Colin Armstrong on how blockchain can change newsletters

Transcript

g m g m welcome to another episode of web3 Academy your one trusted source to capitalize on the next big phase of the internet don't get caught in the hype cycle I'm Jaybird joined by my co-host Kyle reedhead and we believe that blockchain is going to change the world that's why we're carving a path for doers to confidently build and invest in web3 well in this episode we're talking about how blockchain is going to change not the world but the newsletter industry which I mean is a big world especially a big world of ours Colin is someone that I've met months ago last year we've been talking a lot about the developments going on with with paragraphist company and how they're sort of changing the way the newsletter

the newsletter industry Works in terms of monetization in terms of Engagement in terms of how we create this is one of the really cool use cases of web3 and I think you know social media and just content in general is going to change big time and it's going to make this experience and the way we monetize and all this stuff so much better for everyone on the internet and paragraph is really leading the charge for that in a world that I've been immersed in for many many years and so have UJ in the newsletter world it's time to free ourselves from you know big companies like substack not that they're like the the bad Big Bad Company like Facebook is they're actually meant to be more like Creator friendly but what paragraph's doing and what web3 enables in general is just it's a whole other level and

it's really really exciting and I think a lot of things we discussed here in this episode uh really highlight that Colin brings just a wealth of knowledge and experience he actually worked at coinbase back in 2015 so early days at coinbase after getting involved in crypto going down the rabbit hole in 2011 so he's he's OG crypto native in the space and then he went over to Google and spent five years at Google working on their privacy and anti-abuse mechanics and engineering and so he really has seen the tech World from the inside from both the web to Tech world and then the web 3 Tech world and then he wanted to start a newsletter and he saw a problem with newsletters that he knew that web3 and blockchain could fix

and this episode really breaks down all the ways the paragraph is doing that I mean I came out of this episode Kai you and I at the end of this episode we get so fired up we talk about moving our entire newsletter to paragraph so if you've got a newsletter you've got to listen to this if you're a subscriber to newsletters which at this point we all are you want to understand how you could have a better experience connecting with the writers that you love the most and follow the most and paragraph is going to allow that in so many ways yeah and I think the big thing is this isn't just about newsletters and writing the things we talk about our content in general which we all are a part of whether you're creating content

whether that's music or that social media like content or whatever the stuff we're talking about applies to it and can be used for all these different types of content so I think that's really really interesting and just paragraph seems to be doing some really cool stuff here there's we've had mirror which has been in this space for a while paragraph's really taking it to another level so if you know about what Mir is doing you'll be really excited to hear what paragraph and Colin and their team are doing all right well let's jump in today's episode with calling for paragraph but before we do we just need to take a minute to hear from our sponsors the future of social media is here and that future lives in web 3 on top of lens protocol web 2 social platforms are broken and right for disruption you see the epicenter of

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Portugal the 9th of June at the Epic web 3 conference what's up Colin welcome to the show hey thanks for having me on we are super excited to have you on both Kyle and I have been working in newsletters for a while and have been screaming about the potential of web3 to change newsletters change the way the writers monetize and make money from Their audience their community so couldn't be more excited about this episode let's start from the beginning can you give us a little bit of sort of the origin story the background of why paragraph was founded and what the real problem that was you guys identified in the market that newsletters and writers were facing Publishers were facing that

you wanted to solve for yeah absolutely so during the pandemic I had a lot of free time naturally so I I wanted to start writing more I wanted to start publishing more long-form content I wanted to start tweeting more writing more you know short form content building a personal brand I figured I could write about tech write about crypto during the pandemic I was at Google that Google the last five years you know so I just wanted to start putting content out there I looked at the existing Solutions I think sub stock is likely you know the de facto player in the space here so I signed up with substock started posting and then quickly started hitting a handful of just small small issues a couple issues I had with the design you know it seemed like the design you know options were limited Publications looked identical

the emails looked identical email automation there wasn't a whole lot you could do there host organization you know in terms of tagging and categorization not novel like you can do that just all very small things right so this got me thinking about extensibility I'm a developer at heart I've been coding for over a decade so I wanted to start extending what was possible looked for an API there was no API on soft stack you know impossible to extend it impossible to build on top of it impossible to change it if I loved everything about substack but hated one particular thing I'm forced to deal with that or move off the platform also just important to note here like even if they did have an API I think we've seen time and time again that companies change the rules I think Twitter is a notable example up until like a week ago they're

you know they're shutting off API access I think Twitter Enterprise is like 40 000 a month right now like even if they offered an API I mean no guarantees that it would stay the same and and that developers wouldn't get the rug poles underneath them after building on top of it anyway so so going back to sub stack when it comes to extensibility I mean yeah no API access but I also noticed from like a feature perspective it seemed like they were moving more and more in the direction of a closed ecosystem they came out with self-stack chat substack forms again they watched notes like a direct Twitter competitor which caused Twitter to uh to come fight back yeah same like they were moving more and more in the direction away from newsletters more towards this kind of social network type approach where the network effects belonged to sub stack

you know Etc it probably seemed like they were trying more and more to insert themselves between you and your audience I think many any of the top newsletter writers on substack and Beyond they they recognize that it's valuable to build not just a newsletter but a community they have a podcast they have slack Community they have a job board so some stack allows for this but they don't make it easy to do this outside of their ecosystem they want you to use self-stack forms subsection the podcast function on all this other stuff right so if I wanted to use like Discord instead of chat or Twitter instead of notes you know it it's not easy to do so you know I think the platform and the portability but it lacks interoperability like they kind of Designing the tool for you to use it not for you to use whatever else you want

using that as kind of a core so like monetization also I mean there's a bunch of constraints you know it needs to be five dollars a month minimum it needs to go through Strife you know needs to be a recurring subscription can't be one-off Etc so again just kind of constraints that they're placing between how you interact with and monetize your audience so having all of this you know noticing all this I recognize that email is valuable I mean undeniable way to get content in front of readers the direct relationship that people have With Their audience is valuable I think building that direct relationship not having it facilitated by you know third party is valuable that the network effects are valuable I you know chatted with a bunch of writers they've been growing as a result of the audience graph that sub stack is building but ultimately I

wanted more functionality control and guarantees in how I could create distribute and monetize content both from a Creator but also build on top of it and ensure that if I try to build sort of a sustainable business on top of you know a platform like stuff stack that I wouldn't well that I'd be able to do so first of all but also that I wouldn't have the rug pulled underneath myself so to talk about the development of paragraph why did you decide to do the the angle that you've taken with paragraph which you can you can kind of explain a little bit more about what paragraph is actually to start and then just talking about kind of why you went that way why web3 how all this kind of played into your decisions to I guess compete with sub stack if you want to call it compete but I mean improve on

what sub stack is built I guess yeah for Jade so the vision of paragraph is to help creators publish share and build a business around their content but using permissionless protocols whenever possible so we're kind of focused on Three core areas there's content creation creators have to create content distribution you should get that content in front of their audience and monetization so make money off that item ultimately so you know there's a handful of things that we're doing within each of these let's start with creation so whenever you create contents and you publish on paragraph We give you the option of storing on are we so it's permanent and it's unsensorable storage anyone can ingest it anyone can build on top of it you can self-host it you can pull it display it elsewhere it builds interfaces around it Etc the importance of that is if paragraph shuts down your

content still exists whereas when you upload on substack for example your content's gone is that kind of the explanation that would make it easiest for our listeners to understand exactly yeah when it goes to the the distribution standpoint again I think you're very constrained with how you can distribute content if you're again sort of forced to use these tools that that subside is requiring to be used again just to note you can export your subscribers at any time and then use them outside of the platform but like you're forced to export them and then use a different tool rather than just interfacing directly you know by apis which makes certain applications challenging to build because you don't have access to real-time data you can't check is this user a subscriber of mine Etc Twitter esque permissionless social

clients and social platforms that are emerging where you know you could build a lot of unique experiences on top of the so you know lens protocol and forecaster I think are two notable ones in the ecosystem you know you could just query lens are forecasted directly without needing to pay like 40 000 a month to you know on the plum entity right which really like lowers the barrier to entry and allows sort of you know a lot of Novel applications to be to be opened up let me just jump on that for one second just to help the users or our listeners understand when we're talking interoperability one of the things this is a problem we have we use sub stack and we also use custom websites from these letters but our ours we've put on a sub stack for the reason you said Network effects and when you're starting

out that can help the problem however is we are more than just on substack right we have a community and Discord we have other experiences we want to create and like you said there's no API you can tap into with sub stack and so we actually just can't create experiences for our users or our customers on other platforms because sub stack doesn't tell any other platform who is a paid subscriber and who is not and so the only way we can do that is by using web3 tools right by using something like an nft which it acts as kind of like our interoperably standard which is what we did we actually tied into the stripe API it's a attack but it allows us it kind of works what you're building though is something native where we can just have everything be an nft or everything be on

a protocol and you don't need to rely on that platform and I think that is amazing to create we'll get into the monetization side in a second but it allows you to take your customers or your subscribers and do things with them on other applications around the internet and I think that's the thing that is incredible and I don't know that everyone's kind of wrapping their head around that yet it like opens up the internet and I think that's super super exciting because so much can be done as a result to that so anyway I absolutely love it I'll let you finish off with the monetization side but I wanted to just get that out there as well that was a very succinct and accurate summary I think I really like that just one other kind of adding on top of that it shifts the ownership as well from yeah the

platform kind of owning and facilitating the subscription to you know to the user or to the writer one kind of notable example of this is MailChimp like recently they decided they hated crypto so they said sorry and all these other platforms and the fact that uh mailchim bone the subscription not miss sorry meant that Missouri was locked out of their their subscribe that's crazy and after they caused the bus online they eventually got access but you have to go with nfgs the fact that these are owned by either the individual or the writer like even if a platform changes the rules even if they censor you or you get locked out that relationship is owned by the way right right so yeah going back to to paragraphs kind of three Focus areas there's creation there's distribution interoperability is a large part of that and as you mentioned and

lastly monetization so there's kind of two things that we're exploring for monetization there's the nfts as a subscription model which you mentioned it seems like there's a lot of Merit by backing these subscriptions with nfts you know it allows them to be usable across the web for ecosystem as you mentioned but I mean beyond that it allows writers to develop deeper more meaningful relationships with fans if a writer chooses to distribute royalties to their biggest fans they're able to do so they can allow them to have voting power they could create data discords they could you know just choose to interact with them how they wish rather than kind of how a platform forcing them to do so and on top of that the fact that nfts are primitive there's a lot that can be done with them they can be time limited revocable Soul bound they

could be bundled together you could provide you know free access to your friend's newsletter to Holders of your friends nft Etc there's a substantial amount that you can do with them we've actually had people come into paragraph and then say hey I would love to accept streaming payments on paragraph We just don't support that right now so they went and then built streaming payments into an nft and then imported that nft into paragraph and then just started accepting payments in a different way so I mean the fact that it's a primitive people can build on top of it I think unlocks a lot of this composability and sort of extensibility and then the second kind of monetization strategy that we're exploring is collectible content so rather than having you know subscriptions represented by nfts we're giving writers the ability to Mint

content as nft and then allow their biggest fans to collect this so you know we're kind of viewing this as sort of a tertiary form of Revenue not necessarily the primary form but sort of a secondary form what does Grant is sort of a new method of Engagement with readers one example readers are going to be able to or they are able to right now highlight a you know sentence of an article and then collect the sentence and then go riff off that sentence and you know create content publish posts around that sentence so and then there's all these other people that are sort of riffing off of it and creating content around it it's a method of feedback to the writer that this resonated with them potentially they could be you know a monetary game so let's talk about the monetization side for a second because

this is really interesting so you kind of so there's two different ones there's subscriptions which is I mean the web 2 model subscriptions have been around for newsletters for a long time right there's a lot of businesses built this way I mean almost all products online these days are some form of membership and then now we have this kind of Collectibles now I think previous to paragraph I think the first sort of web 3 newsletter company that came out was Mir they don't allow subscriptions they focus on this kind of everything is an nft and you collect and that was the way they wanted to monetize what are your thoughts on how creators either should monetize or how what are you seeing I guess with even your own obviously you're in this industry and you know a lot about it what's working what's not working in terms of

monetization for creators yeah so I think collectible content like writing nfts and Beyond I think can work in certain circumstances I think I've seen success where you know somebody with a massive audience publishes on a mirror and then mints their post as an nft and then Their audience just loves this person the Thousand true fans they absolutely adore this person so they have a desire to to collect and own some of this that's one use case of writing nfts what I have not seen is a sustainable way to do this if you don't have a massive audience and if you're pushing out content weekly you know I think there's there could be some type of collectible fatigue that that arises even if you have a big audience is that even sustainable like I can't see I get it for the first time because you're like oh this is cool the major article

nft I can't really see people continuing to do that unless there's some utility around them but otherwise like I get in the first couple times and then I see that fizzling out maybe I'm missing something yeah to be a master marketer to constantly be selling drops basically right right exactly every time you write a piece you've got to sell it as well as write it yeah which that's not what Publishers should be writers should be focused on I should just produce great content yeah I absolutely agree and I mean I think that's kind of why we we launched with like the memberships and the token gating and everything first and kind of viewing this as sort of a tertiary form of Revenue but sort of opening up avenues for for engagement do you have any idea how much money writers are making off Collectibles like is

there anybody that is doing substantial Revenue off that or is that more just like playing the sandbox experiment with web3 right now I think the top creators on mirror I think have made have made money maybe during the bull run but not anymore yeah we have a dashboard on it and it's limited during the Bull Run they were when they first came out and were first launching a bunch of people were buying them and then now it's it's fizzled out and it's only a couple people and I think the biggest drop they had anyway was not even for the Articles themselves it was for the um what is it the eighth movie or eighth book I can't remember but they launched an nft and so they raised a bunch from that and that was kind of the biggest one so there hasn't been much else from that got it

yeah certainly on paragraph I I don't think I mean people have made some amount of money but people are not a lot more optimistic on recurring revenue is kind of right and the reason for that as marketers is what Jay and I do outside of what your Academy is you only have to get the person to buy once they put their credit card and they make that first decision one time and then they'd have to think about it anymore it just comes off the credit card moving forward right instead if you're saying hey I got to make you buy every single week that's so freaking hard it's hard enough to get someone to sign up and buy something and now you have to give that person to keep buying every single week like you don't want to get caught in that rat race right so that's why subscriptions are

just it's less friction for everyone so in my opinion I think that should still be the main form of of monetization and then you use like you said it's more tertiary the sort of collectibles on the other on the other end of it and I think that's the right model for sure how does recurring Revenue work for writers on on paragraph so we're launching recurring Revenue shortly so like the I I was I didn't think you would launched it yet no yeah we started kind of doing an incremental approach to this I mean we started with like one-off nft purchases but obviously not recurring it's one off you buy it once you get access indefinitely let me kind of explain a bit about the feature that we're launching and also let me kind of preface this by we've been taking a delivery at web 2.5 approach from the

start you know we want people to be able to import their subscribers from sub stack potentially paid subscribers from stuff stack and beyond that kind of inspired the design as well that I'll I'll chat a bit about right now we're planning on allowing the writer to choose the mechanism of monetization so they they'll be able to accept either stripe or crypto recurring payments and then after they set a recurring payment frequency as well as cost they also create an nft that's associated with it so after they do that and then begin getting content begin putting this membership around their publication the readers come on and then choose which what to pay with either crypto or cash they choose potentially a tier as well writers could offer different tiers to their members

and then after going through the flow to set up either the stripe or crypto paid recurring subscription then they have the ability to optionally Mint an nft representing this subscription so that would represent you know the membership into into this community so the nft would then be active for as long as the subscription is being paid for and it's you know a writer could take that nft and then go to Discord and then gate it based on the active attribute which would again persist for as long as somebody is paying for that so the benefit of this is it kind of reduces the barrier to entry if we forced readers to Mint an ft after you know setting up the recurring subscription yeah I think there'd be some drop off um you know I don't think like that 99

of the world wouldn't do it 99 of the world wouldn't even know what the heck that it means and even for crypto need it's gas right now is just ridiculous on ethereum mainnet so I mean I would share and certainly after paying I'd be like I'm not paying 100 bucks to just in gas to Mint this it reduces the bear to entry and secondly it allows kind of combines the best of both web 2 and web3 it allows these writers to go take this nft use it wherever they want but still accept both cash and crypto are you using unlock protocol or how did you set up that nft membership TBD I I'll say there if there's a handful of players working on like kind of the recurring membership unlock is one Loop crypto is another TBD on on the exact addressing it's funny because that's what we're

doing for our newsletter except we're doing the kind of hack where we like plug into the API of stripe so like it works but it's not going to be a native experience like yours is so yours is gonna be much better so I can't wait for that to launch to be honest we just had to get something before before you guys figured it out yeah totally and so is there an incentive for the reader to collect the nft or is it just your choice it's fun right now there's no reason to to do it like do they get extra access to things like or because we don't give incentives then I wonder if people will ever do it yeah so the incentive is going to be up to the the writer to determine but I mean even Beyond incentive people are collecting

right now when there's no incentive like I think a lot of writing nfts right now people are collecting but I mean as you mentioned I don't think that's sustainable which I agree with going back to like the kind of subset comparison I think we've seen a lot of people create like dated discords they create dated live streams people are doing you know using kind of paragraph minted nfts and Beyond so I mean ultimately it'll be up to the writer to determine how to give incentive to that I'm very interested in also like Financial incentives like not just speculation but you know if you could give your first five collectors like one percent of your revenue for the year or something could provide a compelling reason to collect that even before you create content so I mean it could kind of be you know means to kick start your

publication start generating some level of Revenue before even producing but can people sell the nft like let's say they're done with they buy the year of a subscription and then they're three months in they're like okay I'm done can they sell it or it's not set up to do it that way yes they they'll be able to decide well again this is not implemented just yet but of course the way we're designing it is yes the you know readers will be able to sell it so potentially there could be secondary markets formed around like liar to your memberships if there's only you know a 10 of 10 that grains access to monthly calls with the writers yeah I think that's gonna be huge and I think there's going to be every membership is going to have that why would you not use an nft if you can create experiences elsewhere

and it allows the user to be able to sell it if they're done with it like it's just a no-brainer in all aspects so it's super cool we jumped ahead into monetization which I love because that was probably the topic most were excited about to discuss but I want to take a step back for a second I'm curious if you can give us an overview of the newsletter market and Industry because that's an area that's changed so much through the web as creators have been able to now basically become solo and entrepreneurs or small businesses and so we're seeing this wave of not just social media creators but journalists and professional writers becoming

creators I'm guessing that through starting paragraph you've done some market research can you give us an overview of where you think we're at currently and then maybe what you see 10 years from now what you think the future looks like yeah yeah definitely so I think historically there was essentially zero Network effects I think historically there was a writer that wanted to just create content put it out there so they self-hosted a website uh or maybe used blogger or one of the other kind of solutions like a decade ago and then they just put content out there and then maybe they emailed their friends they you know social media wasn't prevalent you know back then so they they kind of just put it out into the void for the sake of creating content I mean they didn't have a desire

to monetize they didn't have a desire to to engage with an audience necessarily like no no commenting and Beyond but they just want to create content put it out there so I think the world gradually moved more and more into social media realm so I think people were creating content sharing it with their friends Network effects started accruing on on some of these platforms I think medium was large for some period of time yeah allowed writers to create content but then again the the content and kind of relationship was facilitated by the platform the Raiders here did not have you know direct relationship necessarily With Their audience so they were kind of reliant on these plots forms so I think the current Trend which sub stack I think pioneered is putting less of an importance on the centralized intermediary that's kind of facilitating

this and allowing writers to get more of a direct relationship with their audience so the benefit of this is if you're you know a major journalist or you're somebody that has a very large audience you know if you're making like Pennies on the dollar either writing on medium or writing for you know a major news publication you'd be able to just tell your audience okay go pay five dollars a month from substack or on sub stack rather and then you'll get access to content that I can produce from the heart it doesn't have to go through an editorial board I can just write whatever I want so that was compelling to a lot of people I think a lot of writers moved over sub stack also paid a lot of writers to to move over as well kind of as a you know incentivizing them

to use the platform but that was what happened ultimately I think Beyond stuff stack there was also a handful of other there is also a handful of other players kind of on a similar kind of Journey there's ghosts there's beehive there's there's a bunch of different players I think sub stack is the furthest along and certainly for this long in terms of network effects in terms of product development in terms of growth and all of that but ghost I think is on a kind of a completely different Spectrum where they they have no network effects but they are very into self-hosting and you know you you have full flexibility it's open source you can Fork it and do whatever you want with it so I think the future I think the Creator economy is going to continue I mean as the internet proliferates worldwide as tools make it

even easier to start producing content and getting that content out there as new methods of monetization opened up like crypto has been talked about you know I think as as all these kind of different drawings begin sort of expanding a lot more I think it's going to allow more and more creators to do this full-time as they're able to sustain a living off of this so because of that I think there's going to need to be you know a lot of new tools and a lot of new products that open up to kind of cater to the desire of a lot of fees I'm betting that paragraph will become one of beasts obviously the hypothesis we're making is that there's going to be more and more of an importance on ownership like owning the relationship with your audience not not having sort of a central party facilitate how you

interact with them and I think that's kind of coming to light with the whole Twitter debacle and you know shutting off API access people and stuff stack can't share links to Twitter now Twitter can't you can't embed into substack Etc so yeah I think there's a lot of constraints now that are being placed which I think is bringing to light the importance of kind of an open ecosystem and composability a decade down the line I'm hoping that there'll be even more of an importance of this and there'll be an array of tools that allow people allow writers to build their audience on one platform seamlessly port to another platform monetize on another platform or protocol rather not not necessarily platform but just giving them a lot more flexibility in terms of how they build an audience how they distribute content and how they monitor yeah I think it's a

really exciting time to be a Creator it's a really exciting time to be a Founder an entrepreneur because there's never been this wave of tools being built for you to create a business to make money to have your own livelihood to work for yourself all these things that we all want we all dream about and you can do it now with way less friction you can start a business much easier you can be peer-to-peer with your customers you can have lower take rates I mean you didn't say the words take rate call in but like you were referring many times to one of the issues that we have with our current web 2 world is just like these massive take rates that basically

gouge make it impossible to be a small business owner they're very difficult too so it's really exciting to be a Creator right now and this reducing friction I think is just going to lead more and more people to start businesses whether it be million dollar businesses or whether it be small businesses that they're just running on the side we're just at the start of that wave so needless to say I also ambetting on paragraph because does everyone become a Creator though like I feel like we're obviously as as you said the internet becomes easier with less friction there's more and more creators right now I feel like at some point like we're all just going to be writing newsletters

we're all going to be content creators like I don't understand how that World's Gonna work maybe the this is where web3 comes in and we have all the composable content and stuff but that part's going to get a little bit crazy when we're just everyone as a Creator and trying to monetize it I don't know how that world's gonna look yeah I think it's it's yet to be seen like my hypothesis would be not not everybody would want to be a Creator I mean I think a lot of people are happy yeah I'm working nine to five I think of a paycheck and they have no desire to to do this you know I certainly think there's going to be a lot more creators than there are today they're you know there's going to be a fight for attention there's going to be a fight for people's time there already

is right now to the frame even with newsletters I mean I think you know a lot of people I imagine are getting newsletter fatigue getting 100 newsletters in their inbox every week so there's gonna have to be tools or and sort of processes to to deal with tick tocks approach on like an algorithmic feed is one example of one that may or may not be successful personalization I think more algorithmic recommendations could be you know another Network recommendations I think friends you have your friends vouch for an article pretty high signal yet to be seen Jay just before I don't know if you want to go in the AI conversation because I kind of wanted to go there next but one thing I want to talk about was the collect feature that's exactly what I wanted so outside of the monetization aspect we sort of touched on that but I think

there's more to collecting than just monetization you sort of touched on a little bit more of you can walk us through like what this is all going to mean you said you can collect the entire article that's kind of the mirror situation that they have right now where you collect an article but you said though is you guys have a way that you can collect like scripts of an article like little pieces from it what does that enable what does that unlock right like I get some people might want to do it because they like the quote or something and they'll have some people that collect because just people collect that's just what some humans do but to me I think that unlocks so much more creativity and just like potential of our content can you walk us through what you're kind of seeing with that sort of

collect feature yeah definitely so you know I think collectibles in general I think are kind of a combination of patronage access social status and you know whatever other form of Engagement that exists it could be up to the Creator to provide sort of a closer form of Engagement to collectors it could be up to platforms like paragraph to provide different mechanisms of using this nft in different ways the possibilities are large they so with the the collectible content feature that we we launched or rather the collectible highlights we're calling it so it allows readers to go in highlight a piece of text potentially an image potentially a quote and then collect that so the writer would have the ability to set a fee they could Supply you know they could do whatever they want here the motivation for building this or you know

some of the motivation for building this was it provides feedback to the writer you know if a lot of people are collecting you know a single article or a rather single sentence I mean potentially the writer would then double down on that sentence and and maybe yeah it just provide sort of a form of feedback to them on top of this art and sort of creativity in general it is obviously large in the nft space and in the digital space more broadly I think like kind of the intersection between art and writing within the nft space is kind of missing so you know within paragraph with the collectible post feature you can upload an image you can customize it you can do whatever you want with that and you know we're going to be launching in the future as well the ability to kind of customize some of

these quotes customize these collectibles other kind of use cases that we're investigating is related to remixing content I think web3 there's been a lot of discussion on co-creation and remix ability I don't think there's been a whole lot of development I think that I'm looking in that space but the fact that all these objects are digitally native you can have Smart contracts that determine what gets done and see who to allocate funds to Etc I I do think that there's a large opportunity for creating content together remixing content together and then getting paid appropriately so you can imagine this feature that we launched somebody could come up with some original idea or some hot take or whatever and then other people would be able to just riff off of this so they'd be able to collect this content and then just kind of run with it so what they're

doing is propagating this idea first of all second of all they're adding their own take on it like they're adding their commentary they're kind of providing value by talking about it right so why not reward them for for proliferating this you can think of it like memes right like someone creates a meme like oh that's a good meme I want to create my own version that mean you take it you change the words that's on it to make sense for whatever joke you're coming up with and people love that and they go viral well the original creator that need maybe should be rewarded whether that's financially or just in terms of their name being put out there that's what this allows you to do because you could take the quote I mean I started Instagram account years ago in the health space where all I did was take

quotes from people like Health quotes and I put them on a cool picture of like a surfer or a beach and I just put on top of each other and posted Instagram and I gained over 10 000 followers just from doing that and that's basically remixing content but I was just stealing content now now I can actually like share in the value that I was creating or at least like shout out who it was because they'll see on chain that I took this quote from this writer in this image from this photographer and then put them together and that's kind of remixing which you see this with music and this will be I mean this is what Tick Tock is basically and so you're kind of doing this natively where you can either share revenues share the creator of it like the name and stuff

and so you're basically providing a service or a tool for that which I think is going to be really cool the other thing I think people will collect for is people like to brag about the quotes they care about people put them on their walls right like how many people have quotes on their for photos and stuff on their walls I think it's like Pinterest people make boards and collect them I think people will do that and create galleries around the quotes they like or the articles that they they really appreciate so I can see a lot of use case coming from this outside of like actually creating utility like you collect 10 of these and you get to join this event or this Discord or whatever so I think there's just I call it programmable content I don't know if that's a thing yet people are saying but

that's what I I just presented at the Creator economy Expo and that's what I was explaining this as you can do anything you want with this content once it's an nft so the possibilities are endless I think it's really cool yeah on that note I was featured in a newspaper when I was maybe 10 years old I don't remember what I did I think I I won a karate competition or something but I was featured in this local newspaper so my parents and myself were very ecstatic obviously I was 10 years old so we drove around collecting all these newspapers from every wear and then just cut out the section where we were in and then just created like a scrapbook of this section repeatedly right so like that has not existed in the digital world a lot of people love scrapbooking they love you know if you're featured in

something just just being able to kind of collect and permanently own this in the physical space so your note like that's exactly like what this exactly to do well that's awesome what are the mechanics of this collectible highlights does it mint to the nft when I pick my quote does it assign like a royalty that goes can I sell that does it go to the open market can I assign a royalty like take us through the mechanics of it yeah so the the writer sets the cost and supply and chain we support a handful of chains and then these are kind of reader driven nft minting it's by the reader which also I think is kind of a unique thing I think typically it you know it has sort of been the Creator that decides this so after a reader goes onto

a paragraph newsletter they literally highlight a piece of text that resonates with them and then there's going to be a little pop-up that shows the the supply the cost everything like that and then they hit collect so these are all lazy minted so as soon as the user hits collect then the nft is minted at that time the smart contract is deployed uh the smart contract ownership is transferred to the Creator so they they're owning the smart contract and then the nft that's minted is then transferred to the collector all that happens whenever the user hits collect and then the text is highlighted like literally highlighted on the post for other users Kindle does this as well yeah right where you can see like how many people have highlighted a certain quote or whatever that's super cool so is that experience very easy like could

anyone do that they could yeah yeah anyone see this anyone with the crypto wallets and right of course this is how web3 plays out right like people don't even they know they're collecting something but they probably don't even necessarily know it's an idea or what blockchain it's on like it's just like I want that quote I want to use it somewhere I want to collect it and they just highlight it and boom all of a sudden they created a smart contract and they have another T in their wallet and it's like a couple years ago you would have had to actually write that smart contract now it's just you highlight something boom there it is that's exactly what we want to see that's super cool this leads to sort of connect back to what you talked about with the membership of token gating because now

you have another token in the hands of your readers in your audience and most likely I'm gonna guess those are probably your bigger fans right you have fans who have your membership and that's probably your entry level and maybe even have tears within that then you have people who collect your posts which I'm going to guess is a Next Level and then you probably have people who collect specific quotes the highlights as you mentioned which is another level and what you could do is with web 3 you could say okay if you have those three things because the smart contract is programmable then you get access to this special report that I put out or whatever new piece of content or you get access to a discount on an event I get

so excited when I think about this ability to like stack the engagement that my users are having and then reward them based upon their engagement so you're actually rewarding your super fans whereas right now you think about the way we do this this is the example I always use somebody posts on Instagram they're like we're gonna you know give away whatever to our audience but you gotta like the post you gotta comment you gotta tag three people and it's like none of that is done on chain you don't actually know who these people are is this the first time they're liking your stuff have they liked it before right like you're not rewarding you're super fans you're just basically doing a Sweepstake and you're just giving

something away you're just grabbing attention but you're not creating Community where your super fans are like oh wow the more I engage with this Creator the more they do for me so I'm going to engage more in the future and then boom Community is built you've got to mode around your business you last for for 100 years yeah absolutely the fact that these are all Primitives the fact that they're accessible across the entire ecos system yeah I think there's a lot that can be done here I think what we're trying to do at paragraph is decide like first of all make it as easy as possible to both create these Primitives to create these nfts but also make use of these we have gated access but like we're also exploring for example Early Access if not dated necessarily but early right so maybe for example like the biggest fans the people

who collect quotes or maybe posts will get access to your content a day early but then it gets sent out to everybody after that right so well that's cool yeah I think there's a lot that can be done here it's just up to us to determine how to do this and also I mean we've talked a lot about access but there's a lot that can be done Beyond access there's like the financial incentives potentially people get rewarded for referring or for sending your newsletter Beyond so I think there's a lot that can be done and I think we're kind of at the the start of the uh exploration here well this doesn't even get into then you can also have a social token around your newsletter or around your business and that can give Equity or governance and now when they collect things they can

also get other but let's not go down that rabbit hole yeah I don't give more questions I want to get on the AI subject for a second yeah I think this big one for this okay here's and I don't know if you guys are doing anything with this yet but the thing that continues to be on my mind and when I was at the Creator economy Expo we talked about a lot is with this Cambridge explosion of AI tools creating content has become also frictionless so monetizing content is frictionless but so is creating it now I can write a newsletter at two in the morning when I'm half asleep with one eye open using chat GPT it's pretty damn good you know what I mean it takes me like 10 minutes whereas I could not do that a couple months ago and so this means that everything from podcasts to

newsletters to videos to tweets to whatever are going to just be so easy to create using AI now you still need a human to give their own opinions and so like I don't think this necessarily ruins content but it definitely becomes now an oversaturation of it because anyone can create it and you can just create so much of it how is paragraph thinking about this let's just start with that I agree you know I'm an avid user of chai GPT for content and Beyond and I and see how easy it is to generate things seamlessly so I would argue that there there already is an oversaturation of content though I mean I certainly think that very tender is going to be a lot lower it's going to be easier to generate content but I mean like looking at any of the a lot of like the blogging

websites out there like people are going to be creating low cost like SEO content regardless so I think that there's going to be in the future more of an importance on we kind of touched upon this earlier but like personalization being able to serve content that's very relevant to you in the case of a strictly web 3 context potentially looking at your you know maybe the nfts that you hold maybe the engagement that I have on farcaster the things I chat about because it's all public and permissionless you know and then serving content based on that algorithmic recommendations as well I you know I think the tick tock ask feed I also think a lot of these large language models they confidently generate incorrect information they hallucinate so citations and sources and kind of fact checking I think will be more important in the future Twitter's recent

launch where they they show Twitter Community notes I think it's called they show like sort of community sourced yeah little disclaimer you know below kind of controversial tweets showing that it's it's true or false expanding those surface areas you know beyond kind of that lend itself I think to kind of preventing some of this you know misinformation that would come as a result of this we haven't done anything specifically yet on this but I think it's coming and I think there's a handful of things that we're thinking about to try to help do you think that there will be some new method for us to verify provenox of like writing specifically not just you know we were seeing this issue will exist across all forms of content but particularly within writing and Publishing do you think that

we will see that and any insight into how you think that might play out yes I I think we'll see it I don't think it'll be a new form of prominence I think it'll be an old form I I think it'll be just signing like everybody with a cryptocurrency wallet has a public private key like sign a message using your private key anybody can verify that it's from you giving your public key so I think Fred Wilson published a post basically saying sign everything in the future to confirm that it's going to come from you right and not sort of an impersonator I think we've seen like recently Drake dropped a few uh like pretty good to be honest we're pretty good I already like narrated music videos you know so there's concerns I was listening to it my girlfriend was like oh Drake dropped a new song and I

was like yeah full AI so if he has a public key that's available to everybody like everybody would be able to confirm that it truly came from him but note that this is for impersonation this doesn't help with if Drake starts spewing incorrect facts right like you could still sign it saying it came from him but it's still misinformation to a certain extent so but but at least it now his reputation is on the line right that's the key thing is like you're gonna give a lot less fake content or like you know wrong facts if it's like hurts your reputation whereas if everyone was posting pretending to be Drake and we had no way to tell anyone could say anything and there's no consequences right so at least this kind of puts the responsibility in the person

or on the person but I don't know we'll see how that plays out yeah and I think a lot of this is contingent on public private key signing taking off I don't necessarily see Drake doing this anytime soon yeah right I hope but yeah I agree with that I know that you guys launched AI powered writing a month ago I believe or maybe it was March sorry if I'm getting my dates wrong I want to chat about that because I think we've talked about collectibility we've talked about nft memberships but I feel like AI powered writing is really the third leg or the third feature that paragraph really offers to writers I want to highlight that a little bit and give you a chance to to share some more about that yeah definitely so we integrated with Chachi BT so writers within the paragraph editor when they're composing

content and they are now able to generate a title just given you know content that they're writing about they can also generate an outline so it'll be sort of a bullet point list of kind of what what you should talk about given sort of a sentence input or you could generate a full draft so you'd be able to say how is web free changing publishing and then it gives you its thoughts on that you can also directly query gpd4 in the editor so if you have a certain if you want a sentence to be improved you'd be able to query it and ask it for that on top of that it can also generate like sentences like continue on a paragraph that you're writing as well as generate paragraphs based on like what you're currently writing I'm an AI Optimist I am a big believer that it's going to be you know

it lowers the barrier to entry to good content to a large degree it allows people to half a sleep to produce content I'm viewing it as a tool that people will be able to to use to meaningfully improve their writing I mean we've talked a lot also about the Creator economy in general and more and more creators being able to sustain a living so if this allows them to do that I'm all for it and it's the next step of content creation I mean previous to this Google was the next step right it was like okay instead of going to a library to reach or reading the newspaper to research just type it into Google and it saves you x amount of time right and now gpt4 and AI in general is the same thing right now instead of going to Google Just Right in here not only will it

research for you but also execute and write it for you doesn't mean you just go and hit publish you still got to go review it put your own touch on it your humor your personalization your opinions but again it just makes writing more efficient so it's a natural Next Step so I'm also a big Optimist and absolute love as well I think it's great that you guys are already incorporating it in you guys are ahead of I mean I don't think sub stack bi or anything I've done that so good to see you guys for doing that already let's talk a little bit about growth and I'm just curious like you guys been around for a little while now we've been through a web 3 bear market for you know a little year and a half almost has that impacted you guys what's that kind of been like building through

that and then I guess the other question around that is like who are the people that are even using paragraph right now I mean we are web 3 natives so we get this stuff this makes so much sense we're so excited are you finding that non-webster people are starting to get excited about it or even like are they wrapping their head around it or are we stuck to this head audience until we go a little bit more mainstream yes they'll answer the bear Market question first so I would say that we have not been impacted to a very large degree I mean certainly like liquidity for nfts is a lot lower certainly crypto in general is a lot lower but we're still building the products like we still have users people are still paying for you know recurring subscriptions people are still we're getting a substantial amount of usage

still the key concern for startups in general at this point not necessarily paragraph but just startups in general is just extending Runway can you survive can you get to profitability can you feel all this stuff so we're a team of three all Engineers so you know I think we've been very conservative on the like burn front I'm not concerned about the bear so to answer your your second question if you are the users you know what are we seeing the go to market is focused on web3 Native writers I think the product resonates the most with them and I mean the easiest to start with kind of a community of dedicated users that find the product greats and then kind of expand after that so I would say the user base right now is split between Dao's nft communities and individual writers so you know Dao's there's like

Pub Dao there's a bunch of writing doubts but also beyond that Global coin research is an investment Dao forecaster has a Dao writing on paragraphs when it comes to nft communities there's a bunch of people with existing tokens that have a desire to tokengate content to incentivize purchasing this token but also to provide internal Communications to only these token holders so like the official crypto Community has a newsletter there Doodles has a community run newsletter there that an nft Community called the wolf pups who are extremely active on paragraph when it comes to individuals yeah a bunch of regular writers it kind of ranges from web3 die hards to people that have an interest in web3 but may not necessarily be fully onboarded just yet I've had to help people on board you know a handful

of times and in conversations they said you know I really feel passionate about decentralized Asian I just I'm not very familiar with it just yet so again kind of going back to the deliberate approach we took designing paragraph using the kind of web 2.5 angle where you could sign up with the email you can check a box to publish on our if you can all of that's been delivered to kind of support these users you know as we kind of continue forward I mean depending on market conditions and all that but we're planning on expanding Beyond just the web 3 native writers I mean everything we talked about so far can benefit just everybody I think there's just ux challenges with doing that there's if people don't have crypto if people aren't familiar with different chains we need to kind of be thoughtful in our

approach what is the thing that gets like the non-web through people to start using this I mean like you have most of the features that sub stack and beehive and all the map if not more with the AI stuff and then you have all this additional stuff like collects and things which can create cooler experiences which I think some writers will start to know I mean I know a lot of writers that want to give their customers access a new Discord or some sort of community thing and they just can't so I think like that is a cool thing that does it is there's something else like how do you guys compare in terms of like maybe fees and stuff like sub stack takes 10 what you guys are thinking about there or how much you can share on that but curious how you kind

of stand up towards some of the others in that in that sense yeah so the the monetization model we have I would say subject to change right now but we we're taking five percent on nft transactions as well as in the future when we launch recurring subscription so yeah being sub stack on that front I think it depends on like what the sub stock writer cares about to be honest I think some people like see the AI stuff and it's all shiny and new and then that's sufficient to get them to move over I think other people see like what's happening on Twitter and they care a lot more about ownership but they may not necessarily care about web free so I mean if we could design this in a way where we emphasize the importance of owning a relationship with your audience that's good enough you can't embed Twitter into

sub stack and then a lot of people's sub stack posts are just Twitter embeds so we've had a handful of people come over saying like I just want to embed tweets you know I think the distribution monetization angle as well I mean if people care about we've chatted with some people they don't want to pay wall content on sub stack but they still want to monetize maybe they have large fans but they to still make money so I think collectible content is is a great way of doing that which sub stack doesn't offer smart Freedom right they want freedom to monetize in the way they want to monetize like substack is chosen the I guess what we all have said is the best one right subscriptions makes the most sense but there's many different reasons this why you might monetize in different ways and why you might want to give

different features and close systems like that they just don't allow you do it they do hey here's what we think is the best that's all you get to do whereas you're saying we'll do that one but we're also going to give you basically any other option you want that's the way Creator platforms should exist so that we can express and monetize in all the ways that we want so yeah it's super cool one final question before we do a little bit of a wrap up and a speed round are you thinking at all we've talked a lot on the show about the future of communication peer-to-peer wallet to wallet perhaps will email last long term is email going to eventually be a thing of the past just curious if you guys think at all about that how a writer

publisher will communicate with their readers long term obviously I know right now email is the way but in the future I think in the short term yeah as you mentioned I think email is not going away one kind of interesting thing about email I mean it's it's built on SMTP that's a decentralized protocol right anybody could use SMTP but over time the power has gone to like three or four players right like Gmail everybody has a Gmail address so I think over time we've trended a bit more towards centralization with email for better for worse I think Gmail's spam protection is phenomenal I used to work on anti-abuse with Gmail and other yeah so I'm a bit biased but you know so I think in the short term not going away in the slightly longer term I think that there are avenues for on-chain message

delivery on chain newsletter delivery and I think if everybody has a crypto wallet in the future I mean it just makes sense for that to be used as a delivery mechanism I'm one unique thing that crypto has which email it doesn't is just money transfer like you can given a crypto wallet just send Fiat or certain hop yachts and crypto to it so I think it would make sense for communication to kind of be the next large utility of owning a crypto wallet I also think it opens up new forms of Engagement like for example you can imagine you know people are token gating based on Doodle holders on paragraph like what if you just reach out to all doodle holders period there's new use cases that are open as a result of that we're actually exploring this or we have explored this you know adding in support

for some type of launching message delivery protocol but the conclusion was it's just a bit early the other thing that it makes you wonder when when everything becomes n of T everything's now composable right so like right now the way that social media works the way that we experience content on the Internet is like let's say you're on Twitter that's your text and now there's video on there but then if you also want to see content from newsletters you can't except for newsletter people will take the link and then they'll share it over on Twitter and then if you want to read that you click it and that brings you over to a new platform to Now read that stuff and then if you also want music you click on that link and it takes you to a different platform but when everything's nft it'll all be

potentially and I could see it going this way it's like everything's just all curated in one platform or in whatever platform you want right like every app can have its own interface and the one you like the best but you can see all forms of content and so instead of having a newsletter platform a music flat streaming platform a text platform it's like it all could just be in one and it's just pulling from all the different platforms that you decide to publish on so I think it's not just the way that we communicate and send it to people it's also the way that we'll just come across it or I guess the distribution will change I don't know how it'll play out but that's just something I continue to think about I 100 agree I think like one example of somebody doing this already is yup they

aggregate across near forecaster lens we got to call it them potentially paragraphs shortly that's one example of like you you publish on a tool that you want like you publish on a tool that you it's your need the best and then your readers can read it wherever exactly it's never the best right like you're not constrained into one platform or one protocol or one ecosystem you could move there's full interoperability across all of these that's what excites me the most that's super cool by the way I just messaged you up so if you want to uh give me a little you know intro to them it's just amazing to think if you're listening to this episode right now good for you because we touched on so many areas that are changing for both Publishers for readers for both sides like there's changes happening so fast

right now we're in this exponential age and if you don't keep up then you will fall behind so kudos to everybody that's here because you know something the rest of the world doesn't know your first to the party and I know it doesn't necessarily feel like it in a bear Market but it will pay off so Keep On Truckin keep on doing you're gonna make it we're all gonna make it I know we don't love wag me sometimes but I love that tournament so I believe it Colin I want to get to a speed round but before we do I just want to give you a chance to or can people follow a paragraph online where can people learn more about paragraph anything you want to say to potential writers Publishers or to readers maybe to bring them into your world yeah definitely so paragraph.xyz

is the URL we have a pretty active Discord you know it's full of users it's full of writers it's full of people discussing content you'll find that on the website or paragraph.xyz slash Discord if you're looking to to get started and jump into it I mean the platform is free and open for everybody you can sign up with an email or connect your wallet we have a pretty detailed documentation website docs.paragraph.xyz as well if you're looking to take advantage of some of the token getting or some of the other kind of deeper functions that we offer from a reader's perspective we have you know a handful of discover and kind of feed functionality on the platform right now again just go to the website you'll see it so so there's a lot of web3 native writers that are producing content so I mean if you're looking for you know

another way of consuming this content I mean we we offer it directly on the platform I'm also very accessible I mean you know if you're a writer looking non-board or just you know interested in learning more feel free to reach out to me directly my email is calling at paragraph.xyz again also very active in Discord and on socials don't hesitate to reach out more than happy to chat watch out given your email on the show oh but you might get a few emails coming in your inbox now Colin but appreciate the openness you're a true open source developer you know running your business always available I love it we need more Founders like that in the space we'll include uh the links that you mentioned in the show notes we won't put your email in the show notes so that's only

for people who actually listen to the show okay speed round before we wrap here a couple quick questions coming at you first one what's your favorite web3 or AI tool that you're using these days yeah so Ray a cast I think it's not specific to AI or web3 but it's uh you know Mac products and basically Spotlight replacement there's tons of plugins you know it integrates with GitHub notion like fire Caster integrates with Chachi BT as well directly so yeah just with a single key command you could search the cross notion you could search Barca so you could ask chat keeping I started using shotgun BT more as a result of the accessibility great cast yeah definitely gonna check that out one thing you've

bought recently for under 100 that brings you Joy yeah my mechanical keyboard I have historically only used regular keyboards I don't know what I've been doing the past decade but I invested in a mechanical keyboard what is a mechanical keyboard I don't even know what that means man I'm like showing my nerdiness here I think it's uh a keyboard that is strictly mechanical it has switches it has keycaps it has a bunch of different parts that are mechanical more more physical and then sort of standard keyboards the haptic feedback that you get from touching it The Sound it's gonna I really enjoyed typing a lot more oh man that was a I'm showing my emergency recruiter a reaction from you guys about that

I got an Apple keyboard I stick with it it's easy well not at Kyle Ross are Engineers you're an engineer so we're nerds but we all nerd out on our own things okay last question if you had a billboard that one billion people were going to see what would you write on it one thing that comes to mind is just be present from like a personal standpoint I feel like I've always kind of like set goals and then I was headed down focused on that little playing from high school wanted to get in a good University from University you want to get a good internship from The Internship get a good job from the job I mean I I really wanted to do my own thing at some point so I feel like kind of not being fully present not sort of focused on the opportunities that you're

pursuing right now and that that you've been kind of given and you know not even opportunities but just your personal life and all of that I feel like it's easy to kind of miss things that are you should not be missing so it's good to kind of celebrate the successes that you have focusing a bit more on the present and the Here and Now is something that I I've learned and I've been trying to take more of an immediate effort in doing so and I think I've seen that with others as well so true and if you want to be present you can go to paragraph.xyz right now and you can collect highlight Collins be president nft exactly wanna own this memorialize it Colin thanks so much for the time thanks for really Paving the way for newsletter writers and Publishers to take advantage

of web3 and to own Their audience to own their content and to develop new ways to interact with their fans and with their readers I think what you're building a paragraph is truly going to change the future of the writer and Publishing economy so very deep Bal thank you for all your effort yeah I really appreciate it thanks again proud of me on the podcast I really enjoyed this conversation fantastic thanks for listening and everybody have yourself a great week thank you for listening to web3 Academy we hope this helps you along your web 3 Journey if it does please share this episode And subscribe so you don't miss the next one nothing in this podcast was Financial advice crypto and web 3 can be risky you can literally lose it all in fact if you

invest on account of what we say you probably will lose it all so don't do that in all honesty the point of this podcast is to remove the noise of markets and price and focus on utility and implementation anyway so you should not take any of this as Financial advice thank you friends and see you in the next one