Building a Coordi-Nation with Primavera De Filippi

Transcript

foreign [Music] ation how's it going on the Pod today we have Primavera de Felipe who is a research fellow at Harvard University's Berkman Center for internet society and a research director at the national Center of scientific research in Paris uh Prima is a long time researcher on blockchain Tech director of the European funded project blockchain gov and a co-host of the blockchain Socialist podcast series entitled overflowing the network state so basically blockchain gov is a European based transition playery research effort aimed at promoting better on-chain and off-chain distributed governance practices and looks at how blockchain can be used to

support Community institutional and Global governance Prima is also an artist using artistic practices to illustrate her research in creating blockchain based art I wanted to have her on the podcast to talk about this idea that she has four combinations or coordinations as Network State Alternatives so if you've been listening to the Pod for the last 100 episodes you know that I'll like to call the audience coordination it's a little [ __ ] post after Ryan and David call Their audience bankless Nation but you know what would it take to build a coordination and uh how does that differ from a network state if you're interested in the idea of giving people options and giving people voice as opposed to just the ability for them to exit their Nation

States into Network States then this episode is for you Prima is just a Galaxy brain I appreciate that she thinks deeply about blockchain based governance but it's not just Theory she is also building these things an art as an artist is actually building things that uh play with these ideas and plays with these Concepts in the real world and I just think that a priori knowledge knowledge and theory and empirical knowledge which is knowledge divide uh divide derived through experience are just a really powerful way for exploring new design spaces in Prima for me it exemplifies that so one of the most requested podcast guests that I've had for the Greenfield podcast and so I'm really excited to present to you today Primavera de Lupe enjoy coordination

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instead of being a for-profit company glow is a non-profit that donates 100 of all yields from the globe Reserve to give directly's basic income program give directly is a charity that gives people money no strings attached to people living in poverty and is a charity that vitalik has previously donated to and supported in the past with glow you can reduce poverty just by holding a stable coin glow is launching in early 2023 and you can join the waitlist at glodollar.org greenpill that's Gro dollar dot org slash green pill hey Primavera how's it going hi everybody good how about you pretty good I I know that we've been circling each other for a long time so really excited to really excited to chat

so can you tell me maybe a good place to start would be this new series that you have on the blockchain Socialist podcast series called overthrowing the network State what's that all about um yeah so this is uh this is an interesting Series in the sense that um uh there is a little group of uh of people that uh somehow like self-identified each other um a little couple of people that are actually highly disappointed uh by the book the network state from Balaji uh but the interesting thing is that the reason that we are so disappointed about this book is because we all have very high expectations about the book uh because the idea of a network state is

actually something that does resonate a lot uh and then reading the book all of sudden a lot of the hopes and expectation that we had um as slowly dismantled over how every page is um and and and yet the concept of an antioxide is interesting and uh and I think there is there is some resonance that the book nonetheless has managed to create and there is some quite a large amount of people that do resonate with the underlying principle the notion the concept the name of the network State uh which might not at all have anything to do with the way in which it is described uh into the book and so the idea with the podcast is

actually to try and provide uh an alternative narrative an alternative conceptualization of what and whether it's called a network state or not a network State uh that's that's another question but um that particular concept that people are resonating around and and we want to make sure that these these initial um Coalition of Interest this resonance that the book has created does not get dissipated just because when people read the book they realize that's not really what they were hoping for uh and kind of like piggybacking on the initial uh installation of the book in order to actually create an alternative concept that the people that was reading the

book and got disappointed by the book actually can qualis around do you have a name for the alternative that you want to build uh have you settled on an alternative meme to network state yeah so that's actually the Big Challenge because the network state is an amazing meme it's an amazing name um we've been playing around with the notion of qurdi nation our community in terms of community and Nation uh but yeah the idea is to create an alternative meme that doesn't focus on the concept of statehood but rather focus on the concept of nationhood uh and that is just as appealing and

attractive as a network State uh but that that reflects better what we are really talking about which doesn't have much to do with a state but Mark with a new way of coordinating Nations yeah well uh you know it's just a fun little meme for me because I've been calling the audience of the green pill podcast coordination for about a year now and that was just it started off as a [ __ ] post because Ryan and David uh green pill goes out on the bank list Network and Ryan David are they call Their audience the bankless nation and so I thought it would be fun to call the green pill audience the coordination but it's kind of stuck I think it's a good meme so I'll throw that in the as as the hat in the ring and maybe we could build the meme together but I'm actually

curious hey if you have any reactions to to that as a meme but also you know what's the difference with between like statehood and Nation nationhood because I I heard you kind of pick apart and and focus more on I think nationhood over over statehood yeah so um the state is a very institutional bureaucratical uh entity which uh essentially gather like is the way in which a particular Nation uh choose to coordinate itself to a particular territorially based institution uh that you know create particular government and govern that

population on a particular territory um whereas the nation is more the is more like so I'm not gonna use the words institutional and institutional uh but it's like it's the more um cultural and uh and interpersonal thing in which there is a group of people that do identify themselves as sharing a particular uh cultural background or cultural values and principles and and there is this sense of collective identity that comes with it right and so today when we talk about nation states uh oftentimes those two things are intermingled with one another uh even to in fact states do not

necessarily match with Nations and we have seen this for instance with like Yugoslavia or like you know where you have one state that actually encompasses multiple Nations and this might also create some issues at some point this Versa you have Nations that can like spend a cost uh jurisdictions and not across territories which nonetheless recognize themselves as a particular Nation so the two are very different event to historically there is a strong connection because usually a state is the way in which a nation choose to coordinate itself but in practice the two are very different one is very institutionally constructed as a governance structure and the author is

more of a identity cultural recognition that people belong to a particular nation and and there is this self-identification as part of this nation um right so I think that's an important distinction um well you know I guess I'd like to really move into why we want to overflow the network state so I'm on the networkstate.com oh sorry go ahead yeah so um biology in the the network state.com has the network state in one sentence in one image in one essay and in one book and the the one sentence definition is a highly online aligned online community with a capacity for

Collective action that crowdfunds territory around the world and eventually gains diplomatic recognition from pre-existing States so um do you have pushback on on that definition or is it when you start to get into a more High Fidelity version of biology's vision that you start to really have a a problem with the network State concept or movement or Vision so to me my first red flag is actually when there is the claim of uh cut funding territory in order to acquire diplomatic recognition because when you talk about acquiring diplomatic recognition and actually when you talk about Network State and you're talking about a state in some way it's kind of

interesting because the world the world narrative is about states are not apt uh to manage the the new modern or technologically enhanced uh or enabled community that uh that are emerging nowadays but at the same time the network state is actually exiting from the state in order to create a new state and so you actually there is little innovation in that sense you're you're actually just you're not happy with the way in which existing nation states are operating and therefore let's create a new state but actually you're creating the same thing except that you're exiting from the previous one to take the new one which to me sounds a little bit funny right it's

like we do actually have new opportunities we have new technology that enable new possible ways of coordination and if if there is indeed those Nations and I think I think the place in which we bought resonate is that with Balaji is that the internet and digital technology have enabled the emergence of new nations that are not geographically bound and these like full full acknowledgment absolutely uh agree on that point now the problem that I see in balaji's book is that the reaction to the fact that there are new nations that are emerging which are digitally bound uh or digitally native is to recreate a state to reuse the same uh governance

systems that we have created before the internet uh which is the statehood and instead of actually exploring are there new mechanisms that do not even look at all like a state but that enable those new digital Nations and not not only digital because in the analysis but digital and physical but that enabled those new nations to coordinate themselves in a novel way that doesn't have to replicate the same institutional background that the state has had and and to me this is where I was very I had very high expectation about the network said because I felt it was an innovation on the notion of statehood and instead uh reading the book it just it just

happens to be like just yet another states that just see it like it's a distributed state in the terms of like it's Network territories but the actual infrastructure is pretty close to what we have today in terms of statehood right and all of the all of the things that sort of come along with that exactly so I'd be curious if we're building a coordination or uh communication I think is the other meme that you used what what is your vision for that I wonder if you could unfurl uh unfurl that a little bit for us uh yeah so to me one thing that really um bothers me about this exit based type

of solution that biology provides is that uh the state is actually I mean you know we might dislike some states but if we think about it that's a that's a huge institution that is doing a lot of stuff uh if you exit one state you pretty much have to recreate a lot of what the state is doing and uh good luck doing that you know on your own like from scratch and so this kind of exit based governance means that in order to actually enjoy the benefits of uh this new network State type of things uh you actually have to exit the existing States and create your own little Southern

territory that declares independence and therefore is no longer supported by the existing States um which means that in some way like it's kind of like either oh right you kind of like you lose no matter what because you don't wanna you you wanna benefit from the network State because the network same I have like some really cool uh Advanced views and like stuff that I want but at the same time the only way I get that is exiting from my current state which actually might have a lot of things that I also like uh and so in some way I need to choose between this or that but I cannot have bought um so the the the alternative means of coordination combination or however we're gonna figure out a name to call it

um it's actually not based on this exit based type of governance but rather it's based on uh adding choices right and it's like how do we actually create more more capacity for people to plug themselves into a variety of combinations and coordinations which which do not require to exit from your existing nation states because you still want to benefit like there is a lot of benefits that you get from actually being in a particular State uh but there is a lot of things that you don't get and there is a lot of things that you think perhaps that today with digital communities and digital technology we

might do better and so let's experiment with that and let's try to actually set up those new mechanisms those additional layers of governance that are not competing with existing States but are actually cooperating with them by by providing additional services and and I can and people can choose to join and it's not about joining one and then you're just stuck in that particular one you can choose you can show choose between like 10 different ones and like in some way like the same thing that like you know blockchain and Define like this composability structure in which you have like a lot of small entities that are providing us more services but they can be interconnected but you can choose the way in which you you interconnect them and so all of a

student you have like a variety of additional choices and the choice about how you want to interconnect them and uh and and kind of like in some way like the the underlying narrative is that if if those combinations unders coordination actually do their job correctly then we can actually start understanding that there is some kind of Distinction to be made between uh the state and the state is is doing like the state is the landlord the state is doing some very important task of managing the land uh managing the infrastructure of the land and all that is like

intrinsically territorially bound you probably don't want to deal with that like the state is already doing that and yeah they are doing a good or bad job doesn't matter but like the combination can help the state can contribute to the state in order to help managing these like public or common infrastructure while also providing those additional layers in which things that are not at all are territorially bound and that the landlord doesn't have to deal with them right and today the thing is that the state is actually covering a very very large a very thick stack of stuff because there is no there is no alternative the only alternative is the market right and the idea is today to to explore these new

intermediary that is not a pure privatized market-based mechanism but that is also not a pure public system that is governed by the state but actually identifying that there are communities that are interested in providing uh or managing Collective resources and engaging into some kind of collective actions not in a market-driven perspective and not in a public state funded perspective either but rather with this kind of like comments based approach and all of student there is there is now three actors three typology of management and coordination that that that are that are that are interdependent to each other

there is the Public Public infrastructure which probably we want to live to the state because that's a that's a that's a hard job to deal with uh we have the market that is dealing with everything that wants to be private and then and then you have the combination coordination whatever you want to call it which is dealing with all this stuff in which existing nations are digital Nation new new type of Nations um recognize that there is something that they want to do together recognize that there are resources that they want to pull together and recognize also that they want to have a particular coordination mechanism in order to manage those resources and in order to

act collectively right and and and today we're so there's this very sharp distinction between public sector and private sector and the idea with the combination coordination is to inject a new typology of actors or entities which is like you know the Civic sector uh are like the common sector which is not fully private but is also not fully public and it's more common spaced yeah well um I just want to say that I'm getting flashbacks from listening to your overflow overflowing overthrowing the network State podcast that you've been running on the uh you've been

co-hosting on the blockchain Socialist podcast and so um that there's gonna be a link to that in the show notes would encourage our listeners to check out that podcast series I recall listening to that podcast and thinking that there was some sort of trilemma between exit and voice and participation and the criticism of the network state was that it was too exit focused um that might not be the trilemma though was it exit and uh in in voice and there was like a third axis that you could design for am I recalling am I remember that remembering that correctly no exactly so there is like there's the the usual the usual dichotomy is like it's like your voice uh and basically the network State Focus essentially on exit which is like

if you're not happy with the way things go don't worry you can just crowdfund your own territory and create a new state where everyone agrees with you great so exit base mechanism but what is the price of exit the price of exit is actual exit meaning that everything that you had in the Quran model you lose it because now you write it in that system so exit the system is is an interesting very interesting type of governance which has become very popular like the world the world concept of like exit and voice is mostly like for digital because when you have something digital exit is is cost less I mean there is always the cost of like losing the community and the network effect but it's it's easier to exit because you can literally cut

and paste and if I'm not happy with a particular software development I can take it and Fork it and all of a sudden I have exactly the same code base and I can try something else but I not losing all the infrastructure because the infrastructure is digital the problem of exit when you get into the physical space is that exiting actually means exiting like you actually leave a place to go to another place and then everything that was in that place you don't have access to it anymore so the the cost of exit becomes very high uh the alternative is voice where voice will be like you know let's let's speak let's let's uh let's do demonstration manifestation let's actually try to change things from the inside from the outside and so forth

uh which is basically like we recognize that this system is there we don't want to leave the system but we want to change it and so we are expressing our voice in order to change it um the the the the third one that we that we discussed during the podcast was um options right which is like there is always this this problem which is like what those even a Costless type of exit means that you're not locked in into a system if you don't have options you can exit to everywhere you are you want you can exit at any time but where do you go do you actually have the option to go to the place that you really want to go and if all the options are not pleasant then do you really have

sovereignty over which system you want to go or you're just going to go to the least worse one right and so options is interesting but in terms of exit meaning that the value of an exit based governance depends on the value of the options that are available to you but most importantly and I think this is this is where the combination coordinations comes about is like why do you even have to exit can you not just increase the number of choices without requiring the exit and just having all these kind of display to her of different systems that you can plug yourself into and the fact that I Join one system doesn't mean that I need to exit another system today to the extent that the systems recognize that there is

some degree of interdependence and and the thought there is a need for coordination between those interdependencies right and in some ways it's important because if you want full autonomy and full Independence this is very costly because full Independence means that you need to start from scratch you are no you depend on no one but therefore you depend only on yourself you have to build the whole stuff on your own and and that takes a lot of work uh whereas interdependence comes at the cost of interdependence you're not fully autonomous you you you are constraining a little bit your freedom but the capacity becomes much larger because all of a sudden one you

reduce the need for redundancy because if everyone is independent everyone needs to recreate everything on their own and so we have like that's very inefficient there is like so many redundancy because everyone wants to recreate their own thing from scratch um and so from like an efficiency perspective interdependence is actually better because you can we can all plug into the a particular system with of course the cave the art that then we need to figure out a way to govern this shared common resource right and this is this is what the challenge comes about and and to me in like the network State description of biology uh this whole question of governance is kind of like

dismissed as if we don't need governance anymore because we can just create our own systems uh but what is the cost of that and do we really want to recreate everything from scratch and do we really want to create such an extreme degree of redundancy just because we don't want to figure out a way to coordinate ourselves right um and and the world the world interesting part with the common based approach is that if we find people that are aligned and that share a particular societal Vision you still need coordination you will never escape from the problem with governments even the most extreme Network State as long as there is more than one person that will still be governance problems right

um so yeah yeah well would it be fair this might be too reductionist but it this is this is the way I'm conceiving it in my mind it seems like we understand that digital governance is going to be important like moving from the fan companies where we're all just surfs on Mark Zuckerberg's land in Bezos land um and we have no rights to a place where there is digital governance and communities are moving more and more online is going to be a thing and um and and then from there it's a question of well what do those communities look like and how do they relate to the communities that we're already in and if there's a trilemma between uh options and voice and exit it

feels like biology is in network state is very heavy on um distrusting the old institutions and on exit whereas the coordination is a little bit more spread across the options and exit and voice is that true reductionist is there anything you would push back on there in that conception um it's uh it's a good ocean action in that sense well one thing um one thing that I think is important is and I think the the network state does really well is that you know you look at the at the table of contents and it starts off with network state in one sentence in one image in one essay and then in one book and so whatever your

Fidelity or the amount of attention that you have it kind of has captured the meme at the 280 characters level or the 280 Pages level and I think it's like it's pretty important I'm a I don't know if anyone in the audience listens to my Twitter but I'm somewhat uh of a aspiring medicist myself and so figuring out a way to meme coordinations or combinations uh in in the same way that the network state has memed I think is is part of the the marketing for for this idea so just trying to find a simple way to explain coordinations and and how they differ from from Network States yeah so uh maybe I can try and suggest so uh we want to the exercise of time to Define uh coordinations or

combinations in one small well one small paragraph a few sentence which kind of tried to map uh like compare and contrast between the uh the network state definition so maybe I can try and propose this definition um so the idea is similarly to the network State uh our coordination or combination is a voluntary community of individual which have a short culture because that's the focus of nation uh which share also some principles and values and uh most importantly they all have either an explicit or an implicit uh agenda for achieving a shared

societal Vision right and and I think this is like not so different uh from the net oxide maybe a little a little difference will be that while the network state is actually uh based on like those basic fundamental principle which do not necessarily relate to a short societal Vision how it is like uh when Balaji talks about like the keto Network State um sure so a diet is an important element of one's lifestyle but that doesn't really talk of this societal vision of what would because you can have you can have many different society which are all keto and some of them are in a very different political

Direction than the other so it's kind of difficult to just look at this one fundamental principle that informed the network State and then assume that everyone that has this that does the same principle will actually show the same societal Vision so we try to be a little bit more um I guess granular or accurate in the definition of what is it that creates this commonality between people and it's not just that we that we think Quito is great but it is about the fact that we we share this vision of society right the second component is that a combination and this is also similar to the network State operates but at the global and at the local level it's not just a digital Community it's also

recognizing the fact that those people that belong to the digital Community also exist uh in the physical world and have their own communities in the physical world so a community Nation operates both at the global and at the local level and they have this objective of um bringing people together into Collective action in order to further that Vision that that societal Vision that that they have in common and um they have this also desire of collective governance and Collective management and use of Commons resources which is something that we added to the

definition of the network say because the networks it doesn't really talk about comments uh doesn't talk about common infrastructure common resources which is actually a fundamental element like any any type of nation that wants to coordinate itself eventually have some common resources to deal with uh and then the the third element which is where there is a big before caution between the network States and the combinations is that um the the combination is not competing with existing States so because they are not a state they are so if you have like two things that are the same things they are necessarily competing with each other uh if you have like apples and orange there's no competition I mean

they're about fruits but they're not competing with each other on that level uh and so the idea with the combination is not to create an alternative state that will require you to choose between one or the other but rather to cooperate and to actually exist alongside the current national States and adding so instead of like the network state is kind of like here is one state and then we are buying territory in the states in various States and then we are declaring sovereignty and we create this distributed territory for a new State uh with the combination the idea is not at all to claim sovereignty over any territory is to add layer of sovereignty that are transnational that don't that

transcends the notion of territory uh while recognizing the fact that people exist in the stereotypes and so by adding those new layer of sovereignty you you you declare the variety on those particular domains that are not geographically bound and that's the main difference because the network state is actually claiming territory and therefore claiming sovereignty over territorially based issues uh whereas the combination just leaves all that is territorial base to the state because that's what states are for deal with the territory and create those new layers of stuff of like sovereignty of like Collective management Collective action

and so forth but I don't think that is not necessarily bound to the territorian so the the if we take the analogy again of the landlord and the Tenant uh the landlord doesn't doesn't have to say about what I do in the house as long as I don't ruin the infrastructure um this is something that is to be dealt within the the the community that lives into the infrastructure right and so they come kind of like transnational entities of people that share particular values and societal Vision but that are taking care of everything but the territorial stuff and because of that they don't need to declass severante and in fact they are not in a competitive uh aspect with

existing state but quite to the opposite they are actually coming as collaborators because they are providing new services that perhaps the state is not providing or perhaps it's not providing good enough um and that communities are eager to provide to themselves yeah I'm wondering you know as I'm just kind of swimming in some of these ideas and listening to you if are there any projects out there that you think are building a combination or a coordination that that kind of fits your vision is there anyone that's doing it well right now and if not what can we do to engineer uh stimulate more people building these yes

um so I think I don't think there is any any tangible example of combination just like I think there is currently no tangible example of network state but the network set has inspired people to experiment with that um the combination is easier in some way because obtaining diplomatic recognition is very hard uh combination is more about I mean we do have already a lot of digital communities that uh you know operate and to some extent have like some childhood resources but those resources are oftentimes uh digital so I would say like a lot of the you know open source projects they're they're some very small prototype of a

combination in the sense that you have people that are working together the engaging Collective action uh they have their own governance on that particular digital resources the the challenge is how do you bring this back into the physical and I think this is where this is where there is a distinction between just a digital Community which we already have lots of and an actual combination which is not just digital but also interface with the physical world and with physical community and local communities um I will say like out of many and then maybe a controversial statement but I am very interested to explore this is actually like religions right if you

think about religions like I don't know like the the the Christianity uh you know so you have the Vatican which is we are not really this is a state but it's like it is it is it is it is bought a network State and a combination I think so it's very interesting uh and mental exercise but you have you have those entities in which like there's a there is a group of people that identify themselves with particular values that have a strong form of a Legends to those values uh and there is some kind of principle and like anywhere you go in the world you have like this embassies which are churches uh which which are not they are not declaring independence

it's not like you don't need to have like an actual Embassy of the Vatican in every country you just need to have a space and in this case those are like spaces of Tire uh but you have a space in which people know that they can come and meet and it's okay right like you there is no there's no claim of sovereignty over the territory but you're providing a service which in this case is a religious service uh so the I think religions have been kind of doing those things uh for many many years because because it's not a state sometimes they're associated with the states sometimes they are not associated with the state but you you do clearly have these forms of very strong Allegiance very strong cultural identity despite Independence of the actual

territory uh and yet having instances of those um of those Nationals if we want to call it like religious Nations um that actually emerge a little bit everywhere in the world so I'm not saying this is the best example to follow but this is clearly an interesting case study to explore uh in order to understand well what would a non-religious alternative uh look like and is there any such thing already um I think there's also something interesting to distinguish between uh movements so there is like we do have digital and Global movements around the world I think a movement is not yet uh a

combination because it's it's it's too broad right there is there is like shared values but there is not this recognition of a shared Collective identity right and um and again I I don't know if religion has that threshold uh because sometimes you can have different types uh different nations that share that are part of the same movement but do not actually recognize themselves as a whole and I think the naming and the recognition of this entity as a particular cultural entity that people can uh recognize themselves as being part of and provide allegiance to is an important component um and and again I think that I think

that the territory the the the the ground is very fertile for that and and my personal interest in actually bringing about this alternative meme is because I think that if only the concept actually gets spread around maybe a lot of things that today are not acting and are not recognizing themselves as a combination might actually become one because I think there is a lot of community that are close to turning into a combination but the the lack of the concept the lack of the vocabulary and the for the lack of the conceptualization of this as a combination then reduce them to a digital Community to a movement or to just like you know a type without really

exercising more effort into actually becoming a combination there's actually really a good segue into my next question which is what does the world look like in which you're maximally successful say you meme coordinations into the the universe and they start to pop up I don't know let's say 10 years from now 2033 uh what is the world in which uh this movement is maximally successful look like yeah I think it's uh to me um it's a place in which the uh I don't know if in English you have the same expression in French we call it the third sector which is like the literally the Civic sector which is a place in which people recognize that it is possible to coordinate and to manage

these things together uh without having to rely on the public infrastructure of the states and also without having to rely on a market infrastructure and and there is obviously a lot of small um law often local communities that are actually engaging in those things but we haven't reached the level in which those Community uh grasp at the global level uh there is this very beautiful concept that mission balance have been working on for many years now that is called Cosmo localism which is pretty much like so it's about local but Cosmo Cosmo Cosmopolitan but not in terms of like

globalization whatever is one thing that takes over the world they will um the world domain but had Federation of local entities that that share those particular values and actually manage to have a global impact because they are connecting with each other and to me in like in a success story will be that because of this meme uh instead of trying to uh create enclaves of uh I will put it very blunt in terms of like enclaves of libertarianism uh where you have people that want to escape from the states uh for good bad reasons doesn't matter but really like

oneself out of the state uh what I'm what are what I think success will be is rather that we do have more interconnection and uh and having all those local communities and digital communities that identify that they have something in common in terms of the societal values and then find ways true digital Technologies are or not but find ways to coordinate themselves better so that they provide a valuable and sustainable alternative to the existing public infrastructure and to the existing private infrastructure and for me like if we manage it I I don't think I don't want the Civic sector to take

over right I don't think I don't think that should be only that but I think that today is like a strong dominance between public and private and there is not enough energy and attention given to Disturbed sector that is the Civic sector that is the commons based sector and I think if only we could recognize that many things are actually possible if we have the right coordination mechanism and if we have the right governance structure for this coordination and for this management of collective resources then a lot of things could could be done in a more fine-tuned manner uh and the composability that comes with that I think will lead to very interesting

outcome that are very difficult to imagine right now because right now we are the the public infrastructure is very monolithic into a particular territory the marketing is global but it's very market-based and individualistic um and I'm very curious and I'm very eager to pass throughout the direction in order to see like what will the composable Civic sector oriented towards common based infrastructure and Collective management would look like yeah it's crazy it's quite interesting um I yeah I'm curious to hear the feedback to

this episode here what kind of um what kind of ideas and and uh movements this this stimulates and uh if there's any way that people can help uh you build this Meme and build this movement so um my next question is actually not about coordinations at all I want to ask you about your side project but is there anything I didn't ask about coordinations that you want to say um yeah maybe just like one small thing because I think it's important especially for the blockchain the blockchain community um I think there is something interesting that the like I think the internet has enabled the the world they were incredible new domain of

digital communities and global global interconnection and so forth which is exceptional um I I want to I want to add why I think that uh the combination is relevant to the blockchain and why is the blockchain relevant to the combination which is about because we don't want to exit right we don't want to exit and yet the combination wants to have some stronger um feeling of self-determination and an actual sovereignty and and the interesting thing about the blockchain is that because you add those new layers of sovereignty with an infrastructure that is actually transcending the the

national boundaries but it's transcending International bundle is a little bit more than the internet because nowadays unfortunately the internet is actually very geographically Bound by those large online operators that are pretty much controlling the majority of the traffic on the internet and so with a blockchain infrastructure you can actually create systems and coordination system and governance systems that are that do not um do not belong to Any Given State and also that cannot be affected by them while of course the state still has jurisdiction over the people using the systems right so it's not about it's not about escaping regulation it's not about like

um running away from the state sovereignty but it's about creating systems that actually have their own sovereignty and the homes of Hunty is based on the governance that the combination will figure out for the systems and so whether it's about creating currencies whether it's about creating credentials attestations digital passport whatever whatever you want to do those are interesting components that can can that can really become self-sovering while while coexisting with existing sovereignties of jurisdictional based States right and to me this is where the blockchain actually really brings something new that was not as easy to do before uh because before it was difficult to

create additional layer of sovereignty without those new layer of sovereignty also being bound to existing Territorial sovereences and the blockchain actually opened this new window towards actually creating transnational and at territorial layers of of sovereignty and uh and I think the combination as we are trying to um design them can benefit immensely from from like if they really want to be self-determinated and self-sovereign they need to also have a technological infrastructure that is equally self-determinated and self-sovereign um

I think that uh this is a really good segue into my last question which is just a fun uh a fun question and um I wanted to show off to the audience that uh you're not just into meta governance and in blockchain governance but you're actually uh a blockchain hacker yourself so uh with with that Preamble I'm wondering if you can tell us about plantoid which it says in my notes is a blockchain based life form yes um so maybe I can I can uh bring it close so for those of us who are watching on video we're uh seeing Prima showing us her her living room which has a lot of real plants but there's actually a uh a digital blockchain based uh life-form

plant that's glowing for the audio listeners and the video listeners will be able to see it the planter this actually is one of the one of my early attempts of using artistic practice as a way of actually illustrating my research uh and because I pretty much dedicated all my research to blockchain and Davos and uh and new governance structures then the plantar is actually a physical representation of how you can interact with something that is actually incarnating the Dao in the physical world so I can I can describe it here so here you can see uh this little creature it's like it's mostly made of chains uh of so it's a blockchain plant and um essentially you can the the whole point

of a planted is to reproduce itself um so like any other life form uh it's uh it's time to figure out how to collect resources in order to ensure its own reproduction and so I planted uh just like many plants is not capable of reproducing itself on its own and it requires so traditional plant I need like bees or butterflies and plant eyes they need humans and they rely on the capitalization process so what you can do with those plantars is you can fit them with crypto and when you feed them um I can try to make a little demo but I don't have this speaker but I can play with the headphones so when you feed

them uh they start playing music and uh passive I don't know if you can hear yeah we can hear a kind of a pulsating cyber plant sound so uh for those of us who are listening on audio what Prima is doing is pointing her camera at The Plant toy which is kind of this growing blockchain plant form and we're going to send a transaction on Gorly that's going to cause the plant to play some music and light up is that right uh you can then interact with the plants with those little uh those little sensors and so you can modulate the music and then at the end the amount you

pay the longer is the period in which you can play the music and then at the end of the period uh the music that you have created is Minted as an nft and is sent back to the address that actually has send the money and then this nft becomes the seed of the planted and uh um and so whenever the seed is being disseminated by the people uh there is like the royalty so ten percent is sent back to the plantoid and so the plantar is accumulating Capital the more seeds are created and the more seeds are sold up to the point in which the planted as accumulated enough Capital to reproduce itself and then it's like the standard

Dao model so there is a open call for proposals people can submit propositions about how they want to create the next version of the plantoid and then all the people that all old that own a seed of the planter all the people that have purchased the nft they can vote on The Proposition that they like the most and then the plant oil automatically will hire um the proposed winner the the one that submitted the the submission that got selected and that will that person will be hired to create a new physical plantoid that will become part of the descendancy of the plantoid species right

um one of the things that I just think it's so cool is is like when people have all these theories and and try to create a movement by by like thought leadering it's one thing it's like a priori knowledge theoretical knowledge but then you get a certain amount of value from just experimenting and tinkering and empirical uh knowledge and what I what I like about you Prima is that you're just coming at it from both ends as a hacker but also as someone who's involved in theorizing about governance and and that's how you learn and you move forward so um plantoid as itself is an interesting experiment but you know I'm interested in as you're building coordinations over the next 10 years what kind of interesting iot type of uh infrastructure you're gonna you're gonna build for them and what kind of

experiments are going to come out too yeah I think I'm a I'm a frustrated academic because I love it and I love research but at the same time uh sometimes there are things that are just too there are opportunities that are too amazing and it's very difficult to just stay stuck into the academic uh real and so somehow you know art is a very good way of actually expressing those Concepts in a way that is more accessible uh but also like you know just trying to get things done and trying to move uh the to move in the direction in which I believe those opportunities can actually have an

impact I think it's very important yeah well what a what a great place to end um is there anything that I didn't ask that or that you want to show off with plenty before we wrap um I think I think we're good okay well uh Prima I'm really excited about what you're doing I think that you're creating an interesting discussion about networks I haven't gotten into all the other great stuff that you've done in the ecosystem but thank you for coming on greenpill uh you're an inspiration you're to me and I know many others in the space are looking forward to seeing how everything grows over the next several years yeah thanks a lot thanks Prima peace [Music]