$BMNR's Tom Lee x Mr. Beast, Messy DC, Mando Calls In, Summer.fi on HyperEVM, AI Supercycle

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[music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's just [music] it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. [music] You said it. Finally said it is boys. I'm bull. We're boys. [music] [music] I'm [music] about the >> [music]

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[music] Corola is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. We're on fourth floor today. We're going to be on floor one and then we're headed straight to the moon, boys. [applause] >> Hey, why don't why don't you vote yes on Bit Miner shareholder proposal and send this thing higher? What do you say? >> Tom Lee is going to send this thing higher. Let's get right into it, guys. We got Mando coming up in a in a couple minutes. Let's get straight into this. Johnny, our guy Tom Lee is ready to go. >> Tom Lee is ready. The guys in DC, they don't know what they're doing. And Tom Lee is gonna take over. It's Tom Lee's revenge arc.

>> Tom Lee needs to get this dub. >> Tom Lee is going straight to the big guns, investing 200 million into Mr. Beast, none other than [laughter] the man himself. >> Mr. Beast. Man, I I saw this this morning. I did not know what to make of it. I've been wrestling with this all day. I'm still confused. I'm still trying to make sense of why Tom Lee, the largest shareholder of ETH, has invested $200 million into Mr. Beast. All I've heard is conspiracy theories all day.

>> Conspiracy theories? Really? >> Yes. Wow. I'm bullish. I'm so bullish. Dude, we have to have this vote pass or God knows what's going to happen. >> I'm curious. What What do you think here? Like there's >> Well, let's get a bit more detail. It's either this tweet or the other one that that has a scroller. If it's the other one, let's just pop to the other one. Um, and and let's get some more detail on on the thread here because there is there is some more detail. If not, I can just read it out. Basically, I think we kind of got a um an opportunity for ETH to get mass adoption here um in terms of mind share. So, Mr. Beast is the number

one content creator in the world. He's central to the lives of uh Gen Z, millennials, etc. Bit mine has targeted 5% of its balance sheet to invest in moonshots. So basically, this sets the stage for a future synergistic collaboration between Fund Sheret, which is uh Tomlin's company, and Bit Miner and Mr. Beast. Um the Beast Industries CEO Jeff Henbull said, "We are excited to welcome Tom Lee and Bitmine as new investors in Beast Industries joining our current top tier investors. Their support is a strong validation of our vision, strategy, and growth trajectory. And it provides additional capital to achieve our goal

to become the most impactful entertainment brand in the world. Um, man, we look forward to exploring ways to collaborate and incorporate DeFi into our upcoming financial services platform. Uh, this first moonshot uh was 20 million into uh ATK, which owns 5% of Worldcoin. So, Tom Lee owns a ton of Worldcoin. And now Mr. Beast with $200 million. So, total $220 million invested into these moonshots. The shareholder meeting is live at 400 PM Eastern today. This vote is massively important to all ETH holders. I think it's going to go through. I'm bullish on this and I'm stoked. I think Tom Lee is running an absolutely insane playbook. And if you

guys remember, Michael from Framework said that Tom Lee has a one a I think it was a six figure is a billion dollar uh call position. Six figure notional size. So like a 100,000 ETH or more in that position. uh gonna be absolutely insane. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um the strongest take that I've heard on why Tom Lee decided to go into Mr. Beast Industries is because uh this is a onboarding flywheel that could take effect and spur customer acquisition for a lot of the DeFi apps on Ethereum uh and and Ethereum in general. Obviously, Mr. Vis has

tremendous uh distribution and somehow embedding uh whether it be uh digital collectibles like we saw Reddit and we saw we saw NFTTS. Mr. Beast also has a video game. There's obviously onchain opportunities when it comes to video games. I I I tend to think that this is um an infrastructure play where Mr. Beast will continue to launch multiple businesses around his core distribution and those could live on ETH in some way, shape or form. Obviously, all of this is very opaque. We don't know exactly how this is going to play out just yet, but if you combine all of the financial opportunity that takes place on ETH with massive distribution in Mr. Beast, this is the recipe and you can kind of see

how how positive uh effects could come about from this. >> Most definitely. Most definitely. Um, yeah, man. I mean, look, mi, Mr. Beast is like the the epitome of um basically creators going viral and going into the biggest um like landscape of of people. Like, he literally took a YouTube channel and into an Amazon Prime show. Like, it's insane what he's done in the last, you know, what couple uh couple of years really. So >> it's interest it's interesting to just just to say on on media in the current the current state of media is is absolutely true like Mr. Beast is going

from uh a permissionless open platform in YouTube for for the most part permissionless obviously there's some censorship but then taking that into Amazon. You have multiple podcasts that are following suit and going from YouTube in independent uh independent creators that are then getting monetized and getting bought and acquired into an exclusive platform like Netflix, like Spotify, like Hulu. And there's multiple uh ne uh bar stool podcasts are going exclusive on Netflix very soon. Kill Tony's another great podcast that that is now on Netflix. So look, this is going to continue to happen and I think Mr. Beast is leading the way and there's going to be creators that continue to to

diverge and land these exclusive agreements. Uh and I think that's the state of media. I think that's a trend to watch in 2026. >> I agree. All right. Shout out to Tom Lee. Good luck today, buddy. Uh, hope you're going to crush it. Um, and wishing you the best. Let's move on from you, Tom Lee. Keep it up, brother. Let's go. >> All right, what do we got here? We got Coinbase opposing the Senate push on crypto rules. Brian Armstrong with a viral tweet. After reviewing the Senate banking draft for the last 48 hours, Coinbase unfortunately cannot support the bill as written. Too many issues. a de facto ban on tokenized equities, DeFi prohibitions, erosion of the CFTC CFTC's authority, which of of course we do not

want that. We want uh the CFTC to be regulating crypto, not the SEC. And really, guys, I think the biggest one is the draft amendments that would kill rewards on stable coins, allowing banks to ban their competition. And so I put out a tweet yesterday on this that I thought was particularly preient, which was um basically saying that banks are literally trying to prohibit um the like they're trying to prohibit stable coins from passing on yield to to their users. Um I said that if you are a DeFi power user, you have to be on Brian's side.

You want to see this market structure bill get passed before the midterm elections where it's looking like a Democrat title wave and a potential sweep of both the House and the Senate. This would be this would give us far less bargaining power as an industry and leverage for certain measures from the Republican side. Many of us are really one issue single issue voters in crypto and I expect this to continue to be the case. I frankly could care less about politics at all. I'm obviously 26. I don't have children. I don't have a wife. I don't really have even a home. I I don't really care about what happens in the political space outside of uh moral judgment and crypto being my main priority as a zoomer in the space. So guys, if you're like me, you really

could care less what happens with Trump and all this garbage old boomer politicians who just say things, lie, and do all these things that gecko people do. But guys, if you're a single issue voter like me, you want to see coin. You you are happy that Brian Armstrong stood his ground here and did not put a bad bill through. H look, we're going to get Cody Carbone, leader of the digital chamber of commerce on the show tomorrow for a Neo Finance special. I'm excited to hear his take because I think it differs from Brian Armstrong's take. Um, obviously, you know, Brian is of the mind that a bad bill is uh worse than no bill and he's okay with no action. Uh, we got an email from Cody this morning that said,

"Hey, this should have gone through. Inaction is is unacceptable and we have to continue to push this through." Um, I think it depends on on which compartments. Obviously, there's so much that's all bundled together in this bill. I wish we could separate this out uh so that the good parts could go through. But I think there are good parts to this bill uh in defining some rules of the road when it comes to centralized exchanges when it comes to uh defining what is a securities token. And again just to reiterate something from last stream defining that some tokens are securities is okay. Some of these uh stable coins that are paying yield are the definition of securities and that's okay. They should just be

disclosed as such. Other tokens are more commodities or network tokens. There should be a carveout for those. Everyone seems to be in agreement on those definitions and on those rules of the road. Then we have some more contentious parts of this bill around stable coins and the banking lobbies obviously coming after that. Uh those are the parts that I think should be held back, but I'd love to see the good parts put through. I think it's interesting if you if you do look at the politics of this and you say, "Hey, you know who the the banks are in some of these guys' pockets, right?" And when you see politicians defending banks, the natural reason is is why. Like the only explanation is that you're getting paid from these banks. And I just think, you know, it

it's it's interesting to for that information to come about so that you can understand where everyone's interests lie, where their friends are, because everyone's playing to their incentives. And if I see someone defending the banking lobby when clearly there's innovation and there's a clear path to to paying five, six, seven basis points, more of a basis point, but the banks pay and lobby the politicians. I saw this some of the politicians are getting paid from the banks. Other politicians are getting paid from the crypto lobby. And and I think, you know, it's important to just see who is in whose pockets. Dude, I literally talked to Will, our local uh in on the ground DC representative um yesterday and he

said that the banks have this massive lobbying committees are massive lobbying committees that can get a lot done and that have way more capital and expertise on the hill compared to, you know, any sort of like DeFi group. And then we had this uh uh Dragonfly uh associate put out this tweet yesterday that I'm looking for that I responded to and and it was absolutely embarrassing embarrassing how the banks um it was literally the CEO let me find it was it was the CEO of Bank of America. So here it goes CEO of Bank of America literally is saying that um uh consumers shouldn't earn yield so banks can. interest on stables is going to cause a mass deposit

flight. Fully reserved money is not banks don't get the fractional leverage that that that they use to create their system and then banks lose free funding from these people and then the profits go bye-bye. I mean this is happening one way or another the snowball is going to go and uh I mean look that's the reality. So all right guys let's move on from this. This was huge. Shout out to Eleanor Tourett. We got more to cover on this side after the guests today or in between. So stay tuned on some more uh political coverage here and um yeah let's let's hop over the neo finance category. I mean come on guys this convergence is happening. Neo finance is a new category. We've gotten

some push back about the name about the hype doesn't matter. Tomorrow is gonna be massive. Tomorrow you are all about to realize what Neo finance is, why this is the most important category in the entire space. And this this this graphic from Emperor, OSMO does an incredible job of showing why. You've got DeFi on one side, you've got legacy finance on the other, dexes, stable coins, vaults, yield farming, bitcoin, oracles, aggregators on on the legacy side, you've got metals, bonds, payroll, stocks, t bills, compute, asset managers, credit cards, insurance, and guess what you got right in the middle?

You've got the protocols that you want to bet on. You've got Sky, Chain Link, AR Canton M0 Morpho USDA Plasma Pendle Paxos Athena Daylight Ether Redstone Polygon Stripe Spark. It's happening, guys. It's happening. We'll also have Maple. Uh we'll have Sid from Maple come on the show tomorrow. Uh very firmly within this NEO finance category. Look, the banks are scared. I think there is a bigger conversation to have around the capital flight that could could come out of banks um and come onchain. But I think we need robust regulation in order for fractional reserve banking to still take place but

take place onchain and take place safely because imagine if all our money had to be collateralized. Imagine if it all had to be backed one to one. What are we going to go back in the gold standard? That would that would crash markets all the way abysmally down to zero. You [clears throat] don't want that to happen. We don't want that to happen. We want money to be onchain, but it's going to take it's going to be slowly but surely as an integration process and there's going to have to be regulation as a part of it. And so it's going to start with this representative RWA class. If you go to RWAXYZ, you know, we heard from Bartik yesterday, this isn't the best distinction, but it is something. And it shows which tokenization protocols are tokenizing things directly on chain. And then what

is using the blockchain as an accounting layer simply representing this illustration of what is actually held somewhere else like the DTCC. This is you know people are going to have a problem with this in the short term. I tend to think that it is still bullish in the long term as a stepping stone ultimately to get to a more composable open permissionless blockchain world where all of these are interoperable together. But I realize that in the meantime uh this poses a problem for the existing suite of blockchain based finance. Uh, I tend to think that this is going to continue to happen, but again, we need to have an integration path that does not shock the existing financial system. We want to

carry over all of the credit and allow blockchain to unleash more credit. That's what we're looking for here, more credit, credit creation, and allow the credit multiple to take place so that your bags, my bags, everyone's bags go to Valhalla inshallah. Man, I remember um back in DeFi summer, all we wanted was more credit to keep this thing going. Unfortunately, we did not get it. Um but uh we were all looking for the next undercolateralized leverage protocol to come about.

>> Well, I'll tell you the best underolateralized leverage protocol is your local regional bank that they're the ones that are writing loans and when they get when they get federal funding and then they can multiply that money. Arthur Hayes, I must say, phenomenal piece uh called frowny cloud yesterday talks through how US is now performing this unilateral uh basically this go to market strategy for winning that China does on a five-year plan. US is now doing uh with Trump. It it I they're they're basically saying these are the sectors that we want to win and it makes financing these industries extremely easy because when you have a topdown

approach, Trump says, "Hey, we want oil, we want AI, we want minerals." Right? All you have to do is you just have to if you're one of the a company in that industry right? >> You go to JP Morgan and he's giving you the green light to buy Uh we've got a a demand. We've got proven demand. We've got basically an order from the US government that says, "Hey, please build this." There is a demand floor and that makes financing that when JP Morgan goes and looks at, hey, are you sure you're going to sell all these and be able to repay the loan that we give you to build this all out? Yeah. Because the US government is going to buy it straight from us. And so it makes loaning out that money extremely easy. Um, and it

and it creates a much much uh faster velocity of capital for banks to ultimately lend out that money, credit multiples from there. It's obviously faster to credit creation. I think we could finance. >> I think we could see GDP print five, six%. >> And I know Andy's fired up about Neo Finance. I think there's an extreme integration process that's happening. If we do get five, six% GDP growth and we have a lot of efficiency gains from legacy finance joining blockchain rails. Yep. The whole world goes Neo. >> I love it. I love it. All right, guys.

Moon off from Neo Finance. Tomorrow's got a huge stream for Neo Finance. So, guys, stay tuned for that. Drink your Celsius. Get your caffeine in there. Let's Let's keep this thing rolling. Oh, the spicy tweet from the Mega ETH competitor RIP. Who's getting his butthole ripped a new one in the comments on this one, by the way. Uh, the top three mega apps are launching elsewhere, cap to Ethereum, noise to base, GTE to app chain. What does that mean for Mega, Rob? What does that mean for Mega? To me, it signals that these apps were incubated by Mega ETH. They were able to grow. um they had

significant traction and then at some point they kind of grew up out of their out of their kind of adolescent phase or ready to go live and for some reason either couldn't strike a deal with mega eth didn't want to pay them more or the team wanted to get a had a better offer from elsewhere saw more value in being elsewhere you just got to wonder like why leave me and like what does this mean for mega bags we are our fund is mega eth investors I'm a fluffle holder like at at a certain point you start to wonder like what is left on mega ETH. I I really really really want to see them win. But this is this is this is problematic.

I think we should remind our viewers about the app chain life cycle, the modular graduation from a smart contract on an L1 ultimately to an L2 and then launching your own app chain as you own your own block space. This is something that we saw play out uh in the modular thesis. We know that this is happening. Um and frankly, when you have an L1 that scales like Salana and ETH have scaled, what's the purpose of an L2? Greater throughput, new apps, a lot of this is becoming possible on the L1 again. And so I think again, it's all about the incentives.

You're on mute. Money is raining from the skies. And I I anticipate a lot more coming from this. It's the grants. >> It's the grants. And when the grants are up, you might Why not move, right? >> Oh, man. No, but I don't think Mega did crazy grants. They just incubated these teams so well and then these teams grow. They raise from Paradigm and then Paradigm just pulls them out of Mega E for some reason. >> You want to own your block space. >> Just weird, man. Just weird. >> I I wouldn't want to be an L2 these days. >> I don't know, man. An an app chain L2 is right where you want to be. I thought I I don't see why that's why a problem.

>> An app chain. Yeah. Is Mega ETH an app chain? No, they're general purpose fast throughput L2. >> Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, that is Mega ETH. I mean, we'll we shall see what comes of this. Uh it's definitely it's definitely a unique situation for them. Um and they're supposed to be mainet like this month and I think people are waiting for it and and we are all waiting for it. And so, um, yeah, guys, that's >> what is what is there to what is there to do on Mega if it's not GTE Noise cap?

>> Yeah. Yeah. I I I'm not sure, Rob. Um, they have the the stable coin product with Athena, >> right? >> Um, and they're going to have DeFi. >> Um, but you just it kind of makes you wonder. >> So, I think a lot of these L2s are going to follow in the footsteps of Polygon. I think uh you know we had uh Mark and we had John from uh from Polygon on yesterday um or maybe it was a couple days ago but you know they're explaining how they've verticalized the stack and they're becoming a payment super app. >> Look we also had Mike you know from Figure that told us hey super apps aren't everything that they're made out to be. You know there's a lot of DAPs out there and I want a wallet centric experience where I can use my wallet like a browser to browse all the DAPs

that are out there. So >> I I I think there's the barbell approach, you know, you've got wallets uh as the interface layer and then you've on the other end you've got DAPs, right? And uh a uh you know, Morpho, Athena, you've got you've got apps that are really really solid. As far as the blockchains that are in the middle, they're getting commoditized. And uh you know, not all block space is made equal, but I I do think that we're going to see a lot of chains um struggle to find a lot of apps to uh to stay home when building an app chain is so easy these days and it's so incentivizing.

Next up, we've got Mando. Always a good time to chat markets with Mando. Boys, I have been dialed. I've been surfing daily. I've been in the gym. Like, I feel great. I probably lost like eight pounds. Dude, I'm there's there's waves today. Like, I'm dialed right now. Like, full on. There's pull-up bars right outside my house. Been ripping those daily. Walking, surfing, running. I mean, dude, I am ready to rip. I am ready to rip. Let's go. All right, we got Mando in in the back. Let's get Mando up and let's get this party started.

Yo. >> Hey guys. >> How you doing? I like the energy, man. >> Always on this show. >> It's always connected, man. The health, the the the mental, the physical, the trading performance, it all comes together. >> Completely agree. Um I I generally have a pretty positive attitude, but uh if you start the day with some exercise, it's impossible to have a bad day in my opinion. >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Start off with a win. >> Yeah. >> Any any wins recently, Mando? You've been staying patient. You've been in. >> Man, the last time you were on, we you and I were both pretty bearehold and then I think that I think the markets kind of showed us up a bit.

>> I won that trading competition. >> I did see that on synthetics. >> What? Let's go >> being. Uh yeah, I won that trading competition. Um I am more bullish. I've actually got the the most long I've been in about eight months. Right. >> Same here, man. million-dollar prize on that competition, right? >> I know. Mine was the second second round uh with like I think it was 300 traders. >> Okay. >> Uh but it was only 250 or 200k I think it was. >> That's a reasonably sized house.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That paid for Christmas at the time. Um >> Oh my gosh. Would you buy buy your wife a Lambo, dude? Like >> talk to your wife about that. Come on. [laughter] let go straight away. Um [laughter] I honestly I took some time off last last week of last year. Um and yeah, I was just kind of wasting the screens. I came back to be honest. The first one I bought was Monero. Um >> just before it just like 450 area and I bought gold and I bought Google. Those are the three buys at the start of this year because they all look like they were breaking out towards alltime highs and then they they actually have just continued to go that way. And then about two days ago or yesterday was it? No,

two days ago when Bitcoin had that run to 94K, I'm like a bit of a breakout trader when it goes to the upside. So I was like this looks like it's going to break back up. I still think Bitcoin is going to go back up to uh 100K plus here. So I bought a bunch of ETH and I bought a bunch of Bitcoin. Um, today I've rotated a decent amount of that Bitcoin into ETH, but it's the most long I've been in a long time. >> Yeah, same here, man. I was very very cautious over the holidays. I I basically I don't know if you've done this before, guys, but uh doing a full clean wipe out of your entire portfolio.

I I just did it at the end of the end of 2025 for tax reasons just to clear all out all losses. I I had a long a lot of like long-term capital gains on like random NFTts too and like random tokens that I had held for so long um that I had gotten so early, but I was just like I don't really want to manage these any anymore. And so I basically clean slated my entire portfolio and it felt amazing. And so like I'm starting from a kind of like a new a new uh a new level. And yeah, Mando, same thing for me. I was just waiting. I was like there's no way I'm entering this position uh in the low 90s and the high 80s. because I just it's just not worth it for me from a personal stress perspective. I was

telling you I expecting lower. >> And then as soon as we got that first breakout, I remember I was like, Rob, a boy, they better give me one more chance. And then they gave us one more chance. And I just full stacked that that second chance there. >> Yeah. I think I mean I said this the last time I came on the show, like I'm a big fan of concentrated big bets. Um I don't like big long tales of positions and portfolios. Like I like to just look at one or two things and be very big in them when I think it's the right time. But that requires patience. Um, and I hadn't been I hadn't really bit owned Bitcoin ETH since we kind of broke below 100K. Um, so it's been a couple of months really where I kind of uh since I went back in and this time I've gone

much bigger than where I was even at 100K because I've been reducing before that. So I think this is good riskreward situation. This Clarity Act stuff doesn't I don't know if it's just posturing. Um, I still think there's a good chance they get they get a deal done this year at least. But that for me actually the reason why I rotated more into ETH today is because I think I think Bitmine's going to get this >> get this uh >> this vote done. Um, it's a good shot that at 9:30 I think my time, 4:30 p.m.

Eastern. >> Yep. >> They're going to do that vote and um >> they're going to increase the share class by a ton. So my gut is and that that's a that's a bet like I don't know I I asked Grock today about it and they were like yeah I think this will pass. >> Um and so then I just moved more of my bit and bit ETH was underperforming Bitcoin slightly and now it's seemingly coming back a bit. >> I think if they get that vote done you're just playing the technicals right. You're playing that you know Tom Le is about to to buy a ton. >> Yeah he is. And so, so, dude, we had um the framework guys on our show last week and they actually did a really deep dive into all of Bit's like basically public

disclosures. >> Interesting. >> And they came to realize that Tom Lee has a six figure Ethereum notional, >> so over 100,000 tokens, >> ETH in the money call options live and probably is selling puts and those trades are both on right now. And this is something that like you can't really figure out unless you like dive really deep. And so their thesis is that this that this goes through really outperforms the next couple weeks. And Tom Lee absolutely cashes in massively on this in the money call position of well over a 100,000 ETH like ETH ETH uh in in size. Um >> I know he's I know he's been doing that

because I he said it publicly. He even I met him in in um in Korea and he said he was putting on like we had like a dinner thing. Um that he's definitely using options. I have no idea about the size, but he's definitely using options and I think he's going to get this vote done, which um just puts it in a good position here for I mean that he can file a shelf for the amount that he wants to like it's a it's a good bull case for for him being the big buyer of E. So I like that trade right now in terms of majors. I don't really have anything else on apart from just a very very big ETH long right now. Same here actually. Just Bitcoin and ETH. We have some smaller like kind of like token positions, but I I I don't

feel confident in holding size in anything really other than those two at the moment. >> Yeah, because there's there's like a bit of you know, who knows what's going on on with Iran. It felt like a day or two ago like uh that was going to maybe flare up. Now it doesn't. But you just kind of want to own majors if that happens. Like the moment you got like Bitcoin moved down 1%, all the alts just got destroyed apart from ETH basically. Um, yeah. So, >> uh, yeah, I think I just market just seems like a good position. I I don't know if this is the return of a bull trend or anything, but I I just don't see how Bitcoin doesn't go to 100K.

>> Yeah, it feels like it's disbelief mode, dude. So, I'm in Hawaii and yesterday there was probably 25 fighter jets doing runs right around Pearl Harbor here, which also was the location where there was US um uh naval uh um ships taking off and heading towards the Middle East is what Poly Market said that they can be kind of propaganda-esque, but uh that they did put that out. And dude, yesterday was kind of spooky out here, guys. It was like wow. Like, you know, usually you get one fighter jet every couple weeks and it's like, "Holy crap, there's a F-36." It's like because you hear it first. It's like and then you look up and then, you know, guns by. It was like all afternoon yesterday. You

live there permanently? >> No, I'm just here for a month. A little bit of spiritual health, physical maxing. >> The best. Uh I I quit. When you leave investment banking, you you get like three months off. So, I I kind of maximize that and quit my job twice in my career in investment banking. And one of those I spent a lot of time on Hawaii. Um Maui, Maui, Pa Maui a month in Pa was great. And then uh yeah, Wahoo was fun. North Shore. >> Yeah, I'm on Aahu. I'm on the Southshore. >> Okay. Yeah, it's >> I'm actually >> Man, I'm jealous of you. I live >> I'm throwing a I'm throwing a health party this weekend. Have you ever heard of a health party?

>> No, but that that does sound amazing, man. Uh [laughter] >> no, the funny thing is you mentioned Framework. Framework, one of the partners, he doesn't know this. Uh his name is Michael Anderson which is my name and it's been the best opse for ever for me in crypto because you type that in crypto it always comes up with his name. So if he does well if any of my businesses do well I'm sorry Michael Anderson framework they're coming for you right [clears throat] [laughter] >> pretty good man. Yeah he's the one who who uh dug into the whole Bit mine call position.

>> Yeah yeah yeah. Oh no don't worry it all gets put on my feed as well. I I take recognition for all of his his comments as well. So, it's great. >> You might have to load up load up on more uh XMR. Load up on more Zcash if uh you know things go too well. >> I did annoying I did sell some of my XMR too early. Like I bought it for that breakout because I like buying things as they're going to break out towards alltime high and then I sold it at 590. I sold like 60 to 70% of it at 59. >> Um >> Yeah, man. I mean, >> it's a nice 25% rip.

>> Oh yeah. No, but it's one of these ones where like now it just looks like you can just go keep going and like don't know if you should get back in or not. >> Yeah, you look at like the silver fractal, guys, it looks pretty insane to to like look at the silver chart compared to XMR. It's quite a bit of it's like double the time frame, but it's insane the similarities on silver and XMR. >> To see something similar between Zcash and gold, right? Because in both cases, you have kind of the secondary to the first one that broke out, silver to gold obviously, and then XMR to Zcash. >> I don't know though, man. Zcash kind of seems cooked right now.

>> I read that Arthur piece. He said he was buying more. We'll see. >> Yeah, it feels like it feels like uh Monero's chat's in, right? Zcash left. Uh I I just I don't know. I like trading the volatility and which these once something breaks out to alltime high you could they always do like a 10% move down and you kind of get a chance to get in. I hope that we get I get a chance to get in back at like 650 and then I'll then I'll go back in big I reckon on Monero. >> Do uh do you do much like digging into um you know kind of the fundamentals at all? Are you mostly a technical analysis guy? Honestly, my background is is in fundamental analysis, but I I with

crypto, I find it easier just to buy things as they're about to break out to fulltime. I I like buying breakouts. So, like I'll have a fundamental thesis around the coin or around a theme and then um and then I I I'll look for when the chart kind of proves that that's going to be a good time to buy from a riskreward standpoint. I'm not a big fan of buying things catching falling knives or buying support or anything like that. I like to buy stuff as it's just at resistance and it looks like it's going to break through particularly for alltime high because then you know right now even this ETH position right I I like it but it's not one of my favorite sorts of trades like my favorite trades >> if ETH goes up I think it up like 10 20% whereas Monero went up like 30 to 50%

right >> and that's because it hit an alltime high and then it goes into price discovery and who the hell knows where it where it then goes so um this for me with the ETH trade is just that I just think uh this this Bitmind thing will now uh be a good momentum driver. >> Yeah, we shall see guys. We're about an hour and a bit out. Um Manda, one thing that I wanted to throw your your way today outside of the ye 1.3 billion milestone which huge congratulations for that. I mean you guys are just absolutely just firing. So >> congratulations there man. um is Yohoo comes out and says, "I'm sunsetting yaps in introducing Kaido Studio." Um we had Nikita Beer come out today and said that

they are fully disincentivizing all infoi and that is effectively going to be banned from the platform. Um I you know crypto Bobby Rob from uh the recruiting firm put out a tweet today interacting with your internet friends on crypto Twitter without some fake Pudgy Penguin spewing GPT40 mini slop in the mentions. Did did X just solve? So So in the midst of the my tweets aren't getting shown to anyone, this algorithm is cooked last week to X banning Infoi, did did the algorithm did X just execute the most bullish turnaround in a week's time because like Moon o overlord is screaming at Nikita Beer on the timeline? Like what the hell just happened? And are you bullish that Infoi

is finally over? >> I So there's two questions. I I think it was really good to see that uh X did that. I think that um CT is one of the strongest communities on on Twitter. Like also it's one of the wealthiest um at times it is uh but it also defines it seeps into like the finit or so community and like these are core bits of um of Twitter so or X. So I think it's really good that they did this. I think they probably were left with this issue of just like there's just so much slop. So what do we either do? We either decrease crypto as a thing in the space so it doesn't ruin it for everyone else

um in terms of the algorithm or and they tried that and then everyone who isn't at power user was like this is terrible and then they went the other way and go right we just have to get rid of we have to improve improve the quality of it. So I think this is this is smart. We've used ka in the past before. Um I spoke to him briefly uh Yohoo um last week uh and said that they at the time he said that they were planning on pivoting into uh Tik Tok and and uh Instagram, but I never actually got on the call with him in the end, but I don't know how long ago they knew about this, but he was talking about that last week. So, I'm I'm sure they got some sort of an

indication this this this could uh they needed to shift away from from X. Um uh so I don't know like I I do think that uh the reason for the original reason for info if you remember was because we had all these influencers basically just dumping on their followers and it was like right let's create an incentive system for people who are writing good commentary and actually are alpha alpha bringers to the to the case and that those first like couple months few months of info I really felt like yeah it was promoting the right people and I

was like wow it's really cool to see that people that I respect are at the top of these leaderboards and then it just became this weird world of just farming and crypto we can't have nice things when there's money attached to them and we just ruin them in crypto so I I think it it got started with the right um reasons and then it just kind of spiral into something which no one really wanted. I think they were even aware of it like their original aims about what this was turn turning into what it it it became. I think maybe it's good for them to have a bit of a refresh.

>> They And you're on mute there, but I I think that's a good take. I think uh you know there was so much slop. We all saw it in in the replies on Twitter. Um and uh it it you know didn't drive a lot of substance. I think for so long it was you know the idea that you could pay for attention pay for mind share and there was always the idea of smart followers I think was one of the more beneficial parts of the platform but it didn't seem to drive anything tangible on the other side aside from kind of just reshaping public perception.

>> Yeah. I mean, >> so you got >> it was no more only fans models laring as crypto bros bullish is in the chat. >> Yeah, exactly. I think I think it's going to be nice to get back to this like core. It's not it's not even like the tourists are leaving. It's like the bots are leaving and that I think everyone kind of get behind that. Um, so a better discourse. Hopefully this is like a 180 for for crypto Twitter. It was funny how prices started to go higher the moment they started to to change make those changes. Um maybe we do just need to be speaking to each other more.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um Mendo, let's talk about we guys got a couple minutes. Um you you guys hit this $ 1.3 billion milestone. What is where's [clears throat] most of this volume coming from? What are the most popular um like app like uh games on Yeets? How how how are you seeing this grow, man? I mean 1.3 billion seems like a lot. I feel like from from your perspective, you're you're probably kind of like, dude, this is gonna get 10 billion. Like, where where are we at? >> It is growing just insane amounts. So, I I think our first month in April, we did 40 million of volume and then last month we did just over 200. So, we 5xed the business in about seven months, eight months. Um the revenues up about 10x since then. Um

>> wow. Now, these businesses like the top line is can be kind of meaningless because you have so many costs all the way down and and uh that's just the the world of growing a a casino or and a sports book. But yeah, we I think it's a mix of things. I think honestly there has been a bit of a sea change I felt like in the in the feeling about casino style products. Maybe that was with and sports books with with like the move to prediction markets. But I think if you look at like the percentage winners across meme coins, NFTTS, um, sports books, prediction markets, and casinos, they're not that much different. Like you have like 5% winners and everyone else is kind of losing.

Prediction markets is actually slightly higher, but the liquidity is often very difficult. So you can't do it in like massive size. I think prediction markets you get like 10 to 15, but memecoins is like 1% of wallets win. Um uh so so I think there's this idea that right people are actually just here to try and make more money and like is it is it easier to make money on meme coins than just like doing a doing a dice roll at 50/50? Like we we have 50% basically house sorry um 49 and a half% versus 50 and a half% our edge is like 1% on some of these games. So you can just like if you're just here to actually just make a 2x and you were like in your mind that's kind of what you were here to do. I think people are like, "Okay, well then maybe I'll just

do that at a casino or I'll just own Bitcoin and I'll do that as my DGEN thing on the side, you know." Uh, so there's been a bit more of a product market fit there. And then also, I think they had a terrible reputation in terms of the owners and and how they operated. Like if you search any of these sites, it's always, oh, they lock my funds or these guys are scammers or >> Yeah, man. I mean, I don't I don't know if you saw Drake and stake with uh Aiden Ross getting the RICO charges on class action. >> It's it's all of this sort of stuff. So we tried to do his stuff just a bit different. Like the other co-ounder is Ben Lamb. He's like a top 30 all-time winner of poker tour and poker winnings.

Someone who was relevant 15 years ago and still winning poker tournaments like today. And then myself and keyboard monkey who I think people know just from like a trading perspective and that's helped. So you get like a lot of you get a lot of like big um you get a lot of big big kind of people VIP sort of people that like come in and just like like have a conversation. But it's been a mix like we have building like a bunch of custom games bunch of poker games that have come out recently. We've done really well. That's about 30% of our volume. 10% is a sports book which we launched two months ago, but KBM wants to take that to like the moon because his background is really in sports. And then the rest is like normal um casino style table games. But I mean, you you

only obviously I can't like disclose the people and the sizes, but people swing it. [laughter] Let me put it that way. >> I bet. Six figures on on dice rolls and things. >> Oh my god. Like >> insanity. >> Yeah, the variant some on some days is just like absolutely insane. >> Um Chad says Rubet got charged also, right? I think so. I think they got I think they they got like semi-charged. They were apparently like advertising to kids on CS:GO. Like a lot of this came from the gaming community. So if you know with the many of the big like do you really see stake in this space that often? They don't really sponsor anyone on CT, right? Rubet don't really either.

Like a lot of these are not really crypto brands. They're actually like casino brands which then use uh they use crypto as the payment rails. Well, we've kind of tried to build this as right, you know us. We're going to try and build this. If you're gambling, gamble. I'm not going to tell anyone that it's going to be an investment advice or anything like that, but if you if you are, then come try out the site. We have a sports book casino. Um, and we we also have like this whole community style aspect of it. So, we did like big moments uh last month. We did 50 million of volume and it's it's kind of like a whole community tournament thing. Um, we've we've had a lot of success there.

So, I don't know. Blue sky thinking, let's let's see how far we can build this. Um, >> this is this is how >> sorry, this is how I got into the space originally. Um, I was a poker player. I used to play poker in high school and I would leave school to go to a casino like 10, 15 minutes away and play poker, fake ID, the whole thing. And like my buddy was like, "Hey, you're being an idiot. Like, stop leaving school to go play poker. Just play poker online with Bitcoin." I was like, "What's Bitcoin?" And then got some, deposited, started playing poker online. And I just realized that, you know, the house had an edge and I was able to, you know, kind of figure out this altcoin thing and markets maybe had better odds than, you know, this casino that had a pretty

significant rake. But at this point, it is so difficult to discern, especially in the memecoin trencher world, what coins are going to run. It's basically a dice roll. And we saw the numbers that came out a couple months ago that compared, you know, how many coins and how many traders were in profit. Um, and it was much much worse odds than a casino. Casino gave you much better odds, especially if you guys aren't taking much of a rake and the odds are really close to 50/50. That is pretty good when it comes to someone who is thinking about, you know, am I going to sports sports bet? Am I going to go to a casino? Am I going to play poker?

or am I going to, you know, take a big swing on an altcoin? You don't get much better than 50/50. >> I think that's the the thing. Like, how many times have you bought a coin and been like, "If it 2xes, I'll get out." Right? That's a Yeah. >> As a meme coin, right? And you're like, "Look, I I'm buying this at 10. If it goes to 20, I'll sell some." Like, you're basically trying to get a 2x and your odds of doing that are often horrific. where and like if I'm not saying again this is not an investment thesis but if you actually know that that's all you're trying to do you're just trying to do a 2x and you're trying to buy a memecoin that somebody just put in a group chat like you you're going to lose way more than 5050. Uh so so I

think that's been the slight difference that people who are are just admitting that and being like look I I want to be in crypto. I like being part of the community. I want to have a bit of a DGM bag. Uh I want to bet on a sports game or I want to bet on just a 50-50 coin flip now and again. Uh sometimes the odds are right there so it it can be better. >> Yeah. >> Um last thing for you from me about the markets. You mentioned you don't know if this is going to go to alltime highs. You don't know what you know you're expecting 100K. >> I I was pretty in I was in pretty like firm disbelief mode. I I think I think the market's still there. it it's still in a weird spot right now where like if you've been sidelined, you do not want

to buy here because it feels like you're just buying the, you know, bare market rally. And al also I I saw this tweet from uh Gamchan who was basically saying that like because everyone's expecting the 40-year cycle that like as as as Bitcoin kind of slowly climbs up and starts to kind of like break that logic, there's just going to be like these incremental buyers that have to, you know, re-enter, you know, at the same price or higher or, you know, lower if they really sold high. I mean, I guess like the question is like four year cycle question mark. Like is is can we effectively retire this or like if we turn around here, are we going to feel really dumb for saying this time is different? What's your take on like like the state of disbelief and

kind of how the sentiment is affecting your psychology and just generally investor psychology? Now >> look, what I've quickly found about CT is that you can find whatever view you want to find. And sometimes the views that you find are often the complete opposite the right view you want to find. So I'm much when I put on a trade, it's much more based around my own personal view plus the chart. Um, right now for me the riskreward on Bitcoin here is that it it either breaks down below 944K and we kind of have a reversal there of which you can have a stop loss at 94K which is a one and a half% move or it's going to go up to 100K and I think there's a decent chance then goes up to like 106K. So right

there you've got a trade which is basically a 1% down trade versus a four to 5% up trade. Like I look at trades like that all the time. I think right now on ETH it's a slightly better trade because I think that the downside move there is more like 3,200 where you can have a stop loss and then your upside actually I think it go all the way to 4K. So um just and then just ignore because you could search and find whatever the hell you want about whether it's a fouryear cycle or if Gamma Chan's right or if Anom's right or if Trade Man's right. It does not matter. Look at the trade. Look at the riskreward of the trade. If it works out, it works out. If not, you know, you've you put on the right trade with the right riskreward.

>> Mando, man, wishing you the best on this balls deep e-long. >> We're on the ride with you, buddy. >> Thanks for joining us today, man. See you soon. >> Thanks, man. >> All right, buddy. Cheers, man. >> All right, we'll do a uh we'll do a quick commercial. I'm just glad to hear that he's bullish on ETH like us because uh that is my heavy like ETH is my heavier allocation right now compared to Bitcoin. Um this Tom Lee thing today is huge guys. We are going to be streaming it today. We're going to have a short AI um episode today with our our guys uh from Lrange and then we're gonna quickly rotate into Tom Lee is full cowboy mode today. We'll see if Rob's okay with

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All right. All right. All right. We've got Chris Bradbury and Jordan Jackson, the Summerfi team, co-founder, CEOs, yield aggregation, Hyper EVM launch. Big day today. Um, Hyper Core, Hyper EVM. Her liquid is obviously dominating the per landscape. Summerfy is one of the biggest sleepers in Neo Finance. Uh, a a category that just continues to grow. Guys, let's get the Summerfi team up live. Continue this stream. Big day today. Bit mine shareholder meeting is on. Will ETH pump is the question. Let's get him in.

>> Hey gentlemen, welcome. Welcome to the show. >> Yeah, great to be here. >> Hey, nice to meet you. >> Absolutely. Welcome guys. Um, you know, this uh today marks the launch of Summerfy on Hyper EVM. Um, we've been big Hyperlid fans for a long time. Obviously, they kind of kickstarted the per space again. Um, before we get into why you guys are so bullish on Hyperlid and decided to launch here, could you just give us a background on on yourselves and Summerfi? It's your first time on the show, so tell us a little bit about uh how you guys arrived here with Summerfi, >> Chris.

>> Yeah, sure thing. So, um, so I mean both myself and Jordan uh came from came from Maker um and and so did the Summerfi project. So we both in Maker uh from like 2018 I think Jordan actually maybe just just before right end of 2017. Um but yeah, Summerfi was the originally the front end for the Maker uh multilateral die um stable coin project that launched in November 2019. Uh that's when Summerfi officially launched for the first time originally under the name Oasis.app. Um and then when the foundation dissolved Maker Foundation in 2021, it spun out into its own separate entity and we've kind of expanded from then uh away from Maker into the kind of the wider DeFi ecosystem. Um kind of on that journey then to uh beginning of

last year where we launched a summer token and the latest summer protocol. Um which takes us all the way then to to today uh launching on on the HyperVM and uh yeah continue to expand expand across the different various Ethereum chains. Yeah, I mean Chris um Chris Chris mainly mainly said it but yeah um been in the Ethereum and DeFi ecosystem before it was even DeFi really um and yeah have seen basically all the all the things come and go uh in in DeFi and yeah just really super excited around basically the yield ecosystem I'd say within the the Ethereum uh ecosystem and you know obviously the hyper uh hyper EVM

ecosystem [clears throat] as well for, you know, reasons we can we can definitely get into, but it seems like it's poised to be uh it's poised to be a big one. Definitely big ecosystem. >> Yeah. Yeah. I we uh we got into Hyperlid just a couple days after it launched. We actually uh >> the day No, no, no, no, no. The literal minute the token launched, like the within a minute or two. >> Andy likes to be very >> Three minutes maximum. Maximum three minutes. I was in Hong Kong at the airport smashing by like [laughter] of course I remember this and then it it freaking 40xed.

>> We were invited to join the Hyperlid protocol back all the way in 2023. I think we even talked about a partnership with them and you know we we let that one slip through through the cracks unfortunately. So we're very committed to the minute that we bought Hyperlid on the day that it launched. And so you guys are also quite bullish on HyperVm on Hyperlid. Why did it stick out to you? Why Hyperlid? Uh in in all the craziness of the per space, how does Hyper EVM help accomplish uh Summerf's goals? >> Uh maybe I can step in just very briefly. I think um so if we take one step back and we look at the Ethereum ecosystem uh and we look at the specifically the yield ecosystem and the

DeFi ecosystem within Ethereum one sort of somewhat negative externality of having so much growth is the underlying fragmentation you know I've seen this like map of something that you guys have put out around you know just yield bearing stables like there's you know there's SUSDs there's uh uh SUSD, there's you know all of these different yield bearing stables. And from a customer point of view or a user point of view or even an institutional point of view, you have these decisions of like well which one do I use? What's difference between this one versus that one? Um and those are just yield rank stables. Um not even talking about different vaults and things like that.

Um so that's the Ethereum ecosystem, the DeFi ecosystem within Ethereum. We feel that, you know, similar to the Ethereum ecosystem, hyper the hyper launch, as you say, was incredibly fair, you know, probably the most fair since uh the Ethereum um sort of sale. Um and given that there's so much community like or organic community love within the hyper ecosystem, we feel that it'll probably be a very similar trajectory with respect to um you know the the burgeoning DeFi ecosystem and the yield strategies and the yield ecosystem that comes with that and there's going to be a lot of fragmentation. We already are seeing it within the hyper ecosystem and

that's where lacy summer and the lazy summer protocol and the product that we have we think is a perfect fit. Um because with one simple deposit um you're getting the sort of best risk adjusted yield across the entire ecosystem. You're getting risk management and risk curation out of the box from Block Analytica which also has the the Maker connection. Um probably one of the most trusted and and most uh you know um yeah most trusted uh risk managers and risk curators in the in the DeFi ecosystem. So, I'd say that's why we're we're uh quite bullish on the the Hyper ecosystem and uh want to grow with it basically.

>> Love it. So, guys, what actually shipped today with Lazy Summer on Hyper EVM and what can users do now that they couldn't do before? Talk to us about the product launch here. >> Yeah, sure thing. So, I'll take So, so we launched two two new vaults on latest summer. Um so, we've launched a USDC vault and a USDT vault um on there. And what effectively the latest summer protocol does as as kind of Jordan alluded to there is users deposit just simple USDC or USDT depending on what vault they want and it will then automatically allocate um to the supported kind of like protocols and markets under the hood um and rebalance to the highest yielding markets at any one time. So from a user providing liquidity to any of these any of these markets on the Hyper EBM they want to

they always want to be earning the best yield they could possibly earn. A lot of the time they they they they want to obviously be doing their own risk management and so on. So, we're just making it a lot more simple for anyone on Hyper EVM or on other chains that want to be able to get exposure to Hyper EVM, but haven't dived into like the complexities of where they should be putting their money, where's the safest thing, what the different types of collateral backing these things. Here, they can trust that they've got like a a like worldleading risk manager in Block Analytica, doing the risk assessments, doing the kind of risk caps and so on. Within the Lazy Vaults, it will never just throw kind of 100% of your capital into one market just because it's yielding the highest amounts. The risk manager sets the various different caps

and so on. So if you want just to earn in the easiest way possible like the best risk adjusted yield on the market on HyperVm today now you've got the choice of both USDC and USDT um there's only a handful of markets been added today for the kind of the roll out of the kind of safety first and so on but then over the next few weeks more and more markets are going to get added um even as early as next week actually there's a couple of markets that haven't got risk caps set yet that are about to come online uh probably as early as Monday um but yeah from a user point of view >> it was always self-management up until now picking a variety of different morpho markets or whatever, different protocols like Felix and so on. Now they can just go and deposit in one place and

know they're going to earn the best yield um and so on. Um yeah, you know, for so for so long, just real quick, Andy, for so long there was, you know, chain abstraction, which you guys are participating in, helping man, you know, uh people find yield on different chains and kind of manage uh you know, where they're getting it from, making it really easy. You guys are also kind of taking this a step further. I would call this yield abstraction where you don't really need to know where the yield source is coming from in particular. You guys are abstracting this away. You have a risk manager that's coming in doing a lot of this management and and and risk management for you guys and you're passing on that yield. And so it's very it's abstracting, you know, the complexities of the yield itself, not just the chain, but also the yield

source. Uh Andy. Um yeah, I mean my my thought kind of on that exact point is is then the question of like with this aggregation thesis, how does Lazy Summer decide where where capital goes across Hyperland, Felix, Hyperfi, Hyperbe, you know, how do you kind of allocate capital in in a fashion w without just chasing APYs, chasing yield, um you know, a paying fees for vaults and uh different types of smart contract risks. Obviously, we've talked about block analytica. How does the uh lazy summer uh application or or product uh allocate its its resources?

>> Yeah. So, we've got we've got we've got a set of like kind of AI powered u kind of automated keepers um that do the rebalancing. So, they will ultimately seek the highest possible yield. Um all of these all of the vaults that have been launched are effectively kind of like yield seeking vaults um and so on. So, they will they will look for the highest yield um possible. However, they will also take into account things like the available liquidity on the underlying markets um as well as like I said the risk caps and so on. So there are there are markets for example that will never be allowed to take more than 30% of the vaults TVL um as capital. So it may be it may be offering the highest APY maybe it's triple the next the next level's AP APY um but if there's but if

there's say like $10 million in in the vault it will never be able to give it more than three million. But the keepers will also take into account then how much available liquidity is actually in there making sure it isn't taking all of the available liquidity or being the only available liquidity um in the vault. So if there's if there is starting to be kind of like something something happening or the keepers can detect kind of like abnormal conditions within the vault and so on, it will also start to remove capital from those markets. Um in there it also looks uh and it's designed to look for kind of like lender concentration um and borrower concentration as well. So if there's only one or two borrowers, then that's kind of a red flag and it won't it won't chase that and so on. Or if one

borrower represents like 90% of the capital and so on. So it very much is a kind of like risk first approach but chasing the highest possible yields in ultimately the safest way. Um and and the [clears throat] easiest way as well. Um >> and will you guys support USDH or is that not part of the plan currently? >> Yeah. So, so, [clears throat] so for us, I think it's uh yeah, definitely both USDH as well as hype are certainly within the within the plans. We just want to roll out with sort of, you know, it feels like USDT is kind of uh at least within the yield ecosystem on hyper is kind of the most popular. Um, also of course USDC, but you know, as we get more familiar, we're going to be

rolling out certainly USDH when when the yield uh sort of ecosystem is a little bit more robust. he was certainly not as robust as we'd like it to be probably to propose a um a vault in and of itself. And then of course hype um as well um you know the native asset you know we we stick to the highest quality assets and the highest quality yield sources um on lazy summer that has always sort of been our brand is you know highest quality first especially coming from the maker protocol um or sky I guess now and um uh for us you know in within when we're in the Ethereum ecosystem is USDC USDT and ETH that's it and within uh the hype ecosystem we feel, you know, USDT, USDC,

USDH, and Hype. So, certainly definitely in the clouds. >> And so, you you alluded to Maker is one of the primary sources of yield off of Hype, uh, the Hyper EVM ecosystem. They've do great work. You guys came out of that ecosystem. So, I mean, they've been so so instrumental in the in the success of DeFi, um, across, you know, all all of the the blockchain. Um, and so what what are some of the other venues that you guys see like some really solid yield coming from that has been sustainable uh in the Ethereum landscape?

>> I think I think I think Moro has been like one of the standout ones and and actually Moro is almost like the standout example of what the value is in Lazy Summer as well because he talked about he talked about kind of like um chain chain aggregation and then kind of like protocol aggregation and so on. But then you look at the likes of like Moro and Oiler in particular that have this curator model. There's like maybe 40 50 60 markets for USDC on Oiler um and so on as well at the moment. So it kind of keeps going down to then kind of almost aggregate the different markets within certain protocols and so on. But very like it it's it's pretty regular that when like Jordan for example every month produces like a kind of a rebalance report. So where capital has gone kind

of and moved throughout the month and morpho is always up there. Obviously, a lot of the markets are are being incentivized with the Morpho token. It's obviously doing incredibly well um as well that always helps with the yield, but obviously Morpho's found solid product market fit on almost every chain it's on. Obviously, Morpho is also on on Hyper EVM um as well. And I think kind of like that product market fit is like a kind of really important point and kind of like kind of test of time a little bit as well. And another reason I think why like we're big fans of of of HyperVM, Hyperlquid and so on is because it actually has genuine product market fit compared to most L2 chains. There's only a handful out there I think that actually have solid product market fit.

Same as tokens as well. There's only a handful of tokens that really have or like kind of organic growth, real product market fit. And they're the ones that are supported on summer. Same with the chains, same as the protocols. We're not chasing the highest yield for any protocol. It has to it has to kind of be a tier one tier one protocol and so on. Um because like kind of almost the mantras really is like kind of first rule of anything on summer is you don't don't lose money like that's uh like that's that's like that's that's the rule one um and so on and then if we can make the users more money basically by offering them the tools here that saves them time makes them more and gives them better exposure then then that's kind of our job. But yeah, Morphe was one.

Oiler, Oiler was huge before um kind of before like all the DeFi issues in November as well. Like they were always extremely competitive with the with the yields again supported by the oil the oiler token as well. Um but yeah, fluid is up there. Like what's kind of kind of sad is obviously like the the likes of like the maker like maker or sky savings rate now like your compounds like they're such such proven such battle tested protocols that the yields are generally always a little bit lower there now. and and and that's the safety and so on. But what's great is when you see on on summer is actually when there is market movements and so on then more often than not capital goes into those kind of safe secure protocols um because they suddenly offer the better rates

because that's where people trust them and so on. One one thing I would just add there very quickly is um [clears throat] uh you know every week new yield sources are being proposed into the lacy summer protocol and they can be proposed by anybody. Um so of course we get a lot of kind of ridiculous um proposals. Well, maybe they're not no ridiculous ones, but uh we get a lot of proposals and a lot of them get rejected by maybe the community, but especially so by the uh risk curator or risk manager um block analytica. And I think what's so special about that is you know often especially you guys I think DeFi users um you know two you know when we talk to users we

hear two things mainly. One is they use a TVL as a proxy for trust and they use, you know, their smart friends as a proxy for trust. And now with the lazy summer protocol, you know, yield sources are being proposed all the time. You have people who are, it's literally their full-time job to be, you know, very analytical, very deep on the technical weeds as well as the sort of financial uh engineering weeds of these different yield sources. And they can make that sort of um decision. and you can just always have access to the best stuff regardless of the TVL per se as that only one factor. Um, and they can sort of do that underlying diligence and you can just always have access to the best stuff in the best ecosystems all the time. Um, so you can actually, you know,

you know, spend your time doing like things that you actually probably want to do, maybe just listening to podcasts like this. [laughter] >> Yeah, man. um you know we we've been like putting together this thesis been thinking a lot about you know where we think the space is headed both coming from more of the Wall Street you know finance legacy banking side of things and then also we've seen you know enough in crypto without product market fit it feels like it's time to you know evolve that side as well and you know that that's how we came up with this idea of neo finance this convergence point where both of these sides can meet and one of the aspects of this thesis is not repeating some of the the CD DeFi, the centralized DeFi, uh, BlockFi, sell like

that whole, you know, ended with a lot of people in jail. We don't want to repeat that, but we do like the ease. We like the the idea of, you know, a forgot password button where someone can, you know, basically help us, you know, recover our account. But we want and and so, you know, centralized frontends are okay. you know, self-custody isn't for everyone, but it's important that DeFi is in the back end because that's how we can get higher safe yields. And so, you know, one of the one of the things that uh came out of this thesis was the idea of exogenous yield. Basically, there's a lot of yield coins and D5 protocols. Now, they're going out, they're issuing credit uh someone like a Maple or a a Daylight. Daylight, for instance, is a

real solar company. They're going out, they're giving credit to uh, you know, real revenue. They're creating real revenue and they're bringing it back to token holders. Uh, another one is USDA is maybe an even better example, extending credit to AI companies. AI companies pay interest and USDA, you know, pays uh, yield back to its token holders. And so I'm curious if you've thought out at all about, you know, kind of these industries that are popping up where we're able to extend credit uh and then bring exogenous yield back to token holders. Where and and in general, where do you think is like the next frontier for bringing new yield to this industry?

>> [clears throat and snorts] >> Like I think Spark announced something interesting either today or or last night I think as well right the collaboration with Anchorage then being able to offer those clients effectively being able to borrow against Bitcoin and then using the Spark liquidity layer for for that which I think is fascinating. I think from our point of view, we're le we're less thinking about where the yield comes from, but actually how people can provide capital into the various different markets um to then allow other like either large borrowers either institutional borrowers or or or or DeFi borrowers depending on the integration. And again, this comes back down to the Lady Sign Protocol and being able to do what we kind of like call kind of self-managed or self-branded vaults where kind of like your DeFi apps or your custodians or your kind of large

financial institutions can actually go and deploy kind of like working working with us but to deploy their own vaults, get access to these different markets and actually build themselves a product for their own customers. So, a self-branded product whitelisted only to their customers and so on. But again, like you said, DeFi, DeFi in the back end and kind of CFI traditional finance in some ways and in the front end just for the just from the user experience point of view in a way like UX has always been kind of the downfall of of crypto really, but also just in particular DeFi. Um, and something like myself and Jordan been working on ever since like 2018 to try and improve that.

But yeah, trying to trying to produce bring more capital on chain. And if there's more capital on chain that can then be borrowed then we're going to start to see much bigger different types of borrowers different types of products as well where if there actually is a much more liquidity on chain because in reality the liquidity for for borrowing is is quite restricted to just the major apps and stuff at the moment the kind of makers that are morphos at the moment like morpho is doing awesome work with coinbase and the coinbased borrowers and so on for coin um BTC and so on. That's a great take that >> Yeah. That's a great example, right, of of you know, an easy to use front end and you guys make it easy as well and you have, you know, all of these yield sources in the back end.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean I Yeah. I mean I I hugely grateful for the compliment of how easy it is, but compared to CFI or or or like fintech in reality, it's it's a it's still a long long way to go. And I still think that the ultimate goal here is and it kind of pains me to say the ultimate goal is like to to have have just define the back end of fintech and so on because I think in 2018 we had much bigger visions for like everyone being their own bank or whatever but the harsh reality is like everyone will go for the simplest options that still provides the best returns. DeFi can produce the best returns but we just we need to like go to the masses like we're not going to on board billions of people into a self-custodial wallet.

>> Yeah. like totally agree. >> You've given up on that vision as well. >> It's a Trojan horse. I I I maybe it's aspirational, but I I do think it's a stepping stone to ultimately get to the the aspirational vision that we've had, you know, going back decade at this point. >> Jordan, you had >> I think Jordan Jordan had something to add. >> Yeah. So, just very quickly, the only thing I would say is I think uh very very to put a bow on it, um um ETFs, right? We saw this sort of same thing happen with ETFs. I heard Chris is actually the first person I heard say this. Um, but I've heard it been spouted around a lot recently from I think a guy at Bitwise and other people. And you know, credit, we've seen credit and

bonds and and other yeah, forms of credit um be wrapped up in ETFs. And if we're going to see all of the different types of, you know, forms of credit and and and such and forms of yield come on chain, um, I think we can have a similar thing thinking about in terms of vaults and things like that and things like lazy summer basically are just going to be kind of similar to ETFs, at least in the sort of user experience. And, you know, that also goes back, you know, if you want to do that yourself and on the, you know, summer front end, you can do that. If you want to plug into you know a fintech app or something and get summer through that like the lacy summer protocol through that you can do that.

So it's really best of both worlds and I think that we in terms of what yield sources are coming on chain if you know um you know uh you know DeFi is really going to have a dare there there or actually get to mass scale we can expect all kinds of yield sources to come on chain and that's why something like lazy summer is so important because you know the credit market is the smart part of the market as it is right now so how can we expect users to actually do that underwriting themselves they need some type of um layer to help with that. Some type of abstraction layer to go back to the beginning, you know, to help with that. So, yeah, that's uh that's kind of my perspective on that.

>> Yeah, and that's where like the analogy to the ETFs come in, right? It's very similar. You know, these folks aren't trying to go buy Bitcoin on the Bitcoin blockchain using some crazy DEX crosschain swap thing in self seed phrases, etc., etc., etc. Gentlemen, two choices, one moment. Hyper EVM is now live on lazy summer USDC USDT vault and Hyper EVM aggregated exposure across Felix Hyper Hyperfi Hyperbeam summer rewards Hyper EVM points Hyperlid is the place to be gentlemen thank you for for joining us today best of luck on the big launch upcoming I know you guys have a lot cooking >> congrats thank you so much >> thank you >> been great being again soon guys >> see you next cheers

>> all righty Boys and girls, Grant from Blockmates, the founder of Blockmates 2026, prediction, thesises, and more, man. Oh, man. Man, >> I hear uh I hear [laughter] I hear Grant's got some uh got some spicy takes coming up that he >> I think he does, man. I I I think I think he's ready to get fired up, >> man. >> Let's go. >> This stream is ripping. Tom Lee, Bit Miner. Guys, we will be going live with the shareholder meeting after our next guest. We have two more guests. Then Tom Lee's coming on on the screen.

>> Two guests and Tom. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Tom Lee will join us from the shareholder meeting. I wish he was phoning in himself. We're going to watch the shareholder meeting. We're going to bring you guys uh face to face so that you can uh hear it live uh and understand what is happening because really the fate of ETH hangs in the balance. The fate of ETH. The fate of ETH. The fate of ETH and Mando's gigalong position hangs in Tom Lee's hands and Mr. Beast. Now I saw a tweet I think from Thread Guy. It was like Mr. Beast just got paid $200 million to be an ETH cheerleader.

Absolutely insane. Insane runaround of events for Mr. Beast over here. Guys, let's get started. We've got our boy Grant from Blockmates. He's going to rip us 2026 predictions one by one by by one. We got about 25 minutes with our boy Grant. Then we got Ismmail from Lrange on AI Supercycle and we're going to parlay that right into Tom Lee's shareholder meeting. We got a lot going on here today. If you're here waiting for Tom Lee, guys, hit the subscribe button on YouTube. The chat is available. We are reading the chat from you guys. We will ask the questions that you guys want us to ask. We are on the chat, guys. If you're watching on YouTube, hit the subscribe button. We are live every day. We have huge news

coming from New York City in a couple of months. We've got more streams. We've got great content all week long for all of 26. Guys, if you're on Twitter, hit the follow button, hit the like, hit the repost. Show us some love. We're gonna get Grant from Blockmates. He's going to take us through his 2026 predictions. I'm stoked. Let's go. >> Let's bring him up. >> Our boy is ready to go. [laughter] >> There he is. >> How you doing?

>> Welcome. >> You're live. >> Thanks for having me, Jens. Yeah, thanks. Sorry to post DMs asking for a request. Uh, >> cheers, man. No, man. I mean, if it was a bearish market in the beginning of the year, we'd probably say no. But now that it's just now that we're back to the bull market, let's [ __ ] we're we're on, boys. We're on. >> We're back. We're back again. It's crazy how sentiment turns around, isn't it? After like 5% move. [laughter] >> Literally. Literally like like a move from 90 to 95 uh changes it all. Man, this is going to be our last predictions episode of the year. So, we're stoked. Um, I know you guys have a ton of uh a ton of thesises that you want to share from Capitol Hill, from Metadal, from Robin Hood, general purpose chains, robotics, cryptocards, neo banks. We're

pioneering this neo finance idea. Hope we get some time to talk about that. But Grant, maybe just kick us off at the highest level, man. What is your what is your most broad holistic prediction for 2026? Take us through. Excited for this one. >> It's weird. We start getting into different sections. We've got three writers on this. Myself, uh, 563 hour head of research and Kai. And we keep tripping over each other because everything seems to come back to the point, and I know you guys know this as well as anyone, that the industry's grown up, but we're at the point of where the end goal was never really unclear, right? For this industry to exceed to succeed, it kind of just fades into the background and merges into

everything else. it just becomes one with tech and AI and finance and that was never really unclear to me. But what is probably keeping people a little bit more jaded what we've seen over the past 18 months is the industry as a whole is succeeding better than ever. Clarity across the board like the acquisitions that are going on is is is absolutely insane. But what isn't reflective of that is the token side. So nobody's making any money [laughter] but yet the industry is in this weird dynamic that it's succeeding really really well. Um, so everything comes back to and it's going to be like a weird thesis to share because it's just this constant recurring theme throughout the whole paper which is tokens need to

change right so the idea is we're going to have extremely profitable businesses and some of the most efficient businesses on planet earth apart from only fans are crypto businesses right so it's it's per stexes it's it's token issuance it's to generate casinos it's and they are revenue per employee most efficient business on the planet Right. And you can't overlook that. Again, getting back to the point of the token's not really um reflecting that in the market. There have obviously been some outliers that have did did well and that correlation between fundamentals and token price has existed. But I think we're at this point with like the largest dislocation between positive fundamentals from an industry and from a company and from a project perspective and what that token is reflecting it as.

So, um I think we see one of two things. You either just get profitable businesses that just say thanks but no thanks. We're not even going to have a token. I don't want to have to sit in Discord or Telegram and have some NE who's never been employed, does not run a business tell me I need to do some more marketing. Not interested in that. We're just going to not have a token, right? And you're a profitable business, so why the [ __ ] should you? Like that's cool. And then the other side opposite side of the fence, I think the market will start to demand that if there is a token that it is actually tied to some investor protections. So when you hit it at Metad there, I think what they're doing was stamp like this evolution of a safe and a saft, but then putting it on

top of future and protection markers to decide whether that outcome is um viable. I think that's really really cool. I still don't and you both your take on this because it's something that I laugh at quite a lot and you guys obviously run a very very successful business. Um I don't think there's any landscape where people who are think about this all day every day and it's all consuming for someone as as as you guys know running a business every little decision whether you want to change the hex color on your [ __ ] logo for god's sake should be put to like a futuric vote or governance just doesn't make sense to me whatsoever like boards in the real world like how the real world operates if it if there's a dispute resolution that needs to happen and it needs to go to a vote that's when

it happens. If you want to change the [ __ ] header on your Twitter profile, that shouldn't be going to like [laughter] some weird governance vote where there's a lot of theater that gets goes on and there's a lot of weird backhand kind of lobbying that kind of goes on in Telegram groups and stuff like that. So, I still think founders should have drastic control until it starts to look like the wheels might be falling off or there is like a really really really drastic decision that everyone really can't agree on. So I think saw s um and uh metadata are doing a really really interesting thing. I think street foundation are doing something really interesting. So those three um are trying to solve the problem by coming out with different solutions. But again the recurring theme throughout all of this which people will see when we

release it tomorrow is what to do about tokens. No, I mean completely. And we had the framework guys on last week and they were talking about how finally now the SEC in innovation hub in the states is now open for business. Meaning it's not like hey uh you're going to get um absolutely subpoenaed and ridiculed for coming to us if you bring us your your you know if you bring your project to our attention. It's more of like okay we're willing to work with you on how to structure these tokens. And so I think like 2026 is firmly the year of uh knowing what you're buying uh knowing what claims to ownership of equity or token that you have the the unification

of these um and just really getting transparency and clarity into what you're buying and and I think that is like the massive massive token uh trend to expect this year. I think there's probably some teams with tokens that are already in existence that might have a reasonable amount of the supply still to come online that might actually look at it and try and retrofit some direct equity um with the remaining tokens or some tokens. The only reason I'm not doubling down on

that idea is I think there's a lot of founders that have got incredibly rich at a very early stage of their product life cycle and their company life cycle, which wouldn't necessarily happen in the real world. They'd have to wait till they got acquired or gone public. That's kind of like ass backwards in in this industry. So, some teams might just be sat there and saying, "Why the [ __ ] would we need to do that? We've already we've already got the bag." But I think there will be teams that want to do it the right way. And if they do lead by example, I think the rest of the market will will reward that and I don't think people will put up with anything as anything second best to to that if that makes sense.

>> I like it. I agree. >> I think also Yeah. And and I I think also as as uh this the tokens and the crypto companies that do go public as they integrate deeper into this legacy financial world that is accustomed to equity cap tables doing things the more traditional way they will resemble equity cap tables more for and it's so funny grant to hear you say like in the real world this is how they do things. It wouldn't normally go like this. It's like yeah like are we not living in the real world like where are we right world as like and I I think that was always unsound to come to an end at some point you

can't live in a bubble like you know your whole life and so it it makes sense that now we're kind of realizing this and becoming more integrated into the real world and things are going to have to change things are going to look a little bit differently and resemble a little bit more of the legacy financial space >> and then you know the tok token prices will be the you know there will be it there's going to be this uh further concentration effect of winners like you know the magnificent 7 call it like the magnific like the magnificent 1020 or the magnificent 3 I mean we'll see kind of like how that structures but I think it'll be those ones those ones that have this clarity this transparency that will win all right Grant moving on from from this privacy big privacy take here ZKTLS

enabling new applications on chain FHE, Ethereum leaning into uh privacy heavily. We've seen Monero pump Arthur Hayes is so bold up on Zcash. What is the privacy thesis? We've seen Near Intense, Starknet, Salana just had this weird beef thing that they just did on the timeline. Clearly privacy is on is on people's minds. What is Grant's privacy thesis for 2026? >> Yeah, I think it's a culmination of of a lot of things. I think the I think the Zeba knowledge teams and Zika TLS teams and even the T teams and the FH teams, not to put too many acronyms in my mouth at the same time. I think that tech is

starting to become extremely viable now. I think you've seen Vitalic Greenlight, a lot of what we've just previously mentioned there. I think a lot of the more legacy ZK teams are really starting to come in their own probably started looking relatively similar at the start and now they've branched off into relatively different directions. So, um, you've got lighter showing what what's always good is like showcasing a piece of tech as opposed to just telling people how good it is. And I feel like they've done that really really well. Um, all at the same time of absolute saturation of crazy geopolitical situations happening near enough every day now, right? It's like it's crazy situations that are extreme headlines that just get dropped onto the

feet every single day. and now not even feeling like crazy like how like the magnitude of that news headline in and of itself because it's so saturated. It's just like second nature and it's just that's just the situation the world's in currently. So I think it's a weird kind of whirlwind of events where the tech's meeting up with like this extreme backdrop a lot of fear in the world and at the same time like bas the previous conversation that we were just having the disconnect between tokens and fundamentals I think the privacy sector I will refuse to call it like a privacy matter because I think that's [ __ ] stupid. Um, I think it's a a human right think it's it it really should go as far as that. But at the same time, because there is that much disconnect between

what crypto used to be, where it's moved in this current direction, I feel like people want to actually buy into something that they can truly tangibly believe in. Again, I think that is the kind of essence of what the industry started on. And it's like people clinging on to something that is definitely valuable, definitely viable. And the tech is also like coming into its own where it's starting to back it up as well now. So it's like the philosophical meets the ideological where and at the same time the fundamental on the political and geopolitical backdrop. So a lot of things all boiled into one. It just feels like the right time for it.

>> It's funny that Monero is ripping the the token for the assassins and the criminals while Zcash is like trying to work with the SEC and just can't can't catch a bid. Such is the way of life. It's funny like I there's so much uh just intuition baked into these things when the mass and the crowd start following in like >> right but there's also OG thing though like you like the three of us know like the Monero Zcash backtory a lot of people don't you know what I mean >> Monero was 51% attacked in August of last year the IRS has a back door it's not really private like what is what are we doing here Yeah.

I love that. I love that. Add You can add our boy Arthur to that list. Shout out to Arthur. Hopefully you come back on the pod. Um, next one. General purpose blockchain valuations come back to life or come back to earth. Tempo, JPM chain, Robin Hood chain, Commonwe not dead, but not 12,000 times earnings. Santiago coded versus Hib. What's your take here on L1's? Um, Sue went down for two hours yesterday and uh I think it took the the market the entire two hours to realize probably a sign of the times.

Where are we at here on L1's >> through pure market frenzy that there wasn't even enough demand for general purpose block space across Salana base and maybe a couple of other flavor of the week's chain at the time. So um I believe that for current demand um I feel like we're at general purpose saturation of all we would typically need particularly with performance getting commoditized across the board. Um, what I will not throw out with that statement at the same time is I feel like we're already starting to see and it's kind of ironic that like Cosmos was directionally correct from the start.

It's just that didn't maintain relevance long enough for people to think, oh [ __ ] this is where the industry is heading with app specific or like really hyperspecific from the ground up networks to, you know, still be around and be top of mind when this kind of new wave is actually coming over. So, Hyperlid showed the playbook. Um I am still a bit in two minds about what happens when an application gets really really successful on a general purpose chain. It feels like the inevitable next step would be to go app specific chain. I think poly market probably launches its own own network and they want to own that full stack. They don't need to be paying rents to any other network.

They're well the best app in the industry currently. So um I feel like you see more and more app specific chains as like a equal and opposite reaction to there being no desire to actually go and build another general purpose chain. Um seen GTE move away from wanting to build on top of Mega Reef to going to build their own specific chain. I think that trend continues. I do think you do need to find some level of product market fit before you go down that route because building the chain is really [ __ ] expensive. Um, so I think the winner if that is to play out in theory is probably Patrick O'Grady's uh new company which he was the ex engineer at Avalanche. So probably no better person in the full industry to kind of say what a a chain from the ground up that's

hyper specific should be built on and they've built common war which is a framework and like hyper hyper hyper customizable from the ground up. Tempo have adopted some of its um frameworks. I believe GT might have used it as well, but I feel like that is going to be the the catch all of like how would you directionally bet on that if they have a token or if they don't know like previous point was like people like that have got a successful business shouldn't have a token. >> Exactly. [laughter] >> Exactly. >> Just sit there and sit there watch the thesis play out and not make any money off it again.

>> Dude, I like this next one about NEO finance here. Crypto cards being the next uh major product market fit, but who wins? probably a good opportunity to roll up dying apps and integrate a wallet. I saw Mike Novagrass put out a tweet saying that centralized exchanges and some wallets are going to shift towards more of a neoank structure as well um kind of create this onboarding product. We're calling it neo finance. What's your take here on this like neo finance category, crypto cards h how do you see this neo bank uh growth playing out? Yeah, I mean you guys have been like banging this drum. So, um I'm I'm good glad to be in good company on it.

But the I feel like um the pillars of like true product market fit, what we spoke about like some of the most efficient businesses on the planet like revenue per employee, it's perpetual exchanges, it's issuance, whether that be stable coins or I think you will start to see like huge issuance um providers maybe like security eyes and people like that doing extremely well um but not just for not just for dollars. um pumped our fun the greatest casino ever created launched coin so it's a similar sort of thing issuance speculation anything that can be a pix and sholes play around that and then I feel like the next drastic category that could fall into as something as of large of a magnitude of of that would be as what you guys are calling it um I think

neo finance and I think cards are ripe for that taking like the the June boards on all of them are up and to the right what I will say is there is quite a lot of um incentives being pumped out for a lot of these cards. So like three to 10% cash back I've seen on some of them and someone has to lose out on there. Like there's a token getting extremely highly inflated by in in the process of doing so using it as a customer acquisition cost to get people on. I don't personally think the moat or the winner is the person who can pump out the highest rewards because we've seen time and time and time again since early 2020 people move on to where the largest reward is. I think it comes around hypersp specific exclusive rewards like how many conferences do we go to between

us like on the ground activations getting into cool clubs getting into cool restaurants getting into places that you can't get to unless you got this specific card. If you're already [ __ ] rich you don't really care about like the ones and 2% getting dropped back into your wallet of like some hyperdelationary L2 token. You're probably never even going to realize it anyway. It's just you want it's more of like a a social symbol. It's an accessory. It's what you want to be seen with. you want people to ask what's that when you're paying for something when you're inevitably picking up the [ __ ] tab at the end of the night when everyone's been drinking on on your bill. So those are the people I think will win. Um I think Phantom has an unfair advantage because they've already got distribution. Um I think anyone

again who can lean into the more cool lifestyle aspect of it will probably have like a really nice cult following. But the wallet providers have got a very very very good head start here. I think >> I like it man. And I think the centralized exchanges do too. Um, as far as their their customer base, uh, their and their and their grip on their customer base is very strong in terms of that. It's kind of like it's already their one-stop shop. And we saw by bit roll out Mantle's UR app, your app, Kraken has just rolled out their uh, Krak Neoank app, Coinbase now, his base app, and and like Coinbase wallet. So, between that and then Phantom, uh, MetaMask, etc., I I think you're you're spot on here. Um, last couple ones here.

More mergers and acquisitions rollups happen due to teams of in interesting products not seeing product market fit quite yet, but could make an interesting business. Talk to us about this one. What does this mean? >> This is kind of an extension of that previous point. So I think I think the recent Revolute um raise announcement which previously in like 2016 just to put this into example what we're talking about about like extremely over inflated crypto companies and prices. Revolute were raising at like46 million pounds or something. So that's what 5060 million at the time. Um there was enough meat on the bone for every and that was crowdfunded as well by the way on some like two bit crowdfunded platform in the UK. Um so there was enough meat on the

bone for that to happen. Now they've just raised that $75 billion valuation. So I feel like everyone's having a little look at that and being like we've got the distribution, we've got the financial product, we've got better savings accounts that we can offer, which yields from DeFi. Um I think everything trends towards looking pretty similar. So I'd look at a and be like they actually have everything that you need to replicate something like what's going on with Revolute where I just put into my savings account. I don't really know where the yield's coming from and put, you know, which got my my savings in my in my cash account just sat there.

Maybe there's a card attached to it. There's premium parks built off all all the back around it. Um, but I think these these companies that already have lindiness, they're already established, already extremely profitable. They haven't tried to fund operations by just selling tokens. Those guys are probably looking around now at the million different chains that launched over the past two years where they had um where these networks had championed these teams and these applications where they're supposed to be flagship BS dexes, money markets, spot deexes, stable swaps, like any flagship product you could think think would be uh a staple in a DeFi ecosystem.

I think those now are at extreme valuations where you could go and just pick them up, scoop them off the floor, acquire the team, acquire the IP. um bundle them all up and inherently just have like a much higher valuable product starts to look much more like a DeFi suite and kind of feeds into what you guys are saying with the the Neo banking kind of thesis. At the same time, I've seen some apps recently over the past week when I've been going over to far away chains start at like one and two million market cap. I have no idea what the equity attached to that would be valued and worth, but they're incredible products and great teams that have built them from the ground up. And I feel like because they've chose to deploy on a network that isn't really getting any love or attention, feel like they're

ripe for acquisition and mergers. Um feel like there's a bit of a talent leakage that's gone to AI as well. So any teams that are still sticking around that are building in the space, I feel like could get brought under some wings and we will see more of it. Um the problem is which people won't really want to hear is when these mergers and acquisitions happen similar to the Axel one with circle the other day the big boys will not put up with hyperinflated valuations. Everything will have to like be in line with the real world. Um so if you've got no users but you've got a brilliant app is like who gives a [ __ ] This is what you're getting. Take it or leave it.

What are your other options? You're just going to continue to sell tokens on the open market for the rest of eternity. Well, you your tokens are 3 million markups, so you can't actually do that. So, I feel like there's going to be a lot of that. Um, I feel like a product suite is better than just a standalone product. Um, and again, I feel like it feeds back into what you guys are saying about like neo banking and neo finance. >> Yeah, it's just this convergence of legacy finance and DeFi. It's there's kind of two there's kind of two enemies here. There's the enemy that is what we're talking about here with this lack of of structured tokens, governance, DAO, Fugazi, decentralization for the sake of it for regulatory arbitrage, high FTV, low float, infr infras, slop.

That's kind of like enemy number like two. I mean, it's kind of enemy number one and two and I mean number one is just like traditional finance. It's like we're going to tokenize everything. We're going to bring it all on shame. So it's like I think it's emotionally driven and like all the logical reasoning that you're that you're explaining here drives directly into like what we're seeing as well. So it's good to get some confluence here from you. Um last one. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'll just I'll just quickly say on that the the enemy in general is just the old way of doing things like I >> correct both in crypto and outside. Yeah.

>> Exactly. Exactly. >> Go ahead. >> Um last one Grant Robotics question mark. Um is this the year of crypto robotics? Is there any investable crypto robotics uh tokens right now? Like I have not boughten a single one. >> I got a sleeper. >> What's going on here in robotics? [laughter] >> I'll let Gran go first. >> Um I haven't really seen so to kind of like round off everything that we said and this is like a great sector to ask this question on. I don't inherently think that the I've seen I could be wrong yet to caveat that any company that benefits more by being on crypto rails in in the robotic sector just yet, right? Um I think

if I was if I was to think about like what you'd build to actually satisfy that niche, I think there's going to be a a complete lack of spatial data and spatial information that robotic sector needs to actually thrive. Um, I think everyone's got a really really good device that lives in the pocket and it's like basically attached to the hand all day every day and a mobile phone with extremely good cameras that could be used in some weird sort of deep in work where you could be incentivizing people to go and capture spatial data or different types of data sets that are like visual uh audio, photo, video, anything that um robotics or robotics um LM AI models could could actually be trained on. Um I don't know if that's existing. I don't know if anyone's doing

it well enough. We all know really how a majority of DPM projects have played out. Can you fix that by instead of people just dumping what looks like food coupons onto the market as the reward for doing tasks like that? Um could you then tie it back to tokenized equity and then you kind of think twice about actually selling on the open market once you realize the rewards for doing the task um from said deep in product. So I haven't personally seen anything. That's why we haven't went too far into detail, but it's it's the worst kept secret ever. Like the [laughter] robotics sector is getting so much investment.

It's absolutely insane. I >> mean, Rob, did you have a sleeper for us? >> I I do. Andy, I'm surprised you don't remember this one. Again, not financial advice. Do your own research. But >> here we go. >> We had That's a good primer, bud. >> We had Arthur Hayes, [laughter] the Arthur Hayes, right? Obviously, uh, BitMEX liquidated all of us. Um he came on >> caused me depression bro >> with this guy Niels and Niels is the founder of Aayuki and uh Au Ki >> and these guy and he came came on and in his background was a physical robot and he explained the benefit of turning this phys physical robot into a DPIN network.

Yeah. Is you every time you load this thing up >> you load up a smart contract from the Ethereum network. And so this deepin network is effectively like this mapping of the real world. And they put this together by basically decentralizing the entire robot cluster. And then everything is able to coordinate and transact with one another and and not just transact in terms of commerce but transact data and share the perception of the robot like what it's seeing, its view of the world. You know, is there a building here? Is there a road there?

Traffic light, you know, stoplight. we've all do the the the you know captures and so they're able to like transact this different robotics data with one another by uh by blockchain and >> I don't know if you saw the latest all-in pod uh with um our boy what's the guy who always talks about Uber Kanakis um dude I invested in Uber >> first investor in Uber [laughter] >> that's gonna be that's going to be me with Pudgy Penguins in five years and plasma be like yeah yeah but I was an early investor in Pudgy Penins Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, um he gets on stage and he's like, "Dude, I went to Tesla's headquarters in Austin or something or or in California. I think it was in probably probably in Austin. Sunday

morning, 10:00 a.m. There's tons of people working. I walk in to see Optimus 3 and I'm mind blown. There's going to be a billion Optimus 3 robots. With the power of LLMs and spatial reasoning, now they have the ability to interact in the world. I think there's going to be one robot for every human in the future and people are underestimating this. Tesla is no longer going to be known or is in the future will not be known as a car company. Will be known as the company which created Optimus the [ __ ] robot. Your robot girlfriend, Rob, finally what you've been waiting for.

>> What does that what does that have to do with crypto and blockchain? >> I'm just giving you the bull thesis, man. Grant, last thing for you. This is what everybody wants to know. Where are we going to end price-wise? End of 2026. Is it going to be a positive year, negative year? We had right before the new year talking about 150k Bitcoin by the end of the year regardless of what happens midyear and intraear. What's your take? Where is the market going this year? >> Yeah, I think we would think we'll be a lot higher than here.

>> Um, [ __ ] I still think there's a lot of non-believers. Uh, and you won't you won't catch me with these rallies, but I feel like there's you know when you just get a gut feeling that there's like the weird hive mind that happens in this industry and people are like starting to put risk on again. >> Yep. >> Starting to feel good. >> Beautiful. Grant man, always a pleasure. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much. >> Take it easy. Keep up the great work. I'm sure your growth on the biz side has been pretty [ __ ] strong like ours. So, I think we're in our hockey stick phase here of the brand. So, let's let's keep flooring it, dude. Absolutely.

Thanks a lot, Jen. Really appreciate it. >> Cheers, mate. [snorts] >> Thanks, Greg. I'll see you next time, man. >> All right. >> All right, man. What a what a good segment there. >> We're ripping through. We're ripping through. Let's do a quick commercial break so that we can get set up for AI Super Cycle, our uh weekly AI segment sponsored by Near. We're going to be right back. And Ishmail from Lrange. [music] Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto.

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premier AI show airing every single week presented by Near. We cover the ins and outs of decentralized AI, privacy, and the future of this massive technology. Near is the blockchain for AI and the execution of AI native apps. You can check out Near's latest AI product at near.ai. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. Welcome back to AI. All righty, guys. Welcome back to AI Supercycle episode number 16, our weekly premier AI show powered by our friends over at Near crushing with their near intense products. They're also their private near AI chat product. One of my favorite chat GBT chat products uh esque product.

Isshmail, welcome to the show. >> Andy Robbie, thank you so much for having me back. Love being here always. >> First uh first show of the new year with our friend Ishmamail. Uh you were part of the recurring cast of characters back in 2025 and feels like we're we're just getting back to it. >> Oh, I know. It's going to be a big year. We talked about everything from AI to ZK last year and I think the AI space at least is not slowing down. >> Yeah, man. It's definitely not, man. Catch us up. >> Yeah. What's the latest? What is the latest in the in this intersection between AI and ZK? I know that you guys are doing some interesting work with ZKML as well as just general uh uh defense work which is also interesting.

Catch us up here. >> Yeah. So for everyone who doesn't know, Lrangee is a company that builds cryptography ZK FHE consensus everything that's required to make AI safe across dual use technology both commercial things like crypto and now defense. A big part of the last six months was us taking our industryleading technology from within crypto and finding dual use applications of that with legacy primes with upand cominging defense companies people like Anderell Shield and continuing to purpose that within crypto for tremendous business value.

>> And so my understanding of Ander I remember I saw the the demo of the headset on Joe Rogan and this guy was able to you could see through walls. It was incredible. I can only imagine what you know was happening in in Venezuela when we took Maduro maybe putting some of that technology to work. How how does the cryptography fit into the hardware ultimately like defense is a multitude of things but where does the cryptography fit into the AI weaponry defense stack? >> Yeah, this is a great question. So to take a step back, we've had a thesis for a while that the cryptography that's being developed and financed in crypto is light years ahead of what's being done in any other sector, right? We're

the only industry that throws billions of dollars into research on consensus and ZK and FH and all this stuff, right? Except every single company in crypto is only purposing this innovation into crypto. We've seen the broad variety of other sectors that the companies that can take something that's built in the private sector and purpose that dual use into supporting American war fighters have been able to have tremendous impact and have been able to drive substantial business val uh shareholder value. And we believe that crypto is no different. there's an opportunity to take things in crypto that have secured AI in some of the most uh adversarial environments, right? Securing billions of dollars of assets across consensus, across CK usage, and across AI agents on chain.

And to purpose that to secure AI used in autonomous weaponry and defense relevant programs. And so this involves both hardware security obviously which is what exists today and increasing security on model usage and increasing security over how autonomous assets can coordinate within contested environments. >> So okay so the zk element is important for for these autonomous environments. Why like like why is this property important for this specific niche? >> Yeah. So assume that you have a defense relevant drone that you put into a a battlefield environment, right? That drone has an onboard model or is communicating back to a command and

control system that's running a model to coordinate what that asset does. The question is, is the right model being used? Has that model been tampered with? Has the connection been tampered with? Has the result that is that that that drone is going to use to make a killchain relevant decision? Is that coming from the right model? These are all very very important properties when you use AI in defense relevant programs. Our thesis is that the cryptography that's been developed in crypto has a unique opportunity to secure that. >> Got it.

>> This is fascinating. This is something that because this is a combination of DPIN but also ZK and some of the crypto cryptography that we've talked about on the show. And so we haven't really broken into this >> was you know you've been in the cryptography space you know for a long time building lrangege but when did it >> dawn on you that okay we should be applying our cryptographic principles to this particular sector of the industry how did how did you know how do you break into this this >> you know I I think some of the work and some of the speeches by you know Alex Karp in technological republic or or some of Paul Mory's podcasts talk about this idea that you have a generation of companies you know, the the the food delivery

apps, the future of work things, the payment infrastructure that effectively have taken the best American engineers and researchers and have purpose them to do things that are trivial, effectively small quality of life improvements for, you know, the the top 10% in in and in income earnings in in the United States. And so you can take that technology and then effectively companies like Palanteer and Anderil and Shield have taken that technology from the valley and have purposed that to secure and to build uh new defense programs to extend US uh you know drone and defense and AI dominance. Now crypto is very much in the same position, right? What has the industry put a billion dollars of R&D into ZK4, right? It's to launch more blockchains. It's to have more private

blockchains to sell more tokens effectively, right? Which is fine. People make a lot of money selling tokens, but there's an opportunity to take that technology and the exact same way companies like Palunteer and Anderell and Shield have with their respective industries and to purpose what has been built and financed in crypto into defense. I think the the analogies are very clear at least to me. But the question is, hey, you know, what team has the capability of doing it? We're a research company. We've been developing zero knowledge systems for the better part of four years. Fortunately, you you know or unfortunately you guys have invited us on here for four years to hear us talk about it.

>> Um and you know I think I think the frontier of that is obviously continuing to to apply this stuff in crypto to generate obviously substantial token holder value as well as finding opportunities outside of crypto and defense is one that is very very important to us as a business to apply our technology to. >> Yeah. Yeah. So so we're pretty big on the privacy uh part of AI in this show and I I was mentioning uh Near.AI AI their chat product which effectively is like a very private LLM chat product. When it comes to the privacy aspect of ZK we've seen a bid on Monero and Zcash recently. Um it's you can't even call it a meta. These things have existed for so long. How do you how do you think about the relevance of the private angle with the work that you guys are doing as it

applies to whether it be some of your uh decentralized proof networks, deep proof, ZKML [clears throat] and then how that applies to kind of crypto other industries like talk to us about your personal and Lrange's perspective on the privacy aspect uh as it relates to the ZK work that you're doing. Yeah, I think you guys are ahead of the curve here. As as as usual, the the ability to apply privacy preserving technology onto AI is one of the largest unsolved commercial problems I think within crypto and outside of crypto. The the reality is there's two questions in privacy I think are important. A, how do you keep the model private to protect the weights, the biases, the

architecture, and all the business relevant properties for the person who developed that? And two, how do you allow the the data, the prompt that people are using as input to generate some inference result to also be private? Um, and these are two separate problems, right? There's the business side of how do I make sure my IP is not stolen? And you know, let's say you're in defense, it's how do I make sure it's not stolen by China. If you're in the US, it's how do I make sure my, you know, my LLM that I'm using to underwrite insurance data is not stolen by my competitor. And then the other side is how do I ensure that all of my personal data is private? And this is where things like ZK are so important.

Deep proof, our flagship product is able to address both of those things, right? The first is you can run inference over a model that's verifiable while keeping that model private. You can ensure if your user that you're sending your request to, I don't know, Google Gemini and the result you're getting back is coming from the right commitment to that right model. You also using an ancillary technology like NPC or FHE on top of something like deep proof, you can add privacy on top of the input such that the prompt you're sending is not going to be seen in, you know, plain text effectively by the person running that inference for you, which is great, you know, and it makes me feel nice and warm and fuzzy if it's my own personal conversations with chat GPT. But when

you talk about enterprise or business context, it's even more important. and give us a an update on on the state of ZK because for so long this was in R&D phase. It was very academic. We had to do hard math in order to you know get the performance to a point where it became it became useful as a a pragmatic business solution. Where are we at today? What has the performance been like over the last few months and and do we still have more room to go or or is it at the pace and the performance now where you know if we need to prove every you know instance of where a drone is shooting we can get that proof back you know within within a matter of milliseconds in order for the drone to

make a decision or we're able to use it in chat bots at scale where you know where are we at in the state of ZK >> yeah I mean have you guys ever seen that chart where it shows effectively like the hype on stuff and it gets really high and then it goes all the way down and slowly rises back up again. That's what ZK was, right? For the the early part of last year and then definitely uh in 2024, the the hype on ZK was so high. It was we're going to solve everything with zero knowledge. Every blockchain, every rollup, everything in the world is going to be proven in ZK and we're going to throw cash at this problem, right?

And the industry, as we always do, got over its skis on it, right? This is what happened with ZK. And you realize, hey, this isn't as fast as we hoped it was. Even with GPU acceleration and custom chips, we're three, five years away from this taking over literally all compute. And we're still on that timeline, right? ZK is inordinately faster than it was a year ago. About an order of magnitude. And it's an order of magnitude faster than it was a year before that. An order of magnitude faster than it was before that. There is now a variety of commercial applications that ZK can be purposed for and is being purposed for.

things like defense, things like enterprise and obviously things like you know cheap block space on chain that were infeasible 12 to 24 months ago. Now can we prove every inference from you know uh Opus 4.5? Can we prove everything from Gemini 3? Can we prove everything from uh you know any major commercial model with with ZK right now? Probably not. Will we be able to in 12 to 24 months from now? I believe so. Right. We are approaching that point faster than ever before and I personally think it's going to be one of the largest economic opportunities that crypto has seen when everything is becomes effectively ZKI.

>> Yeah. Yeah man. I mean I I think [clears throat] that people are going to want this like like like now like people want this privacy aspect now. They want ZK to work now. Um, has it has the has the progress of the actual technology in terms of the proving uh costs and time has it significantly improved? Where are you at with like your your latest 2026 benchmarks? Yeah. So we've announced that we can prove uh Gemma 3, we can prove GPT architectures, we can we can prove um uh a variety of open commercial models uh with deep proof that are large LLMs. Mostly what we've been running is

kind of low uh 10 figure parameter models through our prover um and we can prove about one token per second right right now. um which you know it it is not as fast as we we think we will be able to in a year. We can assume 10 tokens per second in a year and 100 tokens per second in two years. Um but it's substantially faster than it was before. I agree with you that people want things now and that is why as a business there are use cases that are willing to accept latency and willing to pay a little bit more for verifiability and use cases that aren't. Right? If you are getting medical data and you want to ensure that it's private and verifiable so your patient doesn't, you know, have a life-threatening uh adverse effect, then you're willing to pay for that,

right? An extra, you know, 10 seconds and an extra, you know, $5 or $2 is not really going to to make or break you. But, you know, if you're if you're just, you know, vibe coding on Claude, we're not at the point that ZK is the right technology to just prove everything out right there, right? You don't really need verifiability. It's maybe a nice to have but doesn't really matter. And so that's where we are with ZK for at least AI super impactful super relevant for a variety of commercial use cases in high value sector things like defense healthcare finance and now approaching on things that are much more consumerry when that's where I think the big frontier will be within 12 24 months.

>> Yeah. What has been the the perception within the defense space when you bring them ZK you know what is are they cursory aware of it? would have been the is there much of a learning curve because it it it seems to me I we used to a couple months ago we would ask you know some of the crypto companies that were diving deeper into payments they were going and pitching banks and getting adoption it's like okay how do you guys pitch a bank DeFi and they would kind of walk us through you know where their learning know where their their uh knowledge base was and what what other things you know they needed to get through and overcome in order to understand really the value proposition here. But what has been the knowledge

base of of those in defense company and and how much have you had to overcome when you're explaining UK? >> When we first started talking to defense companies, a big part of my worry was they would not take us seriously, right? You know, very fortunately, we hired a fantastic lead of our defense go to market um who has a significant amount of experience. He's a military background and defense GTM background as well who's been architecting a lot of our defense GTM. But broadly, I was very concerned that we wouldn't be taken seriously because we're a crypto company. But it's a credit to the defense industry and the companies that we've spoken with that they're very willing to embrace new technology.

Right? The imperative is to win to build the best thing possible and ensure that they can effectuate uh whatever type of mission outcomes they need to by maximizing security and maximizing the capabilities that are available to American war fighters. And there is an incredible willingness across both uh the department of war, across DARPA, across government agencies and across uh you know defense companies, both primes and more the upstarts to actually embrace things that are available. Almost all of them have cryptographers on staff. Are they working on things like ZK, FHE, consensus? No, not most of them are not. But they understand what this stuff is. They have cryptography backgrounds. They have, you know, very

technical teams. They have research labs and they're very willing to find ways to try to purpose this to see if there is, you know, the potential to augment and improve on the security properties of their systems. >> Yeah. Yeah. That is very interesting, Rob. >> Well, I I I just I find it fascinating. I was reading about this last night and how, you know, right now in the current administration, we're taking a more top down approach and and Ishmail, you're absolutely right, like the objective is to win. >> Yes. >> Period. And we've heard that from the highest level of the government. And so they've chosen particular sectors where we want to win. AI, defense, uh crypto is another one.

>> Drone dominance. >> Drone dominance. And so we know that there's going to be significant investment not just in financial investment but also time and energy and resources that are deployed in winning in these particular categories. And so you saw this you allocated you know more time into going into this particular direction. Where do you go from here? How do you think we continue to develop K adoption into defense? And then broadly, what are there other categories that you're that you're tackling? You guys all in on defense? And if so, where does defense go from here as it gets more implemented?

>> Yeah, so this is a fantastic set of questions. We're a dual use company, right? So our ZK machine learning technology, Deep Proof, is valuable across both defense and commercial. Um, so we have a bunch of commercial partners across enterprise finance, across health care, across uh enterprise AI, and then we have a bunch of folks that we're working with in defense. We've announced that we're part of supplier ecosystems with some of the largest primes, and we've we've demoed open uh integrations with a variety of defense SDK environments. And there's a bunch of stuff we can't talk about because of NDAs and obviously other types of compliance requirements that are in place in defense, but we're very very excited about that category as one of our principal expansion areas over the next year. Um, now where we go from here, I think that there are other

problems in defense that are adjacent to zero knowledge proofs that also have tremendous commercial opportunities. um things like teameming and swarming right in contested environments is very much in our view a consensus and BFT problem right you have 10,000 drones they don't have an operator link and they need to be able to coordinate a mission outcome when any point in time you know k of those could be shot down or compromised right if I said hey I have a thousand nodes and I want to make sure that a bunch of them might be taken over or bad actors and I want them to reach an agreement over what to do you tell me consensus right that's how we think of it in crypto but that's an open problem in teaming and swarming for defense. Um, and that's an area that that that we as

a business are are taking some steps into right now. >> Love that, man. Um, curious from your perspective what what you think the like blockchain kind of intersection here is at play, right? So, kind of thinking thinking of this AI crypto category. Again, it was late 2024. We had this agentic kind of uh Twitter account phase that really ran this year or this past year. kind of came back but hasn't really came back like when you're thinking about uh in the context of this of this kind of AI ZK proving privacy uh lens as well as these kind of extrapolated categories being uh defense drones etc. Where do you see the most applicable blockchain or like use cases

for blockchain? We even had uh a bit of a robotics thesis conversation earlier with Grant from BlockMates about 2026 and and he kind of said like look I'm yet to really see how uh crypto rails are going to improve anything in robotics. Um how do you see this growing kind of physical and digital space with regards to AI? Obviously the ZK side, the privacy side, the proving side where do you really see this intersection happening? What is that going to look like? I think a lot of investors really want to allocate to this category.

They've they look at Bint Tensor, maybe they look at Lrange, they look at some other assets. Um, what are they what are we looking for from the investor perspective as far as where the real use case is for blockchain, what that kind of transition looks like. Um, give us a bit of lens from that perspective. Yeah, I the the taxonomy I like to use here is that blockchains and ancillary technology that's financed within the blockchain space are security technologies, right? It allows you to apply new types of security properties on top of uh you know effectively compute right you're able to provide verifiability with ZK in some aspects of privacy you're able to provide privacy

with FHE you're able to provide resilience and livveness guarantees with consensus and cryptocurrency is a mechanism for payment right it's a mechanism to transact and to store value effectively um and account for value and so the answer to where you're able to find value in the intersection of AI and crypto just comes down to where do you need efficient payments and where do you need security or privacy and so where I see those things being is the application of AI in enterprise contexts where there's not counterparty trust that's where security becomes very valuable right you know there there's no counterparty trust across large forms of AI systems used in defense right that's

the zero trust properties in the fence so it's useful Right? There's no counterparty trust between a large hospital and potentially a closed source LLM provider who doesn't want their data to be mined. Great application of blockchain technology. Um, and where do you need payments? Well, for large scale agent coordination, I think that's going to be one of the most natural use cases for it. I I think a little bit of this um also data aggregation and data collection is another fantastic use case, right? How do we allow mass payments for data across, you know, thousands of heterogeneous countries and or hundreds of heterogeneous countries and, you know, tens of thousands or millions of heterogeneous actors?

Another fantastic use case. But I think what it all boils down to is where do you need efficient payments and where do you need uh augmented security and privacy? Ishma last thing from my end is um you know just where do you think we are 2026 if you're looking back at the end of the year any predictions um in the defense space the ZK space or you know crypto as a as a whole um what are you most looking forward to this year and uh and and yeah any thoughts >> what I'm looking forward to is seeing smart people tackle hard problems the big issue that crypto has had specifically towards the you know early to mid part of last year and definitely in 2024 was very very smart people

tackling things that were not very hard because it was profitable to do things that were easy. That's not compelling and that's not a good use of intellectual capital. We're seeing within uh traditional tech a shift away from building, you know, food delivery apps and Slack clones and SAS rappers into people solving hard problems, drone dominance, hypersonic missiles, nuclear fuel, things like this, you know, rare mineral refining, domestic semiconductor production, right? And we're seeing that same trend in crypto. People who are raising capital to do things that have substantive value, things that generate revenue. You know, there's companies that are doing energy infrastructure.

There's there's Deepin doing wireless networks. You know, there's companies like us that are focusing on that intersection of defense, AI, and crypto or crypto infrastructure. This is the type of thing that I think will have substantial growth this next year. The easy money has been flushed out post 1010. In my view, what's left is allocators who want to deploy directionally into things that have real fundamentals with the capacity to generate meaningful long-term returns. >> Yeah, man. We're calling this NEO finance. This intersection this Yeah. Good. Honestly, the the reception's been bullish, so I'm pretty excited. Um Yeah, we're calling this Neo Finance. It's this intersection between legacy finance and DeFi. Um, it it's the it's kind of

got multiple enemies here. You know, it's just really all about what's been done in the past, whether it be within the industry or just like kind of legacy finance and the way that that works. Closing out here for for the AI ZK category. What are some of the teams that you've seen pop up in in in the last six six months really or even like even more recently whether you're partnering with them? Teams that you're excited about in this AI crypto space uh or in in in the ZK and defense space that you're working with that you can talk about.

>> Give us a sense of like where we should be paying attention in the sector. >> Yeah, this is a great question. I would say that to start with the amount of risk financing that's moving into ZK and cryptography is an all-time low, right? There's very few early stage companies we see raising with with ZK anymore. It's almost all the incumbents with the AIX crypto intersection. We have a lot of great partners there who I think are fantastic. I think Centi's an amazing team. I think our friends at Mera are a great team. Um I think uh uh I'm trying to think who else. I think Aether is a great product.

Um I think a lot of these GPU marketplaces are interesting. Open mind I think is a great play in the robotic side. Um all of this stuff I think is very exciting. Now, in defense, I mean, there's just almost too many companies to name, but I think a lot of the work with Andre and Shield kind of at the top of the space is really really good. I think some of the work with Archer is doing with like EV tall powertrains like they were using and and Omen drone is also very exciting. Obviously, they're they're a dual use company. They're also doing commercial. Um, but we like them a lot. Um, and then I think that there's a lot of work being done in defense for lowcost, easy to produce domestic uh, domestically produced military equipment, things like cheap mass

production of drones, the US's answer kind of for for DJI drones. And I think that's an area that I'm very excited about. Right? There's this interesting cost trade-off in defense that I always like to talk about where, you know, if you have to spend a million dollars to shoot down a thousand dollar DJI drone, you really are not going to win long term because you can saturate air defenses very fast. It's an economics problem. And so this is why you need to be able to produce largecale uh domestic armaments that are lowcost things like and barracudas. Um, these are, you know, obviously, uh, I think 200,000 a missile and way way cheaper for shooting down lowcost armaments or lowcost um, stories.

>> Well, well, thanks for that, man. Uh, I I I hope the investors that are listening that are interested uh, are able to check those out. Ishmael, congrats on the great work with Lrange. Guys, this has been our AI supercycle episode 16 powered by our friends at Near, the leading private AI chain in crypto. Ismail, thanks for joining us, guys. We'll take a quick commercial break and we've got BitMine's 2026 annual shareholder meeting live on the Rollup TV next. It has officially just started, guys. We're going to take a super quick break and we'll be playing that for you guys live. Stick around.

See you guys soon. Thank you guys. >> Thank you, Ishmail. I'll see you soon. [music] >> Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. from the team that pioneered cold storage.

Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if [music] you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. [music] Get a treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with Relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link link to bridge your assets. Now [music] >> guys, the moment you've all been waiting for. Bit mine 2026 annual shareholder meeting is live on Rollup TV. We are

about to kick it off, guys. We're going to be going full screen. If you're here watching on YouTube, we are in the chat. We are checking it out. If you're on Twitter, smash that like button. Hit the retweet. let people know Tom Lee is about to get on and the verdict of the shareholder vote is going to be announced which will have an impact on the price of your favorite asset not only just BMR but ETH which is sitting at 3297.5 right now guys the shareholder meeting is on standby is not quite started yet uh we will be playing it directly when it does Rob what do you expect from the BitMine shareholder meeting today any surprises that you expect from today.

I >> think the biggest surprise was Tom Lee buying $200 million of M. >> Yeah, you got to think he's going to comment on that. >> No one had that on their bingo card. >> So, I think we're going we're going to get an explanation. And like I said earlier, I think all we've heard up until this point has been uh theory. And so, uh, I'm I'm curious to hear it directly from Tom Lee, uh, about why he made this transaction and and also why they decided to announce it the same day as their shareholder meeting. It feels like, you know, they're trying to get people excited. They're trying to make a lot of noise, get people out there to vote.

Remember, a lot of times when it comes to the votes that that they're holding at this meeting, the issue is not uh getting an acceptance, you know, getting more than 50% of the people to vote yes. It's actually getting enough people out to begin with. They uh oftentimes don't meet the minimum people required and the minimum votes uh that are required uh in order to affect a change. So even if it is an overwhelming positive result, you need to get people out to vote. So I'm looking forward to the vote. Uh I hope a lot of people uh do end up participating and I'm looking forward to an expectation or an explanation as to why uh Bitm participating in Beast Industries.

>> All right guys, we're going to pull it up. Uh it's ready to go and we are going to get started. The stream will begin very soon. >> Man, the myth, the legend, the only one Thomas Jay Lee. >> Joining us right now is Fun Strats Tom Lee. >> Tom Lee. >> Thomas Lee. >> Tom Lee. Ladies and gentlemen, Tom Lee. I think you're a guiding light. Tom, what do you want to be Tom Lee? >> From trading floors to global stages. Tom Lee has been traveling the world, breaking [music] down markets, crypto, and the future of Ethereum. >> Ethereum is the future of finance. >> City to city, stage to stage, [music] Bitine isn't watching the future, it's building it. Buckle up. Tom Lee is on the way for the ride of your life with

E. Dollar dominance is going to be the opportunity of Ethereum. Bit mine has over 12 billion worth of Ethereum. Bit [music] mine is on a mission to become one of the largest crypto treasuries in the world. >> Everyone loves a good [music] Tom Rice target. >> This isn't momentum, it's [music] inevitability. >> Ethereum is the base layer of the future financial system. Coming up hot for a minute. [music] >> Guided by the alchemy of 5%. Ethereum as the core treasury.

>> Ethereum to me is [music] the new Wall Street. >> The more Ethereum that's accumulated, the more secure the network is. >> Tom Lee from your lips. >> Made in America validator [music] network. Maven is coming. staking, decentralized finance, compounding [music] by design. We are bringing these to you right here in Las Vegas. Welcome to the BitMine shareholders meeting. Introducing Tom Lee. [music] [applause] [cheering] And now, please welcome Bit Chairman of the Board of Directors, Tom Lee.

>> [music] >> Yeah. [cheering] >> Uh well, welcome everyone. That was uh quite an introductory video. Um and it's my first time seeing it because Marcy wanted to make it a surprise. Um I've got a presentation. Uh but before I dive into it, I just want to make some sort of opening comments. um especially because those on the live stream are just hearing us uh begin this. So uh first I do want to recognize the folks that organized and put this shareholder meeting together in Las Vegas. So that's Marcy Simon of Agent of Change and her team over there.

[applause] at at the end of this sort of programming content, Marcy will come on stage and explain some of the other fun things that are going to follow uh the formal presentation of some of the content. Uh I do want to recognize uh several constituents that are behind BitMine. So I'm going to start with the board of directors, which if you can all just stand up at once uh if you don't mind, there's going to be seven standing up.

Okay great. Uh, board of directors [applause] and I'd like to recognize those from BitMine's executive management team. Uh, so everyone who is from Bitmine, please just stand up. [applause] Great. Um, I'd also like to recognize uh some key partners for us. Uh, one of them is Mosaic's Capital. And if there's folks from Mosaics here, if you could stand up, I believe there should be a couple.

[applause] I see some hands waving in the back. Yeah. Okay. Uh, of course, our outside council, Mike Blankenship, and the team from Winston Straw. They've been critical critical partners uh as we forge as a crypto treasury. So Mike and and Mike was up here with me earlier, but where's Mike and team? >> They're back there. Okay. [applause] And uh I recognize a couple of pipe investor, original pipe investors here, uh Seth and others. So if you are part of the original pipe, could you please stand? And I see Adam here. Um please stand up. These guys uh helped us fund

the initial transformation of Bitmine. I believe I see Ash from the Ethereum Foundation here. So Ash, could you please stand up? Ash is from the Ethereum Foundation. Uh okay. And then of course I'm not going to ask all the stockholders to stand up, but I do want to recognize you guys because one, uh I appreciate you making the journey out here. It's the first ever shareholders meeting we have. We tried to make this a fun event for you and we have some content for you to learn. Uh but uh it really means a lot to us because uh we're here to serve the shareholders and really do write by the

stock. Okay. So let me just click forward on this presentation. Okay. So uh I put together a presentation for our annual stockholder meeting. And here's some disclaimers. Again, just like the proxy statement. I hope you read it lineto line. And but here's the agenda. I want to give you a recap of 2025, which was the year that we transformed Bitmine.

I want to give you an update in progress about the alchemy of 5% and what it could mean. Uh I do want to spend a lot of time talking about the four pillars of growth to drive stockholder value and this is going to apply to 2026 and beyond. Uh then I want to go back to why Ethereum is the future of finance and of course that we've got the team in place to drive transformation. Okay, I think it's a year we need to recap 2025 because the year was where a lot of digital asset treasuries came onto the scene by our count over 80.

But in that 12-month period, by the end of last year, we have now seen the emergence of what I would call dominant debts. Okay. Uh first just a reminder uh I want you to think about holding periods. Uh at Fundstrat we first wrote about Bitcoin in 2017 and let's look at how Bitcoin has and at that time we said you'd want to own 1% of Bitcoin. Um and let's see how it did compared to other assets. And a lot of these other assets I would still own.

But as you can see, Bitcoin in that time period that's passed has gone from $960 through September 26, which we just want to record before the liquidation event, 109,000. That's 112 times return. It outperformed Nvidia, which went from $2 to 178, which is massive already, 65x. It beat NASDAQ. It beat gold which was went from 1100 to three 3,800 and it beat the S&P which went from 2200 to 6600. So uh if you put 1% into Bitcoin that was a good insurance bet because it

really crushed everything else. Uh but Ethereum did even better. You can see Ethereum went from $8 to 3900. That's almost a 490 times return. Okay. But last year, crypto kind of disappointed. You can see gold did great, the MAG 7 did well, NASDAQ did well, S&P did well, and you can see Bitcoin and Ethereum actually were down for the year. So, in some ways, it made many people wonder, is a crypto winter started or was even last year a crypto winter?

Keep in mind that crypto was doing great until October 10th of last year. So, Ethereum was up 40% and Bitcoin was up 33%. But then we had the crypto mass liquidation event. A trillion dollars of value was wiped out. As many of you know, it was the largest deleveraging event in the history of crypto, even bigger than what happened with FTX. And they estimate over two million crypto accounts uh were wiped out, went to zero. And uh many market makers and even crypto exchanges had their balance sheets hurt. So the industry since October 10th has been limping along. In

2022, November 2022 when FTX collapsed, it took uh eight weeks before the market began to show signs of life. So if you asked us this year, it's a larger event, but when would crypto begin to maybe find its bottom, it would be December 10th. And uh you know, post October 10th, as you can see, Ethereum fell basically by half and Bitcoin fell by 36%. Um, so here we are. But if you kind of squint, you can see since the late December, Bitcoin and Ethereum have begun to claw their way back. Okay, now think about that. It was the largest

liquidation event in the history of the crypto industry. So crypto treasuries were built to go public and outperform ETFs by buying crypto. And since October 31, only two crypto companies bought any crypto in size. Micro Strategy from December 31 to the end of the year bought 2.9 billion worth of Bitcoin, which is a lot. Metanet bought 330 million of Bitcoin.

And among the Ethereum treasuries, only one crypto treasury bought any Ethereum, which was Bitmine, which bought $2.4 four billion dollars worth of Ethereum and in fact two Ethereum treasuries actually sold Ethereum. Okay, so if you think about accretion by buying ETH accreatively or buying Bitcoin accretively, it's only two companies. Now let's think about other dimensions about Ethereum Treasury dominance. One is just the size of the balance sheet, dollar value of Ethereum held. Uh these numbers of course are a little stale. Um but Bitmine is around 13 billion and that is basically five times larger

than the next largest Ethereum treasury. But the lifeblood of a crypto treasury is trading volume. Bit mine trades $1.6 billion a day. And as you know, we publish weekly stats, but routinely Bitmine is a top 50 most traded stock in America. Top 50. As you can see, that's 14 times larger than number two in crypto treasury. So, if you're looking at what institutions want, institutions want a really liquid stock that they can buy without disturbing the price. Well, we trade a billion six a day. So they can, you know, they can buy a billion dollars in

a day, but the next smallest crypto ETH treasury only trades $100 million today. It would be very hard for them to put a billion dollars to work. So again, that's the comparative dominance. And so uh my takeaway is in 2025 because of October 10th, it has shown who are the dominant crypto treasuries. and and it really in my mind is two Micro Strategy and Bitmine and uh between the two of us it's 90% of all crypto trading volume uh for DATs.

So the other 78 companies represent 10% of the volume. Okay. So let's uh jump to part two which is the companies made rapid progress on getting to 5% of Ethereum. So that [clears throat] was our mission statement on June 30th when we launched the Ethereum Treasury funded by our PIPE investors, two of which are here today. And uh in those ensuing six seven months, as you can see, we wanted to get to six million ETH tokens.

And in six months, we're at 4.2 million ETH. So we're 68% of the way to 5%. We originally thought this would take five years, but we're 68% of the way there in seven months. Now, oh, [applause] thank you. Um, now we have cash, a billion dollars of cash on the balance sheet. So, if we add the cash and said, let's buy Ethereum with the cash, we would have four and a half million ETH tokens. uh which means we're 75% of the way to the alchemy 5%. So we believe if you believe this trajectory

uh bit mine should cross 5% sometime this year assuming the seven months continue to hold and as you can see uh we studied uh the blue chip standard for crypto treasury which is micro strategy and as you can see here we have 13 billion of ETH including cash in roughly seven months. At the same point, Micro Strategy had 3.4 billion of Bitcoin. In fact, we accumulate as much Ethereum as Strategy accumulated, which took them roughly 1300 days or four years.

Okay. So, now that we've stacked some ETH, uh I I think you need to think because many of you might get angry at us because I've seen it on Twitter. like Tom, if you got E, then don't do anything else. You're just going to stake it. Okay. Um, but then I think you're misunderstanding what happens if you have uh a substantial stake as a and especially as a validator, you know, in a proof ofstake network um in one of the most important blockchains in the world today. I mean, Ethereum in our view is going to be the future of finance. So, we have 5%.

Imagine like someone saying, "Hey, there's this really tall kid, okay? He's like a like seven feet tall, so we're just going to have him clean gutters because he's so tall." You know, like the you your best use, best return should be like, "Oh, he should be a basketball player or something, right?" Not a roof cleaner. Okay? So, that's what I'm saying. You have to imagine if you own 5% of Ethereum and it's the most important blockchain in the world and it's going to be the future of finance and it'll be the settlement layer for almost everything else. I don't know if you'd want us to just be staking ETH and then that's it. And like but that's what a lot of people on

many of you might even think that's what you want. But let me just try to open your imagination to some things uh to that would make sense first. Uh when we made our first presentation about Bitmine, we gave you this roadmap. We said uh we're going to have a made in America validator network. We're going to be a community participant especially with the Ethereum foundation and uh Ash who uh was one of the key folks there. Uh we also wanted to do moonshots.

Okay, these are select investment and ideas that would really enhance the future value of Ethereum. And of course, we want to get to 5% of ETH. So, I want to focus on uh this moonshots. And at the time we wrote this in our first presentation from July, we said we would use up to 5% of the balance sheet to do moonshots. Now, 5% today is $700 million. So you you should realize we've been giving you this idea that we would take 5% of the balance sheet, 700 million, and our balance sheet will grow, but we want to do moonshots that will strengthen Ethereum's competitive position.

So uh today we announced one of the moonshots. Okay, you might be confused. So I'll explain to you why this is not confusing. Okay, we made a $200 million investment into Beast Industries. I would say if someone said, "What are you expecting to accomplish?" If this was just like, "Hey, I'm going to make a $200 million bet into Beast." Nobrainer. Okay. Because he is uh I'm gonna skip around. I'm gonna jump because he is the iconic content creator of our generation. There is nobody uh

more important to Gen Z, Gen Alpha, and millennials. Now, I'm looking at the room, okay, I'm going to guess, okay, that the represented population of Gen Z, Gen Alpha is not here, okay? Uh because otherwise you guys would be using a lot of slang I don't understand. Um, I see some millennials, but I see a lot of Gen X and a lot of baby boomers. Okay, so the thing is is that you might think that we have gone off the rails, but that's not the thing. Okay, Mr.

Beast is the number one content creator of the world. And if you're not following how important he is, first of all, he has a billion followers. Okay, a billion. Like one, there's seven billion people on this planet. He has one in seven people following him. But I'm gonna say I only think there's three million people with like internet accounts. He has like a third of all people that are on the internet following him. That's that's reach. For instance, he has the only person with more followers that are celebrities is uh Ronaldo. Cristiano Ronaldo. Okay. And of all the creators,

he is a billion. The next is I can't really read the name if he's I need my magnifiers. Okay, 300 million. He is a giant among content creators. In fact is nobody's going to be able to become Mr. Beast again. Uh there's I would say it's almost impossible for someone to in the next 10 years to get a billion followers. and he's created this organically. In fact, if you look at YouTube usage, Mr. Beast has more viewership than Walt Disney or Netflix or NBC or Paramount Fox, Warner Brothers or Amazon.

Nobody wa is nobody's more watched in streaming world than Mr. Beast. Okay? And uh think about that for a minute. And the Super Bowl, which is like considered, you know, the global event, gets 256 million views on that event. Every twice a month, Mr. Beast puts out a video and each one gets 252 million views.

His content is more watched than the Super Bowl. Okay. So he has 535 million views a month out of his billion followers. They are super engaged. And now he does all these collaborations. That's the key word. Okay? He collaborates with all these people that you might care about somewhere on this grid. Okay? But he does content with them. And uh guess what? Uh well actually let me just jump forward.

Well yeah let me back up then. Okay so that's where it comes with us. So again I'm going to start with what I just said. So if it was just a $200 million investment guys this is a no-brainer. This guy is the most important content creator in the world and Bitmine was invited to invest in their capital structure. Look at who else is allowed to invest. Social Capital, which is Chimoth, Alpha Wave, Mr. Beast himself, he owns 51% of the company. We're the largest corporate and strategic investor in his company.

So, we are big. Okay. [applause] What do I think that investment's worth? Okay. I can make a forge statement because I'm not Beast Industries, but I think we're gonna easily make a moonshot return on that, you know, 10x, but that's not the reason. Okay, so he's the number one content creator and now we have substantial call option value on any future consumer service developed by each. Okay, now I want to read what Jeff Howenbold, their CEO, um, actually stated. Sorry, I'm gonna

have to pull this up on my phone. Um, about this investment that we made. And I want you to listen carefully to his words. Okay. What he said was, "We are excited to welcome Tom Lee and Bitmine as new investors in Beast Industries, joining our current top tier venture investors. And we're not a venture investor. We're a strategic corporate. Their support is a strong validation of our vision, strategy, and growth trajectory. and it provides additional capital to achieve our goal to become the most impactful entertainment brand in the world. Okay, so we're helping them get

to their goal. We look forward to exploring ways to further collaborate, see that's the word, and incorporate DeFi into our upcoming financial services platform. So, think about this. Uh, if you want Ethereum to be part of the future of finance, it kind of makes sense to have a connection to the most important content creator in the world. Okay. So, again, if you were angry and you downvoted our investment in Mr. Beast, you're allowed to change your downvote. Um, okay. So, I just want to explain the potential synergy. So, you have uh, okay, someone says the number one investor for retail investors. Okay, me

the number one holder of Ethereum in the world. Okay, we own more Ethereum than anybody and it's the future of finance plus the number one content creator in the world. I mean guys, that's the option value. I mean, that's the moonshot potential and that's what we just put Bitmine on a trajectory for another moonshot beyond just the money we earn from staking. Okay. Now, lastly, uh if you want to know where we could have potential collaborations, I'll give you some thoughts. For instance, do any of you guys watch Beast Games?

>> Okay. Like, it's huge. Uh it's the number one show in 80 countries. Number one show in 80 countries. 144 million people watched it in the first 25 days. It's the number one script unscripted show in Prime Video history. 50 million families watched it in the first 25 days. I mean, this is driving Amazon growth and it broke 67 world records. Well, would it make sense for BitMine to be a sponsor partner with Mr. Beast in one of the episodes, right? That makes perfect sense. Well, that's what we're going to have synergy from by being their largest corporate

strategic investor. And by the way, uh something that the Mosaics partners and I met from their here and Shen's missing. Uh but one of the things that was super compelling to us is that the corporate values of Beast Industries, if you're not aware, they are a very philanthropic group. Uh Mr. Beast himself is extremely charitable. Beast philanthropy has grown into one of the biggest giving engines in the world. Okay. They've raised hundreds of millions of dollars for things like refugees food prosthetics surgeries.

Uh it's incredible. So, we have corporate values aligned again with what I think is the most important content creator in the world. Okay. So hopefully, and I took a lot of time to explain that, you understand this was a smart move, okay? We're not doing something crazy uh with shareholder capital. And they're growing, by the way. Uh look at his follower count is up 30% year-over-year. I mean, pretty soon his follower count's going to include like Mars inhabitants because he's going to cover the whole planet, right? after 7 billion or it'll be like you know frozen eggs and stuff um and 41% growth uh of views.

Okay, so that takes us back to our strategy going forward. We have four pillars of growth because again I don't think as shareholders you want us to just simply be staking ETH and buying ETH especially as we get close to 5%. So let [snorts] me explain to you our four pillars of growth. The first is to maximize yield on Ethereum. Okay. So we're going to optimize the staking yield. The Caesar benchmark is 2.8. We're going to try to do better.

One way we do it, at least one way that we've talked about it is to pursue alpha strategies. Now the the entity that'll execute this for us is Mosaic's Capital. But we also have an adviser Tom Demarc of Demarc Analytics for those who are boomers or older Gen X. Tom Demar is iconic. He is the one of the most famous market timing people. He has won so many awards. He only has two clients. I believe he's disclosed. Well, I don't think he's disclosed his first client, so I'm not gonna name it. We are his only other client. And I showed you that slide where we bought 2.4 billion of ETH

in the last two months. Tom Demar's strategies along with Mosaic's execution probably saved us $400 million on those purchases. So think about that. We bought ETH in a way that made you guys money. So don't shake your fist at ETH when it's down. We like it when it's declining. Okay. All right. Um, but here's where I can give you some imagination. We have 13 billion of E. So imagine proposal two didn't pass and we're stuck in the water. We don't buy another dollar of ETH for the rest of the

history of the company. But using the staking yield and with some optimization that would generate 367 to 390 million a year in rewards. We have a billion in cash that would generate another 35 to 40 million. The company will generate 400 to $433 million a year in pre-tax income. That's more than a million dollars a day. Uh and that's been achieved in six months. I think a company that goes from zero to in seven months, a company that can make 400 million a year, uh that's quite an achievement. But of course, thank you for the stockholders for getting us here.

But let's think about uh a future scenario. Let's say that ETH's price stays at 3,000, but we get to 5% of ETH. That number rises to 542 million to 583 million. But I think ETH is grossly undervalued. Okay, let's say a proper price for ETH is 12,000. Okay, and I'll explain in a later section how I get to 12. Then the annual rewards and interest jump to 2 billion to 2.2 billion. Okay, that would make us one of the 20 most profitable companies in America. So,

or maybe 30 at most, but it's really up there. Okay. So, that's why if our vision is correct on Ethereum, uh, and we're generating this level of rewards and income, you don't want us to just be a staking entity. Okay. So, that gets us to the second, which is we want to invest in moonshots. So far, we've done two. We will do more. Orbs and Worldcoin. We want to accelerate tokenization products. We want to work with the L2s and the DeFi, the leading projects, uh, including something like Lighter. And we'll I'm going to have a fireside chat with Vlad today about Lighter and why you really should pay attention to

Lighter and its token. And, uh, you know, we're really excited about this uh, Beast Industries moonshot. Okay. But, uh, just to remind you, Bitmine invested in Akco $20 million. Okay Worldcoin. It was founded in 2019 by Sam Alman, who's the Open AI CEO, and Alex Blania. They have built uh an incredible technology for proof of human. It is the only way to verify your humanity today uh using an iris scan. They're not scanning your iris. They're using your iris to create a cryptographic hash, but that is unique. out of seven billion

people, that would be the only number cryptographically unique identification. It's the only thing more secure is a fingerprint. And uh AO's done well. They hold 10% of the circulating supply of World Coin, 11,000 ETH, 69 million cash, and they verified 17 million humans. The World Coin app, if you haven't downloaded it, it's it's almost an omni app. It's that good. And uh they've done some cool pilot pilot partnerships to do proof of human verification sort of a single sign on with Kraken and Coinbase. And they've also made strategic investments into something like Mythical.

Okay. Um and of course you know tokenization uh is the future and that's why we want to do moonshots uh into tokenization. I might fork this conversation for a bit to explain to you tokenization um because I think people are underestimating how important it is. Tokenization uh does give you fractional ownership, reduce cost and efficiency, 247 trading, enhanced transparency and security, increased liquidity. Okay, but I think it's really taking Wall Street uh into the future. Okay, so it's a huge evolution and in fact Larry Frink uh said it's the

biggest innovation since double ledger accounting. He's the CEO of Black Rockck. So I'll just give you some examples of tokenization and I'm sorry this is taking longer than expected but I had to explain to you Mr. Beast. Um so first uh to tokenize something you could just do fractional ownership. So you could say take the painting and fractionalize it and this is what you own. But what we believe is more important is to factoriize an asset. So let's say you took the painting, you broke it down into the colors. Okay? And it' be the equivalent like take a company and break it down to its components. Then you can decide that you just want to own a factor. So I'll give you an example for Tesla.

You can time tokenize the company. You can base it on remember Tesla stock price is the sum of all future earnings. You could pick a single earnings year to own. It's a product tokenization. You could break it into its products, the present value products. You can do geographic tokenization and you can tokenize the financial statement. Okay, let's give an example of time. Here's the all the future earnings of Tesla and let's and we know Elon Musk gets paid on his 2036 earnings. Okay. So, you might just want to buy the earnings for that year because he's going to obviously have some enormous upside number to get paid and that would be a lottery ticket

because imagine you don't own any of the earnings for Tesla for the next nine years and you just own it for the 10th year. That's a huge way to make a bet. If you believe in Elon Musk, that would probably be the bet I would make and you wouldn't pay a lot for it because it's 10 years from now. You can product tokenize. You know, he's got EVs, robo taxi. I I left off Optimus Prime. Full self-driving solar and remember this. If you look at Tesla's stock price, it's the sum of all the future product streams that are here. I forgot Optimus Prime. And then what? Then there's going to be this plug, which is the growth of Tesla in the future, which is Elon's brain. You can just make a bet on Elon's brain in the future. Okay, that's the

kind of tokenization that can happen with smart contracts. And uh and that's what I think a company like lighter that project could be the ones working with us to develop these tokenized products. That would be a future moonshot, right? Uh we also the third pillar of growth is we want to productize Bitmine. There's an app coming. Uh we have a huge community of dedicated shareholders and uh the Bitine brand is strong. Uh it's interesting when we uh did the initial transformation for Bitmine, we're like, "Wait, we're an Ethereum treasury company. Why?" And that was Bitmine was a Bitmine mining company.

Shouldn't we change the name? Well, seven months later, I think we like the Bitmine name. We're going to keep it. And of course, I've got a Bitmine uh lapel pin here. So, uh so an app is coming and [snorts] it's being developed by outside technical team. Now you might wonder what are we going to offer on it? That's what you have to wait to find out. Okay. Okay. So next the the final pillar of growth uh is that we're going to bridge tradi and defi and tradi means traditional finance and consumer services.

again because we believe Ethereum is going to be the future settlement layer and the future of finance and we're the largest holder of Ethereum. We should act as that bridge. We're the top 50 most traded stock. Maven when it launches is going to be the largest staking entity in the world. So once we launch Maven, we're the biggest staking operator in the world. I mean think about that. Like we're not going to be small fry trying to get Marsh. We'll be the biggest. And that means we can actually act as a settlement layer for a lot of other for Ethereum and maybe other tokens as well.

Uh so Maven, as you know, it's going to be best-in-class staking. Um again, we're really don't want to dulge too many details before we reveal it, but this is what we've told you so far. Okay, so you can see where things sit. We're the largest holder of Ethereum in the world. We're going to bridge things in finance and in DeFi. Uh so you should you realize the road map's quite optimistic ahead for us. Uh I'm gonna have to fly through this because I I think I am running over time. Um so Ethereum is the future of finance. Okay.

Um let me fly take us to this slide. >> I am okay. Um, if you're going to think about Ethereum's price, you should think of it as its relative importance versus Bitcoin because the ETH BTC ratio is essentially saying, is Ethereum doing better than digital gold? And as the ratio goes up, that means smart contracts are more valuable than digital gold. And so that's how you should think about that price ratio. And currently, Ethereum to BTC is 0.03. 034 63. Okay.

In 2021, that ratio was 0.08727. In my opinion, and many opinions uh of the team here at Bitmine, Ethereum is more useful now than it was in 2021. I mean, the fees have come down, the amount of developers has expanded vastly. a use case has massively emerged of just stable coins and now there's tokenization and of course there's going to be a bridge into the consumer through things like beast industries right so uh in fact standard charter which is we think uh we've seen a lot of Wall

Street research I think Jeffrey Kendrick does some of the best work he says 2026 is the year of Ethereum he sees the ETH BTC ratio returning to its 2021 highs. Okay, so he's using that metric. Okay, well let's think about that ratio. Uh there's three sets of columns here. Okay, see the middle set of green. Okay. Uh yeah, I mean it's a little hard to see on the screen. So that's the 20 21 high ratio 00873.

And then we put a little horizontal line because we expect Bitcoin to get to 250,000 this year. So if Bitcoin gets to 250,000 and Ethereum trades at its high relative to Bitcoin, Ethereum's at 22,000 and it's currently 3,200. So you see the massive upside in Ethereum. Well, is that good or bad for Bitmine stock? See, I went to Bloomberg, did what they call a historical correlation.

The x- axis is Ethereum's price since July. The y- axis is Bitmine's stock price. And you can see if Ethereum's price goes up, Bitmine's stock price goes up. So, the correlation is like 90 something percent. Which makes like intuitive sense. Okay. Well, let's shrink that a little bit and say, what if Ethereum gets to 22,000? What does this trend line project to? $500 price for Bitmine.

If Ethereum gets to 62,000, the stock price is 1,500. And of course, if Joe Luben is correct, which uh as you know, he's been dedicated to Ethereum, and I think he has a good argument for it. He thinks Ethereum gets to 250,000. Bit mine stock price is 5,000. First of all, that's why we need these share authorization because I mean how many people can buy 5,000 share like you know people are going to buy like one share or 0.1 shares, right? Uh so that's the upside. Um and then finally uh we have a strong team which I already introduced uh but you know here are uh some of the members of the executive team. So, uh, I think that the presentation might have created some

questions for you guys here. So, I think we're going to have a few questions. So, if you have a question, raise your hand. However, please do not ask about the shareholder vote. That's already concluded. >> I see a hand there. >> Thank you for the question. >> Oh, I think there's a microphone. >> Oh, thank you so much for the question, Mr. Chairman. Um, crypto holders will know the slogan, not your keys, not your crypto. How does Bitmine custody their private keys and prevent them being stolen or absconded, you know etc.?

>> Uh, it's a great question and it's a question for all the crypto treasuries. Um, as you know, crypto is a bearer instrument. What does that mean? Like if you buy crypto directly, you now have a private key that you're responsible for uh and you can access it if you remember if you memorize the cryptographic hash or you have a password uh or some seed phrases or whatever. Now you met the executive team here. None of us has a memory to memorize all the cryptographic keys, especially buying 14 billion worth of ETH. Um, so we do not custody the Ethereum ourselves. We use

recognized and regulated custodians. Um, now we do not name our vendors uh for security reasons, but again, if you're if you want to try to shake us down tonight, none of us has the private keys. Um so and uh you know it's the same structure as Micro Strategy. U Michael Sailor uh does not keep a ledger wallet in his um pocket um for his 59 billion of ETH. He uses the same custodians for but for obvious reasons I I don't want to tell you more than that.

>> Okay, I see a couple questions here. >> Thanks Mr. I was wondering what does Vitalik Bhuturan think about Bidmine immersion? What's his take on it? >> Uh well, I've met Vitalik. Uh you know, Vitalik's very diplomatic because he doesn't want to bless winners and losers and um you know, but he also recognizes the importance of community and users and he has a vision around Ethereum. He doesn't necessarily believe Ethereum is created to become the next monetary system.

However, it is literally the the blockchain that's best for the the future monetary system. There's a reason why JP Morgan is building their money market tokenized fund on Ethereum and and why Robin Hood is tokenizing stocks on Ethereum and Black Rockck is doing tokenized funds on Ethereum. So these do not make Vitalics unhappy. Now Ash, who's been one of our uh folks that have really connected us to the Ethereum Foundation, he might be willing to uh share us what he would be saying secondhand what Vitalik might think about Ethereum. I don't know if you're willing to and Bitmine. I don't know if Ashe if you want to make any comments.

Okay, thanks. Uh, thanks Tom. Um, I think what's key with Bitmine and what's key with Bit Mine and other DATs um is that they are bridging the gap between Wall Street uh and what has been built over the last 10 years. Now, I think Tom's been a key proponent here. if Ethereum was to have an investor relations man. He is the chief of investor relations of Ethereum. Um IR at ethereum.org.

>> No. So it's great and I think Ethereum will store most of the world's value at some point in time. And if you think about a technology that is storing most of the world's value, tokenization as Tom was talking about, um that is where the collateral will exist and that is where the capital efficiency the world um you know the world's financial system will um exist. So I think Tom's a big proponent and uh driving Bitine and global adoption of Ethereum. So from that perspective, I think he's a key key stakeholder as is Bitmine.

>> Yeah. And just to emphasize, I don't think Vitalic wants to pick winners and losers. So I don't think he views us as any more important than any other Ethereum DAT. And I think that's important because as you know, we don't want like if you look at traditional equity markets, you don't want policy makers to pick winners and losers. You want the market to make that decision. So, so I I really respect uh Vitalik's view. Okay, other there's a few more questions. So, uh can we hit this gentleman?

>> Hi. Um my question is about the current legislations it's processing through the our government and specifically [clears throat] if you would address this issue of the banks not wanting uh stable coins to uh owners of stable coins to receive a yield. >> Uh yes uh this gentleman's referring to the clarity act which is making its way through congress. Um I think some of the crypto industry and some of the lobbying groups that we work with are not happy with the current some of the current proposals. Uh I don't really want to say too many things because remember the audience who's watching the stream are people in

the crypto industry uh but also people in the traditional banking industry and I I don't want to have another I don't want to have a bullseye on my back. Um, so, uh, but what I would say is it's you realize the crypto industry and the traditional Wall Street banks have very different objectives when it comes to crypto regulation because the traditional banks want to stack it in their favor. They want to make it harder to be a new entrant and they want to make it easy for them for the banks to dominate by being like a big bully and saying, "Hey, listen all you little uh pygmies, I just entered the room and it's my game."

Whereas the new entrance want uh a level playing field. They want the best projects to win. Um, and it's already kind of been happening in crypto. Like Tether, if you guys know, Tether is the issuer of the USDT. They have 100 30 maybe 100, I'm sorry, 180 billion of USDT outstanding. Let's say it's 190 billion. There's $19 trillion of dollar supply out there.

So, Tether has 1% of the money supply. Is that right? Yeah. 1%. But Tether is going to earn close to 20 billion by making a stable coin for 1% of all US dollar supply. That makes it the like sixth most profitable bank in the world. And its market value would be number two only to JP Morgan. So this cryptonative stable coin issuer is suddenly like the second biggest bank in the world. They only have like 300 employees. JP Morgan has 300,000.

A cryptonative company using blockchain as settlement. And by the way, most of Tether runs on Ethereum is like a better bank than a bank. So you can see why Clarity Act is it's kind of there's a big fight, right? There's what the crypto guys want versus what the banks want. But I don't have a view beyond that because again, you know, this is all being streamed. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to drink coffee and like get sick or something. So, [laughter] okay. Uh, there's a question here.

>> Great job, Mr. Lee. >> Thank you. I want to say you're number one right here, right now. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Anyway, um I wanted to know what your thoughts were about BMNR. When will it top out this year? What month do you think it will reach its top? [laughter] >> What month? This year. I I can show you my diary and like every day I have a target price. [laughter] Um here's the thing like you know I really can't give you forward guidance

because then we have to AK it and then of course I already know for my days at Funstrat like if I say this is going to happen on this day then everyone like marks in their calendar and then all of a sudden they're like hate me because they bought call options on that expiry date. Uh but you saw the chart like Ethereum's undervalued. Uh Ethereum's ratio to Bitcoin should be going up a lot. I mean it should go beyond the 2021 high. And Bitcoin is undervalued because Bitcoin had a rug pull on October 10th and it's beginning to recover.

Gold has been on a dramatic rise. Every dramatic rise in gold has been followed by a Bitcoin rally. And year-to- date, Bitcoin's beating gold for the first time probably in many years. So, I think Bitcoin should do well, which would mean if the ratio Ethereum to Bitcoin goes up, because Ethereum is already up 12% year to date, you know, Ethereum should outperform dramatically. And then that's great for the stock price. So, I mean, if you're worried about Bitmine where it is now, just keep in mind, ask yourself these questions. Is Bitine going to have a liquidity problem? It

has a billion dollars of cash. Does Bitine have any debt coming due? Zero debt. Does Bitmine have to sell its Ethereum to fund operations? It's 400 million of uh pre-tax income a year. I mean, no problem. There is is there a problem with Ethereum? Ethereum's usage is going through the roof. They've, you know, Fusaka upgrade happened late last year. Use cases are growing. So, I mean, if Bitmines, you know, stock price is in the dumps, which it kind of is, is it because of anything fundamental?

Not really. But when did Bit Mine's price kind of take a hit? After October 10th. Uh I think all crypto kind of got hit after that liquidation event. But relative to other cryptos, especially DATs, only two since that period of time have actually sort of picked themselves off the ground and continue to buy crypto, which is Bit Mine and Micro Strategy. So I hope that makes you feel better. But again, I can send you my diary later after this or other. Yeah.

Uh >> oh. Okay. Sorry guys, one more question. >> Oh, I get the last one. Sorry guys. Tom, thanks for everything you're doing for all of us. Uh we we really appreciate you and the team. um you know being that Bitmine's role uh within the Ethereum uh ecosystem the importance of it and how close we are to the 5% alchemy uh has the consideration been given to go to 10%. Uh yeah. So the question is you know what if we when we hit 5% of Ethereum you know do we stop there? What if we go to

10%. Uh we've asked that question a lot because um we one of the reasons we pick 5% is because of the power law. >> [snorts] >> The idea is that if you own enough of a network, you begin to have beneficial uh and unique influence not on the network itself but on people who want to interact with the network. So in other words, if we were only 1% of ETH, would we be invited to invest in Beast Industries? Probably not, right? They wouldn't care. Uh you know, would we be the liquidity backs stop for a lot of potential exchanges? probably not because but we have like 14 billion of ETH. We you know and it's no debt. I

mean we can we can be liquidity for a lot of folks and of course that's why we could be the settlement layer. Do does getting to 10% give bequeath us more benefit? It might, but we also don't want to crowd out um the network because if you own too much of Ethereum, then you become a malevolent entity because all of a sudden, you know, you ever heard the phrase like if you borrow money from the bank, they own you, but if you borrow so much money from the bank, you own the bank. Um well in a similar concept we don't want to end up be making this like the to have so much Ethereum that we crowd out the voices. I

mean you know Ethereum works because it's a huge community. So we want to uh balance that. So I don't know what the right number is but you know one path is like we get to 5% and we're just dividending a lot of return because of our alpha strategies and our moonshots. uh or we we see if you know what level beyond that would be okay to pursue without you know having exerting too much influence. We just we we want to keep Ethereum uh you know a decentralized network.

So, >> well, I'd have to ask the master of ceremonies >> for Mike for >> multiple >> uh Oh, thank you, sir. There was some controversy about Funstrat giving two different uh uh stock prices of uh Ethereum. Can you comment on that by chance? >> Yes. >> Thank you. Uh when I first entered Wall Street, uh someone gave me some advice. They said, "Tom, if you want to be correct, make 300 forecasts and one of them will be correct and you're never wrong." So I decided to say

at Fund Strat, let's make 20 forecasts because one of them will be correct. I'm just kidding. That's um uh what you're referring to is that in my other job, I'm uh the founder of Fundrat, a research firm. I'm also the chief investment officer of Funstrat Capital uh which by the way has reached 4.7 billion of assets under management. Uh but at Thank you. and Granny Granny Kin here. Um, but at Funstrat we have three leading voices on markets. I do macro.

I'm head of research. Uh, Mark Newton who's our head of technical strategy and Sean Ferrell who does crypto strategy. Each of us looks and approaches crypto differently. I have a top- down view of Ethereum and Bitcoin. I'm not trading that position. I'm trying to keep you from being your own worst enemy. Most people make this mistake because they sell at the bottom. Ethereum's like at the bottom. I'm trying to convince you like in 20 17 stack your Bitcoin.

Mark Newton is very tactical. Uh, and I consult him all the time. [clears throat] His time frame can be five days, it could be uh, you know, two weeks, two months, it can be 12 months. If it's five minutes, he's going to call me in the bathroom. Um, I'm just kidding. He doesn't call me when I'm in the bathroom. And uh, and Sean Ferrell, he manages a portfolio of crypto as if he's the portfolio manager. He's not he doesn't necessarily have a view. He might have a directional view.

So the controversy that you're referring to is Sean Ferrell said Ethereum would go to 18800. Oh, it could go to 1,800 in December. Okay. In December, I'm sorry, in December, Sean Ferrell said uh that Ethereum could go to 1,800 in January. whereas Tom Lee said Ethereum should rally uh in the first part of the year. And so therefore, I pulled Sean into my office and I said, "Sean, listen. Uh I'll give you 20 bucks to change your mind.

Just kidding." Um but Sean, of course, is managing a crypto alpha portfolio. So that's just he's not pinning 1,800 and betting on it. He's just saying, "I'm going to be cautious around ETH. Maybe I'm a buyer there. But as you if you're a subscriber to Fund Strap, [snorts] Sean has uh modified his view. There's been a recovery in price. So now he's buying Ethereum. So I don't think he would stick to that 1,800 view. Uh so the Twitter world will say, "Hey, Fund Strat's like thrown out two targets." It's not. It's just different voices. And if you're a subscriber to Funstrat, you'd see it's uh it's not controversial.

But by the way, if you, you know, if you'd like to get fun research, you're welcome to sign up, you know. Just kidding. Okay. Well, thanks. I think uh that concludes my part. Yes. [applause] >> Okay. Yeah. Uh Okay. So, we're going to bring Vlad from Lighter uh up next and we're going to have a fireside chat.

Okay. Uh, well, welcome everyone. we have a a fireside chat with Vlad. Vlad and I had a a pri a conversation ahead of this and Vlad is a crypto native. Uh so that means he is uh like high IQ. Um could be autistic but super high IQ and but also that the audience here is not likely to be cryptonative. So we I wanted you know he and I had a conversation because we wanted to make sure that we keep this conversation in a way that kind of makes intuitive sense to whoever's here and we apologize if someone who's watching live stream is a

cryptonative and thinks I'm asking repetitive questions but I do want to sort of have a conversation where we can explain what Vlad and Lighter do uh but then also why you know for us for BitMine we want to be doing more things with Lighter. So, okay. So, uh Vlad, could you just start with talking about yourself and your background? >> Great. Thanks for having me, Tom. And, uh, great, uh, to meet everybody here. Uh, so I actually, funny enough, started out in Trafi, uh, about 20 years ago at a place called Citadel when they were just getting into high frequency trading. So did that for quite some time. Kind of was

through the crash of 2008, you know, the flash crash of 2010. Kind of saw what works well in Trafy and what some of the shortfalls might be and uh came out to Silicon Valley in 2012 and spent time there mostly working on AI and fintech but started following blockchain and crypto kind of from the sidelines. um you know investing in some projects, advising some teams, so on and so forth and really you know things became really clear about what value blockchain and particularly Ethereum can add to the financial system and that's kind of what led us to lighter.

>> Great. And uh there I'm going to guess a lot of folks uh have not heard of lighter uh would love for you to give us a topdown sort of explanation and I can sort of expand on that a bit. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, lighter is a decentralized exchange built on top of Ethereum and we can talk more about what that means but you can trade spot assets like Ethereum like our native token lid other spot assets on lighter. Uh but the biggest market you can trade on lighter right now are perpetual futures. So these are derivatives that unlike you know traditional futures that have an

expiration kind of uh you can trade them without an expiration. You don't have to roll them over. You can trade them with leverage and lighter because it's on top of Ethereum. You know it's very secure. It's kind of on the most secure settlement layer. Everything that happens on lighter is verifiable. What that means is every single trade, every single order, every single liquidation, there's a proof that that happened correctly and fairly. So, for example, something like the flash crash, you know, wouldn't happen. And if and if there are big moves like on October 10, there's a record of exactly what happened, who got liquidated, when and why, and all that. But in terms of numbers, we have um around four or five billion of daily volume at this point.

Um you know we are live in many many countries you know hoping to be live in the US soon but you know have you know tens of thousands of uh daily traders and process hundreds of millions of orders a day. >> Yeah. And so uh so lighter is a decentralized exchange uh in somewhat you may have heard of something like hyperlquid and and that's uh similar but some of these folks might wonder how does your project differ from what they call centralized exchanges like Coinbase or Binance um or others.

>> Yeah. So, you know, Coinbase, uh, and they're actually an investor in in us as well. And so, they're they're they're partners, uh, with us and, you know, they're in a variety of businesses, but the the main business that they're mostly known for is, yeah, the centralized exchange, they they also do do stuff in DeFi and where we can partner with them on so on. But the main thing that Coinbase does in their core business is where, you know, they custody your assets. Um you can trade at this point you know for for uh US customers you you can trade spot assets for they also have a perpetuals offering for um you know customers in other jurisdictions but there you know everything that happens

kind of happens internally um both the custody and kind of the rules around matching and um you rules around risk and liquidations all that kind of happens essentially asosed opposed to in a decentralized way, right? So that that's kind of the you know the main difference. Now there there's different like if you look at the whole ecosystem, right? Like you can there there's there's the custody part then there's the part about what about how you know how do you make sure the matching is fair, right? Like how do you make sure liquidations are fair? So that there's kind of different aspects of what you want from a decentralized exchange, but at a very high level, like something that's completely centralized.

Um there there's some benefits to that as well, you know, but we we believe that kind of over time the future is is decentralized. >> Great. Um okay. Uh so when we sort of finish with our conversation if there are more questions we may have some audience questions and to see if they need more explanation but I wanted to sort of ask you uh very specifically about why did you decide to build on top of Ethereum? >> Yes. So we started building in uh late 2022 when it was pretty clear after what happened with FTX and other things that

we're seeing that a really strong decentralized exchange was something that was needed in the market and we thought a lot about the architecture of that. Um, you know, it was pretty clear from the start that Ethereum is kind of the the security layer um the layer uh that's that you can build upon that's the kind of the most trusted the most reliable. has been around um you know the longest of of kind of of any of the L1's and um they already had uh a really strong DeFi ecosystem which I think in part I think you you made point earlier that you know the Ethereum um you know Vitalic and others aren't

necessarily pushing DeFi but I think that's actually a good thing right like it it organically because of how secure it is you know hundreds of billions of dollars I mean I think when we started building it was more like tens of billions of dollars right but like all all of that all of those assets are you know secured by Ethereum and so for us it was very clear if you want to build something that has to do with with finance you know that's very hard technically to make it work to have a very efficient exchange uh so that's why it was actually hard technical lift for us to do but there was always no question for us that that's you know the the ground you know security layer you want to build on top of >> yeah um So the way you built on Ethereum is

that uh you are the largest L2 today if I'm correct. >> Well in by certain metrics so we're in terms of uh TVL. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of TVL, we're the fourth largest. And I just just to step back, you know, lighter, I mentioned in the context of the product and you know what it means for the customer, but the tech behind lighter involved building our own layer 2 on top of Ethereum, which uh as Tom said is one of the largest, you know, fourth largest by TVL in terms of transactions per second. it's the highest um and um in terms of you know orders that are processed and and volumes I think it's one or you know first or second highest but um uh but uh

yeah I mean I think kind of the whole L2 architecture is really interesting because like the more secure the layer one in this case Ethereum the more performant layer 2s on top of it can be. >> Yeah. And I and before I explain, I I kind of want you to add to the brag. Aren't you the most used L2 um today? >> Yeah. I think if you look at number of orders sent, you know, kind of daily customers um that's right. >> Yeah. I remembered uh Ash from the Ethereum Foundation who happens to be here so I'm hope I'm not misquing you but he said that think of Ethereum as like you know this very secure thing but the L2s are like

the interstate highways that let you go really fast um and have a lot of speed. Could you explain what it means to be an L2? Yeah, I think that that's that's certainly a very good analogy. Another analogy I would use is kind of going back to Stratfire, right? Like in Trafi, you have kind of the layer of kind of settlement and accounting kind of I remember, you know, like when when I was on the trading floor, there were all these like like we're doing high frequency trading like hundreds of thousands of trades a day, but then there those are happening quickly, right? Then there were like these actual pieces of paper that had to be printed out after the market close, right, with like the trades and that that that I mean in Trafy that was like the

settlement layer. But I think you know but but you can still run um things like high frequency trading on top of it. I mean that's in the traditional system. Now in Ethereum, you know, again, it's like you have this really um secure and verifiable layer of um kind of ultimately what you know, movement of assets and kind of what actually which assets uh changed hands and um how they settle. But then you can do hundreds of millions of trades a day, right? Because all the way we build lighter is del too is that everything that happens there's a proof that's posted on top of Ethereum that every single order every single

trade was done correctly right and so as long as Ethereum has a record of that that that kind of makes sure that the execution layer and the settlement layer are can can't be in in in disagreement with each other. >> Great. Okay. Um so let's get into uh the technology and roadmap. Uh I know you and I have had multiple conversations about this um both real world assets, tokenized stocks and other things uh and even working with some non-crypto exchanges.

Um, so you know, how do you think about tokenizing revenue streams, especially prediction markets and maybe options beyond, you know, things beyond, >> right? Well, that's really interesting, right? Because I think like one one of the um I think big unlocks from um you know, companies like Bitmine, right? and and you know is is is kind of this idea that you can actually give um access to this digital economy to more traditional investors, right? And you can kind of go that that can work both ways as well, right? So like you can actually have something like a tokenized stock where now um cryptonative

um traders and investors can own a piece of a company and not in a synthetic way but kind of in an act in a way that that that actually um mirrors real ownership. Um and now that there's a question of how does that implemented on the back end and how it's settled but then the next question is how do you trade it efficiently right with low cost in our case be zero fees and so that's where lighter comes in but I think to your point about there are all these different ways to bet on the future right so there's like you can have a prediction market now that's certainly not something that a traditional institution would likely participate in but if you can tokenize revenue stream than they can because you can think of

that as a security. Um, and then you can have options as well on those either on on the underlying asset or on specific streams. And like imagine that all of these things are kind of playing together where on a decentralized exchange that can tie into these different forms of collateral. Like maybe some market makers are able to trade all of these and can hedge the risks on the prediction market with you know the tokenized revenue streams and so on. Maybe others can only buy and hold the tokenized revenue streams right but then that makes price discovery and liquidity much better. Um and I think that's kind of the future we're building towards.

>> Yeah. Great. And uh but I mean I know you and I had some extended discussions and we we're we're seeking to really uh actualize these with you guys, but uh you know can you talk about you know like what you see as what could be unique about it like a tokenized stock for instance you know and I I know you're talking about crypto folks could have real ownership of it but do you see a way to create synthetic exposure ures, you know, again, using all of this architecture and a lot of technical lift and providing the liquidity. Um, but you know, could you talk about some of the

ways you can create synthetic exposures? >> Right. So, I think that that's what makes it really interesting um to have this kind of infrastructure um that we're building, right? because you can actually have the spot asset, you know, the the cash equity and perpetuals, you know, share collateral, right? And and and and therefore it's it's capital efficient for market makers. Like let's say that somebody does just want to own um you know, something like a perpetual on a market index, right? Um, and that that is a synthetic instrument, but there's going to be a lot more liquidity for that synthetic instrument if participants who are able to trade the

underlying through tokenized stock are able to do that kind of on the same, you know, essentially if all of that happens on top of Ethereum, you can really unify that collateral, right? And and so then that's much more capital efficient because because then whoever is providing liquidity can kind of hedge the risks >> um you know kind of you can do kind of the so-called basis trade right directly on chain. >> Yeah. And if you could unpack that a little bit like imagine if instead of having a blockchain and your project but you went back in time to your seat at Citadel and you're working with brokers.

What is the difference in complexity of trying to accomplish that same thing in on on a traditional Wall Street framework versus doing it on Ethereum? >> Right. Well, I I think like one key difference, right, is the democratization of it where, you know, if you're one of, you know, five biggest hedge funds in the world and you've had relationships with, you know, folks like JP Morgan and Goldman for years, you have these lines of credit across different asset classes, you you know, I mean, even then, like, if you're on the futures desk or you're on the equities desk, you may, you know, it's non-trivial to just share collateral.

But, you know, if you're if you're one of the top five hedge funds in the world, you can probably get that done and it'll work. But, you know, the beautiful thing about all this happening on top of Ethereum is you can anyone can do that, right? It's not just like it it all happens through smart contracts and, you know, zero knowledge proofs and all those good things. So, that I think to me like that's the really exciting part about it. >> Yeah. And I mean I think to me that's a big deal because that means that DeFi projects and products are giving you access to things that only an elite group of hedge funds could actually trade and make all their alpha from.

>> Exactly. Exactly. >> So could you look I I don't know how if you feel comfortable but do you do you you know do you are you working with any traditional exchanges traditional Wall Street firms? uh to try to do things uh with everything you've just described. >> So, you know, we are I wouldn't I don't think they would think of themselves as traditional uh but they have been around for some time now. You know, Robin Hood is strategic partner with us as well. And you know, we'll have some more specific announcements on that in the coming weeks. But we have started, you know, I I think it's no secret that they're working on tokenized stocks also on top of Ethereum. and we've we started

a joint project with them, you know, on that. We'll have kind of more to say about it um in the coming weeks. So that that's that's definitely one. Um I think, you know, we've also started kind of processes with kind of even, you know, more more traditional Wall Street firms both in terms of kind of trading, figuring out how do you actually trade um asset classes uh that traditionally have been unregulated, right? now now can be um where for example you can have some form of onchain KYC where let's say like a citadel they they want to trade these assets but they only want to trade with counterparts that have been KYC maybe

another trading firm is okay trading with all counterparts now how do you kind of do all of that in the same order book um now that's you know our technology allows you to do that so so I think there there's some really interesting projects that are um on you that we've started on this year as well. >> Right. Um now as an aside by the way uh lighter uh token was air dropped which means it became available to trade about a month ago. Uh could you tell us about how it's performed?

>> Yeah, so the token actually the generation event of the token was it seemed it feels like a month. It was it was actually um two weeks ago um and uh initially it was available only on on lighter and so you could trade the spot natively there and actually today you could start trading the lit token on Robin Hood you know on Coinbase uh by bit and um OKX and a couple others and so now um that ecosystem has grown I guess maybe I can talk first a little bit about you know what the token does in the vision and then um the performance. So, you know, kind of the the vision here, right, is

that like we were saying there there's kind of the security layer at the bottom that that's Ethereum, you know, that's obviously ETH um serves very important function there. But then where we sit is a layer on top of that, right? Is kind of trading, risk management, financial infrastructure, access to financial products, you know, market data, all those things that exist in Strati. in Trafy they happen either through kind of bespoke deals or you know in a way that's not democratized. Now the lit token can be used you know you could um you know if you stake it you can get access to financial products uh you could get access to you know real-time market data right you can get access to new new listings faster better

infrastructure right like getting you know um trading in in a way that's not rate limited right like or better funding rates something else um we're looking at so that there's a lot um there And I I think in terms of the performance, yeah, it's been kind of some ups and downs the last couple weeks, but I think with the way these things go is um you know, like I guess, you know, one of the things about DeFi is there's a little bit of a double-edged sword where because it's democra I mean I think ultimately what we're trying to build is like a vision of democratizing finance the and I think netnet that's very much a good thing. The one kind of downside

of that right is that you get a lot of um you know like anyone can trade right on the platform. So you you get a lot of participants that are so-called like wash traders or kind of doing stuff that there's not not really value add to the ecosystem but you can't because it's DeFi you can't like kick them out right so these some of those folks are kind of they still you can try to do your best to make sure the airdrop goes to real traders and real institutions but can't do that perfectly. So, some of those folks are kind of selling now. That process will probably take, you know, another week and then it'll be kind of constructive from there, >> right? Um, and by the way, if someone is like checking on Robin Hood, just what would the ticker be?

>> The ticker is lit. >> Yeah. Great. Um, can you tell us I know you're not operating the US yet, but what are you building in the US? >> So, we're we're in the we're a US company. uh we've started out as a US company kind of stayed here and want to innovate here right and you know it's um I think like it's a little bit it's it's been a little bit of a shame that some of the innovation hasn't been happening in the US because you know like we're talking about something that's at the intersection of finance and technology I think like both the traditional financial system and technology industry where you know mostly innovations that

came from the US. So, so it's a bit of a shame that the intersection has been unfortunately like outside the US. But I think that's finally now starting to change with um policy makers really understanding. You know, it's interesting. I spent some time talking to um folks on the hill last month and you know, some of our adviserss warned us like, you know, when you go in there, you know, they're not really going to understand what's going. Like you probably saw that video where Mark Zuckerberg was in a hearing like years ago and they were like what how does Facebook make money again? Like but it actually wasn't like that at all.

They actually like oh like how tell us more about you know you know if you have this if you have zero knowledge proofs and you don't keep the data you know how exactly does that work? You know they actually understand the stuff pretty well now. Um and so we're confident that uh you know there's some iterations happening kind of right this week on some of the legislation but we're we're confident that there will be you know smart approaches to regulation that will be enacted and then you know we're kind of we would work with the CFTC and the ACC to kind of figure out exactly how to bring lighter technology to US customers and institutions.

>> Right. Um, and we're running out of time here, but I do want to cover this. I mean, do you see DeFi merging with Trady? And sorry, just to break the acronym, DeFi is really crypto. Um, and Trady is traditional Wall Street. Yeah. So, that's certainly our vision, right? Like I because the financial system like I think some of the and you know I think you have to give them credit because they were very early and kind of fighting an uphill ladder but some of the very early crypto people I feel like kind of had this view like okay like finance you should start over you know it doesn't work traditional system doesn't work you have to start over right or this view of like oh you have to like rebuild it maybe some

aspects of it work but you have to rebuild it all all from scratch my view is that it'll be more of a merge in the sense that um you know um certainly like DeFi platforms can on one on one side right like D5 platforms can do things like okay like you can actually do if an institution needs onchain KYC um you you know you can do that right and yet still still maintain access to the pure DeFi customer or if you want to you know if there's idea to run like an onchain hedge fund you can do that but conversely you can go the other way right like if let's say traditional exchange like New York Stock Exchange if they want to verify that what they do all all their orders are

verifiable or they want to make sure that the market data that they send to their customers um you know goes through kind of a trusted Oracle network again a lot of these things happen on top of Ethereum right but like you can kind of go both ways and I think I don't think anyone knows exactly what that end state looks like but definitely I think as we see now with traditional players starting to understand the technology like it'll be somewhere in the middle >> right um well I that was a great conversation Vlad so uh you know if you uh want to follow Vlad's going to be here I think the lit token is very lit [applause]

thank you uh yeah uh so glad We might. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, sorry, it looks like there's a couple questions here. >> I think they gave me the mic. So, um, Tom, you invited some elementary questions and I'm gonna with both of you guys, I can't pass this up asking this question. And so as I talk about uh crypto with friends and become uh talk with everybody that that I come in contact with, I cannot um elaborate and and uh explain this. So my question is

about how the value flows to the token that we all hold through Bitine and and and you know through ETFs and you know as we uh hold our own tokens. So my question is I understand Vlad with a level two as you face the customer value can flow to you as you as you satisfy customer needs. I understand in Bitcoin digital gold scarcity will increase the value. It's with Ethereum from having utility on how the value flows to the token that we hold. And so would love to hear with the two of you on stage. This has been a burning question of mine.

Do you want to take a stab first or >> Sure, I'll I'll take a stab and then you'll give the real answer, right? But I think um I the uh I think the way I think about it is is is pretty simple like Ethereum is kind of the the infrastructure layer, right? The security layer. It's like you can think of it as again if you look at the traditional system like you know for the internet like a Cisco, right? Or for you know cloud computing like Amazon, AWS something like that, right? So now there are applications on top of those layers whether it's internet applications or you know financial applications and but there's still a lot of value acrewed to the infrastructure like we um we pay a lot of gas fees to Ethereum every day. I

mean and um yeah it's true like gas fees are coming down but that also means you know like if you think about it in terms of supply and demand right that also means there are a lot more applications uh being built uh and so actually kind of the net net of it is is positive and so I think like if you look at traditional economy like it's not like all the value occurs to the userfacing applications and none to the infrastructure in some cases it's even split in some cases it's the other way So I I just think there's a lot of value to be had and having the right base layer to build on is really important.

>> Yeah. And uh I'm going to add to it. Um so I've been uh covering markets equities uh and now crypto but equities for over 35 years. And uh of course because I started when I was two years old. Um and then uh crypto for almost 10. Okay. And I want to tell you that I meet a lot of people that are from top business schools like HBS and uh they build great models and um for instance like let's say they build a model for uh one of the mobile cellular companies I used to cover including

Almasa Holdings which David Sharbet is the founder of and uh they do this and they go Tom this is the DCF the stock is worth $5 and not a penny more and not a penny less. Okay. And then I'll be like, "Oh, so you have a 10-year model. You have a discounted discount rate. You have a terminal multiple. uh you have assumptions for the growth of the business, the revenue per user, customer acquisition cost, the depreciation or capital charge, interest rate assumption, tax rate, and like so what's your confidence that you got all those 15 variables correct

for each quarter for the next 10 years? And the guy's like, hey, I'm in HBS. What are you talking about? Uh so uh but I'd be like and then I've looked at then why do stock prices do this when there's this model that like people only update like every three months, right? Uh I think most people are really anchored to the view that they believe there's a tangible way to price an asset and they they get really stuck and then they miss everything. I give an example.

Gold. Gold's been amazing. Uh, look at it. It's up 9% this year. So, from the start of the year to now, it's worth 9% more. Did gold's usefulness go up by 9%. In 15 days? Uh, did gold sales go up? Do you know if you do a price to sales for gold, like the sale of gold and jewelry or for industrial use, it's like 120 to one. You're paying like 120 price sales by gold. You tell that to a gold bug, they don't care. They're just buying gold, right? Okay. Well, how about land? I mean, the biggest source of wealth in America is land ownership. Okay. People

have made money from land. I would like you to take a microscope and look at your land that you paid $5 million for. And if you look at it, there's worms and dirt. Why is it worth $8 million? It's because of where it is, right? Like, why is a square inch of Manhattan so expensive? that doesn't pay you anything. In fact, you have to pay taxes on it. Guess what? Why would someone tell me Ethereum is not worth anything if every real world asset's going to be built on it and all the L2s run on it and Wall Street built most of their tokenized products? And I've literally had the same HBS be like, Tom, show me the revenue model it, you know, Ethereum. And then they'll be

like, look, I have my 10-year DCF of Ethereum. I can't get those things there without assumptions. I'm going to say in my 35 years, I've never found those people make a lot of money buying stocks because they are anchored to their own reality. I think the reason Ethereum is going to go up is the same reason gold trades at 120 price to value. If Ethereum is literally the single blockchain where most of Wall Street builds, it's N equals 1. It's like the palunteer of stocks. It's like the Elon Musk if you know and if the next L2 sorry the next L1 has like 1/100th of volume should they have the same economic model and you just apply the

same multiple I mean it becomes you can see like it doesn't make sense. By the way I don't really know what Ethereum's model is 10 years from now. Nobody does. And so that's why I I'm I question why people are so sure they know what the price of it is today. I'm not trying to give you a non-answer, but I'm showing you that everyone's convinced that there is an answer to model. And I personally never seen anyone's model really work. Yeah. [applause] Thanks very much. Um, this is kind of a question relating to what Ethereum's model is in 10 years from now. Uh some

people have concerns about crypto as a whole in relationship to developments with um quantum computing and quantum computing possibly being able to break blockchain encryption. So I think my first question is for you Vlad just any insights on that possibility and on that speculation and my second question is for you Tom if uh Bitmine is holding any strategy in that regard. Thanks. Great. So, I think that's um an important question. I think kind of the the cryptographic um compute that you want to use needs to be like way ahead of what's possible to

break. And I I but I think the Ethereum Foundation has started taking this very seriously already and there's kind of um you know there there's kind of a plan to be way ahead by kind of decades. you know, I think it's not an imminent um you know, quantum computing is moving forward. It's not, you know, I think it'll it'll still be, you know, 5 10 plus years before we're before before anything like that becomes more of a reality. But I I think um the Ethereum Foundation has done a really good job of like staying ahead of it. So I'm that's that's to be honest that's like one of the because of things like that. That's one of the reasons why like we want to build on top of Ethereum is because

unlike other folks who are kind of maybe more focused on kind of day-to-day trends like Ethereum community thinks really long term. >> Yeah. And uh what I might want to add is uh and there's been a lot of conversations about this. You know, if quantum threats develop um Ethereum is able to push new upgrades uh to to either make quantum resistance or uh to to really improve the security. And when people think about the risk of quantum, many crypto experts are really talking about legacy Bitcoin wallets that haven't been upgraded. because um you know bitcoin can be develop quantum

resistance but you know the wallets have to be upgraded and as you know there's a lot of uh legacy wallets like Satoshi's bitcoins it's about a I think it's about a third of all the bitcoins are in wallets that haven't been upgraded. So imagine if you're a quantum hacker whose sole goal is to steal something. Then there's a huge bounty because you can do it on an old Bitcoin wallet. So that's uh and remember when when they unlock that they they have access to the entire history. So uh that's probably why more people are concerned about Bitcoin and and and quantum than than Ethereum.

now as Bitmine um you know what can we do about it? I mean look at the end of the day uh Bitmine can take proactive steps uh as a because we're a company right we're not a DeFi project so we can you know we can invest we can buy quantum protection we could uh buy quantum stocks we could seed quantum if we thought it would help Ethereum so there's a lot of steps we can take I I think that's uh all the questions we could take. Um, >> thank you. Thank you so much, Tom and

Vlad. I have a question for each one of you. Uh, first for Vlad, um, I'd like to know a little bit more about lighter. Um, is it uh can you make an analogy for for me as far as um whether it's like a Robin Hood in being able to trade it? Um it's a platform for trading uh or is it a token that you trade? Um and then the question for Tom, would you um give a breakdown on the revenues that um Bitmine would make on each of the component? Um uh the last component was uh the um you mentioned

the staking and we understand that uh the other component has to do with Maven which we you had covered elsewhere but you've not covered it here. I was wondering if you could uh state whether that is going to be significant and what part of uh percentage of revenue that it would contribute to Bitmine as far as the Maven uh stake uh service itself. >> Sure. So yeah, I think uh the short answer to to your question about lighter is you know it's all of the above. it I mean we do have our native token uh we have trading infrastructure and there's a front end to trade directly of course other frontends uh can and have built on

top of lighter as well but I guess maybe the question is like how does all this fit together and what what's an analogy to it in the traditional world I mean I think one one way to think about it is like imagine that you when let's say like Robin Hood was first built or you know Citadel Securities or you know any any of these kind of key components like that the early participants actually all had a stake in that ecosystem and could you know that stake made everyone's incentives aligned. So it's like it's you know it's some components of what would exist in a traditional system that are interconnected through

smart contracts and zero knowledge proofs but importantly through the token there's kind of aligned incentives so everyone you know who's early it's like um if you were one of the early traders and really helped build the ecosystem that way you'll you're going to have that incentive and then now there's a variety of ways that those will be useful to you. So, so I think it is kind of all of the above and the token is kind of the link between all the different pieces, >> right? And um with regarding to the breakdown of our four pillars, uh you know, if we gave you that, it's we're giving you forward guidance. So, um that's why we kind of had to present it to you this way, which is just to let give you guys an idea and you can track

us as the year progresses. But just keep that in mind. It's we've given you the framework Um, so Marcy's gonna come on stage, I think, and just give you a breakdown of the rest of the afternoon. >> Thank you all and thank you to everyone in the Bitcoin family who joined us for our extreme. We have to thank our chairman, Tom Lee. Thank you, Vlad. [applause] >> And we got some feastables here. >> We're very excited. If you join us next door, we have a lot of fun chocolate fountains. We have sliders. We have DJ.

We have great hats that you can add patches on. We have something great. Mr. Beast couldn't be here with us today, but he sends his happiness that we are on board as an investor and his chocolate and his drinks. And thank you. Join us across the hall. And again, thank you so much for your patience. Thank you for being a part of it. And we look forward to seeing you at the next annual shareholders meeting of BitMine. >> Yeah. Thank you. [applause] >> [music]