Blockchain in Pharma: A Backbone for the Skeleton of Growth

Transcript

okay cool well thank you very much thank you very much for joining us for this first actual CVA social club uh meeting together having a chat in a more relaxed environment with a with a glass of wine a glass of water whatever you prefer and having a deep talk about interesting topics my name is Dennis flat I'm the chair of the Enterprise blockchain working group um from the CVA the Enterprise blockchain working group has one objective and that is really to promote the usage of blockchain in the Enterprise worlds so we will not talk about digital assets at least not about Bitcoin and Hales and and all these

things we will talk here how we can use that technology in an Enterprise environment and so I'm very honored to have two guests with me today um one side we have uh kman Kul and she is uh in the commercial space of developing researching pharmaceutical products from the R&D down to the downstream so when it's Consumer Testing areas and Clarice Diaz D mut um vice president strategy operations and ecosystems at Farmer leer and I'm very honor very

very honored that we have these talks today and thank you very much for joining us well k um the in your in your area I mean the impact of blockchain and uh and we talked as well before about AI for example yeah uh so so when you look at it how what would be the real impact of these new technologies in your daily work yeah so first of all I was I will try to see if everyone also in the room can hear us without the mics that is okay come closer come closer because otherwise I think it will be difficult

for the online audience um so I've been working for 10 years in in pharmaceutical industry somehow ending in selling or implementing digital Innovation I ended up always doing the digital innovation of course when I started it wasn't about blockchain it wasn't even about AI but what I learned and maybe I will try today to to be the de advocate in in in a way is selling innovation in a large established Enterprise that has a decently well functioning business model like most pharmaceutical you know companies are is not easy especially if you're trying to sell disruptive innovation so what I learned quite early is to try to to find the role of digital Innovation let's say

blockchain in something that that makes sense right incremental Innovation Innovation with with the pit of pragmatism so I was thinking what is blockchain blockchain is a platform that enables external collaboration around data right for from an Enterprise perspective and then I was trying to think you know in in the pharmaceutical industry which use cases or in which situations such an a big Enterprise with very strong business models double digit profits already where would be the interest to for for a CEO or or Finance um Department to look into an innovation to to disrupt their business model and I realize if it's about external collaboration around data there are

three criteria that I I realize it's a bit theoretical but then I'll give you an example of yes and no um so the data needs to be critical for the business right for the business model quite obvious but important the generation of data should be done by external parties that the Enterprise cannot control right so the more external parties are generating this data the more difficult for the Enterprises to reach out and collect the data in a different way so there is a need there right and the third one is who uses the data the more this data is used by external stakeholders the better now very theoretical of course we start from from there an example of where blockchain would not make sense is a CRM let's say

CRM sales data important for the business yes are they gener by an external a lot of external stakeholders not really we can buy data it's very access is very easy easy to used by external stakeholders not really it's usually for internal stakeholders to set up bonuses whatever now at case where blockchain would work with the same model would be decentralized Health Data or I think Clarice you you will cover a lot of things you know supply chain um yeah there there are many other things but in this case Health Data important absolutely if you don't work in Pharma probably you don't know but 80% of the price of the medicine is data is clinical trial right this data generated by millions of

patients outside of clinical trial super difficult to get access and mostly where this data is used is by Regulators or Healthcare professionals to decide whe to Grant access to the medicine to prescribe so in these cases blockchain makes sense and that yeah somehow I wanted to reiterate this pragmatic approach in a way to Innovation especially in the context of companies that already work well and they already you know have a double digit Revenue that that is sustainable for the time being yeah that would be a long answer too are you so interesting what you say because I remember half of my family of my relatives are working in Pharma um so

that's why I know a bit about it but when we had Co yeah then basically my my my brother and law told me you know what was funny about Co it was not a problem to get data because everybody was so panicking and the shareed data across companies of man love shared data with Novartis and so and things that would usually be not possible yeah and I think that's as well something that faler actually uh wants to help with in by by their work in the blockchain area um so so what is the impact of blockchain for for farmal leer and for you business well the the first of all thank you for having me here hello everybody

um blockchain is the enabler not blockchain per se because we believe that there will continue to be evolution of how the technology goes the technology may be ready but blockchain per se and the hype that was created around blockchain becomes an enabler for a a conversation opener all of a sudden we now have the possibility of imagining Solutions which are impacting competitors and the entire supply chain of medications or the clinical trial stakeholders as a whole and for the first time we have an opportunity of preserving sensitive data while transferring data at ease this was not

possible before in a secure way that would fulfill requirements that regulate the the healthc care space and the Pharma space as Carman well said data is the the core is at the core of the business model of the pharmaceutical industry and I would say of healthcare we are all patients here and we all know the value that uh uh our data as a patient has to ourselves and how the access to that if it is democratic and we have access from multiple parties it makes our life easier in taking care of ourselves and taking care of others so blockchain is actually the conver ation starter I don't like to to to to say that blockchain is the beginning and the

end blockchain is really just the opportunity for us to say there is a new opportunity out there for us to collaborate in a different way in a pre-competition way in a way where we can invest in a shared infrastructure and make sure that this unavoidable digital disruption that is happening with multiple applications have a home that is secure that has standards and that fulfills regulatory requirements so it is a it is the beginning the change is the beginning it's not there for sure where this phase of decentralization is more the topic yeah blockchain is the first element because it's the most hyped and the the beginning of it I hear you I think you agree I mean yeah and I

mean the title of this is the backbone for skeleton of grones and yeah it's definitely an important backbone um at the end it is a network you know at the end when you take it very clear it's a it's a network and only as valuable of what you are doing on the network so and then always comes the question about the use cases huh what are the key use cases and I know for example Claris you have three core use cases in farmal leure uh so so one is the Product Trust one is the um the the decentralized trials M and one is the supply chain can you tell us a little bit so what is the status of

these use cases at Farmer lecture and how happy are you with them well I I don't think it's a matter of happiness I think it's a matter of resilience at this point right it's a matter of you understanding that uh blockchain and decentralized systems are still in their infancy and they are still use that in a localized manner right so there are lots of companies every day coming up and saying we are using blockchain we are developing blockchain we are creating products with blockchain but the truth is that it's still everything happening in a siloed manner even for a decentralized system so um in foral ledger so I don't know how much you you've heard of phal Ledger

but phal Ledger started as a uh a joint undertaking between the European Union and the European Federation of pharmaceutical Industries and associations and a a joint investment into a research about can this technology help us solve some of the pressing issues of Health Care not only of Pharma Pharma is one key element of health care but health care is way broader than that so during that uh that project we researched uh it was very Democratic and we went through a series of Youth cases and and voting by the members of what are the use cases that you're most interested on and after going from from 90 something use cases

to 25 use cases to up to eight cases we landed we realized that actually it formed the value chain on its own the use cases that had the most interest and what I mean with value chain not supply chain but value chain is that use cases were spread from uh um research and development up to personalized medicines then to supply chain and then we realized that okay from the moment m in which we build this organization this pre-competition nonprofit Association that is trying to bring the the stakeholders of healthcare together to co-create around those youth cases we realized that actually we had already a

set of Youth cases that had been researched on and that we should bring into the organization as and put it on store and wait for the right moment to re accelerate and ignite the the the development and testing in the deployment of those so those happen to be classified within specific areas and with that as part of the strategy of pla we imagined the digital trust ecosystem which is this infrastructure that connects a platform for Product Trust where we look at electronic product information and patient interaction applications that it looks for uh detecting falsified medicines so

anything that brings trust in the medication that you have in front of you would fit within that Product Trust platform so there are multiple use cases within those platforms then decentralized trials where you would have a link with supply chain when it comes to clinical supply for example how do you Monitor and ensure that the the medications which are not yet serialized and finalized how they reach the right patients and how can we help clinical trials to have higher adherance and and lower dropping rates to accelerate the production and discovery of medications going through also personalized medicines connecting iot devices and Etc and then also the supply chain is the whole supply chain of of farm and of

Health Care is a big use case for uh decentralized uh trusted systems like blockchain so three platforms encompassed by what we call the digital trust ecosystem I found it interesting that in in the pharmaceutical industry it seems to work that you find the standard for for managing the on tracking the supply chain why when you when when I looked at the financial industry uh I mean they had we had blockchain use cases and they all faded recently and went bankrupt basically so I find it quite interesting that in in in a in the industry and it

shows when really everybody wants to participate and sees an added value in it then then it's going to work but when everybody is only half-hearted with it then it's not going to work would you would you agree to that statement who is everybody first I would I would ask because we were just having a chat I have a colleague here from a PL member from Alpac Kristoff is here and we were just talking about that so you can have pharmac companies and service providers and the world of healthcare is really really big and very often you have the organization that can invest and have that you know uh uh disposed uh disposed Capital to be able to invest on innovation without being

hurt by it failing those organizations are also uh a very large in number of staff so the right person interacting with the initiative is key having the support and having Visionary uh leadership is key for that to move forward something you would say when you look at successful use cases first of all what our successful user is from your perspective and yeah and second what what what would you say is key for them yeah I was thinking I don't know much about Pharma Toof Pharma collaboration I think that that's your R of expertise I was more thinking um about you know how businesses go to

marketing and and be successful right and then apply in a way that framework into how would we sell let's say a blockchain into a market which would be the Enterprise internal Enterprise right so I can bring some contributions from that that side but then I think the more interesting case is industry platforms right which which you you mentioned so you know very simply how businesses succeed in Market if they have the right product addressing the right customer at the right time for the right price so super simple but then what would it mean for for us to sell the product which is let's say the blockchain within the Enterprise having the right product I think is what I alluded to before a use case

where it makes sense where data is important for the business it cannot be you know easily captured by the Enterprise in in another way and where the use of the data is by external stakeholders that the you know the Enterprise cannot control right so quite quite simple that's internally externally the right product I would agree with Clarice is the one where the users don't know what they're using is based on blockchain it's a little bit like the HTTP or whatever emails work on like do we need to know as consumers that you know the technology that we use to exchange emails is a specific one not really just the product needs to be you know relevant for what we need easy to use and and trust it right so quite simple things in terms of you know the

first kind of key success factor is having the good the right product I think the second one and let's see how much time we have for the for the other two is the right customer and I think since blockchain and I think it's less than 10 years maybe seven five seven years that blockchain has been used in Enterprise settings especially in Pharma I think you guys were probably the first um using it so for for such a young technology uh to be implemented in Enterprise setting I think having the right customer is probably one the most important of the four four pillars at this point right so role of sponsors role of Partners internally finding them

externally as well KS I think the most difficult part and probably we will talk about it is to for the Enterprises for Pharma companies to work collaboratively with with their stakeholders and understand they're not the center of the universe even if we all say we're patient Centric it you know it's very difficult to do that so finding that that internal stakeholder that you know accepts and degrees and is driven by either fear or greed in a way to accept Innovation is probably the most important and then being on the right time I think we all know what's happening in the world if we want to go to the CEO to say can you give me a multi-million uh dollar budget for five

years to implement something on blockchain they say have you seen inflation have you seen interest rates have you seen you know the economy um no right so timing will be important as well as the price and when I say price is probably the business case and I think you guys work in healthcare or large organizations would you raise your hand if you do okay you would know what is a business case obviously nothing nothing is approved and and um goes in in in a large organization without a business case for the rest probably it's something a bit uh foreign what is most important again is to win the business case before it's presented right nothing

new here for you guys but I find those four elements as critical success say probably they're not blockchain specific you would realize that but I think Innovation is just Innovation is change management is a business case well done and I would probably call it here yeah let's Deep dive um on success factors in in in a second but I would as well to take the or to give the opportunity to the audience here in souk uh to ask questions when you have a question for our two panelists here there's one have um [Laughter]

sorry the what extent is in that Business Without disruption of all the elements distribution and especially the medical distribution system which is very costly pry uneffective to what extent would we need disruption of that level as well to yeah to to move forward because if you're just using blockchain technology and the established world of pharmaceutical industry it's just probably an efficiency case yeah and the other I'm pretty much missing not only this

industry but all the other industry but particular in that industry some sort of more disruptive way to different good I just repeat the question so that the people online can hear us as well so the question was does it need a disruption especially of the distribution Network as well within the pharmaceutical uh area uh because blockchain seen as a as as an efficiency um gain winner but when I understand the correct there you know what what is when you have certain distribution Gatekeepers in there um and would they would they need to be

disrupted by blockchain technology too or are they part in that change yeah who wants to take the question I I can take so and this would be a little bit a mix of an experience and and a personal view to that right so I personally do not like to use theu the word disruption the the healthc care uh industry the pharmaceutical industry is a very conservative environment it is going to be extremely harder than what it is already if we start talking about disruption disruption gives you a feeling of something will be

discontinued something you may start may not right so I I I like to look at the idea that it will need adoption for adoption on initial use cases and initial Maybe business cases that will pay off less than what the bigger Vision could bring so it will need Vision it will need atite it will need investment this is part of the challenge of getting it together and making it happen but if you envision the benefits of it there are new business models that will come because of the adoption of a decentralized supply chain for instance so it is for me less about disruption and more about adoption and getting GA

in the idea that before we invest so much money into deploying applications into multiple markets and competing in areas that are not our you know core competitive uh uh um value let's get together on a pre-competition setting where we can agree the rules of the game and then everybody can put their applications on top so it's about adoption for me it's not about disruption disruption is a consequence but would you like to have a supply chain of medications disrupted I know I would not like because I wouldn't get my meds so ultimately I want the organizations that surround that supply chain to adopt new technologies so they

can better serve me I don't want them to disrupt anything yeah maybe my take would be if your question would be does the business model of the entire you know research and development of a medicine how medicine is brought to the market should that be disrupted I would say of course it takes 10 to 15 years to bring a medicine to Market and two to three billion dollar so imagine if you know that cost would be and time would be reduced by half how much would we pay for our medicine much less so huge disruption would be fantastic for society in this case would the blockchain be the enabler and the

accelerator of that change I don't think so I think it would be a I and I start to to promise that for for the benefit um and then blockchain could be the enabler right could be the support and I think we will get to to this use case so I would say yes for disruption overall I couldn't talk about yeah um manufacturing but in the R&D space I think we all would benefit if we paid half you know half the price of the medicines and we would get them especially for diseases that don't have a treatment right now if we would get them much faster then the other disruption would be kind of Downstream in in you know once the medicine is in there's a lot of health

and my focus is on the centralized Health Data and who owns that data right so in the real world we take medicines we get care for whatever we do that data doesn't belong to us right now right it belongs to the hospital it belongs to the clinical trial sponsor it belongs to the Pharma industry should that data be ours and should we be the only owners and the the beneficiaries and you know could we benefit could we be the ones who share our own data of course yes yes yes that should be the real transformation is the Pharma industry the first to jump in the train of transformation and disruption of on that side probably not not without regulation and a bit of community push but both

areas should be disrupted I would agree yeah I mean that is pretty much in line what we discussed as well in the Enterprise blockchain working group one since one one of the key success factors is well don't disrupt the incumbent because when you try to do that you will lose and and and your Innovation will not succeed uh so so one one aspect of success work res said there is well we need to have easy plugins from existing processes and existing workflows into uh the blockchain network and the blockchain use case behind that and when you achieve that and and the existing companies on the market don't

have to change too much in their existing workflows then that is definitely one factor that needs to be happened that the entire thing becomes a success you mentioned a use case um in the R&D uh space that you would say that is quite uh uh where blockchain really plays an important Ro can you deep dive on that one a bit yes because I was just researching we're preparing a report through CVA through sustainability working group to look at some decentralized Health Data um practices and for example I came across it's it's about what we were discussing R&D research and development takes 10 to 15 years two to three billion you know what if what if we could disrupt that and cut

it in half and apparently one company which is in silico medicine probably some of you I think Natalia probably you know about it um they are us biotech and and they say I haven't confirmed that I only know the information from from yeah public information is that their entire R&D U process so from preclinical trial to clinical trial to kind of you know uh commercialization is run through Ai and what they have noticed is that they reduce by really by half the time and the cost to bring new medicines to the market so that's AI you say what does it have to do with blockchain now what I anticipated I think we already see what

is happening is AI has this problem of being a black box right especially deep neural networks that evolve very quickly at some point nobody really knows how these models you know are trained what uh weights do they use what variables why do they take a decision is the data unbiased biased represented so I see very soon because AI is such a success already and has such a potential to D and for the good I see very soon in Pharma especially and Healthcare The Regulators and the healthcare professionals asking you know the producers let's say an Enterprise like ours say you know what is the data set you use your AI model is it biased is it representative uh why did you choose

these uh variables ver the others why are you recommending me this treatment versus the other right so I think that is a very interesting and exciting use case that has momentum and has tangible benefits right so through AI okay that that's that's fair and it will be required I don't see it not being required to explain basically the a model and how blockchain can do that it's an open Ledger it's traceable it's auditable there is decentralized file Computing you know where data sets can can stay and be and be track so there is an industry opening up so it is like you see the the case there's the digital twin of data or the

or the the trust proven data set that you have and I mean that is very similar to The Product Trust that that that farmer leer is working on but it all means as well and we have not talked about that success factor yet which is I mean you you just covered a bit on it which is standardization and governance that is as well I mean formal leure I understand that formal leure is actually this kind of governance or um uh or standardization body within the farmer industry isn't it uh it's what we aspire to get too of course so phology Association is uh now one year and few months old as a as a legal

entity as a a formed Incorporated Association and uh we say that we have a the purpose is the enablement of the digital trust ecosystem as I said but the mission is to help you know the companies that are within the sectors to solve problems that they cannot solve alone and to achieve that we as you said well especially in the area of Health Care you need to do that through collaboration facilitation governance development of Standards or acceptance and formalization of the facto standards that already exist to through other uh uh players in the market uh and yes the formal Association aims to to to support the industry

throughout that Journey uh of facing the the the challenges and the opportunities that AI for example will bring I absolutely agree with Carmen I think um for us to explore and to enable the true potential that AI can bring to health care we need to agree on the you know ground rules of how that will operate and that has to be auditable that has to be transparent to the right in in power folks and and you cannot achieve that you cannot regulate AI through AI right so you will need a pairing of an additional technology that can give you that kind of transparency and security around uh around data Yeah you mentioned before um that it is you know blockchain

is like HTML or email like it is a it is a technology that runs in the backbone and people don't really need to understand the technology but they need to understand the value that it brings for them the case for it because as you said the the the right product at the right moment at the right customer which by the way is well I earn my money and I can tell you it is not that easy no but um so so so and now now we talk here about something very sensitive and that is data about your health yeah and we need that data dat from the people and how do you see we

can how how what do we need to do that people are trusting that here yes this is now blockchain but they don't know blockchain because it's in the backbone it's somewhere in between we all are experts we trust blockchain and the Technologies but a normal person on the street yeah the normal person that is a that is you know that doesn't care about blockchain they care about do i smok a or not so what how do we convince them that they should give their data for R&D in health care and getting medications faster I I first we give them access to their own data I would start there right

so before you can you can ask to use their data because as kman said nowadays the data that belongs to each of us is actually belonging and and and being used by by private servers of you know commercial independent organizations that do not share that profit with me as the data owner so ultimately for me there are several aspects to that the first one is that make data available to them in a format they can see value and they can confume imagine a person with a chronic illness or a person that discovers a new diagnosis that person should know where to go which app to download where she can he or she can get all of their previous examinations and Etc in there so you just that already

helps you manage your health differently and feel more secure that you have an overview nowadays we put we and when I say we I say the industry puts patients through a lot harder uh uh situations when they go through their illnesses so this is one aspect second Democrat democratized monetization of data my data for example there are several chronic and and genetic illnesses in most families in the world all of us have been affected by an illness in our families close to us or even ourselves I personally and I actually would feel interested in knowing if the audience agrees I would feel very happy to volunteer my data for research of

certain diseases that I care about personally for other diseases I would maybe perhaps allow if I can monetize that maybe it can be a instead of a a side hustle I can earn some money from that I can feel that I am not excluded from that propertization of of data right and the second aspect is include patient representatives in the discussion it's not about developing a commercial process consult there are so many patient organizations that are claiming for a space at a table a voice invite them they would voluntarily come and support and give you an opinion and run through their you know volunteers an opinion about what you were doing before you go to market with a a risky investment test it with your intended

audience which are the patients fully agree and I think a very very specific and tangible benefit of blockchain even if you know consumers wouldn't call it blockchain is tokenization right so we're still early again 17 years with blockchain and tokens but as soon as that model works I think we don't need to reinvent the wheel in terms of how consumers regular users can benefit from their data and I think the incentive models are are key here but before that I I think as a blockchain applications consumer blockchain applications not let's say farm and driven or anything it's still usability so we're nowhere there with the blockchain applications I've seen you guys I don't know if you've tried

any blockchain applications for health data management or some other things usability ux UI is still not there right so we're still struggling with login remember 15 P you know passcode passwords whatever seat code so I think that's the first H hurdle to to Cross by the by the blockchain industry and I think once we get that with the the incentive model that is emerging from blockchain which I love I think it's brilliant tokenization is brilliant consensus mechanisms are brilliant I think the other part then you ask you know how can consu patients trust Pharma in this setting is I think when Pharma will decide to be part of the ecosystem

but not in the center and not outside so what I notice now in Pharma especially in this kind of digital Health space it's a dial right it's on off it's not in between you either I give you a grant if you're a farmer you know patient organization or a startup I give you a grant you do whatever you want I don't want to see the patient date I cannot I don't want to have anything with it or I say so critical to me I internalize it I build my you know Enterprise data like I build my Enterprise platform is mine but then there's nothing in between that at this point and I think if value based Partnerships where you know Pharma is an equal partner with a health care provider with a insurer with a patient group sitting at the table with a

patient in the center as it should be as we all say that's what we Aspire for then the trust issue would be solved from a consumer perspective towards farma I think long story but hopefully yeah I mean I really think that there is a and as a basic I mean when you now could take the discussion even into psychology customer consumer psychology then you see actually a motivation of everybody because you know as you said when it helps if my data helps actually to to help myself potentially about suffering from diseases I'm quite willing to do that but we're not approaching the customers yet with those psychological

simple uh demands there um yeah so is there another question from the audience here in the chat yes we have different political systems running Healthcare Systems across the globe now that's a major hardle to what we be talking about because in Europe we're very socialized in medal care in America it's consumer customer driven and without a consensus between two or three of the May consuming groups will we ever reach what we're talking to yeah so the question was there are different governmental

systems behind healthc care for example the Europe which is more social uh social driven while the US is totally differently uh motivated so what are their basis or what are their experiences of going you know across different governmental problems and governmental area I can start with an example so I I recognize you know even from an Enterprise perspective going to market the business models are so different right and it's mostly Europe versus us as you say Asia I think it's it's kind of a mix in between what I think will help is regulation and regulation is coming for

example in Europe I think by next year there will be a European data Spa Health Data space act or something like Le there is regulation that is coming and enforcing and asking all EU member states to share Health Data across borders within you within with the with with gdpr but the data needs to be transferable across um Healthcare Systems within Europe and needs to be accessible to the patient right so exactly the pillar that we were missing to say regulation if you know the the big Enterprises won't change regulation will ask them to change it's a little bit what happens with the big Ty

companies Now The Regulators are starting to understand you know Apple Google maybe we need to do something about all the data they they they have for us I I wouldn't be able to to comment I don't know that market well but I think overall regulation comes and regulation will Empower patients more that you know in the balance of between Enterprises and individuals again like Apple and Google versus US consumers we will get a leverage point there and that will be probably the base of decentralization with blockchain if it helps and you clarus I think you touch a super complex aspect of adoption right

um I I tend to to to look at regulation as a reactive movement rather than an Innovative movement very rarely you will see a regulation that comes out of a future idea or a value proposition that is not yet realized the the the role of of uh you know the the The Regulators in the health space is um also to look at Innovation but we know historically that it's much more a reactive movement to a effect or situation that is already happening and needs remediation or needs some type of control or or or ground rules as what what we are saying so I can speak about how we are approaching

that from The phal Ledger perspective um first we look at Regulators as another but key stakeholder within that uh that space right they are not more or less important than the patients they are not more or less important than the service uh uh companies that provide services to healthcare or even the farmers we we we look at the healthcare stakeholders as each of them having their Lane and but all having the same Rel to make that transformation that we envision in terms of a shared infrastructure for health care to be realized now at this stage that we are when we speak about blockchain and and and decentralized systems being in their infancy and still

very localized the effort we make is of awareness education and value proposition so we do and we did several conversations with the European medicines agency either through pla it's self or through our members so pla is then providing and supporting the members whenever those conversations happen or the members talk to their industry associations that then talk to The Regulators so it is a lot about very often Regulators they are few steps behind the market right because the market keeps moving into an innovation pace and Regulators are a little bit behind so we have to be kind with them as well right they're trying to control something that is already live for five

10 years so what we do is try to tell them how can we bridge that gap of what you're trying to regulate now you're creating and I can give an example we have a the electronic product information of formal Ledger is the product that is out there and it's fantastic has been co-created with patients with Pharma with service providers has a lot of value proposition to it we Face the barrier that because after covid all this digitalization of everything already started regulator started re reting to it so what they thought okay if everything is going to go digital let's create a central repository that is owned by the regulator and then we can validate that those Leaf lights are actually the ones

that are supposed to be there and our role is to tell them hey great you doing that because that's necessary it's already happening but look we have something here that you can put in your road map so you can also Envision what is going to happen and what is going to dis RUP that the the the the current way of doing things and anticipate those change so your researchers can start looking at what we are doing that's what we do I I if anybody has another idea how to approach Regulators in a way that helps them please you know get my number and we should have a talk we need one exactly exactly well that is very was very interesting I think I think we saw

there are definitely use cases yeah on the way there are exist news cases already otherwise the regulator would not react at all and um and and then I'm looking forward for the next couple of years because it sounds like very very um exciting times in Farmer changing with AI and with blockchain technology environments so thank you very much Claris and Carman for the time for having us thank you for coming thank you for coming so we will have here still time for a glass of wine and some Direct conversations to the people online and say was very much thank you to you to participate and we're looking forward to

to Future social club events and the CVA here in the shed or in a venue as for in surich and uh yeah please uh join us for the other ones then as well and we thank you very much for being here today thank you [Applause]