Bitcoin Season 2: Building on Bitcoin

Transcript

our next panel is called Bitcoin season 2 building on bitcoin and this will actually be very interesting since of course most of us think about Bitcoin in terms of store value and means of payment so I'd like to welcome the panel moderated today by CVA board member Jerome Bailey and he'll introduce our guests today okay it go go okay hi everybody so I was waiting looking for a way to transition from SNB

to bitcoin but I had the the question already so thanks for that but today we won't speak about the monetary aspect of Bitcoin the the the one that uh you probably all know uh we'll talk about um the more the expressive expressive of uh of Bitcoin uh so we've called our our panel the season two Bitcoin uh building on bitcoin uh a trend that uh we've seen for the last one and a half year uh and it's a really exciting Trend uh uh on building on bitcoin and uh yeah today we will talk about uh uh I hope you will learn a lot about about um Bitcoin l2s ordinals uh Lightnings uh

we'll talk about Bitcoin model versus the Maxis and uh yeah exciting panel head um I'm uh so yeah I'm Jerome Bay the vice president of the crypto Val Association also doing a business development at adnom and uh I have great panelists with me tonight uh I have Rena show show uh Kevin har and uh and Dan Dan hell so please introduce yourself uh and give us also a fewers on how did you did you did you come into into Bitcoin maybe we can start we hi everyone my name is Reena Shaw I work at trust machines we are a company Building Products on bitcoin both the L1 and L2 previously was an early exec at

binance um my crypto journey is a little bit different I'm from the oil industry and so I learned about Bitcoin straight off an oil rig offshore in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico yeah uh yesterday we talk about the the the link between oil and Bitcoin mining you know what one commodity another commodity excellent Kevin I'm Kevin I'm the CTO at light spark um my Bitcoin Journey was a little bit of a winding Journey so I have been in finance for quite a while now and I worked at Libra DM at meta um we actually originally looked at potentially using Bitcoin for that project and didn't feel like it had what we needed at the time um because

lightning wasn't really mature enough so took a a path there to try to get something that we could use at Facebook and didn't work out so then we ended up spinning out and forming light spark with a similar mission in mind thank you Dan and I'm Dan held and my corporate career I used to lead marketing at Kraken uh one of the earliest product managers in the space as well like blockchain.com back in 2013 and uh you know in parallel to that I've also got around 800,000 followers on Twitter where I tweet about Bitcoin Bitcoin Defi and uh We've we've uh both Rea and I have been looking at the Bitcoin defi space for quite some time so it's about damn time I know yeah so it's uh Bitcoin D5 to me I think is a really exciting

had a new era for Bitcoin okay thanks so have you um you could hear from from the accent or the the street are coming from the US for for this conference so thanks for for joining it maybe it means that something is is happening maybe more in the US we had that that discussion with you uh Rena yesterday uh do you think the the hurt of the new trend is is from the US or is just a chance that you are hold coming from the US for for that reason I fundamentally believe Bitcoin Innovation started in America we've always been Bitcoin first it's Freedom money privacy movement it appeals to all of our American values and there is a reason why a number of us continue to

build on bitcoin even though people have moved on to other chains and such but Bitcoin really appeals to the American ideal M all right so let's set up the scene and uh first uh I will I will let you pick a definition of the of the new uh of the new trend so we've called it uh season uh season two of Bitcoin uh why not about calling Bitcoin Renaissance or Bitcoin second Civil War what' you prefer them all of the above I mean they're they all somewhat describe what's going on uh it is a Renaissance this is a new wave a new moment where innovation and and more much more growth is happening on Bitcoin in terms of

development than any time before it's also a civil war because in a way it's there are conflicting ideals with some I would say largely Puritan minority group where uh they fundamentally don't understand Bitcoin and they're part of the latest kind of Bitcoin Maxi wave where they believe that you know Bitcoin solves moral issues that Bitcoin solves things that Fiat money is the cause of divorce and bad nutrition and things like that which I think is a little bit absurd uh certainly Fiat money does change the world a negative way but I don't think it's it has such far-reaching consequences that it influences everything a moral part of society uh so that that Puritan group believes that anything on bitcoin dirty

is the Bitcoin blockchain uh nfts are dirty and not art uh which is which is kind of funny because I mean all art is subjective like I'm not saying that nfts are an amazing piece of art but certainly if someone wants to buy it that's not an immoral activity so Civil War wise yeah there's a split I would say between the moderate bitcoiners who want to go build on top of Bitcoin and this very newly emergent Bitcoin Puritan Group which only started back in 2019 2020 with the book the Bitcoin standard by safine where he demonizes things like art and things that he subjectively doesn't like and labels that as Fiat so that's kind of the difference between the two groups so yes all the above it's a civil war it's a revolution it's a

Renaissance um all the above yeah and and when did when did it really start it I I've said maybe one one one and a half year ago with with the ordos but uh can can we include Lightnings as the like the OJ of season 2 or how do you see Lightnings connected with this new uh New Wave so I think lightning still fits in with kind of the season one if you want to call it that um and I think if you really want to Define season one it's kind of figuring out what the product Market fit was for Bitcoin at a time and I think that that kind of ended up coming down to being able to have an investment asset and there's still a subset of people that treat Bitcoin

purely as an investment asset and I was recently talking to a big wallet developer who mentioned that they typically see a lot of people use Bitcoin only wallets and they use it as an investment and then they have their wallet for everything else so for all the other coins they use this alternative wallet and and they treat Bitcoin as a completely separate thing and that's kind of the the thesis of Bitcoin season 1 I guess is that it was an investment asset where you're actually able to save and hold money for a long term and these other chains are used for other things and that's kind of bled into now season 2 as well where you see people that want to keep Bitcoin as this pure asset where you don't have

nfts you don't have any of the shitcoins or anything where people feel like that is kind of polluting the purity of Bitcoin and I think lightning still fits in with the original ethos of you're able to transfer money you're able to save money it just helps scale Bitcoin a little bit more whereas kind of the things in season 2 are things that are maybe less pure and go against what a lot of the ogs kind of feel is something that is they don't want polluting Bitcoin I would push back a little bit on that because I'm part of the oldest o cohort from the 2011 through like 2014 era that group was actually very open-minded with things for example nfts started on bitcoin started with

counterparty ethereum popularized them and then they came back to bitcoin later rare Pepe and so the original o the oldest cohort of bitcoiners were actually pretty open-minded I mean like so you know uh Charlie Lee loves Bitcoin but he created Litecoin just for fun and then you have uh you know for example The Narrative back then was let's let the shitcoins go experiment and then we'll take whatever code that or whatever insights that developed over there those in that test net and bring that back to bitcoin so I would say the earliest cohort of ogs is very open-minded with it when it comes to building on top of Bitcoin um but yeah certainly there are members of that of course that don't like nfts and everything else so I wouldn't completely

disagree but the I think the original cohort of bitcoiners are pretty open-minded about building even in like the 2011 Satoshi chats um sat had always thought what if you recycled Bitcoin security and build layers on top he had seen this vision from the beginning but um didn't have the quite frankly the crowd support to continue on this path and uh season 2 has reactivated it um I've tried to uh to to to define the the transition or the evolution from monetary to exclusivity of Bitcoin and uh let me know if you if you agree so does does this Bitcoin transaction have extra data Beyond BTC transfer or does it not and extra data would mean

non-monetary and arbitrary data and would it be a good overall definition and what would you add uh to that I think arbitrary is a little bit demeaning when you say it that way it sounds you know sounds silly or something so if Bitcoin was ever going to be the global Reserve asset of the world it was going to have to interact with other assets eventually um people also forget that tether started on bitcoin using Omni so tether started on bitcoin and was being transferred on bitcoin till fees got too high and that's where tether is now transferred primarily on other chains um things like tether or the stablecoin assets you could then you know with smart contracts you could borrow dollars using your Bitcoin as collateral and unlock what we've seen over on ethereum and salana

unlock this much bigger digital circular economy the uh the circular economy that bitcoiners has been looking for you know some of the newer bitcoiners think that it's with payments buy you know spend coffee on things you go by a by a hamburger at a restaurant but we've seen over 12 years that not many people want to do that but what they do want to do is they want to participate in speculate in a digital circular economy which is as evidenced by salon and ethereum and other smart contract platforms so the dig the circular economy we were looking for wasn't physical it was digital and I think success for Bitcoin is this arbitrary as you put it arbitrary data on the Bitcoin blockchain because this represents Bitcoin being financialized

and becoming the pristine piece of collateral for you know becoming the world's next new world Reserve currency yeah um maybe let's start talking about l2s uh Bitcoin L2 so what's the most exciting um l2s or Tech of the l2s that that you thinka uh happenening right now I'm a little biased because I'm a core developer for Stacks at Bitcoin L2 but when I think about l2s all I'm looking for is cheaper faster better that's it you can debate the technical warrants of what consensus mechanism you use what bridging mechanics or anything or what language but cheaper faster better if if

your transaction fees are not cheaper what is the point because Bitcoin is sometimes too expensive to use in the L1 faster if you're not giving me salana or better speed not a chance in heal that I'm going to use it and then better is probably the most subjective but when I'm looking at an L2 can I deploy my BTC Capital into defi can I build spark contracts can I meme on it can I do more with my Bitcoin to move from passive asset to productive asset that to me defines a true L2 more so than anything else what Stacks we're a growing community of uh Builders trying to financialized Bitcoin in a way that any chain can actually deploy BTC Capital but there are others still contributing as well

so I'm obviously biased as well because we're building on Lightning so um I would say lightning is is the one but uh I think there's there's a lot of interesting things that are coming out now so if you look at some of the things with bit VM and some of the proposed things with new OP codes there's a lot that you can potentially do with less trust um I think that there are certain folks that won't be as comfortable with what are effectively Federated side chains um but there are ways to potentially make those into something that is more trustless when you're able to add new OP codes that can do new things and I think that once you get to that point then there becomes a lot more that is actually open to development

that you can actually do in a more secure way and I think that starts to open the door let's double click on BVM I heard BVM so that's in the best world I hear all the time uh and I read all the time on Twitter so what is BVM and is it only theoretical is it exist uh Dan what you say yeah well I was going to say too on the L2 front I'm uh let the all the flowers bloom sort of vibe Stacks lightning all incredibly important l2s there's a lot more coming out and to Kevin's point you know I think uh a lot of these do resemble more of a a Federated multisig model essentially a large multisig uh which isn't the best game theoretic security you could have

but with opcat and other op codes we could potentially have trustless bridging and these l2s to look more like a true L2 so want to say that there's a lot of l2s coming out there I think there's going to be a lot of excitement around building uh with these different l2s um with bit VM from my understanding it's again I think this a better question probably for Kevin but uh bit VM I think is more theoretical at the moment it is not in production it's not live uh bit VM essentially is how how can you enable you know like trustless bridging on top of Bitcoin and BVM is an architecture that uh I believe is currently just theoretical I don't I think there's a the fraud proofs and other things in order to to secure the

bit VM I believe are extremely large and so that's why it's theoretical but I'd punt this over to Kevin I think technical he probably knows a bit more so when you look at BVM it's its goal is to make t completeness on bitcoin and the way it does that is it breaks down any program into core n Gates that you can then use to build out the program you kind of put those into the tap leaves and then you execute it offchain whenever there's a dispute on what actually the result of it was you effectively bict the program and try to find where the executor was incorrect if you're able to do that you can claim the fund um it's pretty theoretical at this point there's a lot of work going on to implement

small subprograms you can use to then build into larger programs because you don't actually want just Nan Gates you want it to be portions that are larger so that you don't actually have to completely go from scratch on each program that you're building and you actually can do it more efficiently now the latest proposals I've seen aren't really that great honestly um there's a lot that still needs to be built on it so if you look at the core way that it works you have let's say 100 entities that are able to be the the core entities that are part of the bit VM Bridge or rollup those are the only ones that can actually challenge for if something's going wrong they additionally need to have have a lot of liquidity to be able to pay out

for people that want to withdraw from the bridge for example um so they have like a six-month window where the bridge operator can get their money back afterwards if there's no challenges so they have to have additional liquidity to actually pay out people that want to withdraw so if you have a run on the bank you're going to have a hard time they're probably going to fall back to the next person that can be an operator until eventually it falls into a one of one um in theory if you have one honest operator you're good but not really in practice because you have a run on the bank you need a ton of liquidity to be able to pay that and then even if you're honest you might get fall back to the next person so there's still a lot of work to go on it um has a lot of promise

it I think it's maybe been overhyped in some ways so far but there is a lot of promise and some interesting things you can potentially do with it I think a lot of l2s actually want to implement bit VM to bring their s from trustman advis to trustless like we're all very bullish about it but it's a long ways out M and you developed Stacks um long time ago before bit VM so it's also possible to do it that way yeah the stack consensus mechanism recycles proof of work we would like to upgrade our security from being minimized to trustless we're not there we see bit VM as a potential solution okay so let's talk about yield now uh could how can we make Bitcoin

productive um staking reaking also interesting things to to think about that done yeah I mean you know as jua puts it she's a former derivatives Trader from Goldman Sachs built out Ledger X the first uh options exchange for Bitcoin and she used to lead Kraken OTC derivatives desk as she puts it yield is the monetization of tail risk which I thought like puts it in a pretty succinct eloquent way so whenever you see yield there's always some risk or there's a reason higher receiving yield I think I want to highlight that first and foremost because a lot of people think yield is like free know it comes

with risk either protocol risk or uh counterparty risk so yield on top of Bitcoin you know Bitcoin like I mentioned before is a pristine asset in crypto Bitcoin is unanimously the number one asset to be held it's its market cap is larger than everything else combined it's the most liquid and it's the most trustworthy asset in the space in terms of decentralization and the future of the asset set so would people want to use it as collateral or use it for smart contracts I think absolutely and some of that will include getting native yield from Bitcoin native is a weird way to put it but in a yield from Bitcoin so one for example you know you've got protocols like um um oh what's the David C thing um

Babylon chain where you can you you can stake Bitcoin as collateral for a proof of stake chain so Bitcoin can be used to secure a proof of stake Network same with like botanics botanics is a Bitcoin L2 that is essentially you're onchain you're locking up your Bitcoin and that's being used as collateral uh to represent your stake in this L2 and you can earn a yield uh from the activities on that L2 or from the activities from staking or providing Bitcoin at stake for another chain uh there's lots of other ways to earn yield as well there's actually currently n there's some ways to earn yield on bitcoin that exist on the Bitcoin protocol uh you've got uh join join Market where if you provide liquidity for coin joins which are ways to mixes that's a way to mix your coins

you can receive a yield for providing liquidity for someone else to mix their coins or tumble their coins with you so that exists with Bitcoin today so there actually have been some kind of more primitive smart contracts that allow you to earn a yield with your Bitcoin but yeah this topic we could talk about hundreds of way dur and yield but I'll kick it over these two I'm pretty excited about the idea of having an IG layer for Bitcoin Bitcoin is the most secure asset to be restak or re hypo or reused in a way to use for other consensus mechanisms and some of the early work we're doing at trust deschaines is to build out that style of protocol that any form of Bitcoin whether it's Bitcoin on on the L1 or Bitcoin from Cosmos or wbtc or such can all be reallocated to increase the

security model of other Bitcoin l2s it hasn't been done before igen layer is kind of the first approach on the evm world but it makes sense to use the most liquid and most durable chain that exists other things that that should exist on bitcoin that have yet to exist as basic lending markets you should be able to do Bitcoin borrowing and lending in a way onchain where you did not get wrecked by block figh or Celsius that should not ever be a black box and I'm pretty bullish about the opportunity of I can deposit my Bitcoin I can take a loan against it I should never get liquidated if I manage my positions accordingly not aable taxable event for Americans which is critical

for us but the idea of my Home Mortgage or anything like that should be within my Bitcoin collateral hopefully a stable coin I'd love to take it out against a Bitcoin based stable coin perhaps on lightning that would great but these are the things of The Primitives of where yield could be generated that does not exist Bitcoin based stable coin on lightnings you just say that is that I I would love to you thinking about yeah so there are a few proposals out there for that there's tappered assets there is RGB there's lrc 20 there's I think a few others but I think that it's coming um I don't know how soon but I think that it's definitely coming it's the code for

a lot of these is still being put out so it's um a bit of a work in progress but it's almost there um I think there's almost no question that it's going to be coming where you'll have stable coins on L1 and on um lightning I think there will probably be yield producing stable coins as well so a lot of what we're talking about to today is going to be possible in the very near future um how much uh the Bitcoin Community get inspired by ethereum because I I hear a lot of of terms in technology that that directly comes from ethereum so are they copying or improving uh is there anything to add on that I think the way Dan phrased it earlier was

really good that Bitcoin kind of took the approach of use these chains as the testing ground and the things that worked well Bitcoin will take the things that don't work well Bitcoin won't take um now that being said there's a lot of work on bitcoin to actually be able to use some of these things with new OP codes potentially to to enable these but I think that they the developers on bitcoin have generally seen well rollups are working sort of on ethereum potentially we need to bring those over to bitcoin these other things um potentially want to bring over to bitcoin and I think as things start to look like they're working well then potentially they'll be added to bitcoin as well but there's a long ways to go to add a lot of these things I'd say Bitcoin is catching up pretty

drastically to ethereum or salana just last month Bitcoin hit 1 billion transactions ethereum hit 1 billion transactions in 21 salana hit 1 billion transactions in 22 and we're finally creating the right environment that people want to transact on chain with Bitcoin which did not exist and uh I'll throw out a controversial opinion here but maybe ethereum was just a test net for Bitcoin 100% I mean Bitcoin was used to pay for the theum Ico I'll throw out a stat here that most of you probably don't know but there is more trading volume in Bitcoin NFS than ethereum nfts after one year and salana nfts and salana nfts and this

is on one year in a bare market and with really shitty wallets like there's only a couple wallets that support ordinals for Bitcoin like doesn't support it a bunch of the top like Hardware wallets don't support it bit again Bitcoin nft trading volume is larger than ethereum after one year with limited wallet support in a bear because it's luxury it's luxury and also like this is proof though that people often wondered would people want to do defi activities on top of Bitcoin if it was available maybe bitcoiners who hold their Bitcoin don't want to use it for speculative purposes they indeed do and that's what we saw with ordinals so you know some people well most people in this room probably didn't know that and this is like the number one shocking stat that I share

where people's minds are kind of blown that's just the beginning it's only been one year with ordinals and we're just getting started so will Bitcoin become you know absorbable out of the def5 market share I think it is entirely predictable that it will um and we're seeing that already happen we're not talking about what will happen it has already happened and so we're just going to see that momentum continue to grow and um maybe let's talk about VC investment you talk about Babylon last week they announced 70 million fundraising so yeah we see every week's now uh announcement of uh VC's uh investing in uh Bitcoin l2s or season 2 uh Rena you you told me that there are

some VC only specializ on on Bitcoin l2s now in the US I mean I think Dan's a good example of a VC that's only Bitcoin only Bitcoin defi uh not even Bitcoin centralized companies so we would invest in brokerages or exchanges or anything like that we only invest in Bitcoin defi which would be l2s daps and meta protocols uh we're the only peer play Fund in the space that focuses only on bitcoin defi there are others as well like utxo management from uh Bitcoin magazine they sort of pioneered investing in the in the category and a few of the Asian VCS as well some of the Asian VCS are a little bit suspicious though I just spent two weeks in Hong Kong here about a month ago Reena was

out there too a lot of of uh Chinese VCS what they do is they Rebrand themselves they create a new name and they get new names from the the the GPS they'll also scrub their old Investments and just have the Investments That did well so there are several uh kind of like Asian Bitcoin VCS however they weren't before they changed their name and identities and scrub their old Investments so I'm not sure if you can call that pure play or not but there are Bitcoin defi VCS in Asia as well I think it's to the point that every VC has to have a Bitcoin thesis whether they had one from 10 years ago or they have one now it's about time to have one because there is going to be no asset that ever compares

to bitcoin at the end of day and it's really evolving now that you see what we're calling season 2 happening there's a lot more development and platformization of things on bitcoin and I think as the VCS see that they see great opportunities to invest because you obviously want to be on the best chain that you can be and Bitcoin is that so as the opportunities open up to invest and they start to see more things being built it's an exciting world to be in and I think to Arena's Point as well uh when I first started cutting Angel checks in the Bitcoin defi category and then in January started to paper up my fund this was a very controversial opinion to have Bitcoin defi was not sexy it was the opposite of that people

were like that's impossible I don't believe that's ever going to be a thing even though glamorous now it's glamorous yes so in February at Satoshi Roundtable the outcome of that all that all the Talking between crypto Executives that was the shelling point that changed the trajectory of Bitcoin defi the week after that that's when Bitcoin l2s that narrative became hot um traditionally you know like in the Bitcoin defi category you had very few investors uh you had after the Bitcoin L2 excitement in February you had panta you had all the the large crypto VCS all start to make their their Bitcoin defi play that's huge they have most the money in the space and them allocating I

think it's a strong signal to the market that something's real here what's really interesting and also kind of sad about the Bitcoin defi season 2 is that the first wave of Bitcoin VCS almost none of them have invested in season 2 and they will likely lose out on the largest Capital like the largest uh amount of capital appreciation ever to occur in crypto uh due to dogmatism around uh their purity so it's really interesting it's very sad as well that the Bitcoin original Bitcoin VCS will miss out on this um also the really big VCS they're just now putting their toes in the water but they'll probably you know Yello in here in about six to 12 months when the

market gets super hot you know it's a great opportunity to do a Bitcoin Dow and crowdfund there there we go yeah it's uh you know it's funny with seeing Bitcoin defi emerge as a category because Bitcoin Max hate it and ethereum Maxis hate it so it's like this it's hated from both worlds and I love trades like that because if you looked at it like Reena and I have for years and and Kevin you see real things happening and all you ever had to do is just look at the blockchain just look at what's happening on the blockchain go and meet with developers see what they're building and so it was one of the easiest trades I've ever seen in my life where it's all you had to do is pay attention I love that Dan brings up developers because this is the first time from the recent elect Capital

report that we've had more Bitcoin developers whether L1 or L2 than maybe the 2010 era and when you think about developers they don't really care about what they're building so long as they believe in it and have Pro have kind of a sense of conviction that this is going to take off um a lot of Bitcoin L2 is basically get to this argument token no token and people kind of f shy away but this current market of developers are building real products build dabs on bitcoin coming back to it from the mindset of Bitcoin was my first asset I ever bought I ignored it for a decade and now I'm coming back to build with it and that transaction activity and that

developer increased activity is really showing the market of this is why you need to invest back in all right so for the last few minutes what's next so what are you excited about maybe some new new new technology that we can inate from other blockchain or um what what's uh exciting for you maybe last last word I mean something like ZK rollups would be really interesting I think it's probably quite a ways away um but I think something like that that helps scale um Bitcoin with with privacy would be quite interesting um I think that adding op CV APO anything like that would be really cool but I'm guessing

that both those are still a ways away there still seems to be a lot of contention um on really any Covenant proposal because there's so many options so I think there's a lot that's potentially really interesting but a lot that still is under active discussion and will take a while before it to actually happen I think for me a couple things one is bringing back more privacy on chain so I would love to see a Bitcoin tumbler come back again I think you should fundamentally have the right to use your Bitcoin in a way that maintains privacy and um it's a challenge in America but I would love to see uh bring back privacy to bitcoin that's something I'm pretty bullish about and then the new crop of

consumer facing apps um more and more people are realizing that Bitcoin is more than just an asset but actually to use the chain um ordinals to me really stood out because you're it's the first kind of instance that you can treat the Bitcoin blockchain as your AWS or your iCloud or whatever it may be because you can have file storage and it's the long as you run your node it will continue to exist and no one can take that away from you and so I believe that there will be more and more depths kind of built with that mindset I mean Bitcoin defi here is going to be the biggest opportunity ever in crypto Bitcoin is larger than everything else combined if people use that available Capital to go speculate

on other assets like nfts or other tokens that Market's going to be absolutely massive so I think a lot of people are sleeping on this and for me I woke up a couple years ago and I was like this is going to to be a big thing um so I can't stress enough that you should at least just take a look at it go explore take a look at it start to play around with it Go interact with some of these um ordinals and whatnot and check out how these protocols work it's interesting so it's it's worth your time to check it out I think something that we didn't really explore in this conversation but I do find it interesting so uh you know ordinals represents ordering Theory so it's the idea that we all wear when we look at the Bitcoin blockchain we're all wearing

the same augmented reality glasses with our own software that's basically the ordinal software it's our own subjective interpretation of activity happening on bitcoin and we then create this new layer on top of Bitcoin that we subjectively believe in uh I like to call these meta protocols so basically with ordinals you have for example like brc2 runes you probably heard about runes that was a exciting new meta protocol developed I think there's a lot more exploration to be had there so I think the meta protocol surface area or not an L2 but essentially if we look at Bitcoin activ nl1 and add new values to that I think that that space is that design space is very underexplored So Meta protocols I think will be a bigger

part of the conversation over the next couple years all right thank you so we have a few more minutes for question from the audience if uh if you have some I see yeah I mean it is too complex um when we

started Light spark we went around talked to a bunch of exchanges and other companies that either hadn't implemented lightning or had gone away from it and there was a very common refrain that it was too complex and that was a big part of why they didn't want to do it or why they hadn't done it they needed teams full-time to manage that um the concepts of it are vastly different than any other L2 or L1 um so it is hard to actually reason about and figure out how to work well that's where at light spark were're trying to come in we're trying to make it so that it's like a stripelike interface where just a few lines of code you're able to get it up and running you have it work well you don't have to worry about anything under the hood you don't worry about inbound

liquidity you don't worry about channels anything like that um we abstract all that way but I think that there's a lot more that needs to happen on Lightning to make it more intuitive and to make it into something that companies can easily integrate with and build on I mean I think we're we're trending in the right direction there's a lot more work to do but I think we're trending in the right direction all right last question maybe yes no all right so thank you very much for the panel and uh see you next time