Bitcoin and Beyond EP5: BitVM, OPCAT, and The Evolution of Bitcoin

Transcript

[Music] [Music] [Music] welcome back to bitcoin and Beyond today we have Carson monk from cartez with the road to bitcoin as a world Cloud welcome in um thank you yeah s i here to can like talk to you about

uh how like see the vot to of Bitcoin as a world Cloud because it's kind of like a made of a BND Ro to get and what I'm trying to do with this presentation is to kind of educate about how does the RO had look like uh why is Bitcoin for example that could be this into theerum and basically trying to make sort of re like tell little bit about how uh this direction are let's say verifiable Computing a Bic M go so the first thing to kind of like notice about Bitcoin is that that it's it's a little bit it's comparable to a developing

country right like what we're talking about say Place some place in Africa that's usually talking about that that well all other countries are more advanced and uh but if you're looking at for PR like Kenya that what they have been able to is skip over all these things like let say Road and istn and DSL I can't jump straight to come like 4G te instead and and what people call it is this thing called beep basically that that it's possible to kind like actual wait at the and bu not let's say for examp go straight to for Sola uh SK essentially skiping it fa less efficient more expensive and more pric Technologies and industries that

kind of most straight to Advanced ones and had Bitcoin was a little bit like this because well etheria is obviously at the moment the more advanced one but we have also taken quite a lot of uh let's say failed Technologies failed Ro launch has failed and lots of billions has lost in issue different uh security issues and so on uh and this is completely from a technological point of view but it's not necess s bad thing that and say Bitcoin is a bit of a developing country at the moment because I see that kind of like if you start thinking about Bitcoin as a platform basically they us to will skip over some of the more expensive mistakes we've had because we in the century to

some extent avoids speeding them and for example let's say replicating State let's say the lightning work that work we don't have to repeat plasma we to replicate uh do having centralized sequences move straight to distribut sequences like expressor for example and it act might actually be that from techological a let say use case kind of view with that it might be in that Bitcoin it becom since a the better platform to some extent because we don't need to kind of keep on up package around for the same on now the the problem is a little bit b um that it has been really really

difficult uh up to now uh to have anything C I get the soil that Bitcoin is because Bitcoin script has been very uh let's say a lot of upour been removed a lot of kind like handy think that would have been admitted to say much more possibly Express certain conditions that uh different let's say uh different Technologies could use has kind of been disabled in a bit script and that's a bit of a conservative approach to kind of like changing the environment of uh Bitcoin to hard fo uh or soft forx for that matter and until this bit thing came about and bigfm is basically a

let's say a design pattern to make it possible support to do some degree of this off chain computation uh it was basically seemed almost impossible to cing that say the lightning Network at is and uh this was because basically what bitan brought was this thing that that him almost impossible to see in that be have to spawn on this party or setk off chain competation uh making an on Ball and basically what happened with BM was that because of that signatures when they Ed commitments and challenge game and so on that b possible for us to do the off corations and also because of kind like the more creative things that

is uh being done in uh the bit VM restant uh and on a things like that compan approachable to people uh contributing to bitcoin scri or for example let say they may a to recomend new bit of has furance uh both Blake tree and shat 56 in bit scripts at actually naing doing actual work called tree proof imidation which basically was it possible before um in Bitcoin script and also on Cur mathematics uh etc etc so about like opening up that that suddenly C actually should try to do something useful with and Bitcoin

script um um how how much do you think uh the mindset of like the Bitcoin Community let has played a part into this kind of state of things as they are like tree bit VM well my say the same uh conspirator theory is that this whole let's say conservative approach to bitcoin is basically SI up uh by intelligence services to make sure the Bitcoin can't grow uh because it basically complet the let's say blocking any kind of like Innovation happening of course Bitcoin is to be stable volum and let's say not let's say hand hasn't hly uh but let's say things by uh being

able to multiply through in for putting through values to go that uh shouldn't let's say topple entire network um so I think B has at the Pary behind has succeeded exactly because it's essential permission that's like there's nobody who could do anything to stop it essential uh other than let's say inabilities of the technology itself cool sounds right I uh the CIA embedded Bitcoin Theory resurges once again but I think it's also interesting how it all happened because basically

the why any of these of dis say because basically s she panicked and he thought to do something that was going to take down at the network at this kind of like this Pano that and B up Coke can destroy the network like to some extent let's say appeared from sat himself at might be then after a couple of years I'm experience I said oh this was actually not as scary as I thought um so yeah might be that uh said that that F might have been very different if that say say about a couple more years but to together I continue a little bit uh like thing B talk about like s we can uh

we can grow things and like like there's a couple of things that is in let's say very straightforward hand and things like like from up say if I want to get say the block hash of a previous uh hash uh of a Bitcoin block or ethereum block and very straightforward to do TBM but no such fam is can like Poss B in sign B script and what is k m challenge at the moment is that that even if we're it doesn't mean that let's say that we can run an En modation on bitcoin it it is more like that that we can Max get it working with

let's say do me 16 or loock verification uh speak basically otherwise the let's say the the time to kind of like optimistically settle the result of the compation into uh Bitcoin is basically let's say way TR but even if we have of competation uh it is only as that say as good as the underlied layer it turns up because like the underlied layer which is Bitcoin script has to have access into one way or the other or the program has access to information that kind like restrict the stuff it's being talked about right so um if let's say I want to make a set kit proof about something that happened

in the Bitcoin chain uh which essentially means go back in history and Bitcoin and cash I need something that kind of like tells me borders to latest state of Bitcoin and that's not possible Bitcoin crypto so there um one solution for example had been that uh one the of of BM no is also hman in the past is been called SN which is basically a way to using a single set Gap proof to prove that um let's say what's the state of the Bitcoin chain uh but basically say Computing the proof of work and uh Isen up but a small proof uh that basically

tells and that they Pro the entire history of Bitcoin then the challenge here is that that it's not just about us uh verify let's say have all up computation inside Hask proof that we then mify Bitcoin is also about the I need to link to the base layer and find out what's the truth here so uh on theor that something that's much easier to do um there's a lot of discussion going on about uh the soft folks like upcat upcat who is like the could up code uh a sh to concate two values together and the reason why this one is so important

especially for uh the say verification or so on is because uh when you're doing a mer Merle treat R verification like basically you have that say m not sitting up here and you have a value sitting down you have the tree you can like pass a bunch of values together that at every single step you kind of like pair them together and then hash them uh had then basically make sure kind of like they end up in the Top Value which is to M and if she had M tree verification in D she kind of verify that get s in a m tree and that includes LLY things like let's say Bitcoin itself C because they also use mil trees kind like describe being uh uh the state of it and so on uh they will

allow people basically to to go on kind more interspect the block BL to you but also in abl the B script to to extend uh Beyond his capabilities because now instead of let's say computer human thing we can for examp will make a big uh look up table for examp saying that let's say um let's say that four divided four divided by one is four uh past the basically past the proof that let the be so of this uh this uh up code is this so basically we Step Beyond uh the difficult parts of uh that were

different the difficult dur bit conscript and there's other initiatives uh like I think uh CTV and a couple other ones that I just out there that could kind of make this Bitcoin uh so uh be in a better state but basically we don't know at this particular point which one will get true and uh the TR War so basically we stuck with work could be done complet perion thisly uh which at is the moment is bit VM the variance of BVM there also bitm X and bitv Bor five at whatever all like verion St is talk there and this K like like like for like what is the PO away like like

we're really not that sure about how well these uh technologies will grow in the current world because as we found up with this on a Gess that uh we kind of didn't know about uh when uh we get to start doing the say well tools there's very little amount of tooling aable uh things are very risky and of course as we've been seeing in the space let say that investors might want people to come like go ahead and have launch maybe before that they see then something is cly ready so we might add up in a situation where people looks lot of money because they essentially stock

on top of bit they do was Rock them funds and uh post them near this particular quarantine I don't think that the stability off bom the will be happening on any time to a year work let's say uh the average given technical user can really trust that his that say billion uh US dollars worth of bitcoin is safe on these layer toos because I people are try attack them basically on hour to double click on some of the uh op cats St this is um a Mech that would allow uh some combinations of Valu one of which would be uh like the resolution

of Merkel trees and so like a lot of that is happening on on ethereum and and you sort of already alluded to how ethereum is like this experimentation field and anything that works we can incorporate into Bitcoin after it's tried and true so there's like there two things going on there's the there's the uh the storage space the like very small amount of data that we can put into a Bitcoin block I believe it's only four mechs and then there's the the succinctness of a ZK proof and how like we can pack a lot of information into a really small proof and so is this sort

of like you know these these two things have been coming have been going along in parallel is this sort of like a like a perfect marriage between the two of the sness property of ZK proofs what if ZK proof of say a Merkle rout be able to bit into a Bitcoin block is it is it succinct enough for that 4 megabyte so so that that's at least what the claim is up right uh but um uh uh the point about why is that that we're just basically running F say like how we Bas B ration like find it the middle point where it just re things and so on it because basically um uh etherum

there's this thing that called the CH clock uh basically that that because we worried about censorship of the blockchain that we can't like we say in the world it's it's it's up to a week that somebody get sensor right and the problem is that that this information about time is come like uh let's say uh time time stamping and can like be able to say that well I started out this point this clock I then make roves and this game maximum it takes a week uh is basically not possible on bitcoin so uh with bit VM one what we calculated went uh to to C guys what basically that it would take

40 weeks uh to SLE and optimistic Set ification uh I think the not data that can be put at rcoin is okay for this stuff because it's like a stock pool it's like that big uh but let's say where the exact boundary is is is that I'm not sure that at this particular Point time we have enough experimental resols from these solutions to be the predict about how this is going to work out in practice which is why can like a little bit worried about that that it might actually be that that me we canion things a little too much and uh fix blowing up to quickly and you're saying it's 40 weeks right now but with OP cat

it would become a shorter dispute resolution confer yeah so this is the thing I don't think upap fixes that part right so uh we bit V M2 uh basically it comes kind of like a one Sho thing instead uh because uh essentially what is being forced to be posted to the change car or the BT States of uh computation which tricks of course have been then they can be done a week and that's why their focus can be in two because it has much more properties like this but opcat itself does not fix uh the dispute T but it might make it easier to implement asset K verify B conscript directly

but nobody knows because nobody has done it and that's very important because without that then you can't have like uh the uh the bridge between these l2s and l1s and so you can't really effectively have real rollups see about are waiting for bit DM basically like all the real wups that are posting D into Bitcoin are waiting for bit BM to really be able to be like full functionality if you will or at least like functionally correct from a technical Observer point of view and then waiting for the Z verifier right that that's the part that they need in order

to establish this uh two-way bridge between L1 and L2 and and like Ed saying become a real rollup yeah and also it's wor no dat that that's just two po here I right because in the interial we can quite read from the underly blockchain but Bitcoin is actually difficult to do that in in offchain computation ping back um is in general also about kind like like what which coins I'm going to trying to PCH back and how much St do need to do it and as I said I don't think we have enough experimental data at this point like you have seen how it will work out in practice but uh it's a little bit like like we have have

finally found something that that fertiliz soil just enough but we complet show we go in a jet so how kind of like we be on a little bit to kind of like talk about what we kind of like has been changed to bitcoin car since I etherum because let's say back in 2016 uh let's say when for example I remember right here here like uh uh let's say hium for example things like making an optimistic verification game was very very hot uh people like trit adum kind of like

approaching for very very kind complex was verification uh and lat on the things became much more let's say straight forward kind why understood how you make a working verification game and a virtual machine forward and those kind of things and one of the things that uh C wi project I work with uh that was introducing for example that you could do a modification G based on risk five uh and optimism but did uh moving away let's say the existing itum ification from uh was to me instead uh and Technologies like Risk

Zer L has also made it possible to do verification of um set proof and fighting these things in a very way where let's say a way where it's clear to everybody who comes that trust that this setk proof is let's say correctly implemented for example compared to let's say before where people were had uh handwriting circuits uh to actually Implement these things this also why for example project flx has been able to execute so quickly on their pration because the moment that the have work set care verifier that they can basically take the outp of Zer stuff uh ebm some W or some Ty that are

sent ebm I think they're calling or into this proof meis and ending up with a let's say a solution that is known to pretty much work and provided let's say in on life verification mechanism works correctly um and another thing that has kind like changed uh also made to some extent he's here for uh for Bitcoin is that thinks let's say that FS like these think Primitives on bitcoin for examp those think like B chain I think it's called onor with I kind like makes a lot easier to launch good enough like high security networks on top of these layer ones without that fact that you need

to for s etherum has also become pled by this concept of data availability and it was very confusing to many people kind of like maybe even misunderstood to on the implication of it and now that we have things like prot shouting and uh more like data publishing as the member that we're using for this uh that for Celestia expressor is using it's wor all tangible to some extent P entering it bitco space to Res about data avilability and making that from understand that the context on bitcoin uh because uh one of the Twitter have spad recently about bitm Bitcoin L2 is

that actually posting uh posting data through Bitcoin player one is super super expensive but if we can kind attach to say uh um data build L to it that is let's say secure enough for those things it might actually be good enough uh has slow ask let's say the computation mariz yeah um real quick is that trade-off worth it for you in the uh like in the landscape of Bitcoin it seems like it's so obviously worth it for like a data go perspective of like just getting that actual like cheap uh transaction data and faster finality and

things compared to kind of like waiting for Bitcoin I seeing how much it costs and just the the the speed but then versus something like in ethereum it's like it it it becomes less obvious uh into what using like a like a a Celestia or something um yeah like how do you think about that from from the Bitcoin perspective like is that kind of how you General you as well or different perspec I think that that basically like um it really comes down to like oh I should get to this part a little bit later on why I come like like see that that let's say that fig M might look a little bit differently because it it comes down to where what is on the like security that you're bong in these

potential million rollups that you're running on top of it right because um that will of course become like varying degrees uh let's say security that you might need for these competation like like more like sequencing together like I think that that a lot of the thing that's happening at the moment for examp an expresso bun like sequence of Market places might potentially apply to something like Bitcoin as well because it might be that some things let's say would be perfectly fine kind like s last datail or Bitcoin uh but uh the let's say the bridging and so on between these that are just sitting on datability on

bitcoin and then uh this s you have change and might be let's say using uh something like data meability it kind of like like let's say becomes a little more play into further outb go in this space in my opinion so of course there's people that want complete uh let's say everything has to be layer one and so on but I mean Bitcoin has to be useful as well as the technology for people can use it and I think that basically people will accept the potential rest this or accept that the security is good enough for Lear these things um as said also put SE one to you that like that that some of these Technologies by back

should be okay enough for on people as long as the fees are not enough and to risk is not all but it's still no that I know how to play out which kind of like um what I'm going to get it to here next so um that the thing is that that right now we we looking between like and deos for months a very healthy discussion to uh let's say culture of by Char like to bit M build does and so on C CH like ups and Bitcoin uh and of course it's nice to talk about kind like words and these things are very easy to always say but kind like the moment that what of we have actual test main that's of these

things that we can attack uh our stress testem uh it's really difficult to really say but uh they will act like in practice and this is one thing that I I liked about B and just to death first and for must try things I think that act say seems to work and basing on that because like there's Alternatives out there but nobody is really um is really the actual H effect that actual has that say one in COD uh and we are still the hly days of this and the problem was a little bit like many of the Bitcoin discussions about academic and on theal we have come of with on already that actual anual life

systems happen and that's somewhat a good culture of disclosures or uh and so while right now uh let's say there's bit of let's say unhealthy almost the Serio and at H attack and bitco going going on for example let say the discussions about uh bit VM versus capap VM typ resource and so on and I think that basically as we get further this we that debate culture into kind of like practical discussion about kind of implementation Behavior uh because essentially they to and giant hard they just irresistible for PL TI can of try quick so one like like like theate think

that we do maybe in like we assume that DM like inly in Jon and all on and basically um uh one things like this API and this interface specifi it's more like encoding Lea incidents the call data and so on and in operting systems uh which is where I'm origin some actually we all talk about ucation by their inces uh which just got interace on L level like let's say on the actual Smart Level for example it

might be that that can say a smart contract can be written in something like SL VM and so on using it as Medi but what the consumer wasn't using like the actual API is it's pretty much still the same on the cons consumer Mar but and just because we have a lot of infastructure out built around TVM what they actually what C actually interaction is sing rpcs and data space that can beated and uh we are seeing that stable decentralized exchange and just and so on H the will sell need to inherit actual smart contract Cod

the with it because course can somewhat be trival M Anis that even maybe in that more readable and audable way and as regard mov be on to this so sequence sh sequence the market with roll ups it might actually be a good opportunity to for look Le coach to about in relation to bitcoin it basically means that that um we might have let's say in more opportunity to exter the like how VMS addressed on the thing in Bitcoin and we don't need to kind like just take the VM and try to

stop it on top of Bitcoin that might actually be that they POs to do a little bit of more Fresh Start actually get things to be more stainable and better than doubt yeah we uh we have uh discussion with M who's building the fbm on top of Bitcoin and so uh so your perspective is that uh building on top of Bitcoin juice Builders uh kind of a clean sleep and they can they can uh potentially improve upon some of the designs in ethereum gland uh because there's not as much uh like motor vendor locking around the evf yeah and also adding to the point

that Bitcoin must basically do not like it might different from so why why should to take the and okay so this is kind of like this gets a little more that say speculative at this particular point that that I think that instead of let's say seeing let's say an evbm sitting on top of uh coin as a PO I think we more see because of the difficulties and the need for let's say managing these coins that are setting on they one and so on at INF fet ability and Bridge power so on it becomes all like a like a layer without fre VM to some extent it's basically

more like let's say Bitcoin tic tic s and a BM that basically is a setk marifi up code essentially uh something that probably let a written some like this zero fairly straightforward kind understand that it actually bre they work correctly and it can maybe compar not something to for the B off rate which is basally the aggregation and because it pro of a bunch of things like U has been doing and based of the S then like graph 16 say proof on bitcoin because I think that that when it comes true Bitcoin simpong and more lool uh versus many different kingdoms of let's

say verified preaching in this particular case and might play out better at Bitcoin because of the complexity of doing this correctly uh because essentially what will happen is that that that we'll probably register more like let say that this this this coin out La this state transition function that takes a c blocks to dat milk the up like that and uh like uh basically letting dond and making the proof that this uh this car can be moved around under there too so I think that will probably see that that that things that would typically be maybe still cou years ahead uh because

an established that work for monop man super chain to my nature when say arrive earlier here this kind like more could say simplified and that's imp pure SE AGG and sequenced Mana a Bitcoin because B there's a fresh SP we don't need to worry about that there's all being Bops out down um and basically once that St basally anything can be laying on top of it which is kind of like what to M so is that like a a a layer 1.5 yeah I think that that's fair way I'm saying somewhere in between the say data availability and aggregation uh it might be even like let's say Clos some

find let's say uh but I think that that that there's a possibility to kind like use the fact that become say easily because the verify second proofs uh I kind of sequen these things together OU change like way that will probably be doing things bit with I mean the biggest vo uh do things and said can be that compl the bypass delimitations of the and similarity from bit script where by passing the limitations of bit con script on theing for the hearing sing on top of it that would be impossible

otherwise to write a bit conp yes it's kind of like the same idea as like these like proof aggregation layers where you can and get kind of tying to that shared sequencing concept as well um so it's like okay so Bitcoin is maybe not not going to be like the B the same base layer as like ethereum is to rollups but maybe we get this base layer like just ever so slightly if you will on top of it which allows then to facilitate more of a ecosystem of of rollups similar to that of of uh sett layers which have much more smart contract functionality yeah and I I think it's also worth note as like

seeing that say that dantey was the M chance play him out when then okay so I want data availability plus the single set veryyy like uh and completely let say how the question say like this might actually be S can be a co uh this particular case so how just like like repeating be touching about but because of this kind model about because it pro rate it becomes much more possible to make arguments about these state state transition functions of ment

changed and sequence and verify together uh I also believe that we'll be seen things like notification about the police us eventually um and because of uh because at least I'm goly believe the F have chain so i' scroll up so them recall them uh there will be very much less benefit for the syap chain to kind of let's say secure the and know to subcribe to complexities ofm and you open the door to kind of more general purpose VMS for the E SW lamp such as Wason or BMS running uh fessi it might also be uh as I mentioned before more Baker Community has well to

run something and let say let's getum and drink uh and uh suggest is five virtual machines for example because it's actually much more defined it's something that uh even the people buil on it um and also kind like to make skipping over dbm because me we don't actually need it to really get a successful uh successful uh good using experience out that this so does like the merge mining like uh evm rollup type of idea uh or does that merge mining idea kind of

resonate with you or is it just or is is that like Edge Cas or you know maybe can elaborate more on that design philosophy that you have with regards to just not using uo so so I think it it's more lo lines of that that they are certain things that let's say even H set K and so on that that make the much more difficult true that's a pro so as well like see this uh um how is sen to with Bitcoin is that that I mean did they Bitcoin is got like two in security maximalist and also some very conservative so having something

that's very defined and i' say maybe has better tooling at all I should be that's any more applicable to that but that other day it might be that some people run drugs some to was and so on but like uh the efficiency of uh the cost and let say the structure the the pce of innovation might actually be much quicker if at say MBM for this stuff because in the other day it's a new set of people new community uh he practices and have something where do require high priest to know dbm can I understand something might actually help developing Bitcoin in a better Direction than it%

Mar Goa and and honestly I'm not sure that the developer community of the theing evm would really want to even come over and build maybe they would but I thought there's there's there's plenty of problems to be solved still yeah well well it isic about the of capital um and as you see in our projects like they go to now they're going to be let say doing datability for the Bitcoin do Bitcoin Bitcoin they two and so on and I I think that that I'm not the sure people they they fully have understand what they gotten themselves into sometimes uh because it's still very much an early and my discussion with here has

thought that we don't actually really how B coel to Sho looks like uh it might very well be that we fight that that uh without find out C the S is basically impossible it might be find out that practice really something by but kind of introspect the CH it might be that that we find out that that in order to R successful we to use things like uh be use itan valid reating those kind of things to make it much more practical to let's say one for well billions of f maps running on us uh that are based on Larks and we don't actually know if the hassles of

Bitcoin will actually show our cop so much that essentially it's not going to matter in the long term uh and maybe it's the solution as toly tie these two different types of security and like crer and Bitcoin together at that so these rups are basically a combination of these two that's pretty much it for this yeah that's um some interesting stuff um so so if you had to pinked out an end vision of like what a year from now looks like what would you sa for the bit

Queen will up space or the bit Queen scaring space I think that what what's happening right now is is canting about what will happen first right uh because there's a lot of uh bit TR and claim that they are Bas ban and there suddenly and there turns out that just Bas multi multi and I think the first thing I see is uh project the BL taking lot of f with it and I think that's the first one we got to see uh then there will be things that probably let's say emerge in a more tested Manner and more like a port ball

where it's a little more easier to reason that the fronts are safe uh we will'll probably be seeing much stronger emphasis just like we see with eled andum uh there also great projects out there like documenting Bitcoin rollups and S kind like Elation so help people guide this this thatc um we will probably see uh theologist Service uh thing uh be play yourself in bitco and it already is because there's a project May to something that basically exactly the same provider or technology um and I'm I'm pretty sure that we'll see a lot more uh very T and very advo

discussions happening this space but let's see who actual say comes out on the other side and or becomes but say in theologies is because now it's not just a few people can I designed of this technology because tools which syk has approved so much uh the tools for doing things Bitcoin improved it's much more that and how we actually do these things so to this pce of invation Might C completely Le basically makes sense um I just want to play reductionist for a moment like trying of boil down like really what's moving the needle here from talking to a lot of these Bitcoin l2s we've heard that for

them to be safe and stable and decentralized Trust minimized they need bit VM and what bit VM needs is a ZK verifier to run between these values and for bit VM to get that it needs opat or something like that in order to have the uh mathematical power of uh calculating and hashing together veral proofs and essentially like verifying ZK ZK proofs at the Bas layer um and if we get if we get so is there something that you know

something that op cat depends on or is that pretty much like the end all be all if we get that then we get B bit VM and if we get bit VM then we get stable Bitcoin rups yeah so so I think that that's kind of where the bit of the dis let's say disagreement and the Bitcoin space is at on because uh bitm is meant to work on the existing Bitcoin right some people claim that uh the bridging of some kind of the bridging of some kind of completely conjured up concept of what they think bit and bridging is require that b basically on safe uh for certain

settings and and the difference for bit depending on like which bit because that's also good question this particular case uh for with in terms of upcat but upcat makes it easy is that we don't need to job through a lot of Hoops do the same thing right so basically the scripture go smaller the input data are smaller those are B it's more like get optimization for right but uh some people are claiming that he need upcat in order to be safe and I'm not so completely sure I think that is upcat and more introspection up Cod that you need to really really

really be safe and B things watch let's let's say the F fragile but the big PM Concept in terms of uh let's say uh and saying setk coins and so on might actually be safe but I that there's a lot of controversy out there that has turned rather toxic don't think it was Happ on very well or presented very well by some of the participants in that discussion okay okay so there's some people that are arguing that bit VM is safe as it is as Bitcoin stands now but uh but but also just SC like Mark that's bit VM which is offchain computation then that's bit VM briding

that's two different things yeah one of them is at the bridge and one of them is the off citation got it got it okay and so um like let's say we bring in like a fresh new VM and I I think what what most of these Bitcoin l2s and I might be wrong but I think what people for the most part are looking at bit VM as the bridge in in order to enable these Bitcoin l2s that have arbitrary VM execution environments and so is that is the bridge part safe as it is or does it need op cat or does it need op cat for even more yeah so this is the thing that that that my stance here is that this is a

damn academic cation until we have actual the same Temptations we can try to attach right because people can say him about like how things will play out but uh until we can demonstrate a concrete intact that that is impossable to things without us having cat it doesn't exist in my opinion so at the point where these Bridges actually start to exist in code or anything like that then we can actually see is it actually is the actual vehicle can makes sense then the incentives are there to actually test the the validity and the the soundness of the bridge yeah

so so that's also about to said to me something like opcat has been enabled on bitcoin cash uh if you think it's unsafe you can go short Point cash and try to press it uh up SP Bol in uh then they quit uh side chain that I think block stream is what be work on it's available on the test that at the moment uh for people get test out and check can the actually do the things they hope to do uh if you think that they we don't need up uh that you can contribute to B VMS exist at the moment or make a that uses cut especially about getting in there get make experiment

attack because in the end of the day these a big hard part to tweaking my try to do something with and that's what kind of drives the sit to K yep and and just like etherum is that uh like more developing more Innovative country that experiments on behalf of Bitcoin it's good to know that Bitcoin cash has op cat functioning live and there are there hasn't been any attack Vector exploited on bitcoin cash yet where maybe there would be that that giant py pot for someone to come and take uh if not attack Factor would there yeah because obviously like like many of the kind like the technical Bitcoin people really don't like let saying Bitcoin cash and Bitcoin SB and do club

that fund right so you would kind of like expected at least to exploited this area already if it was unsafe right yeah that that's a good point that is bullish op cat and uh bit V awesome man yeah just uh one last thing kirson on the um on the the core property of Bitcoin like kind of separating the the asset from the network like do you ever just feel like what's going on in this Bitcoin scaling space is almost like fighting extremely uphill seeing how like the entire point of Bitcoin as a as an asset is to be extremely uh you know like like like to have properties of of

hardness and so like at what point at at what point is trying to create more transaction fees um kind of counterintuitive to the Bitcoin asset Itself by like doing these changes in things yeah so so I think the reason why bitv became so interesting to many was because the H they happened recently and you have to remember that it cost something to maintain over the security for Bitcoin point and by having more things that how like actually leverage the network and settle into it pay transaction fees to miners in this particular case uh you are actually helping secure the network uh we also

seen this with that say with with uh uh etherium that active Fe obiously help andv for that matter help to contribute to people cont to be incur to bitcoin to do on this particular case and I think that making bcoin more useful is is fine but also there's a point where I was listening to a podcast recently where where somebody was saying that oh if you to upat uh he will completely change throughout the incentive model of Bitcoin and will take down thatw workk I'm just like scientist sitting down like how can uh putting two vales together that are probably let say

Limited and and verified links and so on and put it those two together how could that completely change the economics of Bitcoin in the worst Direction I don't understand that digical arguments and that's why I'm saying I think it's a s up that Bitcoin is so conservative because if this stuff has existed and B could have not been that uh limited over time I think that uh P would not necess to exist if we had not to see with things back end yeah well and I realized we're over time so just real quick is is there any evidence as to why Satoshi chose to

remove those OP codes in the first place I think she wasn't basically like he wasn't sure what was causing it right I he basically pulled out a a thing and uh I guess the pur for healthware uh and basically never in Neil again so mysterious yeah thanks car yeah it was a pleasure thanks thanks for coming on man