Building a Decentralized Banking Institution w/ Sam Kazemian (Frax Finance)

Transcript

[Music] thank you hello and welcome back to the strangewater podcast I'm proud to say that we've made it to the 20th episode and we've got something worthy of such a nice round number today's guest is Sam kazemian founder of frax Finance for the uninitiated frax was founded in December 2020 and issues the frax stable coin during last Run's bull phase frax grew to just under 3 billion dollars and even in this sideways Market has maintained a circulating Supply in the high nine

figures though the protocol launched just as a stable coin today it is an incredibly complex organism that offers a wide range of products including the flagship stablecoin an eth staking product a DEX a lending protocol and as will be revealed in this episode a Define native Bond product over the next 80 minutes you are going to hear one of the best conversations I've had all year instead of outlining this discussion here beforehand I'll let this one play out naturally but whether you're looking for a discussion of the evolution of frax V1 to V3

or hearing me tell Sam kazemian if I were you I would just throw away the stablecoin part of your protocol I know you're going to enjoy this episode one more thing before we begin please do not take Financial advice from this or any other podcast ethereum will change the world one day but you can easily lose all of your money between now and then all right time to start the show Sam thank you so much for joining me on the strangewater podcast it's good to be here man so I'm so excited to have you like especially in this moment in like

the the literal like waves that have been created by frax V3 so we'll spend a lot of time talking about that but um I'm a huge believer in layer zero I'm a huge believer in like understanding what brought all of us to the world computer so before we get to anything going on in frax World um can you just like inform me inform the audience of like who are you like who are you before you found crypto I think you're pretty early into Doge and like what helped you understand that this um was not just like a mechanism for buying drugs like this was something worth like dedicating your career to yeah definitely um so I've I've been in crypto since I was a student at UCLA and likes in like 2013 2014 which is a pretty long time ago

um some people call me like Jurassic or like like prehistoric but um I originally just got into it because I thought it was pretty interesting and cool and not because I thought it was profitable or anything because it really wasn't I actually got into mining as just kind of a hobby it wasn't something that was like a huge business or something I was like a hobby I was studying neuroscience and philosophy at UCLA so one thing people might not know about me is I I really like the intersection of like mind and uh computer like cognitive science um bring computer interfaces AI which Now is really interesting but I actually picked my uh majors and uh College because of that interest and I wanted to

either get into like neurology and medicine or uh computer science but I self-taught myself coding and uh that kind of stuff I've never actually taken a formal uh computer science class or I have a computer science degree I taught myself coding and and stuff and so why did you teach yourself coding uh I just like to build stuff like websites and then back then uh actually I had to really figure out kind of the hardware software aspect of mining I had all these GPU Rigs and I had to like uh Jerry rig different like power supply units to different parts of motherboards and I had to teach myself both uh just the hardware stuff and also basically uh back then you actually uh like run your

own like minor cut a minor back then you had to actually configure it to your exact GPU specs and everything um it was just it was just fun and so um after after college I founded my first startup back then was called everopedia it was like a decentralized uh encyclopedia and it was kind of supposed to be like a successor to uh Wikipedia and it was named after everything encyclopedia so everypedia and um we actually raised uh VC funding and there's actually a token called the IQ token that is kind of powering it as you stake it and you can edit and stuff it actually recently uh it's actually doing really well and the the team that runs

in my former colleagues and stuff they rebuilt it on evm software so it's actually it used to be uh not on ethereum blockchain it used to be on EOS actually and so they rebuilt it with uh evm and it's actually rebranded to IQ dot Wiki which is a different uh platform but same ethos it's actually really cool it works uh really well you know you could check it out but then the real time that I started working on frax was in late 2019 um let's uh pause before we get to frax so um one I just wanted to kind of like share with you like what you say that you got into programming just because it was fun like I got into programming because my friend forced me to take

intro to computer science and it was like the first time in my life I ever like looked forward to doing homework so like I totally understand like that ethos that like this wasn't about like something like passionate or huge it was like cool and so um again like I I think we can all answer this in one question here but um what like I remember that time like I had I was somewhat exposed to crypto like what I remember of Dogecoin was like what the [ __ ] just happened that like a Jamaican bobsley sled team is like in the Olympics with a dog on it yeah right and then don't forget the Doge car right that Josh Wise and and the Dodge car I donated to that yeah everything all that stuff man awesome

and so like when I saw that stuff like again I didn't believe in crypto until 2021 like what did you see that Not only was like this is a cool project but also like that like Wikipedia needed to leverage this like what was special that you saw back in 2014 yeah that's a really deep question because so much has changed since 2014 and uh so much actually hasn't and has proven to be true so there's there's two things so so much that has changed let's start with that first back then actually everyone thought like cryptocurrencies these like fixed Supply scarce assets would

actually be used as currency like things would actually be priced in these things so for for a lot of people that have been in the space for a while like you people listening and stuff I think a lot of people remember back when people actually thought you'd go and buy your coffee and it was going to be like 0.001 but yeah and and yeah and even during the Ico era people still thought there's going to be like Dental coin dentist will use this fixed Supply asset or some something and that seems absolutely silly now right and and it just it seems nonsensical but back then even before ethereum and the Ico boom and stuff these these scarce digital coins seem like they'd be currency and actually I I believed it for a while and stuff but

then uh if you remember the very first kind of uh slogan for ethereum was the world computer when when vitalik and them started kind of talking about ethereum uh it it looked a lot different but also again not too different than than what's going on right now it's gone through a little bit of you know uh rebranding and they don't refer to it as like the world computer anymore but I still remember getting like uh all of the original uh ethereum newsletter postings all of the people talking about ethereum back then like colored coin was kind of a big thing um there was actually like what were precursor icos on on like uh on on

counterparty and colored coin and stuff like the original storage Ico I don't know if people even know what storage is anymore but you know like decentralized uh storage which I think file coin kind of tried to uh be the successor of that but um that was on counterparty I don't even know if anyone kind of listening how many people will end up remembering that and um like a lot of this stuff looked different but a lot of it looked still in terms of ethos the same and so this stuff that looks different is that I just don't think cryptocurrencies are going to be used as currencies I think stable coins will and so that's what

changed my world view uh slowly and got me really into uh stable coins I thought the crypto currencies is kind of a misnomer they're good Investments that you you know you can speculate in them you know it's like digital gold and these kinds of things and again Bitcoin wasn't always called digital gold people thought it would be used as a currency and then it got rebranded kind of as as in in people's psyche right in the collective Consciousness as digital gold um I thought that these things would be really cool currencies and you know you can just mine them and and without any Central Authority and stuff and I didn't actually even think that they these things would make you like Rich that's

the thing it was just fun it was just uh something that you could do um it was fun learning how to set up all these things and it it it was a very pure ethos because there wasn't money to make there wasn't like you could like start your own really coin that easily or anything um and and there just wasn't that much like liquidity you could like mine and then there was like two or three exchanges and there was um there were just like multi pools and uh stuff where you could just point your hash power and the the um the mining operator the actual uh entity would pick the most profitable coin for for you to mine for the whole day for the pool and then they would

convert it to bitcoin it was just like fun simple games it was simpler time um and then as my beliefs kind of changed about what the currency is going to be in in the emerging digital economy that's why I got interested in stable coins and that's kind of how I I actually today you know like fast forwarding a little bit I I like to call myself a stablecoin maximalist um it's kind of just a moniker like a meme that I made up myself but it actually kind of encompasses my view of just how I kind of got to where I am in crypto yeah so that's super interesting I think like to distill down what you were saying is that like everpedia um what during the everpedia days like

really it wasn't about like how can we change how knowledge is shared among and create incentives and all this stuff like it was just kind of a fun project that was using this new technology and then through all of these like narrative changes and like things that happened which by the way is like a whole separate podcast on like the power of like calling it The World computer the power of calling it digital gold like all whatever right but like through that process you realize that you were never there because you thought this stuff was money and like as you realize like well it's not actually even money but there is an opportunity to bring money on like that's when you really started to like shift away from

like I'm in this for the fun and then shift into like I'm in this to change the world yeah I think that that's a that's a really good uh point to make and like uh I I say that um you know stable coins are a multi-trillion dollar you know category in in crypto and I I don't just say that because I think a lot of entrepreneurs like to say oh the total addressable Market of my area is like the total observable universe that's like literally every single thing right um and that's kind of what an entrepreneur has to do to kind of like sell their thing but I actually just believe that with for stable coins specifically and it's not because I do it it's actually like exactly like you said I got into it because I thought

about it not the other way around it's not that I I happen to be in stable coin so I just say that they're just this massive uh this massive total addressable market and I just I think that it's as big as essentially the uh treasury Mark traffic treasury market and Bank uh certificate of deposit market like combined which is in the trillions yeah I I think we can just like kind of put the total addressable Market stuff we'll leave that for the VC talk but let's let's talk about like the moment the moment where you realize like I need to build a stable coin and so this must be 2018 2019 I think at that time we have tether we already realized that they might be like the shadiest

[ __ ] in our industry or not I don't think we realized that yet or at least I didn't maybe I wasn't smart enough uh or anything right yeah because there was only tether back then and like maker Dao had had just came out I I actually remember talking to a lot of the the team at um eth Waterloo I believe it was late 20 I want to say 18 or not it's so long ago I barely even remember but I still remember remember reading the purple paper I'm not sure if people even uh remember that honestly I'm kind of sick of different colored papers now I feel like there's a new one every day but so what's the moment like you're in like you believe in everpedia enough that like you're calling yourself a Founder you're gonna build this

whatever and then like what's the moment where you're like oh God I need to build a stable coin yeah well the the main thing what was that I actually thought that stable coins are as important as Bitcoin and ethereum so think about ethereum back then was just blowing up it was on a tear right it was basically like as important of an innovation as Bitcoin itself um I mean arguably it is right still and um I was just thinking okay what else is as important as Bitcoin and ethereum uh I still believe that's why I call myself a bit uh stablecoin maximalist is is that it's stable coins and back then to

take you back to like 20 18 19 and like 20 um the the idea of this kind of algorithmic stablecoin this like perfect incarnation of a of a stable coin this this was pre-terror this was uh pre-basis if you remember the first basis they like they had raised like 130 million or something they never launched it due to regulatory concerns and stuff um but basis was a stable coin that had a a triple token design um a bond token a share token um and and then the stable coin and it was like the share token is Loosely based on the original signer chairs uh white paper which actually the Frac

shares as a as a homage is is named after uh sign or shares the governance token so that you could kind of see The evolutionary lineage right um and so the idea of this perfect being this like kind of Immaculate Conception of this perfect stable coin that's decentralized uh scalable and just is is able to basically live the same as like the Bitcoin ethos totally non-custodial uh but is price stable is what got me to start working on that problem right and back then everyone's idea was still totally like pure people thought well um maker Dao is going to be like that or like basis is going to be like that we

thought you know frax is is the one that's going to be like that when we started working uh on it and so our original view was like what will that Immaculate Conception of a stable coin look like and believe it or not even though it's changed a lot everything has changed the industry's changed uh a huge uh stable coin implosions do huge stable coin growth uh all of this stuff I actually do think uh for real that like frax V E3 something that we're working on and towards is going to be as close as possible to that Immaculate Conception but I obviously no longer think that there's just this perfect kind of form this you know I think

people call it and I started calling it the stable coin trilemma which is kind of taken from vitalik's blockchain scaling trilemma uh I don't think that's totally solvable there's obviously trade-offs but I think the closest thing to uh the Immaculate Conception is kind of uh hopefully what we're going to launch with frax V3 yeah awesome man so can you like help us understand back in 2019 let's say when the idea is coming together like look let's take us all back to 2019 right there's tether dye is just coming together and Sam kazemian is sitting in one corner of the world do Quan is sitting in one quarter of the world um whatever we'll just use YouTube right

and like you could have in that moment done a dokwon-like model that was like incredibly reflexive incredibly um well I don't know dangerous right and like you didn't and like we can talk about the history I'd like it's been over talked about but can you just like help me understand like what was frax in the beginning like what did it mean for like the frax true ethos design and then like how uh you know talking through frax version one and then frax version two like how has that evolved um you know and then we'll we'll talk to you like the next section of this talk will be what are the gaps to get to the the true ideal and how does frax V3 get there but can you take us back to the um

the Genesis and help me understand from your perspective like what is the true ethos of frax yeah the and and that's a very well well asked uh question basically because when again when we tried to design frax V1 our whole point and our whole motivation and was like why isn't there and an algorithmic stablecoin uh and this was again like you said before the Terra implosion uh this is 2019 right this is before Terry even launched this is uh after basis's design was released but they didn't even launch right and the whole premise with frax V1 actually people mistakenly say oh frax is an algorithmic

stable coin and uh therefore it's like a scam or it's not gonna work or whatever it's going to lose Pagan and stuff but our premise was actually the same thing it was that algorithmic stable coins don't work you need collateral but you need it to look like fractional Reserve banking so so the the the the name frax is a portmanteau of fractional algorithmic which uh basically we said uh algorithmic stable coins are basically like uh stable coins without a balance sheet right you don't have Banks without a balance sheet you you don't have that doesn't work right and you you have fractional reserve banks in

traditional Finance every bank is basically fractional Reserve unless it's like a narrow bank and and a lot of countries don't allow that even like the FED doesn't like including ours yeah which is like again it's a discussion for uh another uh podcast but um so we thought okay what's the best of all worlds where you have great Peg performance and you have scalability again that Immaculate Conception of like decentralization uh scalability and and tight pick that's that's the stable coin trilemma if you look at there's like this triangle right and you you get to pick two basically right the the very tight Peg decentralization right like decentralized collateral essentially um or and scalability like the money

supplies elastic so if if there's a lot of money in demand it can expand uh easily and it can contract easily right um we thought that the uh frax V1 was the the answer to that um frax never lost Peg the only time actually ironically that that frax has ever ever lost Peg was like a 48-hour period uh when usdc that just a couple months ago uh lost its Peg due to traditional banking uh crisis the the Silicon Valley you know banking crisis and stuff and I think it's pretty reasonable to say that frax never lost Peg like when you're only backing is usdc and usdc goes down like well you

didn't lose Peg yeah and and so okay so let me get there right so so the the idea with frax was that you basically have hard assets so for us it was usdc and eventually it kind of transitioned to uh curve LP tokens that are like a mixture of usdc and tether and and like you know high grade stable coins or whatever is high grade enough die tether usdc right and um and some algorithmic portion that's basically backed by the governance token fxs right um and and like you said frax never lost spec but the criticism right that the counter thing is well obviously if if it has a bunch of stable assets that are high grade like usdc and

and it can be swapped on chain it has unchain protocol control liquidity it's just backed by usdc or or whatever stable coins it's it's a backing it's essentially a wrapping of a bunch of stable coins and like a variable amount of uh of a volatile token its own token right and what's interesting is first of all uh that's correct that's correct criticism uh frax V1 well taken second of all uh it did work it never lost Peg so uh and but but two um I think our premise was right and fully algorithmic stable coin or predominantly algorithmic one uh like Tara just was never going to work and

this was an assumption we made before Tara right and I think what's what's sad is that I think Tara also realized that that was doomed and they were trying to become more like frax yes exactly they were trying to become like fracks before it was too late but it was too late there's just too much Supply uh backed by basically nothing right um and so so that that was frax V1 okay so so you asked the question so here's tracks if you want frax V2 we designed these smart contracts called Amos which are called algorithmic Market operation contracts which basically code a bunch of smart contracts that do certain kinds

of market operations over and over again just provide liquidity on curve or take it out if the pool is in balanced to keep the peg tight or uh also uh this was actually before maker designed their d3m uh we thought of actually why don't we just mint Frack stable coins directly into safe lending markets like Ave when Ave listed us we had a lending Amo which periodically mints fracts directly into Ave or removes the frax directly from Ave and we were actually like first in in coming up with this and and doing this and then um make her design their d3m die direct deposit module which is the same thing right the maker was like well you could

just mint the stablecoin directly into lending markets because that's all lending markets are they're a bunch of CDP positions right and so um we actually came up with a lot of this stuff and that that worked really well too frax never lost Peg and it was starting to change a little bit um as as you correctly said the V1 narrative was well you're just wrapped usdc and stuff slowly we we were not right like where some of it was backed by over collateralized loans some of it was backed by uh protocol and liquidity which was still wrapped you know usdc and curve LP tokens and we're starting to come up with really kind of Novel and interesting market operations while being one of the highest performant like

pegs Titus pegs to a dollar so that was frax V2 so before we move on to frax V3 like I only because I know we're about to go like let me give you some very specific types of criticism on like what fracks built up into this moment which is like the entire premise is like predicated on like curve is no risk right like that essentially like you can use this like beautiful mechanism to run all of these like interesting things for the frax protocol and not really need to worry about like what happens if this like falls out from under you right and I think that was

like a really really solid assumption for actually probably through today like into the future probably until five days ago but look like the way that things are playing out like and we'll know a lot more by the time this airs next Thursday right but like so yeah for the record this is being filmed on uh August 4th right so like it's I think it it's over 50 not Financial advice that like curve makes it through this like no problems right except for Michael's personal net worth and like just some like big questions about who are the stakeholders in curve and like how aligned are they with the process so anyway I guess like before five days ago and after five days ago like how do you think about like how

much of what you're building with frax is predicated on the um the the other protocols that you're choosing to partner with like for example are you worried that it that when you're minting fracks directly into Ave that is creating a supply that um doesn't live within the the space that you control yeah that and again uh brilliant questions because that is exactly what we think about a lot and so um for frax V3 we're actually simplifying a lot of this stuff and we're trying to essentially find the elegance and simplicity by making it more simple and more robust by making it

not as uh complicated and assets dispersed everywhere because you're totally right that is actually one of the concerns that as more and more places you know uh Amo contracts the algorithmic market operation contracts do different stuff everywhere right if something happens somewhere uh or if there's 30 curve pools right and then a specific subtype of curve pool four of them have issues right and then they're emptied out well that sucks right even though thankfully that didn't happen at all to any of the the fracks uh pools in in the curve exploit um I think it might be better to call it the Viper exploit technically but but um then yeah exactly as you're saying

we're actually um this has been our our road map for a long time time in that uh you know better than everyone right we have fraxland a Frack Swap and we have an expanding essentially ecosystem this this kind of these fracks tentacles so to speak right that kind of go everywhere that are AKA and our control are technically an fxs token holders is control and our the protocol uh control and we don't have to rely on anyone else or any other outside uh security of any other protocol um I I like to call it when I talk to the the team uh the other core devs I

like to call it controlling our own destiny right instead of like hoping that for example Ave or compound lists fracks and has the right collateral factor or like uh they do it on a timely manner or what if they have more risky assets than even we like or what if they don't have enough we just innovate on building the best Lending system the most unique Landing system and tailored to stable coins uh not tailored to General lending tailored to running a stable coin which goes back to my stablecoin maximalist ethos which is uh all of these like these lending markets these amms uh these Bridges we can actually get into all of this if there's time

probably maybe a different episode but they're all different ways of uh uh servicing stable coins and so that's actually my my stablecoin maximalist view and so with frax V3 we're trying to bring that all under one elegant roof and not make it uh extremely complicated we're asking what's the minimum requirement for a stable coin to be this close to that Immaculate Conception of solving as many of the stablecoin trilemma peg tightness uh decentralization and scalability right um so so that that's basically there so for V3 it'll be simpler you got it that the great answer and I'm sorry I keep

like stopping you from moving forward but before I let you go into V3 like the question I have to ask and it it's you can only ask it to frax and again to be clear this is two frax not to Sam kazemian but do the events of the last five days like make you look at the treasury and the Strategic assets that have been acquired by fraxon a different way at all and like specifically I'm thinking about like convex vlcvx curve and vecrv um not act to be honest not a lot differently um I think obviously things will be a little more painful than before they get better but I think you know this and I think a lot of people listening knows

this but uh I personally am kind of a big advocate of the ve token model and that gets a lot of people angry I know there's a lot of people that don't like the ve token model and there's a lot of people that think it means stuff that it doesn't mean so I like I'm not saying I I love every aspect of it but um for example frax was basically the second major token to have VES fxs so one of the things you can the main thing you can actually do with fxs inside of the protocol is stake it as ve fxs which is that system where you pick up to four years and uh you get to vote in governance and and get some of the yield of protocol revenue and Etc um I think that yeah people will be

scared to put stuff back into uh curve and and things will be chaotic for a while but I think the fundamentals are are still there so I I don't feel um I don't feel particularly bad in fact I feel pretty good in in the long term awesome yeah and uh no Aston answered and I think the only pushback I ever have against any ve systems is like put in a rage quit the protocol wins the users win everyone wins but otherwise yeah well I I actually have a question I I'd love to pose to uh the the ve system and I don't mean to derail and just go into like talking about tokenomics but um just maybe for a few minutes like it's all voluntary right and so so like

it's not like you know the way that I think about the ve system is that there's no on-chain way for communities to signal in a trustless manner hey I am aligned with this with this protocol for one month for five months for two years for four years and here's how much money I've put in to be aligned with its growth for four years for two years and and you know you get to pick voluntarily right and and so that's that is an important Market uh ability like again blockchains are about coordination right and there there is no

way for anyone to coordinate other than through some vague ve system like there's there's like the balancer flavor of it you have to kind of stake some eth with the token and then there's the raw ve system like fxs and CRV right and I just feel like you know stuff like uni or or like or like comp or like mkr right um which is you can just hold it spot or you could sell it right um I just I just think that that view the Orthodox view of like the OG D5 protocols where there's this view of like if you need a token for your like project to work your like a project is a Ponzi or a scam or something but L1

blockchains can have a token because they need the token door but that's not a scam but if you build like a a system of smart contracts that have staking and locking and like voluntary coordination then it's a scam or like then your product is not good enough you have to always be giving away free money I think that that's just like I think that's just misguided I'm not saying that there isn't a way to have bad ve tokenomics just like unsustainable stuff I'm not saying like you can't you can't over emit stuff or or anything like that but without the ability of a of a bunch of uh people to coordinate on chain and say I have like a million dollars of this governance

token I'm in it for four years and so like you know I sure I get the fees for four years and I'm like paying attention to the fact that I've staked for four years I'm gonna vote I'm in it and stuff and you can actually see that with how much people are building and talking about curve we're talking about curve like right like everyone everyone is talking about curve you can then judge the the product and the tokenomic slightly separately you can say well you know curves like amm is like losing to uniswap V3 or like maybe it's like this or that or there's a bunch of people that have opinions of like well uniswap is more gas efficient it's more uh Capital efficient it's more this and that fair fair enough you can analyze

the the product in isolation and the and the tokenomics and isolation and for the tokenomics like we're talking about the the curve tokenomics not the uni tokenomics which proves the point right in fact if if you like uni V3 uh in every way more than uh curve I actually think that the right objective view would be to wish that uni had ve uni and so like uniswap had this uh system and there's obviously like projects that are trying to build it slightly independently I think there's like bunny right there's the that thing but my whole my whole Spiel here is that

I'm a ve tokenomic person that doesn't mean every single project that does that that thing I think is just greater or something like that but I think people that just immediately think they know that the tokenomics are just terrible and it's always a scam yet as time goes on everyone continues to build and and the tokenomics actually give value because it coordinates a large number of people and projects together I think the empirical evidence shows that their world view is is not correct that's just my opinion so like I think like on a practical level like remember we're in crypto world so like four years for us is like legitimately like 40 years for like a Trad fire

decision right and like it's super easy for me today to be like I love Apple I'm gonna commit dollars to Apple for 40 years but like forget what Apple does like my life's Gonna Change like I might need money I might go gamble the rest on [ __ ] like you know and so like I just the reality is is people are stupid and they can't look that far forward and I think that like if you just like like look man like I probably would have locked my curve if I had gotten like a good aloe like day one but now we're three years later and like I see how big the loans the founders are taking and I see that like when there's an existential hack it's all about like getting into bed with like some like

pretty weird characters you know like I I don't think that like we philosophically should be saying like sucks to suck you know and so that's why I'm a fan of the rage quit option it's like you get out the protocol gets to keep part of um your promise and so so is there a is there a protocol that very closely matches with your view because it it sounds like if I understand you correctly you like the vecr Visa there's just one big thing that's missing that and and you really want to like the ve token system again if I misunderstanding you say something but it's just missing this one big thing which is just this thing where if you made a mistake there's some algorithm or constant for

like trying to pay for like my grandparents like surgery you know yeah like like just [ __ ] happens you know and I think I don't even think the ve token system is wrong today I'm just saying like if what do you think is a protocol that has near perfect or as good as possible tokenomics like what what flash flashbots and and how so for people listening and for me as well I don't actually know the exact space they don't have a token ah so you're like the Orthodox view okay I think there should be one token if there we go you've said it and and uh I I you know I I love deferring views but obviously we're and and where we can have great discussion and stuff I I

think that view is is respectable I don't think it's the correct view well sorry okay to be clear what does a token mean like there should be stable coins yeah uh no no I I mean I mean like like uh like a token yeah and and basically or even I don't know if you want to think a utility token basically my my view is my view is that the so it sounds like you're like an orthodox token uh or like an orthodox crypto person which means like you think that an L1 blockchain is the only kind of legitimate mechanism that should have some kind of

incentivization of like of a scarce digital asset right like to make it work like essentially like a coordination mechanism right like you're you're of the belief that if you design smart contracts or any kind of service uh either within the blockchain or flashbots is technically like slightly out of it in the mempool and stuff but yeah or like just smart contracts or something you're of the view that if a token right something of value is is needed to kind of make it work uh it's not probably a good product would that be correct I like I actually think that I'm like the least Orthodox crypto person because I'm like the most like Trad five Maxi person like I you know okay that might

have just been my label Orthodox to me means like the original like the uni guys the maker guys the compound guys Orthodox I kind of view it as I'm a as a philosophy major so I like to view things in terms of like beliefs like Orthodox Christianity Orthodox metaphysics and like like neoplatenness I mean maybe maybe you know what I just my last episode was with Hudson Jameson one of like the Etho G's and he agreed with me so maybe I would agree with like Hayden and team but look like I think that they're Orthodox purpose yeah I don't find fair enough like I think the purpose of what we're doing here has nothing to do with Finance I think that like Bitcoin like the zero to one Innovation was like okay we have now

created a permissionless trustless Computing space now it [ __ ] sucks all we can do is like do plus and minus but like that's the Innovation and then like all this politics like ossification digital gold like [ __ ] [ __ ] they kicked vitalik out vitalik creates ethereum like that's the promise I really believe like Bitcoin is just like a Ponzi [ __ ] like whatever I think that like almost everything else is like I think the purpose of what we're all doing here is ethereum and like the point is is that ethereum provides the background layer it is part of the internet it is the part of the internet that allows us to express property and so like I that

those are my first principles I don't think that the purpose of what we're doing here has anything to do with like Finance or money and I think that because of American capitalism which is global capitalism because like we all do want to get rich like because of like so many reasons we've been sucked into it but like I I think that like what a toke not what a non-l1 crypto economic token and what a non-stable coin is is a illegal security that we are printing money out of nothing so that we can hand it off to each other so that we can get people to do risky things that they shouldn't be doing but eth is not a security in your view no I well maybe it is I don't care I

just don't I don't care about this like security not security thing um I just do think that like I'm not gonna pick on anyone in this call right but like I do think that the alcx token is the only reason it has any value is because we're treating it like a stock oh yeah of fair enough and I think that that's uh that's a reasonable view um I think for first of all I actually agree totally in terms of what you think the view and the value of ethereum is in fact that's actually why I became enamored with it in terms of the original World computer when vitalik was it yeah they shouldn't have but but hopefully they'll make it come back

hopefully yeah but but I think now you know the the D.A layer of everything kind of which sounds too nerdy doesn't really probably make sense for anyone outside crypto but especially since we're doing State expiry or I mean uh transaction expired yeah yeah no man and so look like I think that the purpose of ethereum is to create this like substrate layer and I'm not saying that Defy is like a a joke that's going to go away forever I think that defy is just like one tiny corner of this in the same way that like computers are so much bigger than tradfy like but the way we think about ethereum and about crypto is that it's just for

finance and like that's kind of um where I like get I get so like find myself bashing my head against the the echo chamber that like we currently find ourselves in this is what I was saying at the beginning when we started talking which I said a lot of stuff at the Early times when I got into crypto was different but a lot of it was also the same because a lot of it in the early stages actually vitalik and the original guys Joe Lubin and and uh in the original videos they're actually talking about a lot of this stuff that wasn't Financial they were also talking about financial but a lot of stuff that wasn't Financial that's finally happening um and and so you're totally right in the sense that it was finally like seven

eight nine years uh after all of this stuff was like envisioned that some of the non-financial stuff uh is is happening so some of the stuff that uh they thought will would take off also never did like right like prediction markets I think have been like the biggest dud that uh yeah I feel like I could bet a lot of money on prediction markets today can you like I mean there's no huge prediction Market on on ethereum I guess there's the poly Market stuff right but there's not that many I don't honestly I'm not a gambler so you know me I don't know yeah but I mean they the main one of the main things uh just like a lot of this stuff was non-financial and then some of the financial stuff didn't work out right so

you're totally right there's a lot of stuff that's uh right on that's that wasn't Financial that's finally taking off um and I guess you know technically everpedia also was a non-finance is IQ dot Wiki the new name is this non-financial use case right yeah no exactly exactly and I uh you know I'm not going to derail talking about IQ Wiki like there's just too much to talk about but um I think look I will just like show my cards and tell you where I want to get with like the last five to ten minutes of this conversation is to try to convince the founder of frax finance that that actual product is not the stable coin has nothing to do with dollar anything like the magic that you guys have created was like you issued a

stable coin you learn how to master the curve game you learn how to master building out these like really impressive things but the game you've heard me say this privately the game is in fraxi and the game is in validators and the game is in like ethereum so we won't talk about that yet let's go through frax V3 so why don't you just kind of like um save us some time and just tell us like what is it what what is it so far that you've released for sure first thing I'll just say as an aside obviously we think uh frax eth is is a huge huge part of what we're building that's why it's like uh grown so big so I totally agree and some of that that aspect uh as a stable coin maximalist I I obviously have to say I also spend

most of my time thinking about stable coins so um frax V3 and Alex this is probably one of the first times I'm talking about some of these things so the alpha towards the end will be kind of pretty interesting right uh it's a it's a four-prong design and what that means is uh actually the frax logo has has these uh spikes on it it's actually the trivia is that it's like actually asking character for the general currency sign so um something people didn't know um and so there's four prongs to the frax V3 strategy one is the the BAM which we're working on which is the collateralization and and lending method for allowing frax V3 to be backed by decentralized crypto assets that can't

have bad debt and doesn't need oracles it's actually a very unique system I've talked about it briefly so this part is is not completely new um here but that will be essentially our like CDP engine uh so to speak and it's totally different it's not like a maker Dao cdpn it's something that defies like never seen before so that that's a problem one in the front like when this is deployed is um the BAM replacing fraxlin or supplementing fraxland supplementing for excellent we're not just shutting down for excellent and and actually you'll you'll see yo so so when I go through the remaining three prongs all right I'm just going to shut up yeah no you ask great questions I mean perfect uh num prong number two is frax Guff so one

of the main things that has both been uh criticism of both frax ether and uh frax the dollar PEX stable coin is that it relies on the uh msig having certain admin ad uh permissions on uh some of the smart contracts essentially the to to be clear the trust model currently pre-frax V3 uh is that the m6ig signers which are a lot of the core team are not malicious right the msig not being malicious is the trust model pre-frax V3 so the second prong is deploying the system with frax gov which is our fully on-chain governance system every single permission every single

action has to happen must happen on chain uh with the approval or the non-vito of the efxs voters the votes happen on chain there is no snapshot votes this snapshot votes are just social signaling for something that's going to be loaded on chain so that's the second prompt fully decentralized you go ahead no and we don't need to um instead of like using the remaining time to like really dig into that um I'll just point everyone in the direction of I think you or someone from your team did like a two hour flywheel Deep dive on like what fraxcove is so I think it was John from our core Dev uh Team who's the frax gov lead that's a very good episode actually yeah yeah perfect so I will link that if you want to learn more about fraxcov go for that but what's

number three number three is uh slimming down the Amos this is the least interesting part but this already answered right this is we're still keeping fraxland and some of the curve in uniswap ammos but with different newer strategies which makes it uh much more robust number four is fxb so these are called frax bonds I haven't talked about this with uh anywhere else the the way that these work is they're totally autonomous bonds we think of them as what kind of basis was like trying to do with their basis bonds system but something that will actually work because the time is now right to actually have a actual algorithmic Bond system the way it works is that there's just a factory on chain again this is

all on chain these aren't real world bonds or anything these are decentralized what happens is governance decides some amount of cap or Bond fxp tokens to sell there's only four series of them they each uh mature on January 1st of every year so 2024 2025 2026 2027 and they're auctioned off uh in a GDA gas efficient on-chain auction and so we've worked on the auction system and everything and people buy them and they have the on-chain guarantee when they actually buy the fxb one Frac stablecoin is minted into the frax bond tokens address and it will automatically always

be converted to one frac stablecoin at the maturity date it's kind of like treasuries that have to be repaid right because the US Government Can mint dollars these fxps are debt denominated and fracks they will be repaid on the date in Frac stable coins the question is will the Frac stable coins be collateralized enough to to remain at PEC right that that's the that's the main question right and so the the final part of this is the fxb's power the the real world asset uh engine of the frax protocol because you have a list of maturities that you know everyone knows without permission without an msig trust

or anything will actually mature into Frac stable coins and so you can actually have a yield curve on chain you know that one year two year three or four year uh they will yield for example five percent six percent eight percent ten percent there's a yield curve you can actually if you're an investor of decentralized bonds fxbs you can actually buy these things right and the frax protocol knows what it actually has to make in terms of yield from either real world assets on chain through either curve farming whatever lending or something and any other system to actually repay them and what's unique about this system is that it doesn't actually require you to in any way uh manage duration risk because you

know exactly what the duration risk is you just have to hit the yield benchmarks on each of the bond series and so if you for example as as like a as a vfxs governance voters know that a let's say two-year U.S treasury bill yields six percent right and in tratfi you can have a governance vote that sells two-year fxbs up to six percent as many people as want to buy them they can buy them for 94.94 fracs they're guaranteed to get one frax in two years they're guaranteed it's in the smart contract there's no admin function it's actually swappable it's almost like an amm you could swap the fxb on maturity

date then the frax protocol has to go and swap out the for treasury bills from the funds that it raised from selling the fxb so this engine coupled with the BAM which is the over collateralized engine that can actually take basically long-term long tail volatile crypto assets will basically be the heart of of frax V3 and it sounds simple it's just like okay two things in like a governance module uh but like I said the the idea here is elegance and simplicity it has a real world asset engine it has a long tail uh no Oracle needed no governance needed uh decentralized

lending engine in the BAM and has a liquidity engine the bam is it stands for borrow amm and so I've talked about that before too so hopefully that entire thing is is what I call the the final stable coin in terms of a dollar pack stable coin and so that's it dude incredible all right you just threw down so much stuff there let me like try to make sure that I like hit all the main points okay so first I'm just going to put the borrow amm completely to the side and just say like borrow lending like we all know how that works black box right so on the bond side like first let me just be clear with like what you're saying how it works so I as a user will go put my like I'll buy my frax bond and then

are you saying that immediately the second I take a frax bond out of the protocol the frax protocol is already minting the payout into like an escrow scar smart contract or are you saying that I just know that by reading the code that that will happen uh I mean both of those are economically the same thing but yeah it will actually physically mint the the fracs into the contract and you will see it's there for you to redeem with no like admin feature to like freeze the smart contractors like you will get out the same way when you hold a US treasury bill you know that the FED will print dollars to repay you right it's the same idea yeah and look like without getting into like the theoretics between like what what is

money and what makes a dollar like the biggest difference between the frax and the dollar is that like nobody's enforcing that you use frax at the point of a gun right and so like that's what the government Yeah well yeah one thing I I want to uh this is a normative economic claim and I and I don't again want to derail stuff but uh the bonds the debt is denominated in fracs so so it by definition like normatively economically like the bonds can never default because you're guaranteed to get repaid in fracs you're not guaranteed the frax will remain at Peg right hopefully it does right just like how

you you hope that the dollar when you get the bond like the t-bill uh repaid inflation isn't 5 hundred percent and and the piece of paper is literally worthless right uh I always like to compare the dollar as the dollar is a stable coin its Peg is the CPI plus two percent Target like that is the dollars Peg and so when when that's off like it has been for the for the past like 18 months uh it's technically like the dollar stable coin is off Peg right if if inflation's eight percent the dollar is basically a stable coin that's six percent off Peg right but but anyway you're totally right um that no one needs to use frax right no no sorry you just anticipated where I

was going with this um in that like so the the what I was trying to build up to is essentially like I take I buy the frax bond and then that day you're putting the frax aside to say like in a year two years three years four years like this is the frax right here that will be released and then like essentially like as exactly you're saying um like the US government doesn't need to worry about like what's the value of that dollar gonna be in one two three four years like it's gonna be a dollar and we're gonna ask for our things and all you have to worry about that but what you're saying so so I mean we have to make sure it's it's at Peg right the commitment the expectation that frax is at Peg is kind of the same commitment

that people are hoping hyperinflation doesn't happen right yeah so so the idea here is that if you just took my proceeds and like didn't do any of them and do anything with them in one year like you would basically be printing up new fracks to like make my yield but you're not doing nothing with them like the goal is like because you know the duration and you know exactly the percentage that you need to pay out you know like I need to make at least this much uh real yield or the it's going to be um reflected in the peg that is exactly correct the and and that's exactly what will power the frax real world asset

engine because you know the duration and the amount there's only two ways to make sure the whole thing continues to function right one is to exactly as you said make sure that you're getting as much yield so that uh the the amount you're borrowing matches the amount you're earning or number two which I wouldn't recommend which is not what we're doing gonna do at frags but it's what the US government does which is print new debts to pay off the old debt so the other way to make sure frax would remain at Peg technically is when the new fxb uh when the old fxp comes due right on January 1st of like 2024 there's a there's a fxb January 1 2025 that that intakes a bunch of uh fracts

to repay uh the new fracs that's going to enter Supply which is what the US government does it's tax revenue is is not enough to it it deficits spends right it has a big deficit uh that's the other way which we're not going to aim for but uh that's technically the other option yeah and again look things are like totally different when like you're a sovereign and like you're the Sovereign of the Global Financial system but we don't need to get into that so the reason I just like went through such painstaking efforts to like really understand how this system works is because look man like the big pushback whenever anybody says like oh we're gonna do essentially t-bills on chain right or

you're you're being more broad you're saying real world assets but like it's that the what the government wants is like for only like registered Americans who have like you know been accredited and whatever gone through this process to have access to T bills and like there's just like we can be as clever as we want we can use computer science but like at the end of the day like if you're just buying a t-bill and then projecting out that like that Revenue you're essentially taking a government security and then turning it into your own security um can you talk through how like the construction that you just described plus like what is happening on the rwa side like really approaches this from a

like completely new angle that like makes that old argument just like not relevant yeah and that's again uh it's a great question I'm not sure if you're gonna be satisfied with this answer but uh in Earnest and I truly believe this isn't just like a an answer I'm just throwing out on on uh air but all of this stuff is it is explanations right like the like whether something is a security is not it's it's a social construct right and the thing is I actually don't think the structure that we're doing it is anything like the tokenized t-bill uh projects that are

actually doing tokenized t-bills for one uh like I just told you these fxbs are the debt is denominated in fracks uh no one is actually holding tokenized versions of treasury bills um only the the frax protocol has certain off-chain relationships right today we're uh announced one with finres PPC which is an internal project uh that we're actually doing but we can sign up with other custodians um I think makers doing it with like block tower or something like that there's obviously many Solutions but our design is I think genuinely again normatively different it's not just like you said uh I mean the pessimistic view is it is just you

know making up different words and and like it but you're at the Crux of it you're just figuring out some kind of regulatory Arbitrage or something like that uh I actually genuinely don't believe it because I think the the design is different if we allow people to redeem for tea bills if we guaranteed uh you're entitled to the yield of the you're not that you're you're interacting with a decentralized stablecoin protocol when you buy the fxb you're guaranteed to get frax tokens it's a different token back that's the only debt you're entitled to there's absolutely no kind of Downstream expectation obviously maybe there's an argument for it but uh normatively like like

economically the debt is in fracs you're going to get repaid fracs how much that frax will be worth I mean you can make like many many orders of magnitude of Downstream arguments while the fracks will probably be worth something assuming there's some t-bills somewhere that some custodian might have yield that might give it back to the protocol that might collateralize the Frac stable coin so it doesn't you know break pick fair but I actually think that compared to like you're saying all the you know t-bill projects literally t-bill projects right uh that is totally different um at least that that's what I think I guess with like kind of final question

here before we just wrap up is um like how are you talking to the bank about this like look like with with t-bills like there has to be like somebody old right that is like physically just taking um you know taking custody like doing all the paperwork that kind of stuff doing compliance transparency reports like you're saying the the adult stuff in the back of the room yeah like how do you explain to them that like you want them to hold these t-bills on behalf of a protocol that ha that is owned by this frax gov module that has the Alpha and the Omega and there's the like how how

how uh uh I will tell you that the that it's taken many months to get someone to uh a group again like you're saying a group of adults to be satisfied to give it a try in the orders of eight and nine figures so at least to start um but I think to put it shortly and bluntly I guess the same way that block tower is is down to for the how question right with with maker and stuff uh a lot of time and and uh compliance um but a lot of this stuff again is is new um I that's why I kind of genuinely I respect your view of you know

maybe this is all just computer science lingo and it is just t-bills but maybe it's it's really not genuinely the stuff is new um and really there there isn't actually clear uh obvious so some people think it's obvious but then some people don't so by definition there's clearly not obvious consensus when you look at the whole set right so I think it is different right and so there isn't precedence so you have to get people that are willing to trailblaze in in this area right um and so like for example block tower and and uh monitor Anchorage exactly all all of them there's already um

there's already crypto friendly banks that are trying to fill the void uh that Silver Gate and Signature Bank left um and we're working with one of them and then we're also actually believe it or not I I can't say the name publicly because like you know banks are super sensitive and all this like stuff but um there's like a top five bank that's like uh slowly like you said it's very very slowly uh warming up to giving it a try and obviously it depends on the macro uh regulatory aspects of it but uh you might be surprised no I mean look I just to be clear like I am not here saying like this is all [ __ ] like we're just using computer science word like I I'm trying to represent a um like

push basically like the entire conversation around the t-bill projects um I think like what I said about 20 minutes ago about how I want to convince you like fracks should drop a stable coin and go entirely to eth like has nothing to do with any of this like regulatory stuff and like risks that frax is taking with Gary or like that you personally are taking with Gary like for me it's entirely that like I'm just gonna like we have not talked about this I have no inside information I'm gonna guess the top five Bank you're talking to is JP Morgan and if it's not them it's the other four because I know for a fact all of them are working on crypto projects right like jpmorgan's openings

I can't confirm or deny but I can say you're a good guesser but I can't confirm but like JP Morgan first it was Quorum now it's Onyx and like I guess like my my thought to you of like Get out of stable coins go to eat is because I know for a fact that Papa Jamie and all of his little people that want to be him are like chomping at the bit to get into crypto and the second that they have like the legal rails to get in like I fully believe that like JP Morgan is just gonna say like oh yeah we'll just issue our stable coin you know we'll provide you're seeing it with ATF right you're at least seeing that with a Bitcoin ETF like this this

curve right curve versus uniswap like let's like get into our whole G5 debate about which is best and tokenomics is this is a JPMorgan they're just gonna be like oh we'll let you do swaps for free because will you like the data flow you know like my thesis is that this entire game just like completely changes like we're farts in the Wind of these people I was 24 when they put me in charge of 20 billion dollars of cash flow at one company like that's how seriously they take our amount of money and so like I they were fish we're small fish yeah man we're nothing we're nothing and we're we're computer scientists right like we're building these technologies that like JP Morgan can like use to change the world and

like what's cool about ethereum is that for the first time in human history you and me can like own a upside in the technology as it changes the world like this is HTTP but you and I get paid 0.111 cents every time someone types it in I mean that I I think a lot of what you said is is a good point I guess the the main thing is why do you think JP Morgan won't try to displace ethereum is it just that ethereum is is too decentralized people don't want it but the the to use like a JPMorgan chain but they'll use JPMorgan swap or JP Morgan uh D5 or JPMorgan stablecoin or you don't you get what I'm saying right like

yeah so you're like your theorem is yeah you're saying ethereum is amazing and we get to you know change the world with that but everything else they're just going to use Papa Jamie's thing so I'm actually kind of curious and I don't I don't want to derail that no no awesome man I love the I love it but like today right now Onyx the JPMorgan chain private evm chain is already doing billions of dollars of repo transactions every single day like we don't talk about that in our little corner of D5 but like like this is already happening and like I fully believe like come on turn on CNN or Fox News or whatever like I fully believe that our government is capable of doing something as stupid as like making it illegal to run ethereum

software in your home like you and me we might need to be talking about real estate in Dubai in Singapore in a couple like months right like that's totally totally possible but like I'm willing to do it because like I fully believe that in 10 years America will be rolling back all of their like stupid regulations and trying to catch back up we've been through this before like none of this [ __ ] is new we had a bunch of different private internets AOL like online like all this stuff and like the this Network Technology like work speak it's it's what's that it's like one plus one equals three like the more people that participate the more powerful it is and like any question in my mind

that that we've talked about this before like I've been to Iran I was there in that like three months that it Americans were allowed to go like my fiance is Russian like any doubts in my mind that like ethereum is not inevitable because America just isn't the king of the world like was washed away when America just went into the central bank and took 600 billion dollars of Russia's Central reserves like that's not acceptable and like people will be looking for different options and I just believe that like ethereum is inevitable well that that's well said I I think I would agree with that and but in an optimistic from from kind of an optimist view I I like like

you know I I was born in Iran and Iranian American but sorry I didn't want to argue no no I mean it's it's a um I I genuinely think America is the greatest country in the world and and the reason for that is that they have almost always and dare I say literally every time been on the right side of every single Financial uh technological transportation and energy Innovation since their Inception from railroads to to oil Discovery to air uh airplanes and and air travel to the internet right and it's we'll see with crypto but but I I think that what you're saying is you

know maybe they screw it up and then 10 years later they'll be like oh crap we screwed up and it's inevitable or something but I I think that America is almost always on the right side of History whether it's because of its separation of powers the way that uh it has like a civically engaged population and just a very individualistic and Innovative like society and and people but I just think that that applies to not just embracing ethereum but decentralized Finance decentralized stable tokens stable coins and and these kinds of things it doesn't just start and end at ethereum um but I agree with you about the

ethereum part and I actually agree with you from an optimistic uh standpoint a lot of people come at it from this view that you know America did this to like Russia or it sanctioned Iran or or like the everyone's trying to de-dollarize because you know um the the US is using the dollar as kind of like a political weapon and these kinds of things and that can all be true at the same time as the U.S is the most Innovative and free country in the entire world and and it it doesn't screw itself in terms of being on the right side of uh every kind of technological uh Innovation and and I

think maybe I'm too naive maybe I'm too hopeful honestly the past few months I I've doubted that a little bit with like what's going on with the SEC and stuff but uh I've started to have even more hope and and reassure myself the past few weeks that my initial view about you know being very proud to be American and very proud to be on the kind of right side of History uh is correct we'll we'll see right we should we'll see like history it has it it's coming whether you like it or not so we'll see what happens right yeah now I I'm like so confident that we agree with each other because I find that we're like kind of like debating around like look man like I what my response to what you're saying

is is like oh dude I'm super optimistic too I just was like trying to make the point that ethereum is inevitable you know and and look I I think um I basically think that if somebody writes about it in the news or crypto Twitter if you take the opposite take like you're probably right and I think that like if you just get off the internet like this is like the most exciting time to be in crypto like at least since I've been in it and so um I just like I think like I very much believe that the point of this is to have like property on the internet and then everything flows from that and so like what I'm not here to tell you that like Sam because I mean is

wrong and like don't do something like dude like the point of ethereum is like everyone can do whatever they want and like that's the beauty of it um I just really encourage you to like continue like on the ethereum side of it and not not on like the finance money side of it because like I think the finance money side like you're you're up you're literally up against the most richest powerful man in institution that's ever walked this planet and on the computer science side yeah vitalik's ahead of you but I don't know how many other people are well I I am as ethereum aligned as probably uh anyone can get and and so that's why everything we do is ethereum

first and uh totally see eye to eye with you on the vision that ethereum basically makes digital property possible um like you said Bitcoin was the the most simplest you know just numbers uh and ethereum is basically the the open slates the blank slate of digital property on on the entire internet so I mean I totally agree with that uh and and I think uh I don't know I think vitalik is probably ahead of me by a long shot anyway so so we could we could I'm pretty confident that I I think even if that's true the distance between you and vitalik is [ __ ] tiny when you look at the entire globe

like compared to let's say like the distance between you and the top five banks and the entire Globe I think you're giving me too much technical credit and vitalik not enough um I'm just saying like like we I just know how to code stuff that's exactly the point that's exactly the point and like the message that I want to like leave the audience with is that like this is what it means to be on the bleeding edge it's like some unemployed jackass that used to work at a beer company and like some like Prodigy who like invented like three companies like can contribute in a way that is like shaping the future of like not just our industry but the entire world and so like you and I can have like debates on

like with your billion dollar protocol like which opportunities should be your primary one but like that's not the point the point is like what it means to be here is like Sam kazemian Rex kirschner vitalik buterin like [ __ ] nobody nobody crypto and on like we all have the opportunity to contribute and like that's what's special about being here and that that's really well said and that that's totally true sorry if you're graceful back out of like the humble game between you and vitalik so if you all right anyways Sam uh thank you so much for the time I I can't even express uh how much how awesome this was and how much it means to me um before I let you go just people know how to find you but

any socials or anything you want to shout out uh I'm always on uh Twitter and telegram 24 7 unless I'm sleeping uh but I'm always there really available and it's always a pleasure Rex to talk to you with have the the coolest conversations and hopefully we could do it again I hope so and uh yeah man I just good luck on frax V3 and V4 and taking over the world thank you thank you