CEX vs. DEX and DeFi Panel

Transcript

[Applause] [Music] kick this off i would love if all these fabulous panelists would introduce themselves and also share a few a few words about the company they work for should we start with diana and uh and then natan marcel and gaspar so i'm diana biggs i'm ceo of valor valor is an issuer of digital asset exchange traded products we went live with our first product last december with a focus on the nordics now also in germany

and currently we're just under 300 million usd in aum we were actually acquired in april by defy technologies which is a public company based in canada with a build by strategy supporting the defy ecosystem broadly through venture investments and through a build and buy strategy where we're looking to give public market investors access to the dfi ecosystem so i'll actually be moving into the chief strategy officer role there imminently with some exciting announcements to come on valor next week thank you very much natan we are all excited to learn more about you well my name is nathan kaiser and i am

the general counsel of sdx sdx is a subsidiary of swiss stock exchange the sixth group and uh just a couple weeks ago we got our license as the first in switzerland the first regulated uh dlt-based stock exchange that's a lot of words and everyone matters but uh yeah so we're gonna go live life after the license very short uh in a couple in less weeks than my my hand has fingers and uh we'll take it from there yeah thank you very much awesome my name is martha harman i'm a board member of the crypto valley association pleasure to be here today i'm also a co-founder of d5 swiss age just recently launched its first product

called the tor wallet it's a d5 cross chain d5 wallet basically as the name suggests it's a wallet non-custodial so you always have uh the keys to your coins but it has also all the functionalities of d5 saying where especially cross chain d5 meaning you can swap layer 1 assets native bitcoin against native ethereum in a decentralized way liquidity pooling landing and borrowing all the fancy stuff that defy can bring we bring to you right out of the wallet thanks so much uh gaspar please go ahead

and yeah i'm guest papillozi i'm the ceo of ap wine which is a decentralized finance protocol working on building derivatives on yield we launched august of last year and did several beta version and mainnet and yeah so we started with the invention of this concept of futures again which is basically somewhat an advanced paycheck for liquidity providers but which is also at the same time a futurisco contract to to trade yield that is yet unrealized yeah so we are a team of 10 people now we raised some money and we continue to build more directives on yield alongside with a dedicated automated market maker

which is designed to be the most efficient for liquidity providers for that types of assets thank you very much it's an ex inspiring uh it has been inspiring watching your journey gaspard because uh we know each other from uh the western chapter of the crypto valley and i remember when you were presenting the plan of ap wine and now you guys are a team of ten which is which is really cool so we see that a lot of centralized exchanges are also exploring various taxes for instance ftx is invested in solana binance has a binance chain and i'm curious like what is your take deanna why why do they do this why why

is this interesting for them why are centralized exchanges investing in taxes yeah well i think it's all part of the evolution of the space if we look at the founders that created the first centralized exchanges these are individuals and and teams that were looking to broaden access to the crypto space overall and that was the the first iteration the the one that that made sense and how things were being built at that time um and and so these companies wore because of the nature of the technology and the stage we were at and how like sort of the overall development of the ecosystem goes um building companies that were centralized and then that was sort of

the the form and how you did it then um and obviously they're beginning to to understand now and then you know we see in the news the challenges that can be associated with that um predominantly regulatory wise and some of the crackdowns that are happening at the same time they're seeing the enormous growth that's happening in the decentralized finance space and how we've evolved and what's possible with that technology and what can be built and i mean these these are people who who are builders who share that same vision and who are looking to to promote access to it so i think it's only natural that they would want to be part of that next evolution and phase of development in whatever form and an investment and

um supporting the growth of these decks is completely uh makes sense thank you very much marcel do you have something to add to this or um yeah absolutely i think it makes a lot of sense uh strategy wise first of all if you have some money to spare economically it just makes a lot of sense to invest in taxes because they're like hot assets um also if you look at like cannibalization of your own clients it's maybe some overlap but not really happening because they're kind of different use cases so it's fine as well if they do it and then also a long shot i think it's it's kind of a very smart regulatory

hatch so if the centralized exchanges get over regulated and the regulators overdo it they still have the technology ready to just go decentralized so yeah i would do the same yeah this that is really much into my next question which is which is addressed to you natan that uh do regulators represent a threat to centralized exchanges um so this is why they engage part of their resources in decentralized uh venues um yeah just especially with some exchanges not being hundred percent regulated how do you see this uh from the sdx perspective or well maybe just first from the uh

is decentralized exchanges uh a threat to the regulator or vice versa and all i think it's actually the first one because you were asking if the regulator is a threat maybe it's the other way around i think what's what's happening in a larger picture is what's what's now called web three and uh and i think that one is is gonna come and so that that new tendency for new decentralization decentralization is going to come and and in my personal view it's probably that the regulators are trying to capture uh what's the web 3 or what it is now is very little it kind of works it used to not work now it works but it will work much better in the future

and it's probably going to be the other way around it's going to be that decentralized extension something that can't be stopped and i think a very simple but not the totally wrong analogy will be the the voice over ip with regard to the old telecom industry and i i th i think it largely works but happy to discuss that yeah because it was something that people tried to stop but it was just in the end unstoppable so i don't think the regulators are a threat to web3 no so you're saying that it used to not work like what are you exactly referring to well i mean i'm not sure i follow just right we started talk about decentralized exchanges maybe i don't know i started to hear it three years ago i don't know

if it was a talk before and it sort of was very hard to use in the very initial uh attempts but now we all know it's it's literally billions that are are being traded on these exchange decentralized exchanges so it's no longer a question of an mvp we're way beyond mvp you know it's uh and it took a while but it only took a very few years now and now we're already there so if you extrapolate that into the future it's going to be really happening very fast thank you very much because we have 55 minutes on this panel and we are 10 minutes into it i would like to encourage the audience to

to participate and let's make it more conversational so if we have a question now or or later then please raise your hand otherwise i i have a question uh i have multiple questions [Laughter] i don't see any hands oh there's one can you shout out i'm going to repeat the question so that

everyone is hearing um basically the question was that decentralized exchanges how are they going to kyc how will they allow participation of institutions but also individuals in in the wider world of of participating in taxes what is the solution because for instance there's ave arc which uh which you guys know of i'm sure many here in the audience know of so what what is the solution andrew is a colleague of mine at sdx i'm not gonna answer all right but i have lots of things to say but maybe yeah i think this is yours no or yeah sure i'm happy to start hand over um well i would say blockchain technology

and and then defy as a derivative of it there it's it's like on a different poll than regulation or mlkyc like their opposite and like they made to resist it um so it's it's actually going to be quite difficult but maybe the solution can be actually then really simple how to find an answer how to to combine the aml kyc and regular regulatory stuff for the future right now i think it's just very important that they don't overdo it so they don't basically stop the development of it i mean

if they can somehow stop it i'm happy you said that it's better that you say it that i say yeah i think maybe just from my or from sdx points of view obviously we we kind of would have to make one bracket and make a difference between cryptocurrencies which are or should not be or are not deemed securities that's one world that's what we're talking about right now and then securities or effects which is a different world which is where we are playing sdx so it's really two very separate worlds also in a regulatory perspective and i think to your question with regard to securities kyc is here to stay for a long while and

it's easier to deal with but i i fully agree with you when it's outside of the securities realm and we're back to real cryptocurrencies the truth is there there is no need or space for for aml it's just it's not built for it's it's built not for it so yeah let's just all keep going and slowly and not overdoing it i'm i'm very much with you yeah deanna what do you have to add yeah i think what i would just say to that is that a lot of these these regulations the the there's important reasons that they're in place and and there's reasons that they are a key part of the backbone of the financial services uh industry i mean we we do want to prevent

terrorist financing and and money laundering and and the other things that that can happen as a result of course we also are i think things that that are important for the future going forward and that are certainly a key with the possibility of what these new technologies can present is privacy preserving methods which will still ensure the the safety of consumers on one hand the prevention of illicit activities that that we don't want to be happening and so it's about striking the right balance and i think what's incredibly exciting is that there are like with this these new technologies with decentralized finance

we're actually enabling a lot of important transparency and interoperability and access that wasn't possible or that is very difficult within the traditional models but we can also take the important learnings from those traditional models and some some rules and aspects that that need to be there and are there for good reason and develop and adapt those with the help of these new technologies to actually ensure that these worlds can be built in a way that that is safe while also enabling this additional access and preventing some of these inefficiencies and i mean i think a lot of people have one of the reasons that i got in full time into the crypto space was trying to working across sub-saharan

africa and trying to do financial transactions and that was all in the name of financial inclusion but then you know in certain um like for cross-border transactions and other things there's and for individuals who might not have identity documents there's a lot of complexity there but that's what makes this space um so incredibly exciting but we can certainly do that in a safe way and there's a lot of opportunity for that i think it's incredibly interesting to see projects like ave already experimenting with how can this be done in a permissioned way with kyc for institutions that require it like these institutionals we definitely want those capital flows to be coming into the space um and ultimately there is ways to do that

i mean i think zero knowledge proofs are one of the most interesting areas of development that has have come out and really come to light around blockchain and that we can allow for solutions that will preserve privacy of individuals but allow for the necessary measures that we need to to ensure that things are being done in a safe way so then how can banks interact with defy beyond avi i mean for instance valor um you guys issue are issuing etps of uni or solana which are giving some sort of exposure to d5 but then beyond these two examples like

how do can you guys think of other examples how bank can banks can interact with dfi well certainly from and again i i'll let the other speak in a minute but certainly from our perspective what we see is that d5 ultimately will become the infrastructure of financial services so it won't be two parallel systems but similar to to what we've seen in sort of traditional financial services overall and i started encrypted back in 2013 but then um from between 2017 and 2020 was working with with hsbc so a traditional finance institution where they were looking and the role of head of innovation was to partner with

fintechs and we saw that same narrative happen where initially you had this narrative of oh the fintechs are going to disrupt the banks and take over and eventually that involve evolved into one of collaboration and i really see that happening here and and believe that ultimately what will happen is that it is about um collaboration and this decentralization forming the layers this sort of like the attempts or the first steps um seeing this try to happen was maybe you could look at open banking as one example where i don't know if people here have heard of open banking but certainly in the uk it was about you know the large banks opening their apis and data to to fintechs

and doing that in a way which would allow more consumer choice and more interoperability through certain so certain different aspects of providers and sort of this marketplace model canada hong kong australia a lot of other geographies were all looking towards this but of course when you're trying to build an open system on top of what is inherently closed and siloed systems there's there's a lot of issues with that and it's just completely inefficient and didn't really pick up the consumer attraction that anyone was hoping for and i think that one of the things that's most exciting about d5 is that here we actually have that potential because here we have things that are natively open um and a financial services system that is built on a natively inherently open

transparent accessible infrastructure is what we were all hoping for and here that can actually be allowed and i think that you know the the banks whether it is through by force or something like having the open banking system and then the regulator telling you you have to open up your data or whether it's by choice and we are seeing some financial institutions that are even opening up new uni new new units now that are specifically just exploring how can they start to interact with with nephi that that you will see like that that convergence and the the building on top of what's being created now thanks so much for elaborating in in more detail here uh we're gonna take

another question uh i i see in this gentleman and then we spare your question for later please speak up um [Laughter]

hearing some of what you said and i was thinking oh this is maybe something we should discuss over a bottle of beer or a glass of wine in in my personal opinion and that's something to be discussed it is simply two different things no so so you have a taxation system which makes sense and has its own uh legitimacy and then you have a an authority that is responsible for enforcing this and this is one thing and they'll try to do what they'll need to do to enforce it and then you have private business which can go in cash or you can you know exchange apples against a car or a car against another car and whether that's now easily traceable for the tax authorities is probably not

the first consideration or maybe should not be a consideration at all so it is two different worlds and there is a bit of an antagonism fair enough now between doing business and then the tax authorities also relying on yourself declaring taxes no and then if you don't declare taxes then you will be called or not there's a whistleblower or your ex-wife or your ex-spouse or whatever it could be anything you know but i think i wouldn't link defy to tax or i wouldn't also link d5 to tax evasion because this taxation and then there's d5 that's how i see but please yeah diana want to say something no no i don't see why it's different

than any anything else yeah i mean you you report your taxes there's a lot of ways that you could be making income that isn't seen right um whether like different tax regimes around the world as someone with multiple passwords that's like a whole other conversation as you say around which ones are better which ones are worse uh but we're in switzerland so that's fantastic that's uh good not just the mountains and the lakes but other other aspects uh are to it that is good in switzerland we will get to that as well um again uh but uh nathan you mentioned the billions or as in when it comes to trading volume and d5 we've seen a massive increase since last summer and and a new

new records have been have been hit uh when it comes to volume how you seen the volume increase the past quarters um gaspard and marcel or marcel gaspar take it uh the in order you prefer and also what what do you like if we look ahead what do you guys think um i think one key kpi that has been constantly evolving through the past few years like the one thing that we changed on the slide is um the total value locked in defined we crossed like 100 billion recently and but that's not the most relevant one and i definitely think that moving forward with the d5 protocols we had some decentralized exchange that really changed the game with automatic

market maker for example that created really permission-less exchanges and now on top of that you have like new types of tools derivatives huge project that i've been building on a very complex exchange for years for example the uidx and so on and so forth and i think now it becomes more and more usable i think the scalability issue that has been like an issue for since the beginning is something that starts to actually being solved and in some ways as well so i think for the end user it starts to be way more easy to leverage defy and that's one thing and the other is that now the more you use defy the more you use actually tools that are built on top of tools and that are also built on top of tools and i think like that's the

finances built and so the volumes are raising quickly and the way the protocols are using this liquidity and the volume is quite more efficient as well and that's very important because um from the last topic that was you know maybe in the regulation side sometimes there is like centralization versus decentralization and it's that much it's not just not no sorry not much battle against you know centralized against decentralization eventually defy what's wants to do defy is more some kind of arbitrage so if you want to make a profitable arbitrage and what is the market currently then you need to build profitable path and i think that's what we've what is currently being built uh with

huge protocol like have that now have the the manpower to to to not fight the regulator but uh work with them and create huge bridges that that will um make you like increase the flows of liquidity and directly defy and so i think that's that's where we at um just it's just much more usable and there are much more uh liquidity and that's like some kind of uh network effect that is really perfectly um being profitable for the d5 ecosystem at the moment um thank you yeah i think and another very simple way to look at the fast growth that d5 has is just the trading volume like daily or monthly

and um this is pretty much exploding right now we are somewhere between eight to ten billion uh transaction volume per day combined all taxes combined with with uni swap taking the majority of it but if you calculate that for a month it's like 300 billion a month trading volume somewhere around those numbers now and a year before 12 months we were maybe at 50 billion so it's like six times uh and if if they keep on banning crypto it's just growing faster yeah so exciting to see to see that um do you still have your question um so i will repeat the question uh let me

know if this is clear for you the gentleman is referring to um d5 1.0 and then they fight 2.2.0 or 2.0 if you will so what what is the difference to you i don't know if there is a universal differentiation to this if if i've seen jerome that is here uh coming in so if he has an answer to that but um i i'm not sure that this differentiation was dismayed so universally yeah generally i would just say it's it's very modular and as as you just explained like protocols are building on top of

each other now um growing and relying on each other um this will continue and then maybe it evolves into what and diana was mentioning that in the end you don't have two parallel systems but d5 will be the system that we use and it's just a morphosis like a fluid change from from one into the other um with continuous improvements that's how i would see it i would like to related because different countries have different laws but in switzerland i heard that you guys don't have any you know kind of you know that when

you change you know the token to the field money so there's no taxi do you want to take this or should we stick to the decentralized centralized exchanges topic um this is again that's why i say taxation is a separate thing you know yeah yeah it's not a taxpayer very happy too so i think this is something where you can guys discuss that the brs as you uh

mentioned so nathan when we had her prep call you said that different different target audiences require different regulation or different solutions retail versus institutional what's the demand for d5 among your your clientele and sdx clients like what's their hunger appetite towards defy and do you believe that regulators will try to regulate taxes um even further than what is the plan now so but yeah i'm super curious what what the typical sdx client wants right i think maybe that question also

leads leads me back to the to the previous question which we could probably expand upon which is this um [Music] defense space with the various chains and protocols and then the traditional finance system and then how are they linked i think it's a it's uh kind of goes into each other so so what we do at sdx is is clearly what we today do at sdx is clearly very different from what we're actually talking about again because we do security so what's a security that's a bond or a stock i think for for easy explanation so if you buy a bond or if you buy your stock that's a security that's what we do and that's definitely not what you guys

do but yeah that's what you do but not what more well and then there's the overlaps and then it gets really interesting but let's let's okay that's why we're here no yeah and then there's slimtastics and others and rappers of all kinds and yeah so in the security space it's much more regulated what we do at sdx is we cater to the banks so what we are is the really the very lowest level piping infrastructure levels so it's called capital market infrastructure and that's what we do so the banks want to provide stocks and bonds to their clients so that's you

and then we do the piping so that the bank a with uh with peter can sell peter stock to the bank p with uh with mary you know american buy peter stock and we do the underlying transaction or or infrastructure layer and then yeah so we're not without not doing non-securities we don't today do cryptocurrencies um but we're looking at it obviously every day from 8 a.m to 2 to 6 p.m or later and and then the question is how does that relate how does what would sdx do or what will maybe sdx do in the future in with regard to cryptocurrencies we're not gonna go into d5 just now so you're

all cool um but what we're looking at is again doing the same thing we don't want to compete with banks we want to provide a service later to the banks so we're looking at the possibility of providing cryptocurrency infrastructure to the banks and what does that mean custody trading settlement that's what we do yeah so and then we look at far we see the the taxes now it's like oh a lot going on in the cryptocurrency space so let's let's see how it goes yeah yeah thank you so and so there is an appetite uh definitely and and um you're exploring that and we're absolutely seeing that as well i mean what our valor's products essentially

are a bridge between traditional finance mainstream investment channels and and digital assets so making digital assets and increasingly with a focus on d5 ecosystems accessible to investors through mainstream investment channels and there are there is we're seeing a lot of appetite both on the retail side and the institutional side and there's there's different reasons why people would choose to gain their exposure to these digital assets through these types of vehicles being traded on traditional stock exchanges but certainly with the types of products that we're building we're actually providing exposure at the closest to to fair value of any product

on the market particularly given given our low fees or for our bitcoin and ethereum products zero fees and because of the nature of these atps unlike a fund product the cost of the actual trading isn't passed on to to the consumer um or the investor who's purchasing those um so there's a lot of advantages there and then with the ability to gain exposure to these uh through your bank or broker as a traditional product there's also the possibility for tax advantages depending on the tax-free savings accounts in your country just mentioning that giving me the interest and tax here today

um so so that is another fantastic thing about these products as well and the appetite is definitely there yesterday we launched the world's first uniswap etp um and then we're just seeing an increasing amount of demand from investors similar with our recently launched celana products to be able to to gain access to to those defy assets through through their banks or brokers club club club very nice the world or the word interoperability mentioned and i'm curious uh this is more addressed uh to you guys here closer to me uh marcel and gospel that that what's your take when it comes to

interoperability uh for decentralized trades between layer one assets um you can allude to that yeah so probably most here know that like uni swap as example has the biggest decentralized exchange it's all based on ethereum so if you actually want to trade bitcoin you need to wrap it wrapping is okay for the time being but it's not so cool because it's a risk right so in the end you want to swap layer one tokens fully decentralized and like it's just it needs to happen eventually there are not many players around um tour chain or tour wallet we we can do it at the moment there are some

other um projects working on that and well basically i think it's a it's one key pillar for the defy space to to give the people that freedom to exchange tokens natively with each other so that interoperability is super important and it just needs the technology the development needs to continue and and it's just a matter of time basically thank you i would add so currently the defy ecosystem and the the current plan i guess for everyone is just to deploy everywhere that there is liquidity because because you need that to exist and also you don't want someone else to take your place in another side

chain or in another chain um but that's like step one and i know that like a lot of big players that are doing that at the moment um first they capture liquidity and and profitability of different chains and then behind the curtains they're working in some kind of interoperability solution so it can be in-house meaning that it will be handled by the protocol but at the same time you have protocol that are focusing just on that issue um and that's a huge challenge um so i have a somewhat different opinion and the rap bitcoin thing um i'm like a big fan of atomic swap for like more

trustless and decentralized solutions um but then tokenizing this kind of asset in one chain or another um of course implies some kind of risk due to the the the the pyramid of card that you're building but at the same time it makes it very usable in terms of liquidity and collateral and it's just like about optimizing how you handle the liquidity the trades everything that happens and i think that's that's working pretty well ish let's say in the device scale where we where we um agreed to use different kind of product with that standard but um yeah so a lot of product building focusing on that issue how to connect chains how to make that very seamless even for developers because um so as a smart controller developers when you

deploy on one chain and then you have to deploy on the other and it means that the user will have to interact like separately on all the chains it's a mess so we need to build bridges that are that will be completely invisible for both the developer and the user and that's something that is being worked on a lot currently yeah that's why at the beginning i said that in order to maximize the benefits of decentralized finance you need to be quite an advanced a trader um alison please what's the questions i just recently read a critique that

said actually having a buffer of t plus two days is a good thing because you avoid a lot of systemic risk my question for the panel is instant atomic exchange i'm happy to repeat the question so that everyone in the room hears it so alison is asking if insta instant settlement is is really a true benefit or a true advantage when we uh when blockchains communicate with each other or when we use a blockchain as underlying technology or the one or two days is actually better i would say yes um yes it's the goal as long as it is stressless and

like that that's the that is the thing that is being uh brought to the customer like we can do that instantly because he's stressless so we don't need to wait for someone to approve it um but i do agree that making fist making things too fast is not necessarily the best solution and we still need to be sure that we're doing that in a correct way and the more efficient you want to be the more careful you have to be as well to build some some very strong technology that is not just like some compromise elsewhere maybe i can add to that yeah cosplay i think that's exactly the first sentence was the point though if you are in a trustless environment then you'll deal with liquidity and prepayment within the trustless

environment we know how pools work and so somebody needs to pre-fund pre-pay pre-put something in it and that works and then you're okay within that framework trustless for all parties involved no counterparty you're totally fine with t plus zero or atomic settlement but when we now come back with my old security you know in the securities world t plus zero we we've seen that at sdx is actually sounds very good on paper but then you run immediately into pre-funding problems and prepayment problems and then you're like oh wait t plus two is actually kind of cool it works and it's not broken so in a trustless environment people's zero atomic settlement very cool works

because somebody will trustlessly also pre-fund and pre-fill the pools but in securities not so easy yeah yeah we'll see how that and where that goes we actually even at sdx we only know it's a question but we don't know the answer yet yeah just as like operating between both worlds i i definitely see a lot of advantages to having the option of being t0 of doing instant and then having the ability to build your risk mitigations around that rather than being stuck with the inability to change and having to wait for for two days especially when when you

see the option of what you can do without it um and kind of being caught in the middle so i think definitely it's something to strive for but of course bearing in mind all of the potential risks and then building around that possibility in terms of what actually you do need for your risk mitigation and using it where it does make sense without being sort of yeah stuck in without the the choice or having it there when it may not be needed and depending on the instances and having that sort of flexibility and the ability to design with the like the best possible or the most efficient solution as a possibility is is extremely exciting but bearing in mind the risks

thank you very much i i i'm going to take two more questions and then we have 10 more minutes to wrap up this panel so i seen a question there if you want to shout or okay not sure if we all got the question i would love to repeat it but so can you repeat your question and i will i will also market um the other hand the demand for

regulatory reporting that the regulator has in this market do you see their relation or will it not be have any impact the regulatory reporting regulatory risk management okay um so the question is that with the rise of defy and and seeing more and more or higher and higher volumes when it comes to decentralized finance uh the regulators are coming after big bucks big money so is there is there a parallel is there a collaboration between these two if i understood the question correctly imagine no the weird thing in d5 and you guys

know is that first of all there's no not really an entity you know there's maybe a coder who coded the code and deployed the code initially but it's it is the d stands for decentralized it's something that often gets forgotten so there is no entity to be regulated that kind of hampers you know the regulator and then there's no counterparties uh or counterparty risk there's a obvious actually not even a counterparty because it's trustless and and what happens with in with the current regulations is they always think of big entities like the big bad boys that don't behave well and maybe some small maverick

boys and girls that don't behave well and they try to regulate that but here we don't have that and they they always think of counterparty risk in all shades and all that but we don't have counterparty risk so it's just it just doesn't match so that's why i say it's not the regal regulators there's no regulatory reporting requirements on a d5 protocol the way d5 works it's more that maybe the regulators and the legislators will need to think about well what would even make sense no if anything makes sense probably something makes sense then we're back to what diana said we still have some issues that we need to deal with legitimately but how to deal

with it actually we don't really know yeah but the regulators are already thinking about this i mean we know through public we know that they are in discussions with with a lot of the big uh d5 players and that they're actively looking to understand this and just as we saw with with crypto i mean we saw a lot of these same narratives come out you know will regulation destroy crypto and it was just sort of crypto and i think we're actually sitting in a better place now and we have an advantage in that there's already been time for that education which is so important for regulators to start to understand okay what is this technology what what are the possibilities here it's more real now and and so they're

starting to get their heads around it and there is a there are more industry bodies now that are actively engaging with regulators the the protocols and the developers i would say for the most part now know how important it is to start that dialogue we've seen what can happen um so so i think that that that's something that's starting it's obviously we're still in the early stages but it's fantastic to see that kind of um collaboration and dialogue already happening and just uh what comes to my mind is uh from crypto twitter vagmias and wagmi in d5 so we all gonna make it so i want to give you guys the opportunity

as well to ask a question from one another so if you have a pressing question to your fellow panelists then please ask away otherwise i will uh i will arrive to my closing question okay who should it be like let's speak it's hard okay um yeah it's a very active hand movement please shout shout away shout out regulators with legal and economic

backgrounds okay i'm going to repeat the question uh basically the gentleman is asking if um all the regulators who are going to decide of the future of decentralized finance do they have the right knowledge about how blockchains work how how decentralized finance works is is yeah i guess the regulator has to hire

more and more engineers more and more blockchain engineers to understand yeah um yeah i i try to to kick off so i think it's actually super important education is key we are here at the university of applied science concern they're actually offering a certificate of advanced studies in blockchain and one in crypto finance and cryptocurrencies each of them is uh three to four months deep dive course into the matter uh with with all the crypto industry experts uh lecturing and they're now again thanks to the bitcoin course fully booked out all the time uh

it was different in crypto winter but yeah the we we see those people join the course so um yeah that side it's it's actually very important education is key and a lot more needs to be done thank you very much for taking it uh diana is there something you would love to add yeah no absolutely i mean i've been head tutor of the university of oxford side business schools executive education program in blockchain for for some years and lecturing there for several years and absolutely people from from all industries but certainly also regulators are trying to learn and working on it

and i think they absolutely can like yes they're you know it is quite niche now they're the the topics can seem quite esoteric um but certainly you know there's already been years of people who are looking at the these baseline technologies blockchain technology and and starting to learn and focusing on that i mean uh obviously like resourcing is one issue and this is something that we're seeing across every industry everything is turning digital and this is just the world that we're living in now it's very meta and we every single industry is looking towards this i mean

banks any organization everybody's looking at how they can hire and education is as absolutely key from the individuals that will be working in the future in these roles to to the ones that are in them today and and i don't think that that it's be beyond them but of course those institutions like every institution now needs to to have a plan for how they're going to attract the right types of talent um and then also rely on as they do for other topics consultants industry advisors and partners to help them through that and one really fantastic thing about about this space is that the information is all open it's all out there it's

incredibly easy to learn and engage and and get involved and yes while a lot of the topics are difficult we're seeing more and more people that are really just working on translating that into language and documents and and whatnot that that is more accessible because at the end of the day this is about being um open and accessible and and creating a system that's focused on that so definitely want everybody to to be able to dive in and they are so that's fantastic this is so nicely tapping into my last question which is uh the the closing question what shall we all do to enable

or to to allow the fire make defy accessible for the billions the years to come and it's education education education as as you guys said but what else a better user interface please i'm counting on you fantastic if nothing else to add i would love to put my hands together to diana to nasa thank you very much