But where our uh specialty comes into play is by like rolling up our sleeves and doing like some cool white glove integrations that makes Dolomite unique on the chain that it's on. On Arbitum, we integrated with the GMX V2 assets. Um we originally did stuff with GLP with GM like with the GMX token itself for staking it. We did stuff with the ARB token where you could still vote with it while holding it in the platform which opened up leverage voting. Uh and the point is that we did this really cool stuff that centered

around what makes arbitum great you know stuff with GMX ARB governance which is one of the most active dows in the entire industry. We wanted to do stuff that we thought we could deliver value back to the the real users of the chain not necessarily the people that that were just there farming it. Um, and then if you switch chains then to bar chain for example and still use Dolomite, you'll recognize all the same great features we have for managing your portfolio, managing multiple borrow positions and the stuff that you'd come to expect from like a, you know, a top tier money market platform, but the way that you'd use Dolmite on an arbitrum versus a bar chain might be very different. You know, because of the assets we list or for Dolma in particular, one of our unique features is what we call dynamic collateral. It

lets you rehypothecate your collateral assets into specific DeFi opportunities in order to scrape more yield or tap into other opportunities you might usually lose when you use other money market platforms. So, what we wanted to do was like, like I said, be tactical, really focus on specializing in in key markets where we thought we could drive value because of the special things that our tech staff can do that others can't >> and uh be able to shine because of it. hopefully offer something that others can't or is significantly worse to the point where we can specialize.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I mean I think barchain's in an interesting spot right after after Boyco what what do you think is is the future of of bar chain going forward? >> I think the future of bar chain is has got to be proof of liquidity. like Boyco in general was like a launchpad to be able or a springboard if you will to drive liquidity through and be able to kickstart the flywheel because otherwise it's a pain to start off with like very little liquidity. You know, your risk caps for underwriting are then like really low and you're going through like this iterative process to build it up.

you know, Boyco was able to springboard into what is now a multi-billion dollar TVL chain uh right out of out of the gates then, which was really exciting for not just Dolmite, but other native applications that were able to participate in Boyco. Um, and now at this point, the bribes are flowing, proof of liquidity is working. There's still a lot of confusion around how proof of liquidity works and the complexity around it. But the really cool thing at least when it comes to like Dolomite and how we try to position position proof and liquidity on chain is to us it's just a staking contract. You know staking as it pertains to DeFi has been around for years now. People understand it. They know that when you stake an asset that asset's not going away. You're not going to lose it to impermanent loss and whatever. All

you're doing is you're doing that to get rewards. >> Yeah. And we just released these things called P tokens on Dolomite where as the name suggests you're able to essentially stake the assets in proof of liquidity, get the rewards with it, but then you can actually borrow against it and do other cool stuff on Dolomite with it at the same time. >> So proof of liquidity is now just one click away from our platform. And one of the things that we've noticed with Dolomite on Arbitum and now it's being brought over into Barachchain is that because we have so many assets integrated and all these cool opportunities that stay within Dolomite, you can get exposure to some of the best things happening on chain without ever leaving our site. And we do that in such a way where not only get to see it, but

we have descriptions on there where you can actually see the assets, get breakdowns of what they are. We'll link out to where the where the uh asset itself is being issued. So if you want to get direct link to the site and learn more about it, you can. But this acts as a good way for not only discoverability but also breaking down the barriers of making it simpler for people to go ahead and actually use it then. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that that that that kind of issue of actually making things easy for for users has been a problem for a lot of a lot of protocols. But the thing is I feel like on bar chain you're kind of adhering to people that are much more onchain native. um which kind of I think a little bit of complexity uh you know DJ yield farmers are kind of used

to um but at the end of the day you know you can see things the easier that you make things the less clicks the less hops the better right and so >> yeah I think one of the biggest issues in DeFi isn't even necessarily just the complexity it's also the discoverability >> like the idea that take a simple example um you know if we roll out like a new portfolio management feature on Dolomite we'll put our announcement out on Twitter about it, but if you happen to miss that and you come to our site like a month later, you might not necessarily know that it exists or know that we have that asset listed in anything like that unless you go looking for it.

>> Um, and with so many things happening in DeFi nowadays, it's not like the early days in 2020 where there's only only a couple protocols to track and every announcement would ring around and like bounce around the walls for a while before it like finally simmer down. You lose track of it, you know? Now we're in a world where like everyone is competing for attention. You have not just applications but tons of chains also competing for that same attention. You have tons of abstractions in place now where wallets might try to make the user experience easier which might abstract away some features on your site. And it's a much tougher process now to understand what the best way to roll things out to users is >> and even beyond that just uh like not like the the fact that you're competing for attention at the same time just

makes it so much tougher. >> Yeah. Introducing Asset Runes, the future of decentralized finance. Stable coins natively on Bitcoin. Hedge against volatility. Diversify your portfolio. All directly from your Bitcoin wallet, secured by ZK Technology. This is asset runes available now exclusively on Starknet. >> Yeah. I mean I I think one thing that you you guys have pulled from that era has been the VE model. Um have you guys made any special changes to the VE model or anything in in particular that you saw flawed in the original curve model?

>> Uh so we made like what we think were like next generation enhancements to it but wanted to also respect its initial vision. You know most notably um you know the lock time time was changed from four four years down to two because four just feels like an eternity in our industry. Um, we did add the ability for you to break the locks early for a penalty. The penalty you pay decays over time as the lock gets closer to maturity. Um, what happens with the penalty that you pay also is pretty interesting in that some portion of it is burned. Some portion of it is put into like essentially a buyback fund.

>> Yeah. >> That can be used for other parts of our liquidity mining process. Um, but also like when you look at the VE model, it works really well for DEX's where you're dealing in the permissionless world, but as you venture into most money market models, you know, there's at least some degree of permissioned or a lot of permissioning that's happening, you know, Dolomite works more like a where there's a lot of permissioning and curation that happens compared to some of the more permissionless and isolated venues that are out there. Um, and and so like because of that, like there isn't quite the same need for gauges that you might otherwise see in like a purely permissionless venue. Um, and so with that, like what we're actually doing a little bit differently is with our VV VE token, instead of like doing strict um strict revenue or passing through a

bribes that might occur, which we still could experiment with later, instead what we're doing is uh is actually fee rebates for your borrows depending on how much you VE lock. So the basic formula for it is if you have $5 of V do which is of course time weighted. So that means if you're max time locked um you're eligible to get $1 back in fee rebates for every um for all the uh borrowing activity you do on Dolomite then. And so this gives people that want to not just go long the the platform and our potential growth, but also want to get kickbacks at the same time and have edge over other borrowers gives them a reason to hold our token and lock it for the medium to long term then too. And I think it's a really interesting idea

because you know at this point the markets like we said in the beginning a bit wiser now of how they'll play DeFi, how they'll value products. Um, and so I think like when you start to turn on like um revenue gen uh revenue kickbacks to users like uh what ends up happening is like the market knows how to value your token there's a bit of a glass ceiling in place and considering we're still like on the smaller side we're still what I consider to be like a fast growing startup relatively speaking uh we thought the best approach instead was to still put a flywheel in place where like our growth could line up with value acral back to the token but instead in the form of fees instead. And the nice thing is that these people that'll be locking are probably a different demographic than the pure value players

that are just going to go buy the token because they think it's like below some PE ratio instead. You know, there's a bit more of a flywheel to tap into there with it. >> Yeah, I feel like the market has gotten a little bit exhausted of the flywheels personally. Um, and as you said, has wisened up. Um, that being said, I think where the market is is kind of trending towards is this is this form of redistributing value back to the token either way, you know, fees, revenue, burns, etc. Um, you know, Curve and and some of the original DeFi companies had this model back back in 2020 21, but but for some reason that entire idea has grown another set of legs o over the

last six months. I I tend to think it's partially because of Trump's uh presidency and and being now a bit more of a deregulated state of affairs. Uh but but I'm just curious like like from interacting with other D5 founders and builders, what is the kind of uh state of affairs when it comes to okay, we want to distribute revenue, we want to build uh uh like actual flywheels that make sense long term like like is there a bit more of a sustainability approach now? Is there a bit more of a of a thought process towards like a longer time frame kind of like how are you seeing that amongst your your uh your you know partners and team?

>> I think there's two two parts to it. I think you touched on the first part already. Like I think as soon as Trump got elected um there was an immediate vibe shift where people were much more relieved over the incoming changes to like the regulatory regime. There was obviously a lot of um crypto founders, companies users team members, etc. that were all very worried about, you know, what another four years of a similar Biden-like regime could do to our industry. Um, and so that was an immediate tone shift and we saw, you know, things like applications start to open up users to to the US. We saw Coinbase and others start to list new assets or relist assets that were otherwise taken off the

platform. And we also saw like even simple things like conferences and stuff start to be hosted in the US or change location to be back in the US again which was cool. Um so that's the first thing. The second thing is of course because of those regulatory things I'm of the mindset that's also what paved the way a bit for the memecoin super cycle that we just went through and a lot of people have gotten very tired of the idea that you have all these platform governance tokens whether it's you know unis swaps a or others and they didn't have value acrruel uh mechanisms actually going back to the token at least not yet and people were like these are no better than memes right now or we're going to call them financial memes so I think it was a bit of exhaustion of, you know, we have all

these revenues coming in, we have these fees, like let's direct these back towards the token and prove that we're not just some meme or some financial meme. Mix that with good timing of the Trump presidency and you have some fireworks now where there's some new excitement injected back into DeFi because there's tangible things happening and meaningful differentiation now of how these projects are are functioning compared to a traditional memecoin. >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean I think that I think that that's been a a a large shift in the entire space. Um, but the biggest one has been institutions and and the desire for this new capital to come into tokenization to DeFi to stable coins um which I do feel

like there there is already started to be some winners in this category while others are kind of lagging behind. What would you say is your institutional strategy or what would you say would be some good advice to people that are trying to build out an institutional DeFi strategy? >> I think that you need to be flexible and remain very modular with your tech stacking your approach, you know, because the regulatory regime like even though we know it's more friendly, we still don't know necessarily where things are quite going to land yet. We're still in a bit of a gray area, but we know it's trending in the right direction. So depending on where that might goes, you might need to change your tech stack accordingly. launch new instances, put a sandbox out there.

Otherwise, have something that's flexible enough to meet the needs of these institutions um as they're entering our our industry and looking to compose around what is already existing in DeFi. Now, the challenge with that is like depending on how you might take that approach, you might lose one of your biggest moes out there, which is your liquidity. You know, one of the best things going for a is not necessarily just its name and its reputation as being number one, but the liquidity that that comes around with being number one. You know, we saw a lot of the centralized lending desks go down after the bare market of 2022 and a lot of that recycled back into a at this point considering that centralized lending has not come back in the same way. So, a lot of institutional usage hasn't even necessarily hit only in the

form of asset issuance with Black Rockck's build fund or stable coins being issued. But it's also come in the form of using some of the biggest players out there that have good reputations that have the liquidity to meet these um these institutions needs and start tapping into it. You know, I've already seen instances behind the scenes where like certain market makers if you go and go hit their lending desk, they're really just quoting off of a plus some spread and because some institutions like just can't go bare metal, if you will, and go onchain to like where the lowest point in the tech stack would be. Yeah. they're instead hitting these market makers, these desks instead beforehand as a bit of a buffer.

Um, and so that's what's really interesting with I think how these DeFi protocols are evolving is that um, you know, we've taken the approach with DolMite where like we think our battles are best won over the course of months and years and not days and weeks compared to other projects, how they might situate themselves. And so for us, if we can curate um enough liquidity and trust over time that we think we can really uh service some of these use cases and needs really well as you build these connections, as you build these relationships with these institutions and that's how you win that game over time as well, if you can meet those needs.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think it's pretty funny that that they can't interface directly on chain. So they just they go to it like a OTC or marketmaker desk and pay a little extra. I mean, it it we laugh about it um because we can recognize it for how silly it is, but like think about some of the regional banks that can't necessarily access the Fed the same way that some of the big ones can. And it's, you know, you could look at it similarly through that scope and I think that's the analogy I choose to look at it through. So, >> yeah. Yeah, makes sense. So, when you're looking at your current set of liquidity and users, what is it about Dolomite that uh people are particularly using it for? um and and kind of what what feature set do you want to uh keep

iterating on to to be able to uh build a more extensive product suite. >> So I think I alluded to this a little bit earlier, but you know I think people really come to us because of the unique assets that we have listed and our ability to underwrite for them pretty aggressively. Like going back to the Arbiterum example again we have the GMXV2 assets. Those they're called GM pools. They're very classic counterparty vaults where uh where they underwrite for perp trading. So if traders net lose, the counter party vaults do really well. Traders net win, they don't. Um, but they also get paid fa fees and other things to it as well. Um, these assets are really good assets for looping where like if you have a GM ETH asset, you could borrow ETH and loop into that and

notwithstanding the open interest skew of traders winning and losing, you know, you have an asset that's very tightly correlated with ETH that you can get amplified uh ETH yield exposure to. And so what we've seen is like uh on dolomite on arbitum as the example once again um we have a bit of an interest rate premium where people are willing to borrow for a higher rate than what a's um charging because of the features set we have on there and it's not just because of the assets. It's also because of the features. Yeah, we're trying to transcend lending over time and become a bit of a hybrid DEX but also a prime brokerage as well where you have access to really good portfolio management functionalities and things that if you just went elsewhere, you have to like either lose the functionality altogether

or you go back to the classic situation of like you use a but then you swap through an aggregator, you use DeFi saver at the same time for managing positions, then you're also hitting DBank up for watching your portfolio. It it's a bit of a mess. M >> so we're trying to consolidate that and offer a lot of functionality where like you're losing value by jumping off platform >> going over to Barachchain then you know those P tokens and integrating around proof and liquidity for that staking >> is is a very key point for us to integrate around because that's where all the yield is sourced from. So the more that we can underwrite for that efficiently >> the more yield that our users can make the more that we make as a protocol then because you know we make most of our fees from people borrowing and taking

ski off of that. So that's that's the name of the game. M >> um and so like we think that the evolution for dolomite really revolves around us being able to increase that efficiency while also trying to drive down borrow costs as much as we can and increasing supply side yield. So we have some things that we're cooking up there um that I think will be pretty exciting over time. And one of the things in particular is our own take on smart debt and smart collateral which is obviously inspired by fluid because they're one of the category leaders in it. uh we have something really cool being built out there that's more akin to like an RFQ like approach request for quote as compared to them where they built out the AMM instead for that feature. So >> yeah, >> some really cool stuff there.

>> Um >> very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think that uh a trend that we're seeing is like this idea of super apps where you actually have so you look at your product suite and you're like okay we have one or two core things that are working. Um, this is this is where we're getting a lot of our a lot of our users. What like why are they leaving the app? They're leaving the app to go I don't know, not swap in in this case, but maybe do something else. So, okay, then how can we build that feature out so that way they don't need to leave the app to do it, right? You just keep iterating on on this question of like why would somebody leave? Okay, let's just build a thing that they don't want to leave for uh or that they would leave

for. >> Yeah. I think one of the biggest reasons that people leave our platform is usually because of lack of liquidity like you know if there's a supply crunch where like a big lender has to pull out funds and rates get squeezed upward like you know that's challenging and it can lead to people having a pretty poor borrowing experience and have to go elsewhere then >> but generally speaking like we have a pretty sticky user base that once they like find their feature set find their strategy find their comfort in our platform >> you know it's always um to to some extent at least in their toolkit ready to be used. Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. So, what is the multi-year vision then here of of VMI as we kind of look ahead with the current regime? What what is your key key, you know, kind of KPIs

or metrics like one or two things that you're really trying to optimize for and why? >> Yeah, we're always trying to grow our total value borrowed and the amount of volume that flows to the platform. And then volume in this case is measuring people that are swapping. >> Yeah. um because that that usually means that people are using some of the portfolio management tools that exist within the platform and are then therefore also staying within platform without going elsewhere. So like for us the things that we're focusing on doing to increase those KPIs revolve around integrations with uh large applications and venues that have access to large user bases and being able to plug those into Dolomite.

Um so that could mean anything from alternative frontends to some of those desks that we were talking about. always trying to expand our reach that way. And the other thing too which I just mentioned is trying to um squeeze more efficiency out of the platform. You know, I think one of my controversial takes on the money market space or subsegment of DeFi if you will over time is that in order to remain successful unless you're a liquidity mode and you have that lendy effect of being number one, the only way that you're going to survive over a meaningful amount of time is by offering some new efficiencies that others really can't tap into. I think that, you know, Fluid has done a great job of that. Uh, and we're looking to carve out our own similar niche, too, through not just the asset listings, but

also, as I mentioned, too, like our smart debt feature that we want to roll out as well. >> Beautiful. Cory, kind of as we come to a close, when you're looking at the DeFi landscape today, I think it's I mean, I'm not exactly sure the TVL, I know stable coins is around like 250 billion. Um, you know, I I think we'll we'll end up having, you know, trillions on chain. Um, where do you think we go from here more broadly as an industry? Where is this capital coming from? Um, how do we get to multiple trillions on chain? >> Um, well, if we're talking trillions and not necessarily just billions, it can't necessarily come anymore from like, you know, Robin Hood or some other fintech application plugging in their user base into into DeFi. Like, that's not necessarily enough at that point.

Instead, it's it's probably going to come from, as boring as it may sound, you know, some bill that gets passed over in in the government that's able to essentially turn that gray area into a white one where all of a sudden the big capital that's able to make very large um titanic- like shifts into the industry can go ahead and start doing so then. >> Yeah. >> Um they're not very fast to move, but when they do, they swing hard as we all know. >> And um I think that's what'll end up happening uh in order to bring it on chain. And I think our collective hope is that when it does happen, it's coming into the the pipes that we're all familiar with like the a the Dolommites of the world coming onto Ethereum and other public blockchains at that point and not necessarily in you know private

ones or anything like that. >> Yeah. Yeah man. Um yeah I mean I I think we are going to get to to trillions. I think stable coins are going to be a big part of it. Uh it's just a matter of of getting those assets on chain onto public blockchains as you said. That's that's like the most important. Um, congrats on launching your recent token as well. I know that that's a lot of work. Um, are you feeling are you feeling good about it? Are you feeling all right? >> Yeah, feeling really good about it. Um, I would definitely not want to launch a token again. Um, not because I don't think the launch went well or or not went well or anything like that, but just because the process is very stressful nowadays.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um I've been in the industry long enough where like um you know through the ICO mania and everything in between to to see like how easy it was to launch a token then how much people didn't want anyone to launch a token because they're like these are useless to oh my god tokens are great again during DeFi summer. >> Yeah. >> And now the process involved with it because there's so much you know as we keep uh talking about before you know you're fighting over attention. >> Yeah. >> And um you know because of that it's like tough to get exchange listings. It's tough to get people to care about it. it's tough to differentiate like why your token needs to exist in the first place. Uh and all that just culminates into like an uphill battle to get it out

there and do it what I feel is uh and what our team felt was the right way to do it. Yeah. >> So um yeah, we think we're the we're on the right path because at the end of the day like our platform doing well is the the northstar metric that we could use to some extent or to a large extent to plug back into the token. Um, and so as long as we keep iterating on Dolomite and seeing uh product market fit take off, that's the most important thing. >> Well, Corey, I appreciate you coming out, man, and your time. And uh, congrats on this on the success of Dolite. Been a user since probably 20, I think 22, I may have deposited first 23 on on on ARB. So, um, it's been good to see you guys stick around and grow and now launch and the best is yet to come.

>> Thank you so much. with sir.