Citrea: Modular Rollup Framework on Bitcoin - Orkun Mahir Kilic. Ep. 573

Transcript

so Bitcoin issues like you said is every four years it's just goes half and eventually it will hver to zero rollups are using the L1 as a DA layer so we post our data to Bitcoin in the form of ZK proofs and state diffs which is a bit more optimized form of just sending pure transaction data and we compress them send them to bitcoin so we do two things at the same time we achieve uh the Bitcoin level security because the data is there and we also pay miners had to be incentivized to keep the HH rate high and get more fees and just continue the chain and without reducing its security and right now data size of doing a Bitcoin transfer on citr is 15 times

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compatible nosis chain or secure the network with just one gno and affordable Hardware start your decentralization journey today at nosis doio hello and welcome to appic Center I'm your host Felix luch and today I'm here with the co-creator of citria orun kich hi orun and welcome to a center hi Hi Felix thank you for having me yeah great to have you um as usual on on every we kind of want to start with how you how you got into crypto citria is a uh L2 like a ZK roll up on on bitcoin so today's topic will be

probably a lot about like sort of like Bitcoin programmability um things around that and you know I guess want to probably know how you how you ended up in that space and how you started to work in EN crypto so like please yeah sure um so I'm work on I'm one of the four co-founders of chain mail Labs the show contributors of craa and the CEO actually I got into crypto and Bitcoin maybe like five or six years from now and when I was in college I was getting some scholarship to some Crypt based application basically uh and then I started to learn how to open a wallet how to receive funds then how to do off uh to spend in local market I'm from

Turkey Istanbul so I was studying there and then I started wondering okay these are working fine but it doesn't hit to the bank or like it doesn't use any uh conventional infrastructure so how do I receive this funds how can I be sure that I'm actually receiving the funds and I started looking into it I obviously heard about bit in a lot but then I encountered this is actually something technological and like based on computer science and distributed systems and cryptography and I started uh digging deep back in those days I was doing web development for regular web 2 stuff uh But as time comes I I felt more more and more interesting uh then I started basically building smart

contracts uh I first tried to build something on bitcoin but I realized I don't know anything about script and this is very hard to do something on bitcoin then I discovered solidity and started building programs on evm compatible chains um but after a couple years uh doing that uh I realized I want to build products I don't want to work on like different stuff building smart contracts and move on to another thing I wanted to build some real products that people can actually use and that's how we actually started our company maybe two and a half years ago uh in stanbul with my friends from college uh we initially worked a bit on privacy on ethereum uh and then orinal thing came

up to bitcoin uh this was early last year uh May around two years ago actually we saw that some Bitcoin developer built something called ordinals that enables people to embed some arbitrary data to bitcoin and we thought okay this is cool but how this can be even useful uh then we start people are actually printing image on bitcoin then they try to build exchange to I sell this image with Bitcoin and then things got more and more interested and we realized okay people can actually do decentralized exchange of Bitcoin and I previously thought this was not possible when I first entered the space so we wanted to play around it uh play around with it and in two months we

decided to build uh a basically orinal supporting Bitcoin wallet uh in a month we built it released to the public and I think in three months we had more than 10K users so it was a bit success for us uh and meanwhile we also learned a lot about Bitcoin script and orals uh and building a wallet is basically you built the foundation for a super app and we realize okay let's just build an exchange in the wallet and just buil an incription service in the wallet uh maybe even some account obstruction features that we can build and around that time we were doing designs like some paper sket on whiteboard but eventually are design converged more and

more into building actually a rollup on bitcoin because we were trying to add com programmability to bitcoin by doing client side validation as ZK proofs uh because we previous with ZK proofs for privacy we knew that how to do how to do it and eventually we realize okay we are actually Reinventing rollups uh and we focused on this direction and realize okay we can actually build rollups on Bitcoin today uh with maybe some broken bridge mechanism but we could fix it in the long we believe and then we simply started building building it this was I think May last year just before ECC uh and in EC I also talked with some rollup builders get some validation um and then

fully focused on this idea basically this was our whole history and then a lot of stuff happened in Bitcoin new mining pools came orinal infrastructure changed a lot and thean paper came out I think one of the biggest breakthroughs in like last maybe four or five years init coin history maybe even longer and then yeah we simply become Citra uh cleared our road map and make everything open source in our GitHub repos assist that we have been building nonstop and today C is live on bitcoin test awesome yeah thanks for for the call there so basically you'd say like I guess ordinals kind of pave the way to show something is possible after all to

to bring programmability to to bitcoin and then like bit VM is a is another big breakthrough there it sounds like that enables enables also CA from from my understanding so can you explain a little bit what what BVM does and how you how you leverage that for the rollup yeah basically for like to enable the current form of Citra you need two things one you need to be able to put your ZK proofs on bitcoin uh which is being a must to be a ZK roll up and this is enabled fits not ordinance but inscriptions as the term that enables putting arbitrary data on bitcoin they are not images what we put it is just pure bite data which is the serialized form of the ZK proof and this is the one thing that enables craa and I think even

most importantly is we need to be able to verify those proofs on bitcoin so that we can have a trust minimize bridge to move our Bitcoin from main chain to Citra and this is enabled with bitm basically so bitm is introduced I think October last year just exactly maybe a year ago by Robin Linus Bitcoin research and then it changed a lot uh since now maybe like two three version came and it's still work in progress but the most basic idea is we can uh divide the huge ZK verification uh algorithm into chunks and then we can optimistically verify the CK proof using this chunks um but we will still get the same level of security because if there's something

wrong someone can challenge the ZK proof and verify a single part of it so that Bitcoin can know Z proof is correct or not so that we can even move the straight forward and continue the roll up or just slash the uh adversary operator all right okay and so basically these uh operators like are part of the citria network or how what are like sort of the roles in in that citria Network yeah I think in like regular etherum secops it's very clear you have like sequencer and then you have the Prov the sequenc just orders the transaction Andover generates the proof and verifies on ethereum by just sending to a Smart

contract but in bitm things are a bit different uh that we don't do verification for every single proof instead we just wait and aggregate them together to save some cost to do a transaction on bitcoin so the idea is we still have a sequenc Andover uh which is run by us and they do the the same thing with eum but they sent the proof into Bitcoin but not immediately verif they just inscribe and full nodes get confirmation this is still like an etherum Z up but then after we have a set set of operators and verifiers this is a terminology coming from BVM and these operators are responsible uh to pay that people are withdra from craa if you want to withdraw let's say Bitcoin

from craa you just burn your BTC and request your Bitcoin to a Bitcoin address and one of these operators pay you uh the Bitcoin and then after couple weeks uh this is currently 14 days they go to the main chain and say that look this is the latest finalized approve and you can see that this user requested this Bitcoin to be sent and I actually sent that Bitcoin now I want my Bitcoin back and this is simply a proposal that's put into Bitcoin and in a week let's say everyone agreed that this guy is honest he actually paid uh the the user and the proof is correct then they simply sign a transaction and operate get reimbursed but if there's something

wrong let's say operator is trying to steal money by showing some invalid CK proof that any of these verifiers can go on chain and challenge the operator and eventually the operator will get slashed and it won't be able to get any money from the bridge so this is one of and Trust assumption uh similar to arbitrum today let's say um but on the other side this is not an optimistic rollup it's a ZK rollup but the bridging mechanism is optimistic and similar to arbitrum breach right okay very interesting and so these time frames like 14 7 days you mentioned they they're just like the optimistic window or are they related to the finality or the chunking of these

proofs or yes so the finaly is actually still the same with all the rollups because once we sent the proof into Bitcoin then all the full nod see that proof because they rely on bitcoin security uh once that proof is min then Bitcoin blockchain then you can make be sure that this is actually final so there cannot be double spend the only finality that you need to wait is while you are withdrawing from the chain and this also the operator taking their risk because they simply prepay you and then Reimers later so this is all becoming the operator's risk and they are economically incentivized to be uh honest because if they do something malicious they will get slashed

eventually and and their incentive to actually pay you before I guess it's like sort of almost like intent or something where you then get it like yeah it's actually like an intent and even our software is intent as the user simply starts reducing the desired amount one by one and releasing some signature to The Operators just like an intent saying that I burned 10 Bitcoin and I can get can I get like 9.9 bitc and if there's no answer reduce to 9.8 and then 9.7 and eventually one of the operators become profitable because they let's say already have Bitcoin treasury then they will pay me 9.7 Bitcoin and in two weeks they will get 10 Bitcoin back

so they will have 0.3 BTC in profit so it is just like an intent I'm doing fast withdrawal from the bridge but the difference from difference from the ethereum intent is this is the only way of doing withraw on ethereum let's say on arbitrum if you don't do intent then you can go to the native Bridge wait s day and get your money back but on bitcoin we don't have the co anoun which is a special form of transaction type let's say and then that's why we need those operators to actually pay us but they're incentivized to pay us because we are paying some fee to them in exchange for fast withdrawal from the chain right so we meaning the the user of the citria rollup or is citria itself also sort of incentivizing these rollups

potentially uh these s these operators yeah The Operators are getting some fees and eventually uh the rup can decide as some point maybe share some transaction fees with them as well but right now in our architecture their main Revenue mechanism is the fees from withdrawals and also if there's no withdrawals they don't have any cost they just running a hardware maybe cost $100 per month so it's basically virtual nothing for an operator and unless there is a withdrawal they're happy if there's a withdrawal they're getting fees so they're still happy uh so nothing to worry about the economics of operators actually right right right right okay cool yeah very interesting and so the rest of the concern like you said it's

kind of like normal ZK roll up you have some sequencer it's initially centralized maybe yes some yeah yeah it's initially uh single run by us together with the prer uh in our road map we have this first peer-to-peer Network for sequencer so that we can enable maybe like fast six for the notes and then eventually decentralize the sequencer and maybe also decouple the sequencer with Pro or maybe keep the same uh so that every let's say sequence that proposed block should also prove their block but that's still is specs but initially our main net fi be single prog single uh operator single signal cool yeah very interesting and so

um this construction relies on BBM I think there's there's also like other rollups in Bitcoin or other ways to bring programmability I guess there's also like op cat or you know what are what's the differences there like on a high level I guess and and what are like kind of the trade-offs yeah yeah so in the in the high level we know Bitcoin also like we know lightning like all of us like uh lightning and it's eventually proposed payment solution for Bitcoin where you can open Channel between parties and send receive BTC through that channels um but liting has been around maybe for the last like six years uh but still

it's way behind like the scalability solutions on other chains I would say uh the channels itself is like very interactive and it requires you to manage the liquidity which is very hard to do self custo really that's why I think today majority of lightning vs are pastorial because no user can run a lightning not very easily if they're not highly technical so that's the one thing that's obviously the biggest the wellknown uh Bitcoin scale solution other than that there were side chains has been around since 2014 uh similar to polygon to eum there are many side chains to bitcoin uh let's say liquid root stock uh Stacks uh but the side chains I think now everyone knows this

but back in those days it was very popular and it was think way to like scale the Bitcoin but eventually there are different chains with their own economics with their own validator sets they need to incentivize their valid with fees and so they're simply stealing the fees from Bitcoin main chain and pay to their own operators so I wouldn't say like side chains are scalable Solutions and I think this also wellknown fact in ethereum land too uh that's why most people try to build rollups because they're more aligned with T1 uh that side chains and other than that there are still lot of experimental stuff like you mentioned opat uh which is a proposed op code to be implemented in Bitcoin and if it get implemented that

potentially theoretically we can build a start verifier natively without doing this optimistic challenge response thing with BPM so that we can just have a regular AUM like smart contracts where we can move the state forward we can verify the ZK proofs and but Bitcoin social consensus is hard like uh we we get last softw three years ago it for step route and now it's still a bit messed like no one knows which software uh should get activated in the future there's opk there's op CB uh there's gra script restoration there are all different op codes like software proposals um but no one like the Bitcoin Community hasn't still agreed on cat um

I think personally I'm in favor of it because it makes everything much easier uh but like I said there are also potential risks of adding an A Drop codes because they're open any way to do things which should be well analyzed um but yeah it's it's complicated but and very experimental but today with VM and combined withraw UPS is the best you can get in terms of the security uh and the the centralization right so BBM doesn't introduce any new opon any changes it's already it's just works today that's that's the beauty of sitra yeah yeah but it's also like still developing separately like sort of the BVM proposer or is that a team working

on that are you contributing to that also or yeah so the good question yeah the bitm started with Robin's paper and Robin has a nonprofit called zero sync uh funded by St a couple more open source Bitcoin development companies to actually build uh ZK proofs for Bitcoin chain but now their focus is BVM and it was an open source code base and it's still open source everyone can contribute but also five teams including our team and zeroing formed something called BVM Alliance uh this was actually two weeks ago I think that Alliance is trying to complete the BVM implementation in the next 100 days uh to actually put a proof on mainnet and

verify it uh because open source development is great but it's without coordination we are all working on the same issues without knowing what we are doing uh so this Alliance is mainly a cont coordination mechanism between the major contributors of the BVM but other than that there are still many teams opening PR to BVM contributing to it the Allies is just a coordination mechanism like I said they're not owning the BVM repos story or the idea it is still fully open source awesome yeah that's really cool sound sounds great and so the that will like the next 100 days like two weeks ago so I guess like yeah we have around two three months some point next quarter

yeah actually like end of this year is their Target because they become a bit like started a bit early uh we have a internal BVM ZK team that's fully contributing and they're actually much more optimistic than end of the year uh to do a proof of concept but obviously something needs to be run on Main net and it should require like a lot of audits uh maybe even some like canots uh to put on Main net uh but eventually the proof of concept hopefully will become much more uh shorter all right cool awesome yeah I think that was great overview of how you're building and why how what's possible on bitcoin I guess the the other element that I definitely wanted to talk about today is sort of the citria application and and developer

ecosystem you mentioned right you started from building a wallet and actually trying to build applications now seems like you're you're building the infra first but there's there's also the developer and application side can you explain a bit you know what what there how how does it work uh you mentioned evm compatibility in the beginning too so indeed initial phase we like we said uh we were exploring our own ideas to build to direct to this buet and once we discovered we are actually building a rollup our initial idea was let's build I don't know maybe app specific rollup to do some dates for or or to do Landing borrowing all Bitcoin but eventually we we said this infrastructure is extremely hard to

build like the bitv taking a year to have even a proof of concept implementation so if you do multiple specific rollups then we need different brids for all of them uh and we need more developments so we say we already have like a lot of modular pce that's been developed on ethereum and we also like good builders for Bitcoin and ethereum for years and let's just combine them improve them and make them for compat coin uh so that we can enable all the developers to just come and deploy their applications here without going through all the infrastructure challenges and that's why we choose to be fully evm compatible now our test set is Type 2 zkm which means it's fully compatible you don't

have to change anything or any test you just deploy the same contracts from AAL main chain to here and they just work um the only changing thing is the block structure like the gas limit which doesn't affect the applications uh so that's why we choose to be type 2 ZK VM uh because we we want the finance world to be run on bitcoin uh Bitcoin is the most ENT blockchain and it's most secure blockchain that's been running more than 15 years and it's the most censorship resistant chain today so what we want is actually and also it has a very precious asset called BTC uh which is a sound money and proberbly the best performing asset so

far I that I I encountered and but the main problem with Bitcoin was if you want to use that precious asset in finance you have to trust someone right on main chain you can only do payments and it's also a bit conjested sometimes so you cannot even do payments so most people did was just deposit their BC to some custodian and then land USD there and use some Dex to do not Dex but use some exchange to do some swaps uh but this is against the whole point of Bitcoin uh the Satoshi in the white paper uh said that the payments without going through a financial institution uh but the Bitcoin eventually evolved to something that people are using BTC the

assets but not the Bitcoin blockchain or not any blockchain that will have Nal properties so it's I think a bit diverg from the main vision of Bitcoin and what we try to do is enable developers to build actually non-custodial and Trust minimize applications so that none of these people has to go financial and custodial infrastructure providers to use their Bitcoin they should be able to just move their BTC here hold their own keys and do anything they want and even we can make the ux better we have now Account structureal Support we have now let's say uh we can just use the secure Enclave on the mobile phone to sign transactions we don't have to carry any

more Hardware buets we don't have to worry about the let's say inheritance be because we can just design a world smart contract uh but it is not possible to do on bitcoin L1 today so that's why we just want to like build the infrastructure to make ux better make Nal work on bitcoin and then we leave rest to the developers to actually build the final applications to the end users so that we can uh actually achieve the final Bitcoin Vision right right and uh I guess it also relies a lot on what is already there like you said the evm space and uh what was built there just sort of settling on bitcoin how do you see citria then interacting kind of with

other evm or like this this ecosystem sort of outside of Bitcoin both from the side of like you know like as a roll out but also in terms of like the developer ecosystem and and attracting these developers from a technical perspective uh one can also like get the Citra approves inscribed from Bitcoin and then verify them on ethereum or some other chain and to actually build a trust minimized bridge between Citra and etherum so it's it's also very easy to do and our infrastructure allows that but there are more practical interoperability solutions that can be used today hyperlane recently deployed on our test net where you can configure your security model and run just the message passing so that you can build token

breeds you can build other things but eventually we believe people would want to move cbtc from Citra to other chains too uh but in the long run we expect all of them to come here F we solve everything about the infrastructure like making it fully scalable making it cheap and reliable uh but until then we also expect some other ecosystems would want to have that Bitcoin to their ecosystem uh so they can build any interoperable solution they want for the uh for the developers uh we recently launched CRA Origins uh which is our like oneof a kind incubator program that we support developers from the product ideation the road map the actual engineering and then

branding growth go to market fundraising everything a crypto startup at Bitcoin startup will need just provide everything to them uh this is a part of our like latest funding grounds uh that's like May one of the main purposes that we do that funding ground is to actually have enough human pover insight to support multiple Bitcoin applications to go to market uh and those applications will just be evm based and this means you can also build like applications on craa but you can also deploy your own rollups on craa just like l2s on you can to deploy alteries on craa and then you can customize your infrastructure you can choose different VM you can choose different ta layers uh if your application requires the say

millisecond confirmations you can also build that on craa by deploying another chain on top of citrea uh so it's just like the endless possibilities uh but using BTC as a native token and getting the full Bitcoin security to those applications and the C J urgence is just a tool for us to get those developers and help them to build their Vision uh just supporting them from zero to 100 uh and then just gifting a Bitcoin app to the Bitcoin SP right right right so like one of the main things is also that BTC is the like gas token on the L2 C right and yeah okay and you mentioned cbtc I guess

that's on your change just BTC just the naming of BTC yeah we just wanted to make it easier for people to understand because especially like in exchange it's just a mess like you want to withdraw BTC to some other chain and you get some random ref BTC that you don't know the name of uh that's why we just keep cbtc Citra BTC uh but it is one to one p to BTC uh so there's no Fue change and there's no reping given yeah yeah yeah yeah okay okay I guess I get it okay I I guess it's interesting because also on ethereum or like the btcs that go around right now like yeah a lot of them are custodial like like you mentioned

earlier so fully custodial every like uh yeah so if people want to use that in let's say I don't know reaking or uh lending borrowing right or defi in general right now there's not like super great not consia Solutions I guess cbtc could be one of those exactly like obvious trustless for like lenders and borrowers right instead of like excluding the orle risk and if you use wbtc on Al it is the same as using binance lending application or whatever because you still have trusting like fully trusting bitco to not rug your collateral uh so it's fundamentally different than what we building we we want to achieve both we want to have my

custodial BTC as asset and we want to have Bitcoin secured applications which can be fully trusted and decentralized right yeah yeah awesome cool I guess yeah that's basic be like maybe today's like sort of final let's say part of the interview or like podcast where we like sort of um maybe can talk about guess Bitcoin defi in general or also like you know what I'm sort of interested in is is there anything you see that's like kind of unique to bitcoin coming in that world or is it more just that Bitcoin is just a better form of collateral given like its history and and and all these elements of it so Bitcoin is definitely the better form of

cultural and the better form of money as a policy I will say um and let's start with the Bitcoin blockchain uh it's a very special blockchain still running proof of work with the biggest hash rates and has a really big market and like I said it's the most censorship is of blockchain today it's not great we still have minor centralization but it's still better than a lot of other chains who produce blocks with like of a compant uh blocks let's say uh so fully compliant blocks are very popular in some other blockchains but not on bitcoin uh so in here uh with rollups actually what what's Beau is the rollups end game is to also enable Force inclusion of transactions from the base

data right so the rollups are uh let's say simply makes the safety fully inherited but they sometimes lack the liveness so that there's single sequencer even though there's multiple sequencer it's not the same as the Bitcoin network uh but that we can enable forc inclusions so that people can't send their transaction to bitcoin and those transactions will be run on craa uh it has to be run on citrea basically so this the whole point of force transactions on rollups and as the Bitcoin is the most sensorship resistant layer now for the important Financial activities on craa bitcoin is the best base there because you can just send your transaction and it will get mined maybe 90% sure and then those

transactions has to be executed on craa uh that's why I think it's important to build a proof of work can censorship resistant layer like Bitcoin uh now the second aspect is obviously BTC as asset uh compared to the other uh currencies uh Bitcoin has the best product Market fit for payments right it's still like it's still not great I think most people prefer to get like usdc or usdt because they gets more stable but but compared to let's say e BTC is widely used in payments but e is not and there are still lot of good good improvements done on the ethereum scalability side which enables very cheap payments but no one is using them because they don't want to

use it as payment tool and but what we can do is simply just get all this infrastructure run on craa and use Bitcoin as the payment token inside that payments uh scalability Solutions basically so the payments are one of the my main like thing that I want to see that that should it should be better than lightning and with evm like just just sitra you can build everything without channels like the ZK verification if you want if you want do CLI side verification you can do that so it should be better than lightning and the second thing is obviously privacy where there's no today privacy on the ter uh Bitcoin L1 uh and it's because you you don't have enough op codes to

build let's say pools or whatever but you can build a very good privacy tools on craa we we know like rail gun from ethereum uh we worked with them maybe in the past also uh but it's it's a great Tool uh to beheld on bitcoin and the third thing is the landing borrowing because Bitcoin is uh actually like should be widely used uh as a cultural and we just need to enable it to do n and trustless uh by basically having a lending app runos so this will be my maybe prioritize uh for uh Bitcoin applications right right right yeah makes sense okay very interesting and so yeah I guess the

the core of it comes down to like sort of the the proof of work and and the history of of Bitcoin which which I guess that's always a core argument is there or like how do you see it then evolving I guess you know we all know like block reward is going down but basically like the rollups would counteract because they create like these proof transactions how much is that or like could you see that becoming like sort of the main source of fees for for Bitcoin itself at some point yeah so Bitcoin issues like you said is every four years it's just go Sol and eventually it will converge to zero and at that point Bitcoin miners incentive

is transaction fees and if no one is actually using Bitcoin blockchain but if everyone uses BTC ass set in let's say custo deal applications then Bitcoin miners won't get any feeds and Bitcoin blockchain will become much less secure than today uh so with rollups rollups are using the L1 as a DA layer so we post our data to Bitcoin in the form of ZK proofs and state diffs which is a bit more optimized form of just sending pure transaction data and we compress them send them to bitcoin so we do two things at the same time we achieve uh the Bitcoin level security because the data is there and we also pay miners uh to be incentivized to keep the HH rate high

and get more fees and just continue the chain without reducing its security uh so we do these two things which is extremely helpful to bitcoin and at the same time we do transaction cooperation with CK proofs so it is not as expensive as doing a transaction on the L1 it is much more cheaper but collectively it helps Bitcoin uh to be sustainable and also to be scalable so yeah that's the main problem with all the proof of for chains and I don't think uh bit other than like something other than Bitcoin will survive in the long run and if Bitcoin needs to survive people need to use Bitcoin and maybe just in a form of single transactions or rollups basically send all the data uh to bitcoin right do have you done like

some sort of simulation for how much citria would pay on like Bitcoin mayet for like some operation does it depend on like the load on citria also exactly because it's state diffs it depends on like uh how like if if we are all using the same Unis web pool the state def will be extremely small but if we are using all different Unis pools uh the size will be huge uh but we did some statistical analysis using like some past blocks on user behavior and created an analytic and today I think in our test net uh this is the like real numbers on testnet but the Fe rate is exactly mirrored to to our rollup and right now the data size of doing a

Bitcoin transfer on sitr is 15 times smaller than doing it on bitcoin main net so even though F rat change you can expect that we redu just the same transaction 15 times uh than the main net and this is maybe like somewhat same for other things but we cannot understand because there's no Dex on bitcoin we don't know the cost of Dex on bitcoin uh but it should be maybe like somewhere around between ethereum and etherum rups not as cheap as etherum rups for sure uh but not as expensive as I tell you also so maybe somewhere in between we can estimate the transaction cost but there's no uh strict numbers for it interesting so right now it would be I guess like an order of magnitude

lower maybe and like what what does that mean like what what would like a normal scent on citria cost in this 15x uh lower I guess as we record here 31st October yeah I think like today's uh on like the main fees are somewhere around like 10 sets or something like that so so a Bitcoin transfer should definitely below $1 to do craa maybe even around like below 10 cents but no matter the fee rate it will be 15 times cheaper if you do that transaction today because we just reflect the same fee rate of Bitcoin to Citra because we just send all the transactions there we need to keep the rates uh the same but we just compress the transaction and I guess in

the that's with the current Arch chitecture could like further compress more if there's like more improvements to BVM ZK exactly the ZK improvements are the main thing and the second thing is we are now also changing the architecture to embed State full State diffs uh which means that let's say if you do a transaction your compressed address is written to bitcoin and if you do a second transaction we we no longer use your address we just use your index to put so we reduce the data size a lot and that's still work in progress not like on testet but yeah in the long run the IDE is the care proof systems will be much more uh faster so that we can do more uh let's say proofs per time and we can compress more and with stateful

State this we will achieve optimal compression as well awesome okay very cool yeah um maybe one one final like sort of question before we slowly like R up is I guess you're you're all the team you mentioned you were from Istanbul in Turkey you want to share a bit like how I guess that's that's a big Community that's emerging there how how and also it has like interest in Bitcoin from from sort of like inflationary perspective so yeah maybe you can share a bit how how that's going how you're how you're growing that or like your thoughts there yeah so like I said all my co-founders and are are based in Stan actually like I I say majority of our

team is also in stul we have an office there uh but yeah that's how we grw up like my maybe like since high school all I saw was inflation Turkish are going to zero against dollar and other currencies especially against Bitcoin too uh just Bitcoin does alltime high maybe every day in Turkey right uh no matter the USD price because either USD goes up or Bitcoin goes up um for Turkish but yeah that's also like how I got into crypto uh that I was getting scholarship through crypto because it's a much more fear form of doing money transfers and it's also resistant against the inflation uh this was 2018 or 19 I think

and yeah that's that's how we got into but in the turkey there are like some developer groups that's still like getting bigger and bigger uh we definitely like help them uh with their products if they have ideas we want to support them uh we do for a couple I think we will announce more in the coming days uh but let's like I said we are just supporting all the Lo Builders and at the same time there's this retail user base which mainly holds I would say usdt not Bitcoin uh because it's still more volatile compared to the usct for Turkish uh persons um but the the main thing is also they don't know how to use the self custodial tools so they use the most basic thing which is binance and

they just use USD on binance or usdc whatever uh so that they can just cheaply send it around or just convert to the cash uh but I think Market on Turkey is really big especially if you can onboard them to bitcoin uh because it's better than USD for monetary policy uh and if we can make also like sending receiving Bitcoin and holding Bitcoin easier then I don't see any reason to like just D St uh usdt right right yeah that's that's just super interesting how big the adoption in that sens and maybe the step towards going full noncustodial is actually much shorter than what it is in like the Western World yep for sure cool I think yeah covered a lot of ground and yeah

congrats on the fud race I guess you'll this might go out shortly after is there any yeah any final things you want to share with our audience or where to learn more about sta how to build exactly thank you for having me I think we covered a lot of like Technical and non-technical stuff for technical stuff they can always F our GitHub which is open source uh our repos story is and our documentation our web page is ca. XYZ and the Twitter is craa XYZ so that you can see all the resources there but yeah other than that if you're a builder and developer and want to be a part of this Citra Origins incubation program it just hit us up there's form on the web page as well we just do one orone meetings with all the builders that's

applying yeah in general what we want to achieve is the end goal of Bitcoin what I I imagine is the hyperbitcoinization where all the other currencies getting hyperinflated and the Bitcoin at the same time getting adapted the hyperinflation is happening on other countries like Argentina like turkey like Zab uh but the hyper Bitcoin resoltion is also slowly coming we just need the enough infrastructure to actually achieve scalable and Trust minimize and notal applications and then once we see the creative applications the adoption will be much more higher potentially bigger than probably bigger than all the crypto and potentially big than the web to as well in the long run so if you're a

builder just like I said just hit me up or apply from the form and I think that's all awesome sounds great thanks every thanks for coming on and yeah great to see you thank you Felix thank for having me