Blockchain Unleashed: Moving Beyond the Bitcoin Protocol's Utility

Transcript

I would like to welcome to the stage Mii Gregor from massari uh and he will introduce his panel have you seen that one I have SE look three two one hello everyone um let's talk crypto infra uh my name is Mii uh I run protocol research at mesari I work with crypto protocols that implement and infrastructure rails and especially this is custody this is staking and uh this is also trading and um yeah this is the bread and butter of my panelist today so very happy to start

the round of introductions uh Eva who you are and what are you doing thank you hi everyone uh my name is Eva Lawrence I am the head of Amir at figment we are the largest independent staking provider we provide staking infrastructure to over 500 institutional clients and have over 15 billion in a US um I'm very pleased to be on stage today with friends and partners in the industry and looking forward to our conversation awesome good cool uh hello everybody my name is Brett Reeves I run sales in Europe for bitgo um uh crypto custodian um also very happy to be here with I guess family as we should say

from The Fast and the Furious um um and yeah look forward to today's panel afternoon everyone I'm AUD I run business development for from Talos we are Global um Financial Services firm and primarily focusing on trading infrastructure for institutions so if any part of the trading ecosystem you're touching uh you should be talking to us and they have all been talking to us so we all Partners yeah I know this seems like a fix but we are actually all integrated with each other and which is we'll get into Tommy oil um from Falcon X so I've set up our European franchise I'm here with my colleague Rosita um who's based in Zurich um and we're a crypto institutional broker um the largest provider of liquidity to

institutions globally uh Trad predominantly us and we've opened Europe in the last six months Singapore and Hong Kong so we'll get into our our Global strategy and plans uh but you're for an institution trading crypto think of us as OTC electronic are some of the retail apps as well we we'll have a job to do there so looking forward to the channel the panel awesome thank you so much so we all want to speak about adoption and in order to get adopted infrastructure has to be better cheaper faster so the first question for for the panel is what does that mean for you and for your clients what do you understand

by better cheaper faster Eva sure sure um so I think it depends for the clients that we work with where they are in their their journey of uh adopting staking so we work with everyone from an asset manager a hedge fund all the way through to a custodian uh trading platform exchange um and so some of them are a little bit further along in in understanding staking and understanding how they're going to adopt it um and uh others are uh are at a later stage so for those who um maybe are just exploring staking they might want an outof the-box solution so that will be

quicker faster for them to uh to to incorporate staking they can use our um our staking interface to to quickly and easily stake ethereum and that might be the first starting point uh on a company's staking Journey The Next Step might be uh integrating with our apis for staking and for reward to offer staking services to their end customers so I think better faster you know it really depends on what the objective um of the the customer or the partner is do you just want to test staking for example do you just want a quick easy custody solution do you want to run some

test trades what is the objective and and how will that scale in the long term you could have something that's very quick and easy right now um but how does that then scale with your plans for your business in the next you know 12 months two three years so I would say you know quick integration generally works in the short term um but it's normally uh longer term um more um more intertwined integration via apis or similar that allow um that allow customers to to grow robust um Integrations in the long term um but but but the quicker faster cheaper can be

the way forward in in the short term I think that applies for staking and and for you know for other um for other service providers as well I don't know what Brett thinks about that yeah I think it it really depends on the end client and and what they need I think if you look at custody we offer Ultra secure robust Cold Storage custody um you don't necessarily want to access that quickly um because if anyone's trying to take those assets you you don't want them to be able to take them somewhere else very quickly so it depends on that side no but then you've got obviously you know Tommy helping people trade and and things like that and that you do need faster access and so there you you might need the hot wallets uh and you might need a faster

access to the market to be able to trade market makers definitely on that side so it really depends on the use case I think cost is an interesting point I think most businesses in any walk of life cost is interesting um my background is kind of 20 years of traditional uh Finance Prime brokerage and custody and I think to to get through the cost element you have to be kind of open and transparent with each other um you want to build a partnership it's a it's we're not doing this for the next 6 months or the next 12 months we want to be doing this for the next five or 10 years with our clients um everybody's going to have their pay points and if you're open and transparent around where your costs are where your Revenue drivers are where you can do different types of business then

you can find a way to be able to work together in a way that uh both of you are able to meet your your kind of bottom line and and needs that way if you can't then or there's a better offer on the table then sometimes it's it's just meant to be that you know maybe you can't work together now and you hopefully go your separate ways in a nice way and decide to try and come back later on but there there will always be uh a different offer on the table it might might not be the same in terms of package but cost is an interesting one to to negotiate on the trading side is cost also one of the biggest drivers no absolutely but I also would like to sort of um rephrase cheaper faster don't necessarily means better you know in

many ways um ever touched a bit about it depends on where the client what the client needs are so it's a lot about uh appropriateness and suitability um you know type of client base that you're targeting and Brett touched on the fact that um you know it's very important to also understand that this timing is as as a key element of it as well you know you know part where you're journey of your business is is if you are transforming the cheap element that people are driving towards to actually let's put it a different way actually what they're trying to say is the ability to scale and maybe scale for the future or that you are already scaled to that extent so cost element is a huge driver but it has to be uh very much uh thought in line of with another key

aspect which I'm going to tap in Tommy in a second which is around the operational risk that you're running as particularly from you know not just from a trading point of view but actually across all the other intersections of how you actually can encapsulate the entire uh trading um life cycle or order to trade life cycle of a a digital asset or a crypto asset so um it's about how much you're willing to to cough up for the cost of Burden to make sure that you are comfortable with the operational risk you're going to be running for the business today and for the future hence the scale element so I think cheaper faster not necess better and as you say

no fast and furious and sometimes you make uh you do want to make a quick quick win a quick bet but you also need to take a medium longterm as well what what that means yeah yeah no to totally agree with that actually I think the the common denominator between the four firms on stage is I guess the quality of our technology as well um and so if I look at us you know we figment are our largest staking partner globally um we believe they're the best technology in in the staking uh segment simly bitgo from a custodian perspective we do we've done N9 billion dollars of OTC options year-to dat uh largely in the US and large portion of that goes to bitco uh trip party but what they're doing on the cold storage side specifically about instant settlement actually is pretty Market leading um and so um you know

very sort of interesting from that lens and from a Talos lens you know certainly the the Le ing EMS provider execution algo provider globally who we work we have a lot of mutual clients uh in Partnerships so we're also integrated so I think the common denominator is Tech and then also maybe over the last few years it's been okay what are you actually good at what's your USP and doubling down on that Tex so for Falcon X you know we have a couple of different vertical and you'll see our name pop up uh increasingly now that we have a European franchise but at the core of everything we do we aggregate liquidity and we price liquidity and we want to get our clients access that liquidity and so whether that's ETFs in the US where any day we're between 25 and 35% of the Native execution for all the

Bitcoin ETFs um similarly in Australia we we're involved in the day one launch there in Hong Kong are retail aggregators and so anyone Trad in a retail app in Europe we want to dominate that space as we've done in the US and so be behind the scenes Whit listing and and netting a lot of that flow uh our Quant funds that are trading latency I wouldn't say latency sensitive but latency aware strategies and so going back to the first question on speed less because of the market dynamics and the inefficiencies in crypto because of fragmented liquidity you're less sensitive to latency right and so in trafi you know I'm sure we're all aware but at trafi Quant fund if you blink your eyes their their orders to Market are about 10 times as the speed of a blink of an eye which is actually quite

scary right and so you know if you're based in London like I am and and the ls's exchanges uh terminals in slau that's exactly ld4 which is exactly what all the hedge funds face all the Brokers uh terminals are right beside right because of that latency so in crypto you know we've actually relocated our server to Tokyo um but you know you're talking about a roundtrip if I'm a Swiss Dom assult Quant or London dult Quant it's still sub 1 second but it's nowhere near the speed of a Trad V latency order um because it doesn't need to be right there's efficiencies there there's inefficiencies there I should say whether it's cross exchange Arbitrage or basis and so that covers a lot of what trfi would actually try and compete with and so you know execution quality is important and so the AL goes you know

they're actually probably more difficult to I would say um design if you think of you know the the per exchange and the ability to trade on your own keys and a sub account key and the and the different sub accounts and Talis have done a phenomenal job there making that accessible to to our mutual client base so yeah I think infrastructure speed less important more about reliability of your technology what does that technology open up to you as a client uh cognizant that no one provider offers everything you need right you probably need to work with a mix of us yeah so I hear all four of you about cost and about reliability that's awesome but I've got the Dilemma there so on the cost side we've seen a lot of Regulation that actually starts Rising the cost and

then at the same time clients want to have security wants to have reliability right how do you balance between between the two of them uh a do yeah I can take that I think um our client once said this very succinctly and and I kind of want to wait into a bit of a conversation around buy versus build because that will actually address a lot about you know rising cost and what do we do do we try to continue to Cobble what we can do in house because inherently the default idea if we do things in house is is cheaper know um on the surface but then in the medium to long term then you got to think about whether we need to look out outside but the I've always argued and the client

said you know sometimes I need to build before I know what I need to buy or the vice versa I need to the build to buy right so it's it's it's that it's that conundrum of you know should we just down tools or and look outside uh I think it's it's a case of again back to some of the key principles uh where you in the business where you think your growth path is focus on the niche that you know you you are successful with and then sort of work with the other part Partners who have spent considerable am effort and resources focusing on their nich as well so that together two mixes a much bigger hole and you know two

parts become much more successful um that goes very much in line with um the the carry cost burden from a regulatory conformance point of view I don't think all of us a few of them in this room I'm sure are fantastically are uh compliant and they you know your you know your rules in a back of a hand but majority of us working in this industry know we are Onslaught with new rules all the time and we have to defer to uh experts to help us navigate through that so for us to then suddenly say you know we will have a fantastic system that knows how to interpret all these rules I think that's after sorry for my language so this late in the day but that's that's the true element so sof

what I'm saying in a nutshell is got to stick to what we're good at stay through to the path and be open-minded know what you mentioned before uh and recognize that uh we need to build good integration uh good Partnerships um and working tandem yeah I think it's our kind of ethos is building it the right way so we've been around for kind of 11 12 years which in crypto is a lifetime um it's always been a regulatory first approach and I think all of the participants here adopt that same approach the rules have not been straightforward to interpret if there are even rules in place uh and so it is about engaging with Regulators trying to

launch our products so you know we have two regulatory licenses in the US to take care of business there in Europe we've come to Germany um not always the easiest place in traditional Finance or in crypto to get regulated but we wanted that kind of gold standard so we're set up there we've got Mas coming in Singapore and we've got a Dubai entity setting up as well so it's trying to make sure that you you navigate and you do your best with the regulations that are there cost will come into it at some point and then we have to rely on our partners and we know that figment uh example on the staking side are highly aware of kind of regulatory outcomes and we were speaking yesterday around some of the ofac pieces that that figment do uh the same with Falcon X regulatory

licenses we want to partner with them a lot of the clients we're we're going after our kind of the well-known institutional names and that that's super important to them and the same with with tals it's and that's I think why we all work together so closely um there are other partners obviously in the ecosystem that we work with uh it's not just the four of us but uh we do think that that's extremely important in the infu space add to your point so it's about looking from the lens of the our clients uh if we adopt what they are thinking and their challenges there were for far better chance of getting it more right so it's about the efficient workflow that we're trying to put together depending on which part of the food chain we are on um so having that client perspective is so key and crucial

in building and offering our a solution um whe it's combined you know tiered or stand alone yeah but it's also making sure that all the customers have this information when they're deciding who to work with um you know you talked earlier about reliability right the cost reliability I think what customers institutional customers are looking for is is battled tested infrastructure um and sometimes they say battle tested infrastructure and they don't know what they mean by battle tested infrastructure um but it's generally looking at you know providers in the space and and comparing um comparing the offering and the

reliability of it by the the team and the size and the experience of the team um by you know the the um the amount of time and tenure they've been working in the industry to provide these services are they a a startup of two weeks ago with two people in a basement or are they a a large and well respected institution because it is you know things happen quickly in this industry but it's very difficult to suddenly have a startup um today that has the same experience and infrastructure as one that has been um in in the industry for a while and and then it's important to look at the metrics that you are f

focused on when you're looking at Battle tested infrastructure I'm going to Pig you back on that battle tested uh infrastructure and um let's make an exercise of thought so exactly four years ago it was June 2020 um most of us were in lockdown and suddenly something magical happened it was the defi summer so we've seen the emergence of maker we've seen the emergence of compound a and all of those like startups yeah um technology that is yet to be battle tested and the ethos back then was that we're going to reduce

the Reliance on middleman however over the years we've seen that the prime brokerage space um didn't disappear it continue to transform it contined to evolve so Tommy where are we at today um look I think you made a good point on regulation and costs as well and and just pain Devil's Advocate was there some really good um Tailwinds this year with Meek obviously coming in in first of July and then also the US and the move we've seen there not just with the e um ETF but the broader uh sentiment and obviously the presidential election but you know if you break down regulation on a global level what does it lead to leads to fragmented liquidity right and so look I don't love reading

regulatory updates either but clients do love the inefficiencies between that what that fragmented liquidity provides right and so most of our clients Mutual clients are hitting you know IR hit targets of 25 30% which when treasuries pay you five is pretty attractive right and so that we still need those inefficiencies to sort of get more institutional money to come into crypto in parallel with with stronger regulation so we've seen that stronger regulation but I look at it as it's kind of a it's a helpful um problem to have and also you know people get worried about fragmented liquidity FX is the largest market that trades globally every day and that's fragmented and and bulk of that is OTC and so our our you know we have the biggest OTC desk globally on our spot side between 65 and

70% of the Bitcoin trades are all off exchange and they net it down that's no different to trafi right and if you look at European equities you know my one of my former shops Goldman Sachs between Goldman JP and Morgan they're like 55 60% of the Euro stocks volume on a daily basis and so there is that concentration of liquidity um so I think that doesn't hurt us that actually helps us in terms of prime brokerage I think that space is very Dynamic and evolving and so um which is why I I really enjoy being in it it's about providing Solutions really to clients and I think Brett mentioned you know a lot of our mutual clients it's Partnerships right and it's it's how can we solve um you know and and certainly with Talos as well it's the full Suite of trading access trading

settlement is such so much more difficult than trii because of the prefunding requirement and the market structure um but you know I think the the the solutions we've provided across the suite of credible providers um is allowing you know big institutions to come into the space and so you know even at Falcon X we've run a trillion dollars of OTC spot with 20 people in their middle office um which is pretty incredible when you think and that's all Technology based because the technology works and you know again we're kind of leading the way there as much as that's a challenge for for us right now you know Trad FES following as we saw us are moving to T1 settlement and at some point we'll move to you know um uh t0 right and and so again by with more instruments coming online and onto the

chain um you know that's where our technolog is actually a little bit ahead of trif yeah I think the prime broker space in in the kind of digital asset world is is different uh to trafy um a lot of our businesses are um I think there are a handful like Falcon X that are building it the right way uh couple of years ago when I I moved into crypto mainstream kind of working everyone seemed to be a prime broker and I said what is this um but you know on the fundamental level and and you know Tommy can maybe agree or disagree but Prime Brokers provide Market access they're a conduit into the market um but what comes with that is you then have this kind of collateral

management layer and you need to be able to move funds around efficiently for those kind of funds or trading entities to be able to operate efficiently um I'd say there's probably two or three that that do it really well in the crypto space um you want them to be well funded uh you want them to act in the right way you want them to look at regulations you want them to engage with you and and they're not just looking for the short term uh I think we've seen in the last 18 months two years that you know it's been a struggle for people there's been you know crypto winter um and I think the the people that are there now and coming to the top I think they built their businesses in the right way they engaged with their clients in the right way and you're seeing that kind of the

infrastructure that's then been built in the meantime uh we'll hopefully stand that test of time and I mean we've been helping on a different way in terms of the way our our custody network uh acts now Tommy mentioned it you know so you can trade from Cold Storage with us you can stake from Cold Storage any client that's on our Network you can move the assets seamlessly around without them uh ever leaving that cold storage that insured Cold Storage uh access point so it's you know that's Prime brokerage we're not the prime broker but we help them figment helps in another way and Talos helps in another way so when we go back to the the fundamentals of crypto infrastructure we are all working together um and we all do have to do different pieces to help each other out yeah so helping

partnering Eva what makes a great partner um I mean I think we've we've touched on some of the the points today but uh and and we were actually discussing this yesterday through during this week and you know I think a good partnership um is very much like a a marriage in that you your values are aligned right um and I think that you've probably noticed that by us sitting up on stage here and not necessarily all saying no I totally disagree with what what what everyone said we're we're all agreeing on what's important because to to have a good partnership I think you do have to agree on what is what is important um whether it's for your customers or the the values for your

business so for for us you know it's it's security um uh security reliability um and then the commerciality of it so we could you know have the same values and objectives but if we can't reach a commercial solution where we all feel like we're winning then the partnership won't be successful if one party feels like that they have the the raw end of the deal um it's not going to go to go anywhere so I'd say you know you start from a foundation of similar values of of trust security of this battle tested infrastructure all of these things that we've been been discussing today and then you couple that with a uh commercial agreement and

Commercial understanding that both parties are are um uh are feeling like their services are valued and they feel like that they're achieving something you combine those two things together and then you go after the right customers together um you know if if we're both looking at completely different segments of the market that probably won't work how do we pitch to one side of the market versus another where we if we take that um that focus on the same uh institutional customer uh commercially variable Arrangement and and and similar values I think you couple all of those three things together and you have a great a great setup for a partnership you mentioned one side of

the market and the other side of the market and Tommy you mentioned the liquidity out there so um I think whenever we we speak with businesses they're in struggle for liquidity but then if we look at the macrospace there is a sort of consensus uh building that liquidity is going to raise and it's going to grow and grow over the coming months quarters maybe years so the question for all of you is is your infrastructure ready for an influx of liquidity and how do you prepare for that i' I mean I'd say from from our point of view yes but within reason so

we've been around for over a decade we've seen a couple of waves of kind of influxes into crypto and we can handle in those and pick those up as we move into new jurisdictions though we have to set up new entities potentially onshore to custody people's assets we can't necessarily do it from the other locations local rules might not allow that to think that we can then build that and and create a like for- like model so that let's use our us model and and coming into Europe can we have all of the services and functions that we do here here on day one perhaps not so the answer is yes but with an also an element of no as we set up in Singapore under Mas will it have all of the services or does it need to have all of the services those questions remain

but in terms of scaling to on board an influx of clients um like we saw a few years ago then I would say yes we we should be able to to take care of that but it will also come down to prioritization um you know we have a handful of clients you Falcon X are coming to us and let's say they're asking for XY Z like any business you have to to work out what the development cost of doing that is versus the the risk and and the return uh ratios as well yeah I think it's a great great question I mean from our client lens it's really I guess they decipher between listed liquidity or trafi liquidity of C Futures now the Bitcoin ETF and Native liquidity um and as we all know some of the exchanges are now

um you know losing market share to CME which is actually a good thing because you know when any exchange loses business they're a bit more receptive to what we've probably been lobbying them to to do in terms of off exchange settlement our different um sort of initiatives uh so again even though CMEs overtaken binance and some of the other exchanges in terms of market share that's positive for crypto because now we're hopefully working towards an ecosystem where we can support and others in our peer group more institutional Capital into the space right so to put you know to almost to grow that liquidity you need an ecosystem where it is easy to trade and and and settle off exchange and use credible counterparts um so I actually think again that that's quite positive what are the challenges um one obvious challenge is well if I can trade on CME

and Bitcoin you know ETFs do I need to trade in in Native right and so you know I believe and I think our firm believes that's your first step you know and for a lot of people then it becomes okay what's my Bitcoin plus strategy right and so uh for a lot of our hedge funds actually they're they're really you know if you've if you've been relying on bitcoin for your performance for the last few years you know you need to wake up and and smell the roses because that investor isn't going to be there for you for your Bitcoin you know they're not going to pay 2 and 20 to invest in a crypto hedge fund when I can just go and hold the ETF for 50 bips and so I think that's again means that that liquidity will move towards the alts um and we're

already seeing that we're not seeing that many new launches I think one surprises I'm not seeing you know there's new money coming in obviously the most successful ETF launch of all time uh surprised of the lag that comes into you know alts normally when bitcoin's had a move you have this lag and then we see it and I that's because that institutional Capital just hasn't come into crypto yet um and so what do we need for that well the US presidential election I think will help um hopefully um and I think then just continued you know the eth ETF is pretty important from that perspective as well um but yeah that's how when we look at liquidity yes it is moving to listed but you know equally the largest capital allocators in the world are trading that listed op future now and so that's great

right like getting the millenniums live and 72 live on CME and then doing a little bit of Futures native is really important I think all of us have been sitting here waiting for that you know price uh price increase increase volatility increase Market activity ETP approvals all of that you know I mean if if we were here on stage last year probably would have hoped we would have been talking about that um I won't talk about it from the liquidity standpoint but from the the market activity point of view I mean we are the largest independent staking provider and that means we have 15 billion in a us so we are we are ready for an influx of more and I think that's that's probably the

same across the board on the stage here you know whether it's um increased uh Au increased AUM uh increas increase liquidity increased volatility you know we've we've all been spending the last 12 months or more building our businesses ready for that and I think that that you know that that's a nice nice problem to have for the industry very good very good um speaking of uh not only nice problems to have but speaking about what gets you excited um I wanted to use the last minutes of the session to ask each of you what moves you out of the bed in the

morning when you go and start your your work day uh BR what do you think normally it's my children coming in and you know proding me but um outside of that I mean from a I guess a crypto landscape I I guess what got me into kind of not got me into crypto but first interested in and how do you move assets around how you use a wallet all those things um yeah one thing I'm interested in at the moment and it's been very relevant with the the GameStop uh price action at the moment I love film making and when I started looking at crypto there was an nft available from a an author that wrote The Social Network the Facebook film um I actually own part of his next script so he issued

three nfts you had to go and buy them uh and he was writing a script around the kind of NF and kind of crypto uh around it was probably around 2020 he was going to write it and so that script is now um ready he's selling it to Hollywood Studios um it's not going to make me a millionaire uh scripts sale for like 100 Grand so but hopefully I'll get my money back on the nfts but uh it's an interesting side bit to my day job okay so kids nfts and movies uh what about you Tommy um I would say I still look at crypto and digitalization has been an iceberg right and we're still above the water and so for me not that I'm a dreamer but I think there's just so much more interesting things to happen um and

that's what I like about Falcon X is is we're really a technology firm and that the challenge that presents and so um rosid and I were at money Amsterdam early in the week and there was a great pensions panel um and you know even with the pension company compan are trying to build you know there $26 billion of unclaimed pensions in the UK alone and so they're working on wallets digital wallets where it just follows you when when you leave employer to employer and so you know that will you know involve Tech and you know there probably be an angle for for each of our firms in that as well so I guess the broader adoption of digital um is what really excites me longer term um and then excited about the targets that my West Coast based management have given mer and I for

Switzerland and other European uh markets as well Eva is adoption also uh what's what's mostly in your mind or something else I mean um I mean I would say maybe the short interest on the Elizabeth Warren meme coin but that's that's simply not true um I I think adoption is and and uh youth cases is definitely one that's very interesting um for me you know I'm definitely started my crypto career in the Bitcoin space so Bitcoin layer 2s we've heard about them from various people today very interesting um stacks and everything that they are building um uh over there and the ability to stake your Stacks tokens and receive your rewards in in Bitcoin that's super

exciting um as well as reaking and and igen layer and what's the next step for um rewards on on eth how can you maximum maximize those uh rewards is it reaking uh is it liquid staking is it using that state e is collateral so that enhancement on on eth is another area which I find super exciting okay I want to understand if RIS taking is exciting or worries you because there are some people out there worried about Rising mean any any new technology that's misused or is not uh given you know given the right attention it deserves can be worrisome uh if it is done in a risk um a risky way yes anything can be

worrisome but I would say overall that side of the industry and and reaking in general is is very exciting all right audris you have the last word uh not what worries you but what excites you so I would take a little bit of everyone's points um so I'm not going to claim fortive so you talk about kids you talk about digital you talk about you know ability to have the ownership and ability to see what's coming up from a taking and being involved in some of the own elements so for for me it's a really personal um yeah it's the digital digitization part is it's about the my my kids future I mean I'll probably be long gone on this planet by by time they

that's realized but uh it's through the four years ago when you said you know we had this uh phenomenal uh def of uh summer I was stuck behind my four screens so I was in trap five at that time and it was the GameStop meme a crazy period where we were transacting way more than anything so I was a little shop called virtue at that time so we had the NCC so this is talking about the American national regulator who came in and said look you guys are you guys do amazing you're helping supporting you know the liquidity of the market but we need you to tell your clients to stop right so it and you got this got this

thing playing out now you got Robin Hood coming into the story with bit Stam it's exciting we're seeing this playing out you know of the move of tral um Finance coming into this space because we are we know deep in our hearts that actually there's a lot of good and benefits out of the underlying technology and the logic that we're trying to argue through sometimes we we go in in a in a bit roundabout way uh we explain it too deep too technical But ultimately there are a lot of benefits that that can be gained and from a social sense as well which is I think you know um might be a bit naive but you know for a long time Financial Services or trading or Finance has this

s of Disconnect to social elements right and long time not too long ago in in 2000 back in 2008 even every cabie in London would tell you they they they know the market you know every Banker is is rotten so there is has been a huge disconnect from a you know social element and social benefit point of view uh with I think financial services so it's a it's a nice time to be able to bridge it through technology um so that would be my excitement that gets me up in going and I note the time so I'm going to finish off with a fast and furious quote for anyone who's a um a fan of dorm or the character played by V

diesel he said um you know it's not about just winning uh by a mile inch winning is winning so I think we're all winners here today the fact that we are talking about crypto are dealing with crypto y you've heard that from AIS um for screens it used to be back in the days now I hope everyone touches some grass and uh keeps an eye on the on the infrastructure rails and uh how the space is going to evolve over time a big round of applause for our panelists and thank you very much thank you